S42.E09: Game of Chicken

[KeithJ]

It's too bad that Tori or Jonathan didn't know (or remember) the Chanelle vote.  Either one of them could have said "but Drea, didn't you and Rocksroy both vote for Chanelle?"

 

[Whimsy]

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[Lisamay665]

So now if anyone votes for them it’s racist?  Well played. 

[DEL901]

21 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

It's too bad that Tori or Jonathan didn't know (or remember) the Chanelle vote.  Either one of them could have said "but Drea, didn't you and Rocksroy both vote for Chanelle?"

 

I am not sure how this is relevant….  Of course they voted strategically.  There was no black alliance.  However it was only when it looked like the merged tribe were picking off the black contestants one by one, it resonated with Drea and MaryAnne.  And I thought they did a good job of explaining why.  

[mojoween]

One thing that may be overlooked because it was right at the beginning was Hai’s highly amusing (to me, anyways) Jekyll and Hyde routine.

“Who wrote my name down? I’m fine.  I’m pissed about it. It’s FINE.”

Rocks’s “there are five guys left” was a dick move even if he didn’t realize it and I’m so glad Omar was like “six” with no hesitation.  I’m starting to feel badly for Romeo because his emotions have to be in a whirlpool with how everyone talks to him.

Edited April 28, 2022 by mojoween

[ProfCrash]

23 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

It's too bad that Tori or Jonathan didn't know (or remember) the Chanelle vote.  Either one of them could have said "but Drea, didn't you and Rocksroy both vote for Chanelle?"

 

That was not what they were reacting to. The overall situation is much bigger then the game. I strongly suspect that they would have been fine with the vote had they expected it. But being surprised by it and looking at the jury brought Maryann and Drea to a different place based on their personal history of treatment in society and their knowledge of a shared history based on their race. 

It is easier to play the game as a game when you don't have that baggage. It is harder to see the game as just a game when you carry that type of baggage. 

We have seen this before with race, gender, and sexuality in the game. Women's alliances normally are discussed because there is a history of discounting women and placing different expectations on how a woman will play the game. Dawn cannot form close ties with people and then stab them in the back because she is a woman. How many male winners have done the same thing? People applaud JT's game because he got close to folks and then voted them out. But god forbid a woman does the same thing, especially a mother. 

These are real issues and they raise their head in the game on a regular basis because they are real issues. I cannot fault Maryann and Drea for their reaction. They were blindsided by what they saw. They are hungry and sleep deprived. They have the knowledge of issues that they have face and that other people with the same skin color have faced. They responded to what they saw based on that history. 

 

[DEL901]

I was thinking some more about Jonathan and his reaction at TC.   I think he first reacted the way many people would as a knee jerk reaction…defending their character.   Where he really went wrong was not listening.  His defences kicked in and he didn’t hear anything but talk about race which he took as an accusation, rather than Drea explaining what triggered such strong emotions for her.    And as a white person of some privilege beyond the standard white privilege (his dad is a prominent local politician and I am sure his physical prowess has gained him privilege), he may have been oblivious to the tone deafness of his comments.   I hope he does some reflecting and learning/personal growth because although it isn’t all about race in his world, I am sure the same can’t be said for Drea or MaryAnne.  

His discussion with Lindsey he was so excited to have a chance to make a big move and get rid of Drea’s advantages, his ears stopped working and he couldn’t listen and realize Lindsay was making important points.  He showed himself in a poor light in this discussion as well.  He can only see his own perspective and seems to have a hard time with any other POVs when they are outside his personal experience.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by DEL901

[ProfCrash]

2 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

I was thinking some more about Jonathan and his reaction at TC.   I think he first reacted the way many people would as a knee jerk reaction…defending their character.   Where he really went wrong was not listening.  His defences kicked in and he didn’t hear anything but talk about race which he took as an accusation, rather than Drea explaining what triggered such strong emotions for her.    And as a white person of some privilege beyond the standard white privilege (his dad is a prominent local politician), he may have been oblivious to the tone deafness of his comments.   I hope he does some reflecting and learning/personal growth because although it isn’t all about race in his world, I am sure the same can’t be said for Drea or MaryAnne.  

His discussion with Lindsey, on the other hand, he was so excited to have a chance to make a big move and get rid of Drea’s advantages, his ears stopped working and he could listen and realize Lindsay was making important points.  He showed himself in a poor light in this discussion as well.  He can only see his own perspective and seems to have a hard time with any other POVs when they are outside his personal experience.  

I think that Jonathon's biggest problem is that he doesn't listen. He didn't listen to Lyndsey and he wasn't listening to what Drea or Maryann were saying.

I have less of a problem with his being excited when talking to Lindsey but with his implication that she was talking too fast and was too excited and he couldn't listen to her when she was like that. He was using the, in essence, emotional woman bullshit when he stopped listening the moment that Lyndsey's plan was different then his. His mansplaining and method to shut down the conversation is offensive. 

I don't think that he is a bad person but I think that he needs to do better in understanding where other people are coming from and understanding his privilege and what that affords him. 

I do hope that he watches this and sees how what he did was problematic and adjusts his approach. We have seen him acknowledge that he has to be careful with how he approaches situations because of the optics, he is a big white dude and that can make confrontation hard for him because people can feel physically threatened even if he is not trying to be threatening. So he is aware of some of these things. Maybe he needs a nudge or two to see some of the more subtle issues that exists and he can work on those. 

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, lawrbk said:

But it hit me and it obviously hit Drea and Maryanne. I still like Jonathan but I cringed when he went full ‘it’s not race/I’m not a racist’ straight out of the gate. Not every comment or discussion about race involves calling someone a racist. And Drea wasn’t being aggressive. It’s like as soon as someone (white) hears ‘race’, the defenses go up and all they hear is ‘you’re a racist/people are all racists’.

And why wouldn't they?

In a game where people are voted out and more than half the people remaining are POC, and four non-black people in a row have just been voted out, what in the world is so shocking about two black people being voted out?  Does Drea think CBS can increase diversity and at the same time not have any black people voted out?  Or does she think, like with the Cookout that it's only okay to vote out black people after all the white people are gone?

I'm so tired of hearing optics as a reason.  If "the way things look"  is a reason to burst into tears then Drea must be asking for things to be done just for appearances sake, so the optics will be better, and she wont have to cry? That may happen, but that would be entirely fake and would require producer manipulation.

I also think that when someone is complaining about racism they are always calling someone racist, because racism does not exist without a racist as perpetrator.  So Drea sitting there crying about all the racism she has suffered in her life is most definitely saying something bad about white people.  Who else caused it?  Are the Dreas and Maryannes  talking about some ethereal systemic spirit in the air that doesn't involve any individual white people? 

Of course some people like  Jonathan and many others are going to feel blamed and defensive. In order not to feel called out as a racist you have to believe  Drea and Maryanne are talking about some other white people, not you, who are woke and educated.   If  everyone  else needs to listen and hear,   maybe what white people need to listen and hear is that they are talking about you. 

When Drea talks about how many black people were voted out early on Survivor she's blaming the white people on Survivor who voted them out, not some toothless ,white power, morons bused in for the vote, but the regular white cast members on Survivor. That's how it happened, that's who caused it, that's what she's upset about.   She's calling them racist. 

[peachmangosteen]

I'm glad Jonathan full on showed his ass. Now I have overt reasons for my hatred of him!

We finally get more than a glimpse at Lindsey and she's creeping up there as someone I could possibly root for. 

Hai losing his shit over Romeo voting for him when he had spent the day trying to get Romeo voted out was hilariously maddening. Props to him for calling out the Misogyny Club.

Rockroy's 'I hope they freeze' was amazing. 

I've always liked Mayanne but now I really like her. Someone brought up wishing we had seen more of the Tori/Maryanne relationship and I agree. 

Sorry to see Tori go, but I'm sure she'll have some amazing reactions from jury so I'm excited for that.

[ProfCrash]

15 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I also think that when someone is complaining about racism they are always calling someone racist, because racism does not exist without a racist as perpetrator.  So Drea sitting there crying about all the racism she has suffered in her life is most definitely saying something bad about white people.  Who else caused it?  Are the Dreas and Maryannes  talking about some ethereal systemic spirit in the air that doesn't involve any individual white people? 

Drea and Maryann are pointing to systemic racism that exists and how it colors decisions, even when people think that they are behaving as an ally or in a non-racist manner. It is out there and it is real. And it has influenced Survivor in the past.

The Survivor Producers are 100% behind the initial problems with how they casted people for the show. the number of People of Color was not representative of the overall population and they were casting stereotypes. There has been plenty of conversation about how many "angry Black women" there seemed to be on the show. It was gross. It also means that the Black man who can't swim, a common stereotype that seemed to be perpetuated in the early seasons, was voted out early because he couldn't help the tribe in challenges. His weakness meant he needed to be voted out. 

Production seems to understand that those stereotypes and numbers were BS and are trying to do better in those areas. We have seen an improvement in those areas. 

We saw last season and this season how hard this issue is for Black contestants. The contestants themselves have dealt with the game differently but both groups have been very real about how different it is for them playing the game then it is for a white person playing the game. And that is true. And I applaud them for being able to raise that issue even if it is hard to hear and see on TV.

 

[MerBearHou]

4 hours ago, lawrbk said:

That’s how it’s been before—the second group coming in and all. As they were getting ready to walk in/were walking in, I told my hubby ‘both jury members are black’ and he was like ‘oh wow’. I didn’t know how it would play out but even I, a middle aged white woman, saw the optics. Yes, neither vote was racial and both were voted out at least partly by other POC. But it hit me and it obviously hit Drea and Maryanne. I still like Jonathan but I cringed when he went full ‘it’s not race/I’m not a racist’ straight out of the gate. Not every comment or discussion about race involves calling someone a racist. And Drea wasn’t being aggressive. It’s like as soon as someone (white) hears ‘race’, the defenses go up and all they hear is ‘you’re a racist/people are all racists’. No, they were stating their impressions which were racial and I thought explained it well if you were not just listening but hearing. Talking less, hearing more can actually be a good thing. You don’t even have to end up agreeing with the person, just listen and understand. 

Very well said. 

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm glad Jonathan full on showed his ass. Now I have overt reasons for my hatred of him!

Jonathan talking at Lindsey irked me to no end! 😤

He's telling her that she isn't listening to him while he also isn't listening to her. I want him out just for that interaction. He's too stubborn to work with.

10 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Hai losing his shit over Romeo voting for him when he had spent the day trying to get Romeo voted out was hilariously maddening.

I get Hai losing his shit because Romeo was the only one in the majority alliance that didn't vote for Chanelle (if I'm remembering right). Obviously, Romeo doesn't know that, and thinks the majority hedged their bet and threw some votes his way.

11 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Props to him for calling out the Misogyny Club.

That was hilarious. I was thinking of Rocksroy wants to do an all-male alliance, I'm going to need more reasons than having a penis.

15 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I've always liked Mayanne but now I really like her. Someone brought up wishing we had seen more of the Tori/Maryanne relationship and I agree. 

Sorry to see Tori go, but I'm sure she'll have some amazing reactions from jury so I'm excited for that.

I thought Tori had a great exit! She went out fighting an uphill battle.

[ihartcoffee]

3 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

They needed to end with a screenshot of both drea and rocksroy voting for chanel. This is a game. Im not sure i can watch anymore. I did love seeing the depth of maryanne, but would like to hear from drea why she voted for chanel since she helped put her there. 

Funny how they downplay that part in their mind's.  That's what I find so fake about all this indignation.  

[ProfCrash]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I get Hai losing his shit because Romeo was the only one in the majority alliance that didn't vote for Chanelle (if I'm remembering right). Obviously, Romeo doesn't know that, and thinks the majority hedged their bet and threw some votes his way.

Romeo was not in the alliance of 8, Rosksroy was Drea's choice for that alliance. 

Initially, Maryann, Chanelle, Romeo, and Tori were not in the larger alliance. Maryann was brought into after Rocksroy changed who was going to tribal because she had an immunity idol and no one wanted to put votes on her and have her use the idol leading to Jonathon going home.

[mojoween]

I can’t remember who asked, but CBS created the diversity initiative to have their shows (reality only, or scripted too, I can’t remember) be 50% diverse in the summer of 2020.

Drea voting out Chanelle and her subsequent dismay at Rocksroy sitting next to her are not the same thing.  Drea is perfectly entitled to her feels while she is tired, and starving, and confused.

[watch2much]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

 

These are real issues and they raise their head in the game on a regular basis because they are real issues. I cannot fault Maryann and Drea for their reaction. They were blindsided by what they saw. They are hungry and sleep deprived. They have the knowledge of issues that they have face and that other people with the same skin color have faced. They responded to what they saw based on that history. 

 

I agree with this statement whole heartedly. I recently read an article of how minorities have to approach certain everyday issues differently because of bias.  I can also see that Jonathan's defensiveness to what they said comes because he was only thinking strategically, not racially.   So now non-POC  players will have to take into consideration their strategic moves while also taking in a person's race?  so someone might be considered a threat but they fear trying to vote them out and risk being called racist?  

To me, Survivor strips everyone done to their basic humanity....and it's either a social, strategic,  or physical reason for voting someone out. 

I understand the visual was triggering, but as others have said, they were not the first to be voted out and not without valid reasons. 

I was far more put out by Jonathan's belittling of the women.

[AntFTW]

31 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Romeo was not in the alliance of 8, Rosksroy was Drea's choice for that alliance. 

Initially, Maryann, Chanelle, Romeo, and Tori were not in the larger alliance. Maryann was brought into after Rocksroy changed who was going to tribal because she had an immunity idol and no one wanted to put votes on her and have her use the idol leading to Jonathon going home.

Really? My bad, I thought he was because he was working Drea and Rocksroy initially. I recall Drea bringing in Rocksroy and I thought Romeo was brought in also.

I thought the reason he broke off from them was because he started scrambling and panicking in the previous episode.

Shows how much I'm paying attention 😂

Edited April 28, 2022 by AntFTW

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

Really? My bad, I thought he was because he was working Drea and Rocksroy initially. I recall Drea bringing in Rocksroy and I thought Romeo was brought in also.

I thought the reason he broke off from them was because he started scrambling and panicking in the previous episode.

Shows how much I'm paying attention 😂

Romeo was working with them before the merge. I was initially confused because I thought he was in the 8 but his vote at the first big tribal was not inline with the alliance. Someone corrected me that it was Rocksroy that Drea brought in and not Romeo.

Honestly, I think blue and green were divided enough that their participation was destined to be murky and short lived. Orange was going to take advantage of it and happily knock off green and blue. 

I think all three tribes offered up who they were willing to sacrifice from their original tribes, Jonathon said Maryann but in a confessional said he didn't want to vote out Maryann but needed to offer up someone for appearances sake. Drea offered up Tori. I don't think she threw Romeo under the bus but she didn't include him. And Hai offered up Chanelle. 

[CountryGirl]

Jonathan really disappointed me this episode. Him being dismissive of Lindsey and defensive with Drea and Maryanne - maybe shut up and listen, dude. Neither woman was being aggressive in the slightest. I also don't think they thought it was racist to vote out Chanelle or Rocksroy. Both women Drea voted Chanelle out the previous tribal because they she saw her as untrustworthy and Rocks was voted out by 4 other men who were also POC because of his being a bit too gung-ho on the all male alliance. But when they saw them sitting there, the visual of that hit them hard, which I can only even begin to imagine how hard that was for them to see. That is what they were reacting to.

ETA: Corrected that it was only Drea who voted for Chanelle, but the point still stands.

[cdnalor]

Oh. My. God.  I can't believe Lindsay had to point out to Jonathan that Drea playing her idol would knock Maryanne out of the game.  "We'Re gOiNg tO hAve To tHiNk AbOuT tHiS."  He couldn't think this through?  And then this meatwad has the gall to try gaslighting Lindsay just to try to save what he thinks was his "big move."  Bro, you need to cut back on your gym time and open up a book.  Maybe algebra or something so you can figure out simple equations.

Yeah, I'm not touching the TC segment.

[ProfCrash]

10 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

And they were wrong. Johnathan wanted to align with Rocksroy. He wasn’t voted off because he is black. But Maryanne said she wouldn’t vote off Dre’s because she is black. 
Everyone should remember that and vote Maryanne off next. She should have been gone long ago. Sadly, I think production is upset a non-Black won last season and they will fix it so Maryanne wins this season. 

Maryann and Drea both saw a pattern from society and older Survivor being repeated and decided to change their strategy because they were concerned about that larger pattern.  

Drea also said that she was not going to be a part of the pattern and she was playing her idol. Given that Drea was the target, not because of a pattern but because she had 3 advantages, Drea was being smart. She announced her reason for playing the idol right off the bat. I bet that Drea was worried about tribal any way and seeing Rocksroy there, who wasn't supposed to be there, got her thinking about what might happen in their Tribal. 

Not one person here or at that Tribal said that they thought that any of those votes, or possible votes, were based on race. Drea and Maryann both said that they did not think race played a role in who had been voted out. They both also said that they were surprised by what they saw and that they wanted to make sure that the pattern was broken. 

They both made sure that couldn't happen by playing their idol. 

I actually think Maryann was wrong to play her idol, she didn't need to. She wasn't a target and she knew it. There was no way in hell anyone was voting for her after that conversation. It was a symbolic gesture on her part which I get based on how she was responding but was, really, not great game play. 

 

[TVMovieBuff]

Anyone who is truly racist is going to want to get their hated group out BEFORE jury. The racist would get them out before they could join the jury and have a say in who wins. 

No one did that. I am getting no racist vibes from anyone this season. 

[laurakaye]

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

His discussion with Lindsey he was so excited to have a chance to make a big move and get rid of Drea’s advantages, his ears stopped working and he couldn’t listen and realize Lindsay was making important points. 

I rewound that conversation with Jonathan and Lyndsey because when Lyndsey made her point about Drea possibly playing her idol and they'd likely then lose Maryann, to me Jonathan's face seemed to suggest that he hadn't even considered that, his brilliant plan had a major flaw, and he was mad that she pointed that out to him.  I thought for a hot second he could've saved face in that moment by saying "oh crap, I didn't even think of that," but instead he doubled-down and talked over her and continued man-'splaining.  I think he thought he was being the Season 42 Strategic Genius and instead he just looked stupid.  At first I found that funny but when he went on to talk over Drea at TC I realized that's probably who he really is.

[blackwing]

I don't blame Drea and Maryanne at all for how they feel.  To Drea it looked like that once they got to the merge portion of the game, now it looks like the combined tribe might be picking off the black people one by one..  She said she was playing her idol because she didn't want the same thing to happen to her, she didn't want to be the third black person in a row to get voted out post-merge.  

I do wonder if she had any sense that she was the real target.  She thought that Tori was the target, but I suppose she didn't want to take any chances.

 

14 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Wow.   I am impressed.  MaryAnne showed another side.  She is a seminary student, but unlike Shan last season, she is really living her calling.  

Agree 100%.  I was very impressed with what she was saying.  She was well-spoken and explained her point of view very well.  Others discount her because they think she can be an annoying babbling nonstop talking flake, but she showed in her words that there is a lot more to her.  If she makes it to the end I can see her doing very well at final tribal.  She was very eloquent and convincing.

 

12 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Mike you gotta be kidding me...you wouldn't shut up for weeks about Chanelle being a betrayer and you do the same thing? HYPOCRITE!

Yep.  I was pleased that Mike didn't get his way.  He once again tried bullying people into getting his way, but his #1 ally, Hai, wouldn't cave.  We saw Mike saying he wouldn't vote for Rocksroy because that would signify that he is untrustworthy.  But then somewhere in between that scene and the vote, Hai must have talked to him some more, because Mike voted for Rocksroy.  I guess he knew the vote was lost but I wish we had seen the moment when he realised he wasn't going to get his way.

 

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Drea and Maryann are pointing to systemic racism that exists and how it colors decisions, even when people think that they are behaving as an ally or in a non-racist manner. It is out there and it is real. And it has influenced Survivor in the past.

The Survivor Producers are 100% behind the initial problems with how they casted people for the show. the number of People of Color was not representative of the overall population and they were casting stereotypes. There has been plenty of conversation about how many "angry Black women" there seemed to be on the show. It was gross. It also means that the Black man who can't swim, a common stereotype that seemed to be perpetuated in the early seasons, was voted out early because he couldn't help the tribe in challenges. His weakness meant he needed to be voted out. 

Production seems to understand that those stereotypes and numbers were BS and are trying to do better in those areas. We have seen an improvement in those areas. 

We saw last season and this season how hard this issue is for Black contestants. The contestants themselves have dealt with the game differently but both groups have been very real about how different it is for them playing the game then it is for a white person playing the game. And that is true. And I applaud them for being able to raise that issue even if it is hard to hear and see on TV.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this.  For years and years, Survivor would cast the 1 token black male, 1 token black female, 1 token other minority (Hispanic or Asian), and a slew of white people, often young and hard-bodied.  Then whether it was editing or not, more often than not, the black male would be portrayed as the Lazy Black Male (Gervase, Dreams) and the black female would be portrayed as the Angry or Bossy Black Female (Alicia, Ghandia, Natalie Cole).

I think it is good that the producers are doing more to increase minority representation on this show.  I thought the talk last night was good.  With an increased minority representation on the show, I think that is a good step to make people aware of the inherent bias that exists towards minorities.  This is a majority white country.  Jonathan was saying he isn't racist, and they assured him that they didn't think he was.  But he probably has never walked into a store and received a negative reaction from an employee there and thought "oh it must be because I'm white".  I do think he understood more by the end of the tribal council.

I think the other interesting thing about this is that these players did not watch S41, so they had no idea that there had been a black alliance or any of the discussions that were held during that season, which also discussed the systemic racism that has influenced Survivor in the past.  I think Drea and Maryanne were so much better in explaining their feelings than Shan and Liana were last season.

[SoMuchTV]

One thing I missed in all the kerfuffle - when it was down to Tori and Lyndsey, it was pretty much assumed that Tori would play her shot in the dark, and if she got lucky, Lyndsey would be the one to go.  Why couldn't Lyndsey also play her shot in the dark?  Was she somehow ineligible?  Or was it just so unlikely to help her (1 in 6 chance she would need it, then another 1 in 6 that it would save her) that she didn't want to burn it here?

Or - just thought of this - if Tori got the "safe" shot, there would be no more "safes" left?  At some point they added a 2nd "safe" didn't they?  Apparently I'm the one in the dark.

Edited April 28, 2022 by SoMuchTV

[blackwing]

8 minutes ago, TVMovieBuff said:

Anyone who is truly racist is going to want to get their hated group out BEFORE jury. The racist would get them out before they could join the jury and have a say in who wins. 

No one did that. I am getting no racist vibes from anyone this season. 

No one is ever going to announce on national TV "I'm a racist and I don't want that guy here, so I want him out".  Drea and Maryanne made it clear that they weren't accusing anyone on the show of being racist.  They talked about inherent bias and optics.

What Maryanne said was so true.  She pretty much said that when people watch the show, she will be judged not just as herself, Maryanne, but she will be viewed as a black woman.  She said that she has to be careful about what she says because people will watch the show and say "did you see what that black woman did".  That's how we ended up with the Survivor portrayal of the "angry black woman" after 20+ years and 40+ seasons.  No one would ever look at Jonathan and say "oh there goes that white guy again acting like a meathead".  They might talk about him as a meathead, but it would never be attached with the concept of him being white.

[TVMovieBuff]

Lindsay didn't have to play her shot in the dark. Jonathan Maryanne & Drea were all voting against Tori so she was going. The only last ditch possibility to not go was the shot in the dark. Lindsay was in no danger, didn't need it, and would have lost her vote if she'd played it.

[blackwing]

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

One thing I missed in all the kerfuffle - when it was down to Tori and Lyndsey, it was pretty much assumed that Tori would play her shot in the dark, and if she got lucky, Lyndsey would be the one to go.  Why couldn't Lyndsey also play her shot in the dark?  Was she somehow ineligible?  Or was it just so unlikely to help her (1 in 6 chance she would need it, then another 1 in 6 that it would save her) that she didn't want to burn it here?

Or - just thought of this - if Tori got the "safe" shot, there would be no more "safes" left?  At some point they added a 2nd "safe" didn't they?  Apparently I'm the one in the dark.

I was wondering the same thing... when Tori said she was taking the shot, why couldn't Lindsey also take the shot?  And I do wonder what would have happened if both of them were safe.  There was the infamous TC where Cirie went home because she was the only one who wasn't safe.  But has there ever been a TC where everybody is safe?  I don't think so.  And what would have happened?  3 immunities, 2 safe by shot, so nobody goes home?

Just now, TVMovieBuff said:

Lindsay didn't have to play her shot in the dark. Jonathan Maryanne & Drea were all voting against Tori so she was going. The only last ditch possibility to not go was the shot in the dark. Lindsay was in no danger, didn't need it, and would have lost her vote if she'd played it.

Lindsay was very much in danger.  Jonathan, Maryanne, Drea, Lindsay all voting for Tori.  Tori plays shot.  Tori gets no vote.  If Tori is safe because of the shot, then the votes for Tori are nullified.  The rest have to re-vote, and there is no one to vote for besides Lindsay, so Lindsay would have gone home.  So the question is why Lindsay just decided to take her chances with the 1 in 6 for Tori rather than considering playing her own shot.

 

 

[blackwing]

10 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Or - just thought of this - if Tori got the "safe" shot, there would be no more "safes" left?  At some point they added a 2nd "safe" didn't they?  Apparently I'm the one in the dark.

Hmm, it could be.  But it doesn't make sense to me that if multiple people took their shot, that there is only one "safe".  Jeffy says that they have a one in six shot of being safe.  He doesn't say "but that's only if nobody else takes their shot.  If someone takes their shot before you and happens to draw the safe scroll, then you have a 0% shot".  I would have to think that if someone takes their shot, the jar of scrolls is replaced with a new set.

I guess Lindsay just decided to look at her fate as a 5 in 6 chance of staying.

One other thing that I kind of found amusing... Tori said something like she prayed about the scroll and asked God to help her pick the right one, and she didn't get the safe one, so apparently God must not have wanted her to stay in the game, and that's why she was ok with it.  Ummm... ok.  Reminded me so much of Mark from Bopper and Mark.  The Kentucky coal miners from Amazing Race who kept talking about they needed to win because they were so PAWR (poor).  When Mark was eliminated during his second attempt, he cried "I guess God doesn't want me to win a million dollars".  Mmmhmmm.

[Hpmec]

I think production should have allowed the two teams to observe each other's tribal councils. The drama of the second would probably not have happened if they had observed the first. Rocksroy's departure had zip to do with his race, but the visual of him sitting there beside Chanelle with no context was what set off Drea and the discussion that followed. Not a fan of Tori, but ultimately she was booted at least in part because she was one of the three sitting there who aren't black. Too bad the game can't be played blindfolded. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Hpmec

[preeya]

15 hours ago, ChiefWiggum9-1-2 said:

6 of 41 Survivor champs have been African-American.  Or 14.6%. 
 
African-Americans make up 12-13% of the population of the United States. 
 

Just sayin’

And what is the percentage if you tally all non-whites with the African-American winners? Just askin'

Edited April 28, 2022 by preeya

[iMonrey]

Quote

Well, they do like to call Survivor a social experiment.  

Yeah and it's baloney. It's like saying Family Feud is a social experiment. Survivor is a reality show designed to make players jump through hoops and do tricks for the amusement of the audience. All these extra idols and advantages underline that objective.

There was a very real chance here nobody could have been voted out in the second group. Jonathan won immunity, Drea and Maryanne both played their idols, and Lindsday has some sort of advantage amulet as well. What if Tori played shot in the dark and won? What would they do then? Nobody goes home? I'm waiting for this very real scenario to eventually happen if they keep this up. Five people at that tribal council had seven advantages between them. That's ridiculous.

Quote

Jonathon just fell from my "I want him to win" to a dude who seems to be a good guy but who is kind of dick to women and cannot step back to see other peoples points of view. I don't think he is a misogynist and I don't think he is a racist. I do think he has some stereotypical view points that he needs to address. 

Agreed. I don't think he's a misogynist or a racist either. He's just a douche. The hair alone should have been a dead giveaway. 

[fishcakes]

14 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I actually think Maryann was wrong to play her idol, she didn't need to. She wasn't a target and she knew it. There was no way in hell anyone was voting for her after that conversation. It was a symbolic gesture on her part which I get based on how she was responding but was, really, not great game play. 

It's interesting because going into TC, both Drea and Maryann needed to play their idols for game reasons. Drea was the main target and Maryann was the bounceback. (And the fact that Tori, whom everyone had claimed to want out since the merge, wasn't the bounceback, certainly speaks to the perception that Drea and Maryann ended up with once they saw Rocksroy on the jury.) By the end of TC, arguably neither of them needed to play idols for game reasons -- we've seen before people say they're playing an idol so that no one will vote for them and then not play the idol -- but at that point they both needed to play them for symbolic reasons. If they say, "I'm playing my idol because I want to break the streak of all the Black players going out in a row" and then NOT played their idols, the reaction would have been that they "played the race card" 🙄 as a game strategy and that ThIs PrOvEs ThAt ThEy ArE tHe ReAl RaCiStS. Not playing idols would have hurt them in the game on a long-term but not short-term basis, but it also would have made the audience devalue the very valid points they were making about privilege and burdens and having to hide your true self and feelings so as not to make people like Jonathan, for example, feel like you're being "aggressive." Their choices were to either hide their emotions and play their idols so one of them doesn't go out for game reasons, or don't hide their emotions but play their idols so they don't get accused of being manipulative. I think they made the better choice, but I hate that they had to make it.

[blackwing]

5 minutes ago, preeya said:

And what is the percentage if you tally all non-whites with the African-American winners? Just askin'

There have been 9 minority winners.  4 black (Vecepia, Earl, Jeremy, Wendell), 2 Hispanic (Sandra, twice), 3 Asian (Yul, Natalie Anderson, Erika).  9 of 41 is 22%.  Meaning 78% of the winners have been white.  I believe current statistics say the US is about 60% white.  The US census doesn't consider Hispanic to be a race so a lot of Hispanics get lumped as white for census purposes.  But I believe the 60% is white (non-Hispanic).

[eskimo]

I think Jeff said,  last week or the week before, that they added 6 new scrolls, so there are 12 now, with 2 saying 'SAFE'.  Same 1 in 6 odds, but now SITD could save more than one player. It would have been the best thing ever if both Tori and Lindsay played SITD and received a 'safe' scroll.  Everybody would have been safe and maybe TPTB might finally realize how out of hand all these advantages have become.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by eskimo

[ProfCrash]

39 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

One thing I missed in all the kerfuffle - when it was down to Tori and Lyndsey, it was pretty much assumed that Tori would play her shot in the dark, and if she got lucky, Lyndsey would be the one to go.  Why couldn't Lyndsey also play her shot in the dark?  Was she somehow ineligible?  Or was it just so unlikely to help her (1 in 6 chance she would need it, then another 1 in 6 that it would save her) that she didn't want to burn it here?

Or - just thought of this - if Tori got the "safe" shot, there would be no more "safes" left?  At some point they added a 2nd "safe" didn't they?  Apparently I'm the one in the dark.

Lyndsey probably would have had to announce that she wanted to use her shot in the dark before Tori revealed hers. Realistically speaking, shots in the dark are played in the voting booth and before the votes are revealed. I don't think she could have decided to use her shot if Tori was safe.

2 minutes ago, eskimo said:

I think Jeff said,  last week or the week before, that they added 6 new scrolls,  so there are 12 now, with 2 saying 'SAFE'.  Same 1 in 6 odds, but now SITD could save more than one player.  It would have been the best thing ever if both Tori and Lindsay played SITD and receives a 'safe' scroll.  Everybody would have been safe and maybe TPTB might finally realize how out of hand all these advantages have become.  

I doubt those numbers applied to the smaller tribes of 5. I would guess, but have no evidence, that in the case of these tribal councils they went back to 1 in 6. There would have been no way to resolve tribal if both had drawn safe scrolls. Three people had immunity and two safe scrolls, there is no one left. That makes me think they had reverted to one safe scroll for the smaller tribals.

[fishcakes]

Tori got an advantage that no one else had, in that she got to play her shot in the dark after she knew all the votes were for her. Everyone else who's played it has had to do so before the votes were revealed. So had she ended up safe, I do think Lindsay should have had the same opportunity to play her SITD as well.

[eskimo]

8 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

 By the end of TC, arguably neither of them needed to play idols for game reasons -- we've seen before people say they're playing an idol so that no one will vote for them and then not play the idol 

One thing, aside from the symbolic gesture, that stopped either of them from saying they're using it, but keeping it instead was when Jeff thought it would be cool to suggest they don't go vote,  but rather do everything in the open.  That means Maryann and Drea had to play their idols first, before what was considered the vote, and Tori had to prove she was actually playing her SITD.  That gave everyone else the opportunity to act accordingly.  They should have went to vote like they normally do and let everyone vote based on what they think could happen.  I doubt anything would have changed, but it took the opportunity to bluff away from Maryann, Drea, and Tori.  

[cdnalor]

Doesn't playing SITD and getting the Safe scroll mean that no one goes home?  I think Lindsay was in no danger whatever the outcome.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Both women voted Chanelle out the previous tribal ...

I don't think Maryanne voted out Chanelle. She seemed surprised. She might have been blugging though. 

3 minutes ago, eskimo said:

That means Maryann and Drea had to play their idols first ...

Which Jonathan made sure to remind them of because he doesn't know that sometimes you can just shut the fuck up lol.

[ProfCrash]

10 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Doesn't playing SITD and getting the Safe scroll mean that no one goes home?  I think Lindsay was in no danger whatever the outcome.

If Tori had pulled a safe scroll, the Lyndsey goes home. Jeff said as much. 

[jsm1125]

10 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Doesn't playing SITD and getting the Safe scroll mean that no one goes home?  I think Lindsay was in no danger whatever the outcome.

But then that would leave Lindsay as the only non-immune person (Jonathan with the necklace, Drea and Maryanne with their hidden immunity idols, and Tori with the safe scroll).

[blackwing]

9 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Doesn't playing SITD and getting the Safe scroll mean that no one goes home?  I think Lindsay was in no danger whatever the outcome.

No, it just functions as immunity from the vote for that person.  It doesn't mean that nobody goes home.   Jeff very clearly said that if Tori's shot succeeded, then Lindsay would automatically go home, since she would have been the only other person eligible to go home.

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't think Maryanne voted out Chanelle. She seemed surprised. She might have been blugging though. 

Which Jonathan made sure to remind them of because he doesn't know that sometimes you can just shut the fuck up lol.

Maryanne didn't vote for Chanelle.  She was kept in the dark.  She, Chanelle and Omar voted for Romeo, and Romeo voted for HYE.  At least he didn't spell it "Hi". 

Drea however did vote for Chanelle.

[cdnalor]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

No, it just functions as immunity from the vote for that person.  It doesn't mean that nobody goes home.   Jeff very clearly said that if Tori's shot succeeded, then Lindsay would automatically go home, since she would have been the only other person eligible to go home

Is that what happened last season when someone (I don't remember who) got the Safe scroll?

[HurricaneVal]

I had totally forgotten about Rocksroy saying he hoped they'd (Romeo and Hai) freeze.  That's the kind of bitterness I like to see in a juror!  Unfortunately, after a couple weeks of satiation and leisure at Ponderosa, that bitterness usually kumbaya's right up to cooing kitten at final tribal council.  It's a pity we'll never get another "snake and rat" Sue-like speech, with gritted teeth, glaring eyes, stalking demeanor, bitterness oozing out of all pores like poison from a toad, ever again.  Makes me sad, really.  

[ProfCrash]

10 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Is that what happened last season when someone (I don't remember who) got the Safe scroll?

I don't think anyone got a safe scroll. I think the scroll was only pulled once last season and it was not safe.

[cdnalor]

2 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't think anyone got a safe scroll. I think the scroll was only pulled once last season and it was not safe.

I guess I imagined it, I'm not good at remembering details from past seasons.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

There was a very real chance here nobody could have been voted out in the second group. Jonathan won immunity, Drea and Maryanne both played their idols, and Lindsday has some sort of advantage amulet as well. What if Tori played shot in the dark and won? What would they do then? Nobody goes home? I'm waiting for this very real scenario to eventually happen if they keep this up. Five people at that tribal council had seven advantages between them. That's ridiculous.

Behind the scenes, Jeff is probably gleefully scribbling in his secret notebook about the facial expressions he's going to make and the speech he's going to give when, for the first time in Survivor history, he won't be able to Snuff! Anyone's! Torch!  He'll be completely gobsmacked, even though he's been setting up that very scenario.  I wonder how the people on the street will respond - this person on this street will be angry and exasperated.

And 7 advantages between 5 people?  Thank you, I've completely lost track - I just know  that Drea had 4 going into TC but I couldn't tell you exactly what they were.  I agree, at some point it becomes too ridiculous to really invest in the outcome.  It's not a social game as much as it is a chance visit to an island and a correct decision or two.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by laurakaye

[ProfCrash]

Drea: Individual immunity idol, amulet (currently an extra vote when joined with the other two amulets), extra vote, and steal advantage

Maryann: Individual immunity idol, extra vote

Mike: Individual Immunity

Lindsey: amulet

Hai: Amulet

The Amulets only work when combined so that makes them more challenging but grow in power as amulet numbers drop. Two amulets = steal a vote if they are combined, one amulet = individual immunity. 

So really 6 advantages, but I could be missing one. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by ProfCrash