S17.E09: Week 9

[CloseThisAccount]

12 hours ago, jade.black said:

the way he treated her because of one misjudged response, knowing full well what he signed up for, is red flags ALL OVER. That cyclical, gaslighting, maddening type of conversation would have been their entire relationship. He knew they would have had alone time without cameras within a few days. Either he was never actually in love with her and was acting for TV or he's been hiding some major abusive tendencies through the whole show thus far. And if he did suddenly realize that this girl is more shallow than he thought she was, he didn't have to turn that cold on her that quickly. It was obvious she genuinely didn't understand what had happened.

SO MUCH THIS! I came here to wail about my Greg, my dear, lost Greg, who of course had to come back or my life will have meant nothing, because, after all he's perfect, his love for Katie is perfect, his white, woven hoodie is perfect. (I teach Women's Studies, damnit! I'm supposed to know better!). I kept reading here, surprised, a little shocked, all these anti-Greg posts. A fake? Passive aggressive? Manipulative?  Well, let me tell you, I'm an expert in those relationships because I've been in them and I teach about them and Greg is nothing like those men. Those men leave you locked up in yourself, constantly self-questioning, never knowing what to say, always knowing you're wrong but never knowing why, forgetting why you felt right because their hurt is so much more overwhelming. Y'know, exactly like Katie from the time of his extreme I love you til the time he left. I didn't see it until Jade Black's above post but as soon as I read it a light bulb went off &, I swear, I feel like I know it like I know the law of gravity: Greg is not a good person to be in a relationship with.  Thanks so much for your post, Jade Black. You said you hoped writing it would help someone else avoid these kinds of relationships. I join in that. I also wrote to show how seductive they can be. You're smart, sophisticated, you'd never fall for this stuff, but then . . . I know it's only reality tv, but I got so sucked in it scares me. Just, it sucks to say it, but whatever your sex or gender or sexuality, be careful.

 

[violet and green]

I am a bit weirded out that on the basis of what seemed an eternity of wretched footage, but was really not that much more than fifteen or twenty minutes showing two people feeling hurt and/or misunderstanding one another, Greg is now a gaslighter, an emotional abuser, and (gulp) a psychopath! Because 'duping delight' is something the earlier researchers of psychopathy noted as a hallmark of psychopaths, not just liars per se.

 

[LakeGal]

Couples learn a lot from their first real fight.  You learn how the other one reacts (or doesn't react).  I have broken up with guys after our first fight. I have looked ahead to see a life with a person that fights in a way that I just can not live with.  The fight might have been over something silly.  But it showed how the guy deals with problems/misunderstandings.  Katie might have dodged a bullet here.  

[Kiss my mutt]

I wonder if the fact that Greg reminds her of her last boyfriend if that either consciously or unconsciously plays into their relationship. It would be interesting to know what ended that relationship and what kind of guys she is typically drawn to. 

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

I am a bit weirded out that on the basis of what seemed an eternity of wretched footage, but was really not that much more than fifteen or twenty minutes showing two people feeling hurt and/or misunderstanding one another, Greg is now a gaslighter, an emotional abuser, and (gulp) a psychopath! Because 'duping delight' is something the earlier researchers of psychopathy noted as a hallmark of psychopaths, not just liars per se.

Yup. You gotta love social media outrage and bandwagon group think. Like I said, the only thing I find truly toxic is Bachelor Nation and their ability to viciously villainize some of these people. 

[jade.black]

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

I am a bit weirded out that on the basis of what seemed an eternity of wretched footage, but was really not that much more than fifteen or twenty minutes showing two people feeling hurt and/or misunderstanding one another, Greg is now a gaslighter, an emotional abuser, and (gulp) a psychopath! Because 'duping delight' is something the earlier researchers of psychopathy noted as a hallmark of psychopaths, not just liars per se.

Appear on reality TV and you receive unsolicited armchair diagnoses when you act like an asshole. I'm against bullying anyone directly on social media, but these forums are fair game for discussion. You get what you sign up for.

[ljenkins782]

13 hours ago, violet and green said:

Well, this thread was more exciting than that episode. I am on Greg's side, but even so thought during that lengthy whatever it was that he would get exhausting pretty fast. I cannot believe Katie (is that her name?! I've watched every episode and seconds ago finished reading this thread and suddenly I'm not sure, maybe my braincells are dissolving from too much of this dreary schlock) basically iced Greg politely after his passionate outpouring, and then replied inanely, 'I love looking at you!' because she's thinking, Steady on, I still have to have sex with that randy bearded troll before your trial run. I really thought she would pick Greg or maybe Michael, and it was going to be a romantic end to a dull season, but no. Justin looks very freaked out! What a mess.

I find it impossible to judge the incident based on what was shown, if the argument really was hours and all we saw was a few minutes, there's literally no way it can be shown in context.

But since that's all there was, I have to say I found Katie's responses very odd. Her face was blank and all of her reactions seemed delayed. If this was the first interaction I'd ever seen of the two of them, I would think that she had zero feelings for this guy. Even if she was truly attempting to follow the "rules" and not give away the ending and trying to help the show tell a story, there was still a whole lot more she could have done to express her feelings while still avoiding saying out loud "it's you, I pick you, I love you, etc." 

As for Blake and the FS, it's been my experience that the ones who talk the most and obsess the most end up being terrible at actually doing the thing they spend their entire day thinking/talking about. So I'm not sure what she thinks she's in for there, but if an unattractive, immature little horndog is worth throwing away a potential relationship for..go with God, Katie. 

I do think some of the leads want that free pass of the FS and get annoyed when the person they're probably going to choose makes it clear that they're going to be upset if it turns out the lead slept with others during the show. so that may have factored into this blowup with Greg, it's beyond clear that he's not going to be like "hey, it's the part of the 'process,' no big deal.."

Quote

If Blake is her F1 (it cracks me up how no one is considering that Justin could be---ha), I don't know that they last.  But he also seems to be a relatively easygoing guy who understands the process and rejection more than anyone.

Justin, and Justin's parents, are as aware as the rest of us that his chances of F1 are zero...unless literally everyone else drops out, lol. It's gotta be awkward as hell to wind up in the F3 by default and try to fabricate a relationship that doesn't exist. It's like that guy with the Flock of Seagulls hairdo who wound up in the Real Contenders group after the great Drama Llama exodus. He wasn't there because he had a chance, he was there because there were a certain number of roses to give out and he had caused the least drama. So he stayed, but he kinda knew the score and went to Katie to get himself eliminated.

In other years, people hung on for the travel and vacation destinations, but cooped up in a mid-level hotel with these really cheaply fabricated dates? Nah, might as well get back to life if you're in that situation.

I don't blame his parents at all for opting out of the extended quarantine, it would have been a fool's errand. But it definitely added an extra layer of awkward to the already huge elephant in the room. 

Blake's mother, on the other hand, was ready for her close-up, wasn't she? The leather pants were a tad much. Guess the famewhore apple didn't fall far from the tree in this case.

[DEL901]

We all know that the Bachelorette often finds Mr Right Now, rather than Mr Right.  Odds are better than for the Bachelor, but still a long shot.   Unless she’s really found “the one”, then her best bet is someone she’ll enjoy spending the next 6-12 months doing the media rounds with, two years if they want to keep the ring, sell it and split the cash.  Her top 5 were:

1) Mr Bait and Switch.  After she let him go, he left a note that he’d be waiting, but when she asked him to return, he said no
2) Mr Single Dad.   Would she really be up for moving to Akron and dealing with a step son and 2 sets of in-laws?

3). Mr Resting Sad Face.   Alternatively mopey and scarily intense.    His way or the highway in matters of love and reality tv

4) Mr Who?  Nice guy…who paints?

5) Mr Sex Positivity.  Likes to laugh.  Physically compatible.   Doesn’t seem to want to get too deep emotionally.   Perfect for long walks in the rain  rolling in the hay and smiling for the press.   He needs a Green a card.  She needs a fake fiancé.   Sounds like a match made on ABC. 

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

4 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

5) Mr Sex Positivity.  Likes to laugh.  Physically compatible.   Doesn’t seem to want to get too deep emotionally.   Perfect for long walks in the rain  rolling in the hay and smiling for the press.   He needs a Green a card.  She needs a fake fiancé.   Sounds like a match made on ABC. 

Mrs. RaiderDuck thinks Katie and Blake will be perfect for each other, as they're both only in this for Instagram Likes and social media cache.

[chocolatine]

I won't speculate whether Greg is a "gaslighter" or just "intense," but it's obvious that the producers, who know him much better than the audience does, knew exactly which buttons to push to get him to pick the fight and then leave. They had him witness Katie's date with Blake on purpose, and I wouldn't be surprised if they coached Katie along the lines of "you're making it too obvious that Greg is the winner, you have to pull back a little to make it look like you're torn between him and Blake."

If Greg was an even-keeled guy who had genuine feelings for Katie and was pragmatic enough to understand that she has a show to finish, TPTB wouldn't have egged him on like that. 

[Jeanne222]

So will Greg become the next bachelor and that's what this is all about?

[chocolatine]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

So will Greg become the next bachelor and that's what this is all about?

I don't think so, based on how unpopular he seems to be with Bachelor Nation. Paradise is the best he can hope for.

[sauce62]

This is a very interesting discussion, very Greg-centric and not addressing the non-entity that is Katie. I find her vapid and uninteresting, going through the motions for the show. As for Greg, I could see where he was coming from. He just wanted some reassurance. I don't think he was that harsh. I have two issues with him: his faux joy at the stupid rain showers (who wants to get drenched in their clothes) and his (strangely unaddressed) porn-style reading over the speaker earlier in the season. That showed a side of him I definitely give side-eye to, much moreso than his (normal) attempt to get a caring response from Katie.

[saber5055]

4 hours ago, Thumper said:

Don’t you think production told Greg to go out on his balcony to see Katie and Blake?  
I mean, what are the chances the camera catches that moment of Greg out on his balcony??? 🙄🙄🙄

Of course they did. But then again, Greg on his balcony could have been filmed days before Katie's date with Blake. If you notice, he never said anything on that clip, it was all VO, added later. For all we know, TPTB sent Greg onto that balcony to film that segment before he left for the airport. If he really did leave for the airport. Could be each of the bachelors has a Mesnick Balcony Scene in their portfolio, just need to add some sound and it's good to go.

Like they said on The X Files: "Trust no one."

[violet and green]

5 hours ago, jade.black said:

Appear on reality TV and you receive unsolicited armchair diagnoses when you act like an asshole. I'm against bullying anyone directly on social media, but these forums are fair game for discussion. You get what you sign up for.

Oh, I am all up for armchair diagnoses. It's just, like many on here, I too have lived with emotional abuse and experienced gaslighting, and indeed have encountered the odd psychopath in my line of work, and Greg seemed to me more of an emotionally intense, fucked up, sensitive guy than any of the current diagnoses on this thread.

I don't think he acted like an asshole. I think he read the writing on the blank smiling dead-eyed wall that was Katie's face after his emotional outpouring of love and fulfillment and then reacted, or overreacted. I think his father's death is relatively recent, also.

[truthaboutluv]

5 hours ago, sauce62 said:

As for Greg, I could see where he was coming from. He just wanted some reassurance.

I feel like some of the overblown reaction to this situation is that there seems to be different interpretations of what actually happened, or at least what editing showed. I've read so many comments regarding Greg's acting like he didn't know what he signed up for and how he expected Katie to pull a Clare and be her Dale.

And I feel like unless I missed something, that is not the impression I got or what the issue was. I didn't feel like Greg's feelings were simply because Katie wasn't willing to stop the show immediately and that she was still going to continue the process. 

I think the issue is that he felt that he was no longer getting Katie, the person and instead, was getting Katie, the Bachelorette. As in she was following a script versus being present and real with him. And I think the reason it bothered him so much and why he harped on things like "how can you not know" is that in his mind, he'd thought they'd been building something real the whole time.

And yet at that point, right near the end, where conceivably they could be engaged in a few days, he was getting this robotic woman that seemed like she was following a script versus being a real woman with real strong feelings for him. I also believe that's why the whole "you're my number one" line seemed to trigger him as well. Because again, I think to Greg. all of this was such franchise speak versus a real conversation. 

And it would have been one thing had it been in the early days of the season. But he was likely thinking that they should have been past that kind of canned, robotic, Bachelorette script lines. I really feel like Greg wanted to feel like Katie was being real with him in the moment. That he was getting something real from her and instead it just seemed like she had gone into Bachelorette lead mode and emotionally was checked out. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by truthaboutluv

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

So will Greg become the next bachelor and that's what this is all about?

That montage at the end was certainly notable but can the producers really go out and select the only guy from the Top 5 who trashed the conceit of the show? 

Of course, it would be hilarious when he gets the end and hypocritically fucks all three of his fantasy suite ladies.

Overall, he has been such a mope all season.  We see that he might have more of a personality but TPTB certainly didn't show case it.  Is that the kind of personality they're going to want next season too? 

9 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Her face was blank and all of her reactions seemed delayed.

I still don't agree her face was blank but I think she was really taken off guard by how much something she said that he didn't even criticize her for at the time completely spun him out.  And I don't think she really knew where all this was coming from or what to say to make it better.  Plus, every time she tried to speak, he kept cutting her off. 

[Mswldflwr]

On 8/2/2021 at 9:58 PM, Kiss my mutt said:

Dudes jumping ship right and left but I wouldn’t be surprised if, in true bachelor fashion, he comes back to make the “most exciting bachelorette finale ever!”

I'm fairly certain Chris had that patented and took that saying with him.

 

[saber5055]

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

That montage at the end was certainly notable but can the producers really go out and select the only guy from the Top 5 who trashed the conceit of the show? 

The montage at the end was hilarious because all the dramatic shows do that for characters leaving the series, never to return, and main characters who have been killed off. I think TPTB applied both those scenarios to Greg with that ending clip. All that was missing was the "RIP Greg" at the very end.

[nlkm9]

23 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Of course they did. But then again, Greg on his balcony could have been filmed days before Katie's date with Blake. If you notice, he never said anything on that clip, it was all VO, added later. For all we know, TPTB sent Greg onto that balcony to film that segment before he left for the airport. If he really did leave for the airport. Could be each of the bachelors has a Mesnick Balcony Scene in their portfolio, just need to add some sound and it's good to go.

Like they said on The X Files: "Trust no one."

yes but he did say he saw them on their date and they looked so happy and it upset him--so I do think that occured

[Jax7917]

I hate when so many of the contestants say that “ they’ve never felt this way before about anybody .” That line is how you know the person is a BS artist . You mean to tell me this person you’ve been on maybe one date with who’s also dating 25 other people, is the strongest you’ve ever felt for someone ? I’m not saying you can’t be genuinely interested in someone on the show but all the “ I’m falling in love with you “ stuff is just too much for me to believe . 

[Hip-to-be-Square]

33 minutes ago, Jax7917 said:

I hate when so many of the contestants say that “ they’ve never felt this way before about anybody .” That line is how you know the person is a BS artist . You mean to tell me this person you’ve been on maybe one date with who’s also dating 25 other people, is the strongest you’ve ever felt for someone ? I’m not saying you can’t be genuinely interested in someone on the show but all the “ I’m falling in love with you “ stuff is just too much for me to believe . 

That's what bothers me a lot every season and I always wonder how the contestants' ex girlfriends feel watching this play out on TV having spent probably years in relationships with them all for nothing only to see them tell the lead who they barely know, "I've never felt this way about anyone before" "Nobody has checked all of these boxes for me in the past".  These guys are all social media fame opportunists who want a free vacation, free drinks and some grab ass along the way.  

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Jax7917 said:

I hate when so many of the contestants say that “ they’ve never felt this way before about anybody .” That line is how you know the person is a BS artist . 

Especially when it's a contestant who's been married or engaged before.

[saber5055]

1 hour ago, Jax7917 said:

I hate when so many of the contestants say that “ they’ve never felt this way before about anybody .” That line is how you know the person is a BS artist .

Although there is this to consider:

"I've never been on national television before and now I'm gaining X zillion followers and am a cinch to be on BIP and maybe DWTS and will be able to sleep with models and D-list actresses and TMZ paps will follow me ... all because YOU keep giving me roses and letting me have even more air time! I've never felt THIS WAY about ANYBODY before! I think I LOVE you!"

Reading between the lines is essential for this franchise.

[LindaT]

I don't think Greg is a gaslighter.  I think his face says it all when he realized Katie wasn't the person who he thought she was after he told her about his feelings for her and his happiness since his father's death.  You can see the moment Greg realized that marrying her would be a mistake. She didn't respond at all!  If you are at a bus stop and a total stranger tells you about his/her father's death, you would show more emotion than what Katie showed. Even my son thought her reaction was really weird before Greg said anything about it.  Saying that she likes the way he looks in response to everything he said showed a person either not listening, not caring or being so uncomfortable in the situation that they need to change the subject.  Episode 9 should be titled: "Greg Dodged the Bullet".

[Back Atcha]

On 8/4/2021 at 7:00 PM, truthaboutluv said:

And it would have been one thing had it been in the early days of the season. But he was likely thinking that they should have been past that kind of canned, robotic, Bachelorette script lines. I really feel like Greg wanted to feel like Katie was being real with him in the moment. That he was getting something real from her and instead it just seemed like she had gone into Bachelorette lead mode and emotionally was checked out. 

I agree with all of this and it brings to mind only one question: Has he ever watched the shows (Bachelor and Bachelorette)?

[TheFinalRose]

1 hour ago, Back Atcha said:

I agree with all of this and it brings to mind only one question: Has he ever watched the shows (Bachelor and Bachelorette)?

I sometimes feel the "have they ever watched the show?" complaint is too easy to land on. The show only works because real humans come on it and fall in "like/love" which can sometimes be bubble-induced temporary feelings and sometimes be real, lasting feelings (for a rare few but still, they do count.)

A guy who watches one, maybe two seasons of the Bachelor before coming on is in no way educated on all the potential pitfalls of his position. Would a cursory watching of a few seasons give Greg a long, institutional knowledge of how the producers manipulate the relationships for ultimate drama? Or how the final 1/2/3 implode and leave sometimes, or implode and stay sometimes?  Enough data to protect himself and his heart in the heat of the moment while cameras are rolling to to make the right decision to stay or leave?

Women, who make up the majority of the audience and come on it knowing what to expect still can be blindsided and can't separate the show from their feelings.  They all leave or stay having watched the show; they either get dumped or picked, much to their own surprise, even after watching the show. So watching the show is really useless for most contestants and provides little insurance against a happy or unhappy ending.

 

 

[halkatla]

Greg is the vilest and creepiest bachelorette contestant of all times. IKatie did not deserve this humiliation. I think he was auditioning to become "the bachelor". Ugh, I hope we never see him or hear of him again. He took being a fake asshole to unfathomable extremes.

 

ETA: There have been some scummy (to say the least) people on the show before but I´ve never actually been as shocked by anyone as I was by Greg. It´s just my opinion but what I saw during this episode was an unstable individual with abusive tendencies. Yes I´m going there and calling how he acted abusive. I really hope Katie can get away from him and never looks back because he is not a good man (imo). It´s obvious to me that his whole shy persona was an act. He gaslit her and projected his behavior unto her. It was horrible to watch. I was taken in by the last bachelor who pretended to be religious but was then all about sleeping with his top 3 and then treated his f1 like a mean jerk, and some have been very fake and massive liars, but I have never seen such a dark side come out on the show before and I hated to watch poor Katie (who I don´t really like that much) go through that. If they make him the bachelor then I´m DONE lol. I haven´t read this thread yet so I don´t know what other people are thinking and saying about this/him, I just had to get my feelings out because watching the latter half of this episode was awful.

ETA2: I looked over some replies and I guess I´m in the minority. I did see Greg clearly shifting, it happened in a second and he was suddenly so cold and nothing Katie could have said in that moment would have mattered. He was showing her who he is and it´s lucky that it happened before she was in a real relationship with him.

Edited August 6, 2021 by halkatla

[Back Atcha]

18 minutes ago, halkatla said:

Greg is the vilest and creepiest bachelorette contestant of all times.

OUCH!   I think he had some mental health issues and shouldn't have been passed by the franchise's "psychologist."  His mother did seem overly concernet about his being "hurt," so there is probably some history we'll never know.  Althouth I don't agree, I could give in to some creepiness, but vile?  Never.

[halkatla]

1 hour ago, Back Atcha said:

OUCH!   I think he had some mental health issues and shouldn't have been passed by the franchise's "psychologist."  His mother did seem overly concernet about his being "hurt," so there is probably some history we'll never know.  Althouth I don't agree, I could give in to some creepiness, but vile?  Never.

He treated her worse than anyone has ever treated a bachelorette or bachelor before. That makes him vile. Why give him an excuse by calling it "mentally ill"? He´s definitely not healthy though.

Edited August 6, 2021 by halkatla

[ljenkins782]

4 hours ago, halkatla said:

He treated her worse than anyone has ever treated a bachelorette or bachelor before. That makes him vile. Why give him an excuse by calling it "mentally ill"? He´s definitely not healthy though.

He did? I've only watched a handful of seasons but I can think of 10 examples of worse behavior than this. In last week's episode thread, people were discussing the "roast" in Ashley's season (which I never saw) and she was treated horribly by several of her would-be contenders and the youtube video was horrendous.

And again, it was an hours-long conversation edited into a few minutes so it's fairly ridiculous to assume that we know the entire dynamic of what went down.

[waving feather]

Even in recent seasons, there is Luke P. in Hannah B's season, and Yoseph from Clare's season who berated and belittled her.

Greg would not even make the top 20 in the bad behaviour list for me in all of Bachelor franchise history. 😆

[halkatla]

23 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

He did? I've only watched a handful of seasons but I can think of 10 examples of worse behavior than this. In last week's episode thread, people were discussing the "roast" in Ashley's season (which I never saw) and she was treated horribly by several of her would-be contenders and the youtube video was horrendous.

And again, it was an hours-long conversation edited into a few minutes so it's fairly ridiculous to assume that we know the entire dynamic of what went down.

Yeah that was probably an exaggeration but I haven´t watched every season so for me it´s the worst. I don´t agree that something edited out must have made his Jekyl and Hyde transformation justified. That´s like blaming Katie, when it was obvious that she couldn´t have said anything right, he would have trashed her no matter what. Just very creepy behavior on his part.

6 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Even in recent seasons, there is Luke P. in Hannah B's season, and Yoseph from Clare's season who berated and belittled her.

Greg would not even make the top 20 in the bad behaviour list for me in all of Bachelor franchise history. 😆

The difference being that Katie was in love with Greg, he had just told her that he loved her and he knew about her feelings. A person who can do that, humiliate and trash someone that they claim to love and have pretended so hardcore to have feeling for is much worse than when a random loser like Yoseph offends a woman he hardly knows. It can´t be compared.

Edited August 6, 2021 by halkatla

[ljenkins782]

2 minutes ago, halkatla said:

Yeah that was probably an exaggeration but I haven´t watched every season so for me it´s the worst. I don´t agree that something edited out must have made his Jekyl and Hyde transformation justified. That´s like blaming Katie, when it was obvious that she couldn´t have said anything right, he would have trashed her no matter what. Just very creepy behavior on his part.

No, it's really not blaming Katie. Or Greg. 

And how do you call something a Jekyll & Hyde transformation when you haven't seen the beginning, middle, and end in sequence? On TV, edited into a 10 minute sequence, of course it looks like a switch flipped and he changed instantly. But that's not how it happened in real life, so who the hell knows how it got to that point.

Maybe he is the biggest asshole out there, maybe he is a gaslighter IRL. Or maybe he's not. Frankly I kinda hope he IS an asshole in real life since he's getting tagged with that label far and wide. Better that it be true than that a nice guy is getting raked over the coals for one argument.

But I have no idea, I don't know him or Katie or the full story what happened.

[JenE4]

2 minutes ago, halkatla said:

Yeah that was probably an exaggeration but I haven´t watched every season so for me it´s the worst. I don´t agree that something edited out must have made his Jekyl and Hyde transformation justified. That´s like blaming Katie, when it was obvious that she couldn´t have said anything right, he would have trashed her no matter what. Just very creepy behavior on his part.

I’m really confused by this take. I understand that Katie is trying to campaign that he “gaslighted” her, so maybe people are just really buying into that. But Katie had no reaction to him pouring out his heart. She had a blank face, and the most she could muster up was, “I like looking at you.” I think Greg had every right to decide in that moment that if he’s begging her to show that her feelings matched his and she just refuses to do so, that this isn’t the person for him. Is he supposed to just marry her simply because she’s the star of the show?!? I don’t see how he “trashed her.” He just decided to break up with her. She’s the one going on social media trashing him by calling him a gaslighter. And apparently her campaign is working. 🤷‍♀️

[halkatla]

19 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

No, it's really not blaming Katie. Or Greg. 

And how do you call something a Jekyll & Hyde transformation when you haven't seen the beginning, middle, and end in sequence? On TV, edited into a 10 minute sequence, of course it looks like a switch flipped and he changed instantly. But that's not how it happened in real life, so who the hell knows how it got to that point.

Maybe he is the biggest asshole out there, maybe he is a gaslighter IRL. Or maybe he's not. Frankly I kinda hope he IS an asshole in real life since he's getting tagged with that label far and wide. Better that it be true than that a nice guy is getting raked over the coals for one argument.

But I have no idea, I don't know him or Katie or the full story what happened.

I call what I saw a Jekyll and Hyde transformation, because of the moment during their date when he suddenly "changed". He was euphoric after talking about how much he loved her and then suddenly it was like a flip was switched. You can call it whatever you want but I think the J&H thing fits. I´m judging what we saw on the show, of course we know nothing about these people in real life. I have my opinions on this character Greg from the show, I think he was acting scary, you and everyone else can completely disagree and that is fine. I didn´t see Katie do anything that warranted any of his attacks, but perhaps she said and did something during their "hours long" convo that explained it but was then edited out. I´m not going to give him the benefit of the doubt, I hope that´s okay lol. She has probably been very clear with him about where he stands on and off camera but it didn´t make it into the show. Even so, everyone knew almost right from the start that he was her f1, so him suddenly pretending to be in the dark about her feelings is laughable.

Edited August 6, 2021 by halkatla

[halkatla]

42 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

I’m really confused by this take. I understand that Katie is trying to campaign that he “gaslighted” her, so maybe people are just really buying into that. But Katie had no reaction to him pouring out his heart. She had a blank face, and the most she could muster up was, “I like looking at you.” I think Greg had every right to decide in that moment that if he’s begging her to show that her feelings matched his and she just refuses to do so, that this isn’t the person for him. Is he supposed to just marry her simply because she’s the star of the show?!? I don’t see how he “trashed her.” He just decided to break up with her. She’s the one going on social media trashing him by calling him a gaslighter. And apparently her campaign is working. 🤷‍♀️

I know nothing about what Katie has said. I don´t follow any of these people anywhere outside of the show. I just watched the episode and then came straight here and wrote what I thought about it. I was actually shocked for the first time ever from a bachelor/ette episode. I didn´t know she was using the word gaslighted. It´s become a very common description of certain tactics in abusive relationships and I was using it that way. I saw him showing signs that I felt were scary. Jmo.

And I´m quite sure that Katie and Greg had talked about their feelings during conversations that weren´t shown on the show. It´s not really an explanation for his reaction that she didn´t tell him enthusiastically enough that she loved him right then and there. She was quite clear with him and even his family about him being f1 and no viewer was left in doubt (I don´t think). So the "gaslighting" is him saying that she said and did other things than she did, and managing to actually confuse her. I wonder as a viewer what his reasons for doing it this way was, maybe he wanted to leave and was faking most of those feelings but I don´t think he was. He seems very unstable. It´s just very strange and sad.

Edited August 6, 2021 by halkatla

[Back Atcha]

5 hours ago, halkatla said:

He treated her worse than anyone has ever treated a bachelorette or bachelor before. That makes him vile. Why give him an excuse by calling it "mentally ill"? He´s definitely not healthy though.

I did not write "mentally ill," nor did I excuse Greg for anything.  He has deep-seated issues and should NEVER have been on a shallow program like this.  Surely his family already knew this.  He took every nuance too seriously. I disagree with the use of the word "vile."  I try to remember to blame the producers before I blame participants (even those cuties who are perennial contestants).  (Other woman have been treated worse on this franchise)

 

[tinkerbell]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

I’m really confused by this take. I understand that Katie is trying to campaign that he “gaslighted” her, so maybe people are just really buying into that. But Katie had no reaction to him pouring out his heart. She had a blank face, and the most she could muster up was, “I like looking at you.” I think Greg had every right to decide in that moment that if he’s begging her to show that her feelings matched his and she just refuses to do so, that this isn’t the person for him. Is he supposed to just marry her simply because she’s the star of the show?!? I don’t see how he “trashed her.” He just decided to break up with her. She’s the one going on social media trashing him by calling him a gaslighter. And apparently her campaign is working. 🤷‍♀️

I agree.  What I saw, even acknowledging that it was the edited version, was that Greg declared his love, and wanted an emotional connection, and what he got back was Katie giving him "bachelorette speak" not anything genuine and heart-felt.   Like he says "I am in love with you and want to build a life with you,"  and she says "Ooh, you're going to get my final rose!"  Yes, they're on what is essentially a "game show"  and the final rose means she will accept a proposal from him, but that's not what he was looking for from her.  A declaration of real feelings isn't the same as saying "I like you the best of all the 30 guys who competed for me."  

I don't think Greg is mentally ill, or unstable, or a gaslighter, or any of those other things people are saying about him.   I think he is a guy who realized that he let his guard down and believed that what they had was real, and he suddenly realized that this was just a tv show, and that the person he thought he was in love with doesn't really exist.  

[Back Atcha]

On 8/4/2021 at 11:57 AM, ljenkins782 said:

Blake's mother, on the other hand, was ready for her close-up, wasn't she? The leather pants were a tad much. Guess the famewhore apple didn't fall far from the tree in this case.

THIS!  LJenkinss5782, I loved your ENTIRE post.  Too bad, all I can give is some prescribed emoji.  What happens when Blake's "engagement" fizzles?  Will he, AT LONG LAST, get to be The Bachelor in 2023???

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Better that it be true than that a nice guy is getting raked over the coals for one argument

Sadly, reading so much cruelty here, I think this is the case...and that nice guy might not be equipped for the COALS!  

[halkatla]

42 minutes ago, Back Atcha said:

I did not write "mentally ill," nor did I excuse Greg for anything.  He has deep-seated issues and should NEVER have been on a shallow program like this.  Surely his family already knew this.  He took every nuance too seriously. I disagree with the use of the word "vile."  I try to remember to blame the producers before I blame participants (even those cuties who are perennial contestants).  (Other woman have been treated worse on this franchise)

 

 

42 minutes ago, Back Atcha said:

I did not write "mentally ill," nor did I excuse Greg for anything.  He has deep-seated issues and should NEVER have been on a shallow program like this.  Surely his family already knew this.  He took every nuance too seriously. I disagree with the use of the word "vile."  I try to remember to blame the producers before I blame participants (even those cuties who are perennial contestants).  (Other woman have been treated worse on this franchise)

 

Sorry, I meant "mental health issues" too. I thought it was the same basically. I´m very sorry for Greg. I thought what he did was vile but he´s also clearly mentally unstable and shouldn´t have come on the show. Agreed. However I didn´t see much indication with his family that they saw anything wrong with it or had doubts about his abilities to go through with it all. If they said anything I missed it. There have been so many anxious families scared about how getting hurt will impact their family member but Greg´s family just seemed rather chilled. And I adored Greg up until that moment on the couch when he "changed". That´s probably why I´m so angry and using all these "big" words to describe him like vile and the worst. His dumping of Katie was just so cruel and cold (from what we could see). He didn´t seem to show her any compassion, there almost has to be a reason for it but if it´s just his mental issues then there isn´t one. I´m 99% sure that she had made her feelings for him clear, she tried to explain why she couldn´t do it on camera before the final rose ceremony and people are using that to explain why he did what he did and why he left. I don´t think that makes sense. Such a terrible ending and a mess of this season.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by halkatla

[ljenkins782]

1 hour ago, halkatla said:

The difference being that Katie was in love with Greg, he had just told her that he loved her and he knew about her feelings. A person who can do that, humiliate and trash someone that they claim to love and have pretended so hardcore to have feeling for is much worse than when a random loser like Yoseph offends a woman he hardly knows. It can´t be compared.

Trashed and humiliated her? Must've closed my eyes for a second or two, definitely did not see anything that extreme occurring.

Quote

I call what I saw a Jekyll and Hyde transformation, because of the moment during their date when he suddenly "changed". He was euphoric after talking about how much he loved her and then suddenly it was like a flip was switched. You can call it whatever you want but I think the J&H thing fits. I´m judging what we saw on the show, of course we know nothing about these people in real life. I have my opinions on this character Greg from the show, I think he was acting scary, you and everyone else can completely disagree and that is fine. I didn´t see Katie do anything that warranted any of his attacks, but perhaps she said and did something during their "hours long" convo that explained it but was then edited out. I´m not going to give him the benefit of the doubt, I hope that´s okay lol.

My point is that you actually have no way of knowing what happened "in a second" on an edited show. In the editing room, they have the freedom to cut and splice together a sequence of completely unrelated moments, snippets of conversations, facial responses. They can even overdub audio over someone completely out of context if they're not onscreen or facing the other way.

So the armchair diagnoses coming from the this thread, which I know you didn't read anything before your own post since you announced it, but there are tons of people ahead of you also turning on a dime over this one piece of edited video and deciding that Greg is a psychopath/gaslighter/emotional abuser.

And who knows, maybe he is? But the fact that it's being determined from a short, edited clip of a much longer discussion is reminiscent of people watching soap operas and deciding that the actor playing the "villain" is a bad person in real life and sending the actors hate mail based on lines they recited on television. 

 

[halkatla]

31 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

So the armchair diagnoses coming from the this thread, which I know you didn't read anything before your own post since you announced it, but there are tons of people ahead of you also turning on a dime over this one piece of edited video and deciding that Greg is a psychopath/gaslighter/emotional abuser.

And who knows, maybe he is? But the fact that it's being determined from a short, edited clip of a much longer discussion is reminiscent of people watching soap operas and deciding that the actor playing the "villain" is a bad person in real life and sending the actors hate mail based on lines they recited on television. 

 

My opinion is that he was an abusive jerk in that moment and all through-out the dumping of Katie. So what? It´s what happened... It doesn´t mean that he should be labeled and excluded from life because of this one thing. But is it so horrible to think that he was awful and Katie didn´t deserve it? Lets just try to agree to disagree, I can´t rehash this endlessly. I just wanted to went.

[nlkm9]

2 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Trashed and humiliated her? Must've closed my eyes for a second or two, definitely did not see anything that extreme occurring.

My point is that you actually have no way of knowing what happened "in a second" on an edited show. In the editing room, they have the freedom to cut and splice together a sequence of completely unrelated moments, snippets of conversations, facial responses. They can even overdub audio over someone completely out of context if they're not onscreen or facing the other way.

So the armchair diagnoses coming from the this thread, which I know you didn't read anything before your own post since you announced it, but there are tons of people ahead of you also turning on a dime over this one piece of edited video and deciding that Greg is a psychopath/gaslighter/emotional abuser.

And who knows, maybe he is? But the fact that it's being determined from a short, edited clip of a much longer discussion is reminiscent of people watching soap operas and deciding that the actor playing the "villain" is a bad person in real life and sending the actors hate mail based on lines they recited on television. 

 

Honestly she and he have been fooling around physically end are very into each other ( we’ll never know how physical they are at this point) at this point of show i have seen where it’s obvious who the final guy is , and i don’t think it’s that strange that he wanted some clarity . This is why i would never ever last on this show . Even a kiss would be meaningful to me . If he was really the one which is what she said she could have said no to test driving the last 2 guys and left with him there . Obviously he is not the one and i think he was pissed. I do think his fathers death has caused him a lot of pain and he is not really ready for a serious relationship . 

Edited August 6, 2021 by nlkm9
Error

[tinkerbell]

3 hours ago, halkatla said:

Sorry, I meant "mental health issues" too. I thought it was the same basically. I´m very sorry for Greg. I thought what he did was vile but he´s also clearly mentally unstable and shouldn´t have come on the show.

Chiming in as a licensed mental health professional, I do NOT see that Greg is "clearly mentally unstable," not at all.  He thought he was in love, he realized he had been fooled, and he bailed.  If he didn't want to PROPOSE MARRIAGE , he pretty much had to leave, rather than go through with fantasy suite and rose ceremony.  

Edited August 6, 2021 by tinkerbell

[Back Atcha]

3 hours ago, halkatla said:

However I didn´t see much indication with his family that they saw anything wrong with it or had doubts about his abilities to go through with it all.  If they said anything I missed it.

Perhaps I "heard" between the lines. His mother said, "So great to see the light back on in him--but getting hurt, getting crushed...that would be my biggest fear."

His mother's using the words "crushed" and "biggest fear" regarding an adult male (on television)? They seem like "doubts" to me.  I think there's some history that causes her worry.

[nlkm9]

I also think his mom wanted as much tv time as possible. Wait that was Blake’s mom 😂

[call me ishmael]

42 minutes ago, tinkerbell said:

He thought he was in love, he realized he had been fooled, and he bailed.

As someone who spends a lot of time professionally carefully reading writing, I would say that this is a very interesting sentence..  Personally I don't agree that he "realized" that he had been fooled although maybe he "decided" that he had been fooled.  "Realized" implies that he was correct that Katie was faking it.  But I do like the ambiguity of the sentence since as a sentence it could read that he realized that he had been fooling himself and realized that he wasn't as in love as he thought.  Personally, I think that he got out ahead of his own feelings as a result of his conversations with his family and overreacted.  I've seen plenty of people talk themselves ito strong emotions that just aren't there.  Although I admit I'm just an amateur at observing people's behavior.

[halkatla]

29 minutes ago, Back Atcha said:

Perhaps I "heard" between the lines. His mother said, "So great to see the light back on in him--but getting hurt, getting crushed...that would be my biggest fear."

His mother's using the words "crushed" and "biggest fear" regarding an adult male (on television)? They seem like "doubts" to me.  I think there's some history that causes her worry.

It´s probably true, I just saw them being so happy and easy-going, they seemed like a caring and care-free family so I wasn´t really paying to much attention to what could lie beneath.

[halkatla]

52 minutes ago, tinkerbell said:

Chiming in as a licensed mental health professional, I do NOT see that Greg is "clearly mentally unstable," not at all.  He thought he was in love, he realized he had been fooled, and he bailed.  If he didn't want to PROPOSE MARRIAGE , he pretty much had to leave, rather than go through with fantasy suite and rose ceremony.  

 

I would have loved it if he had said that he wasn´t ready or wasn´t feeling it when he was dumping Katie. I thought the way he handled it was so rude and just very mean. So totally out of the blue also, which is why I feel he is unstable and wasn´t ready or really feeling it like he thought.