S01.E04: A Long Ladder

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile, Marian actually IS a poor person. "My aunt lets you live in her house!" Your aunt lets YOU live in her house too, Marian!

That!

Peggy has skills that has earned her a job (actually two). She earns her living and even if she did't, she could return to her parents and inherit her father's pharmacy. 

Marian has no money nor skills. She is totally at her aunt's mercy and after she dies, she will have nothing. Her only option is to marry.

She seems to live in the fantasy world. She loves fine parties and good clothes - well, who doesn't, but she totally forgets that if she becomes accustomed to them, she must marry a rich man in order to afford to them.

With Mr Raikes, she has been that kind of woman whose "no" doesn't mean anything - if a man doesn't accept it and persists, she will eventually yield.

Obviously, she wants both sides of the coin: she will marry Mr Raikes if her aunts accept him. But in order to be a part of the society, they will need money to maintain their lifestyle. It's not as easy as to a single man. 

 

 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, peridot said:

Marian thought she could drop by without invitation because they were nobody and don't deserve the courtesy afforded to everyone else.

Yes, that was a proper thing to do at that time and age.

In Downton Abbey Edith always came unannounced to the family who cared for her daughter which she thought OK because they were his fathers's tenants.    

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

My 21st century reaction to "she had an affair with Mr. Chamberlain while his now-dead wife was still alive" is "that is none of my business." 😂

 

If the "society" had a "right" to have nothing to do with Russells simply because they were "new money", they had the same "right" with Mrs Chamberlain because of the moral reasons (so that she wouldn't give a bad example to unmarried girls like Marian and Gladys).

In the same time, I admire Mrs Chamberlain for her courage. She could have been accepted by giving her child away, but she chose not to do that, only claiming him to be adopted.

 

[dmc]

I am going to give George some credit.  Not because he tossed out the maid, I never thought he was remotely interested in her.  But because he smarter than his wife and gets actually being kind to people when he doesn't have to be will get him more favors.  That is smart strategy anywhere.

One thing I will say about the maid is she sort of reminds me of his wife.  As in the kind of person that goes for things despite a lack of interested parties. In other words, his type.  So my guess is this isn't over.  

Bertha is still the worst but was enjoying her scene with Marion until Mr.  Raikes showed up like the Phantom of Opera.  

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[Hiyo]

Quote

Has she? Friendship means equality. If you believe that your friend needs help, you try to do it without humbling her and her family on the top. 

Yeah but friendship between a white woman and a black woman back then was a bit different than how it is now (though as @Miss Slay pointed out above, not always the case).

 

[dmc]

14 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Quote

Has she? Friendship means equality. If you believe that your friend needs help, you try to do it without humbling her and her family on the top. 

 

So many people try to help their friends and don't consider this even now...yes in a perfect world this would be friendship but a lot of friends are heavy handed on your behalf

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile, Marian actually IS a poor person. "My aunt lets you live in her house!" Your aunt lets YOU live in her house too, Marian!

This! Exactly this!

The difference is that Peggy chose to live there. Peggy actually had a house to go back to. Marian had nowhere else to go.

Marian… 🙄

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Has she? Friendship means equality. If you believe that your friend needs help, you try to do it without humbling her and her family on the top. 

Friendship also means knowing your friends and knowing whether or not they actually need old hand-me-downs. 🙄

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Obviously, she wants both sides of the coin: she will marry Mr Raikes if her aunts accept him. But in order to be a part of the society, they will need money to maintain their lifestyle. It's not as easy as to a single man. 

Tom Raikes seems ambitious enough to make that happen.

I just want to add that this man moved two states over, and seemingly is improving his life financially and socially… because of Marian. That doesn’t sound like the foundation of a long lasting and mostly fulfilling relationship. That sounds like a recipe for resentment.

[Pestilentia]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

8 hours ago, peridot said:

Marian thought she could drop by without invitation because they were nobody and don't deserve the courtesy afforded to everyone else.

Yes, that was a proper thing to do at that time and age.

It's the proper thing to do now. 

Even my Mother calls before coming to my home, and I do so before going to hers. 

Marion needs a governess/keeper way more than poor Gladys who seems to be primed to age out of marriageability before her coming out even takes place. That's an exaggeration of course but sooner or later Gladys is going to rebel and cause some mighty big problems in that Russell house. Nobody pays her much attention and she's invisible most of the time but all this oppression is going to make for some consequences I think.    

I was quite upset with Peggy's father being such a spoil sport until he was asked whatever happened to the sloppy eater "Uncle Billy" and he mentioned that he had been sold.   I have to keep reminding myself just how little time has passed since the Civil War and how fresh it all must be in Mr. Scott's mind and I lighten up on him a little. But he's as stuck in his ways as some of the white people IMO and has lost all sense of hope or trust or even the initiative to attempt change.

I do wonder if we'll ever see or hear what he went through to end up a pharmacist in 1880s NYC. I know there were founding schools in the south for African American pharmacists, but there were also black students in some of the "white" schools in the north. I doubt we'll delve that deeply into Peggy's family's history but it would be interesting.

[dmc]

I also wanted to drop this here.  While I’m not a fan of Bertha I am a fan of her wardrobe.  The show makes me so sad that it’s not paying attention to anybody else’s wardrobe. This was a time of excess, I want to see all these people looking this amazing

 

To me, Marion always looks a mess.

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[pasdetrois]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

This woman deserves an Emmy. She put my emotions on the screen

Episode MVP. Loved her.

I would visit Mrs. Chamberlain for the Degas.

I am rubbing my hands with glee at Nathan Lane arriving as Ward McAllister.

I think another poster mentioned it - this series is stuffed with theater actors.

Edited February 15, 2022 by pasdetrois

[eejm]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Has she? Friendship means equality. If you believe that your friend needs help, you try to do it without humbling her and her family on the top. 

Who said Marian doesn’t see Peggy as an equal?  Her assumption that Peggy was poor was way off base (and yes, it was made based on the color of Peggy’s skin), but I don’t believe Marian sees Peggy as less than.  Case in point: their trip to the shop.  Marian is all sorts of dense in not realizing that Peggy was getting death stares from the staff, but I think in her mind Marian felt Peggy had just as much right to be there as she did.  Marian doesn’t recognize that their worlds are very different which is shockingly naive, but she certainly doesn’t believe Peggy is less of a person.  
 

Marian also was also very interested in Peggy’s writing career, consoling Peggy after the white-owned paper treated her badly and celebrating when the black-owned paper hired her.  Marian did not know anything about Peggy’s family, but Peggy made it clear from the start that she did not want to discuss her family due to the fight with her father.  Marian respected that and didn’t push it.  So while Marian is woefully unobservant about certain aspects of Peggy’s life, I don’t think her sense of equality is the problem here.  I believe she views Peggy as a genuine friend and has treated her as such, albeit in a sometimes very misguided manner.

Edited February 15, 2022 by eejm

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

So many people try to help their friends and don't consider this even now...yes in a perfect world this would be friendship but a lot of friends are heavy handed on your behalf

Of course it's nothing wrong to help one's friends (or other people for matter matter). What is wrong to do it with an condescending manner.

If Peggy or her family had really needed clothes or shoes, Marian should have acted discreetly, maybe even with a white lie: "This color doesn't suit me. You do me  a favor by taking it."

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Of course it's nothing wrong to help one's friends (or other people for matter matter). What is wrong to do it with an condescending manner.

If Peggy or her family had really needed clothes or shoes, Marian should have acted discreetly, maybe even with a white lie: "This color doesn't suit me. You do me  a favor by taking it."

I don’t believe I implied it wasn’t wrong just that a lot of friends do it. Marion is a jerk here but I think she does care about Peggy.  Peggy yelled at her and hopefully she will be a better friend in the future 

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

George really should have tossed that maid out. It's not protecting your wife to have her hanging around. 

Bertha was already going to have to hire a new governess for Gladys.  She could interview a bunch of women and decide which would be best for each position. 

Every time "Agnes" appears on screen, this is what pops into my mind.  LOL.  

[MrPissyPuppy]

11 hours ago, DesiJF said:

Who is Mr. Russell' valet stalking?  Man, creepy much?

He's not stalking; he's observing!  I'm currently in the middle of a Fringe re-watch & it amuses me whenever Watson is watching whatever.  (Michael Cerveris played September one of the Observers.) 

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, MrPissyPuppy said:

He's not stalking; he's observing!  I'm currently in the middle of a Fringe re-watch & it amuses me whenever Watson is watching whatever.  (Michael Cerveris played September one of the Observers.) 

Mr. Raikes says hi 

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[Roseanna]

When Larry Russell saved Aunt Ada's dog, I suppodes it was hinted that he would become Marian's love interest. Actually, favoring that romance would have been a good way to Bertha to get to know her Aunt Agnes - if she had to choose a country lawyer and  a son of New Money for a suitor to Marian, I would bet the latter. But nothing has happened.  

Larry seems to be either stupid or he doesn't care much about Gladys. That somebody is your buddy, isn't a good enough reason for letting him court  your sister. And the conversation with his father happened *after* Oscar had dropped Russells, believing that they had lost their fortune and Gladys wasn't a good catch.  It's good that Mr Russell can smell a fortune hunter. Let's hope that if he lets Oscar investigated in good time!

Gladys seems to be quite egoistical. Not for a moment did she think that asking help for meeting a man from her governess, would get her fired - and probably without recommendations. 

As for a governess, why on earth did she take so big a risk? Is the man her relative or friend whom she wants to help get a heiress, perhaps getting heir reputation ruined?

[Jordan Baker]

11 minutes ago, MrPissyPuppy said:

He's not stalking; he's observing!  I'm currently in the middle of a Fringe re-watch & it amuses me whenever Watson is watching whatever.  (Michael Cerveris played September one of the Observers.) 

I saw him in Passion at the Sondheim Festival in 2002. He has a magnificent voice and stage presence. I hope we see more of him.

The talent in some of these secondary roles is just crazy.

[JasonCC]

The Governess was really stupid RE George. For us the viewer it's obvious George and Bertha are not in a staid, sexless marriage so I'm sure that is also apparent for those who live under their roof. At best she might get one night of sex after a few drinks that he would be awkward about after. George in no way shape or form looked like a lonely man ripe for being manipulated by a mistress.

[AZChristian]

3 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

The Governess was really stupid RE George. For us the viewer it's obvious George and Bertha are not in a staid, sexless marriage so I'm sure that is also apparent for those who live under their roof. At best she might get one night of sex after a few drinks that he would be awkward about after. George in no way shape or form looked like a lonely man ripe for being manipulated by a mistress.

I think you are mixing up two characters (which I did also at first).  The governess (who was fired) and Turner (Bertha's personal maid) are two different people.  Turner was the one who jumped naked into George's bed.

On another note.  I looked up a definition of "adventurer" (which Agnes called Raikes):  "somewhat old-fashioned : one who seeks unmerited wealth or position."  We all see that Oscar is only pursuing Gladys for her family's money.  Except Agnes.  She doesn't see that her own son is an adventurer.  

[Carolina Girl]

 

Just now, AZChristian said:

"somewhat old-fashioned : one who seeks unmerited wealth or position." 

Queen Mary used this word to describe Wallis Simpson.  

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

I was quite upset with Peggy's father being such a spoil sport until he was asked whatever happened to the sloppy eater "Uncle Billy" and he mentioned that he had been sold.   I have to keep reminding myself just how little time has passed since the Civil War and how fresh it all must be in Mr. Scott's mind and I lighten up on him a little. But he's as stuck in his ways as some of the white people IMO and has lost all sense of hope or trust or even the initiative to attempt change.

I think Mr. Scott is completely relatable. Considering the time period, he wants his daughter to be in a space where she doesn’t have to step aside when a white couple walks past; a space where she enters through the front door rather than the servants door and doesn’t have to live and eat in the servants’ quarters; a space where she isn’t limited to a secretary and can be the second-in-command and later the boss.

He’s harsh but I think it’s relatable. He wants her to live without limits and she can have that but not in the “white people’s world.” From his point of view, Peggy is young and idealistic, and the world is bound to knock her down. To Mr. Scott’s credit, they live in a community where Peggy can thrive and be a fully respected member of her community.

It’s not just that Mr. Scott is set in his ways (and he may be). He just can’t understand why his daughter, a highly educated and ambitious black woman, would want to live in a world where she is not treated and seen as an equal. Why would anyone choose to do that? Why would anyone choose to be in a world where they are not wanted? Why would she choose not to be in a place where she is wanted, can thrive, have everything she wants, and be equal among the community? That is completely understandable.

The only thing that goes over Mr. Scott’s head is that world is too small for Peggy. She wants more.

Edited February 15, 2022 by AntFTW

[Carolina Girl]

2 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

She doesn't see that her own son is an adventurer.  

In defense of Agnes' "blind eye", Oscar does have position as Old Money New York.  And Agnes knows he will inherit her estate when she passes on so she may not be aware of his apparent current need for money.   BTW, I'm assuming Oscar has some sort of job - I can't see Agnes giving him an allowance and letting him skate on by in his digs without actually doing something to provide for himself.  Has it been mentioned what he does?  

 

[Angeleyes]

9 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Did the Gilded Age have a literary equivalent to He's Just Not That Into You? Turner could really use a copy. I cheered when George told Turner what we've all been screaming at our TVs - he loves his wife, and he doesn't need her scheming nips. I did think it was kind of lame to not fire her ass (this will come back to haunt him for sure). I vaguely remember in the pilot that Turner was hired because she'd worked in old money society, but we haven't seen enough of her interactions with Bertha to see the value of keeping her. At least on Downton, the dynamics between Cora and O'Brien/ Mary and Anna were complex and well-developed.

 

8 hours ago, CattyK said:

George should have immediately thrown Turner out of the house in her nightgown.  She would have been totally shamed and ruined.  It makes no sense at all to keep her on.  She’ll probably start giving Bertha bad advice now.  And if Bertha ever finds out what Turner did, she’ll kill Turner, then kill George for covering it up.  
I think the show would be better without Turner, it’s just unnecessary melodrama,  but this is typical for Julian Fellowes I guess.  

8 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Mr. Russell should have fired Turner's ass. That is going to come back and bite HIM in the ass. I wonder if she's going to try and roofie him next, like the scheming maid going after Tom Branson on Downton.

I think what we have to keep in mind is that normally the wife is the one in charge of household decisions. If George had been the one to fire Turner then speculation would have been rampant because it would have been such an unusual move for him to do so instead of Bertha. It would have opened them up to more gossip. He probably felt like Bertha didn’t need more of that right now. He was probably thinking that the situation would be contained after he yelled at Turner and explained that this was not happening if he showed benevolence and didn’t fire her. Plus, as he explained Turner had seemed to do well in her job with Bertha and Bertha liked her. After the party fiasco, he didn’t want to break Bertha’s heart yet again with another setback. 

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

In defense of Agnes' "blind eye", Oscar does have position as Old Money New York.  And Agnes knows he will inherit her estate when she passes on so she may not be aware of his apparent current need for money.   BTW, I'm assuming Oscar has some sort of job - I can't see Agnes giving him an allowance and letting him skate on by in his digs without actually doing something to provide for himself.  Has it been mentioned what he does?  

 

Oscar mentioned that his family is a banking family so I assume he also does that.

Regarding Oscar’s need for money, Oscar doesn’t need money. Oscar has money. He just sees the future. He sees that, in the future, a shadow will be casted over the Old Money and the entity casting that shadow will be the New Money sitting on their much larger stacks of cash. Oscar sees the influence will shift away from Old Money to New Money. Oscar wants to stay among the influential.

[SoTheresThat]

nevermind

Edited February 15, 2022 by SoTheresThat

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

It's the proper thing to do now. 

Even my Mother calls before coming to my home, and I do so before going to hers. 

I agree that it's a far general norm today when people have mobile phones.

However, it's a only a bit over ten years when we the last time visited my grandparents' farmhouse that has for decades been used occasionally only during during the summer by various descendants. It didn't took a long time when a villager came. I remember well from my childhood that it was a habit in that region that people just came in - a few had some matter, but most wanted simply chat.  But in the region my family lived that would have been out of question!

So there is always differences in behavior even inside one country, not to speak of the world. 

[dmc]

34 minutes ago, Angeleyes said:

 

I think what we have to keep in mind is that normally the wife is the one in charge of household decisions. If George had been the one to fire Turner then speculation would have been rampant because it would have been such an unusual move for him to do so instead of Bertha. It would have opened them up to more gossip. He probably felt like Bertha didn’t need more of that right now. He was probably thinking that the situation would be contained after he yelled at Turner and explained that this was not happening if he showed benevolence and didn’t fire her. Plus, as he explained Turner had seemed to do well in her job with Bertha and Bertha liked her. After the party fiasco, he didn’t want to break Bertha’s heart yet again with another setback. 

I don’t think that’s the reason he didn’t fire her.  He’s made it pretty clear that he doesn’t feel the need to follow convention.  I think he just doesn’t believe she’s a threat.   And maybe he really thinks his wife does like her.  The weird part is I’m surprised Bertha hasn’t fired her.  The maid really doesn’t seem that pleasant to be around.  But then again Cora kept O’Brien forever so maybe these people don’t care

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[AntFTW]

9 hours ago, buttersister said:

Marian is the worst. 

Fellowes’ idea of a heroine? 🤮

The one thing I am not liking about this show is that Marian is supposed to be naive but she doesn’t appear to be learning or getting less naive with each episode. They have been pushing her naïveté really hard since she got robbed at the train station in the first episode. She’s staying in that same naive spot we found her in.

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I agree that it's a far general norm today when people have mobile phones.

However, it's a only a bit over ten years when we the last time visited my grandparents' farmhouse that has for decades been used occasionally only during during the summer by various descendants. It didn't took a long time when a villager came. I remember well from my childhood that it was a habit in that region that people just came in - a few had some matter, but most wanted simply chat.  But in the region my family lived that would have been out of question!

So there is always differences in behavior even inside one country, not to speak of the world. 

I agree. My folks are from rural Georgia. To this day, people just stop by unannounced.

I live in the cities of South Florida. It’s uncommon for anyone to stop by my house unannounced. The only exception is my parents. They just don’t care at all. They feel very comfortable stopping by whenever they feel like it 🤣

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I agree. My folks are from rural Georgia. To this day, people just stop by unannounced.

I live in the cities of South Florida. It’s uncommon for anyone to stop by my house unannounced. The only exception is my parents. They just don’t care at all. They feel very comfortable stopping by whenever they feel like it 🤣

I think it’s regional.

 

When I lived in southern Virginia, Stopping by without calling was the norm.  In fact people used to say something every time I called first.

 

In northern Virginia where I live now no one would stop by without calling

[iMonrey]

Quote

Is Tom Raikes a gigolo or he stole Marian’s inheritance (whatever left of it)? 🤔

Lots of speculation about this, but if you watch those "Inside the Episode" shorts, the actor playing Raikes seems to think his character is genuine. Which leads me to believe the writing is just kind of lazy in regards to this storyline. In fact it often feels like Season 1 is trying to do way too much, like Fellowes is worried there won't be another season and is trying to get in as much story as possible. Lots of things feel rushed.

I also still feel like the downstairs characters are under-written and two dimensional. This thing with the maid and her abusive past just feels sort of tacked on, I still don't feel like the show has developed the character enough for me to care about this. It was like that with the cook and her gambling problem. Just sort of obligatory and perfunctory. Like Fellowes was churning out the scripts and remembered "Oh, yeah, I have to write something for the servants, too." I enjoyed the scene with the butlers, but again I'm hard-pressed to care about them as people as I know next to nothing about them.

The bit with Turner crawling into bed with Mr. Russell was really, really dumb and the fact that she wasn't fired on the spot is incomprehensible. The main problem with Fellowes' writing is you can see the plot points coming a mile away, and the fact that Turner is still around after pulling a stunt like that is just purely manufactured drama, and now we're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[meep.meep]

These people had a system for stopping by unannounced and we saw how it worked here.  Marian shows up and the maid answers the door and asks for her card.  Marian hands it over and waits.  The maid shows the card to the family who agree to see Marian.  The maid goes back and ushers Marian in.

If the family didn't want to see her, the maid would have gone back to Marian and informed her that the family was "not at home."  The maid would have handed the calling card back to Marian who either would take it or insist that it be kept to show the family that she had called while they were "out."

That's why you don't build houses with "open concept" - there's no privacy between the family and the callers.

[dmc]

16 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Lots of speculation about this, but if you watch those "Inside the Episode" shorts, the actor playing Raikes seems to think his character is genuine. Which leads me to believe the writing is just kind of lazy in regards to this storyline. In fact it often feels like Season 1 is trying to do way too much, like Fellowes is worried there won't be another season and is trying to get in as much story as possible. Lots of things feel rushed.

I also still feel like the downstairs characters are under-written and two dimensional. This thing with the maid and her abusive past just feels sort of tacked on, I still don't feel like the show has developed the character enough for me to care about this. It was like that with the cook and her gambling problem. Just sort of obligatory and perfunctory. Like Fellowes was churning out the scripts and remembered "Oh, yeah, I have to write something for the servants, too." I enjoyed the scene with the butlers, but again I'm hard-pressed to care about them as people as I know next to nothing about them.

The bit with Turner crawling into bed with Mr. Russell was really, really dumb and the fact that she wasn't fired on the spot is incomprehensible. The main problem with Fellowes' writing is you can see the plot points coming a mile away, and the fact that Turner is still around after pulling a stunt like that is just purely manufactured drama, and now we're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Or Fellows hasn’t told him he’s shady yet.

 

To your point about the writing, this is like the sixth television series that has dropped recently that I’ve been disappointed in the writing. I agree it has some problems here too.  I keep comparing it to Downton Abbey because I feel like even in season one I was really invested in all of the characters there. I even cared about the villainous characters. The show is absolutely missing that element for me.

Raikes is definitely not Matthew and I’m not rooting for him and Marion to get together.  The fact that most of us think he’s a schemer if he’s not goes to poor writing and probably acting.

And I’ve said it before I can absolutely tell that Bertha and George are supposed to be the people you’re rooting for and I don’t think that they are that yet. I’m not invested in them or their marriage or their rise in society

 

Then I think Marion is clearly supposed to be the main character but her acting is really weak. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Okay, Raikes is totally shady, right? There is no way that a nobody lawyer from Pennsylvania can social climb that quickly without shenanigans. 

Yeah, they're pushing hard how Raikes has come to NYC with an agenda. Really, it's weird he'd even be interested in Marian.

10 hours ago, CattyK said:

George should have immediately thrown Turner out of the house in her nightgown.  She would have been totally shamed and ruined.  It makes no sense at all to keep her on.  She’ll probably start giving Bertha bad advice now.  And if Bertha ever finds out what Turner did, she’ll kill Turner, then kill George for covering it up.  
I think the show would be better without Turner, it’s just unnecessary melodrama,  but this is typical for Julian Fellowes I guess.  

Didn't she already give her bad advice at some point?

10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Not blaming the father because he was "mad" seems more of the past to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean that part. I meant the whole situation that she's actually telling people about it. But I do think it's also unusual that she'd say her mother was at fault for not doing anything, sitting downstairs, when her father would be the head of the household. Seems pretty modern for her to actually picture her mother doing anything about it in any practical way. I can accept her resenting her mother because that's what she feels on some level in her mind, of course. But laying it all out the way she did, deflection included, sounded surprisingly modern. It's like she was giving character notes.

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Friendship also means knowing your friends and knowing whether or not they actually need old hand-me-downs. 🙄

And presumably, the shoes weren't for Peggy exactly? I mean, she sees Peggy has shoes. Knows she has a job. and another as well now. So it seems she...what? Assumed Peggy was hiding a tenement house full of poor family members, one of whom might be thrilled to get second hand shoes? Because if the shoes were for Peggy she could have given them to her at home. Where they both live!

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

On another note.  I looked up a definition of "adventurer" (which Agnes called Raikes):  "somewhat old-fashioned : one who seeks unmerited wealth or position."  We all see that Oscar is only pursuing Gladys for her family's money.  Except Agnes.  She doesn't see that her own son is an adventurer.  

She wouldn't even if she saw him marrying Gladys for her money. Oscar's old money and therefore merits the wealth. It's Gladys, she thinks, would be gaining out of the marriage.

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I also still feel like the downstairs characters are under-written and two dimensional. This thing with the maid and her abusive past just feels sort of tacked on, I still don't feel like the show has developed the character enough for me to care about this. It was like that with the cook and her gambling problem. Just sort of obligatory and perfunctory. Like Fellowes was churning out the scripts and remembered "Oh, yeah, I have to write something for the servants, too." I enjoyed the scene with the butlers, but again I'm hard-pressed to care about them as people as I know next to nothing about them.

 

Exactly. The maid acted clearly tramatized last week, and this week just spits out a standard abuse story. Which is not meant to belittle the many people who actually lived it--it's standard because unfortunately those situations happen a lot and predators tend to work the same way. But in this context it just means that the maid's defined by being the sexual abuse story. She's going to be "Irish Incest Maid" until I can start remembering her name.

 

9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The bit with Turner crawling into bed with Mr. Russell was really, really dumb and the fact that she wasn't fired on the spot is incomprehensible. The main problem with Fellowes' writing is you can see the plot points coming a mile away, and the fact that Turner is still around after pulling a stunt like that is just purely manufactured drama, and now we're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Yes, the maid seems to have give nothing particularly useful to Mrs. Russell, but now Mr. Russell's keeping her on for later plot purposes. Because suddenly he's a fool who can't see this making trouble. Really, why was he even laying out how he loved his wife to her at all? The obviously normal thing to have done would be to have coldly told her to put on her clothes, stop making a fool of herself and be out in the morning. Dude, you don't need to explain to her that the only reason you're not falling for it is that you're currently hot for your wife. That's practically asking for a raincheck. 

12 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

If the family didn't want to see her, the maid would have gone back to Marian and informed her that the family was "not at home."  The maid would have handed the calling card back to Marian who either would take it or insist that it be kept to show the family that she had called while they were "out."

 

This was a bit why I didn't get why the family told her she was imposing. Why not just say you're not at home? They obviously weren't worried about offending her.

[Affogato]

56 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

The one thing I am not liking about this show is that Marian is supposed to be naive but she doesn’t appear to be learning or getting less naive with each episode. They have been pushing her naïveté really hard since she got robbed at the train station in the first episode. She’s staying in that same naive spot we found her in.

She is very like Ada and Ada has clearly not become more cynical or savvy with time. The family resemblance is strong. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Affogato
Typo

[AntFTW]

I missed this small part the first time, but is it being implied that Arthur Scott was a slave before?

Edited February 15, 2022 by AntFTW

[buttersister]

Quote

I can absolutely tell that Bertha and George are supposed to be the people you’re rooting for and I don’t think that they are that yet. I’m not invested in them or their marriage or their rise in society

I like them, but that's primarily because I like the actors. Otoh, I was supposed to root for DA's Lady Mary and I never did.

[shang yiet]

The writing of Downton Abbey was not really that good and the same weaknesses are cropping up here. Characters behaving dumbly like the maid and Marion. Just a bit too heavy-handed for me.

And I am really not interested in Peggy. I feel like I've seen that storyline before - spunky smart girl resisting family pressure and needs to do her own thing, blah blah.  As for Marion, it would be more interesting if she drops the wide-eyed act and suddenly become aware that she is penniless, dependent on Aunt Agnes's charity and needs to marry well before Agnes drops dead. That would be a more interesting storyline, how to find a husband in the Gilded Age.

I really can't tell the servants apart.

The dialogue seems somewhat stilted to me as if the fictional characters are always ''aware' of the viewer.

[Nedsdag]

Hello, my name is Hand and I am here to slap one Marian Brook upside her head because: 

• You know what happens when you assume: it makes an ass out of you and me and the "you" in this case is you, Marian, when you assume that Peggy was poor because she lived in Brooklyn. Did she think giving away beat up shoes would make things OK at the Scott house? Thank you, Peggy for saving Marian in that situation and for literally bitch-slapping her outside of her house.
• Put two and two together, Marian. Mr. Raikes is moving WAY. TOO. FAST into New York. Grow a brain and think about this. Also, isn't it a bit ironic that he set up a law firm quickly and has already put a foot into New York society? Think, Marian, THINK!
• Marian, your naïveté regarding Mrs. Chamberlain is also becoming ridiculous. You have to know you can't change New York societal mores overnight. Stop pushing Mrs. Chamberlain on your family. Granted, Mrs. Chamberlain's "scandals" look ridiculous from afar, but push, don't shove.

I guess Marian is supposed to be naive for a reason, but it's becoming annoying. I am eagerly awaiting her comeuppance, especially when it comes to Raikes.

As for the rest of the show and I know I'm not supposed to quoting other shows, but George Russell, will you accept this rose? I know this is too good to be true, but when you threw Turner's skinny, lack of cleavage ass out of your bed, I fell for you and I don't find you all that attractive. Continue your fidelity, even though it may not last.

Finally, it'll be interesting to see what happens with Peggy at the New York Globe. There could be two possible suitors for her.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Nedsdag

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

These people had a system for stopping by unannounced and we saw how it worked here.  Marian shows up and the maid answers the door and asks for her card.  Marian hands it over and waits.  The maid shows the card to the family who agree to see Marian.  The maid goes back and ushers Marian in.

If the family didn't want to see her, the maid would have gone back to Marian and informed her that the family was "not at home."  The maid would have handed the calling card back to Marian who either would take it or insist that it be kept to show the family that she had called while they were "out."

That's why you don't build houses with "open concept" - there's no privacy between the family and the callers.

Good ponts.

However,  there were usually rules about times for visits - maybe they weren't said aloud, but everyone knew them. F.ex. one didn't visit during meals like Marian did which showed that either she didn't care to show ordinary politeness - or Peggy's family are at diffent time than she was used to do. 

 

[eejm]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I missed this small part the firs time, but is it being implied that Arthur Scott was a slave before?

I think this is the first hint we’ve had that Arthur is a former slave, but yes.  He remembered his uncle who was sold away, so Arthur had to have been a slave.  It was also confirmed on the accompanying podcast that Arthur was a slave, but Dorothy (Peggy’s mom) was always a free woman.

[AntFTW]

Just now, eejm said:

I think this is the first hint we’ve had that Arthur is a former slave, but yes.  He remembered his uncle who was sold away, so Arthur had to have been a slave.  It was also confirmed on the accompanying podcast that Arthur was a slave, but Dorothy (Peggy’s mom) was always a free woman.

That, IMO, makes Arthur's harsh position even more understandable.

[ribboninthesky1]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

The only thing that goes over Mr. Scott’s head is that world is too small for Peggy. She wants more.

I was hoping we would learn the specifics on what caused the rift between Peggy and her father.  Because as it stands, he comes across reasonable enough.  Peggy is pursuing her writing while living in servants' quarters, dealing with bigotry and malice for simply existing, and being a secretary for Agnes.   Is there a reason she couldn't work at her father's pharmacy and pursue her writing as well? I realize he doesn't take her writing seriously, but who cares as long she gets published? Her mother is fully supportive of her. I wish we could have seen more of them without Marian's interruptions. 

It's one thing if she had to endure all of that because she had nowhere else to go, but to tolerate it because she doesn't want to work for her father makes her appear almost as ungrateful and immature as Marian. I don't recall her saying she had her own income before returning to New York, so I assume she was living off an allowance from her parents?  Her saving grace is being talented.          

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile, Marian actually IS a poor person. "My aunt lets you live in her house!" Your aunt lets YOU live in her house too, Marian!

Exactly!  The nerve. 

I'd hope that would be the end of this friendship, but I suspect it is not since Marian is a (the?) protagonist.   

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Oscar mentioned that his family is a banking family so I assume he also does that.

Regarding Oscar’s need for money, Oscar doesn’t need money. Oscar has money. He just sees the future. He sees that, in the future, a shadow will be casted over the Old Money and the entity casting that shadow will be the New Money sitting on their much larger stacks of cash. Oscar sees the influence will shift away from Old Money to New Money. Oscar wants to stay among the influential.

Had not considered that aspect.  Interesting.  He seemed to be projecting "I need money" to me.

I'm starting to wonder if there wasn't a trust fund set up by Marion's father for her that would be given to her upon his death or her marriage.  Raikes would certainly be in a position to know about it and Marion's father may not have told her and would assume that if he died and she were unmarried, that at the reading of the will the lawyer would explain it.  It would certainly explain his urgent desire to marry her and his working overtime mixing with Old Money to make himself an acceptable marriage prospect to Aunt Agnes (which further makes me wonder if any "marriage" provision was contingent upon family approval of the betrothed as "suitable").  

[Hiyo]

Quote

And I am really not interested in Peggy

Me too. I like Peggy, I think she has an interesting story that could be told...I'm just not sure I want to see that story on this particular show.

[buckboard]

At the symphony, Raikes was sitting in the Schermerhorn family box because he knew a Schermerhorn from a law school class.  This is a really big deal.  They are REALLY old New York, one of the early Dutch settlers.  THE Mrs. Astor was a Schermerhorn by birth so Raikes has really hit the big time by getting to sit there (and be set up with a young woman by Mrs. Schermerhorn.)  This society woman seems to feel more strongly about his prospects than Agnes does. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Me too. I like Peggy, I think she has an interesting story that could be told...I'm just not sure I want to see that story on this particular show.

Me three. I wish her well. I'd like to hang out with her or be friends IRL. But so far her story is a bit by the numbers. In fact, her parents seem like they might be more weird and interesting to watch.