S04.E06: Maisel vs. Lennon: The Cut Contest

[SoMuchTV]

13 hours ago, millennium said:

Plotwise, L.Roy Dunham seemed like a long side trip to nowhere.   It's nice they wrote a part for a trans actress (Hari Neff, who also played Rabbi Jen a.k.a. the trans rabbi in "And Just Like That") but it felt about as organic as the celebrities who used to open windows as Batman and Robin were bat-climbing up the side of a building.

Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t understand why this was a part written for a trans actress. I thought the big reveal was that L. Roy was a woman. Surely in 1960 there’s not going to be an additional twist of the reviewer being an out trans woman?

Or is this just saying that someone liked the actress and specifically wrote a part for her? Again, maybe I’m missing some behind the scenes stuff. 

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t understand why this was a part written for a trans actress. I thought the big reveal was that L. Roy was a woman. Surely in 1960 there’s not going to be an additional twist of the reviewer being an out trans woman?

Or is this just saying that someone liked the actress and specifically wrote a part for her? Again, maybe I’m missing some behind the scenes stuff. 

Whether or not they wrote the role for her (I haven't heard that, other than here - but I don't exactly follow a lot of stuff), it is nice she was cast for what to me looks like a regular role for a woman.

[buckboard]

We don't know that the part was written for a trans actress.  They wrote it for an actress and happened to cast a trans actress.   (I didn't even realize the actress was a trans woman until people wrote about it.) 

Trans women are women and can play cisgender women.  As numerous cisgender women have played trans women, Laverne Cox, for example, has played cisgender women.  
 

[SoMuchTV]

7 minutes ago, buckboard said:

We don't know that the part was written for a trans actress.  They wrote it for an actress and happened to cast a trans actress.   (I didn't even realize the actress was a trans woman until people wrote about it.) 

Trans women are women and can play cisgender women.  As numerous cisgender women have played trans women, Laverne Cox, for example, has played cisgender women.  
 

Yes, that was my point as well. I probably misunderstood the original post to say “this role was written for a transgender actress and played by so-and-so” when it was really saying “this role was written for so-and-so, who happens to be a transgender actress.”  Hope that distinction makes sense. 

[millennium]

1 hour ago, SoMuchTV said:

Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t understand why this was a part written for a trans actress. I thought the big reveal was that L. Roy was a woman. Surely in 1960 there’s not going to be an additional twist of the reviewer being an out trans woman?

Or is this just saying that someone liked the actress and specifically wrote a part for her? Again, maybe I’m missing some behind the scenes stuff. 

I don't know what the actual intention was.   The whole L. Roy Dunham plot felt like a shaggy dog story that didn't advance the storyline but existed merely for the reveal that L. Roy was a woman.   Also there was a clear trans subtext to the dialogue between Miriam and L. Roy.
 

Quote

 

Miriam:  I don't understand you're --

L.: L. Roy Dunham

Miriam:  You?

L.: Me.

Miriam: You're the one whose been writing all those terrible articles.

L.:  Actually I think they're pretty good, but yes.

Miriam:  But ... you're a woman.

L.: What?

Miriam:  And you've always been a woman.

L.  I have, yes.  But a better story if I hadn't though, right?  (winks)

 

That aside, I'm not sure a trans actress was the best choice for the part, especially given the rest of the dialogue.
 

Quote

 

Miriam: Do you have any idea how hard it is to do what I'm doing?  To go into these clubs run by men, dominated by men, and go up there and try to make men listen to me?

L.  Of course, that's why I write about you.  Because when I hand my editor a piece about you, the rougher the better -- I get print.  I get placement, I get this desk, I'm no longer a skirt.  I mean, hey, it's tough being a woman in journalism.

 

I don't know if the showrunners were trying to be cheeky or woke or make a point or what, but we live in times when there is escalating trans-misogyny in our society.  One of the favorite themes of people who find transgender women objectionable is that we are trying to replace cisgender women or deprive them of their chances for success (in high school and college sports, for example).  Another item in the anti-trans PowerPoint is that because we have allegedly benefited from male privilege at some point in our lives, we really cannot understand the hardships women endure socially and professionally, thus making our claim to womanhood shallow and illegitimate.

That's why I cringed when I saw they were using a trans actress to portray the woman who has made it her mission to drag another woman (Miriam) through the mud to further her own career.     I cringed even more when the character played by a trans actress complained about how hard it is to be a woman in journalism and be taken seriously by men.    I can give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt and allow that perhaps it was intended as a wry "fuck you" to the anti-trans tropes I cited above, but I'm not sure it worked.  Depending on one's perspective I think it could just as easily reinforce them.   Miriam wasn't in on any joke.  It wasn't like a nudge-nudge, wink-wink.    She clearly felt harassed and harmed by L.Roy Dunham.

Admittedly I'm close to these matters, but that's how the scene came across to me.  YMMV.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by millennium

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, Nicola said:

I would ask why I'm still watching, but: The cars alone... 

I agree with you on that one. The cars are so pretty. 

[txhorns79]

8 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

She makes good copy. It's a shame. If L. Roy Dunham and Midge met under different circumstances, they could probably be friends. They would bond over what it's like to be a woman in a male dominated business, and all the jerks and horrible things they have to put up with to be in the industry of thier choice. 

I was a little confused why Midge makes good copy.  Is Midge such a big star that a columnist would want to spend so much time writing column after column about her?  My impression from last season was that even when Midge was on the rise, she still was not well known, and Shy's tour was going to be the thing that made her big.  As it is now, it feels like Midge is still relatively obscure.

[shapeshifter]

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I was a little confused why Midge makes good copy.  Is Midge such a big star that a columnist would want to spend so much time writing column after column about her?  My impression from last season was that even when Midge was on the rise, she still was not well known, and Shy's tour was going to be the thing that made her big.  As it is now, it feels like Midge is still relatively obscure.

Maybe being obscure makes Midge a safe target? They had that scene in the beginning that contrasted Lenny Bruce's name recognition with Midge being a mother on the street uptown in a respectable neighborhood wearing an apron. 

[ProudMary]

I wasn't surprised that Miriam used her maiden name when she checked in at the paper as she was trying to get in to see the reporter, who'd be more apt to meet with an unknown Miriam Weissman, than with Mrs. Maisel, the comedian. She didn't realize that the reporter was her initial contact though, probably assuming the woman she was speaking to was a receptionist.

What really rang a bell for me was when she introduced herself to the Melamid daughters specifically as Miriam Maisel. You'd think she would have said, "Hi, I'm Rose's daughter Miriam." The daughters now know her married name and their father will be able to make the connection between the (60s inappropriate) female comedian and the matchmaker he hired who's supposed to be honorable and respectable. That could come back to bite Rose, not that Miriam did anything wrong.

 

[Daff]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:16 PM, Carolina Girl said:

I”m curious why L. Roy Dunham has such a hard-on for Midge and why the incredible need to kill her career.  

As with most of the characters here, she’s a narcissist with a one track mind. She needed a juicy story that the public would follow relentlessly, in order to boost circulation. Midge, unfortunately, landed in her crosshairs. She explained how she’s already profited greatly from the stories, and she’s not going to stop until she’s milked it for all she can get. Didn’t have to be Midge-she’s just handy and it’s working for her. Ruthless user. 

[DrSpaceman73]

3 hours ago, Daff said:

As with most of the characters here, she’s a narcissist with a one track mind. She needed a juicy story that the public would follow relentlessly, in order to boost circulation. Midge, unfortunately, landed in her crosshairs. She explained how she’s already profited greatly from the stories, and she’s not going to stop until she’s milked it for all she can get. Didn’t have to be Midge-she’s just handy and it’s working for her. Ruthless user. 

Right.  It's her job and that's the industry.  Pre internet it was about selling papers and she is writing what does that.  It was nothing about Midge personally.  

And it doesn't hurt that Midge keeps doing stupid things to stay newsworthy. Going to shys wedding to confront him.  The confrontation before the tv show. 

Basically the newspaper writer os trolling her and Midge came help but take the bait and can't leave it alone.  

She has a manager. What she needs is a publicist to tell her to stop being stupid. 

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't know what the actual intention was.   The whole L. Roy Dunham plot felt like a shaggy dog story that didn't advance the storyline but existed merely for the reveal that L. Roy was a woman.   Also there was a clear trans subtext to the dialogue between Miriam and L. Roy.
 

That aside, I'm not sure a trans actress was the best choice for the part, especially given the rest of the dialogue.
 

I don't know if the showrunners were trying to be cheeky or woke or make a point or what, but we live in times when there is escalating trans-misogyny in our society.  One of the favorite themes of people who find transgender women objectionable is that we are trying to replace cisgender women or deprive them of their chances for success (in high school and college sports, for example).  Another item in the anti-trans PowerPoint is that because we have allegedly benefited from male privilege at some point in our lives, we really cannot understand the hardships women endure socially and professionally, thus making our claim to womanhood shallow and illegitimate.

That's why I cringed when I saw they were using a trans actress to portray the woman who has made it her mission to drag another woman (Miriam) through the mud to further her own career.     I cringed even more when the character played by a trans actress complained about how hard it is to be a woman in journalism and be taken seriously by men.    I can give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt and allow that perhaps it was intended as a wry "fuck you" to the anti-trans tropes I cited above, but I'm not sure it worked.  Depending on one's perspective I think it could just as easily reinforce them.   Miriam wasn't in on any joke.  It wasn't like a nudge-nudge, wink-wink.    She clearly felt harassed and harmed by L.Roy Dunham.

Admittedly I'm close to these matters, but that's how the scene came across to me.  YMMV.

 

 

I thought the same thing. I am a WOC and there was not much representation when I was young. When someone that looked like me did something bad on tv, many people attributed it to me even though I was nothing like that.

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/06/marvelous-mrs-maisel-midge-apology/

 

Pretty good article about things most of us agree about.  I don't agree with all of it but most of it. 

I think the writer misses the point though about why she turns down meeting up with Shy again.   

Excellent article. Midge could have gotten Shy killed yet she gets to be the one who claims moral superiority.

Shy might have not had to fire everyone if Midge had not done that set. There might have been a snowball affect going on. Perhaps her show sparked up some long dead rumors?

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Right.  It's her job and that's the industry.  Pre internet it was about selling papers and she is writing what does that.  It was nothing about Midge personally.  

And it doesn't hurt that Midge keeps doing stupid things to stay newsworthy. Going to shys wedding to confront him.  The confrontation before the tv show. 

Basically the newspaper writer os trolling her and Midge came help but take the bait and can't leave it alone.  

She has a manager. What she needs is a publicist to tell her to stop being stupid. 

I'm not sure a publicist would make a dent in her behavior.  She and Sophie are cut from the same cloth in that regard. Though Sophie has managed to dial it down when she really wants something - she did very well on the talk show.

[Blakeston]

L. Roy said that her takedowns of Midge "kinda write themselves," because it's rare for there to be a female comic, let alone one who looks and talks like Midge.

So I think the idea is that the public is eager to see a woman get taken down, particularly if she's trying to make it in a "man's" profession, and if she dares to talk in an "unladylike" manner. And people will pay extra attention to the smackdowns if the victim is pretty.

One thing that bothered me was when Midge said, "You've always been a woman!" and L. Roy said, "I have. Be a better story if I hadn't, though, right?" And then she winked.

That seemed like a literal wink to the audience saying, "Isn't it funny? The actress is trans, so she hasn't always been a woman! Ha ha, get it?"

And yeah, that's really offensive. Not to mention unfunny.

I guess the best case scenario here is that the role was written first, and then someone suggested casting Hari Neff because they liked her acting. I'm finding it hard to believe that line was just a coincidence, though.

[kwnyc]

There was a triangle (actually a square) of women shitting on women this episode, and they all talked about how they needed HELP each other. This is a time when there was, at most, only ONE woman anything. L. Roy got the nice spot in the newsroom because of shitting on Midge. Sophie and Midge went after each other in front of an audience (and because it's Sophie's show, Midge is out the door again).

And the matchmaker mafia told Rose to get out of town, in no uncertain terms. (I loved them all, especially Jackie Hoffman.)

The mob is also an underlying theme this season. The mob owns Shy, and dictates his career. The mob owns the burlesque club, and Midge is making them mad, by bringing up the club's profile, but they are also intrigued by how much money the club is making. Susie will no doubt have to make good on the "taste" she promised in exchange for her office (and for a Broadway theater for that matter.)

And Lenny...he wasn't owned by anybody. And in a few years' time from 1960, he'll be unbookable at clubs, and be a literal criminal for his work, and end up with a drug habit that kills him. I could sort of understand how freaked out he was when he woke up at Midge's apartment, because he's used to seeing her as his comic/buddy, the one he flirts with and helps, and who doesn't have a real life. 

(And yes, Lenny does/did have a daughter, and she keeps her father's memory alive).

As for Mei, I absolutely think she'll have an abortion. If she can't hook up with a safe one through her med school connections, she can fly to Puerto Rico, which is what people with money did. Will Joel oppose it? I think not. He already has two kids. He loves 'em, but one more would be a lot for a guy who tends to collapse when things get real.

I had no problem with Mei repeating that she is going to be a doctor. She has been fighting for it her whole life, and she DOES have to tell it to herself every day to get out of bed. Joel is on her side with that one, and he will probably admit that she can't be a doctor if she's going to have a baby. I don't see Joel & Midge getting back together as endgame; but Joel/Mei as a couple could be good for both of them.

 

[txhorns79]

2 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

I could sort of understand how freaked out he was when he woke up at Midge's apartment, because he's used to seeing her as his comic/buddy, the one he flirts with and helps, and who doesn't have a real life. 

I understood why he freaked out.  It was like being in some kind of Pepto Bismol-coated Twilight Zone episode.  On their best day, Rose, Abe & Zelda can be very eccentric, and Miriam's apartment looks like something out of a magazine.  It would be a little much to which to wake up.   

[DrSpaceman73]

Thats a good point lots of woman on woman battles this episode and season. Not just the men holding them back. They are fighting each other too

If they did a spinoff based around Lenny Bruce I'd definitely wat h

[tennisgurl]

I can kind of see why L. Roy has taken to blasting Midge as a major part of her brand, the stories pretty much write themselves. There is not a bridge that Midge cannot burn (or explode) in spectacular fashion, a joke that is too tasteless, or a ridiculous situation that she cannot pour gasoline on to make it more ridiculous. Its not nice, but its certainly news worthy in a train wreck kind of way.

Lenny ending up at Midge's house was mostly funny in his complete bafflement at the situation, and sad knowing how his self destructive tendencies end up leading. Its amazing how much he and Midge sparkle even in such a weird awkward situation. 

[Sarah 103]

38 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

The mob owns the burlesque club, and Midge is making them mad, by bringing up the club's profile, but they are also intrigued by how much money the club is making.

That is something I found rather amusing. The mob's big concern was whether or not the club was making money and whether or not the club owner could pay the mob what he owed. Who was buying the drinks and what kind of drinks they were buying was almost irrelevant. As long as the club was earning money, that was the most important thing to the mob. 

[ChlcGal]

19 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't know what the actual intention was.   The whole L. Roy Dunham plot felt like a shaggy dog story that didn't advance the storyline but existed merely for the reveal that L. Roy was a woman.   Also there was a clear trans subtext to the dialogue between Miriam and L. Roy.
 

That aside, I'm not sure a trans actress was the best choice for the part, especially given the rest of the dialogue.
 

I don't know if the showrunners were trying to be cheeky or woke or make a point or what, but we live in times when there is escalating trans-misogyny in our society.  One of the favorite themes of people who find transgender women objectionable is that we are trying to replace cisgender women or deprive them of their chances for success (in high school and college sports, for example).  Another item in the anti-trans PowerPoint is that because we have allegedly benefited from male privilege at some point in our lives, we really cannot understand the hardships women endure socially and professionally, thus making our claim to womanhood shallow and illegitimate.

That's why I cringed when I saw they were using a trans actress to portray the woman who has made it her mission to drag another woman (Miriam) through the mud to further her own career.     I cringed even more when the character played by a trans actress complained about how hard it is to be a woman in journalism and be taken seriously by men.    I can give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt and allow that perhaps it was intended as a wry "fuck you" to the anti-trans tropes I cited above, but I'm not sure it worked.  Depending on one's perspective I think it could just as easily reinforce them.   Miriam wasn't in on any joke.  It wasn't like a nudge-nudge, wink-wink.    She clearly felt harassed and harmed by L.Roy Dunham.

Admittedly I'm close to these matters, but that's how the scene came across to me.  YMMV.

 

 

I so, so, SO thought that L. Roy Dunham was going to be Milo and that the two of them would start a scorchingly hot romance for the final season.

Also: mother fucking Kelly Bishop.  Love it. Love her. 

In regards to Imogene popping up. I don't think I'd like to see her more than we do now.  She's an accent, an unexpected pop (her "skip the bullshit" line at the Tupperware party had me guffawing.) but more Imogene would be too much.

[DrSpaceman73]

I didn't know the actress playing L Roy Dunham is trans and thought it was just Midge didnt realize and was surprised it was a woman writing these things about her. 

[Pallas]

Please be careful where you post. This episode topic is for discussing this episode, not the one prior. Off-topic posts and replies have moved or removed. In future, all off-topic posts will be removed and subject to warnings. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I didn't know the actress playing L Roy Dunham is trans and thought it was just Midge didnt realize and was surprised it was a woman writing these things about her. 

I didn't know either while watching, but I wasn't really surprised when I learned that L. Roy was played by a trans actor. 
I think your initial understanding is correct that Midge was just surprised it was a woman writing unflattering things about her, which kind of works to validate the sexual identity of the actor playing L. Roy.

[Daff]

On 3/7/2022 at 12:42 PM, kwnyc said:

the one he flirts with and helps, and who doesn't have a real life. 

He was vulnerable, and woke up to acceptance and offers of humanity (breakfast and a shower) instead of manhandling and disgust. His ego couldn’t deal with that. 

[chitowngirl]

 

2 hours ago, Daff said:

He was vulnerable, and woke up to acceptance and offers of humanity (breakfast and a shower) instead of manhandling and disgust. His ego couldn’t deal with that. 

 And add in he didn’t know where the hell he was! Midge didn’t show up to give him context for quite some time.

[Luis]

One thing i do not get with Miriam.

Sophie went infront if the public envious that Midge was making them laugh.

So when sophie got there why didntbshe just vowed out? Instead of ruining another opportunity to make money specially as desperate as she is.

She is struggling financially, so all she had to do was to get out and leave sophie there.

Same with Susy, refuse an expensive car gifted to her? Come on in what universe would someone refuse that? Or make a lot of money representing Sophie?

These things really dont make sense, specially as shown that both are struggling financially.

The show is funny, but there are way too many fallacies that make no sense.

[wendyg]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:13 PM, Insert Username said:

Honestly, everyone on this show is an idiot about money.

I have learned over the years: Never try to make sense of the finances on an ASP show.

[SFoster21]

On 3/5/2022 at 1:31 PM, LadyRose said:

It's going to be interesting to see what happens with Mei's pregnancy. I doubt she'll have an abortion. It seems like TV shows these days avoid having characters have abortions. They may think about it, even go to the appointment, but change their minds. 

If she does have an abortion, well, she's a medical student and has connections in her community. She should be able to find a place to get a safe (but still illegal) abortion. Or even a legal one with a proper medical excuse.

Or...she'll have a convenient (for the plot) miscarriage before she and Joel tell anyone about the pregnancy. Or she and Joel will get married and have the child, and the whole situation will be treated heartwarmingly but unrealistically. Moishe and Shirley will be horrified for about 10 seconds, and then Shirley will gush about having yet another grandchild. Mei will find surprisingly convenient child care arrangements, much as Midge has.

I bet Mei and Joel argue for the next two episodes about telling their parents, and at the beginning of Season 5, we find out that Mei had a miscarriage between seasons. 

 

My humble o is that Mei has no child for any reason and that ends her with J.  As a couple, they make zero sense to me.
 

I fail to see why she is living with him.  She is unhappy and paranoid.  What is she gaining?  They seem implausible to me.

as to Midge, she works at night, lives with a Mom and Dad and maid.  She has the help of a non-custodial parent.  There are two other doting grandparents. A TV show like that tapes three a day.  So she would not work every day all day.  Her boy is old enough for nursery school.  YMMV.  
 

 

[luvthepros]

On 3/5/2022 at 2:33 AM, bybrandy said:

Couldn't Suzie send the tv guy to Joel's club?  Is that too outside the right geography?  

Now why didn't Susie think of that?

Edited March 16, 2022 by luvthepros

[janie jones]

On 3/7/2022 at 10:23 AM, Sarah 103 said:

That is something I found rather amusing. The mob's big concern was whether or not the club was making money and whether or not the club owner could pay the mob what he owed. Who was buying the drinks and what kind of drinks they were buying was almost irrelevant. As long as the club was earning money, that was the most important thing to the mob. 

Same. But I was also wondering what was illegal about the club? I assume not the stripping, since one of the strippers was dancing in her bra a few episodes back because her actual costume broke, and so I've been assuming that the pasties are what make it okay? Are they unlicensed? Did they say?

[smartymarty]

I found this episode disjointed and exhausting. Ten minutes of Lenny that it never came back to; 10 of Imogene and the father that it never came back to; 10 of Midge and L. Roy, who I doubt we'll ever see again; a set piece of Rose with the other matchmakers that didn't really resolve (will Rose stop matchmaking, or did she negotiate a territory?); several of those long, quick back-and-forths between two characters that were supposed to be witty but weren't. Susie ignoring that selling Sophie's gifts could bring her some good money; Midge self-sabotaging with Sophie. I'm not an "every episode must advance the plot" person, but this one just sat there. The only new thing was Mei's pregnancy, which my husband called just as she walked into the room. Judging from the comments above on that, nobody is invested in whether she keeps the baby, aborts, or miscarries.

[E Frederick]

what was Lenny Bruce so upset about the night he passed out and Midge took him to sleep it off in her sons room?

[Eri]

I loved this episode if anything because of the scene where Susie is tripping over those golf clubs/the croquet set while trying to look professional. When Dinah was telling her about someone on "line one," Susie just sounded so exasperated by that point. Susie constantly lives in chaos LOL

"I am important Dinah. I'm important"

[bybrandy]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:03 PM, Nicola said:

Why do none of these shows even pretend adoption exists? 

Because in this case it probably doesn't.   I can't and won't speak to all shows and their stance on adoption.   But I think finding a placement for child of mixed Caucasian/Asian descent in the early 1960s is not a guaranteed thing.   The there are more than enough people wanting to adopt is only true in the case of healthy white babies.  That is not the case here.