S01.E01: The Heirs of the Dragon

[tennisgurl]

Damn it Game of Thrones, just when I think I'm out, you pull me back in. When I look back on the show now, I really try to focus on what made it so excellent in the first place instead of the messy last seasons, so I am going to try and go into this with that mindset. Even when the show has to remind me of Dany and the Song of Iced and Fire prophesy, both of which I know are going to amount to absolutely nothing. But then they play the theme song and we see the Iron Throne and Red Keep in their glory again, and I am right back in again. 

I like seeing the Targaryen dynasty back in its prime and Westeros back in more "normal" times then the Game of Thrones era, dragons everywhere, actual dragons as well as in the symbolism and décor, and its fun to see the ancestors of a lot of Game of Thrones characters of the future. I am also so glad that they are focusing on the political intrigue right away, its already really interesting seeing factions form, alliances shifting, and all of that Targ drama. 

Not many dragons yet, but I am guessing they are holding off on too much dragon action until they start getting to the big battles, cant blow through that budget too quickly. 

A lot of brutal violence to start us off, but the primitive C-Section was the hardest to watch by far. All that blood, the screaming, Queen Aemma screaming in pain and fear, begging for them not to cut into her, it was just awful. Nasty reminder of how dangerous childbirth really is when you take away modern medicine. Its all so sad, and while it was a terrible choice, I can understand why King Viserys gave the Maesters the go ahead to cut the baby out. It seemed like he was told that his wife would die no matter what and that this was his only chance to save his baby, so he took the chance, even if it didn't work. At least he was there to hold his wife as she died and tried to offer her some comfort, and the cut meant she probably died a lot faster than she would have otherwise. She wasn't totally forgotten about after her womb performed its duty. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, aghst said:

Even if he did care, would it keep him from marrying her off to a mad king?

Also, weren't the Starks going to marry off Sansa to Joffrey?  They didn't see right away what an asshole he was but the way he had Arya's little friend punished, they probably could have guessed.

It might be a consideration. The King is the King, but if he is a decent dude (like King Viserys looks to be) that's far more attractive than a "Mad King".

After seeing Joffrey's character, Ned had reservations about the engagement, after learning Joffrey was Jaime's he called it off (because there were no more political implications). Its a matter of checks and balances. Sansa was also very "gung ho" about it. If Sansa had begged not be be engaged to Joffrey, Ned wouldve considered it.

Just now, Tatum said:

Yeah I think it's just like anything else- you get some people who put their ambition/needs above all else, and you get some people who don't. I am sure there were fathers like Daenery's brother and fathers like Ned Stark (and grandmas like Olenna Tyrell, who will kill you before you can harm someone they love).

Yes I agree with you. Its a checks and balances. Of course you would prefer your daughter to get to marry a handsome guy she likes, her own age, who is rich and powerful, well connected and nice to her, but if you only get a few of those traits, you'll settle for that, depending how many daughters you have and the needs of the family at the time.

[Tatum]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

You caught my previous comment before the edit but in the show, Rhaenys' husband says that she's the daughter of the eldest prince. Therefore, I would think that she would be the next heir after her father, and Viserys' father would fall in line after her.

However, succession appears to work differently in this time period of the GOT/HOTD universe to a male preferred Targaryen even if it means skipping a direct descendant.

I don't think this counts as a spoiler since it doesn't relate to anything that is going to happen on the series, but it might come from the book. Newsweek was recapping the first episode and said that the King chose to name his younger son as his heir when his oldest son (Rhaenys' father) died, which to me, means the oldest son's line has officially been cut off from the throne. Then, when Viserys' father died, the King has to decide whether or not to make Viserys the next in line, or revert back to Rhaenys, as she was older and daughter of the oldest son. So, in that case, it would make sense to me that Viserys did "win". So the fact that Rhaenys was still a contender is interesting to me.

[Tachi Rocinante]

The music of the ending conversation/montage reminded me of the opening of this song, just a bit slower:

Dream Theater

Edited August 22, 2022 by Tachi Rocinante

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

You could certainly leave your non marital/illegitimate children money/property, and they could have power and influence 

Roose & Ramsey Bolton had their Mufasa / Simba moment in the sun... Then Simba turned into Scar when Roose 3.0 showed up...

Edited August 22, 2022 by paigow

[go4luca]

Regarding the bad wigs, I kept half expecting Daemon to pull out an elf bow at any second.

[patty1h]

The rivalry between the king and his brother seem too... pat and with no basis other than to start the show with big drama. I didn't pick up on the reason why Daemon seems so bitter and antagonistic towards the king. That little tiff they had about Daemon cleaning up the city was an easy softball to start their being stinky towards each other, not to cause a blood feud between these brothers.

I know the show needs something to build conflict on but this sibling 1v1 feels kinda weak to me to start what looks to be a lot of bloodshed and backstabbing.  I saw enough family BS in the original GOT. I would have liked more build up.

[Tatum]

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The actress playing Rhaenyra was quite good, which 

  Reveal spoiler

provokes mixed emotions for me since I know her character and Alicent will be aged up/recast this season.

I had no idea! I haven't really watched much press for the show and I did not read any of the books (I never read any of the books in the GoT series either), and when watching the upcoming season I was so confused as to who the angry blond woman was.

[Msample]

I thougt the pilot was OK. It suffers most from the inevitable comparison to GoT, which despite its debatable ending seasons, started off about as well as any series can ever hope to.

The cast while not terrible lacks the standout characters from the original. And the budget was clearly whacked compared to GoT; between spending on CGI for the dragons scenes, there were obvious green screen backdrops that indicate it was more studio shot than location shot. For instance the early scene of the carriage ride into Kings Landing was jarring for how fake the background looked.

The childbirth scene was over the top in terms of how gruesome it was. I get it, medieval childbirth was a dangerous process; I don't need to see it in literally excruciating detail.

Otto turning out his daughter while the kings wife's corpse wasn't even cold yet. Yeesh.  That said Rhys Ilfams was more restrained than I thought he'd be givem his penchant for playing bad guy roles. 

[Tatum]

4 minutes ago, patty1h said:

The rivalry between the king and his brother seem too... pat and with no basis other than to start the show with big drama. I didn't pick up on the reason why Daemon seems so bitter and antagonistic towards the king. That little tiff they had about Daemon cleaning up the city was an easy softball to start their being stinky towards each other, not to cause a blood feud between these brothers.

I know the show needs something to build conflict on but this sibling 1v1 feels kinda weak to me to start what looks to be a lot of bloodshed and backstabbing.  I saw enough family BS in the original GOT. I would have liked more build up.

See, what surprised me is I did not think there was animosity. I thought the king seemed rather indulgent of his brother and I thought the brother was sincere when he said he would have protected the king when no one else would. I wonder if Daemon was one of the 12 contenders to the crown that the council basically blew off.

ETA: I did think Daemon looked properly ashamed when Viserys confronted him about what he said about heir for a day. It was a super shitty thing to say, which surprised me because I didn't think Daemon was supposed to be a straight up villain who only cares about getting to the throne.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Tatum

[gingerella]

Oof, I hardly know where to begin... So I missed the prime time airing of this last night but knew they were re airing immediately afterward so I turned it on to see the closing credits, and I was a bit stunned to hear the GoT theme song, right down to that last single chord that resonates at the end. The music alone got me very excited for what was to come!

Then E01 begins and I'm like, okaaay... I don't know, I'm with those who were surprised that everything pretty much looked the same as in GoT. What people wore, how they acted, the architecture, the weaponry, all of it looked exactly like GoT era, so in 172+ years nothing has changed?! Take fashion and weaponry today, and then go back 172 years, things were very, very different, and to not make things noticeably different just felt lazy to me. And lazy brings up pretty negative feelings of GoT and how its writing and story telling devolved into a lazy shit show in it's later seasons, which made me already question if I would watch this series after one episode.

It seems a lot of folks like Matt Smith but I loathed his portrayal of Prince Phillip in The Crown, and I don't like him in HOTD either. He always seems smarmy and oily, and while I assume that is intentional, it's almost like watching is characterization of Prince Phillip, but in the GoT/HOTD universe, and it's jarring to me.

The opening shot/scene did nothing for me like the opening scene of GoT S01E01, where they are riding through the tunnel and the gate opens slowly and you see what is north of the Wall. That scene grabbed me so viscerally (not viserysly, sorry I had to!) and I knew I was all in on the cinematography alone. But the opening of HOTD? I just thought, meh, the city looked way over-CGI'd and very fake. The violence of the gold cloaks running riot through the city claiming to crack down on law breakers? How did they know all those people they were killing were really law breakers? They didn't. They just rode through the city slaughtering people left and right, it was gross and unnecessary. And the brutality of the jousting and allowing Daemon to cheat and kill people in the name of sport? I call bullshit on that. Why wouldn't he be disqualified? And the horrible C-section segment? Honestly? This is GOT all over again, with an over abundance of violence, gore, and full frontal nudity (women only though because yanno, it's always about the women isn't it with this world).

I ended up f/fing through the violence and gore, and I'm not sure I can stick out a full season of this yet again. It's like they just took GoT and made new characters and are trying to re-do GoT with a new name. Same families, same clothes, same everything, but without D&D so yanno, y'all will love it more. So far, it's not doing much for me. I'll give it another week and see if its just starting gate growing pains, but I just can't with all the violence and gore because the story could be told without all that, and possibly be made better for it. Improve the dialogue, show us the labyrinth of intrigue and make it so complex that we cannot keep it all straight, but do it without the gratuitous violence, sex, and gore.

One thing I noticed was that in the swearing fealty scene they say, "I swear by the Old Gods and the New", and I wondered, when did the 'New' Gods start?

PS: I wish we'd seen Old Valyria, since they did mention it. I would have liked to have started a prequel all the way back there because we always hear of it, first throughout GoT and now in the opening of HOTD, surely if they'd gone that far back things would be 'different' and not just a GoT redux.

Edited August 22, 2022 by gingerella

[Pop Tart]

2 hours ago, Tatum said:

ETA: What is Alicent to Rhaenyra? I know they are friends, but does Alicent have a job? Is she like a tutor? She was quizzing Rhaenyra in one scene on history. What I am getting at is are they simply friends, or does Alicent actually serve Rhaenyra in some capacity?

She's a lady in waiting is my take - daughter of a noble house who works as an attendant for a princess/queen. She was helping Rhaenyra study by quizzing her, but it was for a class or other tutorial she'd be doing the next day. She mentioned that the Septa would be angry if Rhaenyra didn't know the facts. So both friend and attendant.

As to the episode, I'm in. It was a bit slow in parts (broken up by gory violence and childbirth), but I know that much of that was table-setting to get everyone in place.

I do question how - both at the time Viserys is named heir and now that Viserys isn't sure he'll have a boy, so needs an heir - finding some random noble who might become the heir would be able to work. In both situations, there are named Targaryens available (Rhaenyris and Viserys 9 years ago, and Daemon and Rhaenyra now) to be the heir, so why would they have a bunch of other nobles compete for the position?  Yes, finding the most able, strongest, etc. is important, but don't they need to have some Targaryen blood in order to be "dragons" who can withstand fire and manage the actual dragons?

That didn't make any sense - in terms of the rules for this particular ruling family.

[Scarlett45]

35 minutes ago, Tatum said:

See, what surprised me is I did not think there was animosity. I thought the king seemed rather indulgent of his brother and I thought the brother was sincere when he said he would have protected the king when no one else would. I wonder if Daemon was one of the 12 contenders to the crown that the council basically blew off.

ETA: I did think Daemon looked properly ashamed when Viserys confronted him about what he said about heir for a day. It was a super shitty thing to say, which surprised me because I didn't think Daemon was supposed to be a straight up villain who only cares about getting to the throne.

I think the thing is that Daemon is intelligent, but lacks the executive functioning and impulse control to be a good ruler, although he desperately wants to be. King Viserys probably is smart, but lacks the ruthlessness to be a good ruler in this society. (he would probably make an excellent Master of Laws or official Historian of the realm or something) Although unlike Daemon, King Viserys would listen to other people and wouldn't always have to be right. 

I think Daemon is the younger brother who thinks he's so much smarter than everyone else, but he's just smart enough to be dangerous, but not smart enough to know how much damage he would cause if unchecked (or he doesnt care). Yeah, he knew what he said was fucking shitty as hell, but he was mad, and has the emotional maturity of a 10yrs old.

11 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I do question how - both at the time Viserys is named heir and now that Viserys isn't sure he'll have a boy, so needs an heir - finding some random noble who might become the heir would be able to work. In both situations, there are named Targaryens available (Rhaenyris and Viserys 9 years ago, and Daemon and Rhaenyra now) to be the heir, so why would they have a bunch of other nobles compete for the position?  Yes, finding the most able, strongest, etc. is important, but don't they need to have some Targaryen blood in order to be "dragons" who can withstand fire and manage the actual dragons?

That didn't make any sense - in terms of the rules for this particular ruling family.

I am assuming most of the other contenders were all Targaryen cousins/nephews/nieces of various relations. Your gender, age, marital status, prowess in battle, if you had proven yourself fertile and had children of your own, would all play a part in if you were a strong contender to be heir.

A nephew who was further down the line of succession but was a fierce warrior, with wife and some healthy sons already might have the support of another nobles, where as a female direct descendent might not.

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, patty1h said:

The rivalry between the king and his brother seem too... pat and with no basis other than to start the show with big drama. I didn't pick up on the reason why Daemon seems so bitter and antagonistic towards the king. That little tiff they had about Daemon cleaning up the city was an easy softball to start their being stinky towards each other, not to cause a blood feud between these brothers.

I know the show needs something to build conflict on but this sibling 1v1 feels kinda weak to me to start what looks to be a lot of bloodshed and backstabbing.  I saw enough family BS in the original GOT. I would have liked more build up.

You don't know what you don't know - yet, and then some. If you're willing to give it time, you may find yourself happily surprised by how events unfold.

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

One thing I noticed was that in the swearing fealty scene they say, "I swear by the Old Gods and the New", and I wondered, when did the 'New' Gods start?

The new gods are the Seven, aka the gods of the Andals, who came to Westeros after the First Men. You may recall that Drogo often referred to Jorah as 'Jorah the Andal'.

[Tatum]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think the thing is that Daemon is intelligent, but lacks the executive functioning and impulse control to be a good ruler, although he desperately wants to be. King Viserys probably is smart, but lacks the ruthlessness to be a good ruler in this society. (he would probably make an excellent Master of Laws or official Historian of the realm or something) Although unlike Daemon, King Viserys would listen to other people and wouldn't always have to be right. 

I think Daemon is the younger brother who thinks he's so much smarter than everyone else, but he's just smart enough to be dangerous, but not smart enough to know how much damage he would cause if unchecked (or he doesnt care). Yeah, he knew what he said was fucking shitty as hell, but he was mad, and has the emotional maturity of a 10yrs old.

One thing that kind of annoyed me about GoT was the characters were either "good" or "bad"- and if you were bad, you were bad through and through and had NO redeeming qualities. I guess there were a few gray characters, like Jaime, but generally speaking, pretty much one extreme or the other. I would actually really like it if neither Hightower nor Daemon were cartoon villains, but rather just both had really strong feelings on what what would be better for King's Landing and were willing to do what it took to get there. I mean, Daemon had a point that the King let far too much crime go unchecked. His methods were cruel and unprecedented, but maybe there will be less crime going forward. That said, I wouldn't want Daemon for a ruler either and I can hardly blame Hightower for doing what he has to do to block his rise.

[go4luca]

Just out of curiosity, which version of Dracarys do you prefer?  Rhaenyra's or Daenerys?

[Meredith Quill]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think the thing is that Daemon is intelligent, but lacks the executive functioning and impulse control to be a good ruler, although he desperately wants to be. King Viserys probably is smart, but lacks the ruthlessness to be a good ruler in this society. (he would probably make an excellent Master of Laws or official Historian of the realm or something) Although unlike Daemon, King Viserys would listen to other people and wouldn't always have to be right. 

I think Daemon is the younger brother who thinks he's so much smarter than everyone else, but he's just smart enough to be dangerous, but not smart enough to know how much damage he would cause if unchecked (or he doesnt care). Yeah, he knew what he said was fucking shitty as hell, but he was mad, and has the emotional maturity of a 10yrs old.

I think one episode is too little to assess a character's personality fully tbf. I understand you're likely saying 'this is how it appears to be from what they've shown us', and I'm not saying I think you're entirely wrong, I'm merely saying that no opinion should be set in stone based on one episode alone. 

As for what he said about 'heir for a day', yep it was shitty. However, what I saw was Daemon feeling down and perhaps conflicted about the untimely demise of his nephew, he was quiet and not joining in the revelry. Then his mistress came along and egged him on to be his 'usual self' (which I suspect partially - note the partially - is an act to be one of the 'lads'). He allowed himself to be drawn into that persona and in the heat of the moment, made a poor decision. I agree with the person above who said he seemed genuinely ashamed of what he'd said. We've all made shitty decisions and/or said shitty things we later regret. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt until I see more.

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I think one episode is too little to assess a character's personality fully tbf. I understand you're likely saying 'this is how it appears to be from what they've shown us', and I'm not saying I think you're entirely wrong, I'm merely saying that no opinion should be set in stone based on one episode alone. 

I can agree with this, I am looking forward to seeing more. 

 

10 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

As for what he said about 'heir for a day', yep it was shitty. However, what I saw was Daemon feeling down and perhaps conflicted about the untimely demise of his nephew, he was quiet and not joining in the revelry. Then his mistress came along and egged him on to be his 'usual self' (which I suspect partially - note the partially - is an act to be one of the 'lads'). He allowed himself to be drawn into that persona and in the heat of the moment, made a poor decision. I agree with the person above who said he seemed genuinely ashamed of what he'd said. We've all made shitty decisions and/or said shitty things we later regret. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt until I see more.

I think Daemon definitely had conflicted feelings. I believe he loves/has affection for his brother and niece. I believe he doesn't want him hurting over the loss of his wife and son, but he also likes the idea of being heir and having the Iron Throne all to himself. Matt Smith is such a skilled actor, he can bring all of the nuance (which is very realistic) just in his face. I would be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if we didnt have other characters (not just one but many) lamenting how power hungry and incompetent he was, and not one saying that wasn't true, just offering excuses for him.

[Tatum]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I think one episode is too little to assess a character's personality fully tbf. I understand you're likely saying 'this is how it appears to be from what they've shown us', and I'm not saying I think you're entirely wrong, I'm merely saying that no opinion should be set in stone based on one episode alone. 

As for what he said about 'heir for a day', yep it was shitty. However, what I saw was Daemon feeling down and perhaps conflicted about the untimely demise of his nephew, he was quiet and not joining in the revelry. Then his mistress came along and egged him on to be his 'usual self' (which I suspect partially - note the partially - is an act to be one of the 'lads'). He allowed himself to be drawn into that persona and in the heat of the moment, made a poor decision. I agree with the person above who said he seemed genuinely ashamed of what he'd said. We've all made shitty decisions and/or said shitty things we later regret. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt until I see more.

I agree. Plus, Rhaenyra seems to have an honest affection for him. I am fine with a more character driven show than GoT was. I am hoping for a smaller cast with a bit more nuanced characters.

[aghst]

3 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I agree. Plus, Rhaenyra seems to have an honest affection for him. I am fine with a more character driven show than GoT was. I am hoping for a smaller cast with a bit more nuanced characters.

I think they need more minor characters who bring the funny.

Like Varys and that big lug who was on the road with Arya for awhile.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Daemon definitely had conflicted feelings. I believe he loves/has affection for his brother and niece. I believe he doesn't want him hurting over the loss of his wife and son, but he also likes the idea of being heir and having the Iron Throne all to himself. Matt Smith is such a skilled actor, he can bring all of the nuance (which is very realistic) just in his face. I would be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if we didnt have other characters (not just one but many) lamenting how power hungry and incompetent he was, and not one saying that wasn't true, just offering excuses for him.

Fair enough. Now imma

to avoid wandering into any spoilery shitses.

[Rickster]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Then E01 begins and I'm like, okaaay... I don't know, I'm with those who were surprised that everything pretty much looked the same as in GoT. What people wore, how they acted, the architecture, the weaponry, all of it looked exactly like GoT era, so in 172+ years nothing has changed?! Take fashion and weaponry today, and then go back 172 years, things were very, very different, and to not make things noticeably different just felt lazy to me. 

Putting aside the fact that fantasy writers rarely think about such issues, it’s a little unfair to compare today’s world, with massive social and technological change since the Industrial Revolution, with a medieval world (and not one set towards the end of the medieval era when gunpowder was introduced). It’s probably more appropriate to compare to a Western Europe between 800-1000.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Rickster

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I can agree with this, I am looking forward to seeing more. 

I think Daemon definitely had conflicted feelings. I believe he loves/has affection for his brother and niece. I believe he doesn't want him hurting over the loss of his wife and son, but he also likes the idea of being heir and having the Iron Throne all to himself. Matt Smith is such a skilled actor, he can bring all of the nuance (which is very realistic) just in his face. I would be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if we didnt have other characters (not just one but many) lamenting how power hungry and incompetent he was, and not one saying that wasn't true, just offering excuses for him.

47 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Fair enough. Now imma

to avoid wandering into any spoilery shitses.

I lied. I am going to say some more - NOT SPOILERY - stuffs bc I think it bears saying.

You said "I would be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if we didnt have other characters (not just one but many) lamenting how power hungry and incompetent he was, and not one saying that wasn't true, just offering excuses for him."

But those other characters were all members of the small council... Daemon & Otto are clearly both ambitious men, and ambitious men tend to loathe other ambitious men in their orbit bc 'threat'. Now, with that in mind;

1. The Hand is head of the small council "We all serve at your pleasure Lord Hand" - Varys to Ned GOT S1.

2. The rivalry/conflict between Daemon & Otto is open knowledge.

3. Otto knows Daemon desires his position I have no doubt, however, Daemon isn't the Hand, Otto is, so who will most, if not all, of the small council agree with/back?

4. Daemon told Viserys that the small council are leeches who prey on his weakness (kindness?).

5. If we believe there is any shred of truth to what Daemon said, if Daemon was ever to be made Hand then most, if not all, of said leeches would be out and they no doubt know that.

So I don't really put weight on what the small council 'leeches' think of Daemon as it seems they're all feathering their own nests albeit more subtly. I do, however, put some weight on what Rhaenyra thinks of her uncle as she has no hidden agenda, likely knows him on a more personal level and seems to like him.

Fwiw, I'm not saying I think Daemon is a wronged angel by any means, but there's room for nuance and complexity there. And I like to look behind the motivations of characters to analyse why they say what they say and do what they do.

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Given how patriarchal this world is, why doesn't kings have multiple wives?

Or at least something like official harems or concubines?

But heirs can only come from children birthed by the queen?  A bastard can't become king?

Didn't Drogo have something like a harem and then he and Daenerys actually fell in love and became monogamous?  Of course dewy-eyed modern sentimentality imposed over a story taking place in ancient times and in cultures where the mores aren't anything like today.

I could be mistaken, but GRRM was inspired by medieval Europe, and the concept of one marriage at time. Other than that, heirs coming only from the queen solve many many problems, namey internal wars that weaken the family/house/dinasty on power. A marriage to a king is a political alliance, the queen's family/house gains power from that and woudn't want to see a bastard 'usurp' the throne.

[dramachick]

4 hours ago, Tatum said:

I agree, plus, he's probably terrified of Daemon ascending and wants to nip that in the bud now. Interesting that the other guy (the one married to the Queen who never was) did push his own wife but also defended Daemon multiple times.  I can't tell who (solely) has their own agenda and who just thinks the King kind of sucks and needs to get his shit in order, feelings be damned.

Yes, I was a little confused by Corlys when he came to Daemon's defense more than once. Maybe he wants Daemon (agent of chaos) to continue to cause problems and provide the opportunity for Corlys and Rhaenys to take the iron throne.

Remember the immortal words of Littlefinger: "Chaos is a ladder."

[Meredith Quill]

41 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

I could be mistaken, but GRRM was inspired by medieval Europe, and the concept of one marriage at time. Other than that, heirs coming only from the queen solve many many problems, namey internal wars that weaken the family/house/dinasty on power. A marriage to a king is a political alliance, the queen's family/house gains power from that and woudn't want to see a bastard 'usurp' the throne.

Spoiler

Although, it isn't unheard of in the GOT world for Targ kings to have multiple wives. Two that come to mind (there may be more, I can't recall offhand) were; Aegon the Conqueror, who had his two sister wives and Maegor the Cruel, who had three wives at once.

Both of which were notably before the rule of King Viserys.

Presumably, it comes down to preference of the ruling monarch and perhaps social convention made that practice fall out of favour? 

[NeenerNeener]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:10 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Also, these aren't even dragons! These are wyverns!

Why, yes, they are. Thank you very much for noticing.

It looks like we're going to get the same high quota of nekkid people scenes per episode that the original series had.

[Pop Tart]

I'm very much of the mindset that Daemon is not a villain or a hero, but something more complex than that. He's not an angel for sure, but he's much more complex than just a devil either. I'm guessing that when the real battles for succession come into play that he may end up allying with Rhaenyra at some point against other comers.  I have not read the books or any spoilers, etc. This is purely my guess based on what I've seen of the characters so far.

Given the scheming I'm guessing will come from Hightower and others, I'm thinking there may be some drawing together of the Targaryens eventually - when they become threatened by others.

I'm basing this on the way we saw Daemon respond to his brother defending him (when he was listening in to the council meeting), his and Rhaenyra's demonstrated closeness, and the interaction between Daemon and Viserys when he banished him. It's evident they all care about each other and though they may battle one another, which I'm sure will happen, they'll draw together when others try to take over.

[iMonrey]

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Just out of curiosity, which version of Dracarys do you prefer?

Weird, I always thought "Dracarys" was a Dothraki words.

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Daemon definitely had conflicted feelings. I believe he loves/has affection for his brother and niece.

Oh I'm gonna go out on a small limb and say it's probably going to be a lot more than just affection at some point...I mean, they're Targs and they like to keep it all in the family!

[ZeeEnnui]

Someone get King Viserys a tetanus shot and a box of Lady Clairol to touch up that beard. No particular order. In later seasons of OG GOT it drove me nuts that they essentially stopped bothering to touch up Tyrion and Jaime's hair. Like, Lannister's are super blonde. If their hair hasn't darkened by the time they hit puberty, then it's not gonna go brown just because the show runners got bored making the show. 

I listened to a podcast where one of the hosts had a theory that the Viserys' miniature model of misery was actually the mini seven kingdoms from the Game of Thrones opening credit scene. I'm now obsessed with this idea. It also made me sad because I wanted a super cool opening credit sequence for this show. 

Where's the ref in these jousts?!? No timeouts just head smashes. 

Anyone else get skeeved out by the tension between Daemon and Rhaenyra in the Iron Throne room? Lots of creepy uncle incest touch vibes.

Someone call the Septa because we've got a BAD DAD in Otto. Gross. 

I see we have Shae 2.0 (or because this is the past, I guess 1.0). Too bad Daemon doesn't have that Tyrian snark, just lots of sneers. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Fwiw, I'm not saying I think Daemon is a wronged angel by any means, but there's room for nuance and complexity there. And I like to look behind the motivations of characters to analyse why they say what they say and do what they do.

What you say makes a lot of sense, but I have to wonder why Daemon has NO allies on the Small Council. I don't expect everyone to like him or defend him, but given no one will why is that?

He has no allies except his older brother who loves him on a familial level. Can he not play nice with others? Will he not follow social rules and try to beget heirs on his Vale wife ? (I mean, he called her as ugly as a sheep- even if she was, its not polite to bring dishonor on your wife and the women of her entire land).

All things being equal, if he was a half way decent "team member" he would have 1-2 allies besides his own brother, 1-2 real enemies (because that is life), and 1-2 council members who were neutral, but willing to admit he was competent.

I don't see King Viserys as weak, but I do not think he was cut out to be a King in this type of society. A constitutional monarchy, where his duty was to perform charity work and perform ceremonial duties, SURE, but this, no. The best king is probably a blend of Viserys and Daemon.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, patty1h said:

The rivalry between the king and his brother seem too... pat and with no basis other than to start the show with big drama. I didn't pick up on the reason why Daemon seems so bitter and antagonistic towards the king. That little tiff they had about Daemon cleaning up the city was an easy softball to start their being stinky towards each other, not to cause a blood feud between these brothers.

I know the show needs something to build conflict on but this sibling 1v1 feels kinda weak to me to start what looks to be a lot of bloodshed and backstabbing.  I saw enough family BS in the original GOT. I would have liked more build up.

I don't think Daemon is bitter and antagonistic toward Viserys. I am taking him at face value that he likes and wants to support Viserys, but sees him as soft. This Viserys is not all about Fire and Blood like the house motto. He seems very gentle. And from Daemon's perspective that is a problem because it leaves him vulnerable to the schemes of the rest of the court. 

Can one imagine advisors trying to whine about criminals being brutally punished to Viserys from GOT, Danaerys, the Mad King or any of the other Targaryens we have even passing familiarity with and them being at all receptive? Or one of them letting that Heir for a Day shiznit slide without a more brutal reprisal than "go home to the Aerie"?

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Weird, I always thought "Dracarys" was a Dothraki words.

Dracarys is High Valyrian. 

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I had a problem with it wrt TIMING. I mean jeez, his wife wasn't even cold in her grave yet... not classy Otto, not clas

Of course Aemma wasn't cold in her grave. She was cremated Targaryen style.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have to wonder why Daemon has NO allies on the Small Council.

Will he not follow social rules and try to beget heirs on his Vale wife ? (I mean, he called her as ugly as a sheep

Otto should lose his job for not sealing off the room that Daemon was spying from.

Somebody mentioned that Aemma is also from The Vale... so he is burning [Seth Meyers style] Viserys at the same time...

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Weird, I always thought "Dracarys" was a Dothraki words.

Doubtful, since Dothrakis never domesticated dragons...

Edited August 22, 2022 by paigow

[silverstream]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

The violence of the gold cloaks running riot through the city claiming to crack down on law breakers? How did they know all those people they were killing were really law breakers? They didn't. They just rode through the city slaughtering people left and right, it was gross and unnecessary.

That scene really confused me, and I'm still not sure what we're supposed to take away from it (partly because I wasn't about to watch a bunch of people getting mutilated). What were they doing? a) Having a sadistic punishment orgy on people who have actually been caught/convicted as criminals or b) going through the city and killing/mutilating whoever unlucky person they happened to come across and retroactively claiming that "yes, sure, those were all criminals, pinky promise"? Because when I was watching it felt very much like b but everyone in-universe and most of the posters here seem to treat it as a, and the distinction is kind of important to Daemon's characterisation.

[magdalene]

I had an odd thought. Queen Emma  had lost quite a few babies over the years. Now that may well be because the culture of incest  in house Targaryan  weakens the gene pool.  But I distinctly remember from GOT that the Maesters hated the Targaryans.  The Maesters who are always around maybe are secretly sabotaging the line and the succession?  There always have been breech babies.  Even in the bad old days skilled midwives were able to turn babies to give the baby and the mother a chance.  Why wasn't this at least attempted? It makes me wonder.

[Raachel2008]

8 minutes ago, silverstream said:

That scene really confused me, and I'm still not sure what we're supposed to take away from it (partly because I wasn't about to watch a bunch of people getting mutilated). What were they doing? a) Having a sadistic punishment orgy on people who have actually been caught/convicted as criminals or b) going through the city and killing/mutilating whoever unlucky person they happened to come across and retroactively claiming that "yes, sure, those were all criminals, pinky promise"? Because when I was watching it felt very much like b but everyone in-universe and most of the posters here seem to treat it as a, and the distinction is kind of important to Daemon's characterisation.

For me it was b. How come everyone in that square was a criminal? At first it looked to me that it was just your regular market with a few vendors left but then suddenly everybody was a rapista or a thief. It didn't look - for me - like there was some serious detective work going around.

[Tatum]

5 minutes ago, silverstream said:

That scene really confused me, and I'm still not sure what we're supposed to take away from it (partly because I wasn't about to watch a bunch of people getting mutilated). What were they doing? a) Having a sadistic punishment orgy on people who have actually been caught/convicted as criminals or b) going through the city and killing/mutilating whoever unlucky person they happened to come across and retroactively claiming that "yes, sure, those were all criminals, pinky promise"? Because when I was watching it felt very much like b but everyone in-universe and most of the posters here seem to treat it as a, and the distinction is kind of important to Daemon's characterisation.

I could not tell either. I will take Daemon at his word that there are a lot of rapists, robbers, and murderers running around Kings Landing. So I don't know if he assumed that anyone running around late at night was up to no good, or if he simply didn't care, and figured the mere threat of another sadistic punishment orgy would stop the would be criminals from doing anything in the future, and if he killed or disfigured innocent people, well the ends would justify the means. It did seem to be mostly men he was dismembering.

At this point, it could go either way. He could feel that Visery's shortcomings as a king are threatening the Targaryen dynasty, and for the good of their legacy he needs to step in, or he could be just a power hungry spoiled child with a case of bloodlust.

[Meredith Quill]

17 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I had an odd thought. Queen Emma  had lost quite a few babies over the years. Now that may well be because the culture of incest  in house Targaryan  weakens the gene pool.  But I distinctly remember from GOT that the Maesters hated the Targaryans.  The Maesters who are always around maybe are secretly sabotaging the line and the succession?  There always have been breech babies.  Even in the bad old days skilled midwives were able to turn babies to give the baby and the mother a chance.  Why wasn't this at least attempted? It makes me wonder.

The maester said that all attempts to turn the baby had failed.

10 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

For me it was b. How come everyone in that square was a criminal? At first it looked to me that it was just your regular market with a few vendors left but then suddenly everybody was a rapista or a thief. It didn't look - for me - like there was some serious detective work going around.

I can't say for certain obviously but based on the captain of the city watch pointing out different men and yelling 'RAPER', 'MURDERER' etc, I extrapolated that they were targeting known criminals. Much like when Bronn (as commander of the city watch) said that he'd had the gold cloaks round up all the known thieves prior to the battle of Blackwater I imagine. 

[Roccos Brother]

I'm going to echo what some have already said about the CGI looking surprisingly fake, especially whenever we see shots of the Red Keep or King's Landing in the background. I read that the budget for HOTD is actually higher than GoT's, and with rapid technological advances I don't understand why so much of this show looks comparatively... cheap.

Having said that, the palace intrigue has drawn me in, which was my favorite aspect of GoT (less so the dragons and zombies). I originally thought the premise of focusing mainly on one family and its inner squabbles would bore me to tears, but I guess I was wrong.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Where's the ref in these jousts?!? No timeouts just head smashes. 

Perhaps that is the true proof of the king's weakness. Guy won't even police a simple sporting event, which is pretty much the one duty King Robert performed.

1 hour ago, silverstream said:

That scene really confused me, and I'm still not sure what we're supposed to take away from it (partly because I wasn't about to watch a bunch of people getting mutilated). What were they doing? a) Having a sadistic punishment orgy on people who have actually been caught/convicted as criminals or b) going through the city and killing/mutilating whoever unlucky person they happened to come across and retroactively claiming that "yes, sure, those were all criminals, pinky promise"? Because when I was watching it felt very much like b but everyone in-universe and most of the posters here seem to treat it as a, and the distinction is kind of important to Daemon's characterisation.

The whole thing was poorly choreographed but I do think it had to be be option a, based on the scene afterward. It's said that Daemon spent some time rebuilding the goldcloaks so there could have been time for intelligence-gathering on all the local troublemakers. The fact that they called out certain dudes as thieves, rapers, or murdeers implies accusations against them and if it was all just totally random surely Ser Otto would have called it such.

Remember, its not like Westeros has much of a justice system even 200 years later, especially not for the peasantry. None of those men would have been entitled to a fair trial in any case. At most, they had a right to ask to be shipped off to the Night's Watch instead.

New Targ Family Tree and Character Guide

Edited August 23, 2022 by Lady S.

[Kate47]

I did like the "problem like Maria" conversation between the King and Hightower re: Daemon. Can't make him Master of Coin because you say he's either stealing or thrifting, can't stick him in the City Watch because you think he's amassing a personal army, so what exactly should be done with the second son who's got all that ambition and a temper to go along with it?

Being King is tough tbh.

[DrSpaceman73]

I enjoyed the episude even though nothing too original in the main plot.  In fact its all pretty cliche. 

They really better have some subplots to hold this up.  

But certainly consistent with and goes well with the game of thrones universe. 

But I almost missed that the baby died. In fact had i not been spoiled to it beforehand and gone back three times to see the quick shot of the mummified baby and read the quick subtitle I would have missed it altogether. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

3. Otto knows Daemon desires his position I have no doubt, however, Daemon isn't the Hand, Otto is, so who will most, if not all, of the small council agree with/back?

4. Daemon told Viserys that the small council are leeches who prey on his weakness (kindness?).

5. If we believe there is any shred of truth to what Daemon said, if Daemon was ever to be made Hand then most, if not all, of said leeches would be out and they no doubt know that.

Which is Politics 101. You place people who'll support your policies in positions of power. That doesn't make them leeches, nor would it necessarily make their replacements by Daemon fine, upstanding men.

In any case, Daemon 

Spoiler

can't replace the Grand Maester, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or Corlys Velaryon unless he has them killed. The Grand Maester is chosen by the Citadel, the Lord Commander of the Kinsguard is appointed by the King, and dismissing Corlys isn't worth the political cost.

[Haleth]

Late to the conversation because I got caught up in the hbo/Firestick snafu. Had to create a new profile to get it to work.

Anyway… it was ok. I could have done without so much gore. Seems the writers want to outdo the predecessor with nudity and violence without establishing characters we care about yet.

Oh, Otto. 🤦‍♀️ Not subtle. 

[Broderbits]

King Viserys might be "decent and kind", but it was pretty stupid of him to put Daemon in the perfect situation to amass his own loyal army. Everyone knew about Daemon's unbridled ambition but no one could imagine him starting a rebellion? What a crappy advisory council, and I don't trust the Hand at all.

That childbirth scene was horrendous! Very grateful for modern medicine.....

[Meredith Quill]

14 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Which is Politics 101. You place people who'll support your policies in positions of power. That doesn't make them leeches, nor would it necessarily make their replacements by Daemon fine, upstanding men.

In any case, Daemon 

  Hide contents

can't replace the Grand Maester, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard or Corlys Velaryon unless he has them killed. The Grand Maester is chosen by the Citadel, the Lord Commander of the Kinsguard is appointed by the King, and dismissing Corlys isn't worth the political cost.

In and of itself it doesn't make them leeches, true, but sycophants - perhaps? Leeches wasn't my descriptor, it was Daemon's, and it demonstrates a mutual distaste shall we say. You won't find me arguing that if Daemon were the Hand, his choices would be any less sycophantic. However, it's a state of affairs that should be acknowledged regardless of whomever is the Hand, if said Hand is power hungry/ambitious more than he is devoted to the crown/realm.

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard - as we know, Robert removed Ser Barristan from the small council so yep he could be ousted if the Hand talked the King into it.

Grand Maester - probably harder to do but I doubt impossible if the Hand wished it so with enough determination, having him killed is an option if the Hand were ruthless enough.

I doubt Lord Corlys is a problem, he at least seemed somewhat supportive of Daemon.

No idea what position Lord Strong has?

Lord Beesbury, aka Master of Coin - lol bye boi.

[Constantinople]

Some things I didn't like

Cutting back and forth between the oath ceremony and Viserys telling Rhaenyra about Aegon's dream. I wanted too see as much of the oath ceremony as possible without interruption.

Mysaria's accent. It bus for some reason.

The sex scene between Daemon and Mysaria. It seemed so perfunctory, as in the writers felt there had to be a sex scene.

[cambridgeguy]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think Daemon definitely had conflicted feelings. I believe he loves/has affection for his brother and niece. I believe he doesn't want him hurting over the loss of his wife and son, but he also likes the idea of being heir and having the Iron Throne all to himself. Matt Smith is such a skilled actor, he can bring all of the nuance (which is very realistic) just in his face. I would be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if we didnt have other characters (not just one but many) lamenting how power hungry and incompetent he was, and not one saying that wasn't true, just offering excuses for him.

Daemon also strikes me as the type who likes the idea of being in power (It's good to be King!) but would be bored out of his mind with the mundane reality of ruling.  Viserys says as much and I think he's right about that.  So a lot like Robert, but with a nastier edge.  He'd probably be happy if Viserys gave him an army and sent him out to conquer someone.