S01.E10: Unbroken Circle

[txhorns79]

Series finale.

Streaming 1/13/22.

[gibasi]

So we are just going to ignore that Tyler is this evil guy who puts bombs on kids and has them blow themselves up? One performance of Hamlet and his issues disappear?

And why was Miranda so sure everyone in the airport was not sick but everyone on the plane was?

The show had some moments but overall I hated it. 

[MrPissyPuppy]

Well.   I hate the changes to the Tyler/Prophet story from the book (which I read fairly late into the show) and thought the whole Hamlet therapy bit was awful.   I think they were attempting to bring everything full circle and tie all the characters together at the end, but blah.    The first episodes were far stronger than the last few; this show did not need 10 episodes (which is true of many many shows).  

[Nellise]

Somehow they managed to make an even dumber version of the Superman/Batman Martha thing: "my family was killed by hurricane Hugo!" "Omg I was named after that deadly hurricane because my parents are weird! I'll definitely listen to whatever you say now, random person".

I'm assuming they explained it some time earlier, but Tyler just had Hamlet memorized?

They really tried going for the Leftovers type emotional finale but forgot to make any of these characters worth caring about.

[gibasi]

11 minutes ago, Nellise said:

I'm assuming they explained it some time earlier, but Tyler just had Hamlet memorized?

They really tried going for the Leftovers type emotional finale but forgot to make any of these characters worth caring about.

No, of course it was not explained that Tyler had Hamlet memorized. Just like it was never explained why this one stupid book, Station Eleven, was so great or had such a pull on these dumb kids. They had access to all the books in any library and this is the one they chose to memorize?

I didn’t care about any of the characters either with the exception of Jeevan and Frank.

 

 

[HappyHanna]

4 hours ago, gibasi said:

So we are just going to ignore that Tyler is this evil guy who puts bombs on kids and has them blow themselves up? One performance of Hamlet and his issues disappear?

And why was Miranda so sure everyone in the airport was not sick but everyone on the plane was?

The show had some moments but overall I hated it. 

Ditto.  To quote Clark "what the F" 

And not to mention at the end, the now happy twisted Pied Piper and his band of illiterate homicidal children just go off into the sunset (with elderly mom, who is totally prepared for a life on the road after a lifetime of relative comfort)?  ?!?!?! 

[Jodithgrace]

I had forgotten a lot of the book, even though I had read it twice, so I reread it last week. Big mistake. Even forgetting that the book existed and taking this series on its own merits, it wasn't very good.

The whole Shakespeare as family therapy thing was ridiculous. For one thing, Hamlet and Gertrude don't come to any kind of understanding in the play. It's not a feel good family show. And then, speaking as an amateur actor, memorization is the least part of doing Shakespeare. It takes practice and training to do it even passably. 

And the children with bombs thing was never adequately explained. There was one line, a couple of episodes back, where "David" says that the bombs weren't his idea but that of one of the other children, when he was recovering from his stab wound. I never caught the name of who it was. Then they didn't even include that in the previouslies, so when the kid shows up with a bomb after the play (I think that's what it was, but of course it was too dark to actually see anything) most people will think it was the Prophet's doing. Luckily, Kristen was able to diffuse that by reading from the magic book. Then again, maybe this time it WAS the Prophet's doing, who knows. I was totally confused by that point. 

I did like seeing the Javeen/Kristen reunion, though I guess it was offscreen that he finally explained what happened to him to keep him from returning. I'm glad that the airport will be added to the circle. 

Emily St. John Mandel was a producer, so presumably she signed off on the changes to her book. Then again, Stephen King was involved with the Amazon series of The Stand, which was so bad that I quit watching about three episodes in. I would think that authors would be more protective of their work, but I guess money talks. 

[Nellise]

2 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

I did like seeing the Javeen/Kristen reunion, though I guess it was offscreen that he finally explained what happened to him to keep him from returning.

This was a pretty major failure I thought (on top of everything else). One of the major themes seemed to be loss/leaving and they didn't show us Kirsten learning that she hadn't been abandoned.

[Armchair Critic]

Yes they left the best part off screen, I wanted to see Jeevan (who was my favorite character) tell Kirsten that he didn't abandon her on purpose and that he did come back for her.

I kept waiting for the place to get blown up or people to get killed. Also Jeevan hadn't even treated the Conductor so Clark and Elizabeth were just going to let her die?

Tyler is no hero, he stole those kids away from their families.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Armchair Critic

[aghst]

Everyone is suppose to have a happy ending it seems.

First Alex wants to stay at the airport but then arms Tyler with the knife that killed Frank.  What exactly is Tyler's beef with Clark?  If Clark didn't say "I loved him too Tyler" he would have disembowled Clark right on stage?

Then she joins the Children of the Corn, along with Elizabeth, who's just happy to follow his son into the wilderness.  She's not young any more and she wants to be with her son but she gives up creature comforts or basic necessities like a stable food supply that easily?  Did Tyler tell her about the Red Bandanas?  Did she get a look at the children, who hasn't had a good shower in how long and wearing twigs as hats?

Are we suppose to believe that Shakespeare is so cathartic and uplifting -- after all it facilitated reunions -- that it sustains all these survivors of the Before?  Not food or electricity but food for the soul?

Thus the TS will keep circling, adding more dates to its tour.  They want to keep art (which is from the Before) alive but not try to rebuild towards the Before.  Maybe artists are overrepresented among these characters.  Not enough engineers, scientists or builders, who might be more inclined to rebuild civilization.  

In Dr. Chaudry, it seems Kristen took Jeevan for granted, preferred Frank, didn't really engage with Jeevan in the cabin, preferred reading the book.  Maybe over the years she came to miss him, appreciated what he did, including trying to protect her the first year even when she didn't show much gratitude.

So she seemed to be heartened, truly moved to see that he was alive again, even before he explained to her what happened.

Is the message suppose to that what matters is people, the meaningful relationships, which endure through a pandemic?  As long as they're together, putting on plays for each other, it's all good?

Even after these tearful and joyful reunions, is it enough just to be together with the ones you love?  We know in this world, relationships often fracture over money and other disagreements.  Money or the way to obtain material needs and comforts doesn't make you happy.  But without these things, you might be stressed enough to be unhappy, even with those whom you love.

In Station Eleven, we see that only the MoC is able to grow food, keep the lights on (literally), have some kind of stability and security.  They never show how the other peoples achieve these things.  How does Tyler feed himself and all those kids?  After a few months, Elizabeth may be famished and cursing Tyler.  And the TS may be bartering performances for food but if there's a tough winter or drought and people don't have any surplus, then the TS may have to become farmers themselves, turn those instruments into plows.

 

 

[Haleth]

After watching last night I was disappointed and angry.  So all Tyler needed was a hug from his mommy and he'd stop blowing up other people's communities and stealing their children?  He was a psychopath, not Peter Pan.  But after sleeping on it, I dunno.  Maybe it was more satisfying to make him a redeemable character and to give Elizabeth and Clark closure.  Life doesn't really work that way but fiction does.

I did like that Kirsten and Jeevan reunited.  I was afraid he had left the MoC after Sarah died.  I'm glad Kirsten didn't immediately accuse him of leaving her, but apparently allowed him to explain what had happened to him.  

Danielle Deadwyler (Miranda) was the stand out in this episode.  

[txhorns79]

8 hours ago, aghst said:

What exactly is Tyler's beef with Clark?

If I remember right, as a child, he overheard Clark wanting to get rid of him from the airport. 

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Danielle Deadwyler (Miranda) was the stand out in this episode.  

I thought she was the stand out of the episode.  I found her to be very moving, and was hoping to the end we'd find out that she somehow had survived.  Alas, it was not to be. 

Quote

So she seemed to be heartened, truly moved to see that he was alive again, even before he explained to her what happened.

She mentioned earlier in the episode to Elizabeth(?) with regards to Tyler about how rare it was to get someone back who had been lost, so I saw her immediate embrace of Jeevan as her practicing what she was preaching.

[Melina22]

I had SUCH mixed feelings about this episode. The creeping child mob with the landmines cast a pall over the whole episode for me. So did Alex handing Tyler a knife. (What could possibly go wrong?) So did Tyler's instant redemption from psycho murderous cult leader to sweet misunderstood guy. 

On 1/13/2022 at 3:48 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I did like seeing the Javeen/Kristen reunion, though I guess it was offscreen that he finally explained what happened to him to keep him from returning. I'm glad that the airport will be added to the circle. 

Yes, this was touching. I liked it. 

13 hours ago, aghst said:

Did she get a look at the children, who hasn't had a good shower in how long and wearing twigs as hats?

This cracked me up. As Elizabeth wandered off with the horde of lost children I thought "She's the Wendy! Wow, she's going to regret agreeing to be the mother figure to 100 dirty, needy children." She'll run screaming back to the airport paradise in no time, or as soon as she runs out of chunky costume jewelry. 

The last scene was very touching, but as Jeevan hobbled off I thought," Seriously? He's going to walk home? They couldn't find him a ride?" and "So I guess the Red Bandanas aren't a thing anymore? He's safe to walk home totally alone?" 

Finally, the whole basis of the series is confusing. Miranda writes a graphic novel with a character named after a hurricane but also the name of the pilot she contacts to protect a bunch of airport people from a pandemic. The novel also obsesses Arthur's little friend, and helps his son create a weird, murderous child cult. So the point is? 

I really need to reread the book. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Melina22

[aghst]

Patrick Somerville is on The Ringer Watch podcast with Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald.

He said Alex is Rose, the baby that Jeevan helped deliver in episode 9 when younger Tyler came to the birth center afterwards.

So does Alex know Tyler from then or is she suppose to have some mystical connection and that is why she follows him?

She may want to get away from Kirsten and the TS but follow Tyler into the wilderness?

After she talked about staying in the MoC for a year?

 

[tljgator]

In contrast to most everyone here, I liked it. Were there problems throughout the series? Sure. To me, this felt like more of a show centered on a particular vibe that needed hand-waving for "weird shit happens during an apocalypse in a sci-fi novel" -- but it made me feel and think and that's more than I expected going into it.

BTW, there are a good number of answers to the questions y'all are asking in the interview I linked to in the media thread...the showrunner recounts his choices on a lot of the issues you guys note (you probably won't like the answers, but at least you can read what he intended, lol).

[overtherainbow]

I liked it too. They definitely wrapped it up far too well though. Something was missing and I would have preferred more explanation about David/The Prophet them having fleshed out more of the other characters. Maybe some things would have made more sense if I'd read the book but it was definitely an interesting concept.

Edited January 15, 2022 by overtherainbow

[Nellise]

6 hours ago, tljgator said:

BTW, there are a good number of answers to the questions y'all are asking in the interview I linked to in the media thread...the showrunner recounts his choices on a lot of the issues you guys note (you probably won't like the answers, but at least you can read what he intended, lol).

This is what I've noticed in a lot of the positive reviews of this show, they quote the showrunner in what he wanted to do and they don't really review what the show actually was or handwave away all the stuff that doesn't make sense. There are a lot of people who make shows or movies that have grand, interesting ideas, but the hard part is getting that across on screen. So if you're going based on what the creator says versus what they actually produced, of course things will seem more interesting (or at least justified). But that does not make what they produced any better. Most people don't intend to make something bad or mediocre. We shouldn't have to go to outside sources to "really" get it. As a counter-example to this show: the Leftovers is extremely weird and metaphysical, but the characters' actions make sense within the show and so it's more believable despite being more fantastical.

[chocolatine]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

He said Alex is Rose, the baby that Jeevan helped deliver in episode 9 when younger Tyler came to the birth center afterwards.

That doesn't make sense. We saw flashbacks of young Kirsten playing with baby Alex, so Alex must have been a child of a TS member.

It also doesn't make sense that the pilot of the plane listened to Miranda, a complete stranger, asking him to essentially sign his own death warrant. He was in the cockpit and not coughing when he spoke to her, so there was still a chance he could have survived. But he just took her word for it that everyone at the airport was otherwise safe and sacrificed himself?

One thing I'm not sure I understood, was the girl with the dirty face wearing a body bomb? Her torso seemed to be wrapped in wire and a bunch of tin can tabs, and in her bag was what, explosives? So was she planning to blow everyone up and Kirsten showing her the book changed her mind? That was confusing, but I don't care enough to go back and rewatch.

The book was really good and I think the show would have been much better had it stuck to the book plot.

[Melina22]

19 minutes ago, Nellise said:

We shouldn't have to go to outside sources to "really" get it.

I totally agree. I read in one of the interviews that the show runner said the series was "about joy" and how Shakespeare was like a universal language for human emotion. For a second I felt bad I didn't experience either of these things watching the show, then I reminded myself that we feel what we feel. I can't "make" myself feel what the show runner intended. In some scenes I did, but in a lot I didn't, not at all. 

I do question if it's still true that most people love Shakespeare, or can even relate to it. I sense this is a lot rarer than it used to be among the general population. 

[bilgistic]

31 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I totally agree. I read in one of the interviews that the show runner said the series was "about joy" and how Shakespeare was like a universal language for human emotion. For a second I felt bad I didn't experience either of these things watching the show, then I reminded myself that we feel what we feel. I can't "make" myself feel what the show runner intended. In some scenes I did, but in a lot I didn't, not at all. 

I do question if it's still true that most people love Shakespeare, or can even relate to it. I sense this is a lot rarer than it used to be among the general population. 

I have an English degree. I barely got through the Shakespeare class I took 25-odd years ago. It's an extremely limited viewpoint to equate Shakespeare—a cishetero white Englishman alive 400 years ago—with the expression of human emotion. His writing is certainly lovely, but it's hardly accessible nor is it universally applicable.

[MJ Frog]

I certainly had my issues with this show and this episode in particular, but the heart of this story (for me at least) had enough power to force a very unmanly sound out of me when Kirsten saw Jeevan. I was genuinely surprised when I spotted him at the after party, and it was nothing but tears for me for the rest of the episode. Whatever else they got wrong, which was a lot, they got that right.

I very much disagree about Shakespeare. The langauge is difficult and very alien for a modern audience, so I fear his works will keep slipping further into obscurity. But I don't think his time, or his demographics, disqualify him as someone who had an enormous amount to say about the human experience. The wonder of it is just how remarkably applicable it is all these centuries later, and how much humanity there is to be found in it. People really haven't changed that much, or at least their feelings haven't.

Now the way Shakespeare was used here? Good Christ. 

The actress who played Miranda was mesmerizing. I kept wondering how good she would be in something where she was given dialogue that an actual person might speak. 

Alex was incredibly irritating, if only because I could never figure out who she was, what she wanted, or where her sympathies lay. She was a cypher, but not in a good way. More in a we-have-no-idea-what-to-do-with-this-character way.

[Kenz]

I wonder if the series had been not been spaced out week to week if it would have been better. I had to stop in places when the story jumped around in time to remember what had happened several weeks ago. My favorite episodes were with any episode that had Jeevan and earlier on with Frank and young Kirsten.  I remained confused throughout the series., trying my best to make sense of it. I read the book years ago, but that didn't help as I am old and can't remember too much about it, except that I enjoyed it.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Kenz

[Nellise]

9 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Now the way Shakespeare was used here? Good Christ.

You know what would be uplifting for people that just had all of their friends and loved ones die? A play in a language they can't really understand and where everybody dies.

[Hanahope]

I liked the adaption.  Clearly it was made to have a more hopeful ending for many characters, which i liked, given that usually most post-pandemic shows are so bleak.  I have to echo Clark's "wtf" with Tyler's kid cult being way much larger than previously indicated.  Unless it was intended to be other people from the MoC also leaving the airport to explore the area.       

Sure, not everything made complete sense, but that's ok with me.  

i would think that the airport is one of the better places to stay for winter, so not sure why the TS was leaving with winter coming on.

[The Pretender]

I've really enjoyed this show as well. I haven't read the book or anything that the showrunner or anyone else shared about the show. Still enjoyed it. I think the acting has been phenomenal. It's been odd and hit close to home even if so foreign in every way. I've been feeling emotional during every frickin episode for reasons I've never been able to pinpoint but I'm very grateful for it & this show. 

[SunnyBeBe]

For me, Tyler was not redeemable, so that didn’t work for me. And why choose to go there?  They killed beloved characters. Why spare a sociopathic child killer? I fail to see the point.  His mom could have mourned him for real……and moved on.  
 

I never fully understood the obsession with the book that Kirsten loved.  I suppose I have to go back and rewatch it, but I don’t think I could endure it.  If anyone can say in a short description I’d appreciate it.  
 

 Kristen came off as a very selfish person, who grew more clueless over time, imo.  Her obsession and demanding behavior almost got Jeevan killed early on. And, her demands held them up a day and made them available to be confronted by the intruder.   And, she enables Tyler later on…….etc.  I really want to like a story of hope after the world almost ends, but…..there were so many issues with this series.  I see how something similar, but different might work.  Perhaps, the book is better.  Idk.  I did like the soundtrack a lot. 
 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Kristen came off as a very selfish person, who grew more clueless over time, imo.  Her obsession and demanding behavior almost got Jeevan killed early on.

I can kind of understand her being obsessed with it initially because it was the last thing given to her by someone from "before" who had meant a lot to her. Later that day she watched that person die on stage, then the pandemic erupted and she had to go home with a stranger, then she got the texts that both her parents were dead, then Frank, to whom she had grown attached, was killed. That's a lot of trauma for anyone, let alone a child, so I don't mind that she sought refuge in the book for the first year or two. But what doesn't make sense is her (and Tyler) still being obsessed with it twenty years later. There are many other books they both had access to while scavenging for supplies in dead people's houses, so it doesn't make sense that they kept reading the same one over and over for twenty years.

[SunnyBeBe]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I can kind of understand her being obsessed with it initially because it was the last thing given to her by someone from "before" who had meant a lot to her. Later that day she watched that person die on stage, then the pandemic erupted and she had to go home with a stranger, then she got the texts that both her parents were dead, then Frank, to whom she had grown attached, was killed. That's a lot of trauma for anyone, let alone a child, so I don't mind that she sought refuge in the book for the first year or two. But what doesn't make sense is her (and Tyler) still being obsessed with it twenty years later. There are many other books they both had access to while scavenging for supplies in dead people's houses, so it doesn't make sense that they kept reading the same one over and over for twenty years.

I see your points.  Also, perhaps I don’t fully understand what she was reading.  

[violet and green]

Halfway through that final episode, I paused the stream and said out loud, Oh thank god it will all be over soon.

I am so glad Jeevan was reunited with adult Kirsten - I liked her for the first time in that moment. The whole series, I was really longing for them to continue the young Kirsten and Jeevan story from the end of episode one. I thought Mackenzie Davis was completely miscast as adult Kirsten. All she had in common with Matilda Lawler was a pair of eyebrows. Her emotional range just wasn't there, or tonally in any way similar.

I loved Jeevan and young Kirsten and Frank (and Arthur, and Miranda, and even pre-pandemic Clark) and couldn't give a fig for the Travelling Circus characters or their story. So many unanswered questions that I am not going to go back to watch, but what really stands out in my mind apart from the sudden enormity of the feral children tribe, going from twenty-odd to hundreds of them, was did Elizabeth really leave the airport without a suitcase full of chunky jewellery and winsome layered looks, and what did they all eat - circus and ferals - given they made no effort to produce food?

It had so much potential. I won't be reading the book. I guess it was about making family and the importance of story to humans...

Edited January 17, 2022 by violet and green
typo

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

It had so much potential. I won't be reading the book. I guess it was about making family and the importance of story to humans...

The book is very good! (Not quite great, but I have a really high bar for books.) Everything that didn't make sense in the show was something the show-runners decided to change from the source material. Don't let their bad decisions keep you from a very enjoyable read.

Edited January 17, 2022 by chocolatine

[violet and green]

 

45 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The book is very good! (Not quite great, but I have a really high bar for books.) Everything that didn't make sense in the show was something the show-runners decided to change from the source material. Don't let their bad decisions keep you from a very enjoyable read.

That's really kind, but I am just not at all tempted. Especially as the only thing I really liked was the relationship between Jeevan and young Kirsten, and that was apparently not in the book!

Something that really bothered me throughout the series was the size, and thickness especially, of the sacred text/graphic novel. In some scenes it was little more than pamphlet thick (in fact, when Miranda first presented it I assumed it was a brochure for something architectural she had designed! had to go back and rewatch that scene, I was so confused). In others - including scenes from early on, pre-pandemic, and before it was swelled by time, and weather, and rereading - it was easily close to a hundred pages thick. Weird. Or was that meaningful...

 

[General Days]

On 1/13/2022 at 2:48 PM, Jodithgrace said:

Emily St. John Mandel was a producer, so presumably she signed off on the changes to her book. Then again, Stephen King was involved with the Amazon series of The Stand, which was so bad that I quit watching about three episodes in. I would think that authors would be more protective of their work, but I guess money talks. 

 

A lot of people who get producer credits don't work as producers. It can be a contractual thing to guarantee compensation.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 3:46 PM, aghst said:

Patrick Somerville is on The Ringer Watch podcast with Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald.

He said Alex is Rose, the baby that Jeevan helped deliver in episode 9 when younger Tyler came to the birth center afterwards.

So does Alex know Tyler from then or is she suppose to have some mystical connection and that is why she follows him?

She may want to get away from Kirsten and the TS but follow Tyler into the wilderness?

After she talked about staying in the MoC for a year?

 

 

(see after next quote)

 

On 1/14/2022 at 11:40 PM, chocolatine said:

That doesn't make sense. We saw flashbacks of young Kirsten playing with baby Alex, so Alex must have been a child of a TS member.

 

Rose was the name of the mother who died (whom Jeevan was trying to help deliver), but I thought it was pretty clear the baby was supposed to be Alex.

Rose was the pregnant mother who was always hanging out in the department store entry way, waiting for someone named David. After she died, in episode 1.9 a hooded boy (who I at least took to be young Tyler) showed up, and said he was her "husband."

David is the fake name Tyler used as an adult, when he met Alex and Kirsten and told them his wife, Rose, died.

Flashbacks in an earlier episode showed child-Kirsten caring for baby Alex. Given how this is very much an it's-all-connected series (I didn't read the book), I think it's safe to say Alex is the baby of the mom named Rose, who died while Jeevan was attending at the department store labor center.

 

On 1/16/2022 at 9:17 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

 Kristen came off as a very selfish person, who grew more clueless over time, imo.  Her obsession and demanding behavior almost got Jeevan killed early on. And, her demands held them up a day and made them available to be confronted by the intruder.   And, she enables Tyler later on…….etc.  I really want to like a story of hope after the world almost ends, but…..there were so many issues with this series.  I see how something similar, but different might work.  Perhaps, the book is better.  Idk.  I did like the soundtrack a lot. 
 

 

Child-Kirsten's obsession with the book didn't almost get Jeevan killed.  Jeevan stealing her book and throwing it away almost got Jeevan killed. Jeevan not knowing how to say to a kid, "Neither you nor I can go out in the middle of the night to look for a book I tossed across from the snare where 'Big Daddy' wolf hunts. We'll go in the morning," almost got Jeevan killed.

Little kids make demands all the time. They are self-centered (not selfish) because they haven't lived that long yet, and their factory settings are way dialed up on want/need, to keep them alive. It's up to adults to set limits. 

Adult-Kirsten is just a head case, but who wouldn't be after that life? I'm not trying to make you like her. I don't think the show did a good job of making her (or anyone, really) all that rootable, but she was a traumatized little girl for much of the stuff you mentioned above.

[Affogato]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:17 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

 

I never fully understood the obsession with the book that Kirsten loved.  I suppose I have to go back and rewatch it, but I don’t think I could endure it.  If anyone can say in a short description I’d appreciate it.

 

Arthur was a father figure to Kirsten and an actual father to Tyler and the book was a connection to Arthur, but also a connection to the world they had lost. Apparently Miranda, who wrote it to communicate her feeling of loss of her life and family after hurricane Hugo, really wrote something which resonated with these children in their time of trauma and transformation.

I think Kirsten got a feeling of security from reliving the connection to Arthur, and Tyler got a sense of, perhaps, what his father wanted him to become.

I think this show is about how art helps you figure out your life and your problems. Miranda used writing her book to figure out her feelings and experiences, Kirsten and Tyler used reading the book to try to figure out themselves, and they worked it out together, using Hamlet as a foil.

I  think that Clarke's problem was that he had no art. But I may be wrong there.

Okay, I've had a number of books--more when I was younger--that I revisited over and over again.Then one day I would understand what I needed to learn from the books and I don't revisit them anymore. Usually what I figure out is fairly obvious, but I needed to go on a journey to get there. So this is  what I think this is about and I apparently liked this a lot more than most people did. Honestly I liked Kirsten more than most people did, too.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Affogato

[SunnyBeBe]

I appreciate your perspective.  I wonder if it would be helpful if there was a way to actually read the comic book about astronauts that was so impactful to the kids.  It seemed the book wasn’t really about Arthur, but men in space suits…..?

[Affogato]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I appreciate your perspective.  I wonder if it would be helpful if there was a way to actually read the comic book about astronauts that was so impactful to the kids.  It seemed the book wasn’t really about Arthur, but men in space suits…..?

It was a fictionalized account of Miranda's transformative experiences when she lost her family and her world to a hurricane and (presumably) the aftermath. This was not dissimilar to what Kirsten and Tyler experienced. I don't know if someone is putting out the graphic novel. It wouldn't be unprecedented with TV shows.

[aghst]

24 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I appreciate your perspective.  I wonder if it would be helpful if there was a way to actually read the comic book about astronauts that was so impactful to the kids.  It seemed the book wasn’t really about Arthur, but men in space suits…..?

I remember a game on the Sega Genesis that I got obsessed with finishing.  Games in those days didn't have much storytelling.

So the gist of the game is you fight aliens through all these levels and IIRC, there were little animated sections between levels which told snippets of a story.

The hero character that you controlled was on some distant planet and the aliens he killed were bent on invading the earth, using humans for some awful purpose like using them for food or something like that.

In the end, when you beat the game, the character saved the earth from invasion.

But he's stranded on the planet and no other person will ever know what he did because there is no hope of him getting back.

The bittersweet ending kind of resonated, though I didn't play the game again, but thought about it for awhile afterwards.

[xaxat]

Apparently this show is kind of divisive, but I though it was fantastic. For a wide variety of reasons that would probably take a page to explain. I thought it was an interesting exploration into the meaning of fate, art and loss backed by exceptional acting.

One quick note. The music was great. I Shazzamed the hell out of it. In addition, the original arrangements were also notable. Frank rapping A Tribe Called Quest, the song created from the voices of the dead family, the sousaphone arrangement of Midnight Train to Georgia. 

I am definitely headed to a rewatch.

 

[SunnyBeBe]

I did enjoy the music….especially Frank’s rapping.  Oh,  I did notice the song Midnight Train To Georgia……..emphasis on GA…as in GA Flu.  Lol

[pasdetrois]

I FFed through much of this series, especially the Traveling Symphony bits. Too many wacky characters to focus on and care about.

I snorted at Elizabeth's ready access to expensive clothing and jewelry and wondered if Iris Apfel had wandered into the terminal.

I always love scenes where people are living inside well-stocked stores. It would be fun for a week, as long as there is a supply of food and books.

My family laughs at me because I hate the trope of childbirth scenes, which provide cheap drama - all that frantic screaming and huffing. I had to leave the room when seven women gave birth at once.

Snark aside, I loved being introduced to talented actors who are new to me. Little Kirsten, Javeen and Miranda. They rose above the material.

[shrewd.buddha]

I was pleased and relieved that the show managed to come to a mostly satisfying and non-tragic conclusion. 
The reunion for Kirsten and Jeevan was nice. 
Hamlet, the play, did manage to capture many of the family dynamics between the characters.  And with all the connecting coincidences, it  was interesting that these actors ended up where they did 20 years later.  However:

On 1/15/2022 at 3:14 AM, MJ Frog said:

Now the way Shakespeare was used here? Good Christ. 

The way Clark, Elisabeth and Tyler jumped into the play at the last minute was unbelievable:  no rehearsals, magical memorization, etc. 

It was an interesting show and kept us entertained for the most part.  Many of the circumstances were far-fetched, though (especially episode 9: Dr. Chaudhary ).  The book had many of the same issues, but I was more forgiving of a single author.  For this show to come together, teams of people had the chance to iron out the concepts.
Some of the more annoying concepts:
   Everyone was okay with dozens of illiterate, stolen children being raised in the wild  by Tyler?  Parents are less attached in this world?
  Why is everyone acting as if technology has been destroyed? It's still there, just abandoned!  Communities of survivors would most likely form around areas where  hydro-electric, solar or wind energy was available.  The problem is a shortage of people - not knowledge or materials. 
  Where are the bicycles?  They are easy to maintain and should be lying around everywhere.
  How was Tyler planning on destroying 'the Before'? Every abandoned public library and Wal-Mart was an even better version of the Museum of Civilization. 
  Miranda's phone call to the airline pilot: Did they just want more coincidences, and more Miranda? Are the writers not familiar with the Emergency Exit Row?  (He could have tried to persuade them, but that's about it.)

Edited January 25, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Miranda's phone call to the airline pilot: Did they just want more coincidences, and more Miranda? Are the writers not familiar with the Emergency Exit Row?  (He could have tried to persuade them, but that's about it.)

From what we saw, it looked like the co-pilot was already dead and I would guess a lot of the passengers were as well, with the rest in the process of dying (except the one survivor).  They probably weren't in any position to leave anyways. 

[Affogato]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:13 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

  Why is everyone acting as if technology has been destroyed? It's still there, just abandoned!  Communities of survivors would most likely form around areas where  hydro-electric, solar or wind energy was available.  The problem is a shortage of people - not knowledge or materials. 
  Where are the bicycles?  They are easy to maintain and should be lying around everywhere.
 

I'm guessing that is the point of the underground, to move to the future you have to let go of the hope of the past.  The technology isn't coming back soon. No one is manufacturing plastic tubing and computer chips. Yes, at first those things would be free for the taking, but after a while they would stop working. Batteries poop out. The occasional airport, which happen to have solar panels (unlikely they can manufacture more) and someone who knows how to set them up! will continue to operate for the lifetime, maybe, of the people who lived in the before time. Maybe they will have the sense to set up and train medics like Javeen, keep the knowledge going using supplies they have available. Maybe figure out how to build bicycles once the available supplies rot or run out. But the roads will break up and the gas tanks rust, soon enough, and the medicines and canned foods go bad. Not a long term solution, any of it.

The traveling theater troupe provides communication and forms a unit out of people who otherwise wouldn't be connected. This isn't trivial.

[aghst]

How lethal was the flu?  It killed 90%?  99%?

Whatever it is, it leaves a lot of detritus of civilization.

For generations they can scavenge.

They won't be able to manufacture anything.  But that doesn't have to be a permanent thing.  There are books out there on engineering and manufacturing out there somewhere.

There may be servers containing Wiki articles and other documents to help rebuild things like manufacturing or technology.

Some of the younger generation or those born after the pandemic, like Alex, are curious about technology, when Kirsten was explaining things like apps on phones to her.

It's not inconceivable that some kids will come across information and be interested in rebuilding things.

The pandemic didn't eliminate nerds or the ability to give birth to nerds.  Some of them might be more interested in architecture, engineering, science, than putting on Shakespeare plays.  You would hope survivors will include people with all sorts of interests, not just artists and performers.

So I don't buy that the post-apocalyptic world would permanently be this pre-industrial world.  For one thing, people wouldn't be starting from scratch as people in the 17th and 18th centuries did, when they invented things like the cotton gin and other forms of automation.

Or go back earlier, look at the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg in the 15th century, which led to huge dissemination of information, first religious and then later to include scientific books.

The survivors would still see examples of civilization.  Some of them would look at figuring out how manufactured things were made, how they work, etc.  They would look at how to improve their lives, produce more food, live more comfortably and safely, even look for ways to entertain themselves, as they become more productive and food production is not a struggle any longer.

This would take time, generations, but not centuries to regain a lot of things civilization had.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

How lethal was the flu?  It killed 90%?  99%?

Whatever it is, it leaves a lot of detritus of civilization.

For generations they can scavenge.

They won't be able to manufacture anything.  But that doesn't have to be a permanent thing.  There are books out there on engineering and manufacturing out there somewhere.

There may be servers containing Wiki articles and other documents to help rebuild things like manufacturing or technology.

Some of the younger generation or those born after the pandemic, like Alex, are curious about technology, when Kirsten was explaining things like apps on phones to her.

It's not inconceivable that some kids will come across information and be interested in rebuilding things.

The pandemic didn't eliminate nerds or the ability to give birth to nerds.  Some of them might be more interested in architecture, engineering, science, than putting on Shakespeare plays.  You would hope survivors will include people with all sorts of interests, not just artists and performers.

So I don't buy that the post-apocalyptic world would permanently be this pre-industrial world.  For one thing, people wouldn't be starting from scratch as people in the 17th and 18th centuries did, when they invented things like the cotton gin and other forms of automation.

Or go back earlier, look at the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg in the 15th century, which led to huge dissemination of information, first religious and then later to include scientific books.

The survivors would still see examples of civilization.  Some of them would look at figuring out how manufactured things were made, how they work, etc.  They would look at how to improve their lives, produce more food, live more comfortably and safely, even look for ways to entertain themselves, as they become more productive and food production is not a struggle any longer.

This would take time, generations, but not centuries to regain a lot of things civilization had.

There is this great book by a guy who built a toaster from scratch. Mined the metal, etc. interesting read. 
 

the question the kids are asking in the story is whether a lot of it is worth it. 
 

also how long do you think batteries last? Circuit boards?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Affogato

[aghst]

Circuit boards should be solid.

Batteries, probably gone though if you buy a pack of alkalines, they say good until  x year and that is usually at least 3-4 years out.

There are probably a lot of solar panels around.  Maybe not so much in Chicago but certainly if you go out west or southwest and southeast.  I don't know if they degrade.  Certainly they get more efficient so that might be the main reason people replace them with newer panels.

Of course they're subject to damage from wind and so on but do they degrade after too much exposure to the sun?  PVC plastic used in pipes do so I don't know.

Around the world there are probably working windmills and hydroelectric turbines which can work for decades.  I'm not talking about the big modern windmills with huge blades.  I'm talking about what you might see in the Netherlands, those rustic looking windmills.

Even if there are dead batteries and circuit boards which no longer work, again there should be people capable of figuring out how they work, fixing them or making new ones.

I really would find it hard to believe that eventually human race no longer has any electricity.  Someone will figure it out, just like an airport security guard figured out how to install a solar system.

 

 

[Affogato]

On 1/30/2022 at 3:31 PM, aghst said:

Circuit boards should be solid.

Batteries, probably gone though if you buy a pack of alkalines, they say good until  x year and that is usually at least 3-4 years out.

There are probably a lot of solar panels around.  Maybe not so much in Chicago but certainly if you go out west or southwest and southeast.  I don't know if they degrade.  Certainly they get more efficient so that might be the main reason people replace them with newer panels.

Of course they're subject to damage from wind and so on but do they degrade after too much exposure to the sun?  PVC plastic used in pipes do so I don't know.

Around the world there are probably working windmills and hydroelectric turbines which can work for decades.  I'm not talking about the big modern windmills with huge blades.  I'm talking about what you might see in the Netherlands, those rustic looking windmills.

Even if there are dead batteries and circuit boards which no longer work, again there should be people capable of figuring out how they work, fixing them or making new ones.

I really would find it hard to believe that eventually human race no longer has any electricity.  Someone will figure it out, just like an airport security guard figured out how to install a solar system.

 

 

Oh you can generate electricity. Sure. Clearly it is pissible to generate industrial technology from not. We did it once without manuals. 
 

For the rest i think you are pretty naive. 
 

here, have an article. Just to start you off:

https://www.cracked.com/article_21251_5-things-every-movie-gets-wrong-about-apocalypse.html
 

[aghst]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Oh you can generate electricity. Sure. Clearly it is pissible to generate industrial technology from not. We did it once without manuals. 
 

For the rest i think you are pretty naive. 
 

here, have an article. Just to start you off:

https://www.cracked.com/article_21251_5-things-every-movie-gets-wrong-about-apocalypse.html
 

What rest are you referring to?  You quoted the part of my post which was directly about electricity.

There's a book called Lucifer's Hammer, about a big comment which strikes the earth, causing tsunamis and earthquakes, pretty much ending civilization.  Before every chapter, they have a quote which supports what happens in the narrative, like things going haywire.

One thing they cited was how society would break down and people would in fact be fighting each other for scarce resources.  That Cracked article says the opposite.

But we've seen behavior when society breaks down, even temporarily.  For instance, people often loot after a hurricane or natural disaster.  Or when wars break out, there have been cases of former neighbors literally imprisoning or even killing each other.

There are predictions of more wars as climate change force people to try to migrate away and into places where people don't want the refugees.  For instance the Arab Spring is partly attributed to prolonged drought conditions.

Even this show depicted people fighting over scarce resources.  Jeevan got attacked but before that, he was hearing on the short wave radio that there was widespread fighting in some places, with people warning not to go to certain places.

 

 

[Affogato]

On 2/2/2022 at 3:34 PM, aghst said:

What rest are you referring to?  You quoted the part of my post which was directly about electricity.

There's a book called Lucifer's Hammer, about a big comment which strikes the earth, causing tsunamis and earthquakes, pretty much ending civilization.  Before every chapter, they have a quote which supports what happens in the narrative, like things going haywire.

One thing they cited was how society would break down and people would in fact be fighting each other for scarce resources.  That Cracked article says the opposite.

But we've seen behavior when society breaks down, even temporarily.  For instance, people often loot after a hurricane or natural disaster.  Or when wars break out, there have been cases of former neighbors literally imprisoning or even killing each other.

There are predictions of more wars as climate change force people to try to migrate away and into places where people don't want the refugees.  For instance the Arab Spring is partly attributed to prolonged drought conditions.

Even this show depicted people fighting over scarce resources.  Jeevan got attacked but before that, he was hearing on the short wave radio that there was widespread fighting in some places, with people warning not to go to certain places.

 

 

Lucifers Hammer is part of on ongoing discussion at the time about whether there was any catastrophe we could bring on ourselves or experience that science couldn't fix.  Ah, the good old days.

Of course people will fight over scarce resources, but with chemical plant explosions, nuclear melt downs and fire, the resources will be scarcer than are shown in this particular story, which is more about the survival of the human spirit.

When Clark looks out over the people, spreading out into the wilderness, they are fairly unburdened (with the metaphorical baggage of civilization) and they are fruitful and multiplying, as we see because there are so many of them. I think in the show this is supposed to be happening all over. All over the world there are things like the 'museum of civilization' that have kept the lights on, and things like the 'traveling symphony' that carry that information to the people who are sheltering in place. Jeevan is part of such a group, he has gone out from the birthing clinic and travels to where he is needed. There will be traveling stores and libraries, traveling hospitals, and traveling schools--they won't all be theater groups--and the places with electricity and manuals will be equally varied. Eventually they will start to share the things they save, through the traveling groups.

I think it is a positive message and it assumes that people are basically cooperative, whether either of us believe that or not. But it ignores a lot in order to make that message work.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Affogato

[WaltersHair]

Just found this series and did a few of days marathon. It has plot holes a mile wide, but I did enjoy it over all.

I also think it touches on a subject that is very true today: that some gen x and millennials are trying to erase history. My mother owned an antique store for 25 years and had to give it up because most of the people who came through wanted painted or newish furniture. She sold far more by painting things, but couldn't bring herself to paint the really nice stuff. Bare wood is just not in style. Tyler, before his new direction, was saying there was no before and that anyone or anything over a certain age was expendable. RIP Museum of Civilization.

This is a series that needs to be binged due to the multiple time jumps. I'm fairly certain that had I watched it from week to week, I would have dropped out.

[HerkyJerky]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:38 PM, Nellise said:

As a counter-example to this show: the Leftovers is extremely weird and metaphysical, but the characters' actions make sense within the show and so it's more believable despite being more fantastical.

Catching up on all the shows I've missed and YMMV but this show held my interest whereas the Leftovers was so boring I couldn't make it past the third episode.