S04.E03: Everything Is Bellmore

[Pallas]

Midge runs into an old friend at work. Susie finds out she has a close friend. Abe's job gets personal. Rose's matchmaking business draws attention.

[Aulty]

The scene with Midge and the strip club owner - she takes away the cup of coffee (?) because its a safety risk? You'd think the lit cigar to be the more pressing issue.

Otherwise the episode was a lovely and very sad tribute to Jacky. Loved Zelda getting worked up over almost everything; how are they still able to afford her? And great to see Lenny again.
I was on board with Abe's story, and his cape, but I am not sure where they are going with the FBI.

I enjoyed the colourful visuals at the strip club, and Midge trying to sell Tupperware in a sea of pastels.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Aulty

[CinAZ]

It was a nice surprise to see both episodes drop a day early. 
 

I am not feeling the Abe love. I kind of zone out during his scenes. It’s just hard to believe that a man of the 60’s would be ok having his daughter support him and his wife. 

I am happy to see Lenny again. He and Midge have awesome chemistry. It’s too bad they can’t have a happily ever after. I am assuming that her and Joel will eventually get back together. They kind of looked at each other during the family dinner. Aren’t they still married from the drunk Vegas night?

The strip club has potential. I can see Maisel doing stand up there and her slowly becoming a headliner.

[shapeshifter]

Alex Borstein better get all the awards for her speech at the funeral home. 
And the Palladinos for the writing and directing of that scene too.

 

8 hours ago, Aulty said:

...Abe...
I am not sure where they are going with the FBI.

Maybe Tony Shaloub has another gig and their going to ship Abe off to prison for part of the season? I dunnon. 🤷‍♀️

 

 

8 hours ago, Aulty said:

Loved Zelda getting worked up over almost everything; how are they still able to afford her?

Maybe she lives with them and just gets mostly room and board?

 

8 hours ago, Aulty said:

great to see Lenny again.

4 hours ago, CinAZ said:

happy to see Lenny again. He and Midge have awesome chemistry. It’s too bad they can’t have a happily ever after. 

If someone can cast Rachel Brosnahan and Luke Kirby opposite each other in another venture, it would be a guaranteed hit.

 

 

8 hours ago, Aulty said:

I enjoyed the colourful visuals...
Tupperware in a sea of pastels.

I loved that color-of-joy scene too with the Tupperware. 
Nice counterpoint to the focus on death and bad reviews.

Lenny Bruce's standup lesson for Midge was another high note in what could have instead been dreary foreshadowing for the character, given the focus of this episode on the character played by an actor who died of a drug overdose in 2019 (Brian Tarantina).

 

 

[Quilt Fairy]

That was all kinds of classy.

 

At the second strip club finale walk - the one they did real well - was one of the girls wearing tupperware to cover something?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Quilt Fairy

[tennisgurl]

I loved seeing Lenny, he and Midge just spark together, every scene between them is a winner. I love Lenny so much, it sucks so much that history tells us he and Midge don't have a future. Midge at the strip club is more fun then I expected, even if I am not sure this is quite what she is going to want to build her career on. Every set piece is so delightful, so much color, the set designers and costumers do amazing work in every episode. 

Abe's Dracula coat was hilarious. Interesting that he pulled a bit of a Midge, roasting someone he knows and getting massive pushback, I guess that's where Midge gets it. 

Those Tupperware hats were certainly...something. 

Sad that Jackie died, but I really liked learning about the rich life he has had and Suzie's eulogy was great. 

[qtpye]

Did the real actor who played Jackie die? This felt like a tribute to a real person.

This show is a real feast for the eyes and I love it. I do understand why it could be too much for some people.

I was a little let down by Midge's Broadway dress. It seemed too subdued for the even. Usually, Midge's fashions are on point.

Midge's mother is usually very elegant but her cape dress seemed a little too big for her. I fan whanked that she wore it to support her self-absorbed husband. The color did look lovely on the actress.  Joel's parents also looked good.

11 hours ago, CinAZ said:

I am happy to see Lenny again. He and Midge have awesome chemistry. It’s too bad they can’t have a happily ever after. I am assuming that her and Joel will eventually get back together. They kind of looked at each other during the family dinner. Aren’t they still married from the drunk Vegas night?

The chemistry between Midge and Lenny just pops off the screen. He is the only man who can match her in intellect, chutzpah, and wit.

[shapeshifter]

34 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Did the real actor who played Jackie die? This felt like a tribute to a real person.

Yes.

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

the focus of this episode on the character played by an actor who died of a drug overdose in 2019 (Brian Tarantina).

https://deadline.com/2022/02/marvelous-ms-maisel-brian-tarantina-1234960512/

 

[Blakeston]

Were those really the least attractive actresses they could find to play Rose's supposedly grotesque-looking clients?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Blakeston

[Sarah 103]

Maybe it was the box seats in the balcony, but I was expecting Lenny to really heckle Midge like Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show. It was a test and I'd say she passed. Maybe he likes her too much to do something that would really distract her and throw her off her game. This felt very "you only pull the pigtails of the one you love," it's mild.    

[millennium]

Probably the worst episode of the series ... so far.

I wasn't entertained, moved or enlightened.  In fact, I was bored by all the speechifying and static scenes, and especially the prolonged "whose going to take care of Susie" schtick.   After about 35 minutes of unrelenting tedium, I fast forwarded to the last scene at the burlesque club.   That wasn't funny either.  The whole Aristotle bit was paid off -- again -- merely by Midge cursing. 

Tony Shalhoub is tanking this series, IMO.   Enough with Abe and Joel's parents and all the dialogue that seems ripped straight from bad dinner theater.

Kudos to the art direction -- the Tupperware colors were delightful, ditto for the hues of the tea room scene.

[Cramps]

Early in her standup career, Joan Rivers emceed at strip clubs under the name “Pepper January.” Putting Midge at a burlesque show is definitely a nod to that. 
 

Luke Kirby, who plays Lenny Bruce, plays one of the Dads on the new Gossip Girl.  He’s good, but it’s obviously not as magical as his Lenny. When they first showed him in the club this season greeting Midge, I cheered outloud. I’m getting tired of all the parental stuff, but I can never get enough of the Lenny Bruce scenes. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Cramps

[Sakura12]

The chemistry between Midge and Lenny is amazing. It's too bad they can't be together. He really elevates her and makes me like her.

The eulogy for Jacky was nice, I wonder if we'll find out who Darla is. 

[Blakeston]

So Abe was stupid enough to not only mention in a theater review that he burned down a federal building, but also to mention who his partner in crime is?

Well, I guess that makes sense, considering how poor his decisions have been for quite some time.

I don't think I'd even mind if the character was sent to prison, and we didn't hear from him for a while. He's been so obnoxious to so many people (like his Columbia students, and the staff in the Catskills). Being too proud to move in with Midge initially, but not too proud to falsely claim he'd bought the apartment for her, was the last straw for me.

[shapeshifter]

17 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

So Abe was stupid enough to not only mention in a theater review that he burned down a federal building, but also to mention who his partner in crime is?

Abe was being stupid in his efforts to give himself street cred for the times, but, just to be clear, I don't think he burned down a federal building. I think it was more like a self-extinguishing fire in a small metal trash can. Probably didn't even cause smoke damage. Or am I wrong? 
I thought it was like someone burning a draft card in the late 60s during the Vietnam war, if that person's draft lottery number meant they didn't have to go anyway.

[Blakeston]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Abe was being stupid in his efforts to give himself street cred for the times, but, just to be clear, I don't think he burned down a federal building. I think it was more like a self-extinguishing fire in a small metal trash can. Probably didn't even cause smoke damage. Or am I wrong? 
I thought it was like someone burning a draft card in the late 60s during the Vietnam war, if that person's draft lottery number meant they didn't have to go anyway.

That makes sense - Jason Alexander didn't specifically say "burned down." I haven't seen episode 4 yet, so if anything was revealed about it there, I'm not privy to it.

[cdnalor]

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Were those really the least attractive actresses they could find to play Rose's supposedly grotesque-looking clients?

We're talking NYC in 1960, home to model agencies and television production.  Men were probably looking for Barbara Eden types and not so much leaning towards Imogene Coca.   

[Clanstarling]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Alex Borstein better get all the awards for her speech at the funeral home. 
And the Palladinos for the writing and directing of that scene too.

Alex was wonderful in that scene. She does deserve all the awards. It was the best scene in the episode. Very moving.

I thought this episode was better than the last two, and hopefully they'll continue to get better. I'm just hoping this doesn't go the Gilmore Girls route (which in my opinion started tanking when everyone became insufferable)

 

[Zonk]

Uh oh, I'm afraid Buzz just outed himself. Because we know what "dramaturg and roommate" means, it also means that everybody knew in the time this show was set. Guess his career is ruined and he'll be an outcast from society. If only he hadn't outed himself so clearly and unmistakeably!

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

Uh oh, I'm afraid Buzz just outed himself. Because we know what "dramaturg and roommate" means, it also means that everybody knew in the time this show was set. Guess his career is ruined and he'll be an outcast from society. If only he hadn't outed himself so clearly and unmistakeably!

Sarcasm, right?

[cerealboxkilla]

Yeah, I'm done. This season is just treading water now and it's starting to feel repetitive. I had a similar issue with Better Call Saul, which was also a critically acclaimed show that was good (great acting, interesting characters) but never went anywhere, even though the whole point of the show was about the inevitable rise of the main character.

The allure of Ms. Maisel for me was always the trajectory of Midge and Susie. To drag everyone back to how it was in season 1/2 feels like they just wasted everybody's time. The show is even making fun of itself at this point with the whole, "Oh, Midge is arrested again! Remember when we did that before?" This episode in particular was largely filler, with the only meaningful plot point being Midge performing at a burlesque house. It's possible all these loose ends could all tie together at the end, but I'm not counting on it.

[Sarah 103]

6 hours ago, Lake Erie Lass said:

Did anyone else think Lenny looked a lot thinner in Season 4 than when we last saw him?

Not sure whether his suits were roomier before, this season’s one was more fitted, if they’re alluding to drug use, or it’s just a coincidence

I think they are showing changes in fashion. Not everyone wears the latest styles/trends. Men's suits in the 1950s were big and boxy (a look that came back in the 1990s), then in the 1960s the trend went to narrow and more fitted (which made a comeback in the 1980s). 

[millennium]

6 hours ago, Lake Erie Lass said:

Also, am so very tired of all the scenes with Abe. I don’t mind the family scenes in general, but giving him full story lines like his jealousy of Jason Alexander’s character and the FBI feels like the writers are grasping at straws. Keep the focus on the younger characters, please!

Also the whole Steiner play/church condemnation. Too much Abe this season.

I wonder if it's part of Tony Shalhoub's contract that X-amount of scenes must feature Abe, that he gets his own storylines, etc.  Sometimes it feels that Abe/Shalhoub believes the show is really about him. 

[qtpye]

17 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Were those really the least attractive actresses they could find to play Rose's supposedly grotesque-looking clients?

Yes, Hollywood's version of unattractive women is truly alarming. It was obvious that the "Gorgon" was just stooping and did not have spine issues, which is kind of insulting.

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

So Abe was stupid enough to not only mention in a theater review that he burned down a federal building, but also to mention who his partner in crime is?

Well, I guess that makes sense, considering how poor his decisions have been for quite some time.

I don't think I'd even mind if the character was sent to prison, and we didn't hear from him for a while. He's been so obnoxious to so many people (like his Columbia students, and the staff in the Catskills). Being too proud to move in with Midge initially, but not too proud to falsely claim he'd bought the apartment for her, was the last straw for me.

 

34 minutes ago, millennium said:

I wonder if it's part of Tony Shalhoub's contract that X-amount of scenes must feature Abe, that he gets his own storylines, etc.  Sometimes it feels that Abe/Shalhoub believes the show is really about him. 

Lord, I am really starting to hate Abe with a passion. 

I really have no idea how his wife stands him.

[tennisgurl]

I hope that they plan on doing more with the strip club manager, seems like a waste to hire Santino Fontana for such a minor role. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by tennisgurl

[kwnyc]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I hope that they plan on doing more with the strip club manager, seems like a waste to hire Santino Fontsna for such a minor role. 

Hear, hear! I recognized him and expect he will have a larger role this season. He BETTER!

One thing I realized is that The Weissmans had no problem with Susie when Midge brought her home, and let her grieve. And Rose even showed some kindness by ordering her an entire bowl of whipped cream. Zelda is a saint.

Lenny keeps giving Midge important lessons: it IS the Bellmore, and you have to have the focus to keep going, no matter what the audience does. Midge does seem to be keeping to her ambition to do things HER way, and is trying to both bring up and include the strippers with her. She DOES have a very clear idea of the way society treats women over men, and is on the money AND gets people to laugh.

And HEY, how about Imogene at the Tupperware party? She's going to be a helluva businesswoman.

 

[kittykat]

Yeah sorry with the exception of Lenny's return and the funeral, this episode was annoying.  As someone who watched the best and worst of Gilmore Girls is was like Daniel Palladino was firing on his worst impulses.  

The synagogue scene with everyone making it about Abe went on three minutes too long and made me groan the whole time.  It was like a bad town meeting scene with Abe as Luke and the rabbi as Taylor.

Susie's speech about Jackie was great but still found it in bad taste to crash someone else's funeral to make a point.  Still I hope Susie learns something from this. 

It's really saying something when Midge is the best behaved person in this episode.  I did like how she supported both Imogene and Susie and made some fair points about how the burlesque club is run.

[chessiegal]

I really enjoyed this episode. Colors and costumes are fabulous. I'm fascinated with Midge's apartment. I've never been in a living space with a long hallway with rooms off of both sides.

The Tupperware party took me down memory lane. I remember sitting on the stairs with my best friend watching as her mother was hosting a party in the 60s. Don't remember Tupperware hats, but it was quite the event. I love Tupperware. I threw a party in the early 80s, and still have many pieces. It also cracked me up that there is an episode of Monk where he is extolling the virtues of Tupperware.

Love the strip club scenes - being reminded that pasties on the nipples were to keep within nudity laws of the time.

[gorgy]

I enjoyed this episode more than the first two, but I watched those two back-to-back, so it was kinda hazy. I also just finished helping my mother pick out a dress for her to wear to my aunt's funeral, so the funeral scene with Jackie and all that hit me a little harder than it normally would, I imagine. 

• There was a nod to Gilmore Girls where Suzie was walking down the street right before entering her apartment, and "My Little Corner of The World" was playing. That song played at the end of the pilot and last episode of Gilmore Girls where it was just Lorelai and Rory enjoying their time together. I guess Jackie and Suzie were their own pseudo-family (albeit slightly more dysfunctional)
• How old is Midge and Joel's son supposed to be? Like I get child actors play younger, but he seems awfully big for his age. I assume he's like six or seven in the show, but he could be ten in real life.
• The whole strip club subplot feels kinda one-note at this point. I guess it helps limit set pieces since this whole thing was shot during covid times, so traveling would have been an issue for shooting, possibly. To me, it feels like the whole season so far has an intangible heaviness that earlier seasons didn't have. I get why, but it is perceivable.
• I don't pay all that much heed to Midge's parents because I find both of them rather odious, but Joel's parents have yet to wear out their welcome with me. 
• With Midge anchored to the strip club, and Jackie M.I.A., maybe Suzie will be more hands on at The Gaslight, which could lead to some character growth for her.

Edited February 27, 2022 by gorgy
clarity

[Armchair Critic]

I am only halfway through the episode but I had to stop it and say there is no way Susie would get away with swearing that much in public in that time period.

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I am only halfway through the episode but I had to stop it and say there is no way Susie would get away with swearing that much in public in that time period.

It was considered low class for sure, but unless you were doing it on stage there weren't many ramifications. (speaking as one who grew up in a family of potty mouths of that era).

And it's not like Susie grew up in a high class setting - Midge's potty mouth (on and off stage) is more "shocking" given she did.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Clanstarling

[kwnyc]

19 hours ago, gorgy said:

How old is Midge and Joel's son supposed to be? Like I get child actors play younger, but he seems awfully big for his age. I assume he's like six or seven in the show, but he could be ten in real life.

That child is HUGE. With the delays in filming the seasons, the kid actually could be 10!

[Nicola]

The potential combination of Rose and Suzie at a tea room was wonderful but it was badly overplayed with her kicking the table and coloring like a child. Missed opportunity. The whipped cream was great.

I really hate the return of Lenny Bruce, at least the way they show him thinking Midge is amazing. It was interesting for an ep or two but to have him constantly making puppy eyes at her is ridiculous.

Suzie's speech was well-acted but I couldn't get past how she crashed another human being's funeral. Now that whole family has to live with that memory for the rest of their lives. It made for good TV but I could have immersed myself better if she'd, for example, interrupted the ocarina band or made a solo speech at the Gaslight. I just really hate it when writers equate hurting innocent bystanders as Epic and Speaking My Truth. 

Also Midge is a shit mother. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Nicola

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, Nicola said:

The potential combination of Rose and Suzie at a tea room was wonderful but it was badly overplayed with her kicking the table and coloring like a child. Missed opportunity. The whipped cream was great.

I wonder if Susie was supposed to share the table with Rose, or at least be adjacent, if not for Covid restrictions? 
I can imagine Rose amusingly side-eyeing Susie more had they been closer.

I think I may have to buy some whipped cream next time I'm at the store.

[HouseofBeck]

I am turning to fanfiction to soothe my not-so-latent desire to have Midge and Lenny get together because damn, their chemistry sizzles even when he's organizing straw-throwing. 

I loved Susie and the tea room, I don't know why, but it just was hilarious to me. Maybe more so because of all the emotional gut-punches in other scenes. 

Abe is insufferable, but always seems to land on his feet somehow...

[pasdetrois]

On 2/27/2022 at 3:47 AM, Armchair Critic said:

there is no way Susie would get away with swearing that much in public in that time period.

The lazy reliance on endless profanity instead of great dialogue annoys me. And the show beats us over the head with each idea (Midge bumping into her bedroom furniture). Love him, but too much Shaloub.

Why is Rose wearing so many "pregnancy" jackets and blouses? Those big roomy things?

The actress who plays Mei is terrible - so uncomfortable with her dialogue and moving her body around the sets.

I do laugh at Shirley's foghorn rasping out in so many scenes.

I am enjoying Susie's arc this season.

Mrs. Maisal still my least favorite character.

Edited February 28, 2022 by pasdetrois

[Nicola]

1 hour ago, pasdetrois said:

And the show beats us over the head with each idea (Midge bumping into her bedroom furniture).

Right?! This happens constantly. Funny idea/concept, but then it goes on five minutes too long.

[Clanstarling]

6 minutes ago, Nicola said:

Right?! This happens constantly. Funny idea/concept, but then it goes on five minutes too long.

Maisel isn't the only show that does that, many seem to fall in love with their jokes and don't move on as quickly as they should. I mean, the tight five/ten applies to television comedies as well, in my opinion.

[desertflower]

3 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

The lazy reliance on endless profanity instead of great dialogue annoys me.

Thank you, I agree. I don’t consider myself an uppity person and I don’t faint at the sound of the f word, but they overuse it so much on this show and it’s so incredibly unnecessary. These people are masters at writing fast paced, witty dialogue, and they absolutely do not need to drown it all out with endless f bombs. Ok, gonna go yell at some kids to get off my lawn now. 
PS: I can’t look away when Lenny is onscreen. He’s magic. 

[Nicola]

On 2/28/2022 at 3:06 PM, desertflower said:

Thank you, I agree. I don’t consider myself an uppity person and I don’t faint at the sound of the f word, but they overuse it so much on this show and it’s so incredibly unnecessary. 

I think that's a good point. There was a good example of this in the funeral scene. Suzie whisper-screaming "What. The FUCK." at Chester when she saw him in the other room was hilarious, but the multiple bombs during the speech was just cringe and distracting. 

Religion nitpick: I know it's a trope to have "the funeral home scene," but that's not how Catholics do it, at least in this period. We do use funeral homes, but that's for the wake/receiving line only, and there might be a few prayers, but that's just at the very end when the casket is closed and you're headed to the church for the funeral Mass. (More and more, people are combining the wake and the Mass in one event at the church, but even then, the wake is just a receiving line.) There's nothing like portrayed in the show where people get up and talk, especially at the funeral home. A practicing Catholic, particularly in 1960, would have a full-on Mass in the church even if it was just his sister and the priest. And if Jackie really was that active in the parish, he had a built-in community (whether he wanted one or not!) and SOMEbody would have been at that Mass, even if it's a handful of ladies from the Rosary Guild doing their Christian duty. Parishes pre-Vatican II were very active communities and social centers. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Nicola

[Zonk]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:10 PM, shapeshifter said:

Sarcasm, right?

People keep insisting that Midge outed Shy at the Apollo. When in reality all she did was talk about how flamboyant he was and everybody already knew that. It's now been weeks or months since the Apollo, we've not heard about any news articles that speculate about his sexuality or anything like it. Only thing we saw was that he got engaged to his beard and nobody questioned it.

Some just can't help but see what Midge said through a modern lense, when back then nobody would have gotten it. Still they act like she said "That Shy, boy he sure likes sucking dick and taking it up the ass!"

Same thing, from todays perspective we know that Buzz's roommate is not just his roommate. Not with the special thanks and how those two looked at each other (plus the musical theater). But back then nobody would have gotten it.

So yes, I may have gotten a bit sarcastic there...

On 2/26/2022 at 11:39 PM, tennisgurl said:

I hope that they plan on doing more with the strip club manager, seems like a waste to hire Santino Fontana for such a minor role. 

I assume he's going to be a love interest for Midge.

On 2/27/2022 at 6:14 AM, gorgy said:

How old is Midge and Joel's son supposed to be? Like I get child actors play younger, but he seems awfully big for his age. I assume he's like six or seven in the show, but he could be ten in real life.

The IMDB bio of the twins playing him says they are 8 years old. Of course I can't say for sure when that was written, but that seems about right. 10 year olds would be bigger.

[LadyRose]

On 2/26/2022 at 7:36 PM, kittykat said:

The synagogue scene with everyone making it about Abe went on three minutes too long and made me groan the whole time.  It was like a bad town meeting scene with Abe as Luke and the rabbi as Taylor.

Aarrgghh!!! You're so right! Maisel is slowly turning into Gilmore Girls. Noooo!!! I hated those town meeting scenes and the insufferable characters (almost everyone). One thing I liked about the first three seasons of Maisel was that for the most part, it wasn't a GG clone. The scene in Season One where Rose passive- aggressively disapproves of Midge's job at B. Altman was dangerously close to an Emily Gilmore redux, but Rose is generally warmer than Emily.  Bunheads became a GG clone almost immediately; Kelly Bishop's character was Emily Gilmore in a leotard, and other GG actors quickly joined the cast, more or less reprising their roles. I was afraid Liza Weil would turn out to be another Paris in Season Three of Maisel, but to my relief, she didn't. Kelly Bishop will be appearing sometime in Season Four. If she turns out to be a third version of Emily...just, no. 

[Blakeston]

17 hours ago, Zonk said:

People keep insisting that Midge outed Shy at the Apollo. When in reality all she did was talk about how flamboyant he was and everybody already knew that. It's now been weeks or months since the Apollo, we've not heard about any news articles that speculate about his sexuality or anything like it. Only thing we saw was that he got engaged to his beard and nobody questioned it.

Some just can't help but see what Midge said through a modern lense, when back then nobody would have gotten it. Still they act like she said "That Shy, boy he sure likes sucking dick and taking it up the ass!"

I haven't seen anyone say that Midge fully outed Shy. The issue is that announcing to a crowd that a man is a fussy diva who wears women's shoes, when you know he's closeted, was a really crappy thing to do back then. And it leads to rumors and whispers that can lead to the guy being outed.

Most people in the audience wouldn't have assumed he was gay, but any gay people in the audience would almost certainly have started questioning his sexuality. Susie knew the score once she heard "Judy Garland shoes," so why wouldn't they?

We know nothing about what life was like for Shy after Midge's set one way or another, except that he felt the need to get married to a woman, which would suggest that he felt threatened by it. But just because he didn't lose his career doesn't mean that Midge didn't cross a huge line.

[Sarah 103]

21 hours ago, Zonk said:

Same thing, from todays perspective we know that Buzz's roommate is not just his roommate. Not with the special thanks and how those two looked at each other (plus the musical theater). But back then nobody would have gotten it.

Theater insiders in the audience would have gotten it almost instantly if they didn't know already. They had gaydar. Most of the "Steiner family" there to support him probably had no clue Buzz was gay and probably didn't figure it out.  

4 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Most people in the audience wouldn't have assumed he was gay, but any gay people in the audience would almost certainly have started questioning his sexuality. Susie knew the score once she heard "Judy Garland shoes," so why wouldn't they?

Susie lives in the Village and has been in the entertainment industry, at least the fringes of it for years. She would have had gaydar and be aware of the codes used. Most people in the audience would not have gaydar or been aware of the codes.

[Pallas]

Please keep your posts on topic: events and characters in this episode. Discussion about Midge's set at the Apollo belongs in the episode topic for S03.E08, or in the topic for S04.E01. 

[Daff]

On 2/27/2022 at 8:38 PM, Nicola said:

Also Midge is a shit mother.

We all recognize this by today’s standards, but, she’s pretty typical for the times. “Leave It To Beaver”, “Father Knows Best”, and “Donna Reed” households weren’t really the norm back then. Kids were just there, and parents pretty much felt that if they fed, clothed them, and provided a roof over their heads, the job was done. Having to attend to any emotional needs was problematic and annoying. The whole debate over schools was more for prestige, than about what was best for the kids. Guess that’s why those shows enjoyed the popularity they did. 

[Nicola]

But it seemed like Zelda was doing a lot of caretaking, and Midge wasn't even doing a lot of feeding/cleaning? That's what caught my eye. It seems pretty Victorian.

[Daff]

2 hours ago, Nicola said:

But it seemed like Zelda was doing a lot of caretaking, and Midge wasn't even doing a lot of feeding/cleaning? That's what caught my eye. It seems pretty Victorian.

Yes, you’re right. And I’m sure it was exactly that way for those who had the means. In typical middle class families, from the 50s to the 70s, children were pretty much “free range”. I’m quite convinced the end of that has brought about a general downturn in the abilities for critical thinking, common logic, and problem solving. 

[Clanstarling]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:44 AM, Daff said:

We all recognize this by today’s standards, but, she’s pretty typical for the times. “Leave It To Beaver”, “Father Knows Best”, and “Donna Reed” households weren’t really the norm back then. Kids were just there, and parents pretty much felt that if they fed, clothed them, and provided a roof over their heads, the job was done. Having to attend to any emotional needs was problematic and annoying. The whole debate over schools was more for prestige, than about what was best for the kids. Guess that’s why those shows enjoyed the popularity they did. 

Being someone who was Midge's kids age at that time, this does not reflect anything I saw around me. Yes, the main duty of parenting was feeding, clothing, and housing. But duty is different than love and affection - and we haven't really seen much of that for her children when it comes to Midge. To be fair, we don't really see a lot of in the show at all.  The strongest statement of love I've seen so far is Suzie's tribute to Jackie.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Being someone who was Midge's kids age at that time, this does not reflect anything I saw around me. Yes, the main duty of parenting was feeding, clothing, and housing. But duty is different than love and affection - and we haven't really seen much of that for her children when it comes to Midge. To be fair, we don't really see a lot of in the show at all.  The strongest statement of love I've seen so far is Suzie's tribute to Jackie.

I too was Midge's kids' age at the time; my family was also of similar cultural background to the Maisels.
But I recall love/affection being shown mostly through gifts, money, opportunities, and affirmations of my esteem in the world, rather than by terms of endearment or physical demonstrations.
Maybe that's why there is a Mr. Clanstarling in your nest, but Mr. shapeshifter flew the coop 30 years ago and has not been replaced. 
But if my Dad made a bad financial decision on par with Abe's, Dad would have done whatever was necessary to provide financially–—when we were kids, at least; after college we were on our own.
Both Abe and my father would have grown up during The Great Depression, but Abe's family was seemingly unscathed, which might explain why Abe doesn't seem to have a realization of how easily a family can fall from middle class.
So I think the different attitudes we see in this show towards parenting are as much a reflection of how many generations the parents are removed from the Immigration Experience as they reflect the parents being from a particular decade–—if that makes sense?

Edited March 3, 2022 by shapeshifter