TV Tropes: Love 'em or Loathe 'em

[Bastet]

9 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I'm not sure if I know even one person who doesn't drink something caffeinated in the morning, although I know there are people out there who don't. I admire their discipline.

I don't drink anything other than water during the day.  It has nothing to do with discipline, though; I don't drink coffee, the tea I sometimes drink is decaffeinated, and it would never occur to me to drink a soda in the morning (I hardly ever drink one, period, but when I did it was as a mixer or with a to-go lunch).  I think my only source of caffeine is dark chocolate, and I don't eat that in the morning. 

[Dr.OO7]

Speaking of dressing. . .

TV women never sleep nude or wear sexy nightgowns to bed. It's always frumpy pajamas/T-shirts, etc. Sexy lingerie is only for special occasions.

(For added bonus, to demonstrate how downhill the relationship has gone, the guy will barely notice.)

[Stats Queen]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I'm not sure if I know even one person who doesn't drink something caffeinated in the morning, although I know there are people out there who don't. I admire their discipline. I tried for years to quit coffee and eventually decided to quit quitting. It was bigger than I was. 

One year I gave up caffeine for Lent, the next year I gave up Catholicism 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Camille said:

And it's always coffee. Nobody hates it? Nobody drinks tea?

Or hot chocolate??

Also, hot chocolate is either only for kids, or only for Christmas.

 

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I don't drink anything other than water during the day.  It has nothing to do with discipline, though; I don't drink coffee, the tea I sometimes drink is decaffeinated, and it would never occur to me to drink a soda in the morning (I hardly ever drink one, period, but when I did it was as a mixer or with a to-go lunch).  I think my only source of caffeine is dark chocolate, and I don't eat that in the morning. 

I'm similar, except that I also typically drink fruit juice, but I'll eat dark chocolate anytime! :) [But I'm from a culture that frowns on caffeine, so....]

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I wouldn't never. I was one of those teens who waited as long as I could before getting up every morning for school. I calculated down to the second how much time I needed to get dressed, eat and go the bathroom to the bare minimum. I hated getting up early in the mornings. 

You sound like my sister :D. I very clearly remember my mom constantly yelling at her to get up in the mornings. No matter what they tried to do to make it so she'd wake up sooner, it never seemed to work.

I hate getting up early, too, but I can force myself to do so if need be. 

[Jacqs]

@Bastet @Camille @auntlada I didn't realize that that the child actress is wearing white stockings, not pantyhose. Blame that mistake on the IMDb discussion from years back plus someone there mentioned the Christmas stereotype of female children in velvet dresses and white pantyhose and black shoes.

Ellen Hamilton Latzen's mom said the "Family Ties" costume people also insisted on doing something girly with Ellen's short hair (putting a flower in it). the episode was filmed just after Fatal Attraction and the stupid "is it Allan or Ellen?" remarks.

[Danny Franks]

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

As someone who doesn't like coffee (like the smell, but hate the taste), that's the one that always sticks out at me: Seemingly everyone on TV drinks coffee.  I understand that a large percentage of Americans start every day with coffee, but just among my close friends and family, there are three of us who don't drink it at all.  We're not that rare, certainly not as rare as on TV.

I started drinking coffee a couple of years ago, after believing I hated it for most of my life. Turns out I just needed to try good coffee, made with a cafetiere (french press) rather than instant. But I still get really irritated by the trope of 'ugh, I just can't function without my coffee, don't even talk to me' that has been so ubiquitous on television that I often hear people saying it in real life.

Come off it. One cup (or sometimes, it just takes one mouthful) of coffee is not going to miraculously make your brain start working. As if it wasn't already working anyway.

[kiddo82]

On the "everyone has a full meal for breakfast" trope, the title credits for Dexter always made me laugh.  They were very well done but the idea that he sat down to grapefruit, eggs, ham, and pressed coffee every morning (and apparently one after the other.  he didn't prepare them/eat them all at the same time) is like "yeah. pull the other one."

[Luckylyn]

I never drink coffee but every morning I make myself breakfast before work usually a cheese omelette with turkey bacon.   I’m a “Don’t talk to me til I’ve eaten breakfast person.”  I have to eat before I feel fully awake. I didn’t used to be that way but when I developed medical issues from being obese I had to make some changes which surprisingly meant more eating more meals more consistently.  I’m now at a healthy weight and never skip meals like I used to when I was over weight. I make the time to cook and try to avoid getting takeout every day like I used to do.  

One trope I hate is a woman who’s set on not having kids ending up happily pregnant.  Sometimes people do change their minds about having kids but there are people who choose not to.  I wish the choice to be childless was treated as a valid choice and not a character flaw a woman has to get over.

[Wiendish Fitch]

25 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

One trope I hate is a woman who’s set on not having kids ending up happily pregnant.  Sometimes people do change their minds about having kids but there are people who choose not to.  I wish the choice to be childless was treated as a valid choice and not a character flaw a woman has to get over.

You and me both. There are plenty of sound and valid reasons for not wanting kids; not that it matters, because having or not having kids a very personal choice, and no one has the right to judge you for it. I loved how Bernadette on The Big Bang Theory initially didn't want children, and hated that they changed that. No, I'm not saying people don't have the right to change their minds, or that they can't change their minds, and I normally love character development. What raises my hackles is the assumption that women who don't want kids will change their minds, because they don't really know what they want. When they say they don't want kids, they don't really mean it.

As for me? I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I will never have kids, and I'm sure as shit not going to change my mind.

I demand to see not only more female characters on TV who are child-free by choice, and are framed in a positive light for it. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Wiendish Fitch

[Shannon L.]

13 hours ago, Camille said:

EVERYBODY on TV almost always seems to be ridiculously and elaborately overdressed for whatever it is they're doing.

Can I add that not everyone dresses fancy for Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner or pulls out all the fancy dishes and silverware?  I know some do, but as long as no one in my family is wearing old, beat up clothes, or sweats and sweatshirts, I'm fine with that.  Clean jeans and a nice shirt is sufficient for our family holiday meals (in the home, of course, a really nice restaurant would be a little different).  Oh and not everyone stays up dancing/partying until midnight on New Year's Eve.  Some of us have friends over for dinner and games or a movie, then say goodbye early and go to bed well before midnight.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

One trope I hate is a woman who’s set on not having kids ending up happily pregnant.  Sometimes people do change their minds about having kids but there are people who choose not to.  I wish the choice to be childless was treated as a valid choice and not a character flaw a woman has to get over.

On that same theme, the one I hate is the idea that a woman's life is over because she's menopausal. I remember an ep of Mom where Bonnie was all "I'm no longer vital" or something about being vital. I was pissed! My vitality has nothing to do with my ability to get pregnant. FU. 

Having had terrible, unpredictable, painful periods my whole life I am THRILLED that I'm starting menopause. Bring it! Never had kids, not regretting it for a second. I can't wait to not have cramps, bloating, spotting before I'm due, or waiting for it because it's late. No more worrying about possibly getting pregnant. 

So yes, there is more to women than being big old baby incubators thank you very much!

Of course I'm one of those "weird" women who runs the other way as soon as someone whips out the baby pictures, but pull out pictures of your puppy and I am all over it!

[Bort]

45 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

You and me both. There are plenty of sound and valid reasons for not wanting kids; not that it matters, because having or not having kids a very personal choice, and no one has the right to judge you for it. I loved how Bernadette on The Big Bang Theory initially didn't want children, and hated that they changed that. No, I'm not saying people don't have the right to change their minds, or that they can't change their minds, and I normally love character development. What raises my hackles is the assumption that women who don't want kids will change their minds, because they don't really know what they want. When they say they don't want kids, they don't really mean it.

As for me? I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I will never have kids, and I'm sure as shit not going to change my mind.

I demand to see not only more female characters on TV who are child-free by choice, and are framed in a positive light for it. 

I can see why people would be upset about Bernadette, as her aversion to children was established pretty early on with her character. I actually don't find it unbelievable for someone who doesn't like children that much to eventually have any because, if you ever met my parents, you would wonder how I even got here because they both HATE children. Like, it's embarrassing how much they hate them. They liked me, though.

I didn't really get the uproar over Penny changing her mind. In the 11 seasons prior, she was totally open to having kids. She had only just that season said that she didn't want any so the fact that she changed her mind didn't bother me at all, because one thing that had been pretty well established is that Penny fears all that relationship and family stuff. They never really established why, as her parents seemed still happily married, but they did show how long it took for her to accept being in a relationship, to accept a proposal, to accept marriage. She changed her mind on all of these, so her eventually accepting motherhood was not out of character at all.

I don't really have any desire to see a female character written that doesn't want children and stands pat on the decision. It doesn't sound that interesting to me and I have a different holy grail female character I'd rather have: one who's not very feminine and who actually doesn't turn out to be gay or bi. This is the trope that I'm starting to find overdone. As a woman who loves her sports and hates wearing dresses and makeup, guess what? Some of us ARE straight. I was pretty disappointed that they took Rosa on Brooklyn 99 to the bi side. 

10 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm one of those "weird" women who runs the other way as soon as someone whips out the baby pictures, but pull out pictures of your puppy and I am all over it!

I pretend to text someone so I can get out of looking at people's kid pictures. This works if I'm in a group, not so much one-on-one.

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I pretend to text someone so I can get out of looking at people's kid pictures. This works if I'm in a group, not so much one-on-one.

Ooh, I'll have to try that. I usually try to stay towards the back of the pile of women who scrambled out of the woodwork to see the baby, then slowly slink away. 

[Homily]

The above conversations remind me of something else the idea that when a kid on a show has a grandmother (who isn't already an established character) she is almost always a little old white haired lady.  Really TV writers/casting people?  A ten yr old child may have an 80 yr old grandma but more likely she's in her 60s, still working and probably using Miss Clairol on that white hair!  Whatever else she is she probably isn't a frail old lady!

[Melina22]

18 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

have a different holy grail female character I'd rather have: one who's not very feminine and who actually doesn't turn out to be gay or bi. This is the trope that I'm starting to find overdone. As a woman who loves her sports and hates wearing dresses and makeup, guess what? Some of us ARE straight. I was pretty disappointed that they took Rosa on Brooklyn 99 to the bi side. 

Interesting and valid point! And by the same token, I have happily married, straight male friends who are hairdressers, interior decorators, etc. Stereotypes of all kinds can be tiresome. 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Ooh, I'll have to try that. I usually try to stay towards the back of the pile of women who scrambled out of the woodwork to see the baby, then slowly slink away. 

Getting on your phone and talking quietly to no one also works if you're somewhere you're not supposed to be.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

didn't really get the uproar over Penny changing her mind. In the

For me it’s two things 1. They had already pulled this tired trope with Bernadette and 2. We didn’t see her change or her feelings when finding out it was a time jump to oh she’s pregnant and her husband not her explaining how she feels/her change of heart. Also, since this always seemed to be their endgame throwing in the whole storyline about her not wanting kids and Leonard wanting them and than him seemingly coming around to not having kids was just a shitty device so that his reveal would be a surprise and that’s bad storytelling in my opinion.

[Bort]

3 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

We didn’t see her change or her feelings when finding out it was a time jump to oh she’s pregnant and her husband not her explaining how she feels/her change of heart.

I thought we did, because Penny had that talk with her father about it a few episodes prior and that was where I was convinced that she would eventually change her mind.

[Homily]

2 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I thought we did, because Penny had that talk with her father about it a few episodes prior and that was where I was convinced that she would eventually change her mind.

What I really liked about the way BBT handled this was that unlike most other sitcoms they didn't have Penny change her mind when Bernadette and Howard had their babies.  If anything seeing first hand how much work was involved probably made her decide "No way!"  Which was completely believable to me.

[biakbiak]

6 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I thought we did, because Penny had that talk with her father about it a few episodes prior and that was where I was convinced that she would eventually change her mind.

Glad that worked for you it most definitely did not for me.

[Homily]

5 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Glad that worked for you it most definitely did not for me.

I guess with regard to BBT it surprises me that anyone was surprised that Penny ended up being happily pregnant.  First of all no sitcom is under any obligation to have a character reflect our personal reality so anyone who was thinking "wow about time TV sitcoms had a woman not want kids just like me" was probably going to be disappointed, but second of all specifically with Penny, her not wanting kids was a late stage development that never reflected the Penny we had seen since the show began. 

It was a pretty dumb plot convenience to have a few stories in the last season or so finally have Penny and Leonard as central to the story.

Since this thread is about tropes that's the trope that bugs me - women on sitcoms beware odds are you will end up pregnant in the finale.  At least they hadn't had Penny and Leonard collect their adopted baby and then find out that she was pregnant!

[biakbiak]

3 minutes ago, Homily said:

guess with regard to BBT it surprises me that anyone was surprised

As I stated I wasn’t surprised and that it was clearly already endgame so I hated them reusing a tired trope that they had already used on the show for no apparent reason other than a surprise that wasn’t really a surprise at the end.

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I demand to see not only more female characters on TV who are child-free by choice, and are framed in a positive light for it. 

I'll add to that main characters.  It's long past time to start seeing some main female characters (and "normal" ones, not just dark and twisted anti-heroes) choose not to have children, stick to that choice, and remain happy with it.  There can be judgment from some other characters, of course, because we get that in real life.  But it needs to be presented as a good thing for her.  And be a characteristic that kind of lives in the background, as a basic part of her life, but not some big deal plot point.

[Melina22]

15 minutes ago, Bastet said:

It's long past time to start seeing some main female characters (and "normal" ones, not just dark and twisted anti-heroes) choose not to have children. 

For years I accepted the trope that all women would love their babies once they were born. And this often proved to be true. Until a friend of mine, who always said she didn't want a baby, had one anyway. And she was not a good mother. She wasn't abusive, just remote and unloving. (Fortunately the father was very affectionate to the baby.) And I realized that there are women who should never be mothers. We need to listen to them and not judge them. 

[andromeda331]

57 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I'll add to that main characters.  It's long past time to start seeing some main female characters (and "normal" ones, not just dark and twisted anti-heroes) choose not to have children, stick to that choice, and remain happy with it.  There can be judgment from some other characters, of course, because we get that in real life.  But it needs to be presented as a good thing for her.  And be a characteristic that kind of lives in the background, as a basic part of her life, but not some big deal plot point.

I really wish the Closer had gone that way with Brenda. She and Fritz never do have children. But she never comes out and says she doesn't want kids. She's had opportunities. The first time was after the dreaded pregnancy scare Fritz asks her if she wants kids, she says its too early to discuss that. A later episode they talk about a house in a good school district when they were house hunting, she says it not necessary. But doesn't come out and say it. If that was suppose to be her saying it. Then what's with season five when Fritz wants her niece Charlie to come visit as practice. There's also and episode before or after that when Fritz talks about turning their guest room into a nursery Brenda just mentions seeing her victim's mother crying and upset over losing her son. She never, ever comes out and says it. It would have been so great. A strong character who got married but chose not to have kids. There's hardly any women on TV who doesn't want kids and sticks with that, but also still gets married. They don't have to single forever. Unless of course they don't want to be married or in a relationship which is fine too and we don't really see either.

I always wondered on Castle whether Beckett ever wanted kids. She never really seemed interested. The episode when she and Castle end up watching a baby. Castle of course is going gaga he loves kids. But Beckett never does. She's not really interest in the baby. Which makes Castle decided they should watch him hoping it'll change her mind because he really wants kids. Which I get. He loves kids. He raised a daughter and definitely comes off as someone who would like more. He does mention he wants to parent a kid together. He raised his daughter on his own which was great but he wants to do it again with a partner. But Beckett never really does. She's fine with Alexis who's a teen and then college age when they start dating so she's never had to do anything but give advice from time to time. If she really doesn't want kids Castle shouldn't be trying to use a baby to change her mind. But at the end of the episode she says just because she's doesn't like other babies doesn't mean she won't like theirs. Yes, a lot of women do say that and a lot do like their own kids but not other peoples. It doesn't really come off like someone who really wants kids. Whether she doesn't want them period or it has anything to do with her mother dying and what it did to her. Who knows. She does have a dangerous job so maybe. Or she doesn't want kids. They don't ever really talk about it again until the series finale with the time jump to their three kids a girl and two boys. I'm still not sure she ever wanted them.

Edited June 2, 2019 by andromeda331

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Homily said:

Since this thread is about tropes that's the trope that bugs me - women on sitcoms beware odds are you will end up pregnant in the finale.  At least they hadn't had Penny and Leonard collect their adopted baby and then find out that she was pregnant!

Yep, pregnant or adopted a baby and pregnant. Or getting married. If one woman is getting married then another one is pregnant or giving birth.

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

A later episode they talk about a house in a good school district when they were house hunting, she says it not necessary. But doesn't come out and say it.

Yes, it's a sad commentary on how women who don't want kids are presented on TV that the "big house/good school district" conversation qualifies as a positive example. 

It's characteristic for Brenda to speak in code, so I'll give them that.  And, within that code, it's a very nice moment (one they should have had earlier, but whatever - again, I take what I can get).  He asks if they should think about the home's size and school district.  (Meaning we shouldn't buy this house if we're going to want to add a kid to the family.)  She asks if he thinks it matters.  He says that would have to be a joint decision.  She says she doesn't think it's something they need to worry about. 

A financially comfortable dual-income couple in their early/mid forties buying their first home in Los Angeles (with a notoriously spotty public school system) with no regard to number of bedrooms (there are only two) or school district (not great).  That means no kids.  Especially since this was a significant shift towards "I've concluded no" from her "definitely not now, I'm not sure about ever" attitude during an earlier pregnancy scare. 

She does not want kids.  Clear, boom, done.  That makes absolute sense with her personality, priorities, and lifestyle.  Thank you, and let's move on.  But the writers - and Fritz by extension - never quite got that through their heads (although she, thankfully, never had a kid, they would, as you noted, occasionally bring the idea up in wishy-washy ways).  So, despite it being oh-so-Brenda, given her overall nature and the southern indoctrination she sometimes struggled with her rejection of, to only be clear via coded language, the way they bungled it after that had me wishing she'd nevertheless just say it outright.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Bastet

[andromeda331]

1 minute ago, Bastet said:

Yes, it's a sad commentary on how women who don't want kids are presented on TV that the "big house/good school district" conversation qualifies as a positive example. 

It's characteristic for Brenda to speak in code, so I'll give them that.  And, within that code, it's a very nice moment (one they should have had earlier, but whatever - again, I take what I can get).  He asks if they should think about the home's size and school district.  (Meaning we shouldn't buy this house if we're going to want to add a kid to the family.)  She asks if he thinks it matters.  He says that would have to be a group decision.  She says she doesn't think it's something they need to worry about. 

A couple in their early forties buying their first home in Los Angeles with no regard to number of bedrooms or school district.  That means no kids.  Especially since this was a significant shift towards no from her "definitely not now, I'm not sure about later" attitude during an earlier pregnancy scare. 

She does not want kids.  Clear, boom, done.  That makes absolute sense with her priorities and lifestyle.  Thank you, and let's move on.  But the writers - and Fritz by extension - never quite got that through their heads (although she, thankfully, never had any, they would, as you noted, continue to bring it up sometimes in wishy-washy ways).  So, despite it being oh-so-Brenda, given her overall nature and the southern indoctrination she sometimes struggled with her rejection of, to only be clear via coded language, I found myself wishing she'd just say it outright.

I really wish she just say it too. It was clear she didn't want kids. But she never actually does and ends up being wishy-washy. She doesn't want kids but won't say it. The house conversation really should have been either her saying it out right or her saying it the way she did. That they didn't need to worry about districts and stuff. But they don't nor do they leave it there. They bring it up two more times. Three actually when their fighting about Charlie after Charlie had pot shipped to her and made brownies which Brenda ate. Fritz wants to send her home and Brenda brings up that "he's" the one who wants kids. At that point they've been together for four years and some months and married for the last several months. Even then she won't say that she doesn't want kids. 

[Bastet]

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

The house conversation really should have been either her saying it out right or her saying it the way she did. That they didn't need to worry about districts and stuff. But they don't nor do they leave it there.

Exactly.  The coded conversation is completely keeping with the character, and Fritz - and we the audience - know what she's really saying.  He determines it's not a deal-breaker for him; he'd like kids if she wanted to have them, but her not wanting them doesn't mean he can't be perfectly content with their life together.  It's a great scene, and a refreshing relationship. 

If they'd left it there, it would unequivocally stand as a positive example.  But they didn't commit.  It's that they not only had Fritz raise the issue again, but didn't have Brenda at that point resort to spelling it out (like Amy does in Major Crimes, when she tells Cooper she is not having kids and if the baby thing is that important to him, find someone else; otherwise, stop talking about it).  This character is a textbook example of someone who does not want kids, and also an example of someone who shouldn't have them.  Her choice is a good thing for her and in general.  Yet this notion of motherhood being a given for women is so ingrained that, even though they didn't script a pregnancy, the writers just couldn't contain themselves from revisiting it as a question, rather than a given.

[janie jones]

6 hours ago, Homily said:

I guess with regard to BBT it surprises me that anyone was surprised that Penny ended up being happily pregnant.  First of all no sitcom is under any obligation to have a character reflect our personal reality so anyone who was thinking "wow about time TV sitcoms had a woman not want kids just like me" was probably going to be disappointed, but second of all specifically with Penny, her not wanting kids was a late stage development that never reflected the Penny we had seen since the show began.

I haven't seen every episode of BBT, so, how did they show early on that Penny did want kids?  The only times I can think of where Penny talks about kids at all is when she's saying she doesn't want them.

[Homily]

7 hours ago, biakbiak said:

As I stated I wasn’t surprised and that it was clearly already endgame so I hated them reusing a tired trope that they had already used on the show for no apparent reason other than a surprise that wasn’t really a surprise at the end.

I really enjoyed the finale for BBT but if they missed a trope then I missed that!  About the only thing that happened that I was surprised about was them not matching Raj up with someone.  I can't think of too many sitcoms that bow out with a major character unattached.  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they did that and I stress that I did enjoy the finale , but they went out  in a pretty typical sitcom way.

[Melina22]

22 minutes ago, Homily said:

About the only thing that happened that I was surprised about was them not matching Raj up with someone. 

What happened to the Indian girl he was seeing? 

[Homily]

57 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

What happened to the Indian girl he was seeing? 

She gets a job in London and there is an episode where Raj considers moving over there and asking her to marry him but in the end decides against it.

[Homily]

2 hours ago, janie jones said:

haven't seen every episode of BBT, so, how did they show early on that Penny did want kids?  The only times I can think of where Penny talks about kids at all is when she's saying she doesn't want them.

It's not that they showed her wanting kids so much as they never showed it being an issue.  There were references once or twice to her having children eventually and you are never given any reason to think she hates kids (the way they did with Bernadette),  She was just young and not ready to commit to a long term relationship, let alone having kids for most of the series.  We're supposed to believe that boom bam suddenly she doesn't want kids and Leonard does yet this conversation had never come up in the 10-11 years they'd been friends/in a relationship/married?  Nope.  It was  just a typical "ooh feel the tension" move the writers took to create yet another conflict for them that never really rang true for me.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Homily

[Irlandesa]

11 hours ago, Homily said:

First of all no sitcom is under any obligation to have a character reflect our personal reality so anyone who was thinking "wow about time TV sitcoms had a woman not want kids just like me" was probably going to be disappointed, but second of all specifically with Penny, her not wanting kids was a late stage development that never reflected the Penny we had seen since the show began. 

It was a pretty dumb plot convenience to have a few stories in the last season or so finally have Penny and Leonard as central to the story.

Yeah but they did write it in so I think it's fair to judge, roll eyes and otherwise curse out the oh-so-bloody-common-and-predictable "She's pregnant" twist when there's absolutely zero reason to have it.  It's not like Kaley got pregnant and they decided to write it in. 

You're right that sitcoms don't need to reflect our reality but it grows super tiresome when it's not just the women who want kids ending up pregnant but the women who also don't want kids changing their minds, sometimes via an accidental pregnancy.  Sure, changing minds happens but not universally.  It's like TV writers have a very narrow view of what could be the utmost fulfillment of being a woman.

I once thought How I Met Your Mother was refreshingly awesome by having one of their characters not want kids but then they made it so she couldn't have kids and had her be all sad about it because even in their childfree-by-choice character, they had her attach value in her ability to procreate. Oh what a red flag that should have been about how the show ended.

Quote

Since this thread is about tropes that's the trope that bugs me - women on sitcoms beware odds are you will end up pregnant in the finale.

Wings is one of those Thursday night NBC shows that kind of gets lost in history but I loved it and praise its finale whenever I can.  One of the reasons, and only one of many, it's so great is that I expected the main couple to find out the wife was pregnant in the finale.  They were married and had wanted kids so it would have made sense. Nope, it was about how the woman had a dream professional opportunity (she's a cellist) after years of not thinking it'd happen for her and the sacrifices her husband was willing to make so they could move abroad for it. (And eventually what her brother-in-law and sister did as well.)

I'm sure kids were going to be in their future but I always appreciate it wasn't treated like the grand prize by the sitcom.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Irlandesa

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, Homily said:

It's not that they showed her wanting kids so much as they never showed it being an issue.

I don't watch the show (I saw a few episodes on an airplane, and rejected it for being sexist among other things), so I've just read this discussion from afar, but with a rather blanket statement I will now weigh in:  So if a woman doesn't explicitly state she doesn't want kids, the default assumption is she does - because, as a woman, of course she does, and that's the norm from which she must specifically state her intention to deviate?  So any later statement against wanting kids is inherently inconsistent not with prior statements in favor of parenting, but with the mere absence of statements against it?

Edited June 3, 2019 by Bastet

[Bort]

8 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Wings is one of those Thursday night NBC shows that kind of gets lost in history but I loved it and praise its finale whenever I can.  One of the reasons, and only one of many, it's so great is that I expected the main couple to find out the wife was pregnant in the finale.  They were married and had wanted kids so it would have made sense. Nope, it was about how the woman had a dream professional opportunity (she's a cellist) after years of not thinking it'd happen for her and the sacrifices her husband was willing to make so they could move abroad for it. (And eventually what her brother-in-law and sister did as well.)

I'm sure kids were going to be in their future but I always appreciate it wasn't treated like the grand prize by the sitcom.

I totally forgot about Wings -- and I had bought the series set last year and watched the whole thing. But you're right about how good a finale it had. Though at the time it aired, I don't think I appreciated it as much. But I do now love that Joe spent the whole series doing what he loves and realizing that Helen had never gotten that opportunity, so he wanted it to happen for her.

[Dr.OO7]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Since this thread is about tropes that's the trope that bugs me - women on sitcoms beware odds are you will end up pregnant in the finale.

Pregnant or giving birth. Dramas do it too. The Babies Ever After trope.

Passions took this to ridiculous levels in its finale, with the female half of EVERY couple announcing that she was expecting.

I too appreciated that Wings didn't do that Helen. That might be the only example!

[andromeda331]

8 minutes ago, Camille said:

Pregnant or giving birth. Dramas do it too. The Babies Ever After trope.

Passions took this to ridiculous levels in its finale, with the female half of EVERY couple announcing that she was expecting.

I too appreciated that Wings didn't do that Helen. That might be the only example!

Or adopting a baby or adopting a baby and finding out their pregnant.  

[cpcathy]

I had put the finale of Big Bang Theory on my DVR to record, then read spoilers (on purpose, which is routine for me) and then deleted it as soon as I found out Penny was pregnant.

[Homily]

4 hours ago, cpcathy said:

I had put the finale of Big Bang Theory on my DVR to record, then read spoilers (on purpose, which is routine for me) and then deleted it as soon as I found out Penny was pregnant.

Her being pregnant is a very small part of the whole finale -if you ever feel you can overlook this you might enjoy the rest of the story.  I know I did 🙂 .

[cpcathy]

I think Jim Parsons is a comic genius in the role of Sheldon, but yeah, maybe in awhile I'll watch it. I just can't with characters who previously not into having kids, suddenly being pregnant.

[tennisgurl]

Speaking of babies, I am sick of how often in shows or movies, if a woman has an unexpected pregnancy and first decides to put the baby up for adoption, she will inevitably change her mind at the last minute. She might have already picked out adoptive parents, have no resources to take care of this baby, have major life plans that a baby would not fit into, and is in no way ready for the responsibility of caring for a child, but when she sees that baby, its all BABY instantly. And she is always praised as this great hero for keeping the baby, no matter how much better it might be for everyone involved to give the child to living adoptive parents, because biology and mommy instincts is what matters...I guess. 

That is, of course, if adoption is even allowed to be an option during an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. Usually the only options people acknowledge exists are abortion or keeping the baby to raise, I guess because those are the options that are seen as more "dramatic" or whatever. Adoption what?!?

[ganesh]

In a rare plot for tv, Veep had one character get an abortion. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of babies, I am sick of how often in shows or movies, if a woman has an unexpected pregnancy and first decides to put the baby up for adoption, she will inevitably change her mind at the last minute. She might have already picked out adoptive parents, have no resources to take care of this baby, have major life plans that a baby would not fit into, and is in no way ready for the responsibility of caring for a child, but when she sees that baby, its all BABY instantly. And she is always praised as this great hero for keeping the baby, no matter how much better it might be for everyone involved to give the child to living adoptive parents, because biology and mommy instincts is what matters...I guess. 

That is, of course, if adoption is even allowed to be an option during an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy. Usually the only options people acknowledge exists are abortion or keeping the baby to raise, I guess because those are the options that are seen as more "dramatic" or whatever. Adoption what?!?

That would be so nice to see too. As much as I want to see a character who clearly has never shown an interested in having kids (Miranda, Jane Rizzoli, etc.) going through with an abortion. It would be really nice to see one deciding to go through with giving the baby up for adoption. Some women really don't have any interested in kids. Holding their own baby does nothing for them. Spending time with a baby or kid doesn't change that opinion. Most of the time it confirms it or their just happy to go home to their child-free home and resume their life. 

[MaryMitch]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of babies, I am sick of how often in shows or movies, if a woman has an unexpected pregnancy and first decides to put the baby up for adoption, she will inevitably change her mind at the last minute. She might have already picked out adoptive parents, have no resources to take care of this baby, have major life plans that a baby would not fit into, and is in no way ready for the responsibility of caring for a child, but when she sees that baby, its all BABY instantly. And she is always praised as this great hero for keeping the baby, no matter how much better it might be for everyone involved to give the child to living adoptive parents, because biology and mommy instincts is what matters...I guess.

On "Mom", the first season was about Violet (the daughter) getting pregnant and deciding to give the baby up for adoption. That was basically the entire arc for the first season; discovering she was pregnant, telling the father, deciding to give up the baby, choosing the parents, waffling on her decision, giving birth, and saying goodbye to the baby. I was satisfied (and relieved!) with the ending, and the "Violet had a baby" even came up in later plot lines.

Of course, Violet eventually disappeared as a character altogether. I don't think it was the wrong decision for the show, because I like it even better now, but on the "Mom" forums we complain that Christy's children Violet and Roscoe aren't ever mentioned.

[Dr.OO7]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of babies, I am sick of how often in shows or movies, if a woman has an unexpected pregnancy and first decides to put the baby up for adoption, she will inevitably change her mind at the last minute. She might have already picked out adoptive parents, have no resources to take care of this baby, have major life plans that a baby would not fit into, and is in no way ready for the responsibility of caring for a child, but when she sees that baby, its all BABY instantly. And she is always praised as this great hero for keeping the baby, no matter how much better it might be for everyone involved to give the child to living adoptive parents, because biology and mommy instincts is what matters...I guess. 

One Life To Live drove me crazy with this when Jessica Buchanan got pregnant. After the usual Good Girls Avoid Abortion crap--despite explicitly deciding to have one given that she was only a teenager and zero relationship with the baby's father, she and the father go through numerous potential adoptive parents before deciding to keep the baby.

To add insult to injury, she gets hit by a car and loses the baby, so kudos to the show for failing to take a groundbreaking approach to any of the three options she could have gone with.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Camille said:

One Life To Live drove me crazy with this when Jessica Buchanan got pregnant. After the usual Good Girls Avoid Abortion crap--despite explicitly deciding to have one given that she was only a teenager and zero relationship with the baby's father, she and the father go through numerous potential adoptive parents before deciding to keep the baby.

To add insult to injury, she gets hit by a car and loses the baby, so kudos to the show for failing to take a groundbreaking approach to any of the three options she could have gone with.

I really hate when shows do that. Oh, no the surprise pregnancy. But then they won't do any of three options. If abortion is ever brought up she'll change her mind, if adoption is ever brought up she'll changed her mind. AND YET they think its a much better ending for that story is a pregnant teen hit by a car and loses the baby, or in Jane Rizzoli's case beaten in the stomach by a suspect. Oh, yeah, that is so much better then a trip to the abortion doctor or given the baby up for adoption. Or of course the "convenient" miscarriage. Like Julia's pregnancy in Party of Five just as she was going to get at abortion, what do you know? Miscarry. How exactly is a teen getting run over by a car so much better then a good adoption story or abortion? How exactly is watching a pregnant woman getting beaten so much better and less horrifying then adoption/abortion? 

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Or of course the "convenient" miscarriage.

I should have named it in my last post.

It's such a pathetically obvious way for a show's writers to avoid the controversy of having a woman decide to have an abortion but still find a way to get rid of the kid anyway.

As I wrote above, the Jessica Buchanan example had to be the most ridiculous example of this trope--she gets hit by a car at nine months pregnant and beginning labor.

Edited June 5, 2019 by Camille