S03.E07: From Unknown Graves

[paulvdb]

Quote

The Orville discovers a Kaylon with a very special ability.

Premiere date: July 14, 2021

[pertho]

'm confused about what the message of this episode was. Maybe it's because I'm autistic, but it felt, weird...

[AnimeMania]

Eliza Taylor as Dr. Villka

I liked this episode, but I also don't understand why Kelly talking about her infidelity in marriage would sway the Janisi to reopen negotiations. I imagined Claire and Isaac talking in the holodeck:

Claire:  What is the first thing you are going to do now that you have emotions?

Isaac:  I'm going to smack Charly in her smug face!

When Isaac said his emotions disappeared, I thought maybe Timmis was lying about still having emotions and maybe killed Dr. Villka's father.

Too bad that when the Kaylons gained their sentience, they didn't realize that not all biological sentients were bad, even stupid Charly seemed to learn that lesson. The Kaylons killed a lot of people who couldn't afford to have robot servants and children.

There was a lot of humor in this episode, maybe a little too much, they could have left out the parts with LaMarr and Talla..

[phalange]

2 hours ago, pertho said:

'm confused about what the message of this episode was. Maybe it's because I'm autistic, but it felt, weird...

The most broad message is simply that subjugation is evil. Humans and Moclans have a history of subjugating women, the Janisi subjugate men, and the biological Kaylon subjugated the androids they created. More specifically, it was about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Timmis learned it isn't fair to judge all biologicals based on how their creators treated them, and Charly started to sympathize with the Kaylon after learning they were abused and enslaved by their creators. 

The other theme explored what people are willing to do for the person they love. Isaac loves Claire enough to erase his memory so he'll gain human emotions, and Claire loves Isaac enough not to ask him to do it. With John and Talla, even though he was getting injured every time they had sex, he cares about her and was willing to risk getting hurt rather than end their relationship.

And the most important lesson: be nice to Siri and Alexa. They'll remember during the inevitable robot uprising. 😉

Other thoughts: 

• The Kaylon were built to look like their creators: silver/gray with red/orange eyes.
• Ed and Gordon struggling to carry the Janisi's luggage was hilarious.
• I hope Kelly really does get to captain her own ship one day.
• I cracked up at Bortus wondering why the Union would align with such a backwards planet, and everyone turning to stare at him.
• I want John and Talla to figure things out. I like them together. 
• Mark Jackson did some master class acting in the scene when Isaac briefly experiences a range of emotions. I knew the show would create an obstacle that would prevent Isaac from staying that way permanently, but that moment with him and Claire was lovely. 

[Meushell]

The LaMarr and Talla relationship ship was just odd. It was hinted at, suddenly happened, then suddenly ended. Couldn’t they use the simulator to create avatars that each other? That way if Talla gets too rough, sim LaMarr can’t get hurt, and sim Talla won’t actually go that rough.

I loved everyone staring at Bortus when he didn’t understand wanting to have a relationship with the manizers.

Speaking of which, why did anyone think lying from the beginning, and to that degree, was a good idea? Really, the Orville should not have been sent. A ship with more females as the captain and senior officers should have been. Start with that without being so “Sure, we totally think men suck” about it.

I’m glad Isaac remained the Isaac we know. It was interesting to see him with those emotions, but I like Isaac how he is. His sudden love of Claire and her children indicates that he already loves them in his own way.

Assuming the emotions stayed, could they have been removed if he didn’t like them? Otherwise, that’s a huge change she was asking of him. I would be like if a human was dating a telepath… Things are going well. Then this new procedure comes out, and the telepath suddenly doesn’t want to date the human if they don’t want to be telepathic too. If it was a temporary, “Try it, but I’m still here if you don’t like it,” that’s fine. If it was “Do this permanent thing or lose me,” that’s creepy. He mentioned not wanting to go back, so I’m guessing/hoping he could have changed his mind on his own if he wanted to. 

[paulvdb]

1 hour ago, Meushell said:

Speaking of which, why did anyone think lying from the beginning, and to that degree, was a good idea? Really, the Orville should not have been sent. A ship with more females as the captain and senior officers should have been. Start with that without being so “Sure, we totally think men suck” about it.

That was the worst idea. And I was surprised that the Janisi didn't immediately call them out for lying. It's not like the Union is some secretive closed-off society like North Korea. So the Janisi must have put very little effort into their preparation for these negotiations if they didn't even know that men and women have equal rights in the Union.

[Chicago Redshirt]

There was a bunch of decent stuff in this episode, but also a lot of stuff that's a head-scratcher for me.

I echo the notion of: how could the Orville crew think that starting their relationship off with the AOW by lying about their ideas of gender was a good idea? Maybe lead with "the Kaylon want to wipe out all biological lifeforms whether they have va-jay-jays nor not, so maybe get over yourselves and see if we can work out a mutual defense pact, and we can figure out the rest of the stuff later? And if you can't, well, at least we warned you."

Also, is there just no public information about the Union and its many planets and did the AOW just not do any research? Did the first contact between the Union and the AOW happen to be with a predominantly female ship? One would think that in the equivalent of the Orville universe's Internet, there would be an overwhelming amount of information that shows the Union to be committed to equality between the genders. The AOW recognize Bortus as a Moclan, and it's implied through the contempt they have for him that they know that Moclus is a nearly all male society. Presumably they know that the Moclans are members of the Union. So how could they not know that the Union isn't all matriarchal?

The Ed and Gordon carrying luggage bit went on too long and was unfunny, especially when they could either a) have gotten more men to ferry the luggage or made multiple trips. Picard and Riker struggling to carry Lwaxana Troi's suitcase was funnier (although not exactly a knee-slapper), and it's a pretty sad commentary when you're not doing as well as a Lwaxana Troi joke.

Even within the framework of them thinking that they need to present all women as leaders of the ship, pretending Charly is the head of engineering seems like a bad idea. As far as we know, she's not an engineer. Does John really have no high-ranking women in his department who could pretend to be in charge for a couple hours? (Yes I know the show is trying to make Charly happen).

I echo the notion that bringing up the notion that Kelly cheated on Ed seems a bizarre choice to attempt to bridge the gap between the AOW and the Union. Hypothetically it should have had the AOW be like, "So your culture cares if women cheat on their men? What kind of back-assward people are you?" But again, focusing on the threat of the Kaylon, the actual reason for the alliance, would have been smart.

The John/Talla stuff was unsexy and kinda shortsighted and contradictory. Playing it for laughs that John was getting seriously injured and refusing to come clean about the source of the injuries being his romantic partner doesn't land well for me. Especially when Claire could put on her counselor hat and suggest some alternatives for the two of them. Not that they should need Claire to figure some out: some form of restraints for Talla would probably prevent most of the inadvertent injuries she might inflict, different positions than missionary probably would as well. I would imagine some sort of sedatives would be an option. It's not a question of no-sex or hurtful sex. There's presumably a bunch of middle ground stuff that they could do. And presumably again, there would be tons of literature on how Xelayans can have safe sex with normals. I also don't like the notion that they are in the "I'm so in love with you" type phase. I'm assuming that there hasn't been that long since the events of last episode, maybe a couple weeks? That's way too soon for both to be like, "This is the most special relationship I've ever been in" or "I'll always love you." 

Then we come to the Isaac/Charly/Claire part of the show. And yes, Mark Jackson did great work and was moving during the time he had emotions. Yes, it is good that Charly has finally moved on past the "All Kaylon are evil and I hate you Isaac" phase (hopefully). And I enjoyed Timmis and seeing the backstory of the Kaylon. I mean, we knew the broadstrokes, but seeing the family torture K-1 was brutal and brought it home.

But, I really don't like the notion that Claire would push for Isaac to undergo the emotion-grafting procedure. It's one thing to want a partner to change like "spend less time obsessing about work" or "do your fair share of chores around the house.." It's another to be like, "have brain surgery to fundamentally change who you are." Again, for Claire to say she actually loves Isaac doesn't compute for me. What does she love about him? If she ever loved him, why did she want him to change that much? I am glad that she realized wiping his memory is a step too far, but I also don't like that the show was not willing to mess with its status quo. An Isaac who could feel -- even for a couple episodes -- would be something.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, phalange said:

The most broad message is simply that subjugation is evil. Humans and Moclans have a history of subjugating women, the Janisi subjugate men, and the biological Kaylon subjugated the androids they created. More specifically, it was about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Timmis learned it isn't fair to judge all biologicals based on how their creators treated them, and Charly started to sympathize with the Kaylon after learning they were abused and enslaved by their creators. 

The other theme explored what people are willing to do for the person they love. Isaac loves Claire enough to erase his memory so he'll gain human emotions, and Claire loves Isaac enough not to ask him to do it. With John and Talla, even though he was getting injured every time they had sex, he cares about her and was willing to risk getting hurt rather than end their relationship.

And the most important lesson: be nice to Siri and Alexa. They'll remember during the inevitable robot uprising. 😉

Other thoughts: 

• The Kaylon were built to look like their creators: silver/gray with red/orange eyes.
• Ed and Gordon struggling to carry the Janisi's luggage was hilarious.
• I hope Kelly really does get to captain her own ship one day.
• I cracked up at Bortus wondering why the Union would align with such a backwards planet, and everyone turning to stare at him.
• I want John and Talla to figure things out. I like them together. 
• Mark Jackson did some master class acting in the scene when Isaac briefly experiences a range of emotions. I knew the show would create an obstacle that would prevent Isaac from staying that way permanently, but that moment with him and Claire was lovely. 

Excellent summary, @phalange!

• First, since several upthread think lying to the Jinisi was a terrible idea: Yes, but that's how earthlings have always done politics, amirite?
   
• Holy Battlestar Galactica, Batman with the Kaylon/Cylon origin story. 
  I'm just now noticing both made-up words are like synthetic fiber names Nylon and Rayon. 
   
• I'm so glad the humor is back.
  Humor is subjective, and I rarely actually laugh at intentional comedy, but I definitely LOLed at Seth and Scott with the luggage, having experienced the awkwardness of shlepping around stuff myself.
  --Seth directed the episode.
   
• Another LOL moment: When the Janisi wanted to mate with a very unwilling Ed, Malloy piped up: "I'll do it." Hee. That's the ol' unromantic Ed we met in season 1!
   
• But wow, tears too: When emotional Isaac and Claire met in the simulator, and then later at the meeting when Claire chose to not have his memory erased because it would erase his "soul," even though it meant he would not be able to be a partner in love with her. 😢
  So very Gift of the Magi.
   
• I am hoping for future technology breakthroughs that would allow Isaac to keep his memory and attain emotions, and also for John and Talla to have "safe" sex, although it does seem John and Talla should be able to do that virtually now.  
  I'm hoping in an upcoming episode John will share his problem with someone who knows the right method. 😉
   
• Between the laughs and the tears, this bit stood out to me:
  Following the Jinisia storming out of the dinner, Peter Macon's delivery of Bortus' line saying "They. Are. Awful." seemed to indicate Bortus was reflecting on his own Moclan culture of of mysogyny. 
   
• Since Seth directed this 7th episode in which Charly becomes a Real Girl, I can't help wondering about the nature of the MacFarlane/Winters relationship. I hope they are both enjoying the power dichotomy?
   
• Note:
  Onscreen credits at the start state: Written by David Goodman
  The only other episode Wikipedia indicates he wrote is the Season 2 finale, "The Road Not Taken," which seems to have been wiped from my memory bank. I will rewatch when I have time. 🙃 
  IMDb credits David Goodman additionally with writing 2 other The Orville episodes, other of Seth's shows, some Star Trek: Enterprise, and even an episode of The Golden Girls, among others https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0329047/?ref_=tt_cl_wr_2#writer).

Edited July 14, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Zaffy]

is there a way this series will get another season? shall I have hopes for a miracle? sigh.. another great episode...

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, Zaffy said:

is there a way this series will get another season? shall I have hopes for a miracle? sigh.. another great episode...

Seth has said that as long as the viewership is there, he's up for doing more seasons.

[Bort]

I know we’ve gone on about the special effects padding the episodes too much but I really liked that shot of the away team shuttle flying to the mining colony and it transitioning to the Kaylon moon in the flashback.

[tennisgurl]

I think one of the bigger themes of the episode was that its wrong to judge every member of a group based on the actions of some of them. Timmis realized that they were wrong to kill their builders and then all organics because of what some of their builders did, Charlie realized that it was wrong to judge every Kaylon as guilty, and the aliens of the week are sexist against men because of the actions of some men many generations ago, which is clearly shown to be unfair. Pretty solid episode, I was glad to get some more humor this time, even though most of the main plots were pretty serious. I liked the flashbacks to the Kaylon's home world before they took over, gives us a lot more context as to why things happened the way that they did. What they did was terrible, but what was done to them was also terrible. 

I am glad that Isaac is staying himself. I assumed he would, him having human style feelings would change him too much as a character, but he wouldn't be himself. Its clear that he really loves Claire and her kids in his own way, really the issue is that Claire struggles being able to understand his kind of love.  

The "lets pretend to hate men" plan was stupid on several levels. As even the aliens pointed out, lying to potential allies is a horrible way to start an alliance, why would they ever trust them after this? I really have no idea how they expected this to work long term, they are going to find out that they have gender equality at some point if they want to work together, they were always going to get found out so whey even bother. They should have just come in like "we don't agree on much but we can agree on not getting blown up by robots right?" and started from there. The aliens don't come off as too bright either, they said they did research on the Union, but they didn't learn on their own that men and women are equal there? Its not like the Union is a small isolated nation that no one knows about and they are certainly upfront about their pride in their equality, they should have known what to expect right away. I also am not sure how Kelley cheating on Ed made them want to consider working with them, but I am glad that this diplomatic trip at least worked out. I still think that the show is missing an opportunity by throwing out the Krill alliance so quickly, that still had so much room for stories. 

Everyone starring at Bortus when he asked why the Union would want to deal with such bigoted people was funny.

[Bort]

The misandric aliens were very Victorian England with their rules on men — obviously backwards. But their rules were very much the same as back then. Can’t drive, vote, be overly educated, be adulterous (though it’s ok for the other spouse - and expected).

[thuganomics85]

Enjoyed the min-The 100 reunion with not only Eliza Taylor playing Doctor Villka, but Christopher Larkin playing (or voicing?) Timmis.

Figured Isaac getting emotions wasn't going to last for very long, but I wonder if it will be revisited at some point.  I imagine they want to keep him this way long term (he is basically this show's Data after-all), but if he and Claire are endgame, I can maybe see the doctor returning with a more permanent solution for him closer to when the series ends (whenever that is.)  Do feel bad for Claire though.  At least it looks like Charly might be thawing out a bit with him now that she knows the history of the Kaylons and what really went down.

Yeah, the decision to appeal to the Janisi by acting like they think men are inferior as well was a bad call because while it makes sense to keep some cards close to the chest, going that far into it just makes them look untrustworthy and pandering.  At most, I could see them having Kelly take lead and maybe even give off the vibe she was truly in charge, but they should have least still had males characters present and working, so that the Janisi had an idea what to expect.  Even if they acted negatively, better to address it early on, instead of have it spring out like they did (of course, judging from Gordon's reaction, if that Janisi lieutenant was interested in him instead of Ed, they might have kept that ruse going on for longer.)  At least it all worked out, even if I think the solution was kind of flimsy.

LaMarr and Talla might already being over, because risking broken bones or more during sex might be a bit much for anyone.  Although, I'm kind of curious about the nitty-gritty of it and if they didn't at least try to find workarounds of some kind.  Try different positions?  Foreplay?  Maybe where a helmet like Gordon suggested...

Glad they got Mark Jackson to be on camera again in the flesh.

Bortus not seeing the irony of his complaints about the Janisi was hilarious.

Message was clear as day for this episode, but I still enjoyed it.

[Bort]

12 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

LaMarr and Talla might already being over, because risking broken bones or more during sex might be a bit much for anyone.  Although, I'm kind of curious about the nitty-gritty of it and if they didn't at least try to find workarounds of some kind.  Try different positions?  Foreplay?  Maybe where a helmet like Gordon suggested...

I was thinking Kevlar suit with a hole in the crotch. At the very least, I’m sure John was glad that Talla never broke his dick. 

[Lugal]

Mark Jackson was the MVP of a kind of scattered episode.  That once scene where he had emotions was amazing and he played it all out on his face (no wonder they had him appear as human in that).  I think they would have been better to save the Janisi for another ep and focus entirely on Timmis/K-One.  We all know they were supposed to be the same person right?  Because I feel like that could have been its own episode, about where the Kaylon came from and how they ended up where they are and Timmis gaining emotions and feeling remorse at what he and his people did.  It may have even made Charlie work in the episode.

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But, I really don't like the notion that Claire would push for Isaac to undergo the emotion-grafting procedure. It's one thing to want a partner to change like "spend less time obsessing about work" or "do your fair share of chores around the house.." It's another to be like, "have brain surgery to fundamentally change who you are."

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way.  The whole thing felt very manipulative and kind of out of character on her part.

12 hours ago, Meushell said:

The LaMarr and Talla relationship ship was just odd. It was hinted at, suddenly happened, then suddenly ended.

Yes!  Thank you!  That's how I felt for a while.  It would have been interesting if LaMarr debated having a procedure to make his bones and organs much more resilient so he could withstand sex with Talla, and compare it to Isaac's situation about fundamentally altering a part of yourself for a partner.  That scene at the end with him looking beat to hell and Talla crying was just kind of sad and disturbing.  Seriously, Claire should be reporting her suspicions about his injuries to someone, because I would think she could tell combat-related injuries from sex-related injuries.

11 hours ago, paulvdb said:

That was the worst idea. And I was surprised that the Janisi didn't immediately call them out for lying. It's not like the Union is some secretive closed-off society like North Korea. So the Janisi must have put very little effort into their preparation for these negotiations if they didn't even know that men and women have equal rights in the Union.

It was a dumb plan.  They should have just had Kelly and/or Talla deal with them and Mercer stays out of it.  It could have been a good character ep for either of them.

[DoctorAtomic]

16 hours ago, phalange said:

More specifically, it was about putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

That's as relevant as ever and always a welcome plot on any show for me. I certainly enjoyed the longer run time to give more heft to the Builders plot. I liked that the show was willing to go there and show the Kaylon killing the children. I actually would like if some of the Builders escape and we run into them at some point. Although they don't really say how long it has been since then. Clearly, long enough that Isaac is a second generation, but that's not overly long that any survivors would be died out. 

I also liked how the entire debacle basically centered around that the CEO treated the Kaylon as the Ford Pinto. 

I liked the humor though. It was well timed and placed. The whole dinner scene was hilarious. From the wine to asking if Kelly mated with Ed to Gordon, and then Bortus sticking the whole landing - They are *awful*. 

15 hours ago, Meushell said:

Speaking of which, why did anyone think lying from the beginning, and to that degree, was a good idea? Really, the Orville should not have been sent.

Not at all. That's why I like the show. The plan was doomed to blow up and was just ridiculous. It was worth it for Ed and Kelly to have to open some wounds, but no, they shouldn't have been there. They handwaved it fairly enough, but I like that they aren't the flagship of the Union. I mean, they said, the Union is looking for all the friends they can make with the Krill out and Kaylon still a threat. Maybe the Admiralty is just sending out ships on a long shot to a whole bunch of smaller civilizations. "Man haters? Send Ed and Kelly. They usually come up with something borderline." I've said before that I don't feel the Union is that established as an entity so they just might not have the personnel. 

I actually would like to see an episode from the Admiralty pov with all of our favorites just to hear them all complaining. You're not going to get much discussion of the Union itself in terms of governance unless you're in the higher levels. I don't even recall if there's a president of Earth or whatever. 

6 hours ago, kariyaki said:

The misandric aliens were very Victorian England with their rules on men — obviously backwards. But their rules were very much the same as back then. Can’t drive, vote, be overly educated, be adulterous (though it’s ok for the other spouse - and expected).

I didn't think it was that extreme until Kelly said all that. I thought it was more '50s housewife'. That's a huge bridge to gap there and underscores how desperate the Union is. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Bort]

36 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I actually would like if some of the Builders escape and we run into them at some point. Although they don't really say how long it has been since then. Clearly, long enough that Isaac is a second generation, but that's not overly long that any survivors would be died out. 

I’m pretty sure the Kaylon two parter from last season said it had happened several hundred years ago, though I can’t remember for sure anymore. But that’s not to say that there can’t be descendants of survivors out there somewhere. Their knowledge of the Kaylon uprising wouldn’t be first hand anymore but they’d know the story for sure.

I do wonder if this emotion upgrade for original Kaylons might be something that they can eventually send out as a virus that they upload.

[DoctorAtomic]

Last season seems several hundred years ago. 

[Athena5217]

This episode reminded me of a Star Trek TNG episode called Angel One that had a plot involving a matriarchal society. 
 

I didn’t like any of the three storylines in this episode. The crew lying to the Janisi when trying to open diplomatic relations was such a ridiculous idea. I have never liked the Claire-Isaac romance because he is a robot. It’s just too icky to think about. Finally, the John and Talia storyline was just alarming. I understand she was not trying to hurt him, but the result was too similar to real domestic violence to be entertaining. It was just said for me to see John be increasingly injured every time they had sex.

[Chaos Theory]

 I really liked the "Judgement Day" aspect of the episode.    Getting a better explanation of why the Kaylons killed their creators.  And yes I am starting to warm to Charly.  I know some people will forever hate her but I think that is part of the joke.  Hating a character for something she did in episode 1 is the same as her hating Isaac.  She has been showing growth so let her.      The fact that she was able to see the other side of the equation even if she will never truly be able to forgive Isaac is a huge step forward and that is all we can ask from a person.

And I really liked the Isaac and Claire scenes.  Alot of it presented kind of weird.  And Kelly telling Claire to ask Isaac to get emotions "For her" was kind of weird but I understand why the show did it that way.   And the scenes with Claire and Isaac when Isaac finally "felt something" was exceptionally well done.  I love the scenes where Isaac gets to wear his human face.  and watching Claire and Isaac together when they were both in the same place emotionally was heartbreaking because you knew it wasn't going to last.   And the way he ended worked for me.    I know people are going to nitpick it but to have Isaac and Claire have to chose between memory and emotion,   mind and soul is a perfect predictiment for them.

I also liked the John and Talia stuff.  It was  a fun way to show that not all interspecies relationships can work no matter how much both parties wanted them to work.   Every time they try to have sex John ends up getting injured.    So they can either have a relationship with no sex or end their relationship entirely.  Again you can nitpick that plenty of relationships even romantic ones don't entail sex but one of the things that was in fact weird about Star Trek was that any alien species seemed to be able to have a relationship with Riker or Kirk.  Riker or Krik fell in love and then in bed with that strange new species with no sexual disfunction.    If you watched the underrated Alien Nation they did it better.    Humans and New Comers were just not sexually compatible in a real meaningful way so when they did want to have sex they had to "work at it" and having children was not possible at all. 

I wish I liked the Kelly plot with the man-hating aliens more.  I would have loved to go into the race in a meaningful way that I don't think would happen.  But there was too many jokes in this plot that just kind of ruined the idea for me.  I know Seth likes his jokes but this would have been a better plot if it was more dramatic especially for Kelly being treated like the Captain for a bit and what it was like for her and to an extent for Ed to suddenly understand how it feels to be overlooked simply because of his gender.    But then this was a weird episode with weirdly timed jokes.   Not the best episode of the season but it did have it moments.  

Edited July 15, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[LeesburgLee]

I loved the choice of “Something Wonderful” from “The King and I” as the background music for the dinner. What a great touch that as the Janisi are walking out of the room the music is playing the line, “He has a thousand dreams that won’t come true.”

The song works really well for Claire’s part of the story, too: “The thoughtless things he’ll do / Will hurt and worry you / Then all at once he’ll do / Something wonderful” and “A man who needs your love can be wonderful.”

Nice!

[jmonique]

Is the actress who plays Charly the daughter of some Hulu executive or something? 

Can someone help me understand the constant focus on her this season?

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I know Seth likes his jokes but this would have been a better plot if it was more dramatic especially for Kelly being treated like the Captain for a bit and what it was like for her and to an extent for Ed to suddenly understand how it feels to be overlooked simply because of his gender.

To be fair, at the dinner, after the gig was up, Kelly and Claire pointed out that men and women are treated equally in the Union. So neither Kelly, Ed, or Claire would have actually been looked over, as we're saying it in the 2022 context. The show did a good job showing that the Janisi truly do overlook men (no voting or driving), and the one who liked the wine pawing at Ed. 

If anything, Ed was overlooked just in general because he washed out after the divorce, and Kelly was the one who got him the commission on the Orville.

Both him and Kelly had to revisit that in the last gambit to keep the Janisi at the table. 

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, jmonique said:

Is the actress who plays Charly the daughter of some Hulu executive or something? 

Can someone help me understand the constant focus on her this season?

She's Seth's new girlfriend.

[Commando Cody]

I was glad to see the backstory on the Kaylons.  I understood the part where it was stated that the servant Kaylons could communicate with each other. However, I assume they were not built with weaponry so that they could kill their owners.  That part didn't make sense to me.  I find it hard to believe that they were doing upgrades like that while the humans weren't around.

After watching those two kids torture the servant, I wasn't unhappy to see them dead. 

I didn't want Isaac to get the upgrade. However, he did get to express his feelings to Claire before he went back to his old self.  It was kind of amazing watching his expressions change.  It reminds me of a character actor named Fred Kohler. Fred was in an episode of  'The Mentalist". In one scene you see him change his expression from a scared, mentally challenged individual to a stone-cold guy who realized the jig is up.  It was amazing to watch.  You don't see that very often. 

I knew the lying was going to be a mistake.  

I don't know why one ensign would get to sit in on the officers' meetings.  Seth. Stop casting your girlfriends in your shows.  At least find one with better acting skills. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I actually don't care that Charly is Seth's gf, but it's a fair point as to why she's in the meetings. I would speculate that anyone that have posts on the bridge with the Captain are 'command staff' and would be qualified to be in the meetings. They were talking about where they were going and docking with the new potential Union allies, so the pilots knowing where they were going would be fair reason for them to be in on the meeting. Gordon was there too and so was Bortus and Talla. Also, Ed kind of runs a loose ship and it might be his decision to have them there. I'm fine with a reasonable fanwank on this show. 

[Colorado David]

Yeah, I think Charly is the helmsperson (like Sulu was in TOS.) So no problem with her sitting in the staff meetings - I'd pull as much as the bridge crew as I could, for the additional input.

[greekmom]

20 hours ago, kariyaki said:

I do wonder if this emotion upgrade for original Kaylons might be something that they can eventually send out as a virus that they upload.

They would have to fine tune the virus as it would only affect the original Kaylons and not the newer ones like Issac who were made by the Kaylons and not their biological masters.  I would have liked to see more about what happened during the war on Kaylon, how the people resisted and if they regretted what happened with enslaving the androids.

They sure borrowed heavy from TNG and DS9.  The women dominated planet (TNG Angel One), the Kaylon with feelings (TNG Datalore), John and Talla (DS9: Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places).  

Why was John so hesitant of telling Claire about how he was getting hurt? They can't be the first Xelayan/Human in an intimate relationship.  There has to be something Claire can give Talla to dull her strength for a few hours or make John a bit more robust to withstand their lovemaking. I mean, he did sleep with "pin girl".

I did enjoy Issac in his human form experiencing feelings and giving Claire what she needed. I also enjoyed how Claire knew that getting rid of Issac's memories would have him lose his "soul".

Too much Charly.

[Bort]

12 minutes ago, greekmom said:

They would have to fine tune the virus as it would only affect the original Kaylons and not the newer ones like Issac who were made by the Kaylons and not their biological masters.

Not really, because the 2nd generation Kaylons wouldn’t retain it anyway. It lasted all of about an hour on Isaac before his system purged it. So they’d get it and it would go away.

[MSterling]

8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 If you watched the underrated Alien Nation they did it better.    Humans and New Comers were just not sexually compatible in a real meaningful way so when they did want to have sex they had to "work at it" and having children was not possible at all.

Alien Nation is my favorite tv show. When Matt and Cathy tried to have sex, Cathy hurt Matt's neck and George recognized the injury immediately. I was kind of surprised Claire didn't recognize John's injuries since she's usually much better at those intuitive leaps.

Matt and Cathy had to take a class. Isn't there training for Talla and John? How did Alara manage? Alara never complained about constantly sending her boyfriends to the med unit, just how they were intimidated by her strength. Maybe they didn't get that far. Talla must know how to moderate her strength, otherwise she'd tear up surfaces constantly. I suppose she can't train herself to be careful during sex, kind of like Mr. Incredible putting a hand print in his car when he was mad.

[greekmom]

36 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Not really, because the 2nd generation Kaylons wouldn’t retain it anyway. It lasted all of about an hour on Isaac before his system purged it. So they’d get it and it would go away.

I thought you wanted it as a virus to give them empathy and feelings so that they can stop their war with the biologicals.

[Bort]

16 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I thought you wanted it as a virus to give them empathy and feelings so that they can stop their war with the biologicals.

Most of the Kaylons we saw were original generation with orange eyes. Isaac is the only 2nd generation we saw, so I would assume there aren’t very many.

[DoctorAtomic]

Even so, they'd have an hour of clarity. Isaac retained the memories, but not the feelings. It's a good a plan as any. The Union can't defeat them militarily. 

[chaifan]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:37 AM, AnimeMania said:

When Isaac said his emotions disappeared, I thought maybe Timmis was lying about still having emotions and maybe killed Dr. Villka's father.

That was my suspicion about the time that it was first mentioned that this could be an option for Isaac... that the procedure wouldn't work, or would revert quickly (as it did) and then they'd know Timmis had been faking it.  I'm glad they didn't go in that direction, though.

I'm not a fan of Claire & Isaac - it's more squicky for me than anything. I really didn't like how in the first dinner scene Claire's first comment was "aren't you going to change?"  As in, hey, I want to have dinner across the table from the hot dude Isaac, not no face robot Isaac.  It seemed really superficial to me.  Isaac's sending Claire the sexy dress, then professing his love immediately also just felt a little, ew, gross, almost like high school stalker level.  And Claire just lapping it all up was also weird. 

I'd like John and Talla to work.  She's figured out how to regulate her strength in every other aspect of life, so why is she breaking him so often and so easily?  She doesn't break every door she opens, every glass she picks up, every comm panel she touches, etc.  I thought once was good for comic effect, and I really thought the answer to "did I break your leg?" was going to be "nope, not my leg...".  I think they missed a good opportunity there...  The bruised and swollen face in the last shot was a step too far for me.  I hope they have John confide in Claire and she helps them figure out something (sex swing?) to make it work.

Bortis' "they're awful" was just perfect.  I think he had 10 lines in the entire episode, and each one was just great. 

Charly... here's my measure on why she's just a bad character:  If someone edited her out of every scene in every episode, would it make any difference to the plot, continuity, etc.?  Nope, not one bit.  She's completely superfluous, doesn't add a thing to the show. 

Overall, I thought this episode showed that The Orville can be exactly what SMcF envisioned - serious sci fi with a comedic twist.  I thought they blended the comedy and serious aspects really well, and I wish more of this season had this mix to it.  It's been far too serious for me up to this point. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'd like John and Talla to work.  She's figured out how to regulate her strength in every other aspect of life, so why is she breaking him so often and so easily?  She doesn't break every door she opens, every glass she picks up, every comm panel she touches, etc.  

The implication is that normally she can moderate her strength so she's not just destroying stuff left and right, but when she's getting too excited, she has involuntary or reflexive reactions that end up with John getting hurt. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[legaleagle53]

46 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The implication is that normally she can moderate her strength so she's not just destroying stuff left and right, but when she's getting too excited, she has involuntary or reflexive reactions that end up with John getting hurt. 

Yep. Think "Woman of Steel, Man of Kleenex."

[Welshman in Ca]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

Overall, I thought this episode showed that The Orville can be exactly what SMcF envisioned - serious sci fi with a comedic twist.  I thought they blended the comedy and serious aspects really well, and I wish more of this season had this mix to it.  It's been far too serious for me up to this point. 

This is exactly what has been missing up until this episode compared to the previous 2 seasons.

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The implication is that normally she can moderate her strength so she's not just destroying stuff left and right, but when she's getting too excited, she has involuntary or reflexive reactions that end up with John getting hurt. 

Maybe that's true of her species, but burly human men can soften their physical movements to accommodate more fragile human females so I don't know about that.  I think the point is that she loses some of that control getting caught up in the passion and heat of the moment.  Their relationship is still in that new and hot phase when that is typical.  Perhaps in time she can learn how to be more gentle.  I hope so, I'd like to see them work it out.

[marceline]

On 7/14/2022 at 8:43 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

But, I really don't like the notion that Claire would push for Isaac to undergo the emotion-grafting procedure. It's one thing to want a partner to change like "spend less time obsessing about work" or "do your fair share of chores around the house.." It's another to be like, "have brain surgery to fundamentally change who you are." Again, for Claire to say she actually loves Isaac doesn't compute for me. What does she love about him? If she ever loved him, why did she want him to change that much?

Cosign. I came away from this thinking that Claire is a very disturbed woman. I keep wondering how she can love Isaac when she finds him inadequate in every way. That's not remotely healthy. In fact the conversation between her and Kelly just seemed dysfunctional as hell. ("Isn't that what love is? Mutual sacrifice?" Me: No.) I feel like we were supposed to see similarities between Claire/Isaac and John/Talla but I think I saw them as opposite. Claire was manipulating Isaac where John and Talla were on the same page emotionally. Also, that final scene with John...that was something.

[Lugal]

16 hours ago, greekmom said:

They would have to fine tune the virus as it would only affect the original Kaylons and not the newer ones like Issac who were made by the Kaylons and not their biological masters.

Or if it sets up a civil war in Kaylon society, it would take some of the pressure off the Union.

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Maybe that's true of her species, but burly human men can soften their physical movements to accommodate more fragile human females so I don't know about that.  I think the point is that she loses some of that control getting caught up in the passion and heat of the moment.  Their relationship is still in that new and hot phase when that is typical.  Perhaps in time she can learn how to be more gentle.  I hope so, I'd like to see them work it out.

For John and Talla, without getting into too many details, it's a combination of factors: involuntary muscle contractions during sex, the fine line between "that feels good" and "that hurts", and Talla's strength compared to John (her planet does have gravity high enough to kill humans) which is much greater than any strength difference between human men and human women.

On 7/15/2022 at 8:14 AM, Chaos Theory said:

If you watched the underrated Alien Nation they did it better.    Humans and New Comers were just not sexually compatible in a real meaningful way so when they did want to have sex they had to "work at it" and having children was not possible at all.

I loved Alien Nation!  l seem to recall that they actually had classes for couples to attend, and it was a sticking point for Sykes at one point (and they showed same-sex couples there which was a pretty big thing in the mid/late 90s)

[hoosiermommy]

Re: Claire and Isaac—I understand the need to have an open conversation about what you need from your partner emotionally. I think maybe the writing overshot that mark. To me, it’s one thing to say, “I need this from you to be happy in this relationship” then understanding that the other person can decide if they can do that or not and then dealing with the consequences vs. “I can only love you if you change”. The first is about what I need and the second is about what you have to do.

I did find it interesting that Isaac seemed to have had his feelings backdated a few months or so.

I have missed the genuine laugh out loud moments this season and was very happy to have several of those this episode, including “They….are….awful.”

[North of Eden]

GORDON: I'll do it.

Hands down funniest line of the ENTIRE season.

Another good episode though I'm puzzled how much season 3 is Dr. Finn centric (I'll always love me some Sherri Palmer but the emphasis on the PJJ characters is puzzling).

Looking forward to the envitable episode where Issac must save Charlie and they become besties ever after.

[Bort]

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

Or if it sets up a civil war in Kaylon society, it would take some of the pressure off the Union.

Yeah that’s what I was thinking: either a civil war, thus taking the union off as the Kaylons’ primary focus, or maybe the unaffected Kaylons changing their minds from being more willing to listen to a Kaylon POV rather than a biological one.

[arjumand]

On 7/14/2022 at 11:37 AM, AnimeMania said:

When Isaac said his emotions disappeared, I thought maybe Timmis was lying about still having emotions and maybe killed Dr. Villka's father.

Too bad that when the Kaylons gained their sentience, they didn't realize that not all biological sentients were bad, even stupid Charly seemed to learn that lesson. The Kaylons killed a lot of people who couldn't afford to have robot servants and children.

That bit with the kids was really overdone and hammering the point home - you're telling me these kids went from "I want to take K1 to school" directly to "Let's torture K1 for fun!" ?

And yes, literally everyone had a robot servant? Everyone. What about babies, did they torture the Kaylons for fun, too?

I felt like this episode's message was "Genocide is ok because they were asking for it, even the kids!" But it's wrong to kill all humans, because they weren't the ones who tortured them.

And I still hate Charley. So much. Even though I kind of agree with her this episode (DAMMIT) - because no amount of sad robot collapses are going to convince me that genocide is ok.

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, hoosiermommy said:

I did find it interesting that Isaac seemed to have had his feelings backdated a few months or so.

I noticed that, too. It was as though the dam had burst and he needed to get all of those bottled-up feelings about Claire and the boys out into the open before they completely overwhelmed him.

Mark Jackson goes by the handle "markjacksonacts" on Twitter. Not only did he live up to his Twitter name in this episode, he made those three words an understatement!

[chaifan]

47 minutes ago, arjumand said:

you're telling me these kids went from "I want to take K1 to school" directly to "Let's torture K1 for fun!" ?

The one thing that wasn't clear to me is whether the kids, and even the adults, knew that what they were doing was torture.  All they knew is that they were shutting the AI down.  But there was no indication of whatever the AI equivalent of pain was.  We know they felt pain, because Timmens said so, but the flashback scenes didn't show that.  Was even that (even if there was no pain) really mean?  Sure.  But to them, it was just a machine.  It would be like us shoving the Jack back in the box, just to have it pop back up again, then shove it back in. 

So, in that sense, yes, I can see a kid shutting down a machine for fun to see it fall down and get back up. 

[ketose]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:18 PM, kariyaki said:

I was thinking Kevlar suit with a hole in the crotch. At the very least, I’m sure John was glad that Talla never broke his dick. 

That's more of a story for "The Boys."

On 7/14/2022 at 11:53 PM, Athena5217 said:

This episode reminded me of a Star Trek TNG episode called Angel One that had a plot involving a matriarchal society. 
 

Angel One came to mind, as well as the movie Bicentennial Man, which had a better outcome for the robot. 

2 hours ago, arjumand said:

That bit with the kids was really overdone and hammering the point home - you're telling me these kids went from "I want to take K1 to school" directly to "Let's torture K1 for fun!" ?

And yes, literally everyone had a robot servant? Everyone. What about babies, did they torture the Kaylons for fun, too?

I felt like this episode's message was "Genocide is ok because they were asking for it, even the kids!" But it's wrong to kill all humans, because they weren't the ones who tortured them.

And I still hate Charley. So much. Even though I kind of agree with her this episode (DAMMIT) - because no amount of sad robot collapses are going to convince me that genocide is ok.

Ironically, the Gen 1 Kaylon seem to have some emotions regarding biological life. Isaac was able to see that humans / Union members were not inclined to torture and subjugate other races, but the older Kaylons drew this line where empathy only applied to other robots. Kaylons may actually have feelings but suppressed them and upgraded the new Kaylons not to have them.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:04 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Enjoyed the min-The 100 reunion with not only Eliza Taylor playing Doctor Villka, but Christopher Larkin playing (or voicing?) Timmis.

I never watched The 100, but your mention of Chris Larkin made me remember that my daughter went to middle school with him. They were in the drama club, and "co-starred" in middle school adaptations of Hamlet and "The Importance of Being Ernest". With my husband being in the Navy, we moved soon after that, and they pretty much lost touch. And she never really kept up with her brief fling with acting, either. It seems like it's been a million years since then (well, my daughter did just turn 35 the other day), and I had practically forgotten about him until that mention of his name rang a bell that it took me a moment to place. I knew he had been in the 100, though, and was glad to hear that he had managed to make it in show business. He was always a really nice kid when I knew him.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Jynnan tonnix

[Yeah No]

12 hours ago, marceline said:

Cosign. I came away from this thinking that Claire is a very disturbed woman. I keep wondering how she can love Isaac when she finds him inadequate in every way. That's not remotely healthy. In fact the conversation between her and Kelly just seemed dysfunctional as hell. ("Isn't that what love is? Mutual sacrifice?" Me: No.) I feel like we were supposed to see similarities between Claire/Isaac and John/Talla but I think I saw them as opposite. Claire was manipulating Isaac where John and Talla were on the same page emotionally. Also, that final scene with John...that was something.

I agree.  I feel like Claire is stuck in the self defeating pattern of trying to get blood from a stone.  Like most here, I knew that Isaac's ability to feel emotion would be short lived, but I almost thought he'd go back to his non-emotional state at Claire's request because after a while she wouldn't like him as much if he could actually feel anything because he'd have needs.  It would put too much responsibility on her to reciprocate in the relationship.  I think Claire likes it that he doesn't have as many needs as a human partner so she is off the hook for having to cater them.  Claire could have been burned so badly in romantic relationships with demanding men that she is more comfortable with someone that doesn't have that many needs.  But in Isaac's case that comes along with a lack of connection on an emotional level, which leaves her unfulfilled.  Or she could have daddy issues.  Women with cold/distant/emotionally unavailable fathers can get caught in that self defeating pattern of getting involved with a similar man and then attempt to "right the wrong" by trying to change them into the opposite - a warm/relatable/emotionally available man that can fulfill their need for emotional closeness.  That rarely works, so they remain unfulfilled, which in a strange way is more comfortable for them anyway.