S01.E04: King of the Narrow Sea

[SoWindsor]

The chemistry between Daemon and Rhaynera is really intense. Matt Smith, while not particularly attractive, has so much sex appeal. 
 

[Constantinople]

I wonder if we'll ever find out what happened to the Blackwood kid. Drawing your sword in the heir's presence is about as big a no no as possible, even if he was responding to the other guy's provocation. He should be swinging from a rope by now.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Constantinople

[Stardancer Supreme]

42 minutes ago, ursula said:

Something that I don't think the episode explained, but if Daemon's wife has died, why does Viserys object to Daemon and Rhaenyra marrying? Isn't that literally their custom (Viserys is the child and grand-child of two brother-sister marriages, and his wife and great love was his first cousin) to keep their blood pure? 

Daemon's legal wife isn't dead; she's living in the Vale with her family. 

Viserys seems to be the Targaryen who went against the grain; it just so happened that Aemma, being the great love of his life, was also his cousin. In tonight's episode, he describes himself as not the favorite child of his mother because he was not a great warrior like Targaryens are expected to be.  All he wanted to do was create his models in peace until he was pushed into being King.  In regards to Rhaenyra, if it was any other close relative in the family other than his bratty little brother, Viserys may have considered it. Come to think of it, are there any more Targaryens around besides Rhaenys, Viserys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra?

Edited September 12, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[MrWhyt]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I wonder if we'll ever find out what happened to the Blackwood kid. Drawing your sword in the here's presence is about as big a no no as possible, even if he was responding to the other guy's provocation. He should be swinging from a rope by now.

and that was the day Ser Loudmouth of House Asshole fucked around and found out.

[PurpleTentacle]

Good for little lordling Blackwood for ripping that bully a new one... literally.

Rhaenyra so horned up by her uncle that she needs some dick, stat. Will any dick do? Not sure. But of course Sir Hunksalot's is prefered anyway.

Queen does believe Rhaenyra that she didn't fuck Daemon. Which is true enough. But telling the king that Rhaenyra is still a virgin. Well that's a wrong conclusion you came to on your own there, Missy.

The king doesn't really seem to believe it, since he had a Maester bring her some abortion tea. Maybe Rhaenyra should tell him the truth, to at least make sure her father blieves that she didn't fuck her uncle. But that could adversely effect Sir Hunksalot's health, so maybe not that good of an idea afterall.

[snickers]

40 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Speaking of which: Daemon might be a self-serving, arrogant psychopath who will screw anyone over to accomplish his goals, but look at him being one of the few in Westeros to point out that women can get pleasure from sex as well and point out the hypocrisy of how guys like him and Viserys can whore around with no consequence, but a woman like Rhaenyra gets shamed because of it.  I guess what I'm saying is that he's actually an enlightened self-serving, arrogant psychopath who will screw anyone over to accomplish his goals!  Things are really dire in Westeros when he's the closet to a male character being a feminist...

Exactly-I guess one can could call Jon Snow a feminist in a Westeros world--but he declined as the seasons went on, hopefully that doesn't happen with this character

As for the Uncle/Niece brothel scene....for some reason this didn't disgust me as much as the twincest did.....perhaps it's the GOT effect? a conditioned response to incest 🤨 Or maybe its what others have said, the two actors have pretty intense chemistry.

But the  best part of the episode-Otto fired!!!!!!!

Edited September 12, 2022 by snickers

[Stardancer Supreme]

23 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

The chemistry between Daemon and Rhaynera is really intense. Matt Smith, while not particularly attractive, has so much sex appeal. 
 

That's what I liked about his casting as Daemon.  All the fanfics about GOT portrayed the Targaryen men as impossibly handsome white haired Adonis-like specimens who rode dragons and snatched all the women. Any family that practices inbreeding on purpose to keep a magic ablility intact will not look anything like sexy male models.  Matt Smith is the perfect example of a powerful man with unconventional features. To be honest, HotD probably shouldn't have made Ser Criston so easy on the eyes. He should be a bit rougher looking.

[magdalene]

49 minutes ago, ursula said:

Something that I don't think the episode explained, but if Daemon's wife has died, why does Viserys object to Daemon and Rhaenyra marrying? Isn't that literally their custom (Viserys is the child and grand-child of two brother-sister marriages, and his wife and great love was his first cousin) to keep their blood pure? 

He's sees Daemon as an arrogant loose cannon with ambitions for the throne. You may in theory go along with your cultures incest habit, but in practice may not want to let your younger brother marry your daughter.

Also, I don't think Daemon's wife is dead as of this episode.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, ferjy said:

Rhaenyra, you shameless hussy! 

I was glad that it was Criston she lost her maidenhood to. And happy that Daemon stopped himself. 

2 hours ago, ferjy said:

Thank God that awful elf hair is gone. Please Daemon, don’t grow it back. At least not all the way. Now if only we can get Viserys to de-hair, head and face. 

2 hours ago, Jaundiced Eye said:

On a shallow note, Daemon looks so much better with the haircut. I assume at some point in the future uncle and niece will couple for real. They really do have some chemistry.

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

The awful white blond wigs still bother me. They just look like Halloween wigs.

Who would have thought that a Princess Diana wig would make him look so much better? 

He actually looks more like Matt Smith, now.

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Me? Not so much. If it's ever discovered, the best thing that will happen to him is he will be sent to the Wall. I wonder if she has any clue how much danger she put him in. (Or cares.)

I actually cringed.....her desire to get off could literally get him killed.

[Roccos Brother]

This has been the best episode thus far in my opinion. I will take the politicking and social/family dynamics over the large scale cgi action scenes any day. I loved the detail of the little boy "spy" reporting back to Mysaria as she is commenting on "hard lessons" and moving on from her previous life in the "skin trade"; a bit on-the-nose but clearly foreshadowing a much bigger role for her in the future. I'm excited to see what awaits.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Roccos Brother

[LadyChaos]

10 minutes ago, magdalene said:

He's sees Daemon as an arrogant loose cannon with ambitions for the throne. You may in theory go along with your cultures incest habit, but in practice may not want to let your younger brother marry your daughter.

Also, I don't think Daemon's wife is dead as of this episode.

Both Viserys and Daemon state that his wife in the Vale is still alive in this episode.

[Diapason Untuned]

Great episode.

Daemon really coming across as that lad who looks super fit when you see him across the bar but after hanging out for a while in the light of day you realize he's actually a loser.

Regardless of whatever reason he had for not laying with his niece, taking advantage of Viserys finding out what happened and selling her out so he could get himself on the Iron Throne was a dick move and I'm glad Viserys realized this and got rid of him. 

I also liked the way how they portrayed  Rhaenya picking up some bad habits from her uncle, such as manipulating people you have power over in sexual relationships. Ser Criston is in troubled waters now, he needs watch himself.

The contrast between Rhaenya's sexual escapades and Alicent's deeply depressing dead fish sex life was jarring. That poor girl has a tough life.

I was delighted to see Otto fucking himself over. Man was in such an almighty rush to screw over a teenage girl that he forgot to use a catspaw like any civilized person.

Kudos to our young Lord Blackwood. He didn't play around with that Bracken guy!

10 minutes ago, magdalene said:

He's sees Daemon as an arrogant loose cannon with ambitions for the throne. You may in theory go along with your cultures incest habit, but in practice may not want to let your younger brother marry your daughter.

Also, I don't think Daemon's wife is dead as of this episode.

There's also the fact that while incest and polygamy might be allowed technically, that doesn't mean there aren't opponents willing to stir up trouble over it, which the realm can ill afford right now.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Well... I didn't know maesters dabbled in Plan B potions.

GOT called it moon tea I think. 

[voiceover]

Daemon: still the most interesting character on the show, and it’s really not close.  As much as I fight the GoT comparisons as I watch, he’s so clearly the Jaime here — smart, cunning, fearless…and, yikes! a bit too fond of someone he shouldn’t be.  And at least he leavens his glower with a bit of humor (which this series desperately needs; Christ, these picklepusses make Littlefinger come off like a stand-up).

But he’s filled with a self-loathing that may always get in his way.  *That’s why he took Rhaenyra to a brothel (eeyeeuww); had to make it as nasty as possible, but in the end he couldn’t do it. Seems he regards his niece above everyone else, which is why he turned away and left her there.  I don’t think his is a physical problem (we’ve seen him quit before), so much as an insidious internal voice hissing “Gods, you’re disgusting!”  Bring on his character arc, I say.

And I still can’t get past Notting Hill’s Spike, grown into that devious plotter.  Glad that Otto was forced to take the L for now.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Daemon is such a fuck-up.  Any malice you want to assign to him seems to get negated promptly by self sabotage. No wonder that character is GRRM's favorite Targ.  It must be a dream for a writer to try to get into the head of someone so arrogant and prideful and at the same time so insecure and lost, and lonely? Taking Rhae to the brothel  and "seducing" her there was so uncomfortable because damn it , they have sizzling chemistry.  A bad man seduces a girl who happens to be his niece and the only reason she still has her "virtue" when he walks away from her because at the crucial moment he couldn't get it up. Shall I tell myself it was because he felt shame?

Just rewatched the ep and then the inside the ep, where they confirm Daemon couldn't keep it up because deep down he knew it was wrong. But they also suggest he wasn't expecting it to go that far, that his sex-ed demonstration was also meant to shock and he didn't really expect her to get to so turned on that she'd want sex too. Which is pretty brazen of her, come to think of it, as they were surrounded by witnesses.

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

To be fair, Criston did try to bolt from the room and she blocked the door. He also proceeded to tell her to stop a few moments later. He was absolutely shown to care about the implications, but she wouldn't stop pressuring him.

The only way he seemed to be getting out of there is if he forcefully put his hands on her and that would be a big no as she's the princess.

Not much of a threat, really.

From Criston's perspective, would you expect the king to take his word over his own daughter's? Odds are she would deny it and Criston would open himself up to potential punishment. 

Yes, but would Rhaenyra even want the embarassment of the conversation, even if Viserys believed her? And she was only blocking the door for a minute, he had time to grab the helmet and get out of there. Or leave the helmet, it wasn't that important. Very unlikely Rhaenyra would go snitch about him laying hands on her and then invite questions as to why. Maybe if Criston firmly and consistently said no, Rhaenyra would have ordered him to fuck her, but that's not what happened. I don't think she was thinking in those terms at all so much as assuming he wanted her. There is a power imbalance comprosing his consent but I just don't see it as quite the same as between a male royal and a female servant. 

And Rhaenyra's disregard of the smallfolk's opinion was prompted by their wish for a cock on the throne, so I don't find that too unsympathetic either. Then again, morally impurity in a character is a good thing and maybe fans shouldn't be looking for who deserves a thrones when nobody actually deserves to be a powerful monarch.

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

There is a power imbalance comprosing his consent but I just don't see it as quite the same as between a male royal and a female servant. 

There is a huge difference....if it was a male royal and a female servant, at best no one bats an eye and at worst she is sent away if/when she ends up pregnant. (...unless your Cersei and your killing off all your hubs bastards so your own bastard can sit the throne...)

With a female royal and male servant/guard, at best he is sent away to somewhere he can never speak of what he did and she is married off to the first man that will take her regardless of the rumor and at worst they kill the servant/guard for the audacity of touching the princess and she is still married off to the first person that will have her regardless of the rumors. 

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

And finding out Rhaenyra lied to her about her virginity unless that somehow stays secret.

But she didn't. Rhaenyra very carefully only swore that she didn't fuck Daemon. Nothing more, nothing less.

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Something that I don't think the episode explained, but if Daemon's wife has died, why does Viserys object to Daemon and Rhaenyra marrying?

She's still very much alive. He just hates her with the passion of a thousand dragons.

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Again, it's basically like I'm just watching the Game of Thrones version of Succession, which is something I never knew I wanted until now.

This is way better than Succession. Never could get into rich people being shitty to each other. The plots on that show were very pedastrian and I don't know what anybody saw in the famous boardroom scene in season one. Stoped watching after that episode.

1 hour ago, ZeeEnnui said:

She's fucking Matt Daemon!

I'm sorry but it's true!

36 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Matt Smith is the perfect example of a powerful man with unconventional features.

Somebody described him as "handsome in a way where you couldn't rule out generations of inbreeding" and I had to laugh because it's harsh but true.

[DigitalCount]

I think the confusion of whose wife is still alive comes from the first episode: Daemon was taunting Otto about his wife's recent death.

Speaking of Otto, that man is not going to go gently into that good night. He had a years-long plan in motion, and he had to know this was a possibility. I don't like him, but I love what he does for the story, and I can't wait to see his next move.

I get why Rhaenyra felt she needed to work off some frustrations with Ser Criston, but I felt bad for him. There was no good decision for him to make since he's WAY down the totem pole from her. And of course we don't get to see her decision regarding the moon tea at the end. Exactly how quickly would she be marrying Laenor?

I didn't think I'd be back in so deeply for this; I was never interested in reading Fire & Blood and prequels are inherently less exciting to me, but I'm really enjoying this show so far. Sad to read that Rhaenyra and Alicent will be changing actresses soon, but maybe we'll have more flashbacks and weird dreams next season and get them back in some capacity.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Come to think of it, are there any more Targaryens around besides Rhaenys, Viserys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra?

Rhaenys’s children Leana and Leanor Velaryon are Targaryen by blood. 
 

30 minutes ago, magdalene said:

You may in theory go along with your cultures incest habit, but in practice may not want to let your younger brother marry your daughter.

Well it’s not really a theory when Viserys himself is a product of incest, married his first cousin and considered marrying his other cousin’s daughter. His only objection against Leana was her age. And now he’s marrying Rhaenyra to Leanor. It just feels like the writers are trying to remind us the audience that even thought this is a show about an incestous family, incest is still bad folks so don’t try this at home.

Daemon’s having a still living wife would have been a simpler explanation and clarified his marital status, something I don’t think they’ve explained since episode 2.

[Dac22]

34 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Yes, but would Rhaenyra even want the embarassment of the conversation, even if Viserys believed her?

The issue is you expect Criston to know what she would do. He doesn't. Nor should he expect the king to take his side over hers if it came to it. 

Quote

And she was only blocking the door for a minute, he had time to grab the helmet and get out of there

The thing is a person shouldn't have to essentially say no three times.

He had already tried to leave and she stopped him. He literally told her to stop. If it was so simple to leave, he would have already done it. The power imbalance can't be ignored when he tried to stop things.

Ultimately, though, I think this could be another Jaime/Cersei situation. 

From the creators standpoint, I think Criston was supposed to be heavily conflicted between his vows/honor and love for Rhaenyra. And at the end of the day, he ends up choosing love at that moment after her prodding. 

But given Rhaenyra is the princess, that Criston owes his Kingsguard membership to her, and him trying to put a stop to things twice, it comes across as something a little more dubious. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Dac22

[PurpleTentacle]

7 minutes ago, ursula said:

Daemon’s having a still living wife would have been a simpler explanation

Well then that explaination is very simple, since he has a wife who is very much alive, as was mentioned multiple times this episode.

[MBayGal]

One thing that took me out of the scene was that Rheanyra does not have a lady's maid. No way royal women got in and out of those complicated layers of clothing on their own.  There are corsets to be laced up and all those buttons or other fastenings to be fiddled with on the back of the formfitting dress. But she manages to get out of her dress and whatever else with no help, to change into her peasant outfit.  The next morning someone knocks and she responds,  mentioning a female name, to come in because she is dressed.  Have we ever seen her with a servant?  That makes no sense to me. 

Hightower's spies reminded me of the "little birds" on GoT. As for Otto, self-serving or not, he had a duty to inform the king of Rheanyra's misadventures.  Who knows what might have transpired in the future if the king had not known about MD's and R's night on the town and dealt with it? He was being a good Hand.  But he is not likely to go quietly!

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Come to think of it, are there any more Targaryens around besides Rhaenys, Viserys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra?

7 minutes ago, ursula said:

Rhaenys’s children Leana and Leanor Velaryon are Targaryen by blood. 

And now Alicent's Targaryen babies.

[jeansheridan]

I really liked seeing Daemon and Rhynera running through the streets of Kings Landing. It was quite a "date". And their chemistry is very strong.

I also appreciate her backbone. When confronted with this potential scandal she kept her head, calmly denied everything, and never panicked. She may be a wild child but she has the arrogance and confidence to keep her head up. I think Daemon thought to shock her in the brothel but she's made of sturdier material. She's more Cersei and Margery than an Arya (seeing her in boy's clothing made me think of Arya).

I think Alicient's sex scene also served to show how injured the king is and she knows it. But her dead eyes were very effective. I hope she gets a lover someday.

Wasn't the name of Rhyerna's first suitor the same as the character in GOT who kept dying and being brought back? Ser Baric Dondarian?

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, MBayGal said:

Hightower's spies reminded me of the "little birds" on GoT. As for Otto, self-serving or not, he had a duty to inform the king of Rheanyra's misadventures.  Who knows what might have transpired in the future if the king had not known about MD's and R's night on the town and dealt with it? He was being a good Hand.  But he is not likely to go quietly!

According the post episode discussion, the writers said the issue wasn't that he had to inform the king of what his daughter was doing....but that the only way anyone would've known, was if Otto was having Rheanyra followed in an effort to get her discredited, and therefore sowing discord at court to further his own interest....Yes people saw her in the brothal, but no one in that brothel would have seen her before to know it was her.

[PurpleTentacle]

5 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

One thing that took me out of the scene was that Rheanyra does not have a lady's maid. No way royal women got in and out of those complicated layers of clothing on their own.  There are corsets to be laced up and all those buttons or other fastenings to be fiddled with on the back of the formfitting dress. But she manages to get out of her dress and whatever else with no help, to change into her peasant outfit.

Getting out of those dresses isn't as much of a problem as getting in, so I buy it. She might have even told her maid to get her out of the clothes, since she wanted to go to bed and then sliped in the peasent garb instead.

I'm sure she has a ladies maid to dress her, we've just never seen it, since it's not that important.

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Yes people saw her in the brothal, but no one in that brothel would have seen her before to know it was her.

Although, you'd think the long white hair would give it away. That can't be that common...

[LadyChaos]

10 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Getting out of those dresses isn't as much of a problem as getting in, so I buy it. She might have even told her maid to get her out of the clothes, since she wanted to go to bed and then sliped in the peasent garb instead.

I'm sure she has a ladies maid to dress her, we've just never seen it, since it's not that important.

Although, you'd think the long white hair would give it away. That can't be that common...

idk.....if Viserys and Daemon f'ed their way through all the brothels in Kings landing like he said....there's probably a lot of white hair in that city....

Edited September 12, 2022 by LadyChaos

[Constantinople]

13 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

According the post episode discussion, the writers said the issue wasn't that he had to inform the king of what his daughter was doing....but that the only way anyone would've known, was if Otto was having Rheanyra followed in an effort to get her discredited, and therefore sowing discord at court to further his own interest....Yes people saw her in the brothal, but no one in that brothel would have seen her before to know it was her.

I wouldn't assume no one in the brothel would recognize her. It's unlikely there have been no public events in which she's participated. Plus she's there with Daemon. There won't be that many couples with Targaryen blonde hair walking around and Daemon was already known in that part of town. Plus the last time he was in a tavern/whorehouse, Otto received multiple reports he was there.

I heard the behind the scenes video where they say Otto had Rhaenyra followed, but how? She snuck out with Daemon. I think it makes more sense that they have spies in brothels and taverns. In the high end ones to spy on nobles to make sure they're not thinking of doing anything stupid. In the lower end ones, primarily to take the city's temperature. And she and Daemon were spotted.

[PurpleTentacle]

10 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

idk.....if Viserys and Daemon f'ed their way through all the brothels in Kings landing like he said....there's probably a lot of white hair in that city....

Pretty sure that is a recessive trait. See: Jon Snow.

[RobertDeSneero]

I finally figured out why I dislike Daemon: he has this slight sort of Elon Musk look and feel about him and I effing hate that guy.  I mean, Daemon is a great character, but I want him to be the bad guy so I can root against him.

He's pure id, a hedonist at heart.  He's teaching his niece that she has the power to take what she wants and she's so clearly been lusting after Sir Criston based on past episodes.  (I thought they were going to do it after killing that boar.).  Daemon is teaching Rhaenyra how to be a bad queen and she's not even accepting the useful bits like acknowledging how the common folk think.

That tea was just a cold way for Viserys to tell his daughter she's a liar....which she is.

I guess Mysaria is the White Worm.  Is she working for Otto or just working for whoever pays her or was there a plan to leak information to Otto so that he goes to the king and gets discredited by doing so?

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Pretty sure that is a recessive trait. See: Jon Snow.

I was making a joke....sorry...

2 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I guess Mysaria is the White Worm.  Is she working for Otto or just working for whoever pays her or was there a plan to leak information to Otto so that he goes to the king and gets discredited by doing so?

Well she said she no longer made money selling her body, but she still paying the bills somehow...

[gingerella]

Methinks Rhaenyra will not drink the Plan B tea, and she will i dwed be with chikd by Ser Cristin, snd will try to pawn it off as being her new husband's spawn. But since it won't be 'pure Valyrian' blood the child will have no affinity with dragons and people will start to suspect. The kid will probably also have Ser Cristins dark hair, another give away at his parentage. So they're setting up Cristin as the Jon Snow figure. He'll, I'm assuming he gets sent to The Wall because someone puts two and two together. That's my guesses.

I think Daemon wanted to both sully her reputation and try to marry her as another trick to get to the throne, though it seems like an obvious ploy...

[LadyChaos]

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I wouldn't assume no one in the brothel would recognize her. It's unlikely there have been no public events in which she's participated. Plus she's there with Daemon. There won't be that many couples with Targaryen blonde hair walking around and Daemon was already known in that part of town. Plus the last time he was in a tavern/whorehouse, Otto received multiple reports he was there.

I heard the behind the scenes video where they say Otto had Rhaenyra followed, but how? She snuck out with Daemon. I think it makes more sense that they have spies in brothels and taverns. In the high end ones to spy on nobles to make sure they're not thinking of doing anything stupid. In the lower end ones, primarily to take the city's temperature. And she and Daemon were spotted.

My guess is that Mysaria is working for Otto, recognized Rhaenera with Daemon and sent the boy to tell him....Otto said that his source was someone that has worked for him for a long time, and has yet to let him down.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I wonder if we'll ever find out what happened to the Blackwood kid. Drawing your sword in the heir's presence is about as big a no no as possible, even if he was responding to the other guy's provocation. He should be swinging from a rope by now.

There might be a Kingsguard job opening very soon...

[RobertDeSneero]

10 minutes ago, gingerella said:

The kid will probably also have Ser Cristins dark hair, another give away at his parentage.

If you look at who her father said she's marrying, it's probably not going to be the hair color that will be the first tip off that her husband might not be the daddy.

[PurpleTentacle]

1 minute ago, RobertDeSneero said:

That tea was just a cold way for Viserys to tell his daughter she's a liar....which she is.

I maintain that technically she is not a liar. Nobody asked her if she was still a virgin, only if she nailed Daemon, which she truthfully answered that she didn't.

I mean she would have and she did nail her bodyguard. But technically she did not lie.

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I was making a joke....sorry...

Apology accepted. 😜

1 minute ago, gingerella said:

The kid will probably also have Ser Cristins dark hair, another give away at his parentage.

The kid not being black would probably be a bigger giveaway than the hair. Which is why this choice to inject some "diversity" into the show might not have been the greatest.

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

But she didn't. Rhaenyra very carefully only swore that she didn't fuck Daemon. Nothing more, nothing less.

True, she didn't fuck Daemon, though only because he physically couldn't go through with it. But she was very much lying when she said he never touched her, that she did nothing, that she would never, and that she asked to go home before the brothel. The fact that she then fucked Criston after Daemon got her all revved up is just another bomb waiting to go off and will only make her earlier lies seem worse. Alicent made a fair assumption based on Rhaenyra's words and I doubt she'd care about the technicalities if she learns she was misled. 

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

The issue is you expect Criston to know what she would do. He doesn't. Nor should he expect the king to take his side overs hers if it came to it. 

The thing is a person shouldn't have to essentially say no three times.

He had already tried to leave and she stopped him. He literally told her to stop. If it was so simple to leave, he would have already done it. The power imbalance can't be ignored when he tried to stop things.

Ultimately, though, I think this could be another Jaime/Cersei situation. 

From the creators standpoint, I think Criston was supposed to be heavily conflicted between his vows/honor and love for Rhaenyra. And at the end of the day, he ends up choosing love at that moment. 

But given Rhaenyra is the princess, that Criston owes his Kingsguard membership to her, and him trying to put a stop to things twice, it comes across as something a little more dubious. 

Sorry for being unclear. I'm only talking about Rhaenyra's culpability and intent, not that he is a mind reader. What she is likely to do and what she actually did is relevant when considering how guilty she is of taking advantage and how much she meant to. I don't want to victim blame but if we want to assess Ser Criston's motives, his actions are also relevant. He tried to leave only before she kissed him, when it seemed she was only playing a silly game. Then he whispered stop without mentioning any of the many reasons sex would be a bad idea. He shouldn't have to, yes, but when his career and very life could be on the line, it might be a good idea to argue a little more. This leads me to think his hesitance was about a conflict between honor and desire moreso than not wanting to be with her and acting purely out of fear of her displeasure. We'll know more about the aftermath later, and ymmv, that's all I wanna say after too much rape arguments in the GoT days. My point is, almost everyone's concent is compromised here so it's a bit odd for people to be thinking Criston a unique victim while wondering why Rhaenyra can't just marry whoever she's told, spread her legs and bear it like Alicent, and all the while risk her life as her mother did. (I'm speaking generally here, it just feels like a mood.) It sucks for Criston that she is his boss and he can't marry her, but so long as they're better at secret-keeping than the Lannicest twins...well, admittedly that is a big if.

51 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Wasn't the name of Rhyerna's first suitor the same as the character in GOT who kept dying and being brought back? Ser Baric Dondarian?

Yeah, the old guy was an earlier Lord Beric Dondarrion, according to the subtitles. I also spotted a guy wearing the Frey sigil in the line of suitors.

10 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If you look at who her father said she's marrying, it's probably not going to be the hair color that will be the first tip off that her husband might not be the daddy.

7 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The kid not being black would probably be a bigger giveaway than the hair. Which is why this choice to inject some "diversity" into the show might not have been the greatest.

Any kid of Laenor/Rhaenyra's would be 1/4 black, 3/4 white in our skin color terms. Take a look at Prince Harry's kids if you want a real example of what that looks like. Laenor is hardly any darker than Meghan Markle.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Lady S.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

The issue is you expect Criston to know what she would do. He doesn't. Nor should he expect the king to take his side over hers if it came to it. 

And even if the King believed him, the simple solution would be to arrange for an accident for him (Cole). 

 

Quote

But given Rhaenyra is the princess, that Criston owes his Kingsguard membership to her, and him trying to put a stop to things twice, it comes across as something a little more dubious. 

maybe I’m giving the show too much credit but I think that dubiousness is deliberate. And we’re supposed to wonder if that was a consensual sex act or not.

Edited September 12, 2022 by ursula

[nilyank]

48 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Although, you'd think the long white hair would give it away. That can't be that common...

Especially after Daemon removed her cap so that her long silver hair would be seen by all the brothel attendees. She was also caught by the Sir Knight What's his name who recognized her as she was running around where she was not supposed to.

[PurpleTentacle]

3 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Any kid of Laenor/Rhaenyra's would 1/4 black, 3/4 white in our skin color terms. Take a look at Prince Harry's kids if you want a real example of what that looks like. Laenor is hardly any darker than Meghan Markle.

Meghan Markle is one quarter black. So Rhaenyra's and Laenor's kids would likely look like her (without the light makeup she most often wears). That's kinda the point. Also as somebody from america she'll have quite a bit of white ancestry on her black side. I'm not super comfortable talking about real people's racial background, but you brought it up.

For these fictional people: Is it possible that one kid of Laenor and Rhaenyra could pass as white? Super unlikely, but sure. Multiple? No. If none of the kids look anything like their father, that's going to be a problem.

[Lady S.]

29 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Meghan Markle is one quarter black. So Rhaenyra's and Laenor's kids would likely look like her (without the light makeup she most often wears). That's kinda the point. Also as somebody from america she'll have quite a bit of white ancestry on her black side. I'm not super comfortable talking about real people's racial background, but you brought it up.

For these fictional people: Is it possible that one kid of Laenor and Rhaenyra could pass as white? Super unlikely, but sure. Multiple? No. If none of the kids look anything like their father, that's going to be a problem.

We're talking about the casting of real people of color, so yeah, I think other real people are relevant. I've never heard that Meghan Markle's mother is biracial, only that she is, but I'm not comfortable nitpicking her ancestry either. The salient point is Laenor's actor is no darker than she is, so no, I don't think it's implausible that any children he had with Rhaenyra would be even lighter-skinned and "white-passing". Which is not to say there's no danger, but the hair color really is the sticking point as both Rhaenyra and Laenor have Valyrian hair and it's surely a recessive trait so neither should carry genes for dark hair. A white-passing white-blond kid would probably be fine, though.

[dramachick]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

The kid not being black would probably be a bigger giveaway than the hair. Which is why this choice to inject some "diversity" into the show might not have been the greatest.

This is a fantasy show with dragons. Characters will look the way the writers want them to look to make the story work -- as opposed to real life where one never really knows what phenotypes will result from the unions of certain individuals. 

[jenn31]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Who would have thought that a Princess Diana wig would make him look so much better?

😆 The costuming department is taking a beating. They must be ruing the day they came across the closet full of elf wigs. 

[jenn31]

7 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

He also probably had a crush on her at the same time so he wasn't thinking too clearly on the possible consequences of his actions. 

Let’s face it, he was thinking of only one thing. Poor guy took chastity vows. Celibacy and men don’t mix well. 😀

Idiot move though. I certainly don’t blame Rhaenyra. He could and should have left. I think he knows Rhaenyra well enough by now to know she wouldn’t have punished him for it. 

[cambridgeguy]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

But since it won't be 'pure Valyrian' blood the child will have no affinity with dragons and people will start to suspect.

Being only half-Targaryen is just fine for dragons, as proven by Jon Snow.  Plus Alicent's kids will likely be dragon riders too, and there's no indication the Hightowers have Valyrian blood.

I wonder if Viserys has ever considered wearing chain mail under his clothes.

Edited September 12, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[bluvelvet]

Alicent needs a sexy handsome side piece. If Cersei could get away with it, so can she  

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

When Rhaenyra talked about not wanting to end up like her mother I find it very hard to dismiss it as selfishness after we all watched her mother die horribly. Alicent meant well last week speaking of how "easy" birth turned out to be, but hearing how much better than Aemma she is at babymaking would not be comforting, more like salt in the wound. And as Aemma's daughter Rhaenyra has reason to expect her luck more than her ex-bff/stepmom's.

True enough but only if Rhaenyra were an ordinary girl. 

If she really wants to become the Queen, she must marry a man who is powerful enough to help her against others and bear an heir, otherwise her position isn't secure.

So he had to choose between fear or ambition?

If "tea" was really from the king (and not a poison sent by Otto), there are methods of prevent childbearing.

[paigow]

58 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Alicent needs a sexy handsome side piece. If Cersei could get away with it, so can she...  

who also happens to be a cousin....

[Haleth]

Viserys really is being chewed up slowly by the throne.  His back was a mess of oozing wounds.  Gross.  Even being surrounded by porn tapestries that has to be a turn off for poor Alicent.  Viserys surprised me though by being more astute than he appears.  Publicly denying his little girl is not a maiden while quietly sending her tea.  

I want to like Rhaenyra and can understand why a hot blooded teenager is going to make some really bad mistakes (especially after going to a sex show), but when she disregards what the small folk think of her and when she seduces a guy who surely will lose his head if it is found out, that makes her seem like a complete narcissist, someone who is not fit to rule.

Otto could probably have saved his job and standing with the king if he had said he was having Matt Daemon followed, not Rhaenyra.  Come on, Otto, you can think on your feet.

8 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I feel bad for Ali. She’s an intelligent young woman who is being treated as a broodmare. 

Welcome to the history of women before the invention of the pill.