S04.E04: All Is Possible

[paigow]

AIRING DEC 9, 2021

Tilly and Adira lead a team of Starfleet Academy cadets on a training mission that takes a dangerous turn; Burnham is pulled into tense negotiations on Ni'Var.

[paigow]

Did some Blacklist people get hired here???? This is beyond bad...

[Zonk]

God this was awfull. We are back to Micheal being the messiah.

Not only was the writing for her god awfull, Green also managed to lower it further into the muck with her horrible performance.

The writing on the Tilly side of the story also wasn't great but at least the actress elevated that material a bit. I guess she's gone now and we have to endure more Micheal?

I'm seriously considering dropping this show. It isn't even fun-bad anymore, like previous seasons. Now it's just bad-bad.

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Did some Blacklist people get hired here???? This is beyond bad...

If so they must have been on staff since season one.

[paigow]

Tilly: We will die if we stop moving.

Cadet: The cave is stupid and I will stand here arguing until required exposition is done... Even if it kills ALL of us.

[paigow]

Picard as Klingon Arbiter Of Succession was odd, but understandable because he had no obvious conflicts of interest.

Conversely, Burnham as referee is completely conflicted. Good call writers!

Edited December 9, 2021 by paigow

[MissLucas]

Has anyone managed to get what Burnham's compromise was really about? I watched the scene twice and all I got was a lot of bureaucratic gobbledygook about resolution by committee and getting all worlds involved. Which was never the issue at hand and who will act for all the other worlds and who's chairman err.. chairwoman of that committee? And how is Burnham neutral in all of this? Nothing made sense. And do the writers realize that by their constant undermining of politicians and politics they are actually advocating military government? Just wondering. At least Saru and T'Rina got a cute date out of the whole thing.

Yes,Tilly if you have to play bait for a species that moves underneath ice and snow, go stand on an icefield instead of gaining a good head start by starting from a cliff. And Starfleet Academy probably should start team-building exercises with something like trust-falls before sending cadets who barely know each others names on a field trip. I mean you can do it this way if you a have plenty of cadets to spare...

 

[paigow]

20 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

And Starfleet Academy probably should start team-building exercises with something like trust-falls

Or hyper-promiscuity like Kirk

[Noneofyourbusiness]

And Michael is in a unique position to consider Ni'Var's interests because she was raised on Vulcan... hundreds of years ago. Cultural changes must have taken place since then, not least because of the Burn and the reunification with the Romulans. That's like giving William the Conqueror, who came from Normandy back when it had its own borders and rulers, a job that requires an understanding of modern-day France.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Noneofyourbusiness

[thuganomics85]

Hey, David Cronenberg is back!  Yeah, yeah, I know his character probably has some kind of name, but anytime he shows up, I'm always going to be "It's the dude who gave us Scanners and A History of Violence!"

So, it seems like this was an episode to mainly get Tilly off Discovery?  I guess she can pop up again since he is now going to be teaching at the Academy, but I'm guessing she will no longer be appearing in every episode?  I wonder if this was a writing decision or if Mary Wiseman no longer wanted to be a regular?  Curious to see what this means.

Glad they remember that there was a little bit of a thing between Saru and President T'Rina.  And they've already gotten into the "Get invited to tea" phase of their relationship.  Saru can get it!  Eat your heart out, Kirk!!

Basically it sounds like both Starfleet and Ni'Var were being held back by the pursuits in their respected organizations.  But it's all good now because Michael was just like "I know y'all don't trust one another, so just trust me instead!" about it?  Okay, that seemed way too easy.

The scenes with Booker and Culber were nice at least.

[paigow]

Saru should start practicing with the lirpa in case the President already has a boyfriend...

Edited December 10, 2021 by paigow

[Zonk]

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Academy probably should start team-building exercises with something like trust-falls before sending cadets who barely know each others names on a field trip.

Or you know, holo simulations, like it used to be the standard a thousand years ago. What do they even have holodecks for anymore? Just for weird sex stuff?

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Has anyone managed to get what Burnham's compromise was really about?

Not really. There are going to be committees or maybe just one committee and there are representatives of the world on there and they can voice their concerns if something rubbed them the wrong way? Because they couldn't do that without a committee?

Maybe an old german saying can shed some light on this: "Wenn du nicht mehr weiter weißt, gründe einen Arbeitskreis!" ("If you are at your wits end, found a committee!")

Basically it's making fun of the fact that when you found a committee you are distributing the responsibility of your inevitable failure onto many shoulders.

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder if this was a writing decision or if Mary Wiseman no longer wanted to be a regular? 

If I were her I would have wanted off this show three seasons ago. She is too good for it. So is Doug Jones, but I imagine it's a bit harder to find other work if your niche is creature performer.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zonk

[paigow]

Eventually, Federation membership agreements will be modelled on the Sheliak treaty circa TNG

From Memory Alpha:

The Sheliak insisted on a level of complexity in the treaty which would eliminate ambiguity, as they considered Federation language to be "irrational". Three hundred and seventy-two Federation legal experts were sent to draft the treaty.

[marinw]

So where is the Enterprise?

So why is Saru  being referred to as captian?

Nice to see restorative justice being used instead of prison.

Edited December 10, 2021 by marinw

[ottoDbusdriver]

This episode reminded of the intro to any episode of Clone High.

On a very special episode of Star Trek: Discovery, Tilly proves she's a terrible leader by lowering the competency bar, Burnham splits the difference on Ni'var, and something weird is going on with Gray's hair. Seriously, what was that on his head ?

Edited December 10, 2021 by ottoDbusdriver

[cdnalor]

29 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

something weird is going on with Gray's hair. Seriously, what was that on his head ?

A space mullet?

[paigow]

29 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

and something weird is going on with Gray's hair. Seriously, what was that on his head ?

Burnham said a week has passed since Gray 2.0 was born... That much hair grew in a week????

[Chyromaniac]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

So where is the Enterprise?

So why is Saru  being referred to as captian?

Nice to see restorative justice being used instead of prison.

Do you mean Discovery?  I believe they said the ship was still at Ni’Var working on the DMA with the local science experts.  If you actually did mean Enterprise, I don’t think we’ve seen this era’s version.

Saru is still a Captain by rank, if not position.  It’s not exactly the same, but by the later TOS films, both Kirk and Spock were “Captains,” (Scotty too, iirc) even though the later served as first officer, like Saru does on Disco.

 I also appreciated the nod towards corrective action for J’Vini. It feels fitting for Mom Burnham to take her on as a rehab project- that seems to be the whole deal with the QM.

[paigow]

14 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Saru is still a Captain by rank, if not position.  It’s not exactly the same, but by the later TOS films, both Kirk and Spock were “Captains,” (Scotty too, iirc) even though the later served as first officer, like Saru does on Disco.

In Wrath Of Khan, Admiral Kirk took command of Enterprise from Captain Spock - who remained on board as Number One

[meira.hand]

10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That's like giving William the Conqueror, who came from Normandy back when it had its own borders and rulers, a job that requires an understanding of modern-day France.

reminded me of Beforeigners (a Norwegian TV series)

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, Zonk said:

Not really. There are going to be committees or maybe just one committee and there are representatives of the world on there and they can voice their concerns if something rubbed them the wrong way? Because they couldn't do that without a committee?

It sounded like there's going to be one committee, but let's be honest, it's really going to be Michael who solves any and all problems. 

[marinw]

Someone died on Tilly's watch. It wasn't her fault, but everyone looked way too happy at the end. This epsiode was a bad version of the classic TOS episode "The Galileo Seven".

On the plus side, at least Adira and Grey are capable of spending time away from eah other. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by marinw

[paigow]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

It sounded like there's going to be one committee, but let's be honest, it's really going to be Michael who solves any and all problems. 

Stamets: Captain! I know where the anomaly is going. We can jump ahead of it and evacuate the planet!

Burnham: Belay that! Black Alert for jumping to my committee meeting

[ottoDbusdriver]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It sounded like there's going to be one committee, but let's be honest, it's really going to be Michael who solves any and all problems. 

To borrow from Star Wars:

Queen Amidala : "I was not elected to watch my people suffer and die while you discuss this invasion in a committee!"

Replace "invasion" with "DMA" and we're good to go. :)

[Primal Slayer]

I liked majority of the episode up until the writers pulled their usual "Michael is the great savior" trope with her brokering peace between Starfleet and Ni'Var. The writers really need to learn that Burnham can be the lead without being the biggest Mary-Sue we've seen in years.

[sugarbaker design]

22 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I liked majority of the episode up until the writers pulled their usual "Michael is the great savior" trope with her brokering peace between Starfleet and Ni'Var.

It seemed like Burnham said "If I may..." about a hundred times.  It was very annoying.

I watch unspoiled, so I was taken aback at Tilly leaving.  It just seems she (the actress and the character) is being replaced by Adira (and the actor who plays them).  The actor and character of Adira is not in the same league as Tilly and Wiseman, not even close, not in the same universe.  Bad move Discovery.  I hope this was MW's decision.

[Primal Slayer]

3 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

It seemed like Burnham said "If I may..." about a hundred times.  It was very annoying.

I watch unspoiled, so I was taken aback at Tilly leaving.  It just seems she (the actress and the character) is being replaced by Adira (and the actor who plays them).  The actor and character of Adira is not in the same league as Tilly and Wiseman, not even close, not in the same universe.  Bad move Discovery.  I hope this was MW's decision.

They are definitely focusing more and more on characters i don't care about instead of the ones i want to learn more about.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

They are definitely focusing more and more on characters i don't care about instead of the ones i want to learn more about.

Looks like the Stamets parental arc is sidelined as well... Thankfully. Adira has been a teenager several times...

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Looks like the Stamets parental arc is sidelined as well... Thankfully. Adira has been a teenager several times...

The parental storyline....happened way too fast/early in the show and one of my least fave storylines for them.

[TheGourmez]

14 hours ago, marinw said:

Someone died on Tilly's watch. It wasn't her fault, but everyone looked way too happy at the end. This epsiode was a bad version of the classic TOS episode "The Galileo Seven".

On the plus side, at least Adira and Grey are capable of spending time away from eah other. 

I was so certain it would be revealed to be a simulation in the end - and then it wasn't! And no one really cared that they lost a young cadet! Just all, "geez, thanks, Tilly! We made friends after all!" Why is Starfleet running exercises like that with inexperienced cadets in actual space?!

[Stardancer Supreme]

16 hours ago, marinw said:

Someone died on Tilly's watch. It wasn't her fault, but everyone looked way too happy at the end. This episode was a bad version of the classic TOS episode "The Galileo Seven".

On the plus side, at least Adira and Grey are capable of spending time away from each other. 

It looked more like Gray forcing Adira to leave his side so he can breathe. I'll bet they were stuck to his side ever since his rebirth.

2 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

I was so certain it would be revealed to be a simulation in the end - and then it wasn't! And no one really cared that they lost a young cadet! Just all, "geez, thanks, Tilly! We made friends after all!" Why is Starfleet running exercises like that with inexperienced cadets in actual space?!

I was stuck on the fact that there was no explanation on what hit the shuttlecraft.  That cadet died a little too quickly for me, too.  It seemed like Tilly blinked and he was gone!  Being witness to yet another dead Starfleet member on an away mission would surely cause Tilly to have PTSD. Are there any Counselors at Starfleet HQ?

[catsitter]

14 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

I was so certain it would be revealed to be a simulation in the end - and then it wasn't! And no one really cared that they lost a young cadet! Just all, "geez, thanks, Tilly! We made friends after all!" Why is Starfleet running exercises like that with inexperienced cadets in actual space?!

I thought the person who died was a Lieutenant who was piloting the shuttle, not a cadet? Also, there was an exterior shot of the shuttle crash-landing, which I thought made it clear to the viewers that it couldn't be a simulation. I did think it would have worked better if they hadn't shown that view, and we had been unsure whether it was real or not. They could easily have had Tilly not tell the cadets that it was real.

 

I really would have thought that Tilly would be better at commanding a team by now, since she once served as First Officer and had to take charge of the ship that one time. She shouldn't still be so nervous about command.

[paigow]

15 minutes ago, catsitter said:

I thought the person who died was a Lieutenant who was piloting the shuttle

I really would have thought that Tilly would be better at commanding a team by now,

Yes.

She has lost her mojo... The next Academy field trip will go bad... But The Guardian Of Forever will show up and bring her to the past where she joins Georgiou in Section 31. 

[Quark]

So Tilly is gone? That's depressing, she was a bright light in this rather dark show. I hope they can introduce someone similar to her.

[Lebanna]

Every time we have one of these very special episodes, the person we have just learned about or been reminded about why they are awesome immediately dies or leaves. The part-robot crew member. The security officer. Georgiou. Now Tilly. I have a feeling there have been others.

It’s getting to be a weird tic the show has developed. 
 

[Affogato]

Since there has been talk of a federation academy show I wondered if she was being pulled into a different show. Or at least breaking to make a pilot. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Affogato

[paigow]

30 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Since there has been talk of a federation academy show I wondered if she was being pulled into a different show.

Welcome Back, Tilly - Teaching remedial science to a wacky group of misfit cadets...

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Welcome Back, Tilly - Teaching remedial science to a wacky group of misfit cadets...

Saved by the Tilly -- featuring the wacky hi-jinks of Starfleet cadets attending Bayside Burnside High.

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Saved by the Tilly -- featuring the wacky hi-jinks of Starfleet cadets attending Bayside Burnside High.

Gossip Tilly - After preventing a mass washout event, Tilly tries to motivate the snobby, entitled and lazy offspring of various Starfleet & Federation bigwigs.

[ottoDbusdriver]

50 minutes ago, paigow said:

Gossip Tilly - After preventing a mass washout event, Tilly tries to motivate the snobby, entitled and lazy offspring of various Starfleet & Federation bigwigs.

The Umbrella Starfleet Academy -- Lt. Sylvia Tilly brings together a group of eclectic cadets all born on the same stardate to help them develop their superpowers to yell at dilithium. :)

[Athena5217]

8 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Every time we have one of these very special episodes, the person we have just learned about or been reminded about why they are awesome immediately dies or leaves. The part-robot crew member. The security officer. Georgiou. Now Tilly. I have a feeling there have been others.

This is my biggest problem with Discovery. The characters I get really interested in die/leave/disappear, and there are several people on the bridge whose names I don’t even know. I understand actors may want to leave and bringing on new main characters introduces new storylines, but it seems to happen a lot on Discovery, which only has 13 episodes a season compared to previous Star Trek shows with 20-24 episodes a season.

My favorite characters on Disco are Tilley and Jett Reno. Jett is not in several episodes because of the actor’s schedule so if I don’t get to see Tilly much either because she is not on the ship, there is not much reason for me to watch.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Athena5217

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

This is my biggest problem with Discovery. The characters I get really interested in die/leave/disappear, and there are several people on the bridge whose names I don’t even know. I understand actors may want to leave and bringing on new main characters introduces new storylines, but it seems to happen a lot on Discovery, which only has 13 episodes a season compared to previous Star Trek shows with 20-24 episodes a season.

My favorite characters on Disco are Tilley and Jett Reno. Jett is not in several episodes because of the actor’s schedule so if I don’t get to see Tilly much either because she is not on the ship, there is not much reason for me to watch.

I think there is an ongoing theme where characters leave the main group and come back having learned things that benefit the group. Michael does this, Saru does this, Book does it, Culber did it. It is possible that Tilly will come back at some point, having grown as a person. It is possible she doesn't. But I think the theme is there and it is meant to say something about how people grow and develop.

I'm not saying you have to like it :-)

Edited December 12, 2021 by Affogato

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

This is my biggest problem with Discovery. The characters I get really interested in die/leave/disappear, and there are several people on the bridge whose names I don’t even know. I understand actors may want to leave and bringing on new main characters introduces new storylines, but it seems to happen a lot on Discovery, which only has 13 episodes a season compared to previous Star Trek shows with 20-24 episodes a season.

My favorite characters on Disco are Tilley and Jett Reno. Jett is not in several episodes because of the actor’s schedule so if I don’t get to see Tilly much either because she is not on the ship, there is not much reason for me to watch.

I think there is an ongoing theme where characters leave the main group and come back having learned things that benefit the group. Michael does this, Saru does this, Culber did it. It is possible that Tilly will come back at some point, having grown as a person. It is possible she doesn't. But I think the theme is there.

[Joimiaroxeu]

"There is a difference between enduring and thriving." Of course there is. WTF, Burnham?

Saru about to get him some. 👀

The development they're doing with Booker is great. I like that he's becoming much more than just Burnham's bedmate.

Bye, Tilly--for now, I guess. Good luck on the new spinoff.

I found this episode surprisingly topical, in perhaps a highly optimistic view of how compromise works.

[Lebanna]

39 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

 

"There is a difference between enduring and thriving." Of course there is. WTF, Burnham?

 

Is this really the original line? Wow.

I have to watch the show in Spanish as that is how it is being broadcast in my region, and here ‘thriving’ was changed to the Spanish for ‘prospering’, which seemed like a pretty logical way to get a bunch of what are basically Vulcans on side, as you would be making it clear that you know perfectly well that they already understand this point and therefore all you are saying is that they should be acting in accordance with their values.

I’m amazed if the original writers didn’t just do that. The translation gave a totally different meaning to the line.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Lebanna

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Saru about to get him some. 👀

If he hears this, he will be unpleasantly surprised...

 

[tennisgurl]

I had no idea that Tilly was leaving, I am very disappointed. It sounds like, from interviews I read, that she will be back sometimes but will still not be a regular character anymore, which I am really sad about. Tilly is usually our main source of comedic relief so with her gone things are going to be even more dour then usual. I guess the show got bored with her when they decided to focus on Adira, who is fine but not anywhere near as interesting or as likable as Tilly.

This definitely felt very "Galileo 7" from the original show, and while it was pretty standard for that kind of plot I did like Tilly's plot trying to shape up the rag tag bunch of cadets. I have no proof of this but it felt a bit backdoor pilot-y, plus I know there has been rumbling of a Starfleet Academy show for ages now. Although with two more spin offs down the pipeline plus Picard, I worry that the franchise might be stretching itself too thin with yet another show. 

Nice to see the Ni'Var rejoin the Federation, and that it seems more like the President is going to be more of the "morally grey but not bad" type of president instead of the "secretly evil because she rubs Michael the wrong way" type, but it is annoying how Michael manages to save the day every single damn time, even when its dealing with politics, something that Michael hates. I don't even really know what she did other then decide she has to run a committee, because of her knowledge of Vulcan from a few hundred years ago and working for the Federation, which she only just got back to from the past. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Ottis]

I’m not even done watching this one and it’s bad. I don’t actually care if everyone on the shuttle dies, so whatever. The political silliness feels heavy handed and unnecessary (“what is trust?” Blech). And more of Booker is Sad. Oy vey. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Ottis

[TV Anonymous]

A failed training exercise that resulted in casualty and near misses for the participants? And the Lead of such exercise got a praise and offered a new position? WTF? Imagine if this happened in the U.S. Navy. Inquiry would be launched. Leading Officer would be relieved of command and maybe suspended. Procedures would be reviewed. The fact that they ventured in open space without supervision would be asked. And so on and so forth. Guess Starfleet did not really value life, regardless what the characters said every week?

[Colorado David]

i'm so over the Burnham-Book plotline. they've become the majors, and the rest of the crew are secondaries.  their scenes together do not compel me, it's too much soap opera.

[millennium]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:13 PM, Lebanna said:

Every time we have one of these very special episodes, the person we have just learned about or been reminded about why they are awesome immediately dies or leaves. The part-robot crew member. The security officer. Georgiou. Now Tilly. I have a feeling there have been others.
 

It reminds me of a company teetering on the brink of failure as the employees scramble looking for new jobs. 

This episode took a lot of will-power to keep watching.  Will there ever be an episode where the President or Admiral or God perhaps pulls Burnham aside and tears her a new one for being a fucking know-it-all and first-class buttinski?

And what is with all the navel-gazing in this show?  In previous Treks -- notably TNG -- the script usually left the crew to process its losses, failures, tragedies, etc. off camera.   A poignant word or two at the end, then the camera switches to the ship's exterior as it glides away into space.   The crew of the Enterprise goes one way, we go another.  The End.  When next we meet, it's not the past anybody's dwelling on, it's the future.   But THIS show just drags the characters' dreary baggage from one episode to the next.   Enough with sad Booker and his mind melds and therapy sessions.  Prescribe him some sertaline and move on. 

Also, why all the cringey 21st-century idiom? "I got you" and "this is in my wheelhouse" and "things went sideways" ... even "shitshow."   Based on TOS and TNG these expressions were not in use in the 23rd or 24th centuries.   Why are they being used so freely in the 32nd?

Edited February 12, 2022 by millennium