S04.E03: The Crossing

[tvgoddess]

1 hour ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Killing Alma was a mistake IMO.  She was part of Mayday.  She had a greater understanding of Gilead and how it works.  She didn't blindly follow June and they were clearly leader 1 and leader 2 of the group.  And quite frankly, given how much she knew over the course of the seasons, there was a lot more they could do with her.  I'm also not a fan of Janine and am annoyed that she and June made it.  

THIS. She had a lot more story to be told that makes her background seem unfinished. And while her death makes sense from a broader show perspective dealing with the realities of war/resistance, it still just seems kind of cheap. As much as I love Bradley Whitford, I would have much rather Lawrence died than Alma. I was settled with losing everyone else except her.

[Brn2bwild]

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I think someone like June would have tried to kill herself the moment they murdered the Marthas or at least when she understood they were going to use Hannah against her. Ater keeping her mouth shut through two rounds of torture (which proves how insanely determined she is to protect the handmaids)  someone in her position and state of mind would have seen suicide as the perfect solution: it puts an end to the pain and she can protect the handmaids, the Marthas on the roof and Hannah: June has been ready to die for a while now. Then you can have the guards stopping her and threatening Hannah for real, and June caves in, so you have the same ending, but to me, it's more consistent.

I'm surprised they didn't make her torture public, to make an example of her.

[jade.black]

20 hours ago, aghst said:

Moss is the star of the show.

Hulu probably believes Moss brings the show and the network exposure and ratings.  Maybe positive reviews at least in the early seasons.

I mean, yeah cool, I get it. But that doesn't stop it from being boring. Knowing that she's a producer and major player behind the scenes only make it seem like she's really fucking impressed with herself to continually put June front and center even when it's unrealistic to the storyline. You think Sean Bean didn't pull people in for the first season of GoT? Or RDJ didn't get people hooked on the Marvel movies? It's possible to cut loose a main character when it works in the overall favor of the show. I'm sure Moss can continue to produce and direct without also sticking herself in front of the camera, but I get the impression she's obsessed with her own brilliance (although honestly some of her acting choices baffle me) and it won't happen no matter how much titanium plot armor she needs to build around her character to keep her around. It's just become unrealistic, and I don't need to be force-fed side stories about how every other character (EVERY SINGLE ONE - Nick, Lawrence, Moira, Emily, Luke, Mrs Keyes, the other handmaids, it never ends) is just in awe of her heroics. 

[ReganX]

22 hours ago, Zonk said:

We all know that Lydia is pure evil, but I don't buy for a second that she was on board with hurting a child. Even threatening one would be a stretch for her. She doesn't believe in Gillead's leadership. She believes in the cause. She wants to produce and protect children.

Are those handmaids stupid? They clearly knew that June must have been captured and would break eventually. Why didn't they move to another location? Even the woods are better than somewhere where you'll most certainly be found.

At the end: What kind of stupid was that?! First they let those handmaids alone with an old, frail aunt. Second, the lock of that van used for prison transport can be pulled from the inside. Third the prisoners don't just whack aunt lydia over the head with that metal rod "because they can beat the train, dummy" when a whack would have been way faster than all that hesitating. Guess Lydia's plot armor is even thicker than Junes... Finally, they outran the train, well not all of them, because June's hesitation in just hitting Lydia over the head cost them valuable seconds and Lydia was able to call for the guardian who shot two of them, but what does that actually help them? I know trains in america can be long, but they are on foot and the guardian has a van. No way they are getting away. (although of course they will because the writers said so

If not for the two Handmaids being shot, I would half-expect a reveal that the van wasn't actually headed to a Magdalene colony but that they were being taken across the border.

Who thought it was a good idea to have one driver and one late middle-age, recently tortured woman to guard six prisoners?

June could have knocked Aunt Lydia out, or tasered her to keep her from crying out for help. It might have bought them enough time for more of them to get away. I was also expecting them to try to jump on the train, with the intention of getting off somewhere along the line, not to just run past it. At least then, it would take time to track them down because nobody could know at what point they got off the train. As it is, the driver has a van. Once the train has passed, he's going to drive after them.

I agree that it was stupid for the Handmaids to stay in one place as long as they did, knowing that June had been captured.

As for Aunt Lydia, my read on her is that she sees the suffering of the Handmaids as a necessary sacrifice in order to win favour with God so he'll send babies. She believes the propaganda about a return to traditional values and a godly way of living. She sees herself as playing a part in saving the future of humanity. However, she has learned that she wields no real authority in her own right, and that to the eyes of the Commanders, she is disposable. That may have begun to undermine her faith in Gilead.

Another thing that could help to further erode Aunt Lydia's faith in what she does is if Canada, the remaining United States, and other countries are able to combat the infertility issue.

As things are, it appears from Aunt Lydia's perspective that the methods used in Gilead are working. Remember the ambassador who said that, in her home city, there hadn't been a child born in six years? Compare that to Aunt Lydia's district, where babies are not only being born to Handmaids but also to Econocouples. The number of births may be very low, but if other countries have no births, Aunt Lydia can reason that Gilead must be doing something right. If, however, the birth rates recover in countries that don't abide by Gilead's ways, she has to question that belief.

[aghst]

Wonder if the actress playing Alma wasn't going to be available to have a bigger role?

They didn't give her a backstory did they?

[tvgoddess]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Wonder if the actress playing Alma wasn't going to be available to have a bigger role?

They didn't give her a backstory did they?

From the interview that I saw, it didn't sound like she wasn't going to be available. She's on another show now (would have to go back and check to see what it is), but she does miss her castmates. And no, no backstory. 

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, tvgoddess said:

From the interview that I saw, it didn't sound like she wasn't going to be available. She's on another show now (would have to go back and check to see what it is), but she does miss her castmates. And no, no backstory. 

The only glimpse of a backstory was last season when June (through Lawrence's wife) found information on some of the handmaids' children and we learned that Alma's son was still a baby when he was taken away from her. I was hoping we'd get more backstory after that, like we did for Emily after she told June about her wife and son.

[tvgoddess]

29 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The only glimpse of a backstory was last season when June (through Lawrence's wife) found information on some of the handmaids' children and we learned that Alma's son was still a baby when he was taken away from her. I was hoping we'd get more backstory after that, like we did for Emily after she told June about her wife and son.

Spoiler

Bruce Miller does give some hope:

This first batch of episodes do end quite fraught … with several Handmaids meeting tragic fates.

"All of those people are lovely and terrific actors, and hopefully will continue with flashbacks to be part of the family. Nobody is gone in Handmaid’s."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/handmaids-tale-season-4-premiere

Tagged this as a spoiler just in case.

Edited May 2, 2021 by tvgoddess

[Zonk]

On 5/1/2021 at 12:16 AM, Umbelina said:

He was just ONE instance when the show made it perfectly clear it was often the men who were infertile.  The doctor was the most explicit, spelling it out "they are all shooting blanks" or whatever he said.  Serena made it even more clear by suggesting Nick impregnate June, and also in subsequent things she said in other episodes.  

None of that is just from the book, it's from the show.

Do I know more from the books?  Yes, but I didn't mention any of that in my post.  Frankly, not much more either, the show has made it perfectly clear.

Consider the source. It was a guy who wanted to get into Junes pants and who clearly wasn't above lying to do so.

We have never been shown or told from a reliable source on the show that the men at large are the problem (Fred shooting mostly blanks doesn't mean all men do). Quite the opposite. Mexico having the same problems points to it being a problem with the women. June had sex with one random guardian and he was fertile. What about commander-two-million-children from last season (yes a few were stolen, but a lot were his bilogically)?

Frankly, you are letting what you read in the books influence you on this.

On 5/1/2021 at 9:14 PM, jade.black said:

I mean, yeah cool, I get it. But that doesn't stop it from being boring. Knowing that she's a producer and major player behind the scenes only make it seem like she's really fucking impressed with herself to continually put June front and center even when it's unrealistic to the storyline.

Yeah I'd like to think if I was a producer and director and I noticed my character on the show wasn't working anymore, I'd say "guys lets kill her off". Afterall, I'd still have two jobs to do. Who needs the stress of doing three,

It seems like she actually thinks what is going on is still working, when it hasn't been for two hole seasons.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Zonk

[EllaWycliffe]

Does it really matter who was infertile? Or thought they were infertile? I mean, I have to assume Fred and Serena tried to have a baby the old fashioned way and at some point decided it wasn't going to happen. 

I'd say the infertility crisis is affecting both sexes at this point - a lot of women aren't able to have babies and a lot of men are shooting blanks. That makes sense if the root cause is environmental, which the show has hinted at. 

[Zonk]

12 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Does it really matter who was infertile? Or thought they were infertile? I mean, I have to assume Fred and Serena tried to have a baby the old fashioned way and at some point decided it wasn't going to happen. 

I'd say the infertility crisis is affecting both sexes at this point - a lot of women aren't able to have babies and a lot of men are shooting blanks. That makes sense if the root cause is environmental, which the show has hinted at. 

It matters in the sense that one is correct and the other isn't. Obviously the book and the show differ in this regard and it irks me that some people can't seperate the two and even explicitly state that their knowledge comes from the books.

You might be right that both sexes are equally effected, but on the show it's clearly not just the men. In fact we have no idea how badly or if the men are effected, but we know that a lot of women are. Otherwise Mexico wouldn't be this desperate.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Zonk

[Umbelina]

31 minutes ago, Zonk said:

It matters in the sense that one is correct and the other isn't. Obviously the book and the show differ in this regard and it irks me that some people can't seperate the two and even explicitly state that their knowledge comes from the books.

You might be right that both sexes are equally effected, but on the show it's clearly not just the men. In fact we have no idea how badly or if the men are effected, but we know that a lot of women are. Otherwise Mexico wouldn't be this desperate.

It's clearly "not ever the men" for one reason and one reason only.  Men are perfect, women are shit.  Everything is the woman's fault

And as @EllaWycliffe pointed out, they have even hinted about some of those reasons several times on the show, if some viewers missed all of that, it's on them.  Specifically look at all war talk, and also the "back to basics" such as cooking, lack of electricity, and above all, the colonies.

All of which was on the show.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Umbelina

[TOL]

On 5/1/2021 at 3:14 PM, jade.black said:

I mean, yeah cool, I get it. But that doesn't stop it from being boring. Knowing that she's a producer and major player behind the scenes only make it seem like she's really fucking impressed with herself to continually put June front and center even when it's unrealistic to the storyline. You think Sean Bean didn't pull people in for the first season of GoT? Or RDJ didn't get people hooked on the Marvel movies? It's possible to cut loose a main character when it works in the overall favor of the show. I'm sure Moss can continue to produce and direct without also sticking herself in front of the camera, but I get the impression she's obsessed with her own brilliance (although honestly some of her acting choices baffle me) and it won't happen no matter how much titanium plot armor she needs to build around her character to keep her around. It's just become unrealistic, and I don't need to be force-fed side stories about how every other character (EVERY SINGLE ONE - Nick, Lawrence, Moira, Emily, Luke, Mrs Keyes, the other handmaids, it never ends) is just in awe of her heroics. 

You’ve said it better that I could. It’s just so tedious.  

[kathe5133]

I just have no words, it held my interest, except through the torture.  I fast forwarded through that, but it's starting to become a tad unbelievable given the story.  And what happened to all those commanders and the Aunt who were poisoned?  At first when I saw Joan and the guy who got shot in the head pulling up to a house, I thought they were pulling up to the whore house to take out all of the woman that were there.  That confused me. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

One burning question: has June failed as a leader?

 

[Bluesky]

On 4/28/2021 at 4:42 PM, LBS said:

@chocolatine @Umbelina  thank you for the quick response!  I’m going to play it by ear and if it gets too graphic for me, I’ll turn off.  Fair warned is fair armed.  Thanks again!

It was easy to fast forward those scenes.  Don’t worry!

[FierceCritter]

Welcome to Season 4. Where the torture gets even more torturous. And that soreness you feel in your shoulders and gut by the end of each episode comes roaring back full tilt.

Two wishes:

1) That this somehow is the last season
2) That it was easier for me to give up on shows before their final episode airs.

[FierceCritter]

On 4/28/2021 at 10:39 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It grossed me out to see Nick and Commander Lawrence conspiring to get June to rat out the location of the other girls. And of course it worked because Hanna is her weak spot. I had to shake my head when Nick admitted his part in using her daughter as a pawn to get her to betray her friends and her response was to run back so she could kiss him and tell him that she loved him.

Better writing would have been:

scene/
June meets Nick on the bridge. She pulls Nick close, they touch foreheads, she says,
"Stop fucking saving me, you son of a bitch."
June walks away, not turning back. Nick looks on, feeling woefully unappreciated.
/scene

scene/
June and the other handmaids are in the van with Aunt Lydia. The van is stopped at the train crossing while the driver takes a piss far enough away from the van for it to take minutes, not seconds, to get back.

June makes a grab for Aunt Lydia's cattle prod. She zaps her just enough to stun, but not totally disable her. Forces her out of the van, while the other handmaids look on. Over Aunt Lydia's protests, June forces her to the train tracks, not letting her go. They stand together, and the train hits them. Dead, dead, dead.

Back at the van, the handmaids shed silent tears. Then lock pinkies in a circle, look at each other determinedly. In unison, they all say,
"Mayday."
/scene

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by FierceCritter

[FierceCritter]

 

On 4/28/2021 at 1:12 PM, LordOfLotion said:

This show is my train wreck now.

 

I see what you did there.

[kittykat]

Damn you Radiohead and your beautiful song being played over a tragic scene.  RIP Sarah, Elie, Brianna and Alma.

Ending notwithstanding appreciated the table setting we got especially with Aunt Lydia.  I know most are exasperated with June but those were some A grade moments at the beginning there with Elisabeth and Ann. I did enjoy June throwing "your fault" from their training days back at Lydia.

Nice little guest appearance by HitG Reed Birney.  The ones with the affable, cheery dispositions are always the ones to look out for.

23 hours ago, Zonk said:

It matters in the sense that one is correct and the other isn't. Obviously the book and the show differ in this regard and it irks me that some people can't seperate the two and even explicitly state that their knowledge comes from the books.

You might be right that both sexes are equally effected, but on the show it's clearly not just the men. In fact we have no idea how badly or if the men are effected, but we know that a lot of women are. Otherwise Mexico wouldn't be this desperate.

In both book and show it has been referenced that men are most definitely part of the problem.  Exposure to the nuclear laden areas had contributed to that.  IIRC there was a doctor who told June that in some cases it was the men who were infertile but that it was obviously against the law to say so.  Of course there are infertile women out there as the issues of unbabies and shredders were prevalent before Gilead.

However by Gilead Logic of the Blessed Variety, the reason the fertility crisis happen was because them dang womyn wanted CAREERS and had ALL the ABORTIONS and didn't want to answer their godly calling of being docile, subservient baby makers, whose sole purpose is to prop up their husband/master.

While they haven't explored it much on the show there was obviously a global environmental crisis that the Sons of Jacob also chalked up to wanton women.  Little comments about how their food is 100% organic now and how clean the streets are.  Small references to neo-Capitalism causing great economic inequality also caused the SoJ to reach out to so called "marginalized" (poor, white) people and say Subjugate All the Women!

June and Lawrence's meeting was the mission statement of all that.  It was never about the babies, it was always about power.

[chaifan]

I knew even before watching this episode it was going to be a doozy.  My clue?  Almost twice as many comments on this thread than in Eps 1 and 2!  😂

I hate it when smart characters on a smart show are written to do such dumb dumb dumb things.  Let us count the ways...

Dumb Thing #1 (I mentioned this in the thread for Ep 1 or 2):  Canada revealing that June was still alive.  No one in Gilead would have known whether or not she was on the plane, and letting Gilead know she was alive made her a big honkin' target, again.  Same with any of the other handmaids.  None of the guards they fought in the woods would have been able to identify any of them.  If no one in Gilead knew June was alive, Nick wouldn't have been waiting for her at the farmhouse after the other handmaids left for the yellow safe house.

Dumb Thing #2: Handmaids staying put at the yellow safe house, knowing (or at least having a damn good idea) June had been captured at the Keyes' farmhouse.  If someone is left behind, you presume capture, torture, and your position being given away.  So you immediately move somewhere else.  At least a day's time lapsed in this episode, maybe more.  No reason for them to still be there.  Or at least hide better. 

Dumb Thing #3:  No matter how long the drive is to her ultimate doom, June never seeming to have a plausible lie handy in case of capture, which happens so frequently.  "Where are the other handmaids?"  "I don't know - I was being taken by the cute guard that you just killed to meet someone in the resistance, but our contact didn't show.  The handmaids left without me.  I don't know where they went.  Cute guard knew, and was going to take me, but you killed him.  Too bad for you."  Would that have saved her from torture?  Probably not, but better than just smirking and letting them know you know where they are.  Could have bought them more time to leave the damn safe house!

Dumb Thing #4:  OK, you couldn't make up a lie quick enough upon capture.  So lie to Lawrence!  Why trust him at all at this point?  Give another misdirect, something that takes more time to fact check than a library in Vermont.  (Which they wouldn't have been able to get to in a day anyways, so how smirky godly torture guy would have known she was lying that fast is also a mystery.)

Dumb Thing #5:  Said before by others... trusting and kissing and saying I love you to the guy that just used you daughter as a bargaining chip to imprison, rape and torture 5 other women.  I would have thrown him over the damn bridge.

Dumb Thing #6:  Not knocking Lydia out, allowing her to scream for the guard.

Dumb Thing #7:  Not one handmaid thought about trying to drive the van over the tracks?  Yeah, the guard probably had the keys, but who knows? 

Dumb Thing #8:  Not using Lydia's cattle prod to kill the van tires.  Or at least try.  OK, they can run over the tracks.  Trains aren't that long.  The van would catch up with them in a few minutes.  Then what?

ugh.  I don't mind characters dying, but these aren't dumb characters, and conveniently dumb decision making is just as bad as convenient plot armor.  It's lazy writing.  If they needed everyone except Janine and June dead by the end of the episode, do it in a way consistent with the characters behavior in the past. 

I wonder who's idea it was to leave Esther behind.  Can't imagine that will turn out well, either.

 

[LBS]

I finally watched it and the torture scenes weren’t as bad as I imagined (not that I’m imagining torture on the regular 😂).  Thanks again for everyone who told me to hang in there.  For some reason this season is leaving me feeling off.  I’m not connecting with most of the characters besides Moira and oddly Luke.  I agree with most of the discourse about June/plot armor really taking the stakes out of any tension.  And I was really po’d about Alma. She was the only one who voiced reason/dissent to June and now that she’s gone I’m afraid of more hero-worship with no repercussions from her actions that aren’t hand waved away (I.e they casually mention that there was a massive purge at the brothel and hardly any of those Jezebels survived and we’re supposed to be ok with that?).  I’m going to continue to watch because it is still excellent  acting, music choices, etc but I really hope they tighten up plot lines.  

[chocolatine]

5 hours ago, LBS said:

I’m not connecting with most of the characters besides Moira and oddly Luke.

I've started to like him, too. He's so sweet with baby Nicole, even though it must be tearing him up inside that she's June's child with another man, and that his own daughter, Hannah, is still in Gilead. The scene of them burying the green persimmon together was beautiful.

[kelslamu]

I just couldn't see them getting very far running after the fact.  That train can't be that long.  They are wearing bright red with not very many choices to hide in that sparse terrain. *sigh*  It took me a while to watch these episodes because this show frustrates the hell out of me.   I will continue to watch just to hopefully see some of the characters I can't stand get their comeuppance.  

[greekmom]

They just aired the episode in Canada. I cannot believe after all that June gives up the location of the Handmaids. She could have insisted that they jumped ship and left her alone when she was coming back .

Pretty much Hannah is lost to Gilead. June should should just mourn her daughter and not given up.

I agree with the poster above who said that Lawrence should have died instead of Alma and the other ladies (fuck you Lydia they are women/ladies NOT girls).

 

[mamadrama]

Someone said that Hannah was too old for playing with that doll. That's what they do to women there, though. They infantilize them until it's time to teach them embroidery and marry them off. They're either "girls" or wives.

Me looking at Hannah's "Handmaid lite" outfit while she's in the cage: 😣😵 That's creepy AF.

Me in my private school uniform in the 80's:

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 4/28/2021 at 3:11 AM, chocolatine said:

Fuck this show.

This show is sick.  Sick sick sick.  Sick.  Sick.

Maybe this is my last one. I don't know.  And if not, this is the starting of the ending.  I think I've emotionally turned a corner.  I've ditched many shows before, so this is not all talk.  Once a show loses me, I'm lost for good......

On 4/28/2021 at 4:01 PM, LBS said:

I haven’t read the comments because I don’t want to spoil myself but I’ve heard that this episode is “torture porn” like.  Is it really that bad?  If so I may skip and just read the Vulture recap.   I get really anxious watching those kinds of scenes but I also don’t want to miss any emotional development.  TIA. 

So much worse.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 4/29/2021 at 10:32 PM, PsychoDrone said:

I have to admit that keeping the handmaids around for the breeding camp, instead of killing them, made sense.  Although, in the show's true fashion it crafted a final scene that was just dumb.  Of course, June had to escape again.  And, she ruins it by trying to hurt Lydia.  They all could have made it.  The Guardian shooting at them, killing one, didn't make sense.  He knew the handmaid's purpose, so keeping them alive was paramount.  If anything, they should have had Lydia jump him to stop him from shooting at them.  Couldn't have that though.  Show dictates that handmaids must die, and plot armor June survives, so that's what happened.  At least have Alma and Janine survive.  The others were pretty much fodder, but Alma had potential as a character.

Very good points, all of them.  I'm getting so re-angry.....

[SourK]

One thing I kept thinking this episode was that there's a case to be made that it's psychologically easier to deal with Gilead if you're already an enemy of the state and there's no ambiguity about what's going to happen to you if you get captured. In some ways, that feels less stressful than the dance they have to do when they're trying to believe they can survive and not get hurt.

However, I also felt like they could have deleted the whole sequence where June got captured and just had the army find them all at Esther's farm, and then let them get killed by the train, and we'd be in the same place. I don't feel like the torture sequence taught us anything we didn't already know or changed the characters -- except maybe Lydia, during that hilarious scene where June was like, "I'm not trapped in here with you, YOU'RE TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!!"... but that remains to be seen.

On 4/29/2021 at 2:39 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Someone (Nick?) said that Esther had been rescued and was safe so I briefly thought that June and the other handmaids would be accused of kidnapping her.

I briefly thought that that would be a good lie to tell. If June's super secret boyfriend let her know that no one was on Esther's farm anymore, I'd expect the first thing she said to be "They're at Esther's farm," because then everybody knows that's true, but it doesn't help them, and it's easier to pretend she doesn't know where they went after that.

However, I guess it would have taken away the option to lie and say they went somewhere else, which she tried a few scenes later.

On 5/1/2021 at 10:20 AM, Helena Dax said:

I think someone like June would have tried to kill herself the moment they murdered the Marthas or at least when she understood they were going to use Hannah against her.

Also imagine how badass it would be (of the show) if June was placed in the moral dilemma of having to kill the Marthas or betray the Handmaids and then she did a Buffy Summers and realized the third option was to jump off the roof and kill herself (um... spoilers for Buffy). June would be a hero, everyone would be justified in continuously talking about how great she was, and the other characters could pick up the torch and have interesting story lines...

Oh well.

On 5/3/2021 at 9:55 PM, chaifan said:

Dumb Thing #5:  Said before by others... trusting and kissing and saying I love you to the guy that just used you daughter as a bargaining chip to imprison, rape and torture 5 other women.  I would have thrown him over the damn bridge.

I don't like Nick, I don't trust Nick, and I still believe Nick is the one who messed up June's escape attempt in season two. I also dislike this thing where he was retroactively made a super influential person in the military so that he can get away with popping up wherever it's convenient, and everyone just turns a blind eye to him making out with the fugitive.

 

[Umbelina]

Someone asked about the long trains and the milk container.

I have seen super long trains, but I think with the gas shortages they've mentioned on the show, along with us continually seeing nearly empty roads, it's a pretty good guess that they do use trains much more now, rather than semi trucks.  Longer is cheaper.  Also, easier to haul the milk in a refrigerated car like that than to haul plastic bottles (wait, does Gilead even use plastics anymore?)  Anyway, and then bottle it closer to where it will be used.

[mamadrama]

25 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Someone asked about the long trains and the milk container.

I have seen super long trains, but I think with the gas shortages they've mentioned on the show, along with us continually seeing nearly empty roads, it's a pretty good guess that they do use trains much more now, rather than semi trucks.  Longer is cheaper.  Also, easier to haul the milk in a refrigerated car like that than to haul plastic bottles (wait, does Gilead even use plastics anymore?)  Anyway, and then bottle it closer to where it will be used.

Milk tankers were popular during the Depression era, but they were mostly used in the UK. One milk car held around 3,000 gallons. Some had buffers. They didn't last long because the cars were so heavy that it was hard to move them. 

Imo they wanted the visual of white liquid and the maternity symbolism. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by mamadrama

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Milk tankers were popular during the Depression era, but they were mostly used in the UK. One milk car held around 3,000 gallons. Some had buffers. They didn't last long because the cars were so heavy that it was hard to move them. 

Imo they wanted the visual of white liquid and the maternity symbolism. 

Interesting.  It made me go look.  Wikipedia has a long article about them.  I agree with you about the symbolism too.

Most railway-owned milk cars were made of wood; but the Erie Railroad built over two hundred steel cars in the 1930s, and fifty steel cars delivered to B&M in 1958 were the last milk cars built for United States railroads.

Now it's apparently still often transported in large tanks, but they are on semi trucks.

About 80 percent of milk trucks are tractor-trailers with the remaining being straight chassis tank trucks. A typical straight chassis truck will have a 4,000 to 5,000 gallon tank, while a typical trailer will hold 7,000 to 8,000 gallons.

I can see Gilead going back to the old ways, especially without enough gas to run semi trucks all the time.

[Kel Varnsen]

I have to hand it to this show, even with all the dumb stuff that happens I think this is the first time I have seen a torture scene where the person being questioned makes up a lie to get the torture to stop. It seems like such an obvious move but it never happens.

Also even with all the torture the most tense scene for me was Luke sitting in his front yard with Nicole. How the hell do you just sit out there exposed with no security and the international incident baby?

On 4/29/2021 at 4:16 PM, tennisgurl said:

 Gilead might say its thing is children, its actually misogyny or, more broadly, oppression. The all about the children and making children is just what they say to keep the indoctrinated in line and the crap they sell to the world to make themselves look better so that maybe some other countries might consider doing business with them, but its so obviously a lie. If they were really all about babies, they wouldn't kill fertility specialists or force doctors who could help with medical issues become Martha's or kill people like Eden and her boyfriend who would certainly have loved to have babies together because they broke their stupid rules about creepy arranged marriages, Gilead is all about oppression and power. 

The thing Is can't wrap my head around is that Gilead is all about maintaining the power of the commanders, and those are the guys who made the laws. But they also made it illegal for many of them to have sex with their wives. Why would jerks like that make a law like that. You would think it would be the exact opposite, the law is that there wife has to have sex with them whenever they want.

On 4/30/2021 at 6:35 PM, aghst said:

She's associated with one of the greatest prestige TV shows in history.

Two actually, since don't forget she was also Jed Bartlett's daughter.

On 5/3/2021 at 9:55 PM, chaifan said:

 Give another misdirect, something that takes more time to fact check than a library in Vermont.  (Which they wouldn't have been able to get to in a day anyways, so how smirky godly torture guy would have known she was lying that fast is also a mystery.)

I am pretty sure they still have phones in Gilead. It wouldn't be too hard for the torture centre to call the Eyes Burlington Field office and ask them to go check out the library. 

[chaifan]

54 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am pretty sure they still have phones in Gilead. It wouldn't be too hard for the torture centre to call the Eyes Burlington Field office and ask them to go check out the library. 

The "they" I was referring to taking more than a day was the handmaids, not the eyes/guards.  I meant it would take more than a day or so for the handmaids to get to Vermont, since presumably they would have to change modes of travel, walk some, rest, etc.  So it made no sense that after a day the torture guy was able to make a phone call, have someone say "nope, no handmaids here at the library in Vermont", and to conclude June was lying about it.  Even if June were telling the truth, the handmaids would have still been in transit, would not have reached the library yet.  (I don't really know where they were - did the show ever say where the Keyes' farm was?  I was just assuming they were about 1/2 way between Boston and Chicago.)

But as to my main point, come up with a lie that takes more than a phone call to fact check.  Or, she could have said, "the next safe house is the library at Burlington college in Vermont.  They said the route would not be direct and would take them 5 days."

 

[greekmom]

Forgot to mention this but was anyone else hoping that when they were on the roof scene that June would push that asshole Commander off the ledge?  Just for shits and giggles?

I don't think they would have killed her even at that point because she had not said where the Handmaids are. Personally I also think if push came to shove and she didn't tell them where the rest of the gang was the Commander wouldn't have killed Hannah.  Maybe torture her a bit but not hurt her. She's a Commander's "daughter" and a healthy female. 

[AngelaHunter]

I've watched this show from the beginning and I'm just catching up on this season. June is dragged from torture to torture (waterboading? An Iron Box? Really? If you can't think of a storyline, torture is always an option?) to force her to reveal the whereabouts of the other handmaids. Incredibly loud, manipulative music blares constantly, even during 1-on-1 conversations to the point where I had to lower my volume and I'm nearly deaf.

June reveals where the handmaids are after she sees her daughter, who bears not the faintest resemblance to her mother to such a degree I thought they pulled a switcheroo on June. Hannah seems happy to sit in a glass box playing with some doll until she sees June and then is terrified. I don't know what the hell is going on.

So why, after June caused so much trouble (It seems she's suspected of having something to do with all the commanders being poisoned  at the whorehouse), she plotted and incited handmaids to make a mass escape along with 86 kids and finally told the Evil Nazi interrogator what he wanted to know, would they not just execute her, when others (like the two pushed off the building) are executed for far less or no reason at all? Is June such a valuable, prized, irreplaceable commodity she must be kept alive no matter what crimes she commits against TPTB?

Nick bores me. Like, he seriously does. The Toronto segments, the candle lighting, and Luke, burying his green persimmon to sad, sentimental music bore me.

June the Teflon Handmaid is in handcuffs, again. She's on some transport to another place, again. She escapes, again. Whatever. I guess I'll save the rest of this for the odd rainy Sunday.

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I've watched this show from the beginning and I'm just catching up on this season. June is dragged from torture to torture (waterboading? An Iron Box? Really? If you can't think of a storyline, torture is always an option?) to force her to reveal the whereabouts of the other handmaids. Incredibly loud, manipulative music blares constantly, even during 1-on-1 conversations to the point where I had to lower my volume and I'm nearly deaf.

June reveals where the handmaids are after she sees her daughter, who bears not the faintest resemblance to her mother to such a degree I thought they pulled a switcheroo on June. Hannah seems happy to sit in a glass box playing with some doll until she sees June and then is terrified. I don't know what the hell is going on.

So why, after June caused so much trouble (It seems she's suspected of having something to do with all the commanders being poisoned  at the whorehouse), she plotted and incited handmaids to make a mass escape along with 86 kids and finally told the Evil Nazi interrogator what he wanted to know, would they not just execute her, when others (like the two pushed off the building) are executed for far less or no reason at all? Is June such a valuable, prized, irreplaceable commodity she must be kept alive no matter what crimes she commits against TPTB?

Nick bores me. Like, he seriously does. The Toronto segments, the candle lighting, and Luke, burying his green persimmon to sad, sentimental music bore me.

June the Teflon Handmaid is in handcuffs, again. She's on some transport to another place, again. She escapes, again. Whatever. I guess I'll save the rest of this for the odd rainy Sunday.

I giggled through most of this because it's true.

My kids have started calling June "OfCanola." It's not just plot armor anymore, it's olive oil. And not the Dollar General brand. 

[SourK]

8 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Hannah seems happy to sit in a glass box playing with some doll until she sees June and then is terrified. I don't know what the hell is going on.

 

Yeah, if occurs to me that, in season one, Hannah was presented as a specific individual that June had a relationship with and, since then, she's sort of become a plot point that you can pick up and put in the room to move June's story along.

It would have made more sense if they'd had a two-way mirror and brought Hannah in to do something innocuous that wouldn't scare her, and let June see through the mirror that they had her. That would have probably been enough.

[Umbelina]

13 hours ago, SourK said:

Yeah, if occurs to me that, in season one, Hannah was presented as a specific individual that June had a relationship with and, since then, she's sort of become a plot point that you can pick up and put in the room to move June's story along.

It would have made more sense if they'd had a two-way mirror and brought Hannah in to do something innocuous that wouldn't scare her, and let June see through the mirror that they had her. That would have probably been enough.

I don't see her as a plot point.  She's June's child, and for most of the series she's been June's ONE goal, to get Hannah out of there.

That changed after the month of kneeling in the hospital, June going slightly crazy, knowing that Hannah couldn't now be found, thanks to the pregnant handmaid being kept alive to deliver her baby.  Now, even Lawrence couldn't find Hannah.  So, June's focus changed to "getting them all out."

On the last part?  I think they wanted Hannah scared, and for June to see her terror.  As others have said, they probably told her all kinds of things just so she would be frightened when June came in.  Hannah's terror was the main part of the torture, along with wondering what else they might do to her, in that box, where June could see it all, and Hannah could see June not saving her.

[DanaMB]

On 4/28/2021 at 10:39 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It grossed me out to see Nick and Commander Lawrence conspiring to get June to rat out the location of the other girls. And of course it worked because Hanna is her weak spot. I had to shake my head when Nick admitted his part in using her daughter as a pawn to get her to betray her friends and her response was to run back so she could kiss him and tell him that she loved him. And weren't there guardians watching? That didn't seem very discreet.

I actually thought this was one of the better eps recently, until the scene with Nick. Fuck him. And, I was also wondering how they could just stand there kissing. Took me out of an ep I had been pretty glued to. 

[Emily Thrace]

On 4/28/2021 at 8:44 PM, chocolatine said:

Of course that ended up happening anyway, because her husband chose to help June.

I don't think she acted like June was a stranger, she acted like June was a monster. She was most likely told that her mom is responsible for the kidnapping of 86 children, and who knows what else. Remember in S2 or S3 where Nick arranged visits for June and Hannah at the Mackenzies' summer house? Hannah's Martha was involved in this arrangement, and, if I'm not mistaken, was killed when the Mackenzies found out. So Hannah was probably also told that the loss of the Martha was June's fault.

Considering Gileads general policy on punishment I don't doubt they take "spare the rod spoil the child" very literally. Every child in Gilead is probably beaten or at least hit with something for even small infractions. I wouldn't be surprised if the McKenzies beat poor little Hannah severely every time Junes name came up.

[EllaWycliffe]

47 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

Considering Gileads general policy on punishment I don't doubt they take "spare the rod spoil the child" very literally. Every child in Gilead is probably beaten or at least hit with something for even small infractions. I wouldn't be surprised if the McKenzies beat poor little Hannah severely every time Junes name came up.

I disagree. I am sure Gilead spanks, don't get me wrong, but everyone seems very much into spoiling the few children that exists. Hannah's response, in my opinion, comes from being ripped from her Gilead parents - the mom of whom seems very attached, and frankly I've got no reason to think the dad is different - and thrown into a creepy box and no doubt told a series of harsh lies about the creepy Handmaid who has periodically disrupted her life.. The McKenzies were willing to move far away to *protect* Hannah from June, they probably aren't whipping her bloody every day. 

eta - I'd also argue that the tendency to spoil and indulge is why the new young wives we've seen have had no real preparedness for how draconian life in Gilead is. Nick's wife was pretty actively rule breaking with no real fear - that suggests a child not used to being beaten for reading for example, and Mrs. Keyes, while admittedly abused, didn't seem to realize that was going to be her lot in life, or that assisting the Resistance was likely to lead to punishment.

Edited May 10, 2021 by EllaWycliffe

[jenn31]

On 4/28/2021 at 1:39 PM, Umbelina said:

June didn't get anyone killed.  Gilead did.

You know what I mean. Gilead may have pulled the trigger, so to speak, but June led them to their deaths. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, jenn31 said:

You know what I mean. Gilead may have pulled the trigger, so to speak, but June led them to their deaths. 

No.

Gilead did.

Gilead has killed thousands of people, perhaps millions of people.  We've seen them on the wall for just being educated, or for being suspected homosexuals, or for being scientists, or Catholic nuns or priests, or disobedient in any way.  Or, just for the hell of it, particulated for made up reasons.  We know many of them were in the resistance, but Gilead never admits that, so they say they were rapists or faithless.

Throughout the show we've heard about the various wars Gilead is fighting, not with other countries, but with Americans who do not accept Gilead's take over of the USA.  Hundreds, thousands, probably millions of people fighting and dying and killing Gilead loyalists every day.  Why?  Not because of June, but because Gilead is a horrific regime that killed the elected leaders of the USA, and then took over.

June is just another freedom fighter, better than some, worse than others, who is learning to fight, she certainly is not trained former military, as some of the other resisters.  

The Martha's had their own resistance group of Mayday, smuggling people out, and smuggling people to the resistance who could make bombs, they lost as many as they saved, but I would never say "they got people killed."  Emily kissed a girl, but I would never say Emily got that girl hung.

Gilead did. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Umbelina
added millions, as that is much more likely

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The Martha's had their own resistance group of Mayday, smuggling people out, and smuggling people to the resistance who could make bombs, they lost as many as they saved, but I would never say "they got people killed."  Emily kissed a girl, but I would never say Emily got that girl hung.

Gilead did. 

Yea plus in the last few episodes most of the people who have been killed would probably had been killed regardless of whatever June did. It is not like they were just going to let those Martha's on the rooftop go, especially since to Gilead they probably have almost no value. Same with the driver guy who drove June back to the farm. He was a resistance guy so probably on borrowed time. Even the other Handmaids this episode. When June attacked Lydia it is not like they tried to save her. They all new the risk in running and June hardly forced them to.

[jenn31]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

No.

Gilead did.

No.

June led them to it. The rest is nitpicking. 

[mamadrama]

56 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

No.

June led them to it. The rest is nitpicking. 

I am with you on this.

I don't even see June as a "freedom fighter", just a regular person who's been put into some irregular situations. The majority of what she's done has been for herself and didn't benefit anyone else. The only thing she's coordinated is the Angel Flight, but there's no way she could've done it without the Marthas, other Handmaids, and Lawrence. 

[ReganX]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:11 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

I disagree. I am sure Gilead spanks, don't get me wrong, but everyone seems very much into spoiling the few children that exists. Hannah's response, in my opinion, comes from being ripped from her Gilead parents - the mom of whom seems very attached, and frankly I've got no reason to think the dad is different - and thrown into a creepy box and no doubt told a series of harsh lies about the creepy Handmaid who has periodically disrupted her life.. The McKenzies were willing to move far away to *protect* Hannah from June, they probably aren't whipping her bloody every day.

According to Frances, Hannah was physically punished by the McKenzies twice. She'd have been with them around four years by then.

The children of Commanders are indulged, as a rule. The glimpse of Hannah's bedroom shows pictures of her smiling with other little girls and with Mrs McKenzie. The Winslows had a large room turned into a playroom, and Polly thought nothing of interrupting High Commander Winslow and Fred to get them to have a tea party with her. Based on her age, she would have been taken from her parents to be given to the Winslows rather than being born of a Handmaid and High Commander Winslow. Same goes for three of the other children in the Winslow household. When the little ones were paraded in front of the ambassador in Season One, none of them seemed in the least bit shy about the adults playing with them, which suggests that they are used to seeing the adults around them as friendly.

It wouldn't surprise me if indulgence is part of the strategy to get the children taken from parents deemed "unfit" and given to Commanders to adopt to adjust to their new families.

They are told that their birth parents are unfit but that they want what's best for them, so they are going to get a brand new family to take care of them. They're spoiled materially but also lavished with attention. June faced disapproval as a working mother, so I don't doubt that one of the selling points of Hannah's new family would be that her new mother would be at home to look after her all the time. No chores because there's a Martha for that.

I would say that the children are treated like little princes and princesses, and constantly told how lucky and privileged they are to have been chosen by their new families.

Of course, it means that it's going to be an even greater shock to them when, like Esther Keyes, they go from being a cherished, indulged Daughter to a Wife subject to the rule of a potentially abusive husband.

[MV713]

On 4/28/2021 at 8:19 PM, Umbelina said:

 

One of the greatest books of all time, Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" followed many years later by a new book last year, "The Testaments."  

 

Agree! I think I read this book when I was in high school or college in late 80s and it had a strong impact on me.  When I saw they were making the series I was giddy!  I tried to read Testament but the continuation differed so much from what the show has established in season 2-3 that I had a hard time with it.

After watching this episode and considering, and reading the comments here, I did not get the feeling that June orchestrated the van heist alone.  They all looked at each other with knowing glances.  I think Alma was the first to jump up?  I am pissed they did not shoot Lydia, but I get that the actress is one of the most highly regarded so they would not kill her off, even though she has had the shit beat out of here so many times already.  I have stopped at this episode because I want to savor the journey.  I blew through the first 3 episodes !  had to keep watching to see what was next.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, MV713 said:

Agree! I think I read this book when I was in high school or college in late 80s and it had a strong impact on me.  When I saw they were making the series I was giddy!  I tried to read Testament but the continuation differed so much from what the show has established in season 2-3 that I had a hard time with it.

After watching this episode and considering, and reading the comments here, I did not get the feeling that June orchestrated the van heist alone.  They all looked at each other with knowing glances.  I think Alma was the first to jump up?  I am pissed they did not shoot Lydia, but I get that the actress is one of the most highly regarded so they would not kill her off, even though she has had the shit beat out of here so many times already.  I have stopped at this episode because I want to savor the journey.  I blew through the first 3 episodes !  had to keep watching to see what was next.

I agree.  Can't talk about the sequel here, but can in the Testaments thread.

I think the show wanted significant deaths, not just "red shirt" deaths of people we don't know or care about.  Still, making June look stupid for not killing Lydia, or at least stunning her was an odd choice.  Then again, Lydia has avoided killing June several times, so maybe it was payback, or maybe it, at this point in the show, was too difficult to kill her close up and in a personal way.  Still, why not stun her?  

It was a shocking scene though, watching that train hit those three.  I feel like it was saying "we aren't playing around anymore."  This is war, and this happens in war.