S01.E08: Proof

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

Why? I think it probably happens more than fictional dramas would have us believe. My high school had some jerks and snoots but it was nothing like a John Hughes "divided cliques" kind of thing at all.

I only noticed The Pixies in this one (which I thought was the real song, not a cover? Weird, I actually just heard that song over the weekend)--what else was there?

Here is the amazing, original one from the album

 

[Blue Plastic]

23 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Greg did jump into a relationship with Angela, but it seems he is right that Cindy left him. She said she was going to her sisters because she needed space. Greg then called her to tell her she was right about the key and to ask  her to come home, she says no.

I believe that Greg checked that the key opened the door to Martin’s house a year after Joy told him that. By the time he called her, she had already moved on. But yes, she did leave.

Not sure how Janette and Vincent were supposed to “guard” Mallory while she set the prank tape to play.  They wouldn’t be able to audibly warn her and probably couldn’t convincingly turn any adults away. In fact, all the kids seemed to have the run of the school grounds, which was very much NOT allowed at my high school in the 1980s (in Texas).  If any of us had been lurking in a hallway when we were supposed to be elsewhere, we would get in trouble.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Blue Plastic
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[CarpeFelis]

I didn’t feel the least bit sorry for Mallory when she was the only one of the three who got detention. She was the one who came up with the idea of the list, she was the one who kept pushing for them to do illegal stuff, and playing the tape was her idea.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

 Or maybe they are going to surprise with a Season One Part II called Cruel Winter (kidding).

You joke, but that is what I'm expecting other than the name change.  Barring this being originally conceived as a limited 10 episode series or something like American Horror Story where the cast plays out different stories each season or a more typical anthology where every season is a different story and different cast, there is no way they are going to wrap this up in ten episodes.  Having three timelines, one year apart, with Kate captive until the beginning of the second year, while only moving through summer pretty much guarantees that.  They've left nine months untold.  They aren't going to cover that just in flashback or in the last one to two episodes.

[TattleTeeny]

Regarding the Pixies (but admittedly off-topic), I feel that their version of Head On is better than the original! Oooh, they should work that into the show!

[Cinnabon]

21 minutes ago, Blue Plastic said:

I believe that Greg checked that the key opened the door to Martin’s house a year after Joy told him that. By the time he called her, she had already moved on. But yes, she did leave.

Not sure how Janette and Vincent were supposed to “guard” Mallory while she set the prank tape to play.  They wouldn’t be able to audibly warn her and probably couldn’t convincingly turn any adults away. In fact, all the kids seemed to have the run of the school grounds, which was very much NOT allowed at my high school in the 1980s (in Texas).  If any of us had been lurking in a hallway when we were supposed to be elsewhere, we would get in trouble.

In the last episode, it showed Greg testing Martin’s door key and it said 1994. So it was not long after  Cindy told him about it.

[KaveDweller]

18 minutes ago, Blue Plastic said:

I believe that Greg checked that the key opened the door to Martin’s house a year after Joy told him that. By the time he called her, she had already moved on. But yes, she did leave.

He checked the key in 1994, right after Cindy left. We see him confront Jeanette about it with her 1994 hair, and then make her go to the police after she left her first day of school in 1994 to tell them about it. Jeanette heard him on the phone with Cindy when he called and said she was right, and she had her 1994 hair in that scene too.

Then in 1995, we see Angela ask him why he didn't tell her about the key when they first met and he said because it wasn't relevant. If he didn't check the key until 1995, that answer wouldn't have made sense. 

[128survivor]

10 hours ago, RachelKM said:

OMG you guys. This was the first time I recorded the show instead of watching the next day on Hulu.  I didn't realize that Freeform was still forced to air The 700 Club and hadn't seen the lead in explaining that it did not reflect the views of ABCFamily/Freeform in years.

It now says:

"What you are about to see is not Freeform.  We can't tell you what to watch."

and then

"But have you tried literally anything else?"

 I nearly fell off the couch. Well played Freeform.

Okay, the show.

I'm not sure I would call 1993 Mallory a bully either.  But she is pushy and it's not accurate to say Jeanette was a "I don't know"/"nothing" answer person.  Jeanette made it clear several times that she wasn't entirely comfortable with The List. Each time Malloy blaster her and pushed for them to finish it. Jeanette was bristling under that even at the beginning (though she ended up enamoured with breaking into Martin's house.) Jeanette didn't want to do the video and Mallory pushed her.  Vincent seems more the type to go alone to get along, but Jeanette objected and Mallory got snarky with her. Same with the pot. 

Likewise, Mallory was giving her shit about her Kate Wallis fixation.  I'm not really sure it was stalking so much as Jeanette saw the scrunchie as an opportunity to talk to Kate when she saw her next and kept it with her for the opportunity.  If she was keeping it in her jewelry I would think it was obsession.  Carrying around "in case she sees Kate" is a person hoping to have a reason to talk to Kate and imagining it will result in they becoming friends.  Is it delusional? Probably.  But it isn't stalking, at least not beyond awkward teen girl.

I don't disagree that Jeanette was looking to trade up.  But that doesn't mean that her irritation with Mallory wasn't legitimate or justified. She wasn't just bailing on her old crew.  She still wanted to be friends with Vincent.  

This episode was, in my opinion, Harley's better work of the series.  Her crying as she walked away in 1993 and the confrontation at the door through the snow globe seemed more natural to me.

And Mallory's mellowing out and being a better/more mature friend between 1993 and 1995 makes sense.  She probably was overcompensating with her "confidence" when being the sort of ringleader of Jeanette and Vincent and was just as insecure as Jeanette. Even her Kate Wallis hate seems like jealousy and resentment of the popular girl.  Which I think also fed into Mallory's harshness in coming at Jeanette over the scrunchie.  Yes, it was annoying and delusional. But it was even more grating to Mallory because of her own insecurities and envy of Kate. 

That confrontation with Jeanette, as painful as it was, eventually made her reflect on her behavior.  I wouldn't be surprised if Vince eventually, in a kinder way, explained that Jeanette wasn't totally off base (even if delivered too harshly).  Mallory is clearly still hurt and angry 2 years later (she kept the globe, so she cares), but she has matured.

Moving on:

Jesus, Joy.  You don't know where your daughter is and you're prioritizing keeping things quiet?  Fuck you. 

This is what I thought too. I do think something about the globe's music was likely the reason Jeanette went there.  But thinking about it, I can understand why Mallory didn't play the music.  She doesn't know why Jeanette wanted to have it back.  In retrospect, it really wouldn't have made much sense for Mallory to play it. It would have been for dramatic effect.  I actually appreciate that the show didn't do that.

I thought there was some dialogue that sounded like "'Til death do us part" from first a woman than a man and then music rising int the background.  So I think that part was a movie.  It had a golden age of film sound to both the dialogue and the music.

 

Dear Show,

You cannot wobbie Jamie into a acceptable. I'm glad he wanted to apologize. I'm glad he realizes how fucked up his actions were.  But he still punched Jeanette, drove drunk and injured his friend, and gaslit his kidnapping victim girlfriend. He's a jerk. 

What he went through was hard. But that he reacted with more destructive actions that either the kidnapping victim or the town pariah establishes that he not a good guy.  He's not a villain.  He's a screwed up kid.  But he is unbelievably self-involved. 

You've been pretty good at presenting complex characters without excusing them so far. So, I'm gonna trust you not to do the dumb thing and make either girl cool with him (much less in love with him) when this is over.

Sincerely, 

Rachel

Why is Freeform forced to show the 700 club ? Never watched it but that warning made me curious and it’s really creepy 🤣

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, 128survivor said:

Why is Freeform forced to show the 700 club ? Never watched it but that warning made me curious and it’s really creepy 🤣

I don't remember all of the details, but it has to do with the origins of the channel and its sale agreement.  Pat Robertson's group started it and named it The Family channel.  When the group sold it, the group had in the contract that the channel had to continue to air The 700 Club.

Okay, I found an article that goes over it.  I didn't realize it was in perpetuity.  I assumed that the name change was related to the end of such terms.  I was wrong....

I don't know why they don't just wind down the channel and create a new one.  It cannot have that much goodwill.  Hell, the changed the name and it survived.   But, for whatever business reason, ABC/Disney has determined that the channel is worth the annoyance. 

So they continue to air The 700 Club. But I guess nothing in the contract says they have to be gracious about it. 😆

Edited June 3, 2021 by RachelKM

[AllyB]

Something is driving me absolutely crazy about both of the Turner parents. If you knew your teenage daughter had been letting herself into the home of a man that you now know is an abuser who has targeted at least one teenage girl. Wouldn't one of your absolute biggest concerns be if she had been in any way abused or groomed? Especially as she underwent a radical personality change at the same time and is being accused of being in his home while he was abusing someone.

If my child was even a student in the school Martin Harris worked in, I'd be having some careful conversations to try and ensure nothing inappropriate had happened. If I found out that my kid was actually more connected to this person than I had ever realised I'd be highly, highly concerned that they had also been targeted. It's really, really weird to me that this has never entered the Turner parents' heads.

I'm not saying that Martin ever did abuse Jeanette in any way but it's downright negligent that neither Greg nor Cindy have ever even worried about that possibility and checked to see if, at least on that score, Jeanette is ok. IRL, when I was a teenager in the 90s the abuse that was committed and covered up in Catholic schools started to be revealed, my parents discussed this with me and my brothers to make sure we had been and continued to be safe. And that was just on the basis that they were shocked that abuse had happened in numerous schools and felt it was important to check that the places they had assumed were safe for us actually were.

[BingeyKohan]

38 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Wouldn't one of your absolute biggest concerns be if she had been in any way abused or groomed? Especially as she underwent a radical personality change at the same time and is being accused of being in his home while he was abusing someone.

ITA! That’s how I felt about Tanya the Thirst Trap Mom as well! It never occurred to her the creepy principal she felt up on the couch could have targeted her own daughter at school? I think a problem with how little we’ve seen of the immediate aftermath of Kate’s rescue was town reaction to Martin, but they could have indicated that better in Jeanette’s 94 TL. 
 

I also have to add, speaking of Tanya, that I just didn’t buy her daughter would sit at a school lunch table in front of friends and use ‘speaking of LOVERS...’ as an awkward segue into asking a guy out. Even if she did learn to be forward from her Mom.

[Spartan Girl]

10 hours ago, Anela said:

Yes, she’s described as the most hated girl in the US, so I can understand wanting to fight back against all of that.  

I understand it too, but suing a kidnap victim and using her emails that to make her out to be a liar and will no doubt result in victim blaming (or maybe even accuse her of making the whole kidnapping up)? It’s still wrong and will undoubtedly bite her in the ass.

[waving feather]

Greg seems to lament losing his job and blaming it on Kate's accusation of Jeanette and the rumors surrounding Jeanette but if you think about it, he did deserve to lose his job over the key issue. He did not realized that a key was missing from his care for the homes he's showing?? That's a big security concern and he should be disciplined in some ways. Just a random thought, lol.

[cardigirl]

21 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Mallory: I'm a closer.

I think Mallory will have the final puzzle piece that vindicates Jeanette and pacifies Kate. 

I think Mallory may be evil. As in setting them both up in a revenge twist of some kind. 

On 6/2/2021 at 12:20 AM, ZeeEnnui said:

As good as this show is, I just can't like Jeanette. 

Amen. In any of her iterations. Or all of them. She bugs me. I have no sympathy for her.  Only Vince.  I feel for Vince. He's a nice guy. 

[Cranberry]

9 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

You joke, but that is what I'm expecting other than the name change.  Barring this being originally conceived as a limited 10 episode series or something like American Horror Story where the cast plays out different stories each season or a more typical anthology where every season is a different story and different cast, there is no way they are going to wrap this up in ten episodes.

Thankfully, the showrunner has said: 

"We will give you all the answers to all of our clues. It was very important for us to have a season one that was totally satisfying. We didn't want to let the audience down. We really wanted to deliver twists and turns, as well as the answers to the very end. And I think you’ll be very satisfied."

[BingeyKohan]

I actually kind of liked Jeanette this episode. I sort of think she'll get a fast redemption arc in the final episode where she makes a courtroom speech rescinding the lawsuit -- so ultimately her lawyer is the only one who gets screwed (though presumably she still gets paid for her time but not the cut of the Wallis settlement she might have gotten). 

I also liked Mallory's look during the video prank thing in 93.

If I could somehow gift my high school self (gay and closeted in the south in the early 90s) a Vince that would have been such a game-changer. he's the best. We would have moved to Austin, gotten really into the South x Southwest scene, made some money at Dell, then settled out on some land in Marfa when it was still off the radar and we could be the town's middle aged eccentrics. This concludes my fan fiction.

[Stiggs]

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I think Mallory may be evil. As in setting them both up in a revenge twist of some kind. 

Amen. In any of her iterations. Or all of them. She bugs me. I have no sympathy for her.  Only Vince.  I feel for Vince. He's a nice guy. 

Mallory can be tolerable and her scenes with Kate are nice, but she is just off. She demanded a lot from her 2 friends, and then turns into the go-to awesome friend of a girl she hated and was jealous of? Mallory meeting Kate in the therapist’s waiting room struck me as weird - was Mallory done with her appointment and just hanging out? I just feel like there’s more there there, but who knows? Could be thinking this because the actor playing Mallory is just not very good. Jeannette and Kate are doing all of the lifting in their scenes with Mallory. 
 

Kate’s mom really is just the absolute worst. 

[peachmangosteen]

On 6/1/2021 at 11:12 PM, gesundheit said:

What was the domestic violence in this episode? Or do they always have that content warning at the beginning and I just hadn't noticed?

Starting with the episode where Kate is shown in the basement with Martin drugging her, they have shown the RAINN ad at the conclusion of the ep. And then in the episode with Jamie punching Jeanette (I think) and this one they've show the domestic violence ad at the end, presumably because of the punching happening/being discussed.

On 6/2/2021 at 7:48 AM, Spartan Girl said:

And I don’t buy his eleventh hour guilt about Jeanette, given how fast he was to dump her for Kate. He only wanted to talk to her after Kate dumped his ass. 

Jamie talked to Jeanette prior to Kate dumping him. They actually kissed and Kate saw them, which led to her breaking up with him.

16 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I didn't see Jamie's "interest" as sincere flirtation but more being friendly to the nerdy girl who surprised him by ending up in mall jail.  I'm not sure Jamie is so status focused, at least not enough that it is a personality trait.  All teens have a little of it. 

This. I think it seems like Jamie thought Jeanette was kind of interesting and cute even back when she was 'ugly,' which I don't find incredibly hard to believe. I actually think they've done a good job of showing that Jamie actually really liked Jeanette so that this makes sense, but that also makes it even harder to understand why he punched her. Being upset and mad at her, sure, but them having him punch her was really OTT and unforgivable and I don't think TPTB really get that tbh.

14 hours ago, starri said:

Dear Show:  As someone who was also a gay 17-year-old in 1995, I am well aware that the options for "happy endings" for an pair of interracial gay teens is really limited, but PLEASE, give us one.

THIS! But I'm afraid there will be nothing more with Ben and Vince this season honestly. Hopefully they'll get a season 2 and explore them more then.

13 hours ago, mamadrama said:

New theory:

Mallory saw Kate in the window but didn't tell anyone because, at the time, she wasn't sure what she was looking at. Once Kate was rescued Mallory realized what she'd seen and, and how Kate could've been saved earlier if she'd spoken up, and it tore her up. That's why she's in therapy and why she is being so nice to Kate- penance. 

I've had this in my mind as a possibility since the episode where Mallory is revealed to be in therapy and meets Kate. I am leaning against it now but I do think it's still possible, especially with the writers talking about twists and turns. 

12 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Or maybe they are going to surprise with a Season One Part II called Cruel Winter (kidding).

My sister was just saying that they should do a season 2 and call it Cruel Winter lol.

5 hours ago, AllyB said:

Something is driving me absolutely crazy about both of the Turner parents. If you knew your teenage daughter had been letting herself into the home of a man that you now know is an abuser who has targeted at least one teenage girl. Wouldn't one of your absolute biggest concerns be if she had been in any way abused or groomed? Especially as she underwent a radical personality change at the same time and is being accused of being in his home while he was abusing someone.

I actually didn't think of this myself but it really is a great point. We don't see anything with any of the other parent and kid combos so maybe other parents did indeed do this but yea it doesn't seem like Greg or Cindy even thought about it. Weird oversight.

To me, Jeanette came off scary and unhinged again in some of this ep, like she did when she was gleefully mimicking the girl on the TV earlier. The way she reacted to Joy telling Martin that Kate was missing/had run away was fucking bizarre imo. She was so gleeful. And then the way she relayed it to Jamie was even creepier. I still don't think she actually saw Kate but the girl ain't right lol!

I don't get what's going on with the voicemail and snow globe at all. I figured the snow globe must have played the music that was heard on the recording or something and that Mallory was going to turn the snow globe on and we'd make the connection but then that didn't happen so I don't know.

[ZootSuitWyatt]

36 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Starting with the episode where Kate is shown in the basement with Martin drugging her, they have shown the RAINN ad at the conclusion of the ep. And then in the episode with Jamie punching Jeanette (I think) and this one they've show the domestic violence ad at the end, presumably because of the punching happening/being discussed.

 

I think they also showed the punch in the "previously on," so that may have been another contributing factor to the domestic violence warning at the beginning.

[peachmangosteen]

1 minute ago, ZootSuitWyatt said:

I think they also showed the punch in the "previously on," so that may have been another contributing factor to the domestic violence warning at the beginning.

Ah, there ya go. I get the ads at the end though, not the beginning. Weird lol.

[BingeyKohan]

I totally think the warning is because of the previously-on punch which is so ironic to me because they don't have to keep showing the punch! We remember it! "Warning: This recap of what happened on an earlier episode that we don't HAVE to show you might trigger you but it's more important to be triggered and up to date than it is to be untriggered and confused about a plot point."

 

 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

To me, Jeanette came off scary and unhinged again in some of this ep, like she did when she was gleefully mimicking the girl on the TV earlier. The way she reacted to Joy telling Martin that Kate was missing/had run away was fucking bizarre imo. She was so gleeful. And then the way she relayed it to Jamie was even creepier. I still don't think she actually saw Kate but the girl ain't right lol!

I don't think she really thought something bad had happened at this point.  I mean, yeah, she was weird and a little creepy when she told Jamie. But honestly, at that age, I would have assumed Kate was at a friend's house and it was nothing more than a bit of drama. And as far as Jeanette knew, both adults decided that was most likely too. 

[waving feather]

Besides Mallory being evil as a twist, I was also thinking how about Ashley being Anabelle? Not that I want her to be but she would have a motive. How was Berenice IV's relationship when Cleopatra? Still interesting to me that she chose that nickname and talked about it to Jeanette's brother. Is there a bigger significance? 

I'm just doing wild guesses at this point. Lol.

[tennisgurl]

5 hours ago, RachelKM said:

But honestly, at that age, I would have assumed Kate was at a friend's house and it was nothing more than a bit of drama. And as far as Jeanette knew, both adults decided that was most likely too. 

I suspect that even Kate thought that she was just crashing at Martin's house while she was upset at her parents for awhile before going home, it probably wasn't until later that he got her in the basement and locked the door and she realized that she was in trouble. Wasn't she wearing a dress at some point in her flashbacks? They were probably just hanging out "playing house" for a little bit as Kate avoided her family and Jamie at first, with Kate having no clue what Martin is planning. And Martin is clearly planning on keeping Kate, destroying the evidence that Kate was ever there right away and getting Joy not to call the cops. 

[Anela]

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Starting with the episode where Kate is shown in the basement with Martin drugging her, they have shown the RAINN ad at the conclusion of the ep. And then in the episode with Jamie punching Jeanette (I think) and this one they've show the domestic violence ad at the end, presumably because of the punching happening/being discussed.

Jamie talked to Jeanette prior to Kate dumping him. They actually kissed and Kate saw them, which led to her breaking up with him.

This. I think it seems like Jamie thought Jeanette was kind of interesting and cute even back when she was 'ugly,' which I don't find incredibly hard to believe. I actually think they've done a good job of showing that Jamie actually really liked Jeanette so that this makes sense, but that also makes it even harder to understand why he punched her. Being upset and mad at her, sure, but them having him punch her was really OTT and unforgivable and I don't think TPTB really get that tbh.

THIS! But I'm afraid there will be nothing more with Ben and Vince this season honestly. Hopefully they'll get a season 2 and explore them more then.

I've had this in my mind as a possibility since the episode where Mallory is revealed to be in therapy and meets Kate. I am leaning against it now but I do think it's still possible, especially with the writers talking about twists and turns. 

My sister was just saying that they should do a season 2 and call it Cruel Winter lol.

I actually didn't think of this myself but it really is a great point. We don't see anything with any of the other parent and kid combos so maybe other parents did indeed do this but yea it doesn't seem like Greg or Cindy even thought about it. Weird oversight.

To me, Jeanette came off scary and unhinged again in some of this ep, like she did when she was gleefully mimicking the girl on the TV earlier. The way she reacted to Joy telling Martin that Kate was missing/had run away was fucking bizarre imo. She was so gleeful. And then the way she relayed it to Jamie was even creepier. I still don't think she actually saw Kate but the girl ain't right lol!

I don't get what's going on with the voicemail and snow globe at all. I figured the snow globe must have played the music that was heard on the recording or something and that Mallory was going to turn the snow globe on and we'd make the connection but then that didn't happen so I don't know.

I think it’s more that she was socially awkward, and knew something important, but as someone else said, it was assumed she would show up again, after cooling off at a friend’s house.  
 

seeing Martin manipulate these people is horrible, and seeing Kate’s mum fall for it, too, because of her concerns about how things looked.  

[Anela]

I wish they would show us the last two episodes on the same night.  

[Cinnabon]

As a teacher/principal, Martin was also legally a mandated reporter, and by law was obligated to report Kate’s mom hitting her. But we know he didn’t.

[Pixel]

I don’t see how the snow globe sound on the voicemail  is relevant unless it ties Jeannette to Martin’s house. Maybe she was hiding and butt dialed Jamie. She was probably in the closet, holding the snow globe, when it accidentally went off or something. 

[RachelKM]

15 hours ago, Pixel said:

I don’t see how the snow globe sound on the voicemail  is relevant unless it ties Jeannette to Martin’s house. Maybe she was hiding and butt dialed Jamie. She was probably in the closet, holding the snow globe, when it accidentally went off or something. 

I think it does have something to do with Jeanette being in Martin's house and the timing of such, i.e. December (when Kate said she thought she saw Jeanette).  However, butt dialing wasn't a thing in 1993.  Cell phones didn't really have much private market penetration until around 97-98 and even then it was rare for teens to have them. And the phones available then weren't as susceptible to inadvertent dialing.

Of course, it doesn't really make any more sense that Kate, if she somehow got to the phone or secreted a cordless handset and managed to dial, would call Jamie of all people.  Why not her parents or the police? That better have a solid explanation. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by RachelKM

[Anela]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I think it does have something to do with Jeanette being in Martin's house and the timing of such, i.e. December (when Kate said she thought she saw Jeanette).  However, butt dialing wasn't a thing in 1993.  Cell phones didn't really have much private market penetration until around 97-98 and even then it was rare for teens to have them. And the phones available then weren't as susceptible to inadvertent dialing.

Of course, it doesn't really make any more sense that Kate, if she somehow got to the phone or secreted a cordless handset and managed to dial, would call Jamie of all people.  Why not her parents or the police? That is better have a solid explanation. 

Her mother was the reason that she was gone, initially, and her dad didn't stand up for her. Maybe she thought that Jamie would be nice to her. Although Martin had been filling her head with talk about them all moving on without her. 

[mamadrama]

It would be interesting if, with all this animosity, it was Mallory who actually saw Kate in Martin's house (through the window) and not Jeanette. 

[mamadrama]

11 hours ago, Pixel said:

I don’t see how the snow globe sound on the voicemail  is relevant unless it ties Jeannette to Martin’s house. Maybe she was hiding and butt dialed Jamie. She was probably in the closet, holding the snow globe, when it accidentally went off or something. 

To butt dial Jamie's number would have to be pre-programmed into Martin's phone. However, I do agree with the gist of your post. Martin has a cordless phone, we've seen it. Kate could've sneaked it into a closet or someplace and dialed Jamie's number but was then unable to speak because Martin walked back into the room. I do think the snow globe went off by accident. 

[Pixel]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

To butt dial Jamie's number would have to be pre-programmed into Martin's phone. However, I do agree with the gist of your post. Martin has a cordless phone, we've seen it. Kate could've sneaked it into a closet or someplace and dialed Jamie's number but was then unable to speak because Martin walked back into the room. I do think the snow globe went off by accident. 

Ah, I didn't really think about that cellphones weren't enough of a thing at this point for Jeannette to have butt-dialed. I was thinking in terms of things that could happen today. Damn you, technological advancements!

[sashabear21]

Having been in high school in a small Texas town in the mid-90's, there is no way in hell girls would be allowed to wear tank tops and spaghetti strap tops to school without a sweater or shirt covering them up. That would be a one-way ticket to getting the honor of wearing a filthy sweatshirt from the PE closet for the rest of the day in addition to getting a good old fashioned slut shaming from the gossipy bitches in the front office.  Kate's mom walking around like she's just lost her keys rather than her daughter seems pretty consistent with her character, it's all about appearances with her. Now that her daughter is growing up and doesn't want to be her bestest buddy anymore, then she's just a nuisance. She'd honestly probably rather Kate stayed gone, then she could continue to play the grieving mother and not have to deal with her horribly traumatized daughter. It was nice seeing '95 Jeanette  showing some backbone with Jamie, I know that's because she's been hardened by life, but I hate Jamie so her standing up to him was good.  I want resolution to the story, but more than that I want Vince and Ben to have happiness in the end. Mallory thinks she's super edgy now, but she's in for a rude awakening in a few years when Hot Topic opens in every mall in America and tons of people are dressing exactly like her.  

[Cinnabon]

Eh, Mallory will be in college by the time Hot Topic opens (and they weren’t widespread for some time) and completely over that look. Trend setters will have moved on by the time the small town followers discover anything.

[Kiss my mutt]

I’m really enjoying this with the exception of the Mallory actor. She overacts entirely too much and it takes me out of the scene. 
I love Chiara Aurelia. If you get a chance, I’d really recommend “Tell Me Your Secrets”. She’s even better in that. 

[moonshine71]

On 6/2/2021 at 10:04 PM, BingeyKohan said:

Surely one of the final two episodes is not going to be set on 3 different Christmas Eves, right? Because by 1995 Christmas Eve surely the drama of the legal case would have already played out. But now Christmas Eve of 1993 seems so important they will have to show something from it, which would mean ... flashback within a flashback. Or maybe they are going to surprise with a Season One Part II called Cruel Winter (kidding).

I feel like your overestimating the speed of the court system and how quickly the wheels of justice turn.

[Black Knight]

8 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

I feel like your overestimating the speed of the court system and how quickly the wheels of justice turn.

Agreed. It's typical to have to wait months or even a year or more for one's trial date. What we're seeing right now are depositions, which Jeannette's and Kate's lawyers can do on their own time (so to speak) while they wait for the trial date to arrive, since judges and juries are not needed for those.

I was totally wrong about when Greg checked into whether it was Martin's key. Good lord, that man is even more in denial than I'd thought. He catches Jeanette out in one lie and then just blithely accepts the new explanation. I can see why Cindy was still "I need some space"; nothing fundamental really changed with Greg.

The whole time Greg and Angela were talking I was thinking about how Angela could do so much better than this pathetic man, but thinking about what we saw of him at her bar, I came to the conclusion the sad-sack thing is actually an attraction for her. Maybe it activates her fix-it urge or it makes her feel better about herself in comparison. If it's the former, you can't fix someone; if it's the latter, learn to love yourself, girl.

I certainly was not expecting Jeanette's reaction to the recorded phone call to be to try to retrieve a snow globe. No clue what that's about. Also, I don't understand 1995 Jeanette/Mallory at all. Jeanette was so rude to Mallory while asking for the snow globe, but she has to know Mallory could blow up her case, right? Just like Jeanette's lawyer can use Kate lying about how she initially entered Martin Harris's house to impeach her general credibility, Kate's lawyer can use Jeanette lying about stuff to impeach her general credibility, and Mallory can certainly testify to that. It would seem to behoove Jeanette to be more civil to Mallory, at the very least.

I had trouble believing 1993 Mallory would be bothered by getting a detention. It should've been that Mr. Harris said he'd call her mother in for a conference - that, I can believe Mallory being upset about, because we've seen her upset about being in trouble with her mother before.

1993 Jeanette telling Jamie that she wanted to let him know about Kate's disappearance "because they always suspect the boyfriend" (when the conversation she'd overheard was centered on Kate supposedly running away from home) - yikes. It's in keeping with how when 1994 Jeanette heard that Kate had been found, she jumped to conclusions and asked about "the body." When I saw that episode, I thought it was maybe an overdone attempt on her part to pretend she didn't have any real knowledge about the situation, but given what she said to Jamie in 1993, now I'm thinking maybe she's just a bit of a true crime nut and her mind tends to go in the direction of murders and bodies.

[Guest]

On 6/3/2021 at 10:48 AM, peachmangosteen said:

To me, Jeanette came off scary and unhinged again in some of this ep, like she did when she was gleefully mimicking the girl on the TV earlier. The way she reacted to Joy telling Martin that Kate was missing/had run away was fucking bizarre imo. She was so gleeful. And then the way she relayed it to Jamie was even creepier. I still don't think she actually saw Kate but the girl ain't right lol!

I agree with you here.

I don't know what that smile after Kate's mom rebuffed her offer of support was about, but really there is nothing about it that can be good.

And her side of the confrontation with Mallory was really odd.  It reminded me a lot of her practicing emotions by watching TV.  It had a pretty long pause like a robot was going through scenarios to get to an end result of ditching her friends in a justifiable way.  It didn't seem genuine but more a means to an end.

The problem I'm having is that I don't really buy that Jeanette has hatched some kind of fully formed plan to become popular and insinuate herself into Kate's life.

It would be super helpful if they showed Jeanette watching Single White Female right about now to show where she got this idea from.  Which I guess is plausible given the timeline.

[Black Knight]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

The problem I'm having is that I don't really buy that Jeanette has hatched some kind of fully formed plan to become popular and insinuate herself into Kate's life.

I don't get the sense we're supposed to think that she has. I think she's just reacting to circumstances and opportunities as they come up. The only thing that's happened with her appearance so far is the braces and that's an established, lengthy process - it's not like she could decide when to have them taken off. The "I'll become Kate's friend by returning her scrunchy!" notion is silly. She had no idea that Kate had gone missing until she overheard that conversation between Kate's mom and Mr. Harris, so her attempts to cozy up to Kate's mother and Jamie right afterwards were spur-of-the-moment. As for ditching Mallory, she still stayed friends with Vince, who isn't part of Kate's circle either and thus not useful in that way - in other words, she dropped Mallory as much because she was tired of Mallory's pushiness as because she wants new friends who are popular.

Clearly she does use Kate's absence to step in with her friends and her boyfriend, but that's not something she could have planned before Kate disappeared.

[peachmangosteen]

16 hours ago, Black Knight said:

I had trouble believing 1993 Mallory would be bothered by getting a detention. It should've been that Mr. Harris said he'd call her mother in for a conference - that, I can believe Mallory being upset about, because we've seen her upset about being in trouble with her mother before.

Maybe what bothered her about it was her mom finding out she got detention.

[bara007]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:49 AM, Blue Plastic said:

Not sure how Janette and Vincent were supposed to “guard” Mallory while she set the prank tape to play.  They wouldn’t be able to audibly warn her and probably couldn’t convincingly turn any adults away

Been thinking the same thing exactly.

The only thing would happen that Jeannette would get also in trouble.

Only it would look maybe even worse, that "she was watching by the door"... and would take out the chance for Mallory to try to make sound just innocent/coincidence, which she did.

[bara007]

17 hours ago, Black Knight said:

21 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

The problem I'm having is that I don't really buy that Jeanette has hatched some kind of fully formed plan to become popular and insinuate herself into Kate's life.

I don't get the sense we're supposed to think that she has. I think she's just reacting to circumstances and opportunities as they come up.

The only big plan she could have come up with as I see it is : " I will got to the hairdresser, try something new"

 I think that happens to everybody, once in a while !

 

And maybe her mother recommended her to try contacts...

Otherwise she is a very pretty girl.

 

I think Jamie can see it even with the "1st" Jeanette..

[Black Knight]

6 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Maybe what bothered her about it was her mom finding out she got detention.

It wasn't clear to me whether her mom would be notified. Mallory seems able to pretty much run around as she pleases, so if her mom even thought to ask something like why didn't she come straight home after school ended, Mallory could just make something up: She needed to work on a project at school, she went to Vince's to hang out, whatever.

53 minutes ago, bara007 said:

The only big plan she could have come up with as I see it is : " I will got to the hairdresser, try something new"

 I think that happens to everybody, once in a while !

And maybe her mother recommended her to try contacts...

Yeah, between her mother and what is typical behavior for teenagers, I think she would have made other changes in her appearance even if there were no Kate Wallis. People try different things, and they also look at other people to see what they are wearing and how they style themselves.

[Cinnabon]

I thought she looked better in 1993 with the wavy hair. 

[Black Knight]

I do too actually, but the super straight hair is periodically the trendy look and a lot of teenagers want to look just like the crowd instead of having an unique look. The latter draws more attention, but of what people of that mindset view as the wrong kind of attention, being perceived as not fitting in.

If not for all the notoriety, Jeanette would probably realize in adulthood (encouraged by her hair stylist) that she'd be so much better off with the wavy hair and went back to that. But after her experiences with the media as a teen, I can see her continuing with something low-key, even if she is exonerated.

[LuvMyShows]

On 6/2/2021 at 12:16 PM, ZeeEnnui said:

Honestly, I think that Mallory would be a less polarizing character to a lot of us on the boards if she were played by a better actress. Thanks, nepotism (this is why you're not on the holiday card list). No offense to Harley Quinn Smith, but her acting is so try-hard. With a better actress we might see some layers with that performance that would make her more sympathetic but also likable (even when she's being annoying). 

So I had never heard of Harley Quinn Smith or seen her in anything else, and back in the first episode thread where some of you guys were talking about how bad an actress she was, I assumed you were talking about the Tennille character, since the actress that plays her is truly dreadful in the role.  I haven't actually had a problem with the acting for Mallory.

On 6/3/2021 at 2:05 PM, waving feather said:

Besides Mallory being evil as a twist, I was also thinking how about Ashley being Anabelle? Not that I want her to be but she would have a motive. How was Berenice IV's relationship when Cleopatra? Still interesting to me that she chose that nickname and talked about it to Jeanette's brother. Is there a bigger significance? 

When Ashley was talking to Kate, or when Berenice was chatting with Traumamama (or whatever Kate's screen name was), I kept waiting for Ashley/Berenice to reveal something that she couldn't have known on her own...for example, that Ashley would be empathizing with Kate and mistakenly mention something that only Berenice has been told, or Berenice would mention something that had happened in the Ashley/Kate household but that Berenice hadn't actually been told about. 

On 6/5/2021 at 7:10 PM, Black Knight said:

I was totally wrong about when Greg checked into whether it was Martin's key. Good lord, that man is even more in denial than I'd thought. He catches Jeanette out in one lie and then just blithely accepts the new explanation. I can see why Cindy was still "I need some space"; nothing fundamental really changed with Greg.

And why didn't Greg or Cindy wonder why Jeanette would have taped a key to the bottom of her box if it was only from something she had used once two years earlier.

[LuvMyShows]

 

On 6/2/2021 at 3:28 PM, mamadrama said:

Mallory (videotape), Jamie (interaction with Martin the night Kate disappeared), and Jeanette (she probably saw something in his house but didn't understand what she was seeing) ALL had pieces of the puzzle regarding Kate's disappearance but, unfortunately, they didn't know what they had. 

So for the whole show, it's been made out to be "who is lying"?  Why have none of these people considered the possibility that no one is "lying", and that each of the girls simply believe their version of reality to be true?

On 6/2/2021 at 7:46 PM, bara007 said:

In my view in Civil law this is a way of saying: "not guilty". There is no other way to get it out there, officially.

Every lawyer will recommend this position in a (difficult) situation like this, it is not question of "bad character" or "good character". This is a right the state has given you.

To protect your name.

And as to another comment on this site - a lot of money is going to be involved, that is in the end. Kate is going to pay huge damages to Jeanette for smearing her name by the decision of the court.

The elegant thing for Jeanette to do of course in that case is to afterwards waive the damages.

That is why Kate`s parents are so nervous.

OK, so I tried to look up a bit of the legal aspect, and realized that to the best of my recollection, we've all been talking about 'libel' as what Jeanette is suing Kate for, but libel is only when it's written; it's 'slander' when it's spoken.  And as someone mentioned in an earlier thread, it has to be proven that the statement was knowingly false (this would be true for libel or slander, since they both fall under the heading of defamation).  That would be almost impossible to prove, unless there is some massive twist and we learn that Kate has known all along that Jeanette didn't see her.  Otherwise, even if the statement is not true about Jeanette, it would be irrelevant to the slander suit, since Kate would have believed it at the time she said it.

[Black Knight]

17 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

So I had never heard of Harley Quinn Smith or seen her in anything else, and back in the first episode thread where some of you guys were talking about how bad an actress she was, I assumed you were talking about the Tennille character, since the actress that plays her is truly dreadful in the role.  I haven't actually had a problem with the acting for Mallory.

Same here.

Quote

And why didn't Greg or Cindy wonder why Jeanette would have taped a key to the bottom of her box if it was only from something she had used once two years earlier.

I don't think Cindy buys Jeanette's explanation for a minute. Greg is in total denial.

12 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

That would be almost impossible to prove, unless there is some massive twist and we learn that Kate has known all along that Jeanette didn't see her.  Otherwise, even if the statement is not true about Jeanette, it would be irrelevant to the slander suit, since Kate would have believed it at the time she said it.

Jeanette's case is that Kate is deliberately lying, not that Kate has a mistaken belief. I may be fooled by Jeanette, but to me she did seem genuinely surprised and confused by the claim that she saw Kate at the house, like she had no idea how that could be possible. Ergo, she thinks Kate has to be lying about it. We've seen that her mind tends to assume the worst about a person or situation, and she thinks Kate has a good motive to lie: jealousy over Jamie. I find that motive implausible, because Kate was not really into Jamie even before she was kidnapped, but Jeanette wouldn't see that, since she herself was head-over-heels for Jamie. And the fact that Kate didn't tell the police about Jeanette until after she saw Jamie and Jeanette making out in the park doesn't look good. I think Jeanette knows about Kate seeing her and Jamie in the park and her lawyer plans to use that timeline as support that Kate is lying. I don't think Kate is lying, but I do need an explanation for that. It can't be that she wasn't ready to talk about it, because first, she talked to Jamie about it immediately, and second, of everything that happened to her at Martin's house, a girl she barely knows and has no bond with seeing her there has to be the easiest part to think and talk about. And Jeanette seeing her at Martin's house and not saying anything is way worse than her dating and sneaking around with Kate's boyfriend, so Kate had sufficient anger towards Jeanette already - the idea that she was basically prepared to let it go until she saw Jeanette and Jamie kissing is as implausible as the idea Kate's willing to destroy Jeanette's life with lies because of Jamie.

[Irlandesa]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:59 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Greg is also a tool, going with Angela before he and Cindy were even separated. And Angela still buys it even after talking with Cindy. Ugh.
 

 

On 6/1/2021 at 10:23 PM, KaveDweller said:

Greg did jump into a relationship with Angela, but it seems he is right that Cindy left him. She said she was going to her sisters because she needed space. Greg then called her to tell her she was right about the key and to ask  her to come home, she says no. He also made Jeanette tell the police the about being in Martin's house. We don't know what happened next, but it feels a little like a Friends "We were on a break" situation.

Greg met Angela before there were obvious issues in his marriage but in the first episode, there was a June 1995 bar scene between Angela and Greg where Angela said they had been together for four months. That places the start of their relationship in Feb. of 1995.  Cindy left the house in this episode, which took place at the end of Aug in 1994.

That means they hadn't been living together for at least five months.  The difference in their opinions about who gave up on who isn't red flaggy to me and I don't think Angela is "buying" anything. In Greg's mind, Cindy ended it when she left the house and didn't return to deal with their daughter as a couple.  In Cindy's mind, just because she didn't return then didn't mean she didn't plan on returning eventually. Angela's worried that, if she weren't with Greg, there'd be a chance for reconciliation.  It's all speculation about what might have been if things weren't what they are.  Maybe Cindy would have come home if Greg didn't shut down.  Maybe not.  Maybe Greg would have been open to it if he weren't already with Angela.  Maybe not.

On 6/6/2021 at 8:24 PM, LuvMyShows said:

I haven't actually had a problem with the acting for Mallory.

Me neither.  She's playing a specific kind of teen that feels familiar to me.  I do think 1994 and 95 Mallory is more boundary respecting than 1993 Mallory.  I don't think Jeanette was wrong to want space but I do think she's a good current friend to Kate.  Is that change because of a guilty conscience or is that change because of therapy? I don't know the answer to that.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Irlandesa