S04.E03: Chapter Three: The Monster and the Superhero

[ch1]

2 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

Not sure why Eleven suddenly thinks Mike doesn't love her. Aside from just signings his letters "from," is there any indication that his feelings have waned? Or is this a natural consequence of her insecurities getting the best of her, plus distance?

Did I miss some subtle scene that indicates why she might feel that way?

I think it’s a continuation of their last scene of S3.  El asked him if he remembered saying it (in the cabin where he yelled “I love her and can’t lose her again”).  He played it off and acted like he didn’t remember (you decide if he genuinely didn’t remember or if he’s BSing her).  She then said she loved him too and kissed him.  After she walked away he had had a confused look on his face.

One would think if he heard what he wanted to hear he would at least have a small smile but it was just confusion.

[Ambrosefolly]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:44 AM, Sarah 103 said:

Maybe. If Will was interested in girls, I think he would have shown some sign of it. In the first episode of the season, he didn't seem pleased a girl was flirting with him. I thought it just meant he wasn't interested in her specifically, but it's possible he's not interested in girls at all. 

Will has been quite gay coded...but I thought that girl was super forward. They are freshman in high school, not adults at a dinner party. It didn't look like they were friendly before. I felt bad for El, but kind of felt bad for Mike for an instant when El dismissed the bullying he endured in school. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Ambrosefolly

[Sarah 103]

18 hours ago, neptunewaves said:

This show penchant for telling instead of showing is going to give me a bloody ulcer. You don't need to have half the cast making snide comments to Steve and Nancy to imply they might still harbor some feelings for each other (just as you don't need Shipper On Deck Murray to bully her and Jonathan into embracing theirs, but I disgress).

I'm okay with this because it seems real to me. This has happened with my group of friends multiple times. Shipper On Deck is a real life thing for me, not just a TVLand thing. I also think it's funny to contrast the characters having discussions involving life or death consequences and discussions on how to save the world with discussions involving unwanted relationship advice. 

[Birnam Wood]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:19 AM, Blue Plastic said:

Jonathan looks like a hard 50 if he's a day.

Seriously. Consider sunscreen, dude. You look like Hans Moleman.

[Captain Carrot]

On 5/31/2022 at 12:05 PM, eleanorofaquitaine said:

You do bring up a good point re the Starcourt Mall's destruction but realistically, there were probably other stores like Walmart, etc. in the area that were still hurting main street stores. 

Or the business was just too far gone to survive even after its competition was gone. Hawkins might be like one of those towns that had a Walmart cause all of the local businesses close only to leave the area because they weren't making enough money.

On 5/31/2022 at 4:11 PM, ch1 said:

I don’t think Owens is really trying to help El.  He’s trying to help her become a weapon again because without her powers they are screwed.

I have to agree. Owens is a good guy, but we saw in S2 that he's also pragmatic and a believer in the ends justifying the means.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:31 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I’m starting to wonder if social media is right and Will does have deeper feelings for Mike. 

On 5/29/2022 at 12:44 AM, Sarah 103 said:

Maybe. If Will was interested in girls, I think he would have shown some sign of it. In the first episode of the season, he didn't seem pleased a girl was flirting with him. I thought it just meant he wasn't interested in her specifically, but it's possible he's not interested in girls at all. 

{Disclaimer:  Have only watched the season (& series) to this episode [so far!], so I have plenty of time to be proven very wrong....}

I'm going mostly the other way with this, about the hints that Will is gay (for Mike, at the least). 

My current working theory is that the complete and total obviousness of the 'clues' that paint Will as a batter for the same team are way too blatant and thus are red herrings, and are possibly actually clues about something else. 

I think its possible that Will has fallen for Jane/Eleven but - in his mind - can't do anything about it because not only does the rest of his family consider her his sister now but she and his (former?) best friend are together (somewhat, from a long distance).  If one were to see it a certain way, there's a clue right in the first episode, during that monologue of Jane/11 'reading' the letter she's written to Mike.  She says something along the lines of "Will is acting weird, I think he likes a girl".

Its probably a stupid theory and me reading into things that aren't there, but I just feel like the heavy-handedness of the "Will is gay!" hints are too obvious for it to be either just that or that at all.  Seems way too easy, with hints that a blind & deaf person could read without any trouble.

As for all the awkwardness that Will is displaying around Mike, I believe is more about the remnants of the argument they had during the middle of S3 and as Will stated, Mike hadn't called or wrote but a couple times then turned down a friendly hug attempt when arrived in Cali as well as pretty much ignored Will totally in favor of Jane/11 the whole time he's been there.

Its only for about 20 hours, but I'm standing on this hill until I watch the rest of S4, V1.

Edited June 6, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[methodwriter85]

On 6/3/2022 at 10:25 PM, Birnam Wood said:

Seriously. Consider sunscreen, dude. You look like Hans Moleman.

*cough* Nose candy *cough*

Edited June 6, 2022 by methodwriter85

[Redrum]

8 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

As for all the awkwardness that Will is displaying around Mike, I believe is more about the remnants of the argument they had during the middle of S3 and as Will stated, Mike hadn't called or wrote but a couple times then turned down a friendly hug attempt when arrived in Cali as well as pretty much ignored Will totally in favor of Jane/11 the whole time he's been there.

I am gonna say, maybe gay or not, Will has every right to be irritated with Mike and Mike's El obsession. Mike was invited to California to visit El and Will... not just El, and Will as a friend, whether he secretly loves Mike or is just friends, has every right to be annoyed that Mike was pretty much ignoring him for El. Mike's obsession with El is not cute or healthy and he's pretty damn rude about it. 

I will say it and I know I go against the mantra that kids who are bullied are all innocent victims but.... the character of Mike is exactly the sort of kid who brings on the bullying by being abrasive as hell, and rude with people they don't like. 

[Taryn74]

10 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I think its possible that Will has fallen for Jane/Eleven but - in his mind - can't do anything about it because not only does the rest of his family consider her his sister now but she and his (former?) best friend are together (somewhat, from a long distance).  If one were to see it a certain way, there's a clue right in the first episode, during that monologue of Jane/11 'reading' the letter she's written to Mike.  She says something along the lines of "Will is acting weird, I think he likes a girl".

I think that's a real possibility, too. But, if I'm being blunt, I fear for the showrunners' career if they DON'T have Will be gay at this point. They've hinted at it too much - even if they did intend for it to be a red herring - and the blowback if they don't follow through will be huge. Today's cancel culture is VICIOUS.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Taryn74
Edited because it created a duplicate post.

[Dev F]

20 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I think that's a real possibility, too. But, if I'm being blunt, I fear for the showrunners' career if they DON'T have Will be gay at this point. They've hinted at it too much - even if they did intend for it to be a red herring - and the blowback if they don't follow through will be huge. Today's cancel culture is VICIOUS.

I mean, if they spent four seasons layering in gay subtext just so they could be like, "Psych! He's actually in love with El!" they'd deserve every bit of blowback they got.

I'm not saying that as a shipper, by any means. I think the chance the Mike reciprocates Will's feelings is quite remote, since I've always read Mike's arc as being about him struggling with the fear of being ordinary rather than anything related to his sexuality. But I am very much in favor of subtext being meaningful, instead of us having to assume that oblique character development means nothing until and unless someone explicitly says, "Yes, Will is gay."

[Redrum]

I mean honestly I could care less if Will is gay or straight. It has literally no bearing on any of the stories running. Would it be good to have a little more representation, sure.... but would it make any difference overall? To the whole Vecna Upside-down battle of good and evil?

[Dev F]

12 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I mean honestly I could care less if Will is gay or straight. It has literally no bearing on any of the stories running. Would it be good to have a little more representation, sure.... but would it make any difference overall? To the whole Vecna Upside-down battle of good and evil?

I mean, it made a difference last season. By my reading, Will's entire S3 storyline was about how he was in denial about both his sexuality and the Mind Flayer's return, burying them under the comforting fiction that he's just a kid who wants to play D&D, and when the confrontation with Mike forced him to come to terms with the former, it also allowed him to finally accept that the Mind Flayer was back.

In fact, season 3 is what tipped me from "These are just passing hints that might not amount to anything" to "This is a legitimate subtextual storyline." I honestly don't see a way that's Will's S3 story makes sense, even on the most basic literal level, without the subtext of his repressed crush on Mike. Without it, the storyline is "Will is repressing his knowledge of the Mind Flayer's return, and then he has an unrelated fight with Mike, after which he is randomly able to accept that the Mind Flayer is back." That's what I mean when I say my dog in this fight is that I want subtext to mean something: I would rather not knock down the subtextual underpinnings that turn a series of choppy plot points into an elegant character arc.

And, in more general terms, of course the story of the season will be meaningfully affected by who the characters are and what they're going through. If their personal struggles didn't factor in to the story being told, what would be the point?

[Redrum]

13 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I mean, it made a difference last season. By my reading, Will's entire S3 storyline was about how he was in denial about both his sexuality and the Mind Flayer's return, burying them under the comforting fiction that he's just a kid who wants to play D&D, and when the confrontation with Mike forced him to come to terms with the former, it also allowed him to finally accept that the Mind Flayer was back.

In your interpretation, yes. 

My interpretation of Will in season three was a kid who saw everyone in his circle growing up and moving away from him while he was still suffering from some trauma and really wanted things to stabilize and be exactly as they were before the trauma happened. No girls, best friends who wanted to be friends with him and play D&D, and the whole thing with Mike was Will realizing things were never going to be the same and that he needed to move on and accept that things were different. 

Your view is not wrong for you - but my view is also not wrong for me. 

19 minutes ago, Dev F said:

And, in more general terms, of course the story of the season will be meaningfully affected by who the characters are and what they're going through. If their personal struggles didn't factor in to the story being told, what would be the point?

What affect does Dustin's heterosexuality have on his struggles this season? What about Robin being gay - is that actually affecting the story line? To me, neither has any impact. It just is. 

Now I will qualify myself as happily asexual and a lot of times I roll my eyes at the whole business but whose dating who really isn't significant. Robin is pining for her girl in band but this is clearly a side plot (I expect that resolve with those two a happy, if secret, couple). Steve may be pining for Nancy - this probably resolves with them getting together and or him saving her for Jonathan. Jonathan is sorta pining for Nancy but so far its been pretty meaningless. Will might be pining for Mike -I do agree he's being coded as gay by the writers, I just don't like the stereotype - but there's only one way I think goes anywhere significant. Mike is as always obsessed with El - and this does have some plot signifcance since its motivating Mike to go chasing after her.

Significant but ignored because its hetero - Max was saved from Vecna in part due to her love for Lucas her ex. To me this was kind of big and implied this couple was more... serious? Than what we might have initially thought. And its mostly ignored, even though I have a feeling Steve will somehow rescue Nancy due to the power of his love for her versus Vecna's hate and rage. 

*Where it might be significant that Will is gay and pining for Mike is that I think love is what defeats Vecna. I am sure at some point El will be in a confrontation with Vecna, with Mike, and Will, and the rest watching and the power of Mike's love will save El... and possibly Will will sacrifice himself  to save Mike with the power of HIS love for Mike. But thats the only way I see Will being gay for Mike having an impact on the plot and as an ace, I do think platonic love has power so Will doesn't need to be gay for this to work. 

[Cranberry]

51 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I am sure at some point El will be in a confrontation with Vecna, with Mike, and Will, and the rest watching and the power of Mike's love will save El... and possibly Will will sacrifice himself  to save Mike with the power of HIS love for Mike.

That would be true Bury Your Gays and would be a massive mistake. I don't think that every instance of a gay character dying is BYG, but when they die in service of a straight love story... one hundred per cent the bad trope.

(Maya Hawke said in one of this season's interviews that she wanted Robin to have a love story with Nancy, who would ultimately choose Steve over her, and then Robin would sacrifice herself saving them from the monster and preserving their love. That would be equally problematic!)

[Redrum]

10 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

That would be true Bury Your Gays and would be a massive mistake. I don't think that every instance of a gay character dying is BYG, but when they die in service of a straight love story... one hundred per cent the bad trope.

Yet I totally see it gearing that way. But I certainly can be wrong. 

For the record, it is a show about kids (theoretically anyway) so this scenario can play out without Will dying.

I don't see the Robin/Nancy/Steve thing playing out as yet. Robin really doesn't seem into Nancy at all. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Redrum

[moonb]

Ymmv, but I think Will's being gay matters as far as the show is a coming of age story about growing up, and a lot of our signs of maturity are pretty heterosexual and not exactly available to someone gay in the 1980s (dating in public in lots of places, marrying and having families, and so on). I don't think it matters to the plot at all, but outcasts are a big theme of the show between the kids in the lab, the Party,  Max's family situation....it makes sense that sexual identity would be part of that.  El feels like she doesn't belong anywhere, and Will might have similar feelings for very different reasons.

[Sarah 103]

4 hours ago, Redrum said:

What about Robin being gay - is that actually affecting the story line?

It is not impacting the overall monster storyline but it is impacting the romantic storyline, and romantic storylines (at least for the teen heroes/older teen heroes) has been part of the series since season 1, episode 1, and for the younger heroes starting in season 2.

Also, the romantic storyline tends to intersect with the monster storyline at some point. In the first season, Steve shows up at the Bryer house due to romantic/relationship drama and gets sucked into the monster plotline. In season 2, Dustin realizes Max has feelings for Lucas while they were hiding from the monster.  

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I guess the reason I am most intrigued by my theory of Will pining for Jane/11 instead of being gay is because I like the viewing experience a lot more when the shows throw curveballs after constant hints about one thing, instead turning out to be something else;  no matter the plot or storyline.  Them veering off the path of their hints is not something I'm willing to bet on, but I prefer non-linear paths in things I watch/read.   jmpov & ymmv

Also, going off just memory, but I am remembering Will always referring to her as either 'El' or Jane so far this season - through ep.3 - but much more often than not, Mike calls her 'Eleven'.  I feel like there's a big clue about things in the difference there, but I can't figure out exactly what.  (like whether Mike actually is [still?] in love with her, or not, for instance)

Edited June 6, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Dev F]

10 hours ago, Redrum said:

My interpretation of Will in season three was a kid who saw everyone in his circle growing up and moving away from him while he was still suffering from some trauma and really wanted things to stabilize and be exactly as they were before the trauma happened. No girls, best friends who wanted to be friends with him and play D&D, and the whole thing with Mike was Will realizing things were never going to be the same and that he needed to move on and accept that things were different.

I don't think that's inaccurate, I just think the text supports a more specific reading than that. Why is Will's initial state of delusion characterized by him insisting "I'm not gonna fall in love"? Why is he so specifically distressed by Mike having a girlfriend, but totally fine hanging out with Lucas and Max and actually smiling with excitement at the idea of meeting Dustin's girlfriend? Why do the moments when he represses the knowledge of the Mind Flayer's return happen to correspond to the moments when he's sitting next to Mike at the movies on a quasi–double date, or watching glumly as Mike skips down the hill with his girlfriend? And that's not even taking into account the hints seeded in earlier seasons, from the homophobic bullying in season 1 to the talk of Will's "rainbow ship" of which Joyce was "so proud" in season 2, and so on.

Which is not to say that I'm right and you're wrong. We all take from the show what we choose to take from it. But this is my answer to your question What bearing does Will's sexuality have on the story being told? To me, assuming that Will is struggling with his sexuality renders the story more coherent and specific than any reading I've seen that assumes he isn't, and lends meaning to things that, under any other framework I'm familiar with, end up meaning nothing.

Quote

What affect does Dustin's heterosexuality have on his struggles this season? What about Robin being gay - is that actually affecting the story line? To me, neither has any impact. It just is. 

It's interesting you'd pick those two examples, because I'd argue that in season 3, Dustin's relationship with his girlfriend and Robin's coming-out scene are both quite central to putting across the story and themes of the season.

Basically, I see S3 as being largely about the fact that these previously tight groups of friends and loved ones are going their separate ways -- and that this is actually a strength rather than a weakness. In their fight against the Mind Flayer, a symbol of conformity so literal that it joins its victims together into a hive mind before mashing them together into a giant blobby monster in an episode titled "E Pluribus Unum," our heroes draw strength from their disunity, fracturing into smaller groups that each play a unique role in thwarting the Mind Flayer's plans.

Dustin's role is one of the clearest articulations of that idea. He spends the whole season insisting that he got this girlfriend when he was away at camp, and all his friends think he's totally making it up. But in the end, this personal connection that no one believed in and no one else could possibly duplicate is essential to cracking the Russian passcode and saving the world. And it's revealed in a strange and beautiful duet, embodying the idea that drifting apart from your friends isn't just sadly necessary but can even be joyous and ennobling.

Robin's coming-out scene has more of a thematic than a literal connection, but it embodies another facet of the idea that rifts between friends don't have to be a negative thing: Steve realizes he and Robin will never be together romantically, but it doesn't mean he has to stop caring about her.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dev F

[CailynA]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:51 PM, Dev F said:

I don't think that's inaccurate, I just think the text supports a more specific reading than that. Why is Will's initial state of delusion characterized by him insisting "I'm not gonna fall in love"? Why is he so specifically distressed by Mike having a girlfriend, but totally fine hanging out with Lucas and Max and actually smiling with excitement at the idea of meeting Dustin's girlfriend? Why do the moments when he represses the knowledge of the Mind Flayer's return happen to correspond to the moments when he's sitting next to Mike at the movies on a quasi–double date, or watching glumly as Mike skips down the hill with his girlfriend? And that's not even taking into account the hints seeded in earlier seasons, from the homophobic bullying in season 1 to the talk of Will's "rainbow ship" of which Joyce was "so proud" in season 2, and so on.

Which is not to say that I'm right and you're wrong. We all take from the show what we choose to take from it. But this is my answer to your question What bearing does Will's sexuality have on the story being told? To me, assuming that Will is struggling with his sexuality renders the story more coherent and specific than any reading I've seen that assumes he isn't, and lends meaning to things that, under any other framework I'm familiar with, end up meaning nothing.

It's interesting you'd pick those two examples, because I'd argue that in season 3, Dustin's relationship with his girlfriend and Robin's coming-out scene are both quite central to putting across the story and themes of the season.

Basically, I see S3 as being largely about the fact that these previously tight groups of friends and loved ones are going their separate ways -- and that this is actually a strength rather than a weakness. In their fight against the Mind Flayer, a symbol of conformity so literal that it joins its victims together into a hive mind before mashing them together into a giant blobby monster in an episode titled "E Pluribus Unum," our heroes draw strength from their disunity, fracturing into smaller groups that each play a unique role in thwarting the Mind Flayer's plans.

Dustin's role is one of the clearest articulations of that idea. He spends the whole season insisting that he got this girlfriend when he was away at camp, and all his friends think he's totally making it up. But in the end, this personal connection that no one believed in and no one else could possibly duplicate is essential to cracking the Russian passcode and saving the world. And it's revealed in a strange and beautiful duet, embodying the idea that drifting apart from your friends isn't just sadly necessary but can even be joyous and ennobling.

Robin's coming-out scene has more of a thematic than a literal connection, but it embodies another facet of the idea that rifts between friends don't have to be a negative thing: Steve realizes he and Robin will never be together romantically, but it doesn't mean he has to stop caring about her.

Whole I totally see the "Will is gay" interpretation I think there are answers to some things. Sure he's excited to meet Dustin's girlfriend who lives in another state and won't be the total focus of Dustin's time like El is Mike's. Lucas and Max are so on again off again and Lucas seems to be much less obsessed so again he gets his friend at least some of the time. Will is also not the only one to complain about the amount of time Mike and El spend together. Both Lucas and Max roll their eyes and groan at it too. And Mike is Will's first and longest friend.

That being said, yeah I think Will is gay and crushing on Mike, though I also think he'd settle for getting a fraction of attention from his supposed best friend instead of being nearly completely ignored for El.

[Miss chi chi]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:46 AM, Redrum said:

On 5/28/2022 at 8:46 AM, Redrum said:

I agree up in a small town in the 1980s.... the lines between the jocks and the freaks so to speak were not this firmly drawn. I will say something called The Hellfire Club wouldn't have been in the high school year book as a sanctioned school club.

I did like the references to the Satanic Panic.

I call bullshit at Benny's being overtaken by the high school basketball team complete with running electricity. 

All of this! I have a vivid memory of my mother holding my cassette tapes of KISS and ripping out the tape and yelling at me that they were Knights in Satan’s Service and I was going to become a Satan worshipper if I listened to them!

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/28/2022 at 2:00 AM, tennisgurl said:

I also hope that Steve isn't still hung up on Nancy, even a little bit, I want him to find someone who will really appreciate him, and Nancy is still clearly in love with Jonathan, even if they're in a rough patch.

Completely agree. Unfortunately, I fear we may be holding onto a false hope. It's clear the writers seem to believe we all still care about this should be long-dead Steve/Nancy/Jonathan triangle. Then again, these are the people who seem to think I should care about Nancy and Jonathan's relationship at all, and that ain't happening either. 

I'm also really eyerolling this "Nancy Wheeler is every guy's dream girl" narrative they're suddenly pushing. I had to do a double take when Fred made that comment in the first episode about her being the most desirable girl in all of Hawkins or whatever the lame line was. Yeah I get that she gained some popularity dating Steve, when let's face it, she was anything BUT Ms. Popularity in Season 1 and sure she grew in confidence with all the crazy shit they've all faced.

But I'm not seeing the great appeal and it added to my irritation at what I felt was her almost looking down a bit at Robyn. Okay, I won't lie, Robyn is a little awkward asf at times. But there was just this air of superiority from Nancy that I was not feeling at all. Especially not when her supposed great love is as others noted, the 50-year old looking stoner. Jonathan brings so little to this show for me.

Although I do agree with others that the dinner scene with him and Argyle clearly high was funny, especially because one, Murray immediately could tell they were high and two, Murray kept loudly going, "no really, who is this person," in response to Argyle. I have to say I also agree with others that the basketball players nonsense and Hopper in Russia plotlines are dragging the episodes down a bit. I dread whenever the focus goes to those storylines and wish they'd get back to the real action. 

[truthaboutluv]

On 6/2/2022 at 1:45 AM, neptunewaves said:

When did Mike become this emotionally constipated? It would be hilarious if it wasn't doing a number on both El and Will.

I think Mike is just going through his own typical teenage angst/awkwardness. He's at that age for a teenage boy where expressing himself, particularly regarding emotions, isn't the most comfortable. And so the things that he thought nothing of at 10 or 12, like hugging his male best friend, is suddenly all weird and uncomfortable. So too is saying things like "I Love You," even if he clearly does.

Unfortunately, as others noted, El herself isn't exactly the most socially equipped person and so in her eyes, Mike not ending his letters saying, "Love, Mike," clearly means he doesn't feel it. She's not mature enough (not only because of her being a lab rat lacking social skills but well also, she's still a young teenage girl. She's not supposed to be super mature) to read between the lines and know that even if he's not ending his letters that way, his writing all the time, calling all the time is the proof of his feelings. 

[Dev F]

34 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

I'm also really eyerolling this "Nancy Wheeler is every guy's dream girl" narrative they're suddenly pushing. I had to do a double take when Fred made that comment in the first episode about her being the most desirable girl in all of Hawkins or whatever the lame line was. Yeah I get that she gained some popularity dating Steve, when let's face it, she was anything BUT Ms. Popularity in Season 1 and sure she grew in confidence with all the crazy shit they've all faced.

I didn't take that as the Word of God about Nancy's sex appeal. I took it to be the particular opinion of Freddy, a huge journalism nerd for whom Nancy could very well be the ne plus ultra of female desirability.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Then again, these are the people who seem to think I should care about Nancy and Jonathan's relationship at all, and that ain't happening either.

😅

[Heathrowe]

I think Will's bowl cut is supposed to tip to him being in a state of arrested development and not ready to grow up but...coupled with his post-puberty deep voice, it is just awful. I would love to see him with some cool layers/feathered hair. He looks Amish. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, lol.)  And that said - my husband and I started watching the show because Will looks so much like my husband did in elementary school - bowl cut and all. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I am one of those who think that the they have dropped a lot of contextual clues that Will is gay and also that subtext is important - it's a show about outcasts and misfits fighting both human and demonic monsters. Of course the idea that a few of those outcasts are gay matters, especially for a time period where homophobia was not only real, it contributed to a pandemic where people died lonely, awful deaths because of their orientation. 

But I will also say that particularly in season 2, I think a lot of the subtext of Will's plot line was about sexual abuse. His line about "feeling him everywhere" and the initial misdirection around whether or not Bob was a good or bad guy seemed like they were inviting us to draw parallels to victims of childhood sexual abuse. It's a complicated story to tell, especially with a character they are suggesting is gay - I've worked with victims of clergy sexual abuse and a lot of them were targeted because abusive priests sensed they were gay but the abuse itself didn't "cause" them to be gay. 

But I do think with season 3 and a little of 4, we are seeing how victims of abuse, represented by Will, do experience arrested development and challenges in processing romantic feelings. And with that subtext, I hope that they do the story justice. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[janie jones]

8 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

I think Will's bowl cut is supposed to tip to him being in a state of arrested development and not ready to grow up but...coupled with his post-puberty deep voice, it is just awful. I would love to see him with some cool layers/feathered hair. He looks Amish. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, lol.)  And that said - my husband and I started watching the show because Will looks so much like my husband did in elementary school - bowl cut and all. 

I follow one of the show's hairstylists on Instagram, and she posted a video talking about Will's hair. I didn't watch the whole thing, but in the part I did see, I think she said it had something to do with him not really having developed his own identity yet. I took that to mean sense of style, but like I said, I didn't watch the whole thing, and I could even be misremembering. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: here https://www.instagram.com/reel/CewaWpulfA0/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited June 15, 2022 by janie jones

[Nashville]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:56 PM, peridot said:

The gore is really ramped up this season, I had to look away from Jim moving the chain off his mangled foot.

I was having serious Misery flashbacks, and believe you me when I say that was most definitely not a good thing.

On 5/29/2022 at 4:10 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am guessing it was not uncommon for police to question a minor without a guardian in 1986, and it should be pointed out that they were told that her guardian wasn't around. Presumably, they at some point learned Joyce was out of the country and incommunicado. I don't see cops waiting till she showed up to question El.

Even in the ‘80s most states required the presence of a parent, legal guardian or other “interested adult” (legalspeak for DCS or court-appointed legal advocate) when a minor was being questioned by police.  It wasn’t so much because the courts were all that concerned with the kid’s civil rights; more like because (a) by the ‘80s most states required video recording of all minor interrogations, and (b) prosecutors didn’t want cases getting kicked on procedural grounds because a minor had a clear misunderstanding of - or had been deliberately misled by police on - the finer points of their Miranda rights.

In any case, I doubt the two Barney Fife questioning El were even cleared to conduct their inquiries; since when do unis take the lead on interrogations?  And I about hawked up a hairball when Uni #1 said, with all the seriousness he could muster, “You know the girl you hit?  She got a GRADE TWO CONCUSSION.”  

A GRADE TWO concussion!?!?  Like omigawd, is she going to live?  When’s the funeral?  What does that even mean!?!?

I’ll tell you what it means - it means little Miss Bitch had a headache for more than 15 minutes, but never lost consciousness.  Hardly time to call the embalmer yet, boys.  Sheesh….  🙄

On 6/6/2022 at 11:38 AM, Redrum said:

I mean honestly I could care less if Will is gay or straight. It has literally no bearing on any of the stories running. Would it be good to have a little more representation, sure.... but would it make any difference overall? To the whole Vecna Upside-down battle of good and evil?

Depends; if Vecna is a switch-hitter, it might open up some extra options….  😈

[Dev F]

12 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But I will also say that particularly in season 2, I think a lot of the subtext of Will's plot line was about sexual abuse. His line about "feeling him everywhere" and the initial misdirection around whether or not Bob was a good or bad guy seemed like they were inviting us to draw parallels to victims of childhood sexual abuse. It's a complicated story to tell, especially with a character they are suggesting is gay

Oh, a hundred percent. One of the things that makes Noah Schnapp's S2 performance so remarkable is how it plays into that subtext, even though I'm sure they didn't tell a twelve-year-old kid that he should play his character's demonic possession storyline like an abuse victim. Just the little shudder of revulsion he gives when Will explains that he senses the Shadow Monster "in this house and . . . in me" is so telling.

The subtextual weight of Will's trauma also makes me think that Vecna is going to be drawn to him like a magnet the second he steps foot back in Hawkins. It would be a hell of a thing to guilt him with, the idea that Mike will never love him, that no one ever will, that it means he belongs in the darkness with Vecna and the Mind Flayer.

It honestly makes me question the writers' decision to focus Will's potential coming out so singularly on his feelings for Mike, who likely doesn't reciprocate. While I would expect Mike to be accepting and even sweet in response to any sort of romantic confession, it would be tough to sell "I don't feel that way but I'll always love you as a friend" as an antidote to a lie as poisonous as "No one could ever love you the way you love them, except for us."

9 hours ago, janie jones said:

I follow one of the show's hairstylists on Instagram, and she posted a video talking about Will's hair. I didn't watch the whole thing, but in the part I did see, I think she said it had something to do with him not really having developed his own identity yet.

Which I would a hundred percent have accepted until this season, in which Will's arc seems so clearly centered around him having finally come to terms with his own feelings and fretting instead about how to express them to other people, and in particular Mike. I mean, I guess you could see it as a part of that same anxiety: he's reluctant to express a different sense of style for fear of what it might tell people about him. But the bowl cut in particular was such a hallmark of his previous self-deception—his season 3 pose that he was just a little kid who wanted to play D&D and would never fall in love—that I would at least expect him to adopt a more neutral haircut, even if he wasn't ready for one that actively expressed some particular style.

[meep.meep]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:59 PM, tennisgurl said:

I know a lot of terrible stuff is happening here, but do you know the real crime? Will’s bowl cut, it hurts my eyes. Joyce, I know your busy, but take that poor child to a hair appointment as soon as possible. 

I'm late to the party, but I agree 100%.  Why she doesn't have those kids in therapy is another big question.

So your name is Eleven and you're on the run as Jane?  Why wouldn't you go for Ellen or Elaine so that your friends calling you El don't have to explain why?

[Taryn74]

11 hours ago, Nashville said:

A GRADE TWO concussion!?!?  Like omigawd, is she going to live?  When’s the funeral?  What does that even mean!?!?

I’ll tell you what it means - it means little Miss Bitch had a headache for more than 15 minutes, but never lost consciousness.  Hardly time to call the embalmer yet, boys.

😂

37 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

So your name is Eleven and you're on the run as Jane?  Why wouldn't you go for Ellen or Elaine so that your friends calling you El don't have to explain why?

Jane is the name her mother gave her when she was born, before Papa and crew whisked her away. (And I will never not hate the name Jane for her, LOL. Does not fit her AT ALL.)

[janie jones]

Not to mention Jane Hopper is the name on her legal documents.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

So your name is Eleven and you're on the run as Jane?  Why wouldn't you go for Ellen or Elaine so that your friends calling you El don't have to explain why?

I mean, Jane is her legal name. And regardless, all sorts of people have nicknames that are unrelated to their given names (see Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird, whose given name was Jean Louise). Her nickname is Eleven and that's all she needs to say.

[Sarah 103]

20 hours ago, Dev F said:

The subtextual weight of Will's trauma also makes me think that Vecna is going to be drawn to him like a magnet the second he steps foot back in Hawkins. It would be a hell of a thing to guilt him with, the idea that Mike will never love him, that no one ever will, that it means he belongs in the darkness with Vecna and the Mind Flayer.

Wow! That is dark, horrible, brilliant, and I could totally see that happening. 

11 hours ago, meep.meep said:

So your name is Eleven and you're on the run as Jane?  Why wouldn't you go for Ellen or Elaine so that your friends calling you El don't have to explain why?

What they should have done when they were making the fake birth certificate with her name as Jane Hopper is give her a middle name that would make "El" a logical nickname (I've always thought Eleanor might work because of the song "Eleanor Rigby" and she was born when the parents might well have been Beatles fans. Ellen or Elaine works well too). Hopper knew the boys were calling her "El" didn't he?  

[Taryn74]

58 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

What they should have done when they were making the fake birth certificate with her name as Jane Hopper is give her a middle name that would make "El" a logical nickname (I've always thought Eleanor might work because of the song "Eleanor Rigby" and she was born when the parents might well have been Beatles fans. Ellen or Elaine works well too).

I thought they should have done that, too.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/14/2022 at 11:40 PM, Nashville said:

Even in the ‘80s most states required the presence of a parent, legal guardian or other “interested adult” (legalspeak for DCS or court-appointed legal advocate) when a minor was being questioned by police.  It wasn’t so much because the courts were all that concerned with the kid’s civil rights; more like because (a) by the ‘80s most states required video recording of all minor interrogations, and (b) prosecutors didn’t want cases getting kicked on procedural grounds because a minor had a clear misunderstanding of - or had been deliberately misled by police on - the finer points of their Miranda rights.

I am not sure that most states actually required a parent/guardian to be present for questioning. Rather, they probably required a parent/guardian to be notified that the minor was in custody 

This appears to be from a study done around 2000 that didn't seem to support that even then actual presence of an adult for 16+ kids was required in most states.

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/2000-R-0282.htm

Even accepting for discussion's sake that there were requirements for presence of an adult for interrogation of a minor, I would say that it is believable to me that some cops would blow those rights off back in the 1980s. From my quick googling, four of the Central Park Five (famous late 80s case where minority teens were accused of sexually assaulting a white woman) did not have their parents present during their interrogations. (And of course, in this particular case, the parent was unavailable, so it would seem unrealistic to me that they would literally hold off on questioning until Joyce landed in Alaska and somehow attempt to reach out to her there in the days before e-mail or cell phones were commonly used)

Edited June 16, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[janie jones]

21 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

What they should have done when they were making the fake birth certificate with her name as Jane Hopper is give her a middle name that would make "El" a logical nickname (I've always thought Eleanor might work because of the song "Eleanor Rigby" and she was born when the parents might well have been Beatles fans. Ellen or Elaine works well too). Hopper knew the boys were calling her "El" didn't he?  

Hopper wasn't involved with her getting her documents, though, was he? It appeared to me that Owens surprised him with the birth certificate at the end of season 2. It would have made sense for Owens to put the middle name she was given at birth on the birth certificate, but she didn't have any at all.

[Paloma]

On 5/28/2022 at 4:20 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Joyce and Murray are in Alaska now, and it looks like Hopper is already starting his escape plan.  Which involved having a fellow prisoner break his foot so that he can slip off his chain. 

That didn't make sense to me because if his foot is broken or even injured in another way, wouldn't it swell up and make it harder to get the chain off? Not to mention, even if he did get the chain off, how would he walk or run with a broken or badly injured foot?

[nodorothyparker]

It feels like the least surprising reveal ever that Hawkins is apparently this universe's version of Derry, Maine, where evil lurks beneath and blows up with some regularity in orgies of Stephen King inspired carnage.

I'm not really convinced Dr. Owens was really giving Eleven free choice either, although he was doing a decent job of painting it in those terms as the thing to best sway her. Oh the world may end and all your friends will probably be turned into pulp if you don't do this, but hey, totally up to you. No pressure. He also knows, as she doesn't yet, that the military guys are hot on her scent and the choice is likely to be taken out of her hands anyway if they catch up with her. There's also the matter that for all his claiming he doesn't know her very well, he's obviously been keeping tabs on her this whole time. It's hard to know from that just how much he really knows but he didn't seem at all surprised or caught off guard by her admission that she doesn't have her powers any more. At least this sort of confirmed for me that it wasn't really Joyce's idea to rip Eleven and Will away from the support system they had in Hawkins that's left them both so isolated and miserable, as that's something I was wondering about last episode with all the bullying.

Eleven being hauled off by the cops and then questioned with nary a parent or attorney present is why I didn't take any particular joy in her clocking mean girl last episode. I figured something like that would happen although I realize that may have been the setup to get her into Owens' orbit. Joyce really is the ultimate '80s parent scooting off to Alaska with almost no notice to the houseful of teenagers she left behind. Murry and the pot-addled dopes at the dinner table were at least entertaining. 

I'm really over the whole jocks going vigilante storyline. The only thing remotely interesting about it is Lucas realizing just what he's latched onto in his quest to finally leap the divide to the popular kids while still feeling his ties to his original crew. The Steve-Nancy-Johnathan triangle is also the least interesting thing about any of those characters. I loved the Robin-Nancy pairing even if I was originally with Nancy in just wanting her to shut up shut up shut up for five minutes.

Can we just skip to the end of getting Hopper out of Siberia? The cast is scattered in too many disparate directions as it is.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:48 PM, Redrum said:

My interpretation of Will in season three was a kid who saw everyone in his circle growing up and moving away from him while he was still suffering from some trauma and really wanted things to stabilize and be exactly as they were before the trauma happened. No girls, best friends who wanted to be friends with him and play D&D, and the whole thing with Mike was Will realizing things were never going to be the same and that he needed to move on and accept that things were different.

This was my take on things, as well.

When Mike threw that "Its not my fault you don't like girls!" jab at Will, I saw it through the lens of it being more about the subtext of dickishly telling him to 'Grow up!' instead of 'Its not my fault you're gay'.

But considering all the rest of the 'Will is gay' subtextual hints they've been throwing out there, I could see it as that being something Mike meant with that line, too.

[janie jones]

18 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

When Mike threw that "Its not my fault you don't like girls!" jab at Will, I saw it through the lens of it being more about the subtext of dickishly telling him to 'Grow up!' instead of 'Its not my fault you're gay'.

To me, the point Mike was trying to make was that Will didn't see the importance of the others' relationship drama. His sexual orientation is irrelevant. If Will liked boys, and were interested in relationships, he would get it. The point is that he isn't interested in relationships and it doesn't make sense for Mike to bring up Will being gay.

Additionally, you hear adults saying "does so-and-so like girls yet" meaning are they starting to be interested in dating, not girls as apposed to boys. That seemed to me to be the turn of phrase Mike was after.

[QuantumMechanic]

33 minutes ago, janie jones said:

Additionally, you hear adults saying "does so-and-so like girls yet" meaning are they starting to be interested in dating, not girls as apposed to boys. That seemed to me to be the turn of phrase Mike was after.

Yeah.  That almost always has a primary meaning of "Does he want to date?" (though assuming het) rather than "Is he gay?"

If you drop the "yet", then it is more likely to mean "is he gay?".

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

4 hours ago, janie jones said:

To me, the point Mike was trying to make was that Will didn't see the importance of the others' relationship drama. His sexual orientation is irrelevant. If Will liked boys, and were interested in relationships, he would get it. The point is that he isn't interested in relationships and it doesn't make sense for Mike to bring up Will being gay.

Additionally, you hear adults saying "does so-and-so like girls yet" meaning are they starting to be interested in dating, not girls as apposed to boys. That seemed to me to be the turn of phrase Mike was after.

That's what I was trying to say.

He said it in a waspish way, but Mike was basically telling Will that he & Lucas & Dustin were not solely interested in playing D&D 24/7/365 anymore.  They had other interests outside 'The Party';  IE, that girls being interested in them - and kissing them - wasn't "eww, gross!" anymore.

But due to Will's arrested development, essentially having about 1.5 years of his developing childhood stolen from him (held prisoner in the Upside-Down for a week of one year, and then possessed by the Mind Flayer for a portion of the next year) has left him still seeing life through a gap that's behind the rest of his age group friends and contemporaries.  Not only is he behind the rest of them on the emotional/social development curve, but he also has to deal with being expected to somehow skip over that lost time and be on their level without being allowed to arrive there on his own schedule.

Edited June 27, 2022 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Hotel Snarker]

Nancy's face when she saw the gang and realizes it’s happening again.

"Always the goddamn babysitter!" STEVE IS BEST MOM AND I WILL NOT HEAR OTHERWISE.

The sequence with Max where she realizes her own experiences matches Fred's and Chrissy's is so cool, especially with the music. YOU LEAVE MAX ALONE, VECNA!

Jonathan seeing Murray cook risotto in the kitchen high as hell is so damn wholesome. Stoned Jonathan and Argyle are fucking great.

If that discussion/fight between El and Mike wasn’t a set up for Mike to finally communicate an all caps I LOVE YOU to El later on in Volume 2, I’ll eat my shoe.

Right when I started to lose faith in Lucas, our boy gets them to a decoy house and runs.

I think the psychologist is Vecna. She knows who to prey on and what their traumas are, and she wore a clock necklace. The scene started in her house by zooming in on her clock.

[LeGrandElephant]

Did Lucas take them to where Eddie actually is or somewhere else? I sure hope it was the latter!

Also can someone explain the building that the basketball team is hanging out in?

Edited July 7, 2022 by LeGrandElephant

[janie jones]

21 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Also can someone explain the building that the basketball team is hanging out in?

As I recall, it was the restaurant that El went to in the first season, where the owner helped her, but called the authorities, which got him killed. It has apparently been abandoned since then.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, janie jones said:

As I recall, it was the restaurant that El went to in the first season, where the owner helped her, but called the authorities, which got him killed.

Benny's. It broke my heart to see what they had turned his lovely little diner into.

1 hour ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Did Lucas take them to where Eddie actually is or somewhere else?

It was Hopper's old cabin he stayed with El in.

[rejnel]

On 6/27/2022 at 3:51 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Will's arrested development, essentially having about 1.5 years of his developing childhood stolen from him (held prisoner in the Upside-Down for a week of one year, and then possessed by the Mind Flayer for a portion of the next year) has left him still seeing life through a gap that's behind the rest of his age group friends and contemporaries

To me, he seems older and more grounded than the others, this season at least.

[bijoux]

Interesting how the police remember the need for a legal guardian when it suits them. What I wouldn't give for a scene where Hopper, or Joyce for that matter, finds out about this is storms the station.

Also interesting - the basketball team save for the two dudes plus Lucas apparently abandoning ship on this crazed vigilante mission. Jason, you are an insane person. I never doubted that Lucas would lead them to the Party. Even if he didn't care for Eddie, no way would he have endangered Max and Dustin like that. Sending them to Hopper's place was a smart move. It's a believable hide out and he knew no one was there.

Jonathan is pretty useless but he was loads of fun durig dinner with his delayed, confused reactions.

A lot of the kids look older than their characters but one of Eddie's bandmates has a full on Jack Black in The School of Rock  thing going on. I've been suspecting he's actually a teacher since se first saw him in episode 1.