S06.E11: Saturday in the Park

[kili]

Quote

I imagine that house, like other old houses, was built on a raised floor, so plumbing would be in the crawlspace underneath the floors. However, I don't know enuf about plumbing and when pipes would be put in the ceiling. I guess on TV shows.

Slab-on-grade is popular in Southern areas where one doesn't have to worry about frost. It was also thought they make houses more stable during earthquakes. Pipes in ceilings are not unusual in LA. 

I don't live in LA, but it is so common here that it seemed natural to me for there to be pipes in the ceiling.

Quote

Honestly, I think they would be at the same point or close to it regardless of the SF job.  Their issues started long ago when Toby lost the weight and changed from fun shlub to trim serious dude.

They always had issues.

Kate and Toby really started pulling apart when Jack was born. Kate pulled up her socks and decided to make the best life she could for her son. Toby had trouble adjusting and that made him feel guilty. He pulled away from Kate and Jack because he couldn't deal with Jack's disability and he didn't want to face that he couldn't deal. Should Kate have noticed and got him into therapy? Perhaps, but she was dealing with a lot on her own already. Toby is an adult and can put his own self into therapy as well. 

One of the ways that Toby dealt with the feeling of helplessness was throwing himself into getting fit. He couldn't control Jack's disability, but he could hyper-control himself. Getting fit is always a good idea, but it does create issues when you are using it as an avoidance mechanism. If you are going to the gym for two hours everyday so that you don't have to go home and face the fact that you have a disabled child, that's not mentally healthy for you, your child or your spouse. 

Kate was hurt by his weight loss not only because he succeeded where she failed, but he kept it a secret and he was spending long hours out of the house to do it. She's at home trying to learn how to parent a disabled child while he's spending several hours doing something for himself. Where was her two hours every day where she got to do nothing but something for herself? And why was he avoiding coming home?

Now, Toby is working very hard to support his family which is a good thing, but he's taken it too far again. When you need to schedule sex into the twenty minutes between weekend work-calls, you are probably working too hard. If he's buying a house in SF which is subject to a bidding war, then he's making a LOT of money. Maybe make slightly less money and put the phone down and be present.

Sure, Toby could be focusing on vices instead of virtues, but even virtues can be taken too far. 

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, kili said:

Kate has been the victim of domestic abuse in the past and they brothers didn't know about it until they arrived at the cabin. Kate didn't tell them, so they may be more overly reactive to an angry confrontation against their sister than the usual person. 

I cannot believe I overlooked that very important history. That does color the situation even more. 

[ProudMary]

4 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

As far as Toby turning down the job in LA, everyone is focused entirely on how much money he was going to make. What about benefits?  I know someone whose husband has FANTASTIC benefits - as in it was cheaper to add her to his insurance rather than her having insurance through her employer.  My last job the insurance was so expensive if I had a husband who needed insurance, I would be paying to work because of the cost (it was expensive enough for just me).  Maybe this job has other benefits that weren't mentioned. 

Also, comparing the health insurance packages offered by each employer is essential. There are a lot of garbage health insurance plans out there with high deductibles and high out-of-pocket maximums and many employers choose to go this route of offering lesser-quality health insurance, but a higher salary. High out-of-pocket healthcare costs can completely negate and even overtake a seemingly higher salary.

So, it's possible that the L.A. position offered an equivalent or even a higher base salary, but the full package was not nearly as good as what Toby had in S.F. This could also be a reason why Toby told his boss about the L.A. job, but not Kate. He could have used the L.A. job offer as an attempt to leverage a salary and/or benefits bump for his family.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

The writing has not been particularly clear, but I believe the job in SF is completely different than what Toby was doing, and the LA job would be more in line with his previous work experience.  And Toby is really liking the new job and the new responsibilities that come with it.  He is hesitant to take the LA job because of this.  He doesn't want to go back to a job where he is just a cog in the machine albeit a handsomely paid cog.  He is finding joy in his work where he did not previously.  Which is great if you are someone who derives your joy, fulfillment and self-worth through your career.  I am not knocking people who need to find joy in their work.  Hell, I am one of those people.  But, I am not married with kids.  It does suck for Toby to be finding this out about himself now instead of 10 or 15 years ago.  I do see both Toby and Kate's frustrations with their situation.  When they got married, Toby treated his job as a paycheck and found fulfillment outside of work.  Now his work is fulfilling him.  The real question is where does Kate and by extension the kids fit into this?  

Many people manage to find fulfillment in their work and have happy marriages and families. Toby very much wants Kate and the kids to move to SF, that's how they "fit into this." He could have done more research to show how Kate could find a classroom assistant job in SF, but Kate is an adult capable of doing her own job search. He's not asking her to give up a career that she's worked for many years to establish. It's a part-time, minimum wage job that she's had for less than a year.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kili said:

A lot of houses in Southern California are built on slabs and don't have basements. Back then, the pipes were run through the walls and ceilings so you don't have to break-up concrete if there is an issue.

Kate and Toby's house is a bungalow and I'm pretty sure it does not have a basement. Older houses like this tend to have coper pipes and water pipes are under pressure. Those pipes can develop pinhole leaks over time which can release a lot of water all at once. 

I would be stunned if the leak was from the roof because they get very little rain in LA and it wasn't raining that day (that ever present puddle at the park must be from some other leaking pipe). Plus, the last time Toby fixed it, he was futzing with the pipes and not cleaning out the gutters.

Kate has been the victim of domestic abuse in the past and they brothers didn't know about it until they arrived at the cabin. Kate didn't tell them, so they may be more overly reactive to an angry confrontation against their sister than the usual person. 

They know Toby and have no reason to think he’s abusing Kate. Kevin lives with them; he of all people would know. That history still doesn’t give them the right to act like interfering bullies, and if Kate had any sense of what it takes to make a marriage work, she would have told them to back off. Toby makes mistakes but you don’t let people treat your spouse the way her brothers were treating Toby because of an argument. 

[Jersey409]

Ugh! Just finished watching.  Proud that her three kids locked the babysitter in the bathroom?. Should have been embarrassed that you’re raising little assholes. Chatty Kathy is hardly an insult. Much much worse a caregiver/babysitter could have said or done. 
 

Wanted to slap Kate in the face when she called herself the only parent. Doubt her job is paying for mortgage, food and clothes for the family.  I felt bad for Toby getting bitched at and stressed while trying to place Jack down.  Princess Kate couldn’t move the mattress herself. Agreed with Toby also,  I wouldn’t go out of my way to teach a toddler how to open a door. If it weren’t for the kids I’d say a divorce is a godsend, breaking free from a lazy, miserable wife and her overbearing family.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Jersey409 said:

Just finished watching.  Proud that her three kids locked the babysitter in the bathroom?. Should have been embarrassed that you’re raising little assholes. Chatty Kathy is hardly an insult. Much much worse a caregiver/babysitter could have said or done. 

There have been times while watching the show that I’ve thought “Jack really messed these kids up” and it seemed like this episode the writers were like “hold up! Rebecca has equal blame here!”

Did the babysitter seem awful? Yes. But the kids were so far out of line.

[CountryGirl]

28 minutes ago, deaja said:

There have been times while watching the show that I’ve thought “Jack really messed these kids up” and it seemed like this episode the writers were like “hold up! Rebecca has equal blame here!”

Did the babysitter seem awful? Yes. But the kids were so far out of line.

The babysitter was terrible but the kids weren't the sweet, darling angels Rebecca wanted to make them out to be. I'm sure Rebecca would not have been so admiring had it been she or Jack trapped in the bathroom.

[mostlylurking]

7 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

When she takes the kids to the park, she's going to be around nannies.  That is the reality of 21st century parenting.  Stay at home parents are a dying breed.  Two income households are the norm. 

So judging by how well Little Jack is doing I’d say Kate is doing an awesome job being a mom.  But I don’t think Kate realizes that the reason she gets to do all these amazing things with her kids is because Toby has a job that can support them all.  I’m a stay at home mom, and I’m very thankful for that.  I left a 20 year career to stay home with my little.  I have people tell me all the time “wow, now imagine how hard it would be if you had to do everything you do now AND had to work outside the home”. My answer is always the same.  If I was working outside the home, I wouldn’t do half the shit I do now.  Because it would be impossible.  I wouldn’t be able to put so much one on one time in with my kid, she would be with a nanny or in daycare all day.  That’s not a judgement, it’s reality.  This is why I feel Kate is unreasonable and unrealistic.  Life would change drastically for her if Toby wasn’t making the salary he’s making right now.  I don’t think she gets that.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, kili said:

Slab-on-grade is popular in Southern areas where one doesn't have to worry about frost. It was also thought they make houses more stable during earthquakes. Pipes in ceilings are not unusual in LA. 

I don't live in LA, but it is so common here that it seemed natural to me for there to be pipes in the ceiling.

I made my assumptions from growing up in Southern California. Our house was built in the 50's and had a crawlspace. It looks like Kate & Toby's house is even older, but who knows if it's built on a concrete foundation or not. Doesn't really matter. Even if that actual house doesn't have plumbing in the ceiling, the plot required it.

[JKL845]

If the show was going to be realistic about this divorce Kate would have to downsize and rarely have time with the kids. They would have to sell the LA home, split the proceeds (maybe not much since they haven't been there long). Toby would not be able to get as nice of a place in SF as he was looking at. Kate would have to find a full time job that she might not like as long as it pays well. Neither one would have much time with the kids. They would be with caregivers the most. Kate would basically feed them dinner and get them to bed and have every other weekend with them (same for Toby). So the kids will be in two new places instead of one and Toby would have them half of the time without Kate around (since Kate is concerned that Toby isn't as safe as she is, she would be even more stressed out over them being alone with him half of the time). Makes more sense for them to find a good marriage counselor to at least help them until the kids are in school full time if not longer. 

[CrystalBlue]

8 hours ago, PepSinger said:

 

Honestly? This could work out in several ways. I used to deal with insurance for services that the company rendered to children. Sometimes children would be on BOTH parents’ policies, and there are certain rules, which I won’t go into here, that determines which policy would be billed first and which policy would be billed second. Other times, they would just be on one parent’s policy. For Toby and Kate, depending upon the divorce and custody settlement, they could both be required to have both kids on both of their insurance policies, or they could come to an agreement that they stay on Toby’s. It all depends.

My question was:  Where in the hell does Kate think she's getting insurance coverage NOW?  I am talking about this episode of "Saturday in the Park."  What happens later should be under Spoilers and Speculations AFTER she divorces Toby and what happens after gets married to Philip.

[mansonlamps]

11 minutes ago, JKL845 said:

If the show was going to be realistic about this divorce Kate would have to downsize and rarely have time with the kids. They would have to sell the LA home, split the proceeds (maybe not much since they haven't been there long). Toby would not be able to get as nice of a place in SF as he was looking at. Kate would have to find a full time job that she might not like as long as it pays well. Neither one would have much time with the kids. They would be with caregivers the most. Kate would basically feed them dinner and get them to bed and have every other weekend with them (same for Toby). So the kids will be in two new places instead of one and Toby would have them half of the time without Kate around (since Kate is concerned that Toby isn't as safe as she is, she would be even more stressed out over them being alone with him half of the time). Makes more sense for them to find a good marriage counselor to at least help them until the kids are in school full time if not longer. 

Everyone keeps assuming Kevin will foot the bill for everything,  but the reality is he has children of his own and we know he gets married.  His new wife might not be so keen on their money being freely given to Kate, especially if they have additional children of their own. 

[chocolatine]

12 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

Everyone keeps assuming Kevin will foot the bill for everything,  but the reality is he has children of his own and we know he gets married.  His new wife might not be so keen on their money being freely given to Kate, especially if they have additional children of their own. 

I think people are assuming because Kevin offered to do exactly that last season. But, unless Kevin continues to be a successful actor and/or his construction business takes off, there's no guarantee that he will keep making enough money to support his own family as well as Kate's. Unless Kevin already has enough wealth that he can live off the passive income that the principal generates, he's not truly independently wealthy. And even if he does already have that, things can always go sideways, e.g. stock market crashes, Ponzi schemes, etc. So, even if Kevin wants to support Kate and her kids forever, there's no guarantee that he'll be able to.

[CrystalBlue]

7 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I think people are assuming because Kevin offered to do exactly that last season. But, unless Kevin continues to be a successful actor and/or his construction business takes off, there's no guarantee that he will keep making enough money to support his own family as well as Kate's. Unless Kevin already has enough wealth that he can live off the passive income that the principal generates, he's not truly independently wealthy. And even if he does already have that, things can always go sideways, e.g. stock market crashes, Ponzi schemes, etc. So, even if Kevin wants to support Kate and her kids forever, there's no guarantee that he'll be able to.

Why anyone would want or allow their sibling to support them and their family is beyond me.

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, CrystalBlue said:

Why anyone would want or allow their sibling to support them and their family is beyond me.

Only someone like Kate who has been raised as if she's incapable of doing things for herself and her brothers and father are supposed to take care of her. Toby rightfully balked at Kevin's offer.

[Madding crowd]

They have not showed Kate asking Kevin to support her and the kids. If they divorce they will live on child support from Toby and whatever Kate makes. People on TV never have houses or lives that correspond to real life so I don’t expect them to go into details on anyone’s finances especially being the last season.

[Pattycake2]

23 hours ago, Cosmocrush said:

I don't know about that but I do know that one day, out of the clear blue sky (no previous problems) water started gushing out the ceiling light fixture in my kitchen!  I do have a second floor but the room above has NO water pipes; apparently it "traveled from the bathroom on the other side.   Anyway it was a big mess for about two weeks and I did get a new bathroom, lol. 

 

 

That’s classic.  Water from above will find the easiest path downward.  A light fixture has already created a pathway/hole downward.  I once lived in an apartment where the radiator leaked and the wooden tiles began popping off 30 feet away.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Why anyone would want or allow their sibling to support them and their family is beyond me.

Because Pearson means codependency apparently

[Ohmo]

11 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I can understand that and that Kate has a skewed view of the big picture financially, but she still was entitled to hear the full details from Toby, preferably proactively rather than being found out.

But what is incentivizing him to want to do that for her?  Isn't he entitled for her to give SF serious consideration, which she has not done.  It would be different if she had really thought about life in San Francisco.  Maybe investigated some schools for Jack or even interviewed for a few jobs or looked at a few houses, and THEN said to Toby.  I didn't like this, this, this about San Francisco, Toby, and here's why.  The only thing that she has said is that she doesn't want to, and then she mentions Rebecca (which Toby had already considered because there was a guesthouse.)

I would be more likely to agree with you if Kate were likely to take the information about LA and critically weigh it with the information about SF.  However, I have no confidence that she would do that because she has refused to see SF as a possible option for the family.  People are giving Toby a difficult time for not presenting information in some sort of "correct" way for Kate, but she's apparently allowed to just chant "LALALALA" until she's blue in the face.

What is incentivizing Toby to talk to her about an LA job when he knows there's a HIGH probability that she's won't say "OK Toby, I'm going to think about this LA job, but I'm also going to really think about SF as well"? Instead, it's more likely that she would take whatever he told her and guilt him into taking the job in LA.

It's interesting that you used the phrasing that she's "entitled to" something, when I think she's just plain "entitled." 

People want Toby to treat Kate as an equal, but the only thing that Kate wants is what Kate wants "I don't want to leave LA. I miss the old Toby...I want to be considered for Sheila's job.  I, I, I, me, me, me.

Toby has thought about his own happiness too, but he has also thought about Jack, Kate, and even Kate's mother and husband.  Kate has not even stopped to consider what Toby might be giving up by going back to LA, what opportunities that might be for Jack that might not be in LA.  She has spent precious little time looking at anything beyond her own Kate-centered world.

And something else...I think one reason that she's so focused on Jack is because it focuses attention on her.  I taught Jack this song.  I am raising a child with a disability.  Look at how terrific I am!  Some parents of kids with disabilities are like that.  That is an actual thing.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Ohmo

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

They know Toby and have no reason to think he’s abusing Kate. Kevin lives with them; he of all people would know. That history still doesn’t give them the right to act like interfering bullies, and if Kate had any sense of what it takes to make a marriage work, she would have told them to back off. Toby makes mistakes but you don’t let people treat your spouse the way her brothers were treating Toby because of an argument. 

Well said. 

 

6 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

And something else...I think one reason that she's so focused on Jack is because it focuses attention on her.  I taught Jack this song.  I am raising a child with a disability.  Look at how terrific I am!  Some parents of kids with disabilities are like that.  That is an actual thing.

4 hours ago, Jersey409 said:

Ugh! Just finished watching.  Proud that her three kids locked the babysitter in the bathroom?. Should have been embarrassed that you’re raising little assholes. Chatty Kathy is hardly an insult. Much much worse a caregiver/babysitter could have said or done. 
 

Wanted to slap Kate in the face when she called herself the only parent. Doubt her job is paying for mortgage, food and clothes for the family.  I felt bad for Toby getting bitched at and stressed while trying to place Jack down.  Princess Kate couldn’t move the mattress herself. Agreed with Toby also,  I wouldn’t go out of my way to teach a toddler how to open a door. If it weren’t for the kids I’d say a divorce is a godsend, breaking free from a lazy, miserable wife and her overbearing family.

 

3 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

So judging by how well Little Jack is doing I’d say Kate is doing an awesome job being a mom.  But I don’t think Kate realizes that the reason she gets to do all these amazing things with her kids is because Toby has a job that can support them all.  I’m a stay at home mom, and I’m very thankful for that.  I left a 20 year career to stay home with my little.  I have people tell me all the time “wow, now imagine how hard it would be if you had to do everything you do now AND had to work outside the home”. My answer is always the same.  If I was working outside the home, I wouldn’t do half the shit I do now.  Because it would be impossible.  I wouldn’t be able to put so much one on one time in with my kid, she would be with a nanny or in daycare all day.  That’s not a judgement, it’s reality.  This is why I feel Kate is unreasonable and unrealistic.  Life would change drastically for her if Toby wasn’t making the salary he’s making right now.  I don’t think she gets that.

I think Kate loves her children. However, raising Jack to be independent is the one thing in life she has been good at. People look at her like she is a supermom. It is her first real ego boost. The love of teaching blind children is an extension of that.

We (including me) were insanely impressed at the adorable child playing Jack. We also see that he is an amazing success in the future. In this world, Kate has no mobility issues and can handle 2 active children all on her own. I do not know how realistic it is for someone of her size but it is true in the show's universe. She has her mother, brother, and school constantly praising her. Her best friend, Madison, dialogue with her consists of constantly gushing over how amazing she is.

Kate can easily get a similar job in SF, particularly now that she has real-world experience. Toby has also made arrangements for her mother to come to stay with them. However, it will not be her cozy corner and she is not used to people not indulging her whims. Jack never gave her boundaries and Rebecca was too busy trying to be her friend to really ever discipline her for anything.

 

[mansonlamps]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I think people are assuming because Kevin offered to do exactly that last season. But, unless Kevin continues to be a successful actor and/or his construction business takes off, there's no guarantee that he will keep making enough money to support his own family as well as Kate's. Unless Kevin already has enough wealth that he can live off the passive income that the principal generates, he's not truly independently wealthy. And even if he does already have that, things can always go sideways, e.g. stock market crashes, Ponzi schemes, etc. So, even if Kevin wants to support Kate and her kids forever, there's no guarantee that he'll be able to.

Even if he is able to, this goes back to the discussion of putting the family you created ahead of the family you were born into.   It might work out if you're single and childless, but not too many spouses would find this arrangement acceptable and heartwarming when their own families are at stake.

[CountryGirl]

34 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

But what is incentivizing him to want to do that for her?  Isn't he entitled for her to give SF serious consideration, which she has not done.  It would be different if she had really thought about life in San Francisco.  Maybe investigated some schools for Jack or even interviewed for a few jobs or looked at a few houses, and THEN said to Toby.  I didn't like this, this, this about San Francisco, Toby, and here's why.  The only thing that she has said is that she doesn't want to, and then she mentions Rebecca (which Toby had already considered because there was a guesthouse.)

I would be more likely to agree with you if Kate were likely to take the information about LA and critically weigh it with the information about SF.  However, I have no confidence that she would do that because she has refused to see SF as a possible option for the family.  People are giving Toby a difficult time for not presenting information in some sort of "correct" way for Kate, but she's apparently allowed to just chant "LALALALA" until she's blue in the face.

What is incentivizing Toby to talk to her about an LA job when he knows there's a HIGH probability that she's won't say "OK Toby, I'm going to think about this LA job, but I'm also going to really think about SF as well"? Instead, it's more likely that she would take whatever he told her and guilt him into taking the job in LA.

It's interesting that you used the phrasing that she's "entitled to" something, when I think she's just plain "entitled." 

People want Toby to treat Kate as an equal, but the only thing that Kate wants is what Kate wants "I don't want to leave LA. I miss the old Toby...I want to be considered for Sheila's job.  I, I, I, me, me, me.

Toby has thought about his own happiness too, but he has also thought about Jack, Kate, and even Kate's mother and husband.  Kate has not even stopped to consider what Toby might be giving up by going back to LA, what opportunities that might be for Jack that might not be in LA.  She has spent precious little time looking at anything beyond her own Kate-centered world.

And something else...I think one reason that she's so focused on Jack is because it focuses attention on her.  I taught Jack this song.  I am raising a child with a disability.  Look at how terrific I am!  Some parents of kids with disabilities are like that.  That is an actual thing.

I have already stated that if the LA job offer was truly a “joke,” then it wouldn’t be fair for Kate to expect Toby to take it. But I still stand by her being entitled, as his spouse, to be informed of any LA job offers per their agreement that he would look for work in LA - not automatically accept the first job that came along. That Kate is “difficult,” “entitled,” a “bitch,” the “worst” or whatever labels rightfully or wrongfully are placed upon her doesn’t negate that agreement. AFAIA, there was no agreement for her and the kids to move to SF after a few months with Toby having zero luck finding anything similar to his current set-up. But even setting aside their agreement, why should Kate’s actions dictate Toby’s? That becomes a very tit for tat situation where sure, Toby can do X, Y, and Z and claim it’s because Kate did A, B, and C first, and she could claim similarly. Which is honestly childish and blame-shifting on both of their parts.  

The bottom line is that CAN they continue to respond this way? Of course. But it’s no way to sustain a healthy relationship. If Kate is truly the bane of Toby’s existence as had been posited many times, then it should be in Toby’s best interest that they part ways. 

As sad as it will be for them to divorce, especially when there are two children involved, I’m honestly ready to move on from this arc. 

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

As sad as it will be for them to divorce, especially when there are two children involved, I’m honestly ready to move on from this arc. 

On that we can agree.  Although, it seems IDK anticlimactic that she marries Philip at this point.  Besides the one flash forward that involves her second wedding, we don't have that much time to know him...a handful of episodes maybe?

And it wouldn't shock me if that marriage isn't successful either.

[Crs97]

I hope we find out Toby was also able to move on.

[Rootbeer]

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

They have not showed Kate asking Kevin to support her and the kids. If they divorce they will live on child support from Toby and whatever Kate makes. People on TV never have houses or lives that correspond to real life so I don’t expect them to go into details on anyone’s finances especially being the last season.

No, but they have shown Kate living with her mom and working as a waitress for a decade and then moving out to California to work for her brother. As far as I can tell, that is the bulk of her work experience in over 20 years and she has spent her entire adult life dependent on family members to pay the bills..  She also showed no concern about Kevin supporting them when Toby was out of work.  I think it is pretty rare to find an otherwise able-bodied adult with this kind of history and it leads me to believe that Kate doesn't see herself as needing to take financial responsibility for her own life or her children's lives.

Someone mentioned Kate downsizing her housing and finding a better paying job.  What could she find with her work history?  What are her qualifications and experience that would make her able to get anything other than a low paying, entry level job?  Even if she didn't have her children, Kate would be hard pressed to support herself without assistance in LA.

Quote

 But I still stand by her being entitled, as his spouse, to be informed of any LA job offers per their agreement that he would look for work in LA -

Then, by the same token, Toby, as her spouse, is entitled to present his case for moving to SF and have her consider it with an open mind.  That didn't happen either.  Couples plan their future all the time, and sometimes those plans need to be revised.  Toby is allowed to have changed his mind about working in LA and Kate, as his wife, should spend a couple minutes considering his POV.  They made a verbal agreement, they didn't sign the Treaty of Versailles.  Married couples change course all the time.  I personally don't know anyone who has wound up exactly where they planned to be, for better or worse.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Rootbeer

[pennben]

59 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Then, by the same token, Toby, as her spouse, is entitled to present his case for moving to SF and have her consider it with an open mind.  That didn't happen either

Hahahahahaha! He presented his case when he was busted for not presenting it when he should have!  He made her think it was all about money but wouldn’t reveal the salary. He finally admitted it wasn’t about the money but about him wanting to keep his current job because it was important to him. 
There is nothing wrong with him wanting to keep the job for that reason. There is everything wrong with how he went about making it ‘the only choice’ and getting what he wanted without being honest and communicating with his spouse until forced to.
Truly, the only person preventing and open, honest conversation without hackles up on this topic was Toby himself trying to avoid said conversation. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by pennben

[MBayGal]

7 hours ago, JKL845 said:

If the show was going to be realistic about this divorce Kate would have to downsize and rarely have time with the kids

In TIU land, PMJ will be revealed to be fabulously rich, only working at the school because he is a saint, and will give Kate and the children a life of luxury.  

[chocolatine]

Regarding what Kate is entitled to, it's either being financially supported by her husband, or having equal say in his career decisions. She can't have it both ways. If she wants to be a mostly stay-at-home mother with a personally fulfilling part-time job that doesn't bring in real money, she has to be flexible about other things such as location and Toby's workload/schedule. Life is all about priorities and tradeoffs, and yes, that also applies to people who were born with the last name Pearson.

[himela]

I rewatched the scene from last season when Toby tells Kate he got a job offer in SF. He says "we can't go on much longer living on your salary" and she says, "I mean, we are ok, we are not saving but we are ok".

This tells me that if they were ok when Toby was not working, then if a) Kate gets the promotion at her job and b)Toby got that LA job offer with less salary, they would do just fine.

[chocolatine]

15 minutes ago, himela said:

I rewatched the scene from last season when Toby tells Kate he got a job offer in SF. He says "we can't go on much longer living on your salary" and she says, "I mean, we are ok, we are not saving but we are ok".

This tells me that if they were ok when Toby was not working, then if a) Kate gets the promotion at her job and b)Toby got that LA job offer with less salary, they would do just fine.

It's impossible that they were getting by on Kate's part-time minimum wage salary alone. If she's working 10-15 hours a week at $15 per hour, that's $150-$225 a week before taxes. That's barely enough for groceries. They were "ok" for the time being because of Toby's unemployment benefits (which included an additional $300/week because of COVID), and the severance package he got when he was laid off, but both of those things were about to run out. Even when Toby wasn't working, he was contributing more money than Kate (not to mention continued insurance coverage through COBRA).

Edited April 9, 2022 by chocolatine

[himela]

Here is the video for anyone interested.

I still think that they could manage but Toby prefers being valued at work than have a family.

I wonder what people would say if it was a woman who preferred being valued at work than keeping her family. I think we wouldn't be that accepting of her..

[chocolatine]

4 minutes ago, himela said:

Here is the video for anyone interested.

I still think that they could manage but Toby prefers being valued at work than have a family.

I wonder what people would say if it was a woman who preferred being valued at work than keeping her family. I think we wouldn't be that accepting of her..

Toby has never said that being valued at work was more important to him than having a family. These two things are not mutually exclusive and many people manage to have both.

[pennben]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

She can't have it both ways. If she wants to be a mostly stay-at-home mother with a personally fulfilling part-time job that doesn't bring in real money, she has to be flexible about other things such as location and Toby's workload/schedule

I believe she applied for a full time position recently. Of course it’s not as lucrative as Toby’s (different conversation), but once again, let’s not attribute sins to her that she hasn’t committed. 

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, pennben said:

I believe she applied for a full time position recently. Of course it’s not as lucrative as Toby’s (different conversation), but once again, let’s not attribute sins to her that she hasn’t committed. 

"Applied" being the operative word. She had never actually worked full-time during their marriage.  

[pennben]

Of course, applied but not gotten yet. Feels like that does provide evidence of her not just wanting to be a mostly SAHM with a hobby job as suggested. 
 

Edited April 9, 2022 by pennben

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, pennben said:

Of course, applied but not gotten yet. Feels like that does provide evidence of her just wanting to be a mostly SAHM with a hobby job as suggested. 

But that's a very recent development. For the six years that Toby had known her until a few weeks prior, she had never expressed the desire or made the effort to work full-time, even before they got married or had kids.

If Kate had just wanted to work full-time for its own sake, she could have started a job search in San Francisco (and I'm sure Toby would have been more than happy to leverage his local network to help her find opportunities). She decided to apply for a full-time job in LA so that she'd have another reason not to move, but that's not the same as having had a full-time job all along.

[pennben]

Who knows what Toby would do! Not relevant. Just a gentle fact check on where the show actually showed her mind to be in the timeline of the big egg/argument. Obviously different than what they showed where she was in the in the past. That’s all. 

[kili]

Quote

Toby has never said that being valued at work was more important to him than having a family. 

He's come pretty close. This is what he said in the finale: "I want to go back to work, Kate. I need to... emotionally, mentally. Staying at home is just... All right, I love our children, but..."

If Kate won the lottery and money was no longer a concern, Toby still wouldn't want to be a SAHD. He needs to work. This job gives him such positive feedback, that he's working all the time. He doesn't want the LA job because he loves the positive feedback of his current job. 

That's great that he loves his job. Everybody should love their jobs. He should strive for a better work/life balance, though. Kate also loves her job and gets lots of positive feedback too.  

One of them has to give up their currently happy position for the other or continue to live apart.  Unfortunately, as the couple has grown apart, neither wants to sacrifice their happiness for a marriage that is already circling the drain. 

I think that this marriage has passed the tipping point. If either quits their dream job to move to the other location, the marriage is still likely to fail because the underlying issues will still be there.  So, they can keep their dream jobs and living close to their support systems, but their marriage will be doomed OR one of them can give up their dream job, move to a different city, hold down the homefront while their spouse works all the time and still have the marriage fail. 

 

[Jersey409]

7 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I hope we find out Toby was also able to move on.

Yes, I want to see Toby have a nice life. I feel very bad that his wife is breaking up the family.  It is complete ridiculous/bs  if  they’re giving Kate a happy ending with that British guy-who by the way, seems way less sensitive than Toby.

[Jersey409]

Anyone else also not like rebecca’s behavior at the restaurant (before getting drunk) It  just seemed exaggerated and out of character.  Triplets would be damn hard and I’d be celebrating to get out too,  but she kinda made herself look like a lush bimbo saying she wants every alcoholic drink on the menu 😹

14 hours ago, deaja said:

There have been times while watching the show that I’ve thought “Jack really messed these kids up” and it seemed like this episode the writers were like “hold up! Rebecca has equal blame here!”

Did the babysitter seem awful? Yes. But the kids were so far out of line.

Way out of line and since when did chatty Kathy become an insult.

[Crs97]

She was basically telling Kate to shut up, which is rude, but it was also their bedtime.  It was such a terribly contrived setup.  Apparently the boys only know how to step in and “protect” Kate when it is wholly unwarranted.

[Jersey409]

13 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

She was basically telling Kate to shut up, which is rude, but it was also their bedtime.  It was such a terribly contrived setup.  Apparently the boys only know how to step in and “protect” Kate when it is wholly unwarranted.

Wholeheartedly agree. Terrible setup. If they wanted to show the big three defending Kate when they were little they could have used a different scenario of they being at school and Kate getting picked on by a bully, instead of this plot of an apathetic teen sitter.   Very unwarranted and inappropriate how they stepped in during the argument. She instigated the fight and she was being the nasty cow.  If anything , this episode made me like Toby all the more.

[peeayebee]

10 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

They made a verbal agreement, they didn't sign the Treaty of Versailles.

Next week on This Is Us, "Katoby In Paris."

 

2 hours ago, Jersey409 said:

Anyone else also not like rebecca’s behavior at the restaurant (before getting drunk) It  just seemed exaggerated and out of character.  Triplets would be damn hard and I’d be celebrating to get out too,  but she kinda made herself look like a lush bimbo saying she wants every alcoholic drink on the menu 

It was really ridiculous. That whole flashback was poorly conceived. Maybe one of the writers let his 10-yr old do it.

[CountryGirl]

10 hours ago, Ohmo said:

On that we can agree.  Although, it seems IDK anticlimactic that she marries Philip at this point.  Besides the one flash forward that involves her second wedding, we don't have that much time to know him...a handful of episodes maybe?

And it wouldn't shock me if that marriage isn't successful either.

It will seem quite rushed from an episode perspective even if it’s 5 years in the future til Kate’s wedding. 

Spoiler

Supposedly, the very next episode after next week’s Katoby episode is the one with the Kate/Philip wedding. Which is decidedly quick.

Time will tell if this marriage lasts. 

10 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I hope we find out Toby was also able to move on.

I hope he is able to move on and find happiness, whatever that looks like to him, in the future. 

[CountryGirl]

10 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Then, by the same token, Toby, as her spouse, is entitled to present his case for moving to SF and have her consider it with an open mind.  That didn't happen either.  Couples plan their future all the time, and sometimes those plans need to be revised.  Toby is allowed to have changed his mind about working in LA and Kate, as his wife, should spend a couple minutes considering his POV.  They made a verbal agreement, they didn't sign the Treaty of Versailles.  Married couples change course all the time.  I personally don't know anyone who has wound up exactly where they planned to be, for better or worse.

Yes, he is entitled but that's not what happened as several of us have pointed out throughout the thread. Unless "presenting one's case" is an "ultimatum." YMMV, but that's not making any sort of case whatsoever IMO. Ultimatums almost never work, for that reason.

It was also never suggested that that plans could not change (much less their "plan" was an iron-clad treaty LOL), so long as they had a discussion. I literally said that in the post you quoted that if the LA offer was truly a joke that it would have been wrong for Kate to expect him to take it. Of course, the plan can evolve as can the relationship, but the main point is that Toby never, in fact, made his case. He made an ultimatum, Kate responded not all that earth-shatteringly in kind. And we are where we are with them currently. 

Even with the initial SF job offer, Toby shared the exciting news that he finally has an offer and Kate was so excited with her "BABE! SEE? The world comes to Toby Damon." And then you see him just slide in there that it will have him in SF 3 days/week once that office reopens (I'm guessing it was closed due to covid although not specifically said, so could have been for other reasons - doesn't really matter). As someone who has been involved in recruiting for well over a decade, I have a heard time believing that TPTB slid that in the offer letter and it was the first time Toby heard about it (that's generally discussed, at minimum, in the interview, if not in the posting itself). Common sense tells you that you don't spring surprises on someone in an offer letter and having him working in SF for part of the week when they know he lives in LA (it would be on his resume) would be a surprise for certain.

Kate goes from happiness for her husband to hearing that he'll be away for 3 days/week in a completely different city that is a plane ride away and he's immediately saying how he wants and needs to take the job (and he's not wrong to be excited and happy after months of nothing), but the way he goes about it, just slipping in that pesky detail about it being in SF for almost half of every week and Kate specifically saying "give me a minute to process" and he can't understand what her problem is. But this is what Toby does. Lays it out there and it's kind of take it or leave it and Kate did take the circumstances as she agreed that he should take the job. Things might have gone better had Toby prepared her for the possibility that it could mean him being in SF from the moment he interviewed, instead of springing it on her. It's another one of those things we'll never know because it did not play out that way on screen.

And of course married couples change course who knows how many times over their relationship but generally speaking, they don't do that by making ultimatums and not sharing pertinent details or making unilateral decisions. 

[izabella]

44 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Time will tell if this marriage lasts. 

Oh!  Oh!  Let me look into my crystal ball....nope, not gonna last.

Kate is a miserable person and has been her entire life.  The only true joy she's ever shown us is when eating ice cream with her father.  She is co-dependent with Kevin, and that will never change.  Maybe Phillip, having a large ego of his own, will be able to laugh about Kevate's relationship for a while, whereas Toby's ego was crushed by it, but no man wants to be married to a BIL - who lives in his house! - as well as his wife.  And for sure, no one wants the ghost of long-dead Daddy Jack haunting their marriage as the measuring stick for "great husband."

Edited April 9, 2022 by izabella

[Trillian]

5 hours ago, kili said:

He's come pretty close. This is what he said in the finale: "I want to go back to work, Kate. I need to... emotionally, mentally. Staying at home is just... All right, I love our children, but..."

Respectfully, that is not at all the same as saying one values work over family. That is saying that one is not cut out to stay home with the kids, however much one loves them.  Not everyone finds fulfilment staying home with young children - I sure didn’t and it doesn’t mean my family was less important than my work.  

In Toby’s case, there was already one parent who was at home most of the time, so the whole “abandoning your kids to a nanny or daycare” debate (baloney, IMO) doesn’t even come up.  

[CountryGirl]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Regarding what Kate is entitled to, it's either being financially supported by her husband, or having equal say in his career decisions. She can't have it both ways. If she wants to be a mostly stay-at-home mother with a personally fulfilling part-time job that doesn't bring in real money, she has to be flexible about other things such as location and Toby's workload/schedule. Life is all about priorities and tradeoffs, and yes, that also applies to people who were born with the last name Pearson.

My best friend is a SAHM and she would laugh herself silly if someone suggested she's not an equal partner in her marriage and doesn't have equal say in all areas, including her husband's career decisions. Because her husband's career decisions don't just impact him, but their entire family.  Him being the primary breadwinner doesn't mean he gets to call all the shots. She has been watching the series very closely, especially because she can relate to the long-distance aspect. She and her husband did that for about 3 years when their kids, now in high school, were in middle school. Her husband worked several hours away from home during the week and came home on the weekends. Her husband initially pressed for them to move, and laid out the reasons why and she countered with all the reasons for them not to move. But the difference is that they both laid out their cases, no ultimatums were made and, in the end, they stayed and within 3 years, he had another job, a better job, where he could work in their original city. Was it hard on them? Absolutely, but it was the right move for them and their family and where because they fully discussed it, any initial resentment on either part ebbed away. They are about to celebrate their 26th wedding anniversary so, for me, they are a real life example of how communication and compromise are key to a successful relationship. 

Toby making the lion's share of money doesn't entitle him to having the final say in decisions that will impact his family's life. Yes, of course, money is clearly necessary for one to live, but things can be worked out. Like the time I worked 2 jobs so my husband, who had lost his, could take his time finding something that appealed to him and we weren't strapped for cash. Or the job I have now. While I like it and some days even love it, it's not my dream job, but the paycheck and benefits are quite nice (including being home-based) and my salary offsets his so that he can do something he really truly loves. I am a work to live vs live to work and while fulfillment at one's work is nice and I do have that some of the time, I care much more about my life outside of work and appreciate that my salary helps me to make the most of that time. 

Toby wanting to be happy and fulfilled in his career isn't wrong and I have said so many times, but it doesn't mean to the exclusion of all else. It would be fine if he was single, but he isn't. He has other considerations beyond his own feelings and desires. This is true for Kate as well. If neither is willing to compromise, then he and Kate should divorce because living this way is only going to continue to breed resentment, which has now spilled over into contempt, and their children deserve better than to be caught in the crossfire.

[CountryGirl]

7 hours ago, pennben said:

I believe she applied for a full time position recently. Of course it’s not as lucrative as Toby’s (different conversation), but once again, let’s not attribute sins to her that she hasn’t committed. 

Yes, she has. Which is apparently a ding on Kate. Well, we don't even know if she got the position, for one, and two, she owned up to that right away unlike her husband. If it is not wrong for Toby to want to be fulfilled and happy (which I agree, it is not), why is Kate not viewed with the same lens? That she has only applied for a full-time position only recently while Toby has a much longer job history is irrelevant. She finally feels confidence in herself enough to even go for such a position and that's being denigrated for reasons that I cannot understand. It's assumed that the pay won't be as much as Toby's. Likely not, but we do not know that for certain, but the pay doesn't have to be as much or more. It can be a combination of salaries as it often is in most two-working-outside-of-the-home families and that can ensure financial needs are met.