S02.E05: Fly Me to the Moon

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Picard discovers an important person from his past may be integral to the divergence in the timeline. Q continues his manipulation of the timeline, taking an interest in Dr. Adam Soong. Seven and Raffi attempt a daring rescue of Rios, while Jurati faces the consequences of her deal with the Borg Queen.

Dropping Thursday, March 31, 2022.

[Stardancer Supreme]

Baby...

The Supervisor used the time old trick of taking the face of someone Picard would trust.  And she has no knowledge of Q? Interesting.

Now I want to know what Q's game is. His powers aren't working properly and now he has to resort to physical manipulation to eff things up? Tell me more.

Poor Raffi. It was quite clever the way Evan Evagora is kept in play by having Raffi see Elnor in other people's faces.

Dr. Adam Soong had a daughter. Now we have the precursor to Soji/Dahj.

We have witnessed the birth of Borg Queen Agnes. This fin to be goooood.

[NeenerNeener]

I was totally expecting Jurati to be assimilated, and I wasn't surprised at the ending. 

So Q is tweaking more than one thing in that timeline. No bueno.

[dwmarch]

Of all the Terminator movies they could have borrowed from for the Borg Queen they went with Genisys?

The countryside police in France are sure lazy. They get a frantic phone call about a woman being attacked and they send one cop to investigate.

I guess it was compressed for time but why did Soong put his daughter out in the sun one second after giving her that injection? It should take a little longer, no?

So based on something Q said, is this season all about torturing Picard for never getting married? Q says something about love but Picard loves lots of stuff. He loves tea, Earl Grey, hot. He loves his crew. Try to tell me he doesn't love his dog. He just doesn't have himself a wife at the moment but Q already knows of a timeline where Picard married Beverly Crusher. So it isn't like the man lacks for love, he just hasn't pursued one particular kind late in life. Is this what Q's problem is? We have speculated that the Borg Queen is Q's mother but maybe the problem is actually that Picard is Q's father. I know that doesn't really work for any number of reasons but I would not put it past this production team.

So about those butterflies... you don't want to beam Rios out in front of witnesses (after doing the same thing yourselves last episode) but you don't anticipate any consequences from letting a whole bus full of ICE detainees loose somewhere in SoCal? I'm not one to judge but I'm pretty sure Rios was the only misunderstood time traveler amongst the bunch. The rest of the people who were in jail might have been there for a reason, you know? I doubt we'll come back to this particular plot but I wish they would stop worrying about contaminating the timeline while they are in the midst of deliberately crapping all over it.

[greekmom]

If you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all is the motto.

The only thing I'll say it was nice to see Lea Thompson in a small role.

Spoiler

The rest of it suck balls. Sorry

 

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

The only thing I'll say it was nice to see Lea Thompson in a small role.

She's directed the last couple of episodes, right?

[MissLucas]

Oh, we're doing a Six??? I see what you did there with Jurati's bombshell red dress, show (even though the roles were reserved)!

I have annoyances:

• Not another Dr. Soong complete with another version of a preposterously named daughter who looks exactly like Soji!?!
•  Picard's claim that historical data of this century got botched, is ridiculous. Star Trek so far never had problems coming up with historical minutiae.  Clearly that's the writers hand-waving why we've never heard of his astronaut great-aunt before. That's what you get for deciding to go on a time-travel arc for this season.
• Not enough fun with Seven and Raffi!
• The Watcher looks like Laris because???
• Raffi is now starting to hallucinate Elnor???
• I suppose the answer to both questions is that show wanted to keep the actors around. Which could have been achieved by not getting Elnor killed. 
• Of course the French cop was smoking. Why not give him a beret and a baguette to complete the cliche hattrick?
• All it takes to take out a Borg Queen is gumption and a shotgun.

Oh well *takes another one of Janeway's aspirins* still here for Jurati being a badass now with a Borg update!

 

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I have annoyances:

• All it takes to take out a Borg Queen is gumption and a shotgun.

The cop should be dead... Hostage Rescue 101... Kill shots with rifles / pistols only.  Short barrel shotgun at that range kills everyone 

[thuganomics85]

At least this episode used all of its main cast again with Raffi briefly hallucinating Elnor to get Evan Evagora on screen for a second (although, I'm guessing he's still going to not be dead for good once this is all said and done) and Isa Briones making her return as Soong's daughter who I'm guessing it what inspired Soji/Dahj.  And, of course, good old Brent Spiner himself getting the special "and" billing in the credits!

While I get teleporting Rios away in the middle of the bus would have been problematic, there is no telling how many butterflies could have been caused all the other detainees escaping, assuming they were destined to be taken away.  Really though, arguably any minor change could have lasting implications, so it really is better to just almost hand-wave anything involving time-travel and the implications of it in television or film.

So, Laris herself really isn't the Supervisor, but has just taken her form for whatever reason.  Her mission is to "supervise" Picard's descendent who is being manipulated by Q to not want to go on a space mission that will end up impacting the human race in a way to avoid the dystopian the gang got a glimpse of earlier.  And he's know roped in Soong as well by promising him a cure for his daughter's disease.  What is his endgame here?

Thought Agnes was just going to take out the cop instead in order to make the Borg Queen lose her leverage.  Instead she fatally shoots the Queen, but she's still able to kind of assimilate Agnes?  It looks like Agnes is still more or less in control of herself, but the Queen is now in her head as well.  Fun times will no doubt be had once everyone else finds out!

[Llywela]

9 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

•  Picard's claim that historical data of this century got botched, is ridiculous. Star Trek so far never had problems coming up with historical minutiae.  Clearly that's the writers hand-waving why we've never heard of his astronaut great-aunt before. That's what you get for deciding to go on a time-travel arc for this season.

It's actually Star Trek canon that the history of this era is unreliable - World War III is about to kick off, an epic nuclear war in which many of the records of the era were corrupted or completely lost, that's been established in previous Treks. We've never heard of Renee Picard before (apart from this season's premiere, in which Picard referenced her in his speech at the Academy) because she was never relevant to a storyline before.

I'm enjoying the season, overall. I don't think it's perfect, nothing is, but it is fun and entertaining to watch, with an intriguing enough storyline to keep me engrossed and eager for the next episode.

Slightly disappointed that after Raffi and Seven spent so much time fretting about Rios, they didn't actually get a proper reunion scene with him, even to ask what the hell went wrong to put him on that bus. Covid shooting bubbles strike again. The group scenes are all stitched together in the same way the multi-holo scenes were last season, so they wouldn't have to have too many people all in one room.

[Stardancer Supreme]

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

The only thing I'll say it was nice to see Lea Thompson in a small role.

 

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

She's directed the last couple of episodes, right?

Yes, she did! Jonathan Frakes directed this episode.

 

Thing is, they shouldn't have even had the discussion about preserving timelines.  Their mere presence in this timeline stomps all the butterflies, in addition to the shenanigans our crew have found themselves in. All of this is supposed to be set back to normal (or will it?) by the end of the season.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[paigow]

17 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

All of this is supposed to be set back to normal (or will it?) by the end of the season.

Season 3 is in the can... maybe Picard & Seven return to the Confederation timeline and turn it into the Federation

[Ottis]

This entire season is a circle jerk. Instead of interesting new ideas or personal revelations, we’re going to the “past” (our money-saving present) to fix something made up that will eventually lead to … nothing having happened. The entire Rios adventure amounted to … what? Soongh and his daughter… whatever. Even Agnes being Borgish is Farscape. I don’t know what the writers were thinking. This season says absolutely nothing.

[salaydouk]

11 minutes ago, Ottis said:

This entire season is a circle jerk. Instead of interesting new ideas or personal revelations, we’re going to the “past” (our money-saving present) to fix something made up that will eventually lead to … nothing having happened. The entire Rios adventure amounted to … what? Soongh and his daughter… whatever. Even Agnes being Borgish is Farscape. I don’t know what the writers were thinking. This season says absolutely nothing.

Right there with you! I came here today to write something along the same lines... I was going to try to be positive but I am finding it really difficult to not be critical and annoyed right now.  We are what halfway into this season's set of shows and it still seem like this show has not gotten to its point and is add more ingredients to the pot instead of letting it coalesce. 

Since now everyone is back on La Sirena, what was the point to have us for ~3 episodes watching Raffi, Seven and Rios bomb around LA?  I mean they were sent to LA with no information/way to find the "Watcher." Not that I didn't enjoy the Raffi/Seven buddy cop vibe or the Easter Eggs, but what did it do for this season's plot as far as we know up to this point... absolutely nothing.  Since this show is named Picard, of course it would have to be Picard that would find the "Watcher" and the only means, knowledge of Guinan her location, to do so.  So why didn't he just go looking first with Raffi/Seven or basically any two of those three(adding Rios)?  Also it resulted in leaving one person(Agnes), and the weakest one at that,  alone with the Borg Queen how is that freaking safe?  

And now Q with what appears to be an vendetta aganist Picard?!?!  Actively undermining/destroying the timeline? Q's MO was always about testing/needling what he(Q) thought was Picard inflated sense of intellegence( Encounter at Farpoint), ability to handle difficult situations(Q Who), or his hubris( Tapestry.) It was always about Q, for the most part, playing with Picard and marionetting him around for his own enjoyment and not necessary playing with all of humanity or other sentient life in the alpha quadrant. (Though you could say that Q exposing the Federation to the Borg "early" does fall into that category.)  But here now he has not only has altered the timeline, he is an active participant to that divergence and seeking help to do so since he doens't seem to be able to do it himself.  It doesn't align to his prior behaviour. And doesn't align with why I thought Q showed up in the first place in episode 1/2( inability maintain a relationship/family), unless of course I was just "fooled."  Of course this could throw back to Picards comment that Q is not well which at the time we did not know if it was true or not and if so mental or physical.  But at this point, after the end of "The Watcher",  it would seem to have to be both?  

[marinw]

No NASA flight surgeon is going to clear Renee for the mission if her depression is overwhelming her. The irony here is that backing out might be the right choice for Renee if not for the timeline. And Io? We will be lucky if we are back on the Moon by 2024. So maybe this until our timeline? 

[jah1986]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

This entire season is a circle jerk. Instead of interesting new ideas or personal revelations, we’re going to the “past” (our money-saving present) to fix something made up that will eventually lead to … nothing having happened. The entire Rios adventure amounted to … what? Soongh and his daughter… whatever. Even Agnes being Borgish is Farscape. I don’t know what the writers were thinking. This season says absolutely nothing.

Regarding the bolded, glad I'm not the only one who saw that comparison. I was thinking "not another Harvey/Scorpius". The season started out so promising, but now it feels like it's starting to spin out of control.

[MissLucas]

14 minutes ago, jah1986 said:

Regarding the bolded, glad I'm not the only one who saw that comparison. I was thinking "not another Harvey/Scorpius". The season started out so promising, but now it feels like it's starting to spin out of control.

I dunno seeing the Borg Queen in a Hawaii shirt could be fun 😁

[Stardancer Supreme]

Upon rewatch, I am still wondering what Q's motivation for trying to wipe out the Picard family line.  This thing with JLP has pretty much informed what we know of this particular Q and I want to see if the Continuum is finally tired of Q's obsession with Picards.

[rtms77]

Last time I heard NASA was out of the space shuttle business, and space exploration was left to the private sector, hence Space X and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos. It could explain why Renee , who is clearly troubled could still get on the mission.

Why hasn’t the Continum stepped in? Unless Q loss of power is of their doing. 
I guess not every special powerful aliens know of each other, 😂, though for beings so powerful I can’t believe they’ve never crossed paths. If anything they seem to be kissing cousins with the Continum. 
 

Seven has come a long way from her Borg arrogance. Now Raffi considers her boring, 😝 It is fun to watch the two of them together. Adding in Rios just makes it better. So far though, not one of them has had anything to do but get into trouble for 5 eps now. Here’s hoping the gala really shows them working together.

Oh Agnus, speaking of someone depressed etc. Wow she just willingly walked into the Borg Queens plan didn’t she? It will be interesting to see what kind of Borg she becomes. I’m with others who say she’s the Borg Queen we saw in the beginning. 

[Starchild]

12 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

The Supervisor used the time old trick of taking the face of someone Picard would trust.  

That implies intentionality, but she didn't seem to know who Laris was supposed to be. So I have no idea how/why this human drafted by aliens to protect the "tapestry" of the universe should coincidentally look identical to someone who has just so happened to hop over from another timeline and landed smack dab in the middle of their scope of influence. Eddies of time, indeed.

 

41 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Wow she just willingly walked into the Borg Queens plan didn’t she?

Plan? She just willingly walked into the Borg Queen. What could possible possess an intelligent human being to stand so close to an entity that regularly shoots out appendages?

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Right there with you! I came here today to write something along the same lines... I was going to try to be positive but I am finding it really difficult to not be critical and annoyed right now.  We are what halfway into this season's set of shows and it still seem like this show has not gotten to its point and is add more ingredients to the pot instead of letting it coalesce. 

Since now everyone is back on La Sirena, what was the point to have us for ~3 episodes watching Raffi, Seven and Rios bomb around LA?  I mean they were sent to LA with no information/way to find the "Watcher." Not that I didn't enjoy the Raffi/Seven buddy cop vibe or the Easter Eggs, but what did it do for this season's plot as far as we know up to this point... absolutely nothing.  Since this show is named Picard, of course it would have to be Picard that would find the "Watcher" and the only means, knowledge of Guinan her location, to do so.  So why didn't he just go looking first with Raffi/Seven or basically any two of those three(adding Rios)?  Also it resulted in leaving one person(Agnes), and the weakest one at that,  alone with the Borg Queen how is that freaking safe?  

And now Q with what appears to be an vendetta aganist Picard?!?!  Actively undermining/destroying the timeline? Q's MO was always about testing/needling what he(Q) thought was Picard inflated sense of intellegence( Encounter at Farpoint), ability to handle difficult situations(Q Who), or his hubris( Tapestry.) It was always about Q, for the most part, playing with Picard and marionetting him around for his own enjoyment and not necessary playing with all of humanity or other sentient life in the alpha quadrant. (Though you could say that Q exposing the Federation to the Borg "early" does fall into that category.)  But here now he has not only has altered the timeline, he is an active participant to that divergence and seeking help to do so since he doens't seem to be able to do it himself.  It doesn't align to his prior behaviour. And doesn't align with why I thought Q showed up in the first place in episode 1/2( inability maintain a relationship/family), unless of course I was just "fooled."  Of course this could throw back to Picards comment that Q is not well which at the time we did not know if it was true or not and if so mental or physical.  But at this point, after the end of "The Watcher",  it would seem to have to be both?  

Picard didn't know that Guinan had had that bar, in that location, as long ago as 2024, that's why he didn't go there until Agnes extracted the coordinates from the Borg Queen. He also didn't recognise the coordinates as being 10 Forward Ave until he got there, which is fair enough - I also tend to know places by address rather than map reference! The others went first in search of any alien tech they might be able to find, in hopes it would lead them to the Watcher, and at the time they left there was no way of knowing how long it would take to get the ship repaired and the BQ woken up - or even if it would be possible to wake her and extract information from her at all. That's why they went, despite not having any clues, leaving both Picard and Agnes with the BQ. Events then unfolded - Rios got into trouble, Raffi and Seven couldn't find any trace to lead them to the Watcher and had to abandon the search to go after Rios because he was in very real danger, Agnes got those coordinates from the BQ but couldn't contact the others to tell them, so Picard decided to go there himself rather than waste any more time. It all unfolded perfectly logically and unfortunately to result in Agnes being left alone with the BQ. In a single episode plot it would have been structured differently, of course, but this is a story being told over 10 episodes, therefore of course there are going to be twists and wrong turns along the way.

The ICE storyline was primarily a character story, allowing us to get to know Rios better and to spend time with Raffi and Seven, exploring their relationship - have we really all forgotten how to appreciate a character story? Not everything has to be about the plot - but it did also support the plot arc in that by separating those three from the others with no communications, it was the reason Picard went off to find the Watcher alone and the reason Agnes ended up alone with the BQ. The storyline also introduced the character of Theresa, who may well come back into play again later. (Rios left his comm badge at the clinic, too. Is that significant, or will it be a loose thread left dangling?). The main problem with the ICE escapade in this episode was that it felt anticlimactic and unfinished, mainly because after laying all the groundwork for how worried Raffi and Seven were about Rios, there was no real resolution scene once they'd rescued him, and the storyline (and character development) needed that, it needed them to actually exchange a few words with him, to show their relief and ask him what the hell went wrong (he should also still be struggling with his concussion, really speaking). That was a strike for covid shooting bubbles - his scene outside the bus and theirs were very clearly shot separately. This season is doing better with the characters than season one did, but they still aren't joining all the dots fully - like how there really needed to be at least one meaningful scene between Raffi and Elnor in 2.01 to establish their new relationship by showing it to us, instead of just talking about it, before having Raffi be so grief-stricken over his death. They managed it for Seven and Rios - two short comms conversations in eps 1 and 2 were all it took to absolutely establish that having met and struck up a rapport in S1 they have since become good friends...and now I'm thinking about how Seven has been living on La Sirena with the merged Rios holos, and how that plays into her relationship with the real Rios... But my point was that Raffi's and Seven's worry over Rios felt earned because we've seen their friendship on-screen, whereas Raffi's grief over Elnor doesn't feel earned because we haven't seen their relationship on-screen.

I don't think Q has a vendetta against Picard. I think he is working to a very specific agenda and we don't yet have enough information to know what that agenda is, or what game he is playing. We are only halfway through the season, after all. Expecting to know everything by now is like expecting to know whodunnit halfway through an Agatha Christie. Of course we are still gaining new information and exploring new twists! The story is still unfolding, with a long way still to go.

I also think Q is very disappointed in Picard, and that stems from the decision to destroy the Stargazer with all hands back in 2.01. I think that was the wrong choice and everything Q is doing now is designed to take us back to that same moment, to make a different choice. They are signposting pretty clearly that it will turn out to be Agnes under the hood in that scene, rather than the actual Borg Queen - and her behaviour, let us remember, was highly atypical of the Borg. How we get from here to there, and what it was all, ultimately, all about, we have yet to find out - but I, for one, am intrigued to watch it play out.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Llywela

[starri]

If you call the number listed on Q's calling card, you get an outgoing message that the Q Continuum can't come to the phone and that it's pointless to leave a message since they already know why you're calling.

I wanted Tallinn to have a cat.

[chaifan]

14 hours ago, Starchild said:

She just willingly walked into the Borg Queen. What could possible possess an intelligent human being to stand so close to an entity that regularly shoots out appendages?

I think we will later learn that Agnes did this fully knowing the consequences.  It was the only way to get the information they would need to get home.  I like the little bit that we saw of the Queen in her head, though. 

I'm not 100% sold on the theory that the cloaked Borg is Agnes.  Or, at least, not wholly Agnes.  That would cause so many timey wimey issues it makes my head spin. 

[Llywela]

22 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I think we will later learn that Agnes did this fully knowing the consequences.  It was the only way to get the information they would need to get home.  I like the little bit that we saw of the Queen in her head, though. 

I'm not 100% sold on the theory that the cloaked Borg is Agnes.  Or, at least, not wholly Agnes.  That would cause so many timey wimey issues it makes my head spin. 

We've known from the start that timey-wimey issues were involved, though. It was one of the first things we knew about the Borg ship, before they even knew it was Borg. It came through a rift in space-time. And now our intrepid gang have travelled in time... 

[chaifan]

Oh, I know there are all sorts of timey wimey stuff going on.  I'm just saying that thinking about Agnes becoming the cloaked Borg makes my head spin.  I mean, if that is Agnes, then is the Borg ship from the past, or the future?  Or did Borg Agnes go from 2024 into the far future to come back to the 24th (?) century where it then called out for Picard?  If Borg Agnes did that, then why wouldn't the Borg have completely changed by the time we're in the 24th century, from brutal assimilation species to hey, let's all make friends and drink wine together species?  And if that had happened, then what happens to Seven?  Does she become Seven at all?  Probably not.  So who's hanging out with Raffi?   And is all this time travel a way for Borg Agnes to save herself from becoming Borg in the first place? 

See?  It just keeps on going. 

So, like I said, I'm not 100% sold on cloaked Borg being Agnes.  I suppose it could be any one of them, or none. 

[paigow]

Rios has already saved the timeline... his deportation buddy [Pedro?] becomes the John Connoresque hero that somehow makes sure Zefram Cochrane is born.

[tennisgurl]

All of this timey whimey stuff makes my head hurt, especially because we already know so much about Trek cannon and we've spent so much time mucking about in the past before. I keep expecting to see those time agents from DS9 to show up, looking very long suffering at Star Fleets latest shenanigans. Its awfully convinient that the logs of much of the 20th/21st century are so spotty, between the super humans and the wars and such, that way the show can basically do whatever in the present day and none of the characters can be all "that seems odd, that's not what we learned in early Americana 202!" I am also taking this as a bit of a meta joke about the messy handling of continuity in Trek when it comes to any modern times, we know its always...casual...when it comes to continuity. 

We get back to the big screwed up Soong family, and we find out that his daughter happens to look just like Soji and her sister, because of course she does. Some families pass along names, robot families pass along faces. 

The doctor at the hearing was named Vasiliy Rozhenko, the same last name of Worf's adopted human family. Did we meet one of their ancestors as well as a past Picard?

Rather appropriate that the Supervisors have shown up after sixty years, the last remnants of a backdoor pilot from the original show, who were introduced in an episode where the gang also went back in time to explore modern day (60s) times, that's the kind of deep cut fanservice that I am here for.

[Lokiberry]

14 hours ago, starri said:

If you call the number listed on Q's calling card, you get an outgoing message that the Q Continuum can't come to the phone and that it's pointless to leave a message since they already know why you're calling.

I wanted Tallinn to have a cat.

Maybe she is the cat.

[Ottis]

22 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Since now everyone is back on La Sirena, what was the point to have us for ~3 episodes watching Raffi, Seven and Rios bomb around LA?

It's the worst possible explanation: They save $$$ when they shoot in our actual world.

20 hours ago, rtms77 said:

Seven has come a long way from her Borg arrogance.

I *liked* her Borg arrogance. But then I like arrogance, generally. Because arrogant people believe they are better at something than others, and I like to see if they are. If they are, I can learn something. If they aren't, I stop paying attention to them. Raffi isn't wrong - Seven is more boring this way.

22 hours ago, marinw said:

No NASA flight surgeon is going to clear Renee for the mission if her depression is overwhelming her.

I *cannot* believe that I am watching an episode of a Star Trek series and a key character reveal is that someone is ... depressed. Depression matters, don't get me wrong. It just isn't why I have ever watched scifi. 

16 hours ago, Llywela said:

The ICE storyline was primarily a character story, allowing us to get to know Rios better and to spend time with Raffi and Seven, exploring their relationship - have we really all forgotten how to appreciate a character story?

Characters drive the best shows, including Star Trek. However, there are interesting ways to fill out a character and mundane, cliched ways. Wandering around today's LA while achieving absolutely nothing is the latter. That stuff was truly a waste of time. Look no further for an opposite example than the Agnes/Borg queen dialogue and relationship. We learned more about Agnes - sometimes through the words of the Borg Queen - and we saw her further define herself through their chess match, and her actions like wanting the policeman to live. That was a very good character story AND now we have the Borg Queen merged with Agnes ... which may be needed to get them home. All worthwhile  developments.

 

 

[Chit Chat]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:14 PM, Ottis said:

The entire Rios adventure amounted to … what?

The producer/writers making sure that we know that in this timeline we're all supposedly xenophobes, and ICE officers are horrible people.  I'm rolling my eyes as I type this because I don't need any lectures from the likes of them.  

FWIW, the Borg Queen gives me the heebie jeebies.  Seriously, she creeps me out to the point that I really am having a hard time watching the show.  

[salaydouk]

2 hours ago, ChitChat said:

The producer/writers making sure that we know that in this timeline we're all supposedly xenophobes, and ICE officers are horrible people.  I'm rolling my eyes as I type this because I don't need any lectures from the likes of them.  

FWIW, the Borg Queen gives me the heebie jeebies.  Seriously, she creeps me out to the point that I really am having a hard time watching the show.  

Right there with you on both counts! 

The Borg have _always_ creeped me out and the Queen especially.  I feel like they are the adult version of  "monsters under the bed". 

[Hiyo]

Quote

we're all supposedly xenophobes, and ICE officers are horrible people

This franchise was woke from day one, before woke was a thing, so glad to see they are carrying along this element of the franchise.

The show isn't completely off in how it's choosing to represent those two issues, to be honest.

Quote

I'm enjoying the season, overall. I don't think it's perfect, nothing is, but it is fun and entertaining to watch, with an intriguing enough storyline to keep me engrossed and eager for the next episode.

I feel the same.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Hiyo

[Llywela]

10 hours ago, Ottis said:

Characters drive the best shows, including Star Trek. However, there are interesting ways to fill out a character and mundane, cliched ways. Wandering around today's LA while achieving absolutely nothing is the latter. That stuff was truly a waste of time. Look no further for an opposite example than the Agnes/Borg queen dialogue and relationship. We learned more about Agnes - sometimes through the words of the Borg Queen - and we saw her further define herself through their chess match, and her actions like wanting the policeman to live. That was a very good character story AND now we have the Borg Queen merged with Agnes ... which may be needed to get them home. All worthwhile  developments.

Hilarious that you praise the Agnes-Borg storyline for developing Agnes as a character, while criticising the ICE storyline for...doing exactly the same for Rios, Seven and Raffi.

Watching Rios attempt to navigate this dangerous situation all alone provided loads of insight into his character - the way he couldn't stop himself from trying to help when he saw people in trouble, even if it meant putting himself in harm's way, even when he knew he was supposed to avoid exactly that kind of entanglement with authority. We were also shown how easily he was able to build a rapport with Theresa, with her son, with Pedro, demonstrating clearly how charismatic and affable he can be, for all that he put on such a big show of reclusiveness back in season one. That's valuable character information, building on what we already knew about him - his kindness, his impulsiveness, his laid-back charm, and that biting snark, all of it showcased beautifully through his various interactions with other people through this storyline. And watching Raffi and Seven working to track him down and rescue him allowed us to spend time with them, delving into their relationship - how it both does and doesn't work. We got to see how they relate to each other, how they balance one another - Seven's flight instinct versus Raffi's fight instinct - and how they resolve differences of opinion, finding ways to compromise between their very different approaches to any given situation, the different ways they offer support to one another when needed. They delved further into Raffi's emotional issues, the way she has projected Gabe onto Elnor only to lose him too, how her sorrow and feelings of helpnessness translate into anger, wanting to fight everything, in contrast with Seven, who sees safety in staying on the move. All valuable character and relationship insight that was sorely needed, given that this season skipped forward two years from first encounters to an established but struggling relationship. So no, I disagree that this storyline didn't achieve anything. It supported the main plot by keeping the three most physically capable characters occupied elsewhere so that Picard had to go after the Watcher alone, leaving Agnes alone with the Borg Queen - Agnes's entire storyline could not have happened if the trio hadn't been held up elsewhere - and it further developed those three characters at the same time, while also shining a light onto a very real social situation. Plus, it introduced the character of Theresa, who is probably going to come back into play later. All perfectly Star Trek and very much not a waste. It could only be considered a waste, in fact, if you believe that everything in a story has to always be about The Plot, which is simply not true. Spending time getting to know characters and their relationships better is also a very important part of what storytelling is all about.

The only real problem with this story was the rushed resolution, that there was no proper reunion scene for Rios, Raffi and Seven to round it off, which they needed to bring closure and catharsis to everything we'd been shown of how frightened Raffi and Seven were for their friend, but that was because they were in different shooting bubbles. Covid strikes again.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Llywela

[Haleth]

So Agnes is 2 for 2 in seasons where a foreign influence gets into her head.  Girl has to stop letting people touch her.  I guess that's a result of being so lonely in every universe that she's vulnerable to an invasion of her brain?  I was surprised however that Agnes is still herself; I was thinking for sure the Queen completely took over before letting Agnes shoot her old body and was just pretending to be Agnes.  So there is still hope that Agnes can overcome the Queen's influence.

Speaking of stomping on butterflies, I keep wondering about Rios's communicator, if he'll ever retrieve it.

I look forward to next week when (hopefully) everyone will be at the fawncy party.  Shenanigans galore.

[Lebanna]

Although we have never heard of Renée Picard before this season, what they have done is retrospectively named JL’s tragic young nephew René after her. That could lead to a certain sense of catharsis for him, if he able to protect this Renée and therefore at least René’s presumed pride in his namesake ancestor. The name René means ‘reborn’.

It’s good that Renée is an aunt rather than a direct ancestor, as at least there is a small sense of jeopardy for her. Plus, we won’t have to see JL forget how to play the guitar and then start to fade away if she doesn’t get on that flight.

The Picard genealogy has always been a bit weird. On one hand, they loudly celebrate all the cool ancestors (while forgetting about the ones who committed a bunch of atrocities), but on the other hand, recently anyone who didn’t want to spend their life working at a vineyard got shunned. It’s an odd dichotomy. Maurice Picard was clearly such a bad apple.

Also odd is how sketchy their knowledge of 21st century history is, compared to the amount of information available about baseball statistics of the same era.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Lebanna

[Stardancer Supreme]

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

They delved further into Raffi's emotional issues, the way she has projected Gabe onto Elnor only to lose him too, how her sorrow and feelings of helplessness translate into anger, wanting to fight everything, in contrast with Seven, who sees safety in staying on the move.

In Season 1, it was established that Raffi was estranged from her only son, who was about to have a child with his wife.  It was really easy to see how Raffi took Elnor under her wing as he navigates through Starfleet himself, as Raffi is ultimately married to Starfleet.  She even makes sure Elnor is on her ship in the first episode in this Season, to keep him from getting into trouble with his Absolute Candor. She obviously trained with Elnor as you see in the second episode where she held him in check before allowing him to cut loose on the Confederation soldiers keeping them hostage. As a mother, I can see the grief of losing your children earlier than you expected, and for better or worse, Raffi is Elnor's mother figure. 

[norcalgal]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

So Agnes is 2 for 2 in seasons where a foreign influence gets into her head.  Girl has to stop letting people touch her.  I guess that's a result of being so lonely in every universe that she's vulnerable to an invasion of her brain? 

I know there was a 2 year time jump from the end of S1 to the first episode of S2. At the end of S1, Rios and Agnes were in a relationship, right? If I interpreted it correctly, it was *Agnes* who broke off their relationship, not Rios, so does this mean Agnes deliberately chooses to be alone?  or that Rios was just not the right partner?  what went wrong in their relationship?

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, norcalgal said:

I know there was a 2 year time jump from the end of S1 to the first episode of S2. At the end of S1, Rios and Agnes were in a relationship, right? If I interpreted it correctly, it was *Agnes* who broke off their relationship, not Rios, so does this mean Agnes deliberately chooses to be alone?  or that Rios was just not the right partner?  what went wrong in their relationship?

Judging from their bickering comm conversation in 2.02, it was a combination of Agnes being unable/unwilling to truly open up (to a flesh-and-blood human, Rios said she preferred the company of synthetic pets and people), and Rios returning to Starfleet and being much less available/having other priorities, other demands on his time (which is also a problem for Raffi and Seven, who have had very different careers keeping them apart). What we saw in season one was really only the early getting-to-know you stages of a relationship, rather than anything more, they still barely knew each other back then. Since, they have learned that while they still care about one another, they aren't really all that compatible.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Llywela

[marinw]

3 hours ago, Lebanna said:

The Picard genealogy has always been a bit weird. On one hand, they loudly celebrate all the cool ancestors (while forgetting about the ones who committed a bunch of atrocities), but on the other hand, recently anyone who didn’t want to spend their life working at a vineyard got shunned. It’s an odd dichotomy. Maurice Picard was clearly such a bad apple.

I can't remember which one, but in one of the many, many Star Trek novelizations there was mention of a Loiuse Picard who was one of the first people on Mars.

[paigow]

Where are the Thaddeus Riker [Civil War Hero] offspring? Any of them on the launch crew? The other meddlesome Q from Voyager that wanted to die was involved in many key Earth events... Maybe he will show up or is already sabotaging DeLancie!Q

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, norcalgal said:

I know there was a 2 year time jump from the end of S1 to the first episode of S2. At the end of S1, Rios and Agnes were in a relationship, right? If I interpreted it correctly, it was *Agnes* who broke off their relationship, not Rios, so does this mean Agnes deliberately chooses to be alone?  or that Rios was just not the right partner?  what went wrong in their relationship?

Given everything that happened to both of them in S1 (or before Rios had definitely not come to terms with his CO's suicide) they should both have been in therapy before embarking on a relationship but this is not ST: Discovery 🤷‍♀️

[Pallas]

On 4/1/2022 at 4:02 AM, starri said:

I wanted Tallinn to have a cat.

 Are you sure she doesn't spell it Talon? 

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, Pallas said:

 Are you sure she doesn't spell it Talon? 

Subtitles and Amazon's cast credits give it as Tallinn.

[chaifan]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Where are the Thaddeus Riker [Civil War Hero] offspring? Any of them on the launch crew? The other meddlesome Q from Voyager that wanted to die was involved in many key Earth events... Maybe he will show up or is already sabotaging DeLancie!Q

I'm sort of hoping we see Q's son, played by DeLancie's actual son. 

[millennium]

On 3/31/2022 at 8:59 PM, salaydouk said:

 I am finding it really difficult to not be critical and annoyed right now. 

Me too.  I want more.  I don't know what constitutes more, but I know this isn't it.   The story seems so LAZY.  There's nothing inspirational or thought-provoking.  It leaves me feeling unsatisfied.

On 4/1/2022 at 5:35 PM, tennisgurl said:

We get back to the big screwed up Soong family, and we find out that his daughter happens to look just like Soji and her sister, because of course she does. Some families pass along names, robot families pass along faces.

It all feels like a bad, never-aired pilot for Caprica.  Didn't the scientist/creator of the Cylons have an obsession with his daughter too?   I wish the showrunners would get it through their skulls that viewers like me want Data, NOT Brent Spiner.   If Spiner doesn't want to do Data anymore, fine, let's explore some other aspect of Picard's final years.   But please stop feeding us one fucking incarnation of Soong after another.   The Soongs aren't that interesting and they tend to come off as dicks every time.

I'm glad someone asked "Couldn't Q just snap his fingers and ..." because the psychiatrist charade seemed so far beneath Q that it was not credible.

How many times before the 10th episode will Picard invoke Kirk?   He's starting to sound like a name-dropper. 

Wow, I was totally caught off guard when it was revealed the Borq queen was secretly inside Alice said nobody ever.

[paigow]

Picard and Kirk are bros... Kirk has the best Canon moments anyway...

[ML89]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:09 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Yes, she did! Jonathan Frakes directed this episode.

The whole explanation of how to get into the party…I stg I am expecting Parker or Sophie to show up. Then I remembered Jonathan was directing. (Leverage)

I am really thinking we’ll get a whole switch up and ModernLaris is the bad actor, not Q. Why are they taking her at face value? Although I did like Picard saying “well, he’s not dead”  and defending his team.  I also wish Agnes had just shot the Borg Queen and it wasn’t the evil version of Spock leaving his consciousness in McCoy, speaking of Trek raiding its past. Because I’m tired of the Borg and I would have loved Agnes doing the “get away from him, you bitch” speech. Ending with “a you know nothing  about me” when she pulled the trigger.

While I loved Raffi and Seven as the road company A-Team, really, the ICE guys can’t understand Spanish? Then they just let those poor guys wander around the desert? Why not commandeer the bus until they can at least get to some civilization? How did Pedro have a phone?

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I wish the showrunners would get it through their skulls that viewers like me want Data, NOT Brent Spiner. 

Viewers like me are ok with Brent Spiner not being Data. So I guess the showrunners have a tough juggling to many balls to try to appeal to everyone.

Quote

Because I’m tired of the Borg

I'm not. The Borg we saw in the first episode were arguably the most intimidating they have been since Best of Both Worlds, so I definitely want to see where things are going with them.

[SnarkShark]

Doppelgangers are the essence of lazy shiate writing.  And we get THREE in this. Ugh.

I will say I fully expected the cell phone thing to be assimilation of people via data lines. So... er... good on that?  Actually not.  The Borg Queen's previous helplessness in this series is hard to explain.  

But frankly ANY plot with assimilation now is going to be total crap.   CRAP.  And Agnes being perpetually a victim?  Beyond old, even with her outsmarting the Queen once. Screw this. 

Freeing a bus full of people bound for deportation is actually a HUGE change.  This show is dumb as rocks if that's presumed to not to be such. Magnified by time, the course of thousands of people's lives, including many living instead of dying, by the 24th century.  People who become Americans who wouldn't have been.  People living or wealthy instead of poor or dead. People simply in a different place, even if successful. Etc.

So all Picards are French with British accents? 

In the end might Renee just be a distraction, while Soong is the real change?   Because I don't trust him simply being a weapon of convenience for Q. Also, which Picard is the actual target?  Or is this as dumb and predictable as it appears to be?  With Soong just being an all too convenient assassin.

And nice drone-assembled forcefield he had, two years from now.   And nice advanced twist on RF tech at that party, two years from now.  Reasonable only up till the ridiculous identity database is tied to it.  Because that kind of integration isn't here yet.

On 3/31/2022 at 3:29 PM, paigow said:

Season 3 is in the can... maybe Picard & Seven return to the Confederation timeline and turn it into the Federation

You can't change a present into a different present from the present.  Unless you mean it remains an alternate universe, and they do a season long Mirror, Mirror retread, where they nudge them towards revolution, then go home.   Which would be dreadful, honestly, especially after that's been retread so repeatedly by all of the Trek shows.  

Edited April 3, 2022 by SnarkShark

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

Viewers like me are ok with Brent Spiner not being Data. So I guess the showrunners have a tough juggling to many balls to try to appeal to everyone.

Precisely why I qualified it with "like me."  Though I don't pretend to understand Spiner's appeal outside of Data.