S01.E02: Hide and Seek

[arc]

4 hours ago, Ailianna said:

We don't know that anything other than the Ronin stuff was Avengers related,

The break-in stopped the auction before the watch could be sold, but it was labelled as Avengers related.

[swanpride]

Leverage was ahead of it's time. People who have access to data are the new big evil in the world anyway. 

[Llywela]

19 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Leverage was ahead of it's time. People who have access to data are the new big evil in the world anyway. 

Yeah, but I'm talking about security companies specifically because Kate's mother owns one and it just seems to add to her shadiness.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm just going with Kate's mom is shady because she's played by Vera Farmiga. Nothing in show has pointed to her yet. While Jack basically has a target on his head saying BAD GUY. I'm just thinking that while we all look at Jack because we are supposed to, Eleanor is the real mastermind. 

I've even seen theories that she killed her husband during the attack because she had the opportunity to and got his life insurance payout. While Kate was running around screaming for her parents, we didn't hear them calling for her. 

The argument she had with Armand directly points to her being shady. He accused her of building her company on a lie and threatened to expose her. It seemed so obvious to me that they are making her look suspicious that I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a red herring. 

5 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Also, not everything was Avengers related. As noted, there was the triceratops skull. We don't know that anything other than the Ronin stuff was Avengers related, and since no one knew Clint was Ronin, the buyers/auctioneers may not consider it Avengers related. They didn't say Avengers in the description before the sword was sold.

They did say that the suit and sword were found at the Avengers compound so they knew there was some connection to the Avengers. The watch they tracksuits were looking for also came from Avengers compound. 

[swanpride]

Yeah, I know, I made a similar observation, but my list was more focussed on actual hints than, well, things which are just hints because that's how storytelling works. I mean, aside from the content of the argument in the beginning, it should be important later on, because if they had just wanted to establish the relationship between Kate and her father, they could have cut it out. I know that the most obvious candidate is rarely the right one, at least not if there are multiple options. And yes, I don't think that the security firm thing is in any way an accident. 

[arc]

9 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

but there are also characters who are worse - 'mewling quim' in The Avengers alone should have killed the Loki adoration dead in its tracks, but it didn't

I mentally edit out as many Whedonisms as I can when I rewatch Avengers 1 and 2.

52 minutes ago, swanpride said:

And yes, I don't think that the security firm thing is in any way an accident. 

Honestly, it’s plausible but still shady that a nepotism hire like Kate can use the firm’s tech to track someone’s cell phone, and without even getting any authorization from anyone at the company. Also, given Clint’s status as an Avenger, it’s an oversight the government didn’t hook him up with an uncrackable and untraceable phone.

[festivus]

Ooo, they played Christmas Island at the end. Yep, that's what I'm geeking out about. 

[AnimeMania]

'Hawkeye' Head Writer Jonathan Igla Breaks Down the First Two Episodes, From Kate and Clint's Initial Meeting to That Episode 2 Closer

More about how he created the scenarios, rather than actually explaining what happened in the episodes.

[Bruinsfan]

On 11/24/2021 at 2:47 PM, tennisgurl said:

Plus i think her being high society but a bit awkward about it, like wearing a suite to a fancy event, is interesting.

That was supposed to be awkward? The only way she could have been cooler at that party is if she had turned into David Bowie!

On 11/25/2021 at 12:58 AM, Fool to cry said:

There are fans of Kate in the comics who are watching only because of her and who hate MCU Hawkeye both because they don't like Renner and they prefer the Matt Fraction depiction where he's a single guy who's a mess.

waves hello

[arc]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:58 PM, Fool to cry said:

and who hate MCU Hawkeye both because they don't like Renner and they prefer the Matt Fraction depiction where he's a single guy who's a mess.

Back when Renner was first cast, I thought he would have made an amazing Hawkguy, because he had just recently been in the fun but failed ABC show The Unusuals, where he was playing a single guy who was a mess. And then of course the MCU went in very different ways with Clint. Go figure.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

That was supposed to be awkward? The only way she could have been cooler at that party is if she had turned into David Bowie!

🤣

I mean, you could tell she was only there because her mom roped her into it, but Eleanor wanted her to wear a dress similar to hers, not that suit that she was totally rocking. David Bowie, indeed.

[bethy]

Plus, if she'd worn what her mother wanted her to wear, she couldn't have been mistaken for one of the serving staff. 😉

[Wynterwolf]

On 11/24/2021 at 12:08 PM, arc said:

I guess I’m not really in the mood to take a lighthearted view of NY cops. I actually rewatched a bit of the Battle of New York scene in Avengers 1 and I didn’t mind the cops doing their best there, but why would they be LARPing? And let’s not forget Grills (a firefighter, I know) straight up stole that costume from a crime scene.

It’s also kinda amazing the costume fits Clint perfectly and Kate, who’s smaller than Clint, and Grills, who’s clearly taller than Clint.

Same!! Especially with them choosing to use one of the very few Black actors with lines for that role. 

On 11/24/2021 at 12:39 PM, Dandesun said:

Unstable molecules!!

But yeah, Grills stole that shit flat out. Clint getting it back is clearly protecting his own damn self and I get that but now I'm beginning to wonder what the hell is with that suit that it makes people do flat out illegal things.

All that being said, I really did get a kick out of the whole LARPing thing.

That was my first thing I thought to. The cynical part of me wonders if they saw a lot of the negative discussion about Clint's actions as Ronin so now it's the magical suit that fits anyone who wears it that made him do it. Though that really just brings up other issues, it doesn't solve anything about his actions in EG. 

[cambridgeguy]

22 hours ago, arc said:

Also, given Clint’s status as an Avenger, it’s an oversight the government didn’t hook him up with an uncrackable and untraceable phone.

I highly doubt the government trusts Clint enough to give him stuff like that.  This is a man who sided against them to help fugitives Steve and Bucky escape, subsequently spent time under house arrest, and then went on a murderous rampage.  If they don't know about that last part, then at the very least he vanished while the rest of the Avengers at least tried to help during the five year gap between movies.  Makes you wonder if the public thinks Clint was one of the dusted.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

That was my first thing I thought to. The cynical part of me wonders if they saw a lot of the negative discussion about Clint's actions as Ronin so now it's the magical suit that fits anyone who wears it that made him do it. Though that really just brings up other issues, it doesn't solve anything about his actions in EG. 

I wouldn't count on that. In  canon, only three people seem to know that Clint transformed into Ronin after the Snap; Natasha, Laura, and Rhodey. In this episode when Clint was on the phone with his wife, she asked him about what was going on with the "problematic wardrobe", and he said the situation was almost resolved, so she is aware of most if not all of what he got up to during those five years, and she'd be disinclined to turn him in. Had Natasha survived, she'd be equally unlikely to inform the authorities about her best friend's activities. The one wild card is Rhodey, and even he seemed to be actively discouraging Nat from pursuing the matter during the holo-conference in Endgame, even if it was just trying to talk Barton down.

Outside of canon, it's about a million percent not likely that it will be addressed. There's been enough ignoring of certain other things that happened during Endgame that it would be bizarre to start now, particularly after the intense discussion of the WandaVision finale. At this point, it's probably just better to let the subject lie.

[Zuleikha]

I am here with the important question:

Is it actually okay for a dog to eat pizza? (I know Pizza Dog is from the comics, but comic reality and TV reality are different.)

The show's pacing is weird for me. I get that we're in the set-up phase, but I don't feel like set-up is happening. I feel like events are happening. It seems almost absurdist with catastrophic event leading to catastrophic event and no sense of who any of these people are or how/why they really got involved... like does the Tracksuit Mafia actually have the watch? What happened to it? Why would making a bell ring destroy a clock tower?

At the same time, I'm oddly drawn in by it. Although Jack Duquesne's accent is distracting me. (I know Tony Dalton's worked in Mexican film, but he's from Laredo, TX. Does he have an accent in real life? Is he trying to do a French accent but sliding into a Spanish-influenced accent?)

[arc]

10 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I highly doubt the government trusts Clint enough to give him stuff like that.

I would assume the final battle plus the Blip (or whatever the unsnappening is called) counts for wiping Clint’s slate clean, at least as far as the government goes. Also, as for “murderous rampage”, wasn’t he a super spy assassin before being a superhero?

That said, I feel like post Cap 2, the Avengers were a privately funded superhero organization, not government run. Which is super problematic in other ways, but at least explains why Clint doesn’t have handlers or fixers. So I amend my earlier complaint about his very traceable phone to say the Stark company should have hooked him up. (Again, post-Endgame, all the Civil War stuff should have been forgiven.)

8 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Although Jack Duquesne's accent is distracting me. (I know Tony Dalton's worked in Mexican film, but he's from Laredo, TX. Does he have an accent in real life? Is he trying to do a French accent but sliding into a Spanish-influenced accent?)

Y’know, it never occurred to me that Jack might have a French accent. For one thing, he’s “Jack”, not “Jacques”, and for another, his uncle had an American accent.

While we’re talking about Jack, it didn’t make sense to me that Kate saw the monogrammed caramel as some kind of clue or something. He could have innocent reasons for having taken caramels from his own uncle, right?

[calliope1975]

3 minutes ago, arc said:

While we’re talking about Jack, it didn’t make sense to me that Kate saw the monogrammed caramel as some kind of clue or something. He could have innocent reasons for having taken caramels from his own uncle, right?

It was definitely supposed to make him a suspect, but I also had the thought of there's, what, seven of these Armand dudes running around? Maybe dead Armand bought the candy in bulk and they all have some, or, more plausibly, Jack picked some up last time he was there. 

[Zuleikha]

Y’know, it never occurred to me that Jack might have a French accent. For one thing, he’s “Jack”, not “Jacques”, and for another, his uncle had an American accent.

I was so confused by the show that I did background Googling on the characters. The comic backstory is that the character grew up in a Francophonic country. That's where that guess cames from. I have no idea what's going on with the accent.

I had the same confusion over the candies. It seemed reasonable that he could have some from earlier visits.

[mellyf]

54 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

I am here with the important question:

Is it actually okay for a dog to eat pizza? (I know Pizza Dog is from the comics, but comic reality and TV reality are different.)

 

They really shouldn't eat pizza on a regular basis. And some ingredients, such as onions and garlic are toxic to dogs. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by mellyf

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, arc said:

Y’know, it never occurred to me that Jack might have a French accent. For one thing, he’s “Jack”, not “Jacques”, and for another, his uncle had an American accent. 

They may have changed it for the show but in the comics he is Jacques Duquesne. 

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I wouldn't count on that. In  canon...

I didn't mean for in-universe purposes, and they're obviously not just letting it lie since the Ronin suit appears central the the show's plot. Nat may be gone and they may have name-checked Thanos, but again they're not incorporating any impact that might reasonably have happened from the Snap or from undoing the Snap. The only thing that seems to have happened in this show is the Chitauri invasion. And I don't necessarily disagree with that choice, I wish I could pretend Endgame didn't happen too, but it also allows them to sanitize what Clint did, and that I do disagree with.

Especially given how Clint said he "made enemies" instead of "murdered people because he was angry", and he called Kate a vigilante just for wearing the suit when all she did was get caught up in the middle of a robbery. That dialog choice was highly disingenuous to me unless they're going to go someplace with it.  But it is just the first two eps, so it will be interesting to see how they decide to proceed, and what point they try to make about Clint's actions while wearing that suit in EG. 

I enjoyed the first episode a lot, but the second one I definitely had issues. Especially for how Clint treated his kids, and particularly his daughter considering the type of relationship they're trying to set up between him and Kate. 

But I love Kate, and I love Lucky and I'm very intrigued by the person at the end of this ep. But what I am wondering is, how did Lucky get clean??? 

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:28 AM, tv echo said:

I like how Clint is so fed up with it all that nothing fazes him, not even being greatly outnumbered by the Track Suit Mafia and being threatened with guns. 

That was pretty clearly a call back to Natasha's intro scene in Avengers what with Clint being tied to a chair by a bunch of goons and being completely not worried. Clint's wife even said how getting caught on purpose was stealing one of Natasha's moves. Of course it was one of her moves until Kate showed up to try and "rescue" him.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[johntfs]

19 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I didn't mean for in-universe purposes, and they're obviously not just letting it lie since the Ronin suit appears central the the show's plot. Nat may be gone and they may have name-checked Thanos, but again they're not incorporating any impact that might reasonably have happened from the Snap or from undoing the Snap. The only thing that seems to have happened in this show is the Chitauri invasion. And I don't necessarily disagree with that choice, I wish I could pretend Endgame didn't happen too, but it also allows them to sanitize what Clint did, and that I do disagree with.

Especially given how Clint said he "made enemies" instead of "murdered people because he was angry", and he called Kate a vigilante just for wearing the suit when all she did was get caught up in the middle of a robbery. That dialog choice was highly disingenuous to me unless they're going to go someplace with it.  But it is just the first two eps, so it will be interesting to see how they decide to proceed, and what point they try to make about Clint's actions while wearing that suit in EG. 

I enjoyed the first episode a lot, but the second one I definitely had issues. Especially for how Clint treated his kids, and particularly his daughter considering the type of relationship they're trying to set up between him and Kate. 

But I love Kate, and I love Lucky and I'm very intrigued by the person at the end of this ep. But what I am wondering is, how did Lucky get clean??? 

 

 

Clint is getting his children back to their home and out of this dangerous situation.  He's dealing with Kate because she's an innocent person likely to get murdered by criminals because of what he did to those criminals. 

And do you really think Clint should have immediately said, "Oh yeah.  I was Ronin.  I brutally butcher the holy living fuck out of criminals during the SNAP.  Blood everywhere.  Intestines on my shoes butchered them." or something?  Calling Kate a vigilante was him over-reacting to seeing her in his old "butcher-the-fuck-outta-people" costume.

[paigow]

22 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Why would making a bell ring destroy a clock tower?

Since the Stane family built it, likely that substandard materials were used. The only way things could have been worse is if it was the Hammer Tower...

[moonshine71]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:00 PM, Zuleikha said:

I am here with the important question:

Is it actually okay for a dog to eat pizza? (I know Pizza Dog is from the comics, but comic reality and TV reality are different.)

The show's pacing is weird for me. I get that we're in the set-up phase, but I don't feel like set-up is happening. I feel like events are happening. It seems almost absurdist with catastrophic event leading to catastrophic event and no sense of who any of these people are or how/why they really got involved... like does the Tracksuit Mafia actually have the watch? What happened to it? Why would making a bell ring destroy a clock tower?

At the same time, I'm oddly drawn in by it. Although Jack Duquesne's accent is distracting me. (I know Tony Dalton's worked in Mexican film, but he's from Laredo, TX. Does he have an accent in real life? Is he trying to do a French accent but sliding into a Spanish-influenced accent?)

Also, exactly how old is that pizza? Kate has been at school. Kate got into town, told her mom she was going to make a quick stop by her apartment and then come over. That led straight into the party and the rest if the nights events. Did Kate, during her quick stop, order a large pizza and eat all if it except for one slice? Possible, but when she is looking for something to feed the dog, I get the distinct vibe of "I wonder what I have in here, oh, just this old slice if pizza", which I would assume she would know already if she had just ordered and ate it and then put the leftovers in an otherwise completely empty fridge.

[swanpride]

Yeah, comic book logic. For the record: in real live, Pizza is not a recommended food for dogs. At best, it will be unhealthy for them, at worst outright poisonous. 

Btw, the dog is suspicious too....

[callie lee 29]

I mean if the dog is a stray I doubt that old pizza is the worst thing he's eaten. Ideal? No, but one slice isn't going to kill him. And it looked like a basic cheese pizza 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Also, exactly how old is that pizza? Kate has been at school. Kate got into town, told her mom she was going to make a quick stop by her apartment and then come over. That led straight into the party and the rest if the nights events. Did Kate, during her quick stop, order a large pizza and eat all if it except for one slice? Possible, but when she is looking for something to feed the dog, I get the distinct vibe of "I wonder what I have in here, oh, just this old slice if pizza", which I would assume she would know already if she had just ordered and ate it and then put the leftovers in an otherwise completely empty fridge.

She lives above a pizza place. Considering she inherited her apartment she probably owns the whole building and gets pizza whenever she wants. I don’t think her thought process was anywhere near that clear after what she just saw. 

[cmahorror]

On 11/25/2021 at 6:52 AM, Sakura12 said:

I'm just going with Kate's mom is shady because she's played by Vera Farmiga. Nothing in show has pointed to her yet. While Jack basically has a target on his head saying BAD GUY. I'm just thinking that while we all look at Jack because we are supposed to, Eleanor is the real mastermind. 

I've even seen theories that she killed her husband during the attack because she had the opportunity to and got his life insurance payout. While Kate was running around screaming for her parents, we didn't hear them calling for her. 

I am in the camp that Kate's mom killed her dad and she is the real villain of the piece. Jack is bad too but they are an evil power couple. 

Love that Clint seems to have told Laura about Ronin and she is supporting him in his attempt to get rid of the suit and the Tracksuit Mafia. Usually the wife will be in the dark or completely unsupportive of what the hero needs to do. Laura understands that it is not just about Ronin, the whole family is in danger is anyone ever figures out that Clint was Ronin.

I see Lila becoming jealous of the time her dad is spending with Kate. 

Ready to see Yelena in the story - maybe we will even get a Julia Louis-Dreyfuss cameo?

[paigow]

Yelena is probably camped out at the farm wondering where the hell Barton is...

[Kel Varnsen]

59 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

Love that Clint seems to have told Laura about Ronin and she is supporting him in his attempt to get rid of the suit and the Tracksuit Mafia. Usually the wife will be in the dark or completely unsupportive of what the hero needs to do. Laura understands that it is not just about Ronin, the whole family is in danger is anyone ever figures out that Clint was Ronin.

Well based on the story of the Budapest mission we got in Black Widow Clint was up to some pretty bad shit even in his SHIELD days. So I can see why he might have to find some way to come clean to his wife on things in order for their relationship to work.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Finally watched both episodes.  I was... whelmed.  It was what I expected from the previews, which is not a good thing.  I know nothing of Kate Bishop from the comics, but my initial impression of Kate is: it's hard to root for someone whose "superpower" appears to be a combination of white privilege + a trust fund.

A knock-off Hawkeye of any stripe is just an even more boring Hawkeye, who was already The Most Boring Avenger.  Wake me when/if Yelena (who is awesome!) shows up.

[arc]

5 hours ago, cmahorror said:

I am in the camp that Kate's mom killed her dad and she is the real villain of the piece.

But then why wouldn’t she have deliberately steered Kate towards evil?

[Llywela]

5 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

 it's hard to root for someone whose "superpower" appears to be a combination of white privilege + a trust fund.

You must have really struggled with Tony Stark, then.

[SnarkShark]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:52 AM, Sakura12 said:

I'm just going with Kate's mom is shady because she's played by Vera Farmiga. Nothing in show has pointed to her yet. 

That's actually untrue.  Plenty has.  It's just more subtle than with Jack. 

-The turnaround in their finances

-The opening animation is not JUST about Kate learning all her skills.  It's also about her being taught. The person doing the teaching is clearly her mother, obvious from the silloute.  Kate developing those skills is clear to us, because we know her motive.  Her mother having them is suspicious, because other than visual acknowledgements, the show seemingly is deliberately avoiding addressing them. We also see photos of a female athlete in 2012 that has to be the mother. 

-The color pallette.  The mother's color palate changes to her always wearing red, a power color.  This is more of a hint than proof, of course. 

-If her fiance is suspicious because she fought with his uncle before his death, inherently, so is she, for even more reason. 

-She's too blasé about Kate's shennaningans. It's almost as if she's not surprised by what she's hearing. Someone recognized Kate by her voice when she spoke in that suit.  It might still be Jack. But perhaps he told his fiance.

She's clearly not in charge of the Track Suit Mafia or Echo, the er.... Mini-boss of that conflict.  But it almost seems like there are two sides here.  The killer has nothing to do with those Russians. 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, SnarkShark said:

That's actually untrue.  Plenty has.  It's just more subtle than with Jack. 

For th turn around in the finances when the parents were fighting one of them literally said that a solution wouldn't fall from the sky. Then a wormhole opened up, their house was destroyed and dad was killed. So I took that as the battle of NY saved them, between life insurance, home insurance and any kind of government relief they probably made some cash. Then again we never saw a body so it is possible that dad didn't actually die.

[paigow]

It is likely that Jack arranged the auction robbery... He bid, but actually had no cash to settle

[blackwing]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:58 AM, Fool to cry said:

There are fans of Kate in the comics who are watching only because of her and who hate MCU Hawkeye both because they don't like Renner and they prefer the Matt Fraction depiction where he's a single guy who's a mess. I say if you want that version watch Johnny Lawrence in COBRA KAI. The first Iron Man movie pretty much destroyed any chance of seeing the comics version of Hawkeye. Why do we need a wisecracker who annoys Cap when we already have one but who's rich, a scientific genius and got a cool suit of armor instead of just shoots arrows? Fans liked him when it seemed he was Black Widow's love interest but AGE OF ULTRON  ruined their Budapest fanfics. Then handsome young  Pietro gets killed saving him, he's shown killing POC  and Natasha  sacrifices her life for him in Endgame and Clint is pretty much forever persona non grata for a segment of the fan base. 

Comic book Hawkeye is my favourite comic book character ever.  I love his irreverent humour.  So I've never really cared for the ultra serious MCU Hawkeye.  But I think the assertion that fans hate Hawkeye because Quicksilver died instead of him, he killed POC people, and Black Widow died instead of him, is a bit of a generalisation.  I don't like the personality of Hawkeye in the movies, but any Hawkeye is better than no Hawkeye at all.

I'm glad to see him lightening up a bit in this show, and I did appreciate the explanation that Kate gave about how he is learning how to open up, thus explaining why his personality here is quite a bit different from his personality in the movies.

That said, I am not liking the direction this show is going, in which it seems obvious that after five more days traipsing around New York battling bad guys, Clint is clearly going to hang up his bow, retire to Iowa, and give Kate Bishop the mantle of Hawkeye.  In the comics, Kate was already an archer and called herself Hawkeye as tribute to Clint Barton, who the world thought was dead.  To this day in the comics, they both continue to be active and both call themselves Hawkeye.  Sometimes Clint even refers to himself as Hawkguy to distinguish them.  Frankly, I always thought she should have picked a new codename after he came back from the dead.

On 11/28/2021 at 6:07 AM, moonshine71 said:

Also, exactly how old is that pizza? Kate has been at school. Kate got into town, told her mom she was going to make a quick stop by her apartment and then come over. That led straight into the party and the rest if the nights events. Did Kate, during her quick stop, order a large pizza and eat all if it except for one slice? Possible, but when she is looking for something to feed the dog, I get the distinct vibe of "I wonder what I have in here, oh, just this old slice if pizza", which I would assume she would know already if she had just ordered and ate it and then put the leftovers in an otherwise completely empty fridge.

Some people have no issues feeding their dog anything and everything.  Kitchen table scraps, food snuck under the table by kids, etc.  Dogs aren't supposed to eat some foods, but some people don't listen to that.  I know a particularly irritating woman in my community who boasts that her dog eats better than most humans, every night she fries a piece of salmon or halibut for him.

I was more concerned that it didn't even look like Kate gave the dog any water.  Or took him out to go to the bathroom.  Seriously, at least some mention of whether the dog is peeing all over her apartment would have been appreciated, just so we could see that she gave the matter some thought.  This dog is a stray and clearly isn't trained to use a pee pad like more than a few New York City apartment dwelling dogs are.

[Wynterwolf]

14 hours ago, arc said:

But then why wouldn’t she have deliberately steered Kate towards evil?

That's a good question, but I think they did a nice job of showing the ideological differences between Mom and Daughter, so I suspect that mom knows her daughter would not approve of her 'methods' (which I'm sure is all she considers them to be, and that she is just using her resources like any good amoral, rich, power-hungry member of society might). 

[wlk68]

On 11/28/2021 at 9:41 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Well based on the story of the Budapest mission we got in Black Widow Clint was up to some pretty bad shit even in his SHIELD days. 

From his introduction scene in Thor, we know that Hawkeye is, among other things, a sniper. I'm betting that over the course of his career he killed a lot of people for SHIELD. All of them really bad, I'm sure. 😉

Both he and Natasha were spies and assassins. Kinda like the Bruce Willis and Karl Urban characters in the movie Red. These are people who, unlike Captain America, worked in the shadows for their country. A very, very gray area. Practically black. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by wlk68

[Morrigan2575]

On 11/25/2021 at 3:24 PM, Dani said:

The argument she had with Armand directly points to her being shady. He accused her of building her company on a lie and threatened to expose her. It seemed so obvious to me that they are making her look suspicious that I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a red herring. 

Wow, you were able to hear what they argued about? I totally missed it. 

I'm torn between Mom being shady/evil and mom being mixed up with a bad crowd. It would be cool if she was a criminal mastermind but, I would hate for Kate to lose her mom. Despite their issues you can see how much they love each other, IMO.

I'm totally enjoying this show. It's only 2 episodes but, I'm already sold on Kate and Clint/Kate partnership.  I like that we're getting a bit of a snarky Clint now. Also like all the callbacks to the movies.

I've never been a fan of Clint's family life (Thanks, Joss 🙄) so I'm glad they're back on the farm. That being said, little Nate is adorable

[Ailianna]

Call me slow, but I just realized Nate is the baby Client's wife was pregnant with when we met her. Natasha was joking that the baby would be named after her, and they let her know it was a boy. But he is named after her anyway. And that would be before Vormir, which also says something about her relationship with the whole family. I do think Clint keeps his wife fully informed and because of that she can completely trust him.

[arc]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Wow, you were able to hear what they argued about? I totally missed it. 

It was practically inaudible, but it’s there in the subtitles/closed captions.

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Call me slow, but I just realized Nate is the baby Client's wife was pregnant with when we met her. Natasha was joking that the baby would be named after her, and they let her know it was a boy. But he is named after her anyway. And that would be before Vormir, which also says something about her relationship with the whole family. I do think Clint keeps his wife fully informed and because of that she can completely trust him.

We've known the baby's name since the end of Ultron, haven't we? There's a little sequence at the end of the film where we see that the baby has been born and is wearing a onesie with Nathaniel Pietro emblazoned on it, showing that he was, after all, named after Clint's best friend plus the man who saved his life.

I agree that the franchise was and is at pains to highlight how close Natasha was not just to Clint but to his whole family, and that his wife is fully aware of everything he does.

[SnarkShark]

3 hours ago, arc said:

It was practically inaudible, but it’s there in the subtitles/closed captions.

"Built on a lie" was audible. The rest, not so much. 

[Ailianna]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

We've known the baby's name since the end of Ultron, haven't we? There's a little sequence at the end of the film where we see that the baby has been born and is wearing a onesie with Nathaniel Pietro emblazoned on it, showing that he was, after all, named after Clint's best friend plus the man who saved his life.

I agree that the franchise was and is at pains to highlight how close Natasha was not just to Clint but to his whole family, and that his wife is fully aware of everything he does.

I never caught the name in Ultron, and even hearing him called Nate in show didn't immediately make me realize. Like I said, I'm slow on this one. It's one of those more subtle things but shows how much Natasha was a part of the Barton family.

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I never caught the name in Ultron, and even hearing him called Nate in show didn't immediately make me realize. Like I said, I'm slow on this one. It's one of those more subtle things but shows how much Natasha was a part of the Barton family.

I know you missed or forgot it, that's totally cool, there are plenty of issues with Ultron.

There was also the scene at the house when Natasha kissed the belly and said hello little Natalie and the wife (god I can't remember her name) replied little Nathan and then, Natasha said "traitor".

I actually really liked that scene. As much as I expected Nat/Clint after Avengers and Winter Soldier, the Auntie Nat stuff worked for me. Although, I still hate most of Wheden's choices in Ultron regarding Natasha. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Kel Varnsen]

On 11/29/2021 at 4:52 PM, wlk68 said:

Both he and Natasha were spies and assassins. Kinda like the Bruce Willis and Karl Urban characters in the movie Red. These are people who, unlike Captain America, worked in the shadows for their country. A very, very gray area. Practically black. 

I would say full black. I am not sure this needs spoilers but in Black Widow Natasha and Clint,

Spoiler

Blow up an entire building knowing it will likely kill at minimum a kid inside just to try and kill a bad dude. Who they don't even succeed in killing

And my favourite little thing about Captain America: The Winter Soldier is how Fury hires mercenaries to take over the ship knowing they will likely be killed in the rescue operation and never even thinks twice about it. So basically Shield people, even the non-Hydra ones have pretty much guaranteed to have been involved in some very questionable shit.

[calliope1975]

On 11/29/2021 at 1:52 PM, wlk68 said:

Both he and Natasha were spies and assassins. Kinda like the Bruce Willis and Karl Urban characters in the movie Red. These are people who, unlike Captain America, worked in the shadows for their country. A very, very gray area. Practically black. 

Also reminds me of Rogue One and Diego's Luna's character who talks about doing the very dirty work needed to overthrow an oppressive regime. The heroes get to ride in and save the day, but the intel comes from people engaging in questionable, but perhaps necessary activities and willing to work in that grey to black area.