S04.E02: Billy Jones and the Orgy Lamps

[Pallas]

Midge has Abe and Rose over for dinner. Shirley tries to find Joel a new wife. An unexpected cab ride leads to new opportunities.

[shapeshifter]

With all the Shy Baldwin mentions, I wonder if he'll come crawling back to cry on her shoulder about something like how the person he married didn't know she was his beard or something.

But we're really looking forward to the return of Luke Kirby as Lenny Bruce, right?–—even if with a bit of dread. 

Most appreciated episode 2 bit: Final lines of dialogue between Midge and her dad. 

But the biggest hint of What's Next is that Midge wants to (I guess?) be the comic in the burlesque club–—likely because she thinks it should be a female comic?
But would it be another one night stands because she's too progressive?
I got the impression it could be something else, like maybe:

Spoiler

Joel has to leave the Chinatown club because Mei's family doesn't approve of anything about him (his ostentatious success, his sleeping with Mei, his race, his religion, etc.) so Midge gets him to buy the burlesque club which gives her a steady gig and allows Joel to have his relationship with Mei as long as it lasts, be it forever or for nevermore. 

Loved the hat.

 

ETA: Harry advising Susie to get more clients can't be a throwaway line. 
Maybe Alfie (Gideon Glick) the magician who Susie loves to hate?

Edited February 18, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Aulty]

I am glad this time round we're only getting 2 episodes a week. Based on the first couple of episodes, which did very little for me, I'd have skipped throught most of the rest of the season. I understand why so many of the reviews for this season were only lukewarm.

Joel, the knight in shining armor is wearing a bit thing. And him still calling Midge his wife, while his gf sleeps in the other room. I really enjoy the dynamic between him and Mei and the rest of her family/his landlosts QUESTIONMARK. And the bouncer.

By all means, make Midge the comedy madame of the burlesque club. It'll probably take the return of Lenny to then get her out of there and zip her right back into the proper spotlight.
Anyone else think Midge's speech about her being better when she is riffing was a bit cocky? Surely you need to be able to do both if you want the occasional TV gig?

Last but not least: that insurance fraud story with Suzie and her sister was just to deny her the cheque for one episode? I don't know where I stand on her sister basically getting herself a new life off blowing the insurance guy, but the telephone call was amusing.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Aulty

[HouseofBeck]

I am so loving that this show is back. So many gems of moments. 

Right now I am here with a call to the universe: That gorgeous blue outfit Midge was wearing when her dad woke her up with the typewriter—I need it, whatever it is called (nightie and robe? Something more dashing-sounding for the era?), and in whatever shade of blue that is. Deep turquoise? Cerulean??

[Eureka]

11 hours ago, HouseofBeck said:

I am so loving that this show is back. So many gems of moments. 

Right now I am here with a call to the universe: That gorgeous blue outfit Midge was wearing when her dad woke her up with the typewriter—I need it, whatever it is called (nightie and robe? Something more dashing-sounding for the era?), and in whatever shade of blue that is. Deep turquoise? Cerulean??

I said to my husband that her pink pjs she was wearing when they slept at the bar were cuter than any of my real clothes!

[Ms Lark]

11 hours ago, HouseofBeck said:

Right now I am here with a call to the universe: That gorgeous blue outfit Midge was wearing when her dad woke her up with the typewriter—I need it, whatever it is called (nightie and robe? Something more dashing-sounding for the era?), and in whatever shade of blue that is. Deep turquoise? Cerulean??

The robe is called a peignoir and the nightie is a negligee. They usually come as a set, but are fairly passe. My mom had a few back in the day. I never cared for 'em. Too fussy, too scratchy (nylon or another synthetic). For the times, the color was probably dark aqua or turquoise. I'd call it teal these days.  Also, IIRC, they rarely came with a belt, I think that was added to show off her shape.

[shapeshifter]

21 minutes ago, Ms Lark said:

The robe is called a peignoir and the nightie is a negligee. They usually come as a set, but are fairly passe. My mom had a few back in the day. I never cared for 'em. Too fussy, too scratchy (nylon or another synthetic). For the times, the color was probably dark aqua or turquoise. I'd call it teal these days.  Also, IIRC, they rarely came with a belt, I think that was added to show off her shape.

Taking my reply to the "Marvelous Costumes: The Wardrobe is an Act All Its Own" thread:

 

[cdnalor]

I love how the movers stopped in their tracks at the mention of orgy lamps.

So Midge thinks she can do her progressive act in a strip club?  Maybe if they can get her in a G-string and pasties.  Um, I'd be okay with that.

Poor Abe, getting a job he loves but getting paid a pittance for it.  I think he may have a tough choice to make in a future episode.

I have to say, this time period (early 60s) is one of my favorites, when the culture started to loosen up but before it went dark with assassinations and riots.  Everything seems so bright and colorful even when things aren't going that well.  Kudos to wardrobe and set designers!

[kwnyc]

Midge seems to take one step forward/two steps back, or recently, one step backward, two more steps.

She has recreated the comfortable but restricting home she had before her divorce...and found a way to give away even more of her own power by letting her parents take credit for buying the apartment back. She has to acknowledge she's never going to be Young Mrs. Maisel with the briskets and the rabbi over for dinner again.

Imogene is definitely a true friend: helping Midge get her stuff out of storage, standing up to Archie...has she finished secretarial school? Not all women's power shifts were as loud is Midge's!

It seems inevitable that Joel will end up hosting comedy nights, and GOOD comedy nights. The fact that Midge knew EVERY JOKE of the comics at the club they got thrown out of shows that she has spent time observing others and honing her craft. Burlesque was on its last legs in the early '60s, so Midge could end up as a MC of some sort of weird hybrid of burlesque, performance, experimental theater house. (Off-off Broadway was beginning to burst on the scene around this time, though it was mostly in the Village).

It doesn't surprise me that Joel is doing well as a club owner, it's a natural fit (and his father actually gave him good advice about being a businessman). But being a club owner (at least then) also meant being connected, in this case to the Chinese mob.

The other woman character who is in her own power struggle to be who she wants to be is Mei: she's in med school, right? Joel definitely has a type, and I really hope the endgame of the show isn't to have Joel & Midge get back together. He & Mei are a good fit, and if Midge can't end up with a doctor, at least Joel can!

One "off" moment for me was Mom Maisel presenting Joel with a pregnant woman as his possible next wife. There's no way a single pregnant woman would be teaching in 1960. Or even a married pregnant woman...she would have been let go as soon as her pregnancy started to show. 

Since it's been officially announced that

next season will be the show's last, I expect that the showrunners are planting the seeds for the end of the characters' arcs about now.

One of my favorite moments of the entire series so far was when Midge & her father bonded over drinks and the fact that they both finding creative fulfillment in their work, but it's damn hard to make everything else work. I somehow think Papa is going to be key in Midge's eventual success.

Edited February 19, 2022 by kwnyc
Editing, spoiler.

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

One "off" moment for me was Mom Maisel presenting Joel with a pregnant woman as his possible next wife. There's no way a single pregnant woman would be teaching in 1960. Or even a married pregnant woman...she would have been let go as soon as her pregnancy started to show. 

Actually I recall my 1st grade teacher leaving because she was having a baby, and I'm 99% sure she was showing quite a bit. That would have been in 1960 too. This was in Cheshire, Connecticut. Maybe it took a while to find a replacement? 
Anyhow, did they say the pregnant widow was still teaching? 

[kwnyc]

She seemed to refer to it in the present tense. (And was she a widow? I didn't catch that part.) Maybe NYC public schools had different rules. I'll bet most of the teachers in the system then were women, and they probably needed to keep the good ones.

[jrzy]

28 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Actually I recall my 1st grade teacher leaving because she was having a baby, and I'm 99% sure she was showing quite a bit. That would have been in 1960 too. This was in Cheshire, Connecticut. Maybe it took a while to find a replacement? 
Anyhow, did they say the pregnant widow was still teaching? 

That rang so false to me too,  no way would Joel's mother try to fix him up with a pregnant girl, and no way would she be working.

We don't know her background, but if it was an out of wedlock,  she would be unfortunatly shunned by "polite" society.

 

[chitowngirl]

At first I thought that since Abe was writing reviews, he was writing the bad ones for Midge. But perhaps he’s going to be the one to give good publicity for her endeavors….

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, kwnyc said:

She seemed to refer to it in the present tense. (And was she a widow? I didn't catch that part.)

If the pregnant schoolteacher referred to her profession in the present tense, my mind probably interpreted that to mean she intends to return to teaching--which is a more 21st century interpretation, but the writers of this series have done that too at times.

Putting this👇 in spoiler tags because I recall it from a preview I saw before the season premiere, but if it was included in this episode's corresponding scene, I missed it, so it may have been cut:

Spoiler

When Joel excuses himself at the dinner table with the pregnant woman and then goes to confront his mother in the kitchen about the woman his mother has set him up with being a pregnant divorceé, Joel's mother retorts with something like "She's not a divorceé; she's a widow."  

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Armchair Critic]

So did Midge and Joel get their quickie Vegas marriage annulled? 

[Sarah 103]

On 2/18/2022 at 1:24 PM, shapeshifter said:

But we're really looking forward to the return of Luke Kirby as Lenny Bruce, right?–—even if with a bit of dread. 

No dread here, just really looking forward to it. This season is very clearly set in 1960 and things don't really go south for him in a major way until 1964. My guess is the series will end long before we get to the point in time when Lenny Bruce's career and life went horribly wrong. 

Overall, I really enjoyed this episode. I thought it did an excellent job of setting up the season and giving an indication of where the characters may be headed. I can't wait to see Midge do a comedy set at the strip club. 

 

[Darian]

I'm out. I've found Midge progressively insufferable but outing Shy in the 60s and forcing him into a sham marriage that his bride may nor may not be aware is not what he would prefer and instead of feeling a bit of remorse, cries victim some more. Leaving her on the tarmac was better than she deserved and something she could have learned from. But she just keeps stiffing hardworking merchants to live in luxury. Those poor women who had to listen to her act in prison. Again, walking out without at least being told to STFU is something she should be grateful for. I hate her too much to watch for the fashion and occasional actually funny line from her. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If the pregnant schoolteacher referred to her profession in the present tense, my mind probably interpreted that to mean she intends to return to teaching--which is a more 21st century interpretation, but the writers of this series have done that too at times.

Putting this👇 in spoiler tags because I recall it from a preview I saw before the season premiere, but if it was included in this episode's corresponding scene, I missed it, so it may have been cut:

  Reveal spoiler

When Joel excuses himself at the dinner table with the pregnant woman and then goes to confront his mother in the kitchen about the woman his mother has set him up with being a pregnant divorceé, Joel's mother retorts with something like "She's not a divorceé; she's a widow."  

 

That’s where my mind went as well. 
 

Even in 1960s there were school administrators who thought the policy against visibly  pregnancy teachers was silly and looked the other way, and didn’t require pregnant women to quit. 

[whiporee]

51 minutes ago, Darian said:

I'm out. I've found Midge progressively insufferable but outing Shy in the 60s and forcing him into a sham marriage that his bride may nor may not be aware is not what he would prefer and instead of feeling a bit of remorse, cries victim some more. Leaving her on the tarmac was better than she deserved and something she could have learned from. But she just keeps stiffing hardworking merchants to live in luxury. Those poor women who had to listen to her act in prison. Again, walking out without at least being told to STFU is something she should be grateful for. I hate her too much to watch for the fashion and occasional actually funny line from her. 

Okay. Hold up here. You may not like the character of Midge, but we need to be clear on things, even fictional ones. Midge in no way, no how FORCED Shy into any kind of marriage. He's a grown man with grown choices, and he made the choice to marry Monica. My guess is that if it's ever dealt with at all, it's more a factor of him trying to convert than having a beard. But to say Midge made him do it? By telling a few jokes that might -- MIGHT -- be interpreted as insinuating he's gay, that's just over the line in abandoning personal responsibility. 

Here are the facts: Shy picked up a guy, and picked up the kind of guy who would beat him up. That's on Shy. Midge tried to help him -- helped him get ready for his show, gave up her own slot to do it. She tried to help. He paused the tour she was on -- the one she had planned her life around -- so he could "recover." And then, she went to the Apollo with her regular set, and Shy's manager told her to make fun of him. That's on Reggie. The only thing Midge is guilty of is a joke or two, poking fun at a celebrity. She didn't out him -- she didn't say "Hey, did you know Shy likes to screw men?" she made fun of his wardrobe, said he cared about it as much as a woman does. 

And Shy wrecked her life for that. For a couple of jokes from a comedienne. He could have arranged a cover story instead of just dumping her from the tour -- which, BTW, he apparently had already put in place. But instead he arranged for her to plan to leave, then left her on the tarmac and THEN LEAKED IT in order to embarrass her. And yet he's the victim? 

[Darian]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

Okay. Hold up here. You may not like the character of Midge, but we need to be clear on things, even fictional ones. Midge in no way, no how FORCED Shy into any kind of marriage. He's a grown man with grown choices, and he made the choice to marry Monica.   

No, I don't need to hold on, and I am quite clear about the situation. My comment stands, as is. I am old enough to remember even a few years later what that set would have done to a gay man's life.  And she knew that, too, but she's the most self-centered, selfish person currently on TV. There's a reason I started advocating my freshman year of high school for what we then called gay rights. That was in the 70s. She quite literally could have gotten him killed. That's not hyperbole. 

[millennium]

6 hours ago, Darian said:

She quite literally could have gotten him killed. That's not hyperbole. 

Shy quite literally could have gotten himself killed by picking up some rando who beat him.   Shy seems self destructive.   He lives in the closet but seeks out the spotlight, inviting the kind of public scrutiny he dreads.   He wants the world to regard him as straight but the minute he thinks nobody's looking he's out the door cruising strangers.  He's gay but goes on TV to announce his engagement to a woman.

Shy gets zero sympathy from me, especially after how he tried to destroy Midge's career.  He didn't even have the balls to do it to her face.

[Darian]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

Shy quite literally could have gotten himself killed by picking up some rando who beat him.  

Yes, he did something risky, because he had the same needs and desires most people have. That people like Midge didn't have to hide. But she knew why he didn't want it made public. He trusted her to keep his secret so I guess he takes all the blame for that, too. Teflon Midge. And I guess he could have been celibate forever and never, ever taken a risk, and I know some people have so sympathy for him not doing that. But Midge is such a poor comedian that she couldn't make fun of Shy without outing him and her career was more important to her than his safety and trust and livelihood. It's still harder for Black gay man in today's world, but then? Of course he had to do something to protect himself. And all she does is feel sorry for herself, no remorse, no self-reflection. Then she wants everything she wants, even if she steals from neighbors or cheats people who have far less than she does. But, yeah, cute clothes. Her life isn't wrecked, as has been said. I mean, a lot of people would have loved a life that ruined. But his could have been. I didn't tell anyone to stop watching the show. I just can't stomach a main character so completely selfish, so this was my last episode. 

[whiporee]

13 hours ago, Darian said:

No, I don't need to hold on, and I am quite clear about the situation. My comment stands, as is. I am old enough to remember even a few years later what that set would have done to a gay man's life.  And she knew that, too, but she's the most self-centered, selfish person currently on TV. There's a reason I started advocating my freshman year of high school for what we then called gay rights. That was in the 70s. She quite literally could have gotten him killed. That's not hyperbole. 

If you were a high school freshman in the '70s, we're within a decade of each other -- I was a freshman in '79. My recollection of the gay rights issues then mostly concerned sodomy laws, Gay Bob and Jodie Dallas. But you may have a different memories as you were apparently more active in these things at 14 than I was.

However, since I didn't remember were widescale murders of performers for the hint of their sexuality, I did a little research. Little Richard was arrested in Georgia for homosexual acts in 1955 -- actually a threesome in a car -- and spent three days in jail. Not murdered. He actually said that appearing more effeminate helped his career by making him less threatening to white audiences, as he was not after white women (paraphrasing his words, not mine). Johnny Mathis, on whom Shy is most-closely modeled, had the same balance of sanitized masculinity as Shy has. Mathis never married, and whenever anyone was unmarried, those types of insinuations were made. He came out in 1982, but reading articles about him in Ebony during the 60s, there's plenty of queer-marking descriptions that are no less indicting than anything Midge said. He was actually sued in the 1960s for non-payment of the woman he hired as a beard at the World's Fair. That was a real lawsuit, certainly woul dhave raised plenty of red flags. Not murdered, attacked or even villified for it. 

There was no social media; the only people affected by anything Midge said were those ones actually in the audience. And I think it would be hard for a black audience to believe -- much less act on -- something a white girl said during a comedy show. Her two or three ambiguous joke lines would not supplant what they believed and felt about someone who had been a large part of their community -- no matter what joke she made, it would not supplant their own opinions about Shy. Certainly not to the point of endangering him. 

So yeah, I think saying that Midge endangered either his life or his career was hyperbole. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by whiporee

[Darian]

15 minutes ago, whiporee said:

If you were a high school freshman in the '70s, we're within a decade of each other -- I was a freshman in '79. My recollection of the gay rights issues then mostly concerned sodomy laws, Gay Bob and Jodie Dallas. But you may have a different memories as you were apparently more active in these things at 14 than I was.

However, since I didn't remember were widescale murders of performers for the hint of their sexuality, I did a little research. Little Richard was arrested in Georgia for homosexual acts in 1955 -- actually a threesome in a car -- and spent three days in jail. Not murdered. He actually said that appearing more effeminate helped his career by making him less threatening to white audiences, as he was not after white women (paraphrasing his words, not mine). Johnny Mathis, on whom Shy is most-closely modeled, had the same balance of sanitized masculinity as Shy has. Mathis never married, and whenever anyone was unmarried, those types of insinuations were made. He came out in 1982, but reading articles about him in Ebony during the 60s, there's plenty of queer-marking descriptions that are no less indicting than anything Midge said. He was actually sued in the 1960s for non-payment of the woman he hired as a beard at the World's Fair. That was a real lawsuit, certainly woul dhave raised plenty of red flags. Not murdered, attacked or even villified for it. 

There was no social media; the only people affected by anything Midge said were those ones actually in the audience. And I think it would be hard for a black audience to believe -- much less act on -- something a white girl said during a comedy show. Her two or three ambiguous joke lines would not supplant what they believed and felt about someone who had been a large part of their community -- no matter what joke she made, it would not supplant their own opinions about Shy. Certainly not to the point of endangering him. 

So yeah, I think saying that Midge endangered either his life or his career was hyperbole. 

I wish it were. I was in Florida in the 70s, but Boston before that. I guess I'm lucky that my parents didn't hide the ugly things happening to certain groups of people and that we should always do what we could to help. I remember Anita Bryant in 1977 was trying to repeal a law that gave some protection to gay people, for one thing. But, yeah, I did get involved young and learned to show up, shut up, listen and do what I was told, because I wasn't in danger. So I heard and saw enough terrible things done. Heck, in the early 2000s, I ducked punches just for being present at pro-marriage equality rallies. Some of my friends weren't lucky enough to avoid getting hit or spat on. In recent times. And my best friend from freshman year was a closeted lesbian, though she knew I knew and my house was her refuge from terrible parents. Yeah, Little Richard wasn't killed. Really glad of that. Doesn't mean there was no danger. There were plenty of people killed for not being straight. That's never stopped. Shy was in danger of losing everything, including his life. I could give a history lesson here, but apparently Midge is off-limits for criticism and I don't want to go too far off the topic.  It is on topic to say there was nothing vague about her jokes. Good grief, she outed him. 

I will say I saw Johnny Mathis in concert in the 70s (as a teen, I wasn't excited to go, but I loved that show. What a voice and performer). My parents had tickets but my mother had to go out of town because of an ill relative, so I went with my dad. The way a lot of the women were acting they sure seemed to think he was singing those love songs to them. And he wasn't outed. I also remember that information still managed to spread before social media. It's almost like people talked and there were newspapers and telephones! But social media does exist and so I will go enjoy other threads in this corner of it. 
 

[millennium]

4 hours ago, whiporee said:

So yeah, I think saying that Midge endangered either his life or his career was hyperbole. 

It could be argued that Shy endangered himself and his career by firing Midge.   If there were no truth to her jokes, as he would have the world believe, why fire her?  Firing her only seems to validate her insinuations.   He could have let them slide, then privately pulled Midge aside and said "ixnay on the gay jokes."   I don't think Midge would have objected.   She's not a monster.

Instead, he vindictively and dramatically fires her just before the big tour, inviting all kinds of scrutiny by the public and the press.  I find it less than realistic that no reporter or columnist made a connection between Midge's remarks at the Apollo and her firing.   Had that happened, there would be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

On the other hand, maybe Shy knew exactly what he was doing.     Maybe the public spectacle of a man putting a woman in her place, and humiliating her in the process, was the ultimate show of masculinity back then and bought Shy more hetero credibility than any other strategy could have.   Maybe the press was so entertained to see an outspoken woman get her comeuppance that it didn't bother to look any further lest it rob them of some of their fun.

[brillia79]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:11 PM, Darian said:

No, I don't need to hold on, and I am quite clear about the situation. My comment stands, as is. I am old enough to remember even a few years later what that set would have done to a gay man's life.  And she knew that, too, but she's the most self-centered, selfish person currently on TV. There's a reason I started advocating my freshman year of high school for what we then called gay rights. That was in the 70s. She quite literally could have gotten him killed. That's not hyperbole. 

We’re supposed to forget that straight black men were getting lynched in the 60s, meaning that Midge outing a gay black man was totes no big deal and she’s the real victim/ doesn’t have a bunch of people dedicating multiple seasons to making sure she suffers little to no consequences for her harmful attention seeking at others expense. Blech! As long as she turns on the waterworks and does a comedy set about revenge, it’s really women’s empowerment we’re watching. Not the genesis of a Karen.

I’m pretty grossed out by this season so far. 

[tennisgurl]

Its pretty hard to really root for Midge so far this season, especially when it comes to Shy. Even though she knows he's gay, she knows that its dangerous to be a gay man, she saw what happened when he was attacked by homophobes, she still cant comprehend that her jokes about him could have put his career and even his life in danger and that's why she got fired. She's so blinded by her own privilege that she just cant see the bigger picture, all she can see is how much this has affected her. I feel a bit bad that writers are still making fun of her in a rather sexist way, but I hope that this season she finally realizes that the things she says has consequences. So far though, the only thing she has taken from that seems to be "people just don't understand and appreciate my brilliance so the haters try to bring me down."

I have seen a lot of Twilight Zone, so I was amused that I could tell right away what episode Midge was talking about. To be fair to The Twilight Zone, people were only actually dead all along a few times...

I did like Midge's talk with Abe about finding fulfillment in rewarding but poorly paying jobs, nice to see them connect a little bit when he isn't getting his Trumbo in the tub on. 

I assumed that the pregnant woman was a recent widow, because even if Joel's mom is desperate for him to get married again, I cant see her trying to set him up with a woman pregnant out of wedlock. I know that this show can be anachronistic, but that seems not only off for the period, but off for her character. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by tennisgurl

[dmc]

On 2/19/2022 at 6:42 PM, Darian said:

I'm out. I've found Midge progressively insufferable but outing Shy in the 60s and forcing him into a sham marriage that his bride may nor may not be aware is not what he would prefer and instead of feeling a bit of remorse, cries victim some more. Leaving her on the tarmac was better than she deserved and something she could have learned from. But she just keeps stiffing hardworking merchants to live in luxury. Those poor women who had to listen to her act in prison. Again, walking out without at least being told to STFU is something she should be grateful for. I hate her too much to watch for the fashion and occasional actually funny line from her. 

Everything you said. 
 

And I still can’t stand Joel. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by dmc

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, dmc said:

And I still can’t stand Joel. 

Maybe because my daughter just went through a difficult childbirth, when Joel expressed sincere (albeit fleeting) concern for his date's apparent labor pains, I decided I was on board with the new and improved Joel.

About Midge and her privilege: 
I suspect she'll have a future moment of enlightenment because:

• Midge's in-our-faces lack of empathy or compassion for Shy looks like Chekhovian Lack Of Insight to me, so we can expect her to wake up by Act III,
  and
• It's the frickin' 60s when the Civil Rights Movement was joined by at least some of those of privilege 

However, I'd almost rather not have Midge become miraculously enlightened because it would be denying the reality of [the unlikelihood of] someone from her background suddenly becoming a champion for The Other.
I know my mom (who was just a little older than Midge at that time) made tiny progress in that area, but not a lot. 

It might actually be the Joel subplot that looks more closely at how people can or do not change if he has a biracial baby.

Edited February 21, 2022 by shapeshifter

[dmc]

29 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe because my daughter just went through a difficult childbirth, when Joel expressed sincere (albeit fleeting) concern for his date's apparent labor pains, I decided I was on board with the new and improved Joel.

About Midge and her privilege: 
I suspect she'll have a future moment of enlightenment because:

• Midge's in-our-faces lack of empathy or compassion for Shy looks like Chekhovian Lack Of Insight to me, so we can expect her to wake up by Act III,
  and
• It's the frickin' 60s when the Civil Rights Movement was joined by at least some of those of privilege 

However, I'd almost rather not have Midge become miraculously enlightened because it would be denying the reality of someone from her background suddenly becoming a champion for The Other.
I know my mom (who was just a little older than Midge at that time) made tiny progress in that area, but not a lot. 

It might actually be the Joel subplot that looks more closely at how people can or do not change if he has a biracial baby.

A lot of people are.  I still can’t stand him.  I think he’s a weak insecure person.  I don’t think weak insecure people aren’t capable of humanity though.  

Edited February 21, 2022 by dmc

[Sarah 103]

Based on the timing of the newspaper article, I thought Midge and Susie realized that her set had nothing to do with getting left on the tarmac. It seemed to me like Shy's people had planned to fire her before the set at the Apollo. 

Here's my two cents on the Shy Baldwin set: Outing Shy Baldwin would have been a horrible thing to do and would have terrible consqeuences for his life and career, but I don't think that's what she did. So few people outside the entertainment industry had gaydar in 1960, that the set is almost a non-issue. The odds that the majority of the audience would have been able to intrepet the code seems pretty small to me. Most people laughing at the set would have been laughing out of recognition at the idea that yep, Shy is a flashy dresser and into clothes. In the 21st Century, we know what an icon Judy Garland is/was to the gay community. In 1960, that wasn't as well known to the general public.

Around this time, maybe even slightly later, an investigative unit in the military trying to find homosexuals so they could be given discharges (unusually dishonorable) didn't know that being "A Friend of Dorothy" was code for being gay. These were people whose job it was to find homosexuals, and even they were unaware of it. They thought there was an actual real-life woman named Dorothy at the center of gay life in the military and were trying to figure out who this Dorothy person was.  

 

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Here's my two cents on the Shy Baldwin set: Outing Shy Baldwin would have been a horrible thing to do and would have terrible consqeuences for his life and career, but I don't think that's what she did. So few people outside the entertainment industry had gaydar in 1960, that the set is almost a non-issue. The odds that the majority of the audience would have been able to intrepet the code seems pretty small to me. Most people laughing at the set would have been laughing out of recognition at the idea that yep, Shy is a flashy dresser and into clothes. In the 21st Century, we know what an icon Judy Garland is/was to the gay community. In 1960, that wasn't as well known to the general public.

To me the conversations about the audience's interpretation and public knowledge is beside the point.

For me the point is that Shy made himself vulnerable to Midge (who in that moment was actually a nice, empathetic woman) - and though the audience may or may not have interpreted the relatively mild references, Shy did. It was a major betrayal, and she became entirely untrustworthy. I don't blame him for firing her, I don't even blame him for the spiteful way he did it.

Not to mention, this was not just any audience, it was a particularly important audience. Like family, almost.

My perspective is based on having family members who were put in concentration camps because of their sexual orientation. As a child in the early sixties, I became an advocate of gay rights, and even marriage equality (before it was even spoken of in non-gay circles).

Edited February 21, 2022 by Clanstarling

[millennium]

6 hours ago, dmc said:

And I still can’t stand Joel. 

Thank you.   I thought I was the only one.    He's a controlling bastard.

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, millennium said:

Thank you.   I thought I was the only one.    He's a controlling bastard.

He’s legit the worst.  
 

I think the other thing that annoys me is how amazingly low the bar is for men making any sort of effort that redeems them to other people

 

 

[millennium]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

For me the point is that Shy made himself vulnerable to Midge (who in that moment was actually a nice, empathetic woman) - and though the audience may or may not have interpreted the relatively mild references, Shy did. It was a major betrayal, and she became entirely untrustworthy. I don't blame him for firing her, I don't even blame him for the spiteful way he did it.

I'm reminded of Captain Jack Sparrow, when people would accuse him of terrible misdeeds, he would shrug and say "Pirate."

Comedians are always pushing propriety and social taboos to extremes regardless of who gets hurt -- even if it backfires on themselves (think Michael Richards, Kathy Griffin, Dave Chappelle, etc).    I have often heard friends and families of comedians remark, "I don't say anything to him or it ends up in his act."  They overstep boundaries and worry about the fallout later (if at all; some are sociopaths in that regard).   I'm not saying it's right or wrong.  It's just what they do.

The last person Shy should have opened up to is a comedian.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

The last person Shy should have opened up to is a comedian.

Can't disagree with that.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

I'm reminded of Captain Jack Sparrow, when people would accuse him of terrible misdeeds, he would shrug and say "Pirate."
Comedians are always pushing propriety and social taboos to extremes regardless of who gets hurt -- even if it backfires on themselves (think Michael Richards, Kathy Griffin, Dave Chappelle, etc).    I have often heard friends and families of comedians remark, "I don't say anything to him or it ends up in his act."  They overstep boundaries and worry about the fallout later (if at all; some are sociopaths in that regard).   I'm not saying it's right or wrong.  It's just what they do.
The last person Shy should have opened up to is a comedian.

This may be my favorite post ever, LOL. 
A while back I suggested that these boards add additional like symbols with up to 5 hearts, but alas, it was not to be, so now you need to scroll past posts like mine here.
As used to be said on message boards (if I still believed in marriage): I wish I could propose to this post and marry it.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

Edited February 22, 2022 by shapeshifter

[DrSpaceman73]

I realize she is trying to make it on her own and separate from Joel but it still bugs me they have not yet brought up the obvious, she can just perform in Joel's club. 

I do hope Lenny Bruce returns.  

[cardigirl]

I have issues with Midge, and the show, mostly because the people I know who are so enamored of her character are only interested in the beautiful apartment, clothes, and lifestyle that Midge wants to hold onto, even though her marriage broke up. She wants the traditional in her life but thinks being a comedian will provide that for her. 

I started watching the show because of several people telling me how much they howled (HOWLED) at Midge's comedy and her predicaments. 

I have yet to howl. 

I like some of the characters, mostly her parents and I like Joel too (horrors!). And sometimes I adore Suzie. But, as with all Sherman-Palladino shows, there is not a lot of balance in the storylines. Thus, Midge's parents, instead of being grateful, have to take Midge's generous offer and turn it into something that makes her less than.  That is the one time I've been #TeamMidge, when her parents were behaving worse than she was. 

I have NO IDEA why they thought introducing an extremely pregnant woman to Joel would be humorous, but I just found it frustrating. 

I'll watch, because I need to have something to discuss in the office, but I'll be surprised if I find myself thinking this is a great show. It's okay, but for goodness sakes, someone needs to write Midge better jokes. 😆

Edited February 22, 2022 by cardigirl

[DrSpaceman73]

25 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I have issues with Midge, and the show, mostly because the people I know who are so enamored of her character are only interested in the beautiful apartment, clothes, and lifestyle that Midge wants to hold onto, even though her marriage broke up. She wants the traditional in her life but thinks being a comedian will provide that for her. 

I started watching the show because of several people telling me how much they howled (HOWLED) at Midge's comedy and her predicaments. 

I have yet to howl. 

I like some of the characters, mostly her parents and I like Joel too (horrors!). And sometimes I adore Suzie. But, as with all Sherman-Palladino shows, there is not a lot of balance in the storylines. Thus, Midge's parents, instead of being grateful, have to take Midge's generous offer and turn it into something that makes her less than.  That is the one time I've been #TeamMidge, when her parents were behaving worse than she was. 

I have NO IDEA why they thought introducing an extremely pregnant woman to Joel would be humorous, but I just found it frustrating. 

I'll watch, because I need to have something to discuss in the office, but I'll be surprised if I find myself thinking this is a great show. It's okay, but for goodness sakes, someone needs to write Midge better jokes. 😆

I dont think she's a particularly funny comedian.  She is OK but far from great. 

Her advantage is her perspective as a woman snd being different from the other comedians at the time. 

Often though I see her and I think of Mac on its always sunny watching Dee's bad stand up on the gang breaks dee. 'A woman said vagina!'  Just her being female and cursing doesn't make her funny.  Original for the time but not that funny.  

And yes you're right she wants the best of both worlds. She wants to be a modern woman on her own with no husband but also have everything she had before with no change in lifestyle.  And as she told her manager she doesn't really want to have to do the grunt work or grind of the comedy scene. She wants to be able to just perform and say what she wants and everyone should just pay her to do it.  Doesn't work that way.  She wants to be Lenny Bruce bit without the work to get to the point he has Reached. 

She wants to be progressive while leaning on all her privilege and advantages. 

[xaxat]

I just think I am in a different headspace because of the pandemic. I'm not sure if it is the show or me, but I don't enjoy it as much as the first couple of seasons.

If nothing else, Midge failed to realize that she needed Shy a thousand times more than he needed her.

[Suzn]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I have issues with Midge, and the show, mostly because the people I know who are so enamored of her character are only interested in the beautiful apartment, clothes, and lifestyle that Midge wants to hold onto, even though her marriage broke up. She wants the traditional in her life but thinks being a comedian will provide that for her. 

I started watching the show because of several people telling me how much they howled (HOWLED) at Midge's comedy and her predicaments. 

I have yet to howl. 

 

2 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I dont think she's a particularly funny comedian.  She is OK but far from great. 

 

The things I like most are the shallow things listed above plus the look at the late fifties/early sixties New York.  I don't find Midge at all funny, occasionally witty or interesting, but I never feel like laughing.  She is mostly a spoiled, overly entitled woman who hasn't really earned what she has.

[millennium]

10 hours ago, Suzn said:

She is mostly a spoiled, overly entitled woman who hasn't really earned what she has.

She was married for years to a possessive, manipulative, lying cheat.   She was his emotional support -- his cheerleader.    She bore his children and has been raising them, now on her own.   She constantly caters to -- and now shelters -- two overbearing parents.   At the same time, she is creating a career out of whole cloth.

I'd say she has earned some of it.

 

 

 

[shapeshifter]

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

started watching the show because of several people telling me how much they howled (HOWLED) at Midge's comedy and her predicaments. 

I have yet to howl. 

Most of the time I see this as a great show about comedy rather than a great comedy, or even a comedy at all.

I have told a few people that this show is worth watching, but never for the humor. I have never been very amused by Midge’s routines, but then I rarely laugh while watching comedy. Maybe 1 out of every half dozen jokes will make me laugh in a Seinfeld episode. Humor is subjective. Historically, crowds laughed at people pilloried in the town square, or worse.

Even if I don’t laugh at most of Midge’s jokes (or Lenny Bruce’s) I appreciate a good joke for poking fun at unjust or just silly and outdated social norms.

But most of all, I relate to Midge and her family and her situation. I doubt many other viewers feel that way about the show, and yet it is very popular for whatever reasons.

And I do love the wardrobe.

[LadyRose]

22 hours ago, millennium said:

She was married for years to a possessive, manipulative, lying cheat.   She was his emotional support -- his cheerleader.    She bore his children and has been raising them, now on her own.   She constantly caters to -- and now shelters -- two overbearing parents.   At the same time, she is creating a career out of whole cloth.

I'd say she has earned some of it.

 

 

 

One thing Midge is not doing is raising the kids on her own. Her parents watched them in the first two seasons when she was living with them, working during the day and going out at night. What's more, her parents had no idea where she went at night. (Yes, she's a grown woman, not a teenager, but in my mind it's a matter of consideration for the people she lives with and concern for her own safety, to let them know where she'll be.) In the third season, the kids stayed with Joel or at their Maisel grandparents' house while Midge was on tour. Childcare arrangements are surprisingly easy for Midge. 

That said, I agree that Joel is a lying, manipulative cheat and that Midge's parents are overbearing. OTOH, they are not irredeemably horrible, nor is Midge beyond reproach.

[desertflower]

Have to agree with some of the other posts here that it’s really hard to like Midge this season. Normally I would feel sorry for a mother who can’t get milk for her kids but in her case I couldn’t get past the thought “Hmm, maybe sell some of your fancy dresses or down size some of the furniture or not put fresh flower arrangements on every single corner of every room of the house?”  She’s also pretty cold to the kids, in the few scenes she has with them. I know it’s not about the kids but maybe a tender moment once in a while would go a long way to making her a little more likeable. 
I did enjoy her parents telling the story they made up to explain why they were living with Joel’s parents and how frustrated Abe got when Midge couldn’t keep up with the story. Tony Shaloub is always a delight. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by desertflower

[Nicola]

Quote

Anyone else think Midge's speech about her being better when she is riffing was a bit cocky?

(raises hand)
Nothing she has ever done on stage was epic, in Boise or elsewhere.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Nicola

[shapeshifter]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:27 PM, Aulty said:

Anyone else think Midge's speech about her being better when she is riffing was a bit cocky? Surely you need to be able to do both if you want the occasional TV gig?

She might have sounded cocky to say it, but it can be very true with regards to, for instance, teaching college students how to use databases to do research. Spending hours putting together scripts and handouts can leave them yawning, while an impromptu demonstration based on what's happening at that moment can keep them awake and, yes, laugh. It's almost always like that. But scripts and practice are, as you say, part of it too.
But also:

26 minutes ago, Nicola said:

Nothing she has ever done on stage was epic, in Boise or elsewhere.

this👆 has been true. I guess the writers don't want to make Midge too funny? 🤷‍♀️

 

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

She might have sounded cocky to say it, but it can be very true with regards to, for instance, teaching college students how to use databases to do research. Spending hours putting together scripts and handouts can leave them yawning, while an impromptu demonstration based on what's happening at that moment can keep them awake and, yes, laugh. It's almost always like that. But scripts and practice are, as you say, part of it too.
But also:

this👆 has been true. I guess the writers don't want to make Midge too funny? 🤷‍♀️

 

From the various shows about stand up (or SNL type shows) it seems to me that it's very hard for writers who aren't actually comedians to write a really funny set. Though I have found some of Midge's comedy funny, it's not like I'm watching a real professional comedian.

[kwnyc]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Anyone else think Midge's speech about her being better when she is riffing was a bit cocky?

Ironic, because every "riff" she's ever done has been through a writer's room! ;-)