S04.E09: Chapter Nine: The Piggyback

[Clanstarling]

47 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

 I love love Hopper. If he had stayed dead, I would have missed him but I would not have been mad at all. I thought it was brave of them to write off such a beloved character but it's just become what they do in terms of pulling punches.

I don't know if they had any outside influence to keep Hopper alive, but I did think that by bringing him back, it devalued his sacrifice. Not that I'm upset to have him back - it was just a great ending with a huge impact, and then "oh hey, guess what, he just jumped off the platform"

[overtherainbow]

1 hour ago, Racj82 said:

I watch shows to watch shows. I'm sorry if that would be hard for you.  For one thing, we have been watching teenagers die throughout this whole tv series so we are still watching kids die during our entertainment whether they are main characters or not. Two, I personally don't input real life into my fictional watching. I may notice it. In that sometimes it may be a rough occurrence that certain topics come up during certain timeframes. There will never be a good time to watch kids die. It doesn't matter what is going on in the world. These kids are in a very dark and very violent battle. I don't want punches being pulled to make others happy. It's amazing how many stories I've realized over the years had much better arcs or endings in place that were scrapped because fans weren't happy. They wanted a happy ending. Justice! I just want people to tell the story they want to tell. Sometimes it may be rough but I don't want writers to coddle me. I just want them to write good stories. Just speaking for myself. In the end I want to see our heroes win but I don't expect them all to survive. I love love Hopper. If he had stayed dead, I would have missed him but I would not have been mad at all. I thought it was brave of them to write off such a beloved character but it's just become what they do in terms of pulling punches.

I loved this ride. I can't relate to people that have issues with the run time or various nitpicks. This was my summer blockbuster. I love it. I was engrossed. I'm so invested in these characters. Certain people who don't like the show write it off as just 80s porn but it's so much more. Just like all the best the shows and movies, the characters and your investment in them come first. For me anyway. So, I was with this story every step of the way. I don't care about the run time. Give me a engrossing story and I will stay there as long they like. It's going to be a couple of years at minimum to get this show back. I'm just happy they returned and with renewed purpose.

I agree. The cast is getting too big, tbh I'm surprised they didn't kill off more than just Eddie but you just know audiences would throw a massive fit if it was Steve or Hopper. Nancy continues to annoy me but there's too much with her and Steve still. Jonathan was a big meh for me this season, I wouldn't have minded if he had been killed off.

I didn't mind how long it was, it made it less easy to binge because I treated each episode like watching a movie. This season didn't quite do it for me like the first one but it defintely tops the last two.

Edited July 3, 2022 by overtherainbow

[foxfreakinmulder]

37 minutes ago, Vella said:

Why was the El/Hopper reunion so flat? DH/MBB have a great dynamic, so how was that not given the time and energy it deserved? Eleven should have been thunderstruck by his reveal, it should have been way more monumental and emotional.

I agree. That was the one reunion I was looking forward to the most and you're right it fell flat. No where have you been, how are you alive? El said she left the door open 3 inches and something else, then said he looked different.

I can't help but wonder if the pizza place is wondering where their van and employee disappeared to lol.

[Ellaria]

Wow! I still love these characters. Sadie, Caleb and Gaten were absolutely terrific. I assume (hope) that Max will be back. And Steve is still with us; thank goodness. 

I hate that we lost Eddie. Joseph Quinn brought a lot of humor and charisma to the role. And yes, he is a hero.

I enjoyed the finale but it was a LOT. I wish that these characters were brought together sooner. That’s really the show’s strength.

The Russia plot line amounted to little and too much time was spent there. At least we got to see Jaqen again.

Overall, I was skeptical that this show would hold my interest after being gone for so long. I was pleasantly surprised with this season and realize that I am invested in these characters. However, I think that these episodes were too long, for the most part. I hope that the Duffers can find a way to end this wonderful story in a more concise way.

[Racj82]

2 hours ago, Aquarius97 said:

I can't see how the Wheeler's leave Hawkins before Mike returns, specially given that they can't even communicate with him

I wasn't talking about before he got back. They don't seem to have any plans to leave and the mom is talking about never letting him leave there for anything. That is what i'm talking about.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know if they had any outside influence to keep Hopper alive, but I did think that by bringing him back, it devalued his sacrifice. Not that I'm upset to have him back - it was just a great ending with a huge impact, and then "oh hey, guess what, he just jumped off the platform"

Yeah, from the moment they started teasing he wasn't dead I was disappointed. Don't get me wrong, it's not about me wanting to see any one character dead. It just kills the stakes when you feel like so many characters are safe. If it's Duffer's choice, fair play. I just don't want them doing it due to outside influence. 

[janie jones]

On 7/1/2022 at 11:32 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Dustin's scene with Mr. Munson was fantastic.  Gaten Matarazzo was amazing in that moment.

I thought this was a good scene other than the fact that Mr. Munson wouldn't have had any idea what Dustin was talking about. As far as he knows, Eddie died in the earthquake. And Dustin is talking about him fighting to the end and not giving up or whatever. But what would he have been not giving up on in an earthquake? Not falling in the opening?

On 7/1/2022 at 9:55 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I won't hijack the thread by trying to debate, but it doesn't kill the debate for me - at least, not completely.

I mean, sure, the hints have been very 'on the nose' and likely are what they look like, but after 2.5 to 3 seasons of these hints now, why won't they just make it official already - even if basically to just those of us in the audience.  Johnathon could have told Will that he knows how Will really feels about Mike, instead we are left with the always ambiguous "You can can talk with/to me, about anything".

Plus, to me, it's pretty obvious that Will is gay, but that doesn't mean he isn't also a late bloomer/delayed in his maturity. Like, he wants to play games with his friends all day. He doesn't seem to be ready to be growing up.

On 7/2/2022 at 1:24 AM, Mediocre Gatsby said:

I thought at least one character would point out that maybe Max is better off in a coma while her two broken arms and two broken legs heal! I thought she was a goner as soon as her limbs started breaking. I couldn't tell if she realized that it wasn't Lucas she was talking to (who was judging her about wishing that Billy would be out of her life) -- I hope so. 

I'm sure she did. His eyes turned white and then he turned into Vecna.

On 7/2/2022 at 5:29 AM, backhometome said:

Lucas/Max >>>>> Mike/El

Totally. Mike/El is the relationship I care the least about.

On 7/2/2022 at 6:23 AM, raven said:

The irony is that if her friends hadn't been trying to kill his physical body in Hawkins, El may have killed him in the upside down.

Robin, Steve, and Nancy were in the upside down, and El and 001 were in Max's mind. Would El have been able to kill him?

[DrSpaceman73]

Will was pretty useless this season until the end with the spider sense

I thought Eddie dying was the pretty obvious choice.  New character added to the group for a season long arc. 

How much as you have to Hate him the stereoryoical jock basketball player is actually RIGHT for once.  There is underlying evil in the town. He was just wrong about it being Eddie. 

Robin's love interest is obviously meant to be Molly Ringwald. 

Could have easily broken up that last episude into 2 or 3 episodes. 

Really seemed like a lot trying to pack into a season stories all over the place. 

[Kel Varnsen]

31 minutes ago, janie jones said:

thought this was a good scene other than the fact that Mr. Munson wouldn't have had any idea what Dustin was talking about. As far as he knows, Eddie died in the earthquake. And Dustin is talking about him fighting to the end and not giving up or whatever. But what would he have been not giving up on in an earthquake? Not falling in the opening?

I am not even sure he knows that, since Dustin's story was super vague. As far as he knows his nephew skipped town as he was wanted for murder. It made me sad that they couldn't recover his body from the Upsidedown, but that would mean coming up with a convincing death story. 

32 minutes ago, janie jones said:

Robin, Steve, and Nancy were in the upside down, and El and 001 were in Max's mind. Would El have been able to kill him?

Now that I think of it, I wonder if El could have used her powers to be standing next to Nancy (instead of standing next to Max and Lucas) and then used her telekinetic powers to kill Vecna while he was in his trance?

[Racj82]

6 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I think they can kill whoever they want in season five because they won't have to worry about audience retention or whatever, but they have spinoff plans that might be contributing to them sparing some of these people. It seemed from Millie Bobby Brown's pre-season comments that the Duffers also just don't want to kill off their beloved main characters.

There is no, this is the end, we can do whatever we want. Especially not now. Look at Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Games of Thrones. 90 percent of the discussion about the shows are about the finale. What it did and didn't do. Who died and who didn't. Nailing the ending is more important than anything. So, knowing that, there will also be the temptation to do as little as possible to piss people off. I'm not saying the Duffer Brothers are doing this or have to. I'm just saying it's risky to do anything against sending us away happy. This show is in the position where no death will go without anger. I just don't want them to be worried about that.

In regards to this finale, I'm glad that the secret is out there now. People don't know all the details but the fight is on everyone's doorsteps now. No more burying their heads in the sand.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Racj82

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, Vella said:

Oof. This season was a lot of too much, too much, too much and not enough.

Too much money, episodes too long, plot too thin, too much plot and not enough character development. So many characters got next to no character development. How many times did Will just stand there in a scene? Dustin, despite his screen time and lines, really got nothing either. Mike got very little, so did Lucas. Jonathan goes with nothing.

There was so much that didn't happen. So many opportunities to have characters TALK to each other but instead it was just plot focused so much of the time. It's utterly pathetic that Will and Jonathan were in EVERY episode together but didn't have a relevant conversation with each other until episode 9. That  Mike and Nancy couldn't get 15 seconds to reunite and hug each other. That Lucas and Erica didn't get a moment after everything even though she was in Max's hospital room when Lucas was reading out loud. Why not have Lucas finish and before everyone else arrives, they take 2 minutes and connect? Why didn't anyone but Dustin get to react to Eddie's death? Why did it take 9 episodes before Argyle became useful? Why was the El/Hopper reunion so flat? DH/MBB have a great dynamic, so how was that not given the time and energy it deserved? Eleven should have been thunderstruck by his reveal, it should have been way more monumental and emotional. Despite having all these supersized episodes, character content was either not there or squeezed into a tight frame.

The Russia plot was easily the biggest drain and entirely pointless. They could have cut half the time, had Hopper, Joyce and Murray stateside by episode 5. The Salt Lake City divergent could have been cut completely and just had the dying agent tell the California crew the coordinates. Jason and the jock squad could have been cut. Yuri could have been cut. The bullying could have been cut. I think Matthew Modine is great, but Brenner should have stayed dead and only used for flashbacks when Eleven was remembering her past with Owens helping her. The wall of videos was right there!

The Duffers clearly need someone to steer the ship. Someone to say "cut this down" or "cut this completely" or "bring them back together sooner" or "this is taking too long".

They need to go back to the tightness and control of Season 1 and 2. Season 3 is where things started to get out of hand, and it's just gotten worse with Season 4.

I disagree with most of what you said but I said it before during the first batch of episodes we got. I challenge the Duffer bros to not split up the group at all. They don't need to all be in the same room at the same time but they all need to be engaged in others peoples plots. No splitting up and meeting up in episode 8 as a group. This one big team. Keep the team together. As I write this, I'm willing to concede that part of these very separate missions for the cast may have been covid based. Covid restrictions along with the growing amount of work for the cast must create major writing challenges. 

But, we've been waiting for a long as time for this season and they delivered content in spades.

I appreciate the running time allowing beats to sit. Moments to set in. I was riveted the whole time. I also do think longer episodes may have partially been to deter people from constantly binging while not switching up the release schedule too much. People keep saying why don't they go week to week but that would piss a bunch of people off that are used to their binge model. It's not something netflix will ever totally be able to moonwalk away from. Most people would wait until it was all out and binge anyway.

[Racj82]

5 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I agree. That was the one reunion I was looking forward to the most and you're right it fell flat. No where have you been, how are you alive? El said she left the door open 3 inches and something else, then said he looked different.

I think you are kind of short changing what actually went on during the reunion but it did feel a bit off. But, El was never going to be prepared for that moment due the lack communication on both sides. I'm just glad they are back together. To me it felt more like David Harbour and Millie Bobbie Brown being happy to spend time together again than Hopper reuniting with El after presumed death. So, I found it sweet and they had good banter but the heavy emotion wasn't there past the first hug.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Racj82

[bunnyblue]

2 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I agree. That was the one reunion I was looking forward to the most and you're right it fell flat. No where have you been, how are you alive? El said she left the door open 3 inches and something else, then said he looked different.

Yeah, I found their reunion underwhelming for the exact reasons you stated.  They talked about having the same haircut and keeping the door open. They talked as if Hopper had been away on a long business trip. That wasn't the emotional reunion I'd been eagerly anticipating. And El saying she "never gave up hope" or something like that. Where in this overly bloated season did El express any feelings that Hopper might be alive?? DH and MBB gave it all they had but the writing just wasn't there. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by bunnyblue

[blueray]

On 7/2/2022 at 11:09 PM, DearEvette said:

My two big questions...now that I think on it...

El is still wearing that flower thermal top and white jeans when she reunites with Hopper.  They look pristine.  But she had been immersed in salty water.  They should have been a bit crusty and stiff looking, LOL.  And frankly uncomfortable riding in sopping wet clothes across the country.

This bothered me. I noticed it right away. Like seriously, Nancy couldn't let her borrow something. 

Anyhow, on to more important points. I saw Eddies death coming and knew for sure he was a goner once he left Dustin. But seriously cutting the sheet down? This lead to Dustin hurting himself and how did they get back out? 

I was disappointed that Will and Johnathan basically had no purpose this season. Like they actually did nothing. I did like the scene they had together. But other then that, they might as well not have even been in the season. Mike also didn't do much, but he at least did get through to Eleven when it mattered. And resulted in her "saving" Max and the town for now.

The Russian storyline dragged on way to long. And we didn't even see their final escape. I guess they took that "plane" back to Alaska? I did however like how not knowing it Hopper, Joyce and Murray saved Steve, Nancy and Robin. If they didn't hurt the demogordans the veins wouldn't have left go. I am glad Hopper and Joyce finally kissed :).

Lastly, everyone else. There plan was interesting but obviously didn't work. I really thought they were going to Kill Max. The actor who plays Lucas nailed it.  I was so sick of those jock characters. Then the one attacked Erika (an 11 year old girl). That bothered me. Then of course Jason was really going to shoot Lucas. When Jason was cut in half, I wasn't sure what I saw was what happened. It was so fast and nobody reacted. But I guess Lucas & Erika were busy with Max to notice. 

P.S I was so happy Steve made it out a live this season.

Lastly the reunions were great. Especially Eleven and hoppers. I loved how obvious the wheelers still are. They are just home watching the news, when most of their town is leaving in cars. When they were packing the car, I thought they were also leaving but nope.

Then there was the ending. I thought it was going to end with Wills criptic message. But then it showed the upsidedown coming into the town...

Overall, a pretty good season. I'm looking forward to season 5. 

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

Yeah, I found their reunion underwhelming for the exact reasons you stated.  They talked about having the same haircut and keeping the door open. They talked as if Hopper had been away on a long business trip. That wasn't the emotional reunion I'd been eagerly anticipating. And El saying she "never gave up hope" or something like that. Where in this overly bloated season did El express any feelings that Hopper might be alive?? DH and MBB gave it all they had but the writing just wasn't there. 

My headcannon on that is that once Eleven got her powers back she was searching for everyone. She may have even tried Hopper, as she really hoped he was out there. To her surprise she found him. So she isn't surprised to see him at all but happy. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by blueray

[Blue Plastic]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:23 PM, Aquarius97 said:

I don't think Jason showing up changed anything with Max, but really glad that he basically got split up by the gate (that was super weird).

I was so glad to see that because he’s really dead. That character’s exit couldn’t come soon enough for me. I hated all the angry jocks. Jason was a POS and a bad boyfriend.  And the one who grabbed Erica was really creepy, too. What a shit thing to do.

This whole season had pacing problems to me. Not sure why we had to wait to get the finale. That killed some of the momentum.  The Russia scenes (and angry jock scenes) still made time slow to a crawl.  The final confrontations between El and “Papa” and El and Vecna felt kind of drawn out unnecessarily, as if the assignment was to force the final episode to be 2-1/2 hours long, so there was lots of:

Vecna:  Mwahaha, you have lost and I have won!

El (slowly being pinned to the front door by Vecna’s vines):  Whimper.

Vecna:  Ha ha ha, how does it feel to know that you have lost and I have won?

(Max gets pulled up slowly and trapped by vines in the background.)

El:  Cries.

Vecna:  I am going to make you watch your friends die now because you have lost and I have won!

Etc.

Enjoyed seeing the reunions we did get, and there was good use of El’s mind travel to cover the gaps (and other ways of working together long distance), but it still would have been nice not to have the groups so separated right at the end.

[Morrigan2575]

11 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But I do think there seemed to be loss of nerve around killing Max, just like there was with Hopper in season 3. Whether that is because of fear of fan backlash or because they are just too attached to those characters and/or actors, I don't know. But given the set up, they are going to have to do something with Max beyond having her in a coma in season 5.

I'd be fine with it, they don't have to kill characters I'd be happy if all of them survived.  The problem (for me) comes when they do these fake out,. Hopper's dead oh no wait he's a prisoner in Russia. Max is dead, oh no wait El brought her back (somehow) and she will probably wake up all better (even though she had 4 broken limbs and was blinded).

The thing is none of it had to get that far, they could have written it in a way that they got their surprise loss without faking out killing max. 

[peachmangosteen]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:28 PM, Cranberry said:

I don't watch shows like this for realism. I watch shows like this as a fun escape from real life. I don't care if it's more realistic for these kids to die. I don't want to see dead kids when I'm watching my fun summer TV shows. There's enough of that on the news.

I also don't get the impression that the Duffers are afraid to kill characters. I think they just don't want to. Didn't they intend to kill Steve in season one but kept him around because they loved the character and the actor so much? 

This. Also, I'm glad shows have mostly stopped thinking it's cool and edgy to kill of their main characters and that killing off main characters is the only way to give plots weight/stakes. 

On 7/4/2022 at 6:57 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I'd be fine with it, they don't have to kill characters I'd be happy if all of them survived.  The problem (for me) comes when they do these fake out,. Hopper's dead oh no wait he's a prisoner in Russia. Max is dead, oh no wait El brought her back (somehow) and she will probably wake up all better (even though she had 4 broken limbs and was blinded).

The thing is none of it had to get that far, they could have written it in a way that they got their surprise loss without faking out killing max. 

I do agree with this though. I actually think it worked for Max and really her being paralyzed, blind, and without her soul in her body is FAR worse than death. But with Hopper, I really think that was a mistake. But I don't really care, I'm glad he's alive lol.

Oh also, as for Will having nothing to do this season, I do agree with that plot-wise. But he got a lot of character moments and since I'm here for characters over plot, I appreciated that.

[Ellaria]

11 hours ago, Racj82 said:

There is no, this is the end, we can do whatever we want. Especially not now. Look at Lost, Battlestar Galactica, Games of Thrones. 90 percent of the discussion about the shows are about the finale. What it did and didn't do. Who died and who didn't. Nailing the ending is more important than anything. So, knowing that, there will also be the temptation to do as little as possible to piss people off. I'm not saying the Duffer Brothers are doing this or have to. I'm just saying it's risky to do anything against sending us away happy. This show is in the position where no death will go without anger. I just don't want them to be worried about that.

Agree. Nailing the ending is most important. As mentioned, there are plenty of shows that could not do that. The Duffers need to tell the story that they want to tell without worrying about the viewers. Stay true to their intent.

11 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I disagree with most of what you said but I said it before during the first batch of episodes we got. I challenge the Duffer bros to not split up the group at all. They don't need to all be in the same room at the same time but they all need to be engaged in others peoples plots. No splitting up and meeting up in episode 8 as a group. This one big team. Keep the team together. 

Yes. I’ve been saying this from the start of the season. Keep them together. Let them fight evil together. That’s when the show is at its best.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[CrowTRobot]

9 hours ago, blueray said:

I saw Eddies death coming and knew for sure he was a goner once he left Dustin. But seriously cutting the sheet down? This lead to Dustin hurting himself and how did they get back out? 

The Russian storyline dragged on way to long. And we didn't even see their final escape. 

I also figured Eddie was done for and was bummed when it happened.  And I also wondered how Dustin and the others got out of the UD afterwards.  I had actually also thought they were going to kill off Robin because I felt they had done some major foreshadowing of her death in a conversation scene with Steve earlier so was surprised she made it out alive.  

Regarding the Russia storyline, I fast-forwarded through everything single one of the scenes until the last two episodes.  Made the whole thing much easier to get through as I thought the episodes were way too long and the Russia stuff didn't interest me at all.  I stuck it out for the last two eps but thought the last episode in particular was ridiculously long and dragged on.  It could have easily been split up into multiple eps.  Longer shows do not necessarily make better shows.

I was wondering what Argyle was doing at the end.  I wish they would have revisited that.  He along with Eddie and Murray were probably my favorite characters this season.

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, janie jones said:

I thought this was a good scene other than the fact that Mr. Munson wouldn't have had any idea what Dustin was talking about. As far as he knows, Eddie died in the earthquake. And Dustin is talking about him fighting to the end and not giving up or whatever. But what would he have been not giving up on in an earthquake? Not falling in the opening?

Mr. Munson did know that Eddie was accused of murder, was being hunted down and terrible things were said about him. Dustin's words heard through that perspective would, in my mind, simply be a comfort that there was someone who believed in and supported Eddie, and that Eddie was not giving up on being exonerated. So I'd imagine that it would be a comfort to him, and that he wouldn't actually "hear" the things that aren't quite on that point. He heard the love and support and knew he wasn't the only one who loved Eddie.

I'm puzzled by the responses to El and Hopper's reunion being unemotional. I thought it was deeply emotional and very much in character for the two of them. It was the reunion that made me tear up the most. The 3 inches thing was her way of saying she was trying not to believe he was dead, and the other stuff is the way people who aren't great with expressing their emotions would say to each other. Maybe I recognize that more, because it's the way my family handles emotional moments.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Clanstarling

[Silver-hyren]

3 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

This whole season had pacing problems to me. Not sure why we had to wait to get the finale. That killed some of the momentum.  The Russia scenes (and angry jock scenes) still made time slow to a crawl.  The final confrontations between El and “Papa” and El and Vecna felt kind of drawn out unnecessarily, as if the assignment was to force the final episode to be 2-1/2 hours long,

Pretty sure that was Netflix trying to prevent people from signing up for a month trial to binge the season then cancelling before they got charged.  I think uneven is the best way to describe the season. There were lots of great ideas, but not all of them were given enough time to develop (even with extra long episodes). I didn't mind the jerk jock storyline, but It was easily forgotten among all the Vecna/Russia/Papa stuff. Given a choice, I'd take jerk jocks run amok/small town horror mob mentality over the cartoonish Russia plot.

[Clanstarling]

20 minutes ago, CrowTRobot said:

I was wondering what Argyle was doing at the end.  I wish they would have revisited that.  He along with Eddie and Murray were probably my favorite characters this season.

When he first appeared, I had no idea he would become a favorite of mine. I didn't really warm up to Eddie until his valiant end.

I don't remember Murray at the end - did he appear, or did he just not come back to Hawkins?

Edited July 4, 2022 by Clanstarling

[blueray]

We didn't see what happened to Murray or the Russian guys. But presumably they all made it out. I'd imagine Murray went home at the point. The guard got assylum (sp)  and the the other one went back to smuggling Peanut butter. 

[Kel Varnsen]

38 minutes ago, CrowTRobot said:

And I also wondered how Dustin and the others got out of the UD afterwards.  

Well Dustin who is probably the least physically fit of all the Hawkins crew who went to the upside down managed to go through the trailer gate without the blanket rope. It shouldn't have been that hard for any of the others to do the same thing. 

[Laurie4H]

So they all but say Will is gay without actually saying it and my friend said “They did? I didn’t get that impression at all”.  I knew she wouldn’t get it.  It was pretty obvious wasn’t it?  

[janie jones]

13 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not even sure he knows that, since Dustin's story was super vague. As far as he knows his nephew skipped town as he was wanted for murder. It made me sad that they couldn't recover his body from the Upsidedown, but that would mean coming up with a convincing death story.

That's a good point, but I thought Dustin was trying to imply Eddie had died in the earthquake. Especially with giving the necklace, which isn't something you'd do if someone were still alive (unless they were faking their death) without saying "he wanted you to have this" or something.

1 hour ago, CrowTRobot said:

I was wondering what Argyle was doing at the end.  I wish they would have revisited that.  He along with Eddie and Murray were probably my favorite characters this season.

Argyle probably didn't want to traipse through the woods. How far did they have to walk to get from Hopper's cabin deep into the woods to that meadow? Them all suddenly being on that hill distracted me.

[iMonrey]

I have mixed feelings about this. I enjoyed it overall, but one of the things I like best about Stranger Things is that they finish the story they start at the beginning of the season by the end of the season. There's always a little bit left over for another season, but by and large, they have an ending to that season's main story. Not so much this time. We are left on a big cliff-hanger this time around, and an additional season will now just feel like Season 4 Part 2. 

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, Blue Plastic said:

Vecna:  Mwahaha, you have lost and I have won!

El (slowly being pinned to the front door by Vecna’s vines):  Whimper.

Vecna:  Ha ha ha, how does it feel to know that you have lost and I have won?

(Max gets pulled up slowly and trapped by vines in the background.)

El:  Cries.

Vecna:  I am going to make you watch your friends die now because you have lost and I have won!

Etc.

LOL. Don't forget he threw a 'I had hoped to make you my bride so we can rule the Upside Down together!' in there for good measure. I rolled my eyes straight out of my head.

[Redrum]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I have mixed feelings about this. I enjoyed it overall, but one of the things I like best about Stranger Things is that they finish the story they start at the beginning of the season by the end of the season. There's always a little bit left over for another season, but by and large, they have an ending to that season's main story. Not so much this time. We are left on a big cliff-hanger this time around, and an additional season will now just feel like Season 4 Part 2. 

I think this is where I'm griping and annoyed. Look, I get the Netflix profit motive for splitting the season but..... for all that it was four and a half hours long, the last two episodes draaaaaaagggged. And led us to 'everyone is sorta doomed and check back here in maybe a year, maybe more, and this time it will resolve! Except that we're planning a spinoff....."

[Racj82]

I was too damn entertained to understand this drag people keep going on about.

I remember my worry being we don't have the time to wrap this up but then realizing nope we have a ton of time. Thank God.

Even with the Russia plot. While being my least favorite out the fractured plotlines Harbour brought the goods and kept me. Also, Murray being wildly competent and the determination of Joyce. Other than a bit too much we need to get out/we need to go back in the final battle for them was very good to me.

I also do like the notion of them all fighting the same fight no matter where they were.

[steelyis]

18 hours ago, Racj82 said:

No disrespect but I hate this. I'm speaking in general. More and more, writers have to write with backlash in mind instead of just telling the stories they want to tell. If they killed off Max or Steve, both of which made sense storyline wise, there would have been a fan revolt. If they killed off Robin they are accused of burying their gays instead of just killing off a character, If Lucas died, it's killing off the lone black character in major core group. I just want people to tell stories. I may not agree with all their decisions but I wouldn't quit a show, i wouldn't be mad or start petitions or any of that. It's nuts that more of our beloved group haven't died. I don't want any of them to die. But, I wouldn't let that dictate how I write my story. No ones feelings are wrong but I feel more and more a growing feeling of constant copping out with deaths in major media these days. While I should jf had genuine fear for Max I just kept knowing in my head they weren't going to actually kill a female lead on this show. The backlash would be too major. I hate that I know this.

A shame but let him die. He died. We are losing important stakes in movies and tv more and more. They are incredibly dangerous situations and would be a shame to lose anyone in the cast. But, people need to go. This isn't a PG family flick.

 No, no, no!

I am all in at this point!

Even if the show pissed me off beyond reason by killing off, say, Steve, I'd still watch. Oh, I'd be watching with blood streaming from my eyes and constantly gnashing my teeth in a frothy rage, but I will be watching!

Edited July 4, 2022 by steelyis

[Sakura12]

We don't know what happened with Max. It looks like El brought back her body not her. Her mind was empty. Vecna's body was also destroyed so he'll need a new one and one happens to be empty. Max is not there, so she is dead. Now whether they can get her back remains to be seen. 

Another trope genre shows love is the team having to fight one their own. I think Sadie Sink can pull of playing Vecna.  

[healthnut]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:38 PM, MissL said:

I don’t understand Eddie’s death on several levels. Why did he lead them away from the trailer? Did he realize they maybe would follow him through the rip and get Dustin and be loose on the world?  

I hadn’t thought of that angle 🤔that’s a good theory…

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, janie jones said:

That's a good point, but I thought Dustin was trying to imply Eddie had died in the earthquake. Especially with giving the necklace, which isn't something you'd do if someone were still alive (unless they were faking their death) without saying "he wanted you to have this" or something.

It was weird. Dustin's story had to be vague enough where the uncle wouldn't ask what happened to the body. But at the same time clear enough that he knows Eddie is dead and not evil. I am just trying to wrap my head around what kind of story leads to him giving Dustin the pick necklace and then I guess falling down an earthquake hole.

[overtherainbow]

15 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Yeah, I found their reunion underwhelming for the exact reasons you stated.  They talked about having the same haircut and keeping the door open. They talked as if Hopper had been away on a long business trip. That wasn't the emotional reunion I'd been eagerly anticipating. And El saying she "never gave up hope" or something like that. Where in this overly bloated season did El express any feelings that Hopper might be alive?? DH and MBB gave it all they had but the writing just wasn't there. 

I think they tried to tie it all up a little too quickly. The majority of the 2+ hour long episode was very much focused on the battle, the ending felt a little too quick. There was no build up to Hopper/El reuniting. 

3 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

So they all but say Will is gay without actually saying it and my friend said “They did? I didn’t get that impression at all”.  I knew she wouldn’t get it.  It was pretty obvious wasn’t it?  

He's gay in the completely stereotypical teenage boy sense, he's artsy, he's overly sensitive/emotional, has no interest in girls. But S3 Will could just as easily pass for asexual in the last season IMO. I think it's obvious Will cares for Mike even though it was subtle I still didn't see much of an indication he had a crush on him. Other than the short exchange with Jonathan.

[nomodrama]

19 minutes ago, overtherainbow said:

He's gay in the completely stereotypical teenage boy sense, he's artsy, he's overly sensitive/emotional, has no interest in girls. But S3 Will could just as easily pass for asexual in the last season IMO. I think it's obvious Will cares for Mike even though it was subtle I still didn't see much of an indication he had a crush on him. Other than the short exchange with Jonathan.

The last couple of seasons I totally thought that Will could identify as asexual. It wasn't until the break between seasons when the internet kept insisting that he is gay and in love with Mike that I questioned what I was seeing on screen. This season they seem to have really leaned more into him being gay, but unless he comes out, it's all just assumptions at this point. 

I think his being asexual would be a very interesting thing for the show to explore. My daughter has a female friend who told her she is asexual. She wore a suit to a school event and there were all these whisperings it was her way of coming out. She's close friends with a boy in the class and his mom recently told me she thinks this girl has a crush on him. It's not my business to tell so all I could do was cringe internally at all the assumptions constantly being made. Being asexual seems to be something people can't wrap their minds around and it would be good to put more spotlight on it. 

[Redrum]

27 minutes ago, nomodrama said:

The last couple of seasons I totally thought that Will could identify as asexual.

Agree. As an asexual myself I really see the signs in Will. Particularly his confusion in not understanding WHAT was different and why he was the same old Will but everyone else was acting like they lost their damn minds. Now I know a lot of people seem really invested in Will being gay so I'm not going to stand in the way of that tide coming in but I will say Will, as an asexual, could very easily love Mike as deeply as he does, without wanting Mike sexually. 

[festivus]

I, too, was seeing Will as asexual. Apparently though, it's "weird" to not see Will being in love with Mike. Sorry that I'm not here for the same ol' tired story of the gay guy being in love with his straight best friend. Who will never love him back that way. Also, Will can be gay and asexual.

[Redrum]

4 minutes ago, festivus said:

Also, Will can be gay and asexual.

Yup. Now I dunno if the show has time to properly develop such things but we did have a lengthy Russia story line that literally amounted to "Hopper is alive, and we have to get rid of Joyce for other stuff to work" so maybe there's some developement space available.

7 minutes ago, festivus said:

Sorry that I'm not here for the same ol' tired story of the gay guy being in love with his straight best friend. Who will never love him back that way.

Yeah, we all know this won't be ending with Mike looking into Will's eyes, and saying "Oh my god, Will. It was you, it was always you....I just couldn't accept it" and then the two of them kissing with tongues. 

[Blue Plastic]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Another trope genre shows love is the team having to fight one their own. I think Sadie Sink can pull of playing Vecna.  

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It was weird. Dustin's story had to be vague enough where the uncle wouldn't ask what happened to the body. But at the same time clear enough that he knows Eddie is dead and not evil. I am just trying to wrap my head around what kind of story leads to him giving Dustin the pick necklace and then I guess falling down an earthquake hole.

LOL!  He fought the earthquake, and the earthquake won!  I guess maybe some debris could have fallen on him, and he gave Dustin the necklace during his last moments.  (Not meant to minimize Eddie's sacrifice, and I did like him okay, but was not as attached to him as I am to the OG characters.)

28 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Agree. As an asexual myself I really see the signs in Will. Particularly his confusion in not understanding WHAT was different and why he was the same old Will but everyone else was acting like they lost their damn minds. Now I know a lot of people seem really invested in Will being gay so I'm not going to stand in the way of that tide coming in but I will say Will, as an asexual, could very easily love Mike as deeply as he does, without wanting Mike sexually. 

I totally see that in Will and can relate to that myself at his age.  My friends turned nuts for boyfriends/girlfriends at that age and didn't want to just hang out anymore.  So I don't see Will's desire to just hang out with his friends as an indication that he's gay and in love with Mike or even especially immature and doesn't want to grow up.  I'm not arguing that he isn't gay, but the way the writers have him so obviously agonizing over something without actually SAYING it (he could totally talk to Jonathan about it if no one else) makes me think there might be a bit more to it than that.  (Not to imply that being gay in an unaccepting time and place and possibly in unrequited love wouldn't also be agonizing for him.)

It's only the last few months, actually, that I realized there are other aroace people out there.  I've felt like a complete weirdo ever since high school.

With regard to the Max thing - I do think it's sort of a copout that she - or at least her body - is still alive.  The other teens who were levitated and had their arms and legs broken QUICKLY and DECISIVELY died immediately afterward.  So it's like they WENT THERE and then were like, nope!  Retreat, retreat!  Hopefully they have something cool planned.  I like your idea, Sakura12.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Blue Plastic
Add

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, Blue Plastic said:

It's only the last few months, actually, that I realized there are other aroace people out there.  I've felt like a complete weirdo ever since high school.

Welcome to the party! We have a secret ace handshake and also a sticker to put on your car and house windows when we rise up and lash out against the sexxors. ONE OF US ONE OF US!!! :D

3 minutes ago, Blue Plastic said:

With regard to the Max thing - I do think it's sort of a copout that she - or at least her body - is still alive.  The other teens who were levitated and had their arms and legs broken QUICKLY and DECISIVELY died immediately afterward.  So it's like they WENT THERE and then were like, nope!  Retreat, retreat! 

Yeah, like, I didn't need to see another jaw broken and more eyeballs literally exploding but Max really didn't get the full Vecna. I like Max, I don't want Max to die but....this is as suspicious as Victor Creel's son "falling into a coma and dying" was. 

[peachmangosteen]

I've always wanted Will to be asexual as well because I think it tracks and it would be awesome to see more representation. But it has become abundantly clear that Will is in love with Mike. Sure, he could still be asexual but I just don't think that's the intention of the writers.

[Redrum]

34 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

But it has become abundantly clear that Will is in love with Mike. Sure, he could still be asexual but I just don't think that's the intention of the writers anymore. 

Which is unfortunate because then it ends up "Gay boy pines for straight friend who will never ever reciprocate". 

[DrSpaceman73]

Gay, straight, asexual, whatever, and i dont really care one way or another, wills storyline this season was the weakest of all. He did nothing but tell Mike how important he is to El.  He contributed nothing else to the story.  I'd be so pissed about this season if I were Noah schnapp.  The stoner pizza guy was more critical to the story than him. 

Also Mike is the heart of the group?  I've never seen it that way. 

[Redrum]

3 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Also Mike is the heart of the group?  I've never seen it that way. 

I personally would have assigned Will that role. 

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, healthnut said:

I hadn’t thought of that angle 🤔that’s a good theory…

I mean, I'm shocked that so many people keep saying Eddie sacrificed himself for nothing. Those creatures could have easily flew through the open gate. Also, he had no idea how the rest of the gang was doing and keeping the monsters away was their part of the plan. He was continuing to do that .

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, Redrum said:

Which is unfortunate because then it ends up "Gay boy pines for straight friend who will never ever reciprocate". 

Which is more realistic to timeframe since there wouldn't be many gay males or out gay males for him.

Will could literally just be in love with Mike but not have any romantic inkling towards anyone beyond that. We shall see.

25 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Also Mike is the heart of the group?  I've never seen it that way. 

Its coming from Will. He sees Mike differently than everyone else. That doesn't mean the show is actually saying he is.

Will isn't really anything within the group. He's been mostly the victim. For those who say Dustin is the heart, I would say he's the brains, not the heart.

[janie jones]

8 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

LOL. Don't forget he threw a 'I had hoped to make you my bride so we can rule the Upside Down together!' in there for good measure. I rolled my eyes straight out of my head.

I don't know if anyone has seen Stoker, but One was giving me serious Uncle Charlie vibes a few episodes back.

[Thalia]

I am rewatching Dear Billy, and was reminded of the letters.  I wonder if they will be mentioned in season 5.  I can see Lucas reading his letter and maybe talking about it with the comatose Max.  With the possible exception of Eleven's letter, I'm guessing the others don't get mentioned again. 

[Enero]

On 7/1/2022 at 1:19 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I have a lot of thoughts about this finale but first off, I have to say that the main kids (particularly Sadie, Gaten and Caleb) absolutely crushed it this season.

Jason was such a tragic antagonist. Yes, he really ruined things for the gang that indirectly led to Max dying, but from his POV, he didn't have all the information and was basically being told to stop believing with what he was seeing and what was known at the time, and to listen to people who he didn't know well. He lost Chrissy, so it's understandable why he reacted like he did. And it got him killed, rather brutally, for no good reason. I didn't like Jason and knew he'd muck things up, but he didn't deserve his death.

Neither did Eddie, who I WAS hoping would survive. He fit in with the group so well and it's not like I wanted to trade one mentor for another for Dustin, but I expected Eddie to fulfil that role if Steve perished. And I LOVED Eddie, I really hoped they wouldn't pull a Bob.

I agree that Caleb and Sadie were the standouts this season. Many others knocked it out the park too. 

Regarding Jason, I understood his pain but he was completely out of control. What he was doing was insane. I was horrified and angry when one of his jock brothers ran down a child, Erica, and forced her to the ground  attacking her. Again it was insane. I understand he was hurt and wanted justice but what he was doing went way beyond justice and thus was not justifiable. He died and I didn’t even care. Maybe if he wasn’t acting like such a psychopath he wouldn’t have even been at the the Ballard house and thus would’ve survived the earthquake. But he was there because of his crazed behavior and died as a result.

Regarding Eddie, I  loved the character. Unfortunately I knew he was a redcoat from the moment he showed up. And really his character had been written into a corner with everyone believing he was a serial killer. There’s no way he could have survived and not paid the consequences for the murders. Such a shame because he was a great character. 

Quote

Whew, that was a lot!

This! I mean goodness that was an emotional two-hours, almost draining but it went by fast. 

On 7/1/2022 at 2:32 PM, thuganomics85 said:

The reveal that he was the only who created the Mind-Flayer was great too.  They really did a good job at establishing him as a threat and he is more than worthy as the (or one of) endgame baddie.

I knew Vecna created the Mind Flayer. I’ve had debates about this with others who believed he did not. The materials were there but he just shaped it and created it into what he wanted it to be. Also looks like the demodogs were already in the upside down world but  appeared to be harmless until Vecna got control of them.

On 7/1/2022 at 5:23 PM, Aquarius97 said:

I really thought at one point, a lot of the gang was going to die, but at the end it kinda feels unsatisfying. Only Eddie dying, once again the secondary star character dying, why are we even surprised anymore, but i call bs in 11 sorta resurrecting Max. I think that should have been it, the "dying" scene was so intense.

Me too! After watching E8 I thought we were going to lose at least two main characters. I was surprised when that didn’t happen. I was also surprised to see El apparently has powers to bring back the dead. Was this revealed in a previous season and I just forgot? Because when she start saying “no” then reached out her hand to heal Max I was like huh? I need an explanation for this. 😂 
 

Quote

Lucas and Max are 100x better than any other couple, it feels like the only one that isn't forced.

Completely agree. I really enjoyed how much they bonded this season. There’s a real connection between them  which makes them being a couple believable. I also thought the bond between Steve and Nancy tremendously improved this season. And perhaps they can eventually reunite and give it another go but I can’t see them or she and Jonathan lasting long term. But then why should they need to be planning a future ie marriage and kids now. They’re all still very young. And realistically will find life mates in other people whom they’ve yet to meet, that’s if they decide to have a life mate.

On 7/1/2022 at 10:58 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Mike’s love speech to El. I didn’t buy it. He might be the weakest of the child actors…

OMG this. I was rolling my eyes during his love speech. Mainly because I don’t believe that he and El have this great love and 2) because his speech was not believable due to the acting. It just wasn’t good. And the speech was way too long .

I’ll watch the final season because I enjoy the story, but holy heart attacks,

just because they have a budget for 9 two hour episodes or whatever doesn’t mean the story is worth that much time.

 

I agree with this. Though I thought the finale was great, they didn’t need 2+ hours to tell the story. There was a lot of time wasted on characters playing grab ass ie El and Mike bonding over Pizza, or folks pontificating for it seemed like 20 minutes, looking at you Vecna. I hate to see a villain going on and on about what they’re going to do to their victim or how they became the monster they are. It’s annoying. 😂 

I’d forgotten Will is connected to Vecna until the last 5 minutes of this episode. He’s connected to him in a way like no other being that he still feels him, knows how he thinks etc, which is interesting. I hope that the gang finds a way to tap into that connection next season and perhaps use it to take him down for good. 

I know this isn’t the wishlist thread but another thing I’d like to see is El being able to give Vecna a run for his money without the big emotional power push. Will might not always be around to give her a love speech that’ll heighten her emotions and subsequently boost her power. She needs to learn how to fight Vecna with more than just one suoer powered hit. But I don’t  know if she’ll ever be able to hone her skills to such strength. Vecna has had years to hone his powers, which is why he is so powerful. While El has only been “training” for 2-3 years. 

Anyway, great season. Looking forward to the final season when it’s released. 

[Haleth]

Wowie!  Wow, wow, wow!  That was fantastic!  I mean, so much simultaneous action!  I was breathless watching everyone in such tense scenes!  Omigosh, poor Eddie (RIP) and poor Max!

I am so impressed with the acting of many of these kids. They made me love them and weep like a baby during emotional scenes. Well done, kids!

Great job all around.  This was like watching a movie, very high quality production values. No skimping, blow that budget!

(I watched this in 2 parts so it didn’t seem overly long or tedious.  I don’t know why it wasn’t split into 2 episodes.  Perhaps that was a mistake.)

As a resident of IN I always wondered where Hawkins is (thought it was north), so when they mentioned Roane County I immediately googled that. Now I know where they are!

Edited July 5, 2022 by Haleth