S01.E05: Asylum

[AnimeMania]

Marc & Steven search through their memories to find their truth or become left behind.

Original Airdate: April 27, 2022

[Bill1978]

How can a show make me care so much about a character dying when technically the character is still alive? Man I hope this gets undone next week. Cannot believe it is the final episode next week though. I feel we need at least two more episodes to really wrap things up.

I honestly do not know much about DID and truthfully most of what I think I know is from movies and tv, but do identities know they are the 'fake' one or the 'real' one. Cause Hollywood has given me the impression that identities know about each other and kinda view the body as a vessel for all of them to hang out in. So it was interesting to see Steven be shocked that he was created to help Marc cope.

I honestly was expecting that the scale couldn't balance until Marc acknowledged their was a third identity and I honestly expected the third identity to appear while fighting the 'zombies'.

Still a bit confused with the Asylum aspect (the one with Dr Harrow), but I am a simple man who can just focus on what I like to call the real part (the one with Steven and Marc together) while not thinking too much about the Asylum.

I'm really enjoying the fact that this is an MCU property without any true links to the MCU. It's refreshing cause you can watch it without having any idea about the MCU and still enjoy it. And I've been really enjoying learning about the religion of Ancient Egypt. If they can stick the final episode this will probably leapfrog Loki (too much talking from a character we just met) and possibly even Hawkeye (bit too much organised crime malarky for me) as my favourite MCU TV series.

 

[Spartan Girl]

Marc/Steven’s mom can rot in hell.

So is Steven really gone for good?! I hope not.

2 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

I'm really enjoying the fact that this is an MCU property without any true links to the MCU. It's refreshing cause you can watch it without having any idea about the MCU and still enjoy it. And I've been really enjoying learning about the religion of Ancient Egypt. If they can stick the final episode this will probably leapfrog Loki (too much talking from a character we just met) and possibly even Hawkeye (bit too much organised crime malarky for me) as my favourite MCU TV series.

Yeah, but I’m sure the finale next week will have a post-credit scene or something that ties it to the MCU. I have a bad feeling I know what it is, but I won’t post my suspicions in case I’m wrong.

[Bill1978]

3 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, but I’m sure the finale next week will have a post-credit scene or something that ties it to the MCU.

I can deal with a post credit scene. I can also deal with possibly a stronger reference in the episode. I'm not opposed to MCU references. But overall I like how I can recommend it to someone without having to tell them to watch everything prior. I have a friend who basically won't watch the Dinsey+ shows as it requires her to watch too many movies to understand the basic plot. Moon Knight doesn't require her to watch anything before hand. It reminds me of the Ant-Man movies. Techincally they can be enjoyed by themselves. The stories told are very self contained and not linked to the bigger picture - ignoring the mid-credit scenes etc.

[arc]

Oscar Isaac acted the hell out of this episode, damn.

Also, I'm a sucker for a good memory palace episode, esp when it'll do that thing where a door opens to a completely different environment than what one would expect.

Edited April 27, 2022 by arc

[steelyis]

Dammit, Show! Watching this episode wasn't supposed to rip my heart out too! This is supposed to be a fun superhero show for crying out loud!

Kudos to Marc's dad for trying to hold everything together. You don't see men being the supportive, emotional rock of a family in media very often. But also boo to him ignoring how unhinged his wife was. The woman should have been locked away! Ugh. I'm nauseous just thinking about what she put her son through!

It was so sweet to see Steven be what he was really created to do, which was to help Marc deal with his trauma, and tell him none of what happened was ever his fault. He was never just a stress ball! My heart, y'all! My heart!

[Enigma X]

Before Moon Knight (the series), I was doing some research on DID for something I am writing. I am far from an expert and  hope what I am going to say about a fictional character is not offensive to people with this ailment.

I hope we have not lost Steven. I realize that Steven being a part of Marc is not truly lost since Marc is still a character (alive?) within this show. I want both Marc and Steven to survive this. I am all about character-driven stories and Steven is a character I have grown to love.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Enigma X

[Chicago Redshirt]

I can't really put myself in the place of someone unfamiliar with the MCU since I've watched most everything in it or close to it with the exception of some deleted scenes, extras and most of the Inhumans. But I dunno. I don't think that this or any show requires any particular knowledge to get what's going on.

Like in this episode, it's nice for me as an MCU viewer to know when Hippo Goddess references the Ancestral Plane, she's talking about the place where T'Challa met with the spirits of his dad and other ancestors as seen in Black Panther. Does not knowing that dramatically change things for some viewers? I wouldn't think so. 

[Enigma X]

I am one of those MCU viewers who would like to see a greater connection to the MCU with more small Easter eggs to things like the ancestral plane. This would not cause a casual MCU viewer to watch previous shows/movies. They would still be able to enjoy the show.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, steelyis said:

Kudos to Marc's dad for trying to hold everything together. You don't see men being the supportive, emotional rock of a family in media very often. But also boo to him ignoring how unhinged his wife was. The woman should have been locked away! Ugh. I'm nauseous just thinking about what she put her son through!

I really don’t get why he didn’t just take Marc and leave her. Nobody in the world would have blamed him.

[vb68]

I wasn't prepared for Steven to die. I was not expecting that at all.

I was also never expecting an MCU show  to play like an even harsher version of Ordinary People. (Fantastic movie, btw.)

Not only do you not have to have any prior MCU knowledge, for this episode you don't even have to like superhero shows.

This episode was really something. Yes, it was an awesome acting showcase for Oscar Isaac. 

But damn. Steven!!

[Emcber]

I might be in the minority here but am I the only one not that sad to see Steven go (although I have a feeling he’ll be back)? Also I’m curious how they’ll wrap this up because the show still feels like it’s just getting started. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

Even though I can appreciate and enjoy the acting, directing, and overall atmosphere of the show, it just feels incredibly hollow from a story perspective.

What has been presented in five episodes could have easily been done in two; three tops. Especially since next week is the season finale.

[HelloooKitty]

Holy cow, (or hippo) Oscar Isaac is absolutely tremendous in this. I have been vastly underestimating his ability. I don’t want it to end. 

[johntfs]

Next week is going to either be a giant mess or just a slobber-knocker of an episode.  Lots to do.

[thuganomics85]

Well, damn, that was a trip to say the least!

So, it looks like the main reveal is that Marc was actually the original personality after-all and Steven was created by him as a way to cope whenever Marc is put in an emotionally horrific situation.  Which, in this case, starts out because his mom was physically and emotionally abusing him after his younger brother accidentally died when they were exploring caves together.  Yeah, that was hard to watch.  I know grief can make people do crazy things, but the mother went beyond that and was truly horrifying with the way she blamed her young son for something that at most was due to a careless mistake.  Plus, some of what she said (like claiming Marc was "always jealous" of his younger brother) makes me think she always thought less of him for whatever reasons and this tragedy simply brought out all of her true feelings.  Poor Marc.  At least his father was more supportive, although a truly good one would have either have found a way to separate Young Marc from his mother once he saw what was going on.  But I guess on the MCU father scale, he still might actually be in the upper half?

Tatiana Maslany on Orphan Black will probably always be the queen of "playing multiple characters at the same time" and making me forget they are the same performer, but Oscar Issac is definitely in the top echelon now.  There really were moments I was forgetting Steven and Marc were both being played by the same guy.  It really felt seamless and like the two characters were honestly acting and reacting with one another.  Major gold starts to the directing, editing, and, of course, Isaac's performance (s).

Tawaret was awesome!  One of the most lovable gods out there!

Glad to see Khonshu was just as extra as he normally is when he was recruiting Marc.  So overdramatic!

Steven, no!  Really hoping that there is a swerve here and he isn't gone for good.  Marc's cool and all, but Steven is definitely my favorite.

Still wondering if another personality might show.  I guess we'll find out next week!

[vb68]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Steven, no!  Really hoping that there is a swerve here and he isn't gone for good.  Marc's cool and all, but Steven is definitely my favorite.

Thinking about this some more, it's a little confusing on why "the scales were balanced" after Steven is gone. Marc's a mercenary, who as we have repeatedly been told and shown, was involved in some shady operations. Steven was the one who was purely good at heart and really did want to do the right thing. For the scales to be balanced, it seems like their fates should had been flipped. But what do I know? 

Edited April 27, 2022 by vb68

[angora]

I swear, if Steven's really dead, I will riot. There's got to be a way for him to come back from this, right? Right??

I liked the way that they explored the memories, removing from room to room in the asylum. Steven's reaction to learning these different things was just gutting. And I also liked seeing the different ways throughout the episode Steven and Marc tried to protect each other, whether it was Marc trying to shield Steven from the memories or Steven assuring Marc that the young brother's death wasn't his fault. And how sweet was Steven finding his "inner Marc," so to speak, to defend Marc against the unbalanced souls? But even though he stepped into the fight, he wasn't BECOMING Marc. He was still very much Steven, with his little thumbs-up and comments about cricket.

Taweret is a fun character. I appreciate how the gods we've encountered so far mainly act like people with godlike powers. So Khonshu can be a drama queen who makes insulting comments about Steven, and Taweret can be flustered and not know what the deal is with Steven and Marc.

6 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I honestly do not know much about DID and truthfully most of what I think I know is from movies and tv, but do identities know they are the 'fake' one or the 'real' one. Cause Hollywood has given me the impression that identities know about each other and kinda view the body as a vessel for all of them to hang out in. So it was interesting to see Steven be shocked that he was created to help Marc cope.

I don't know a ton about DID either, but in the ramp-up to Moon Knight, I got interested in learning more about it. The short answer here seems to be, "It varies." If you're interested in learning more, here are a couple of longer pieces that explain a little more about DID, alters, and relationships within systems (people with DID).

In this video from a YouTube channel called The Rings System, alters from two different systems talk about their experiences. Some of the topics include learning to resist the urge to think of themselves as the "original," dealing with the emergence of new alters, and learning not to restrict alters just to their "functions" (a la Marc telling Steven he couldn't witness the traumatic memories because that wasn't what he was "for.") They also talk about learning how to communicate with each other:

In this episode of the podcast System Speak, the host gets into a lot of explanation about alters. She describes their system as having "circles" of alters, where the alters in one circle might be aware of each other but no one from any of the others, while the alters in another circle are aware of everyone in the system. She also shares an analogy from their therapist, which I found really neat (at least I think it's in this episode.) Because dissociation mainly originates in early childhood trauma before the personality is fully developed/cemented, it's not necessarily right or helpful to think of any part of the system as the "original" or the "real" one. The therapist said, "If you drop a bar of chocolate and it breaks into pieces, would you ask which piece is the original chocolate bar?" In that sense, Steven (even if parts of his personality are derived from a fictional character) is just as "chocolatey" as Marc--hence the reason why I'm praying he's not gone for good!

[Enigma X]

4 minutes ago, angora said:

I don't know a ton about DID either, but in the ramp-up to Moon Knight, I got interested in learning more about it. The short answer here seems to be, "It varies." If you're interested in learning more, here are a couple of longer pieces that explain a little more about DID, alters, and relationships within systems (people with DID).

From what I read, you are right that it varies whether people know. It also seems that some alters may know what other alters are doing and the "knowing" alters are not always the original personality.

[Zonk]

Did they explain why Anubis isn't doing his job and Taweret is temping as guardian of the afterlife, with a bunch of cue cards, because that is usually not her job? Is he also stoned?

Really interesting episode. Much, much better than first few.

Also the actor playing young Marc was really really good. It's refreshing to see that there are still good child actors around. Young Picard, we saw an episode or two ago, in the show of the same name, was atrocious. I think people give bad acting performances from children too much of a pass. And I don't mean that as a slight against the children. I mean that as condemnation of the casting departments who don't put in enough energy to find actually good child actors.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Zonk

[Kate47]

I haven't yet finished the episode, but just wanted to say I loved how excited Steven was for Tawaret to do her welcoming speech, index cards and all. 

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Zonk said:

Did they explain why Anubis isn't doing his job and Taweret is temping as guardian of the afterlife, with a bunch of cue cards, because that is usually not her job? Is he also stoned?

Really interesting episode. Much, much better than first few.

Also the actor playing young Marc was really really good. It's refreshing to see that there are still good child actors around. Young Picard, we saw an episode or two ago, in the show of the same name, was atrocious. I think people give bad acting performances from children too much of a pass. And I don't mean that as a slight against the children. I mean that as condemnation of the casting departments who don't put in enough energy to find actually good child actors.

I suspect that Anubis is in the statue prison.  The kid was really good, especially being able to do a decent British accent.

[SnarkShark]

That did NOT go the way I expected.

I find myself wondering how people with D.I.D., or rather "Systems" as they apparently like to be called, will feel about this.  One I've been watching on YT (well, one specific Alter--the others didn't react to the show) had a few unhappy moments with the earlier episodes, but also thought a bunch of other stuff was at least better than "Glass" and other things that show one Alter as evil.  But this one showed one Alter as being conscious of the whole existence of the other, and yes, in truth, using him deliberately as an escape valve.  Which may in fact be why a lot of Alters exist, but from what I've heard, a semi-aware creation of one isn't really a thing.  I mean I guess Steven's initial creation wasn't intentional, but Marc certainly was pretty aware of him even if they didn't communicate.  

 

Also, although I'm 100% sure it's not permanent, Steven's "fate" might go down pretty badly with a crowd who as a core thing regard those Alters as equally existing as the original.  Sometimes even more, if a later Alter becomes the "Host", the one who identifies with the traits of the body and generally is in control the most. 

[Snapdragon]

7 hours ago, vb68 said:

Thinking about this some more, it's a little confusing on why "the scales were balanced" after Steven is gone. Marc's a mercenary, who as we have repeatedly been told and shown, was involved in some shady operations. Steven was the one who was purely good at heart and really did want to do the right thing. For the scales to be balanced, it seems like their fates should had been flipped. But what do I know? 

I think it's supposed to be that since Steven was created as a coping device and a way for Marc to hide from his mother's abuse, Steven now being aware of all the bad parts of Marc's life, and forgiving him for them, caused Marc to face his demons and find closure, thus healing him and making him balanced.  He doesn't need the Steven personality anymore and is now whole again as just Marc.  The whole thing's really quite tragically beautiful, in it's own way.

That being said, I love Steven so I'm hoping this isn't the last we've seen of him.  Not sure how they're going to tie everything up with only one episode left but I'm excited to see how next week goes!

[Zonk]

57 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I suspect that Anubis is in the statue prison.

That's what I hinted at with "Is he also stoned?". :D (the show refered to it as "imprisoned in stone" a few times)

Was just wondering if that was confirmed or just speculation.

[silverstream]

I was surprised we didn't meet a third alter this episode - I thought that was what the whole "scales won't balance" thing was leading up to at first, with them only balancing once a third heart was added. I was extremely surprised when Steven went overboard - I did not expect anything to happen to either of them, and right now I'm inclined to think it's permanent, as there's only one episode left and no talk of a season 2 (as far as I've seen).

Once the fate of Mark's little brother was revealed, it was retroactively heart-breaking to me that we first met him in the room with all the people Mark had killed/felt guilty about killing. And then the movie poster in Mark's childhood room... this episode sure had its share of emotional gutpunches.

Loved that we got a flashback to Khonshu and Mark first meeting, and the music leading up to that scene was amazing!

[tennisgurl]

I was not at all prepared for something so emotionally draining, I was almost happy to see the sand zombies just to give us some action to give me a break from the sadness, but then we couldn't even get that relief! Come on Taweret, you were supposed to pull out Marc/Steven's hearts, not mine! Oh Steven, your not just a stress ball. Steven might be a persona created out of Marc's horrible trauma, as I have suspected for awhile, but I love him for being Steven, not just being a part of Marc. I loved him telling Marc in no uncertain terms that none of this was his fault, this time being his "stress ball" as a friend not just a coping mechanism, and that he even got to channel his inner Marc to save him from the sand zombies, even if it ended up costing him his life. They better bring my sweet British cinnamon roll back.  

Marc's backstory was terribly painful, Marc's mom's horrible abuse towards him was way harder to watch than any of the violence we have seen so far, what a horrible person. I can feel sympathy losing a child, but taking it out on your other child is despicable. At least his dad tried to be a good parent and keep the family together, but he seemed to be in denial over how far his wife had gone off the deep end, he really should have taken Marc and left her way when he saw how she was treating him. Its especially depressing seeing Marc's brother in his room full of people he killed, even years later Marc still blames himself for his brothers death. 

Taweret was a ton of fun, much needed comic relief in such a serious episode. I loved the real of the big ship on the massive dessert sea, that looked so cool, I have always been interested in ancient Egyptian mythology and I think this show has done a great job exploring it, coming up with a lot of epic visuals and weaving it into both the action and the more personal story of Marc. 

As an MCU fan I quite enjoy the connections with the greater universe, like the reference to the Ancestral Plane, the place where the ancestors of the Black Panthers go after death, but I think there is something to be said about this show being more standalone. The rest of the Disney+ shows have been very heavily tied into the greater MCU, I like that this one is doing its own thing and is easily accessible to new fans.

I know that I sing his praises every week, but this was an absolute power house performance from Oscar Isaac, he was amazing as both Marc and Steven. It continues to impress me at how easy it is to tell who is Marc and who is Steven just by his expressions and body language. His emotions were so raw sometimes that I felt like I was intruding on something personal. 

[Bill1978]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

As an MCU fan I quite enjoy the connections with the greater universe, like the reference to the Ancestral Plane, the place where the ancestors of the Black Panthers go after death,

I had no idea referencing the Ancestral Plane was an MCU connection. I honestly thought it was just more of the Ancient Egyptian stuff. Guess I shouldn't be surprised I didn't pick up on this since I've only watched Black Panther once.

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, SnarkShark said:

Which may in fact be why a lot of Alters exist, but from what I've heard, a semi-aware creation of one isn't really a thing.  I mean I guess Steven's initial creation wasn't intentional, but Marc certainly was pretty aware of him even if they didn't communicate.  

I don't think Mark was consciously aware of Steven until the scene after his mother's death. Mark said something along the lines of their lives "bleeding into each other" from that point onwards, and "creating" Steven as a safetly valve wouldn't really have made much sense if he was aware of everything that happened anyway, just not fronting.

That said, I'm still not sure how Steven managed to get a flat/job at a renown museum/people that know him as Steven that fast, or at all.

[tkc]

Such an affecting episode! Great job by Oscar Isaac in playing each alter, but also in playing the interactions between each alter!

The trip on Taweret's boat reminded me of Moonwind's ship in Soul:

...and Marc saying goodbye to Steven reminded me of a farewell to a certain spherical someone:

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by tkc

[Bill1978]

1 hour ago, tkc said:

The trip on Taweret's boat reminded me of Moonwind's ship in Soul:

Glad I wasn't the only one who thought this.

If we assume that the Afterlife aspect of this episode are real, then what is the purpose of the Asylum aspect? Other than to confuse the audience from a story point of view. Because at this moment the way it's framed it makes me think the Asylum part is real and the Afterlife is fake. And I dpn't want that. I don't want the whole series to have been basically a fake out.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Bill1978 said:

If we assume that the Afterlife aspect of this episode are real, then what is the purpose of the Asylum aspect? Other than to confuse the audience from a story point of view. Because at this moment the way it's framed it makes me think the Asylum part is real and the Afterlife is fake. And I dpn't want that. I don't want the whole series to have been basically a fake out.

Tawaret told Marc that the Asylum was his mind trying to make sense of what he was experiencing. He knows he is mentally ill, so his subconscious placed him in a psychiatric hospital rather than face up to what was actually happening. The Asylum was fake (that's why Marc and Steven could run through its doors into other places and times entirely). The Afterlife was real.

My main confusion at this point revolves around seeing Child Marc disappear into Steven just before a beating. If Steven was created as a coping mechanism to allow Marc to hide from his mother's cruelty, why is Steven the one who doesn't remember the beatings? He was the one who experienced the beating in that memory. Seems like it should have been the other way around - the beating first, followed by Marc disappearing into oblivious Steven.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Llywela

[Bill1978]

15 minutes ago, Llywela said:

My main confusion at this point revolves around seeing Child Marc disappear into Steven just before a beating. If Steven was created as a coping mechanism to allow Marc to hide from his mother's cruelty, why is Steven the one who doesn't remember the beatings? He was the one who experienced the beating in that memory. Seems like it should have been the other way around - the beating first, followed by Marc disappearing into oblivious Steven.

So glad you mentioned this because I've been thinking a lot about the episode today and I kept coming back to this moment and wondering if I had heard things wrong or misinterpreted what I saw. I agree with you, Marc is the one that should have experienced the beating in that scene and not Steven UNLESS what we were shown was Steven appearing and then just as mum went to hit Steven, Marc returned. I don't; know. But that scene seemed to not follow the 'rules' it was mentioning as as the scene played out

 

18 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Tawaret told Marc that the Asylum was his mind trying to make sense of what he was experiencing. He knows he is mentally ill, so his subconscious placed him in a psychiatric hospital rather than face up to what was actually happening. The Asylum was fake (that's why Marc and Steven could run through its doors into other places and times entirely). The Afterlife was real.

I get the Asylum maze aspect as explained by Tawaret and all those scenes, but I don't understand the Dr Harrow scenes at all. Like when it's Marc speaking to Dr Harrow, is Steven just standing around with Tawaret twiddling his thumbs in the Asylum Maze waiting for Steven to return and vice versa. Whereas if Dr Harrow is real the story shown makes sense because every time with go to the Tawaret Asylum, its when Marc has been drugged and therefore is dreaming it. From a narrative point of view I don't understand the flashing backwards and forwards with Dr Harrow if the Afterlife is real (and I believe the Afterlife is  the real Marc/Steven)

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

My main confusion at this point revolves around seeing Child Marc disappear into Steven just before a beating. If Steven was created as a coping mechanism to allow Marc to hide from his mother's cruelty, why is Steven the one who doesn't remember the beatings? He was the one who experienced the beating in that memory. Seems like it should have been the other way around - the beating first, followed by Marc disappearing into oblivious Steven.

Yes thank you for this. I had a big WTF look on my face during this scene. From what we were shown, Steven is the one summoned/created (Steven Grant the man without fear) to face down the beatings, which in my head means he should have no happy memories of his mother at all. Marc even saying he wanted to protect Steven from those memories would absolutely mean it should have been the other way around, that Steven was the original and Marc was created to protect him.

[Capricasix]

5 hours ago, tkc said:

The trip on Taweret's boat reminded me of Moonwind's ship in Soul:

 

Yes, I thought of that as well. My father died a few months before Soul was released, and I wept buckets after watching it…Dad also loved to play the piano, and the lead character reminded me of him in that way.

[Kate47]

I think the unnamed third alter was the one created to take the actual beatings. Steven was created to live a happy, normal childhood and life while Marc carried the guilt. I believe that Marc pulling Steven away and saying "you don't need to see that" also happens inside his mind when his mother begins the physical abuse--he shuffles Steven away and the third alter bears the brunt. 

ETA: I'm honestly not sure Marc's even aware he's doing so, it looks like neither of them know who the third alter is or are aware of him. But he's definitely the most unreservedly violent and unhinged.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Kate47

[Kate47]

Double posting because I had a ruminate. I think the psych ward with Harrow is also within Marc's mind. I think it's a way for his mind to force his alters together and have the conversations he needs to have. So there are a few layers: the sessions with Harrow at the top level that pulls from things his (acknowledged) alters experienced recently to create this therapy session, then the next level is the interactive memory part of the asylum, and then the final level is the boat.

Tawaret mentioned untethered consciousnesses, so I'm thinking of the whole experience like that. The meetings with Harrow are Marc's top level consciousness trying to create some structure for the situation, and maybe how he fronts within his mind.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Kate47

[SnarkShark]

6 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

So glad you mentioned this because I've been thinking a lot about the episode today and I kept coming back to this moment and wondering if I had heard things wrong or misinterpreted what I saw. I agree with you, Marc is the one that should have experienced the beating in that scene and not Steven UNLESS what we were shown was Steven appearing and then just as mum went to hit Steven, Marc returned. I don't; know. But that scene seemed to not follow the 'rules' it was mentioning as as the scene played out

In context, they made it obvious Mark was the one who experienced the beatings.  They just did a bad edit there because we didn't see or hear him switch back. 

2 hours ago, Kate47 said:

I think the unnamed third alter was the one created to take the actual beatings. Steven was created to live a happy, normal childhood and life while Marc carried the guilt. I believe that Marc pulling Steven away and saying "you don't need to see that" also happens inside his mind when his mother begins the physical abuse--he shuffles Steven away and the third alter bears the brunt. 

ETA: I'm honestly not sure Marc's even aware he's doing so, it looks like neither of them know who the third alter is or are aware of him. But he's definitely the most unreservedly violent and unhinged.

The complication is that Marc clearly remembers the beatings, at least enough to try to prevent Steven from finding out about them. 

I think the third Alter is about dealing with the rage, not the pain.  That said, Marc himself seems to remember many of the things (if not all) we're implying that Alter did, but in a way different from how he remembers Steven's actions.  He identifies himself as the person who executed people for Khonsu.  He was totally unsurprised at the scene outside his mother's Shiva.  And when the scene jumps from the version with the farked up nose getting injected, we know it's remembered by Marc, because he brings it up later.  Unless they're going to reveal he switched back immediately before the injection.   The killings that neither Marc nor Steven did is the only thing it's clearly stated that Marc doesn't remember, other than the vague statement we get this episode that there are things he doesn't remember.  

Somehow, it's almost like this third Alter thinks he's Marc, mostly, but is starting to become another person.  But it's not done yet. The third sarcophagus has to be opened before he actually fully becomes Jake (the name most of us expect to be used).  Before that, he's just the worst version of Marc.  The recent blank spot in memory may be one of his first birth pangs.  A temporary outing, where he may not have had his own full personality, but Marc is starting to separate from him.

Edited April 28, 2022 by SnarkShark

[Llywela]

27 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

In context, they made it obvious Mark was the one who experienced the beatings.  They just did a bad edit there because we didn't see or hear him switch back. 

The complication is that Marc clearly remembers the beatings, at least enough to try to prevent Steven from finding out about them. 

I think the third Alter is about dealing with the rage, not the pain.  That said, Marc himself seems to remember many of the things (if not all) we're implying that Alter did, but in a way different from how he remembers Steven's actions.  He identifies himself as the person who executed people for Khonsu.  He was totally unsurprised at the scene outside his mother's Shiva.  And when the scene jumps from the version with the farked up nose getting injected, we know it's remembered by Marc, because he brings it up later.  Unless they're going to reveal he switched back immediately before the injection.   The killings that neither Marc nor Steven did is the only thing it's clearly stated that Marc doesn't remember, other than the vague statement we get this episode that there are things he doesn't remember.  

Somehow, it's almost like this third Alter thinks he's Marc, mostly, but is starting to become another person.  But it's not done yet. The third sarcophagus has to be opened before he actually fully becomes Jake (the name most of us expect to be used).  Before that, he's just the worst version of Marc.  The recent blank spot in memory may be one of his first birth pangs.  A temporary outing, where he may not have had his own full personality, but Marc is starting to separate from him.

Marc mentioned that he was discharged from the military after going AWOL while in a fugue state. Could that have been the third alter? Because I think if that had been a period when Steven was active, I think he'd have said so, he seems to have been aware of Steven from a young age. But he specifically called it a fugue state. He doesn't know what he was doing at that time - and he also doesn't know about the third alter, so that would seem to fit.

[tennisgurl]

Ouch, just remembered something from episode one. Remember when that bratty little girl told Steven that it “must suck that he’s been rejected from the Field of Reeds”? Poor Steven, that’s some mean foreshadowing.

[FierceCritter]

5 hours ago, Kate47 said:

I think the unnamed third alter was the one created to take the actual beatings. Steven was created to live a happy, normal childhood and life while Marc carried the guilt. I believe that Marc pulling Steven away and saying "you don't need to see that" also happens inside his mind when his mother begins the physical abuse--he shuffles Steven away and the third alter bears the brunt. 

ETA: I'm honestly not sure Marc's even aware he's doing so, it looks like neither of them know who the third alter is or are aware of him. But he's definitely the most unreservedly violent and unhinged.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. 

[Bill1978]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

Marc mentioned that he was discharged from the military after going AWOL while in a fugue state. Could that have been the third alter?

I agree with your thought. Initially I thought it was a moment when Steven appeared but you are right, Steven would have said something about it being him. Fingers crossed we get to see this strongly hinted at 3rd alter. Especially since they strongyl suggested it existence with both Steven and Marc not being aware of taking out those people in Egypt and the unopened sarcophagus in the asylum ship.

[Wynterwolf]

On 4/27/2022 at 6:29 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I really don’t get why he didn’t just take Marc and leave her. Nobody in the world would have blamed him.

I suspect it's because that backstory for what caused Marc's DID is entirely made up for this show, and is completely different from the comic. They obviously didn't want to deal more than just superficially with Marc being Jewish, so they had to invent a whole new trauma for him (in the comics it was related to anti-Semitic violence. And his father, whom he had a complicated relationship with, was a Rabbi).  So I doubt if they had much time to flesh out this backstory and just went with parental abuse = trauma and didn't think much deeper about it. 

I'm glad to see the discussion of little Marc and little Steven! That confused me too and I'm still not sure what they meant to imply there since there wasn't any hint at all that any alter other than Steven received that beating. So I'm still confused by that. 

Outside of the stellar acting, I think this is the first ep that has disappointed me. It felt almost like a random bottle episode when we've only got 6 eps to tell this story. I’m also just not a fan of Very Special Episodes dealing with characterization like it’s a separate thing and not part of the plot. They could have slowly revealed a lot of this throughout the other eps, then at least some of the action here could have also been used to move the plot along. But as a showcase for Oscar to shine, it was gold. 

But with Disney's aversion to "spoilers" it feels like they've taken that to ridiculous extremes to the point where they aren't even telling a story anymore. I feel like I'm sitting in a waiting room, looking at the interesting pictures hanging on the wall, before being let into the finale next week when all the "twists" will be revealed. The only thing I feel like I have to noodle over is why did they show that third sarcophagus last week, but then never even hint at the third alter in this ep once. At first I thought the scales were messed up because they weren't all there, but that obviously wasn't the case.  So yeah, I don't know... I guess I'll just wait for next week?

[dwmarch]

37 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

why did they show that third sarcophagus last week, but then never even hint at the third alter in this ep once.

Spoiler

Speculating but worth spoiler coding if true: the third alter is in the episode. He's the one with the nasty wound on his nose. He seems to have a bit of a different accent that Marc. "You're not a daaahk-tah!"

 

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, dwmarch said:

  Reveal spoiler

Speculating but worth spoiler coding if true: the third alter is in the episode. He's the one with the nasty wound on his nose. He seems to have a bit of a different accent that Marc. "You're not a daaahk-tah!"

 

Spoiler

Hmmm, I had kinda wondered when the blood kept appearing/disappearing. But since they were in sort of a mental construct, there were a lot of things that could have meant. Interesting. Meaningless during this ep, though, since if that is true it was beyond 'subtle' and kinda goes along with all the important reveals being saved for next week. It will be a cool detail to pick up on rewatch after the finale airs. 

 

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I suspect it's because that backstory for what caused Marc's DID is entirely made up for this show, and is completely different from the comic. They obviously didn't want to deal more than just superficially with Marc being Jewish, so they had to invent a whole new trauma for him (in the comics it was related to anti-Semitic violence. And his father, whom he had a complicated relationship with, was a Rabbi).  So I doubt if they had much time to flesh out this backstory and just went with parental abuse = trauma and didn't think much deeper about it. 

*sigh* Yup. And it’s also another example of the MCU’s misogyny in changing canon to make female characters the villains. Kate’s mom being a crime boss instead of her dad, turning Sharon Carter into the Power Broker, and now retconning Marc’s mom into an abuser. Ugh.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Sakura12]

Little Steven appearing before the beating was weird. It would've made more sense to imply the beating by having the mom leave with her belt, then show Marc on the floor, have him become Steven talking about cleaning his room so mum will be happy.

I did like that they brought it back to the little girl in the museum asking Steven what it's like being rejected from the field of reeds. I wonder if she's an avatar for one of the gods. Since we saw Steven not making it, but Marc did.

I'm not sure how they are going to wrap this up in one more episode. I also wish it was a little more connected. They could've gone with Marc naming Steven for Captain America whose middle name is Grant, rather then some made up movie. 

[Orbert]

I found myself with an hour to spare this morning, so I watched the first episode again.  I don't usually do that with shows, but I kinda hoped that some things would make more sense if did.  Also, because I'd spent most of the first several episodes wondering what in the hell was going on, and I hoped that the earlier episodes would also make more sense given what we now know about Steven, Marc, Layla, Mom, all that.

It was amazing!  As others have mentioned, there's the bratty girl who asked what it's like to be rejected from the Field of Reeds.  But also, Taweret was basically fully explained, and I'd completely forgotten that, tossing away everything Steven was saying as Egyptian mythology meant only to show us that Steven really knows his stuff and is wasted as a gift-shop employee.  I guess that's why at the end of Episode 4 I saw a hippo babe saying "Hi!" and went "WTF?" while most people here went "Ah, Taweret!  Egyptian Hippo Goddess of the Afterlife!"

And I hadn't forgotten that Arthur Harrow walks around with glass in his shoes, but I'm pretty sure it means that "Dr. Harrow" is the made-up one, because if the guy with the animated scales tattoo on his arm is the made up one, then how do we know about the glass in his shoes?  It's a detail that hasn't been referenced since, so why would such a detail be included in the backstory of a made-up character?  Hmmm... somehow that realization seemed more profound a few minutes ago.

[arc]

I want the episode title to have a clever double meaning, so… asylum as in “refuge”? Steven has a refuge or is a refuge from the horrors in Marc’s life?

[SnarkShark]

21 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I agree with your thought. Initially I thought it was a moment when Steven appeared but you are right, Steven would have said something about it being him. Fingers crossed we get to see this strongly hinted at 3rd alter. Especially since they strongyl suggested it existence with both Steven and Marc not being aware of taking out those people in Egypt and the unopened sarcophagus in the asylum ship.

I don't think Steven necessarily would have. Steven is an unreliable narrator of events.  We see this demonstrated when he believes he's on the phone with a dead woman. I know earlier in the season some may have felt he was just rambling to an answering machine, but in the instance we see this episode it's clear he's pausing, then acknowledging answers.  Also, some of the YouTube show analysis folks have zoomed in on the phone screen to show he never dialed (actors in scenes usually do, to phone lines set-up for this).  Steven can think he dialed a phone.  Steven can think he had a conversation he didn't.  Ergo, I don't think we can trust that Steven reliably remembers the instances of waking up in a strange place. 

In fact, I bet he only remembers the recent instances after they started "blending".  And actually not even all of those. Proof?  He didn't remember that Chicago street--he outright said that--but we saw him wake up on it.  In fact, when he wakes up outside that countryside he gets shot at and meets Harrow, it seems like it's the first time he's aware of ever waking up outside of England.  He tied himself down and set sand, sure, but he generally also usually got to work successfully, so it's not like waking up in another country (or at least remembering it) was the default.  That's why he was so surprised.  So either another personality (Marc or Jake) navigated him back from Chicago, or Steven himself did it, but it got reinterpreted as something else, or erased. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by SnarkShark