S03.E04: Gently Falling Rain

[paulvdb]

Quote

The Orville crew leads a Union delegation to sign a peace treaty with the Krill.

Premiere date: June 23, 2022

[AnimeMania]

[Chicago Redshirt]

This one had a pretty good balance of action, drama, comedy and allegory.  Mostly liked it. 

It's sort of a freaky coincidence that the anti-abortion bit happens to come out while we await the Supreme Court ruling that will probably throw abortion rights back years. The punishment of being forced to watch a simulated version of the child who could have been is relatively mild, but then who knows...maybe in Krill culture that is crushing. 

It seems silly that in the 2500s there could be such a thing as an accidental pregnancy. Krill must develop hella fast, because I thought we were told it was only about a year since Ed let Telaya go.

I thought for a bit that the child might also have been a setup to embarrass Telaya.

I wish we could have gotten more from Telaya. It would have been interesting to learn more about the struggles she must have gone through to have feelings for Ed that her religion says are wrong, to rise to power as an anti-human zealot while having a daughter she can't acknowledge. 

Hey, they acknowledged that Kelly and Ed had a relationship for the first time in a while.

Charly remains the worst.

[shapeshifter]

Okay. This was better. 

Especially poor Bortus getting a little car sick after the spinning upside down "helix maneuver" that Gordon invented on the spot.

Michaela McManus in Teleya's face makeup and prosthetics sure did some amazingly expressive face acting. I guess the makeup people must be using some extra flexible stuff.

They sure covered a lot of allegorical ground vis a vis current earth politics and socioeconomics.
But the final battle to retrieve the landing party seemed to have too many unseen red shirt deaths to line up with the premises of both sides' value systems (public gutting and beheading not withstanding).

So the Union won't be getting any of that fantastic Krill delicacy drink. Too bad. I bet it was chocolatey.
If I were writing the show, I'd have the Union scientists manufacture lots of it cheaply and blanket the Krill planet with unlimited amounts of the stuff. That would settle down the populace.

The child was great casting and make up, but

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Krill must develop hella fast, because I thought we were told it was only about a year since Ed let Telaya go.

--I hate the Star Child Trope of the baby becoming a 25-year-old over night. I hope they don't go there, but if they do, they better do it better than it has always been done whenever I've seen it.

Edited June 23, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Zaffy]

Well, that was definitely the best episode of the season so far.
Well made, no extra looooong sequences, the pace was good, the story was interesting, the Krill world was quite well made.
Ok Telaya was a bit over the top and the references to our current affairs a bit too obvious, but still, I really enjoyed it.

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Charly remains the worst.

yep!

Edited June 23, 2022 by Zaffy

[dwmarch]

I find myself wishing 400 years hadn't passed in real life since the last season aired. Once again we are picking up a plot thread from a season or two back that I had totally forgotten about because I didn't do a rewatch before starting on season 3. So there was a Krill lady and she had a relationship with Ed and I kinda forgot about that whole thing along with the plot from last week about the Kelly-worshipping planet. Even the Kaylon conflict is weird because it happened in the middle of season 2 and then we had a bunch more episodes and Isaac seemed to just be back to the status quo after that but six months later everyone hates him. Guess I will have to rewatch and see if this flows any better than how I remember it.

They whiffed on an Avis joke. That statue shows that he clearly tries harder.

They borrowed an idea from Neal Stephenson here. In one of his recent books (Fall, or Dodge in Hell IIRC) there is a concept of the internet being a place where there is a constant stream of fake news being generated about anyone and everyone. We see that in this episode with a deepfake of the Krill leader gassing a crowd. But if these kinds of deepfakes are so common on Krill, why would the anti-abortion PSA chamber work at all? You know it's fake when you go in. Why would a guilt trip by an imaginary child be any harder to tune out than an SPCA commercial with a sad Sarah McLachlan song playing in the background?

Did Ed and Kelly actually take a moment to kinda-sorta call out the time-travel shenanigans from the end of season 2?

[AnimeMania]

The best thing about this episode was Isaac with a moustache, I wonder if Dr. Finn helped him grow it?

I would have liked to have seen some spaceship debris rain down on the planet causing damage, so that people realize that there are real consequences of going to war. Maybe many Krill would change their tune when they see what war is like up close. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

They whiffed on an Avis joke. That statue shows that he clearly tries harder.

They borrowed an idea from Neal Stephenson here. In one of his recent books (Fall, or Dodge in Hell IIRC) there is a concept of the internet being a place where there is a constant stream of fake news being generated about anyone and everyone. We see that in this episode with a deepfake of the Krill leader gassing a crowd. But if these kinds of deepfakes are so common on Krill, why would the anti-abortion PSA chamber work at all? You know it's fake when you go in. Why would a guilt trip by an imaginary child be any harder to tune out than an SPCA commercial with a sad Sarah McLachlan song playing in the background?

I think they made an Avis joke or two during one of the earlier episodes in the series.

I don't know if the notion of streams of fake news is a particularly unique concept. In an earlier Orville episode, they touched on something similar to the fake news feed here. Our heroes had gone to what people on this board dubbed Planet Reddit, where John was accused of a crime in that he fake-humped a statue of a famous person and he risked being put to death if he couldn't win a public vote in his favor. The Orville flooded Planet Reddit's Internet equivalent with fake news about how John was a veteran who loved puppies and whatnot, and that was enough to get him off.

I'd imagine there's a difference between fake news when it's campaign ads directed at a politician and news that comes from an official government source and is directed at an individual. Also it may have to do with the subject matter: if Avis has a strict prohibition against abortion, it might be deemed as something so serious that no one would fake that. It also may be a resource issue. Trying to deepfake something might be too costly or complicated for the average Krill to accomplish, but not for a campaign.

Considering the alternatives, having to meet a holo-version of one's aborted "child" is seemingly a light punishment to me. But then again, I might be jaded or influenced by my culture. Maybe for a Krill, being confronted with the holochild is a source of unending shame and  humiliation that is worse than being imprisoned for it. 

[Chaos Theory]

Well that escalated quickly.   I love that it went from the Krill a race of basically religious vampires interpretation of Little Orphan Annie as a "Haunting Prophesy" to suddenly an all out political Coo with Teleya at the helm.   Who thought that a relationship Ed had in season 1 would still be rearing its ugly head?  Becase of course Teleya is now the leader of Krill and nixed the treaty with The Union and pretty much just restarted the war with them.  But on the uhhhh bright side the two love birds have a daughter together who neither of them get to see because well half breed child could cost the populist Teleya her base and well Ed is a human so the enemy.    God I love science fiction.

Hail Teleya!!!! because yes I voted for her.  

But also....for Anaya.

On a side note if we get a season 4 I would love to have Anaya aboard The Orville (if she isn't on board by the end of season 3) because it would be a fun dynamic watching Ed try to be a father.  It would be interesting conversations between him and Bortus.  

[blueray]

Wow that one hit very close to home, seemed like our politics right now. Though I didn't see her arresting and stabbing her component. But I guess it was a more of a government take over, as she knew that he had a lot of followers. 

I was worried there for a moment that it was going to be a cope out, but no Anaya does seem to be his daughter. She isn't ever going to be accepted on that world, maybe the Union world or the Orville. I feel like down the line, she might let them smuggle her out, in exchange of silence. Then we would get Ed being a father.

[Chaos Theory]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

. Krill must develop hella fast, because I thought we were told it was only about a year since Ed let Telaya go.

Well it could be a matter of not wanting/being able to put that much makeup on a child.  I have listened to podcasts or whatever with the actor who plays Bortus and he says it takes hours to put on his face and hours to take off.  With anyone 5 or under it would be nearly impossible to get hem to stay still for that long.  Of course if it was just a one time scene to get under Ed's skin it wouldn't really matter but it looks like Anaya is going to be a player down the road so that means finding someone who can sit in a makeup chair day in and day out.  

[shapeshifter]

40 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Well it could be a matter of not wanting/being able to put that much makeup on a child.  I have listened to podcasts or whatever with the actor who plays Bortus and he says it takes hours to put on his face and hours to take off.  With anyone 5 or under it would be nearly impossible to get hem to stay still for that long.  Of course if it was just a one time scene to get under Ed's skin it wouldn't really matter but it looks like Anaya is going to be a player down the road so that means finding someone who can sit in a makeup chair day in and day out.  

Maybe they used CGI for Anaya/Gently Falling Rain's make up?? (I love her name translation.)

[Commando Cody]

I liked the beginning when they recreated "A Million Ways To Die In The West", sort of. 

The mustache thing was a throwback to the song in the movie.

Isaac showed up with a mustache and downer Charley had to, once again, throw a wet blanket on everything.  She really sucks. They gave her more of a featured part and she just couldn't handle it.  If Seth insists on keeping her around, he needs to keep her in the background. 

Otherwise, I didn't care for the episode. I thought it really dragged. I think we were about 20 minutes into this and nothing of interest had happened.  I hate the "I didn't know I had a kid" tropes. They need to explain how fast kids grow on Krill, because she was far too old for the couple of seasons since the event.  

I did like the shot of Bortus trying not to be sick. At least we had that moment.  

[phalange]

That was not where I expected the episode to go, but it is very timely given what's happening with SCOTUS and Roe and the recent hearings about the attempted coup at the Capitol. Talaya is truly terrible, publicly executing political opponents and hiding her child away because it would harm her political ambitions. I also had the thought that pregnancy prevention would be better 400 years in the future, and it probably is for humans, but the Krill are space fundies, so if they don't believe in abortion they probably don't believe in birth control either. 

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The punishment of being forced to watch a simulated version of the child who could have been is relatively mild, but then who knows...maybe in Krill culture that is crushing. 

I took that scene as the Krill version of some laws in red states where doctors are forced to show patients ultrasounds before an abortion even against the patient's wishes.

Echoing what others said, Krill kids, like Moclan kids sure do grow quickly. Infant to elementary school age in a year or less. 

John and Talla are being flirty and I can see them together. Hope that storyline isn't dropped. 

The best part of the episode was Isaac and his mustache and cowboy hat. "This town will not accommodate the totality of our combined mass." 

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, blueray said:

Wow that one hit very close to home, seemed like our politics right now. Though I didn't see her arresting and stabbing her [opponent]. But I guess it was a more of a government take over, as she knew that he had a lot of followers. 

I appreciated the bit of red herring/Chekhovian writing of the public executions on Krill:

• Initially we shockingly see Teleya stab Supreme Chancellor Korin in the abdomen, seemingly killing him.
• Later, Teleya shocks Ed with this notification of Korin's demise: "You will find him in the center of the Capitol Square. Or at least his head."⭐
• Much later Teleya stabs President Alcuzan in front of the roaring, blood thirsty crowd, presumably killing him, but then, not much later during their escape: "I'm pleased to report that President Alcuzan is going to make a full recovery."

__________________________________

⭐Maybe Teleya did not kill Korin, and the head was a fake? She did spare Ed and her daughter.

Edited June 24, 2022 by shapeshifter

[greekmom]

I really did enjoy this episode. Reminded me of seasons 1 & 2 and not the last couple of really bad episodes.

First, talk about nepotism of Charlie being included to come down to the delegation. We all know the reason why.

Now I want Ed to initiate Directive 21 to go smuggle his daughter out from that planet, 

I don't see how those parent's situation and Teleya's would be the same.  On a xenophobic planet, I would think that they would be offering Teleya  an abortion so she can be rid of a half human child.  More like "Comrade Teleya, you done your duty to the Krill, let us fix this problem." 

I hope the Krill come knocking on Union's door if the Kaylon decide to engage them.

[Yeah No]

This was definitely an improvement over the first two weeks.  The pacing was tight and fast, almost too fast.  I hope not every episode going forward is all non-stop action all the time.  We need breaks for more moments of humor, bonding and interpersonal stuff.  But in general I liked it.  

I have a theory that the first two episodes were originally written for a one hour time slot but were later stretched out to fit the longer timeframe, thus accounting for them feeling padded out and draggy.  This episode didn't suffer from that issue at all.  

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

They whiffed on an Avis joke. That statue shows that he clearly tries harder.

Haha, when I saw that statue I said, "Well you have to admit Avis does try harder!"

Edited June 24, 2022 by Yeah No
that

[chaifan]

Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I really thought Charley was going to die in this episode.  It really seemed like it was telegraphing that, especially once she was invited to join the delegation.  Am I the only one who got that feeling?

I was a little bored, eye-rolling, with all the parallels to US politics.  A shoe-in moderate(ish) candidate bested by a populist blowhard; deep fakes in the media; religious zealots, xenophobia, politician hypocrisy...  I felt like I was getting hit over the head with a 2x4.  Subtlety isn't the writer room's strongpoint.

 All that said, I like the Krill as a counter to the Union.  

[Yeah No]

8 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I really thought Charley was going to die in this episode.  It really seemed like it was telegraphing that, especially once she was invited to join the delegation.  Am I the only one who got that feeling?

I didn't but I somehow got the feeling that maybe sometime in the future she and Ed might become a "thing" on the show to mirror real life.  To which I will vomit.  I'm already vomiting as it is.

11 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I was a little bored, eye-rolling, with all the parallels to US politics.  A shoe-in moderate(ish) candidate bested by a populist blowhard; deep fakes in the media; religious zealots, xenophobia, politician hypocrisy...  I felt like I was getting hit over the head with a 2x4.  Subtlety isn't the writer room's strongpoint.

Yeah it was very heavy handed and a little too obvious with all the direct parallels thrown in at the same time.  I was having a hard time tuning them out.

Another thing - What with the show becoming more serious it is becoming obvious that Seth doesn't have the gravitas necessary to be convincing in his role.  He was fine when the show was more of a comedy/spoof but he hasn't changed his delivery to match the tone of the new format.

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

I don't see how those parent's situation and Teleya's would be the same.  On a xenophobic planet, I would think that they would be offering Teleya  an abortion so she can be rid of a half human child.  More like "Comrade Teleya, you done your duty to the Krill, let us fix this problem." 

They care about the baby before it is born, but not so much after. I wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't stone it to death in the public square since it is not a true Krill. Mobs are going to Mob, all you have to do is point them in the right direction.

[thuganomics85]

Episode certainly wasn't afraid to go all in with the obvious similarities to recent/current U.S. Politics.  A populist candidate for president/supreme leader who uses fear and hate-mongering to find loyal followers?  An election result that everyone and their mother thought was going to go one way, but suddenly went in another direction?  The idea of fake ads and manipulated footage swaying votes?  Hell, they even found a way to bring in the current abortion debate as well.  Seth and the writers went hard for this episode!

Took me a second to remember who Teyela was.  Thought it was an interesting way to bring her back into things and make Ed question his decision to let her go when he did.  Certainly went all in with being a ruthless dictator here, but I'm guessing the final shot of her watching their daughter might be hinting that a seed is there to change her mind.  Still find it kind of funny that I usually find Michaela McManus to be spotty most of the time, but seems to be kind of great her.  Maybe she just feels more comfortable acting with prosthetics?

So, I guess this means the Krill will still be a problem going forward.  It's too bad, but I guess it would have been too easy for them and the Union to already be at peace.  But I imagine that things might change once the Kylons show back up and cause problems.

Fun seeing the other admirals again.  Still curious about their structure.  It seems obvious that Halsey/Victor Garber is in one in charge, but since Perry/Ted Danson was the one who stayed back while Ozawa/Kelly Hu went out into the frontlines after Halsey was captured, is he the second in-command?  Or maybe both of them are of equal ranking and are just responsible for different tasks?  Kind of want to see more of that: granted, it's mainly so I can see more of Garber, Danson, and Hu playing off one another.

Bruce Boxleitner playing the Union President was fun since he recently played the President on Supergirl.  I guess there's something presidential about him!

Speak for yourself, Charly!  As far as I'm concerned, it's not a true party until a cowboy hat wearing Isaac shows up with a moustache and butchers a "This town isn't big enough!" phrase!  I would much rather hang with that guy!

I guess they're hinting at a potential LaMarr/Keyali pairing?

Good episode.

[greekmom]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Bruce Boxleitner playing the Union President was fun since he recently played the President on Supergirl.  I guess there's something presidential about him!

Was that Bruce B? I was trying to figure it out and too lazy to google it.  

I agree with the poster above, Charley needs to die (or move onto another ship).

Still shipping Kelly and Ed. 

Why wouldn't they take Talla over Charley as the President of the Union is on board and would need security instead of a rando pilot? 

[Yeah No]

This article discusses the character on this episode played by Lisa Banes.  She was the actor that was hit by a car in Manhattan last year and died a month later from her injuries.  I remember this was all over the news then but never thought I'd see her here.  The person responsible was apprehended.  Lisa played Speria Balask, the representative from the Xelayan people who was supposed to take part in the Krill peace negotiations.

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/06/23/who-is-lisa-banes-on-the-orville-new-horizons/

[chitowngirl]

54 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

This article discusses the character on this episode played by Lisa Banes.  She was the actor that was hit by a car in Manhattan last year and died a month later from her injuries.  I remember this was all over the news then but never thought I'd see her here.  The person responsible was apprehended.  Lisa played Speria Balask, the representative from the Xelayan people who was supposed to take part in the Krill peace negotiations.

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/06/23/who-is-lisa-banes-on-the-orville-new-horizons/

The episode was dedicated to her

I love when Seth MacFarlane smiles. The crinkles around his eyes are adorable. And a bit OT, Hogan’s Heroes was on a sub channel last night. If they ever do a remake, Seth could easily play Hogan.

Edited June 24, 2022 by chitowngirl

[Yeah No]

2 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

The episode was dedicated to her

Yup, I know, that's how I found out she was in it.

[blueray]

I was wondering who that was. And I looked her up on wikipedia, she had a few episodes of the Orville and a DS9 episode (where I had seen her before). As well as many other shows and movies. Anyhow, that is really sad :(. At least they caught the guy who did the hit and run. 

[Zaffy]

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

Was that Bruce B? I was trying to figure it out and too lazy to google it.  

I knew this voice sounded familiar!

[arjumand]

16 hours ago, chaifan said:

Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I really thought Charley was going to die in this episode.  It really seemed like it was telegraphing that, especially once she was invited to join the delegation.  Am I the only one who got that feeling?

I was a little bored, eye-rolling, with all the parallels to US politics.  A shoe-in moderate(ish) candidate bested by a populist blowhard; deep fakes in the media; religious zealots, xenophobia, politician hypocrisy...  I felt like I was getting hit over the head with a 2x4.  Subtlety isn't the writer room's strongpoint.

 All that said, I like the Krill as a counter to the Union.  

It was definitely wishful thinking, because I was wishing it too. I've reached bitch eating crackers stage with Charley, because every time she opens her mouth and something stupid comes out, I just yell at my screen, variations of STFU.

I too found the episode heavy handed, though better than the previous ones this season. It's just that the attempts to shoehorn Charley in everywhere is ruining this season. In this episode alone, we had her

• piloting the shuttle
• not knowing who the all-important supreme deity of the warmongery planet you're going to is, because she's cool and breezy that way
• also it sets up an unfunny quip
• then she solves the entire Krill issue while sitting in jail: "but don't they KNOW that they're being stupid!"

Just, enough. ENOUGH. SHUT UP, CHARLEY.

[SmithW6079]

Please stop trying to make Charly happen. She's just awful. As an actress. As a character. It's a one-note performance (although I suppose in addition to hating Isaac she's some kind of spatial genius, but all that comes through is hating Isaac). She's like a stone in a well-worn shoe, constantly irritating your foot. However, Talla, I felt, fit right in. (In fact, I like Talla better than Alara.) Interesting that Talla and John were flirting. In the alternate timeline, John and Alara had had a relationship. Maybe he's got a thing for physically strong women.

19 hours ago, chaifan said:

Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I really thought Charley was going to die in this episode.  It really seemed like it was telegraphing that, especially once she was invited to join the delegation.  Am I the only one who got that feeling?

I was a little bored, eye-rolling, with all the parallels to US politics.  A shoe-in moderate(ish) candidate bested by a populist blowhard; deep fakes in the media; religious zealots, xenophobia, politician hypocrisy...  I felt like I was getting hit over the head with a 2x4.  Subtlety isn't the writer room's strongpoint.

 All that said, I like the Krill as a counter to the Union.  

I was totally hoping thinking that Charly was going to bite the dust too.

16 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Episode certainly wasn't afraid to go all in with the obvious similarities to recent/current U.S. Politics.  A populist candidate for president/supreme leader who uses fear and hate-mongering to find loyal followers?  An election result that everyone and their mother thought was going to go one way, but suddenly went in another direction?  The idea of fake ads and manipulated footage swaying votes?  Hell, they even found a way to bring in the current abortion debate as well.  Seth and the writers went hard for this episode!

Personally, I love how heavy-handed this episode was with regard to current issues. People need to wake the fuck up and realize the status quo is dead, and we're under attack by people of Telaya's ilk.

While I enjoyed the episode, I do kind of wonder at how easily an entire fleet of Union ships was able to penetrate Krill space and reach their homeworld without being challenged once. Presumably, the Krill home planet is deep within their territory, not right on the border.

Also, what was with Claire having to do some micro-technobabble to make them look like Krill? In the episode where Gordon and Ed go spying on a Krill ship, they used holo emitters to look like Krill, if I recall correctly, 

I kind of liked that Telaya had hoodwinked Ed that she had changed. Some people just let hate fill their lives, and she's one of them. He was responsible for her brother's death.

[GustavMahler]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:37 PM, Commando Cody said:

Isaac showed up with a mustache and downer Charley had to, once again, throw a wet blanket on everything.  She really sucks. They gave her more of a featured part and she just couldn't handle it.  If Seth insists on keeping her around, he needs to keep her in the background.

Not if he continues to want to get laid he wont.. 

[Ottis]

Opening scene wayyyyyy too long. And then the same scene (or more of it) is also too long the second time. And the flight to the alien city went on forever. This show struggles with pacing. They bragged about longer running times on Hulu, but they don’t know what to do with it.

Ottis Jr. watched Orville for the first time, this episode. He said, “It looks like a fan film.”

And it may just be me, but the special effects are looking more and more like a video game. I don't think they are as good as the show thinks they are.

But I did love Isaac’s line as sheriff.

And Seth is just not a good actor. I can’t get past that. Haven’t since season one. We laughed out loud at his look at the screen after Teleya’s speech.

The Krill have deep fakes! Oh no! The way this show feels compelled to walk viewers through every step is maddening.

The Krill have deep fakes.

Is that bad?

Yes, because they inflame populist movements.

Uh-oh, that definitely sounds bad. Because… it might… affect the… treaty?!

Why yes, it might. And that could be bad.

So that’s why we are worried!

That’s right!

Alien delicacies… “always a crap shoot!” Hope that didn’t translate!

The alien child reveal was ridiculous. Then the goofy punishment of “seeing a child who will never be.” Ottis Jr said, “This is stupid, does anyone watch this show after they make it?” And I would respect Seth more if he didn’t make his character the center of everything.

But one thing I do know, and I am calling it right now: Seth, er, I mean, Ed, and his alien love child will be the salvation of the war, at some point. Because that's how Seth rolls.

Too bad they didn’t kill Charley.

Really, when you think about it, couldn’t they have extracted the landing party without the space battle? I mean, cloaked ship, emitters to look like Krill ... and apparently no planetary defenses. The giant Union fleet was unnecessary to the plot.

Also? I guess Avis is #1 now, after decades of trying harder. Did they make that joke? if so, I apologize, I sometimes miss dialogue because I'm incredulous.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Ottis

[North of Eden]

Easily best episode of the new season and one of the best in the series.

Mines a lot of backstory from what's come before beautifully.

This episode really delivers on the new format of using as much running time as needed. Not only that you can see the budget on screen in a fully realized Krill world and all the extras. It went a long way to explaining the budget saving episode last week where the cast is wandering around a high school and empty desert. All the extra went to this extravaganza.

Some may take  issue with the more dramatic tone shift but I don't. It can still be funny when it wants to  be: Issac Mustache and Charlie's take on Avis come to mind.

Only quibble is the landing party going down with NO security...its the Union President after all! That and with exception of last week Bortus has been reduced to a glorified extra.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, North of Eden said:

Only quibble

If there were one quibble, and only one, it would have to be Charley. And that she didn't die.

But this was an extravaganza of quibbles. For a few brief seconds, like when Isaac came into the bar, or when Ed and #1 (I can never remember her character's name) giggled they were drunk after talking to the admirable, Orville shows flashes of what it was in season one. That mix of humor helps cover how bad the serious stuff is.

The worst part is, I'm pretty sure Seth thinks this is good sci-fi, with incredible special effects. His blind spot is the size of a galaxy. Casting himself as lead, casting his girlfriends, he just doesn't see it.

That chase scene in the planetary vehicle, before finding the cloaked shuttle? Looked like something from Tron ... the one in the 80s. Just awful.

But, I guess when Teleya isn't stabbing her opponents in front of crowds, she does like to spy happily on the kid she hides. So it will be OK.

[DoctorAtomic]

19 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Bruce Boxleitner playing the Union President was fun since he recently played the President on Supergirl.  I guess there's something presidential about him!

I was very excited to see his name in the credits and surprised he played under all the makeup. Let's not forget though, he was President of the Interstellar Alliance on Babylon 5 first. No way Sheridan wouldn't have had a plan out of there either. 

 I'm just not a show rewatcher because there's just so much content out there now. It's unfortunate that the show break was so long because I didn't remember Telaya until they told me about the brother. I certainly don't remember Ed doing it with her. Again, though, I like the show delving into its lore well after only two seasons of worldbuilding.

Also good for the Krill chancellor to use 'an historic' correctly. I'm always flounced when the actual news screws it up. 

On 6/23/2022 at 5:54 AM, shapeshifter said:

They sure covered a lot of allegorical ground vis a vis current earth politics and socioeconomics.

I think the technical term is 'on the nose.' A big nose at that. I wonder if Ed made the quote because he watched the infamous Breaking Bad episode of the same.

On 6/23/2022 at 5:54 AM, shapeshifter said:

Especially poor Bortus getting a little car sick after the spinning upside down "helix maneuver" that Gordon invented on the spot.

I did like the return of Gordon being the pilot that Ed recruited because he could do this. And Kelly being decisive. With quite the mouth. 

They did a really good job of showing Krill society when Ed was hustled along. 

 "Everything is different on this side of time." They're really pulling out some great lines. 

On 6/23/2022 at 10:48 AM, dwmarch said:

We see that in this episode with a deepfake of the Krill leader gassing a crowd.

Oh, it was a deepfake. I didn't make that connection. I thought they were saying the current Krill chancellor was still oppressing the Krill in general and the Union was willing to get in with him. It didn't jibe with me because the guy was otherwise nice to all the Union people. 

On 6/23/2022 at 6:12 PM, greekmom said:

I hope the Krill come knocking on Union's door if the Kaylon decide to engage them.

Oh, they're setting it up right here. Tey is going to be rejected by Admirals Victor Garber and Ted Danson and will appeal to Ed directly with the daughter. I don't mind that it's predictable. I'm looking forward to it. 

Deepfakes aside, Tey legitimately won the election, so straight up killing the prior chancellor kind of undermines the Krill government. Accusing him of treason and arresting him is more political and I can buy, but unilaterally judging and executing seems a bit much. Tey wasn't saying because she was elected that she speaks for Avis.

I also liked that Ed remembered the Krill bible to quote it to Tey. 

[shapeshifter]

11 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Please stop trying to make Charly happen. She's just awful. As an actress. As a character. It's a one-note performance (although I suppose in addition to hating Isaac she's some kind of spatial genius, but all that comes through is hating Isaac). She's like a stone in a well-worn shoe, constantly irritating your foot. . . .

Charley's spatial genius could have been used interestingly in all of these episodes. It seems like the writers resent having to write for the actor.

11 hours ago, GustavMahler said:

Not if he continues to want to get laid he wont.. 

Presumably in a post-MeToo world, an HR contract has been signed, so at least we can presume the tradeoffs are mutual, with, in the Charley actor's case: if she wants to stay on the show, she has to keep delivering crappy lines. 
Dear Seth and others: Next time you sign an HR contract with your paramour du jour, you really should get the writing team to sign on too, and by "get" them to sign on, I mean have a respectful conversation with them about it. 
Hrmmm. Maybe the Charley actor was thrown into the mix after the scripts were almost done???

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

Ottis Jr. watched Orville for the first time, this episode. He said, “It looks like a fan film.”

It's been a long time since I've watched one of my scifi shows with one of my shapeshifter Jrs, but I imagine you replied: It is a fan film.

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 I'm just not a show rewatcher because there's just so much content out there now. It's unfortunate that the show break was so long because I didn't remember Telaya until they told me about the brother. I certainly don't remember Ed doing it with her. Again, though, I like the show delving into its lore well after only two seasons of worldbuilding.

Same, and agree.

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I wonder if Ed made the quote because he watched the infamous Breaking Bad episode of the same.

Wait. What? I missed (or already forgot, heh) any BrBa reference. Refresh my memory? 

• Quick BrBa side bar: Did you see in the news that the problem of creating fusion energy may be solved with f'in' magnets? LOL
   

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Tey legitimately won the election, so straight up killing the prior chancellor kind of undermines the Krill government. Accusing him of treason and arresting him is more political and I can buy, but unilaterally judging and executing seems a bit much.

Ooo, I wonder if they'll go for a French Revolutionary, Off-With-Her-Head! kind of plot where the next Krillian political circus barker goes after Teyela, and then Teyela shows up hailing the Orville with Gently Falling Rain and her nanny, seeking refuge from Ed, precisely at the moment that he and Kelly were about to propose to each other to get remarried and have a kid of their own.

Edited June 25, 2022 by shapeshifter

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Charley's spatial genius could have been used interestingly in all of these episodes. It seems like the writers resent having to write for the actor.

Presumably in a post-MeToo world, an HR contract has been signed, so at least we can presume the tradeoffs are mutual, with, in the Charley actor's case: if she wants to stay on the show, she has to keep delivering crappy lines. 
Dear Seth and others: Next time you sign an HR contract with your paramour du jour, you really should get the writing team to sign on too, and by "get" them to sign on, I mean have a respectful conversation with them about it. 
Hrmmm. Maybe the Charley actor was thrown into the mix after the scripts were almost done???

It's been a long time since I've watched one of my scifi shows with one of my shapeshifter Jrs, but I imagine you replied: It is a fan film.

Same, and agree.

Wait. What? I missed (or already forgot, heh) any BrBa reference. Refresh my memory? 

• Quick BrBa side bar: Did you see in the news that the problem of creating fusion energy may be solved with f'in' magnets? LOL
   

Ooo, I wonder if they'll go for a French Revolutionary, Off-With-Her-Head! kind of plot where the next Krillian political circus barker goes after Teyela, and then Teyela shows up hailing the Orville with Gently Falling Rain and her nanny, seeking refuge from Ed, precisely at the moment that he and Kelly were about to propose to each other to get remarried and have a kid of their own.

Ozymandias, poem by Percy Bysshe Shelley :

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings;
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Also, Ozymandias, episode of Breaking Bad

I never actually watched Breaking Bad (sorry! but I loved Bryan Cranston's reading of the poem for the trailer, and online someone set it to an animation of the poem, very useful to me once I get to that part of my teaching syllabus), but I understand the theme of the episode is a reflection of the poem: Time passes, everyone dies, even the most powerful. Oh, and all those things you built? Yeah, Time destroys them too.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I wonder if Ed made the quote because he watched the infamous Breaking Bad episode of the same.

Yes, this answers a puzzled query I had, because Ozymandias is not the poem I'd choose to get a tyrant to reconsider their ways. Entropy is not the issue with the Krill, in my opinion- it's more about unchecked religious fundamentalism and insularity.

Also, what's starting to annoy me is the casual way they just walk into these situations, without seemingly doing a teensy bit of research or a contingency plan - like, their amazing, never seen before, earthshattering treaty depended on an ELECTION?? What? The President of the Union and co. couldn't wait like half an hour for the results to come in? Ugh.

Re. Charley, the idea that the writers resent having to give her dialogue is an interesting one: would certainly explain why she comes across as so annoying all the time. Still, where is the network? Or isn't Hulu really a network in that sense (not USian here)? Because I'd expect the network to come back with so many notes, all starting with "this character is unrelatable and annoying."

Edited June 25, 2022 by arjumand

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, arjumand said:

Re. Charley, the idea that the writers resent having to give her dialogue is an interesting one: would certainly explain why she comes across as so annoying all the time. Still, where is the network? Or isn't Hulu really a network in that sense (not USian here)? Because I'd expect the network to come back with so many notes, all starting with "this character is unrelatable and annoying."

I'm in the US but I am no expert on the workings of Hulu. I'm pretty sure Hulu is still just "a streaming service" and that "original content" is something Hulu "owns" but in which Hulu does not engage in an active, supervisory role.
Probably Hulu just has contracts with Seth, Disney, et al. that primarily make sure there's no liability for Hulu with regards to content or production. 

Oooo. Possibly interesting:

• "Filming began in October 2019" (wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orville_(season_3)#Production)

but:

• The hiring of Anne Winters (Charly) was not announced until November 2019 (deadline.com/2019/11/the-orville-anne-winters-cast-series-regular-season-3-seth-macfarlane-1202777345)

I may be reading too much salaciousness into this.
Perhaps Winters was hired before she and Seth had a relationship?
Regardless, actors are humans, and humans are going to human.

Edited June 25, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Tey legitimately won the election, so straight up killing the prior chancellor kind of undermines the Krill government. Accusing him of treason and arresting him is more political and I can buy, but unilaterally judging and executing seems a bit much. Tey wasn't saying because she was elected that she speaks for Avis.

We don't really know if Tey won the election fair and square. The ex-Chancellor and his people had projections that showed them to be pretty well ahead, and then things tightened, and then the Chancellor was insistent that there was fraud and planned to contest the results with the Council of Clerics. Was that the misguided assumptions of a narcissistic and overconfident buffoon who couldn't accept that he had lost? Was it an accurate assessment that there was actual fraud? Were the Chancellor's earlier projections right or just wishful thinking? Was Teylana able to make a strong last minute push in key districts to pull off an upset? The show doesn't give us enough to go on either way.

Despite getting more insight into how Krill culture might work, we also don't know that killing the former chancellor undermines the Krill government. Maybe killing the former leader is how Krill succession generally works. Or maybe it's OK in this instance because ex-chancellor was deemed a blasphemer.

At a guess, it makes any questions about Tey's victory moot. The only viable challenger to her authority is gone. In fact, the quick killing suggests that she might not have won fair and square, because from a human perspective you might want to allow any challenges to your victory to be answered before assuming power. .

Also, if one believes in Tey's rhetoric and the prevailing view of the teachings of Avis, Krill supremacy is at the core of their beliefs and the former chancellor posed as existential a threat to the Krill way as the Kaylon by siding with unbelievers. Her target audience was bloodthirsty, so unilaterally judging and executing is exactly what they want. 

And to me, Tey was absolutely saying that she was going to bring the Krill to Avis again after her predecessor lost the Krill way. She didn't seem to be suggesting that she and Avis have daily chitchat, but I think it was clear that she was claiming to be fighting in Avis's name and that her predecessor deserved death because he was dishonoring the path set out for the Krill by their gospel.

[Welshman in Ca]

13 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We don't really know if Tey won the election fair and square. The ex-Chancellor and his people had projections that showed them to be pretty well ahead, and then things tightened, and then the Chancellor was insistent that there was fraud and planned to contest the results with the Council of Clerics. Was that the misguided assumptions of a narcissistic and overconfident buffoon who couldn't accept that he had lost? Was it an accurate assessment that there was actual fraud? Were the Chancellor's earlier projections right or just wishful thinking? Was Teylana able to make a strong last minute push in key districts to pull off an upset? The show doesn't give us enough to go on either way.

Despite getting more insight into how Krill culture might work, we also don't know that killing the former chancellor undermines the Krill government. Maybe killing the former leader is how Krill succession generally works. Or maybe it's OK in this instance because ex-chancellor was deemed a blasphemer.

At a guess, it makes any questions about Tey's victory moot. The only viable challenger to her authority is gone. In fact, the quick killing suggests that she might not have won fair and square, because from a human perspective you might want to allow any challenges to your victory to be answered before assuming power. .

Also, if one believes in Tey's rhetoric and the prevailing view of the teachings of Avis, Krill supremacy is at the core of their beliefs and the former chancellor posed as existential a threat to the Krill way as the Kaylon by siding with unbelievers. Her target audience was bloodthirsty, so unilaterally judging and executing is exactly what they want. 

And to me, Tey was absolutely saying that she was going to bring the Krill to Avis again after her predecessor lost the Krill way. She didn't seem to be suggesting that she and Avis have daily chitchat, but I think it was clear that she was claiming to be fighting in Avis's name and that her predecessor deserved death because he was dishonoring the path set out for the Krill by their gospel.

Isn't that how most dictators get to be dictators ? History has a nasty habit of repeating itself anywhere but I doubt Seth thinks that deeply & this was just directed at a certain country & person.

[Ottis]

3 hours ago, arjumand said:

Entropy is not the issue with the Krill, in my opinion- it's more about unchecked religious fundamentalism and insularity.

The point of that poem, though, is that anything that believes it is more important than everything else - whether it is a single leader, or a political party, or a species, or a religious movement - ultimately all ends up in the same place, forgotten sand in the river of time. In other words, you ain't as important as you think you are.

My issue with use of that poem, and it has been cited in many TV shows and movies, is that while in the fullness of time the self-important stuff ends and is forgotten, that over the next year, or 10 years, or 100 years, *some* of that stuff rules and tramples on other people and *is* important. So Ozy really only works in a specific use - when a movement claims it will last 1000 years, or is morally superior to anything else. Your passing religious uprisings, or tyrant leaders, it doesn't really work.

I lost interest in the overly long 3 or 4 sections of Tey speaking, but I don't recall her saying her movement will last 1000 years, etc. But I could have missed it through inattention.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Ottis

[Ceindreadh]

Going to sign a treaty on a planet where the guy you're signing it with might be out of office before he gets his pen out.  Sure, what could possibly go wrong.

I thought that was going to be the stupidest thing on the episode and then they had them all standing around in the shuttle.

Charley tells them it's going to be bumpy, and they just stand there.

Later on during their escape, the president is sitting down, but the rest are just standing around so they can what, get a better look at the viewscreen? 

Idiots the lot of them.

[Colorado David]

Definitely felt like a coup and not a genuine election - one screen says Tel won and that's enough to go on to kill the previous leader? WOW. Ultimate faith in your voting machines there (cough). 

Agree with Ottis above, the extended flythroughs are just trying to show off visual effects and do appear quite video-gamey. They have to be compelling though in some way, otherwise the viewer (myself included) get bored after 30 seconds of trench/canyon/asteroid flying.  Pew pew pew. The ship shapes aren't interesting enough to grab my attention, and forgive me but that new fighter looks very suppository-like. It's not interesting watching it spin round and round.

I hope the actress that plays Charley doesn't read this forum, this would bother me greatly if I was legit trying to do well and had all the condemnation.  or maybe it will incite me to go to the writers and demand better.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Colorado David
spelling

[Jynnan tonnix]

With all the people who expected Charley to bite the dust, I'm surprised no one (unless I missed it) mentioned the bit where they had the whole delegation out on the balcony, and Teleya, pulling out her knife, teased about who was going to be the first to die. Am I the only one who blurted "Charley!" out loud?

[Lugal]

This one was better than the previous ones, and it didn't feel stretched, like the earlier eps.  Always fun to see the Admirals, and Victor Garber had more to do in this one as well which is always fun.

I also thought the Ozymandias line worked against Krill hubris.  They think they don't need the Union and that they can take on the Union and the Kaelons at the same time and win.

On 6/23/2022 at 10:55 PM, AnimeMania said:

They care about the baby before it is born, but not so much after.

We did see the beggars in the public square.  But I'm sure it's the "will of Avis" The Krill: the galaxy's biggest spiritual bypassers.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We don't really know if Tey won the election fair and square. The ex-Chancellor and his people had projections that showed them to be pretty well ahead, and then things tightened, and then the Chancellor was insistent that there was fraud and planned to contest the results with the Council of Clerics. Was that the misguided assumptions of a narcissistic and overconfident buffoon who couldn't accept that he had lost? Was it an accurate assessment that there was actual fraud? Were the Chancellor's earlier projections right or just wishful thinking? Was Teylana able to make a strong last minute push in key districts to pull off an upset? The show doesn't give us enough to go on either way.

I get the feeling it was a little of all the options.  The Chancellor did not think he could lose and then when he did he prepared to contest the results which seemed to be the standard procedure.  Then Teleya pronounced him guilty of treason and executed him right there.

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

That chase scene in the planetary vehicle, before finding the cloaked shuttle? Looked like something from Tron ... the one in the 80s. Just awful.

Well Bruce Boxleitner was in this ep and 80's Tron.  My first reaction was: seriously, that was him under the makeup?

4 hours ago, arjumand said:

like, their amazing, never seen before, earthshattering treaty depended on an ELECTION?? What? The President of the Union and co. couldn't wait like half an hour for the results to come in? Ugh.

I can see both sides there.  If they aren't by his side at the moment he won, he could see it as they doubt him, and thus endanger the treaty.  And if they were by his side when he won, well, we saw how that worked out for them.

17 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Please stop trying to make Charly happen. She's just awful. As an actress. As a character. It's a one-note performance (although I suppose in addition to hating Isaac she's some kind of spatial genius, but all that comes through is hating Isaac).

I have nothing against Anne Winters, but yeah, she does come off one note.  For someone who's such a spatial genius, when it come to Isaac her thinking is pretty one dimensional (that he is Kaelon, therefore evil) and leaves no room for nuance.  If we see her thinking in unusual ways or contributing something it'd be one thing, but she's mostly there to snarl at Isaac and fly the ship.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Maybe killing the former leader is how Krill succession generally works.

He looked surprised about getting stabbed to me. I said undermined in the sense that some other opposition Krill might think instead of running for office, they'll just stab their opponent. 

I didn't get the vibe that the election wasn't legitimate. She used the deepfakes to sway public opinion, but I think she won those key seven districts they were talking about. The problem and the point of the allegory imo was the incumbent thinking the upstart populist was just bloviating and not recognizing the groundswell.

I think the allegory works better and has more impact if the election was in fact legitimate. 

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Colorado David said:

I hope the actress that plays Charley doesn't read this forum, this would bother me greatly if I was legit trying to do well and had all the condemnation.  or maybe it will incite me to go to the writers and demand better.

It's both, IMO. The robot hatred trope is the writing, so is the lack of showing her using her supposed genius interspatial skills. But also, her line reading choices are flat and uninteresting. When they escape the planet and suddenly burst into the space battle, her line is, "Well that doesn't look good." And that is exactly what she says, with almost no voice inflection. Even a simple, "Well - THAT doesn't look good" (which in my head I hear Gordon saying it that way), with an emphasis on "THAT" (which would have empathized with the viewing audience, who are also suddenly confronted with the battle at the same time) would have been better acting. It's not her fault that she got the role, it is Seth's, but she needs to at least make it look like she is trying.

2 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

I thought that was going to be the stupidest thing on the episode and then they had them all standing around in the shuttle.

And here is the kind of inconsistency Orville does 5 times an episode that means it is *not* good scifi. On the smaller shuttle, it seems to be OK if they stand up, no impact on them at all as the shuttle escapes the planet. But on the larger Orville, with what has to be inertial dampeners, Gordon does the "double helix maneuver" and Bortus almost throws up. Which is it, show?

BTW, Gordon was told to do evasive maneuvers. Why does he have to ask permission to do one in the midst of the battle? Does he ask if he can turn left or right or do a 180 (as we saw)? It's a cheesy line to set up Bortus looking barfy, and it makes no logical sense.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Ottis

[tkc]

Bruce Boxleitner! Now if Mira Furlan (RIP) were still alive, she could have put Teleya in her place.

(It’s funny that BB headlined a show — Babylon 5 — that was filled with actors unrecognizable under their prosthetics, and now here he is with us going, “Was that really Bruce Boxleitner?!”)

This episode may have been better than some of the earlier ones this season, but the show still has a ways to go, to my mind.

I don’t like to say negative things about shows generally (yes, I know, so why am I here? 😄), but I must say that This show has really morphed from its “sci-fi drama cake with comedy frosting” beginnings. Personally, I feel that if they are going emphasize the drama side more, they should really improve their baking skills.

It’s great that they’re doing an homage to Star Trek with this show, but in the ‘80s, Gene Roddenberry picked a renowned Shakespearean actor in Patrick Stewart to play the lead. Here…

Edited June 25, 2022 by tkc

[Ottis]

7 minutes ago, tkc said:

This episode may have been better than some of the earlier ones this season, but the show still has a ways to go, to my mind.

Everything in your post I completely agree with. I'll just add about this specific observation, that Orville *did* have it right in season one. The humor masked the deficiencies in the straight scifi. The show was an homage to Star Trek, but had its own, unique perspective, with sometimes crude lines. It worked.

I can only assume Seth's ego got the better of him, and in addition to casting himself as the lead, having his character be at the center of every important development, casting at least two of his girlfriends, going to Hulu and touting special effects and longer running times that are atrocious and padding, respectively, he *also* decided Orville would be "real scifi." And it isn't. I wonder if he knows?

Edited June 25, 2022 by Ottis

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Lugal said:

I have nothing against Anne Winters, but yeah, she does come off one note.  For someone who's such a spatial genius, when it come to Isaac her thinking is pretty one dimensional (that he is Kaelon, therefore evil) and leaves no room for nuance.  If we see her thinking in unusual ways or contributing something it'd be one thing, but she's mostly there to snarl at Isaac and fly the ship.

Charly could be an interesting character if we saw more of her ability to see space in four dimensions.
[shapeshifter googles four dimensional space] Oooh! Poor writers. Seriously. Look: wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space
The show needs a mathematics consultant like the science consultants they had for The Big Bang Theory.

Continuing to have Charly voice contempt for Isaac has to be going somewhere, right?
Like Isaac saves her by throwing himself on a bomb or something? 

Edited June 25, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Colorado David]

In a future twist,  Charly figures out a way to strand Isaac in a weird pocket of 4 dimensional space, and Ed and the rest are stumped in trying to find him. So they assume he's gone, and we're back to the evil Kaelon storyline. Problem solved - less lines for Charly now, without Isaac to complain about, and the initial villains remain the initial villains.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Colorado David