S06.E06: Babylon's Ashes

[MrPissyPuppy]

A little update on the names from Naren Shankar on Twitter. 

 

 

[JZL]

3 hours ago, marinw said:

I grew up watching the original Star Trek and reading the YA Robert Heinlein, so there's my origin story. 

(In retrospect, I'm sure Robert Heinlein would be all kinds of problematic by today's standards)

Speaking of Original Star Trek, I wonder if The Expanse will be one of those hows people discover once its' run is over.

Same here.  The first actual book book I ever read was Have Spacesuit, Will Travel, and I watched every episode of Star Trek TOS the night they aired.  I wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up.

One of the appeals of this show to me was its basis in old-timey sci-fi-- rockets, space stations, ray guns.  Abraham and Franck once said Alfred Bester's  The Stars My Destination (1956) was one of their inspirations for the show (e.g., the book starts with a lone person trapped aboard a disabled spaceship).  Also, I liked that the story was apparently confined to the Solar System as was much of early sci-fi.  That's why the end of season three blew my mind.  At the end of s3e13, I said aloud, "So that's why they called it 'The Expanse!'"

Triton by Samuel R. Delany features, as a thematic backdrop, a war between the moons of the outer planets and Earth, and it was one of my favorites as a teen.  (FWIW, it's themes on gender identity and sexual mores were waaaay ahead of its time for a book written in 1976).  Admittedly, Delany can be a tough read but I still strongly recommend this one. 

So it's little wonder that The Expanse is my favorite show of all time.  I guess I'm lucky I'm one of these people who can watch loved shows and movies over and over, plus I've only finished the first book. 

I'm also lucky this show has one of the best fanbases ever, what with this forum, to a lesser extent the Discord channel, and of course, we saved The Expanse! 🚀

Jeebus, I sure was wrong about that fackin' Laconia storyline. 🤪  They could have done the relevant parts of that with two minutes of Duarte-TBS communiques spread across all six eps, right?

 

 

[marinw]

Just now, JZL said:

I'm also lucky this show has one of the best fanbases ever, what with this forum, to a lesser extent the Discord channel, and of course, we saved The Expanse! 🚀

The Expanse is why I joined Previouslytv/Primetimer!

I Just Can't with Star Wars after this. Also, I don't have Disney+!

2 minutes ago, JZL said:

I wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up.

I would be a TERRIBLE astronaut, I need fresh air and variety! 

[marinw]

57 minutes ago, JZL said:

Admittedly, Delany can be a tough read but I still strongly recommend this one. 

I tried Dahlgren and gave up after the first chapter. I am now challenging myself with some Phillip K Dick short stories. I want to see someone try to adapt Martian Time Slip.

If you need some hard Sci-Fi, Project Hail Mary by Andrew Wier is pretty good.

Edited January 15, 2022 by marinw

[WildPlum]

It did wrap up the main plots in a satisfying way, although a lot of the threads were left hanging. I am in the camp that says the Laconia scenes didn't really add anything, except perhaps to re-introduce Duarte in a meaningful way so that when he told Marco he was done, you had a better feel for who he was.

I was amused by Holden listing all the threads left hanging (and he doesn't even know about Laconia). I tried not to see it as "meta" but rather as Holden being a worrier. Somewhat surprised that all the main cast survived.

The entire "angry red entities" in the ring somewhat confuse me. Naomi says that every ship transiting the Ring is taking a gamble. I guess with Earth being so damaged it might be worth the risk to get off earth and find a new future out beyond the Ring - going from likely certain slow death into potential immediate death or life on an unknown planet with unknown risks? Are they actually going to tell people transiting the Ring that immediate death is an potential outcome?

[Melina22]

19 minutes ago, JZL said:

So it's little wonder that The Expanse is my favorite show of all time

I've had the experience 3 times of watching part of an episode of a series, thinking "Bleh. Not for me." only to discover much later it was one of my all time favourite shows. First, Fringe, then BSG, then The Expanse. 

All through high school I combed our school library for SF anthologies, reading my way through many thick volumes and exposing myself to all of the best SF writers. My life at the time was dire - perhaps I loved the escapism, along with the sense of infinite possibility. 

I'm not sure what to watch now... 

[marinw]

8 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I'm not sure what to watch now...

I suggest For All Mankind over on Apple+. Producer Ronald Moore is a Star Trek: TNG alumni, as in Nareen Shankaar!

[Melina22]

Well, your last suggestion was fantastic, so I'll give it a try! 😊

[marinw]

We seem to have similar tastes @Melina22!

[Netfoot]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:19 AM, StarBrand said:

Durling the scene where Inaros was "inspiring" his crew, did anyone but me think, as they were all gathering around him, that was going to be the point where they all said "enough of this shit", and were about to beat him to death?

I was expecting someone to give him a poke with a good blade.

[JZL]

1 hour ago, WildPlum said:

It did wrap up the main plots in a satisfying way, although a lot of the threads were left hanging. I am in the camp that says the Laconia scenes didn't really add anything, except perhaps to re-introduce Duarte in a meaningful way so that when he told Marco he was done, you had a better feel for who he was.

I was amused by Holden listing all the threads left hanging (and he doesn't even know about Laconia). I tried not to see it as "meta" but rather as Holden being a worrier. Somewhat surprised that all the main cast survived.

The entire "angry red entities" in the ring somewhat confuse me. Naomi says that every ship transiting the Ring is taking a gamble. I guess with Earth being so damaged it might be worth the risk to get off earth and find a new future out beyond the Ring - going from likely certain slow death into potential immediate death or life on an unknown planet with unknown risks? Are they actually going to tell people transiting the Ring that immediate death is an potential outcome?

This is a head-scratcher to me, too.  The rings are dangerous, but let's go to great lengths to create the Transport Authority.  Maybe they're safe if you send in just the tip?  Er, I mean, low amounts of mass/energy?

1 hour ago, marinw said:

I suggest For All Mankind over on Apple+. Producer Ronald Moore is a Star Trek: TNG alumni, as in Nareen Shankaar!

Seconded.  Also, if like Michael Dorman from that show, you might try a little known off-beat dark comedy called Patriot, in which he stars, also on Prime.  It's "double-great."

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

Well, your last suggestion was fantastic, so I'll give it a try! 😊

I'm curious, what suggestion was that?

20 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I was expecting someone to give him a poke with a good blade.

Me, too, but it would have been too easy from a plot point of view.  Plus it needed to be either Filip, Naomi, or Drummer.  I also thought for a second Filip might shoot TBS right between the eyes, but that would have also been too easy.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Have to say that was a slick subterfuge move Marco pulled. Unfortunately you can only get away with that once, at least against the same enemy.

Didn't expect Rosenfeld to go so quickly. Filip didn't either, hah hah. Poor baby.

OMG, they lit Bobbie up. How did she survive that? Oh yeah, plot armor. 😉

Filip was like, "Fcuk your Beltalowda, Dad. You're going to get me killed out here." Stay a coward, you insufferable brat.

Poor Naomi, knowing she was about to kill her baby boy all grown up.

Marco's death was not quick enough for me. He had time to realize what was happening.

Phew, it's been a long ride. I loved all the tough, intelligent, fearless women, as well as the sex on a stick that was Amos. And I will certainly miss the inimitable style icon, Chrisjen Avasarala.

Bye, The Expanse. You were a rare gem.

(If anyone's taking a poll, count me as one who doesn't want Amazon or whoever to bring this show back for another season. The Expanse managed to avoid doing a Game of Thrones exit so let's not tempt fate. 🥳)

[Netfoot]

32 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The Expanse managed to avoid doing a Game of Thrones exit so let's not tempt fate.

Amen.

[marinw]

47 minutes ago, JZL said:

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Well, your last suggestion was fantastic, so I'll give it a try! 😊

I'm curious, what suggestion was that?

The Expanse, of cource😀

19 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

found this on the internet, what the what!!!!!!

I want, no, NEED an explanation!

[Melina22]

45 minutes ago, JZL said:

I'm curious, what suggestion was that?

The Expanse! This all started over on the Foundation thread, where Zonk and marinw kept comparing the show unfavourably with The Expanse. I'd only seen half an episode of The Expanse and didn't like it, but their comments convinced me to give it another try. And my obsession began. (As for Foundation, after having such high hopes, I never finished the first season.) 

[Tachi Rocinante]

22 hours ago, MrPissyPuppy said:

Yes,  I loved that!   There's also R(ick) Deckard (Blade Runner), D(uncan) Idaho (Dune) and J(ack) O'Neill (Stargate), plus S(arah) Connor (Terminator)!

Kevin Flynn (Tron)
Douglas Quaid (Total Recall)

[Tachi Rocinante]

I'm happy with it.  Like most, disappointed with only six episodes and the focus on Laconia, but I'm a book reader so I wasn't really surprised.

They could've shoehorned in a "vision" from Miller or video call from Havelock, but I guess they decided against it.

[raven]

1 hour ago, JZL said:

The rings are dangerous, but let's go to great lengths to create the Transport Authority.  Maybe they're safe if you send in just the tip?  Er, I mean, low amounts of mass/energy?

Pretty much...well, not the tip but low amounts of mass and energy :D    People are already going through the rings and would def continue to do so despite the danger.  The Transport Union is just what's needed here. 

1 hour ago, JZL said:

Me, too, but it would have been too easy from a plot point of view. 

Marco being done in by his own hubris was fitting, IMO.  Byeeeee!!

I'm also in the didn't-like-the-Laconia-stuff camp.  Maybe if it were better acted and less ridiculous - the kid with her master plan of moving her brother's body with no one noticing; somehow setting her phone  hand terminal as a distraction, etc.    It was nice to see Duarte to tell Marco to F off, though.

I would have liked more of the round table of heavy hitters.   Earth/Mars worked with the Belters against their common enemy but still were holding on to their prejudices.   It's nearly impossible to let decades of history go.  Holden saying "you want to show someone you trust them, you put your life in their hands".  This is what the Roci crew did ultimately - Bobbie and Amos trusting each other; Holden and Naomi trusting Clarissa.  Amos coming back around to trust Holden again.   Earth/Mars/Belters did it uneasily in time of war, can they do so now the war is over? 

Circling back to Laconia, the show is setting up a future that looks ominous so since they wanted to include it, I'm glad they didn't do an end of series coda.  I liked that we ended on a hopeful note - there's still all of these hanging threads but the family is together, let's just sit here for a minute.

[Quark]

Anna Hopkins made it! Congrats!

I thought this was great, although I would have liked to have seen more of the protomolecule stuff. I guess that's a potential spinoff though?

Also, I could not stop laughing at the noises that Amos was making after he ejected himself. Hilarious!

Filip's still alive. Meh.

I was certain that Holden was going to die, when Avasarala made that comment at the start of the episode about optimism will be the death of you (or something along those lines). Glad he didn't though.

[Nialla]

The Expanse has an ongoing thing about tweaking the opening credits. A lot of the background text/imagery ties into what's happening in  the plot. I usually have to wait for someone with better vision who's also read the books to explain it.

Did anyone else notice the change in the end credits? Towards the end of the part showing the ring, there are red flickers around the edge, then dead center of the ring. The entities are awake.

I definitely think TPTB want to do the last 3 books as another series or series of movies. As book readers have noted, there's a time jump, so stopping where they did makes sense. If they get a continuation, it's set up, if not, it's just loose threads.

[Auntie Anxiety]

On 1/14/2022 at 3:30 PM, Melina22 said:

Just kidding. It sounds good to me too.  Between zombie Xan tottering around, his sister planting her phone in the jungle MacGyver-style, and his mother trying to act more than mildly perturbed, I'm ready for your solution. 😁

Everyone in the Laconia segments was a terrible actor. So wooden.

[Nialla]

On 1/14/2022 at 7:11 PM, AnimeMania said:

I found this on the internet, what the what!!!!!!

That's not the full picture. Humina.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Nialla
add pic

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, Nialla said:

That's not the full picture. Humina.

The full picture is even more, what the what!!!!!!

[BlackberryJam]

10 hours ago, Nialla said:

That's not the full picture. Humina.

I ship it.

[Macbeth]

19 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Have to say that was a slick subterfuge move Marco pulled. Unfortunately you can only get away with that once, at least against the same enemy.

Didn't expect Rosenfeld to go so quickly. Filip didn't either, hah hah. Poor baby.

OMG, they lit Bobbie up. How did she survive that? Oh yeah, plot armor. 😉

Filip was like, "Fcuk your Beltalowda, Dad. You're going to get me killed out here." Stay a coward, you insufferable brat.

Poor Naomi, knowing she was about to kill her baby boy all grown up.

Marco's death was not quick enough for me. He had time to realize what was happening.

Phew, it's been a long ride. I loved all the tough, intelligent, fearless women, as well as the sex on a stick that was Amos. And I will certainly miss the inimitable style icon, Chrisjen Avasarala.

Bye, The Expanse. You were a rare gem.

(If anyone's taking a poll, count me as one who doesn't want Amazon or whoever to bring this show back for another season. The Expanse managed to avoid doing a Game of Thrones exit so let's not tempt fate. 🥳)

I don't want another season, especially given how they handled Laconia.

[Macbeth]

19 hours ago, JZL said:

This is a head-scratcher to me, too.  The rings are dangerous, but let's go to great lengths to create the Transport Authority.  Maybe they're safe if you send in just the tip?  Er, I mean, low amounts of mass/energy?

Seconded.  Also, if like Michael Dorman from that show, you might try a little known off-beat dark comedy called Patriot, in which he stars, also on Prime.  It's "double-great."

I'm curious, what suggestion was that?

Me, too, but it would have been too easy from a plot point of view.  Plus it needed to be either Filip, Naomi, or Drummer.  I also thought for a second Filip might shoot TBS right between the eyes, but that would have also been too easy.

Now that they know that entry into the rings can cause a ship to disappear, in theory they can coordinate with ships to make sure they don't have so many entering or leaving at the same time.

[Clanstarling]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:56 AM, marinw said:

I grew up watching the original Star Trek and reading the YA Robert Heinlein, so there's my origin story. 

I grew up with a fascination with the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo astronauts. Science fiction was a natural progression for me.

21 hours ago, marinw said:

I tried Dahlgren and gave up after the first chapter. I am now challenging myself with some Phillip K Dick short stories. I want to see someone try to adapt Martian Time Slip.

I did the same with Dahlgren.

[Tachi Rocinante]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I grew up with a fascination with the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo astronauts. Science fiction was a natural progression for me.

I did the same with Dahlgren.

I can recommend the "Takeshi Kovacs" trilogy from Richard Morgan, which was adapted for TV as Altered Carbon (the title of the first book). I haven't seen the show yet though.

[JZL]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I grew up with a fascination with the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo astronauts. Science fiction was a natural progression for me.

I did the same with Dahlgren.

TBH, me, too, and that one is Delany's break-out novel.  Go figure.  He won a Hugo for Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones, a short story, which was very good, but it's been decades since I read it.  I also read Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand, which was good, and The Einstein Intersection, which wasn't.

Regarding the above mention of Martian Time-slip, iirc that would be hard to put on the screen, but in the hand of the right sfx guru, it might be pretty interesting.  Or maybe they could cell-animate it like A Scanner Darkly.

[Hanahope]

I'm surprised that Filip hasn't contacted Naomi in the time jump between the end of the war and Holden screwing over Chrisjen (which was deserved).  clearly he turned his back on Marco for good, so was he that upset over Marco's death that he won't see his mom again?  Its not like she's hiding, he can easily figure out where the Rocinate went.  

definitely glad to see the Belt get some real power.  Drummer was 100% right.  and she is the right person for that power.

the only reason i saw for Laconia was the set up for a sequel show or movie.  I really didn't need to know the back story on Laconia's leader, unless we are supposed to see/hear about Duarte again in a later show.  otherwise, the story with the kids was irrelevant to the Expanse story line.  but did we really need that in the Expanse?  i would expect that fans of the show would flock to another show in the Expanse universe (haha) and all you need to do was put the whole Laconia bits into a prologue.  we didn't have to know Duarte's background for the snippet we got in the show of him denying aid to Marco.  just do the scene, make us wonder a little bit of why (not that it might have made a difference anyway).  then when we see the prologue, we get the background on it.

 

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I'm surprised that Filip hasn't contacted Naomi in the time jump between the end of the war and Holden screwing over Chrisjen (which was deserved).  clearly he turned his back on Marco for good, so was he that upset over Marco's death that he won't see his mom again?  Its not like she's hiding, he can easily figure out where the Rocinate went.  

He was complicit in one of humanity's worst acts of terrorism ever - might want to keep his head down for a while and keeping Mum out of trouble.

[Zaffy]

What a great show and what a satisfying finale!
ok the Laconia parts were like belonging in another show and I think they just stole time from our beloved heroes, but oh well, nobody is perfect.

I am glad for the happy ending, I am sad I won't see our heroes again.

Marco was a very annoying almost one-dimensional villain, I think they should had made him more likable. Oppression can create  leaders like him and he wasn't completely wrong (as Holden pointed out). But they made him a sociopath murderous maniac. Which was kind of weird for a show that had such a great character's development.

Am I the only one that I felt a bit sad when Holden pointed Drummer for his place?
I mean.. I really wanted a spin off with Bobbie and Drummer in the same spaceship transferring Chrisjen to whatever planet/station she needed to be 😄

Farewell Expanse!
Thank you so much for all the fun.

[JZL]

I guess I can peak at the book wiki now, but I wonder if Laconia was some sort of stay-true-to-the-books thingamajig.  I just can't see them using those little segments as some sort of trailer for a spin-off or movie that may never happen.

What the hell is it with these six episode seasons? et tu, South Park?

[xaxat]

No Apone ☹️.

Otherwise, I thought it was fantastic. I wanted more, but the show didn't overstay its welcome. Guess I'll have to read the books to find out the fate of the entities and the half-alien Pet Sematary child.

Edited January 16, 2022 by xaxat

[marinw]

Just rewatched. Where did the negotiations and crowd scene take place? Ceres? I got the impression that some time had passed between the two scenes.

Edited January 17, 2022 by marinw

[Netfoot]

4 hours ago, Zaffy said:

ok the Laconia parts were like belonging in another show and I think they just stole time from our beloved heroes, but oh well, nobody is perfect.

I'm starting to wonder if they were contractually obligated to help promote the remainder of the book series. It would be a blow to James S. A. Corey for the  viewing public at large to say to themselves "Show's over; no need to buy any more books!"

[Nialla]

Wes posted another version of The White Outfit on his Instagram.

 

[marinw]

And one more thing: RIP Liang Walker😪 He who both wanted to kill Marco, but would also have boned Pretty Eyes and Perfect Hair if given the chance. Feelings are complicated.

Edited January 17, 2022 by marinw

[Eulipian 5k]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:03 PM, NJRadioGuy said:

Earlier this week I put in two Dolby Atmos speakers in the ceiling, and added a second subwoofer to the mix, along with bass shakers in the seats.

Bravo! LOUD AND BIG is the only way to watch the spectacle.  Get the Bliss Lite for that protomolecule nebula effect.

Avasarala’s “More coffee” was the way to reel in Holden and us; Ply them with stimulants and they’ll come around. Loved the space battles. Always had faith they would pull it off.

Did anyone in any betting pool have the “Ring Entities”, the ultimate Checkov’s gun, as the one to get Marco?

Seems the only people TBS killed after Holden let him live were the two officers on the Granicus & Lauber(?).

Will Michigan & Josep re join the Drummer poly am belter fam? And who will police Erich’s new crime empire,? (lol).

On to Laconia!

[wanderingstar]

Winston Duarte to Marco Inaros

Edited January 17, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[Tachi Rocinante]

21 hours ago, xaxat said:

No Apone ☹️.

No Wierzbowski or Spunkmeyer, either!  😁

[Netfoot]

Well, it's been amazing... but it's over. And there's no sense flogging a dead horse.

So, I'm oudda here, folks. 

[shrewd.buddha]

All in all, it was a nice sendoff. 
It was a shame that the space battles - which were probably costly CGI - came off as slightly confusing. It didn't help that most of the ships had similar profiles. 

At least Marco came to an end.  I would have preferred that his demise had not been so impersonal or indirect.  And since Rosenfeld (Marco's 2nd-in-command) died in battle, it seemed an odd reason for Fillip to decide that was his final straw.  

[edhopper]

It wasn't Breaking Bad Final Season good, but it was pretty damn close.

I thought focusing on Marcos' eyeliner face as he realized he was F*^&ed was perfect.

And everybody got a great highlight in the finale.

Can't ask for more, except less Laconia and that annoying girl.

[edhopper]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:20 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

All in all, it was a nice sendoff. 
It was a shame that the space battles - which were probably costly CGI - came off as slightly confusing. It didn't help that most of the ships had similar profiles. 

At least Marco came to an end.  I would have preferred that his demise had not been so impersonal or indirect.  And since Rosenfeld (Marco's 2nd-in-command) died in battle, it seemed an odd reason for Fillip to decide that was his final straw.  

I think the last straw was when he found out that Marcos was responsible for the Ceres explosions. And then his indifference to Rosenfeld.  The celebration gave him the opportunity to leave.

[marinw]

I wonder how Peaches feels about Bobbie flying the Razorback, if the Roci crew still have that ship.

[tennisgurl]

7 minutes ago, edhopper said:

I think the last straw was when he found out that Marcos was responsible for the Ceres explosions. And then his indifference to Rosenfeld.  The celebration gave him the opportunity to leave.

All of that, plus Marco basically saying that he would be ok with it if Filip himself died. Even when Marco talked about how hard it would be if he was killed, it was framed like "I would lose a piece of myself" instead of it having anything to do with Filip himself as a person. He sees Filip as an extension of himself, not as an independent son that he loves, Marco is such a narcissist he can only see people as tools and extensions of his own greatness, it must have finally hit him that everything Naomi said about him was true. 

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

All of that, plus Marco basically saying that he would be ok with it if Filip himself died. Even when Marco talked about how hard it would be if he was killed, it was framed like "I would lose a piece of myself" instead of it having anything to do with Filip himself as a person. He sees Filip as an extension of himself, not as an independent son that he loves, Marco is such a narcissist he can only see people as tools and extensions of his own greatness, it must have finally hit him that everything Naomi said about him was true. 

Along with the fact that Filip found out Marco is the one who ordered the bombing at Ceres.

[Tachi Rocinante]

20 hours ago, marinw said:

I wonder how Peaches feels about Bobbie flying the Razorback, if the Roci crew still have that ship.

IMO, she probably doesn't care too much.  The ship was Julie's, and there wasn't much love lost between them. 

[xaxat]

I just rewatched the premier episode and realized that the show starts with Holden not wanting the job (XO of the Cant) and ends with Holden not wanting the job.

Edited January 22, 2022 by xaxat