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S03:E04 Take Me to Church


AgentRXS
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(edited)
37 minutes ago, SlutAssBitchAssHor said:

I really enjoyed this episode.

Me, too! Anytime I can hear Billy Porter sing his heart out out...💕. Love that Jackee was one of his aunts. I just teared up at that scene in the diner with her and Pray. 
Who was that woman singing when Pray went to the church with the church lady Aunt? She was amazing. 

Edited by LittleIggy
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I really wanted as much redemption as possible for the folks in this ep.  Much of it fell flat, though.  I think it's the pride Pray was holding on to that limited the impact.  Too much Paul Anka, not enough self awareness.  

Still, there is no doubting that Prayerful has a lot of good in him.  I love him for rebuking Vernon's advances.  It's also to his credit that he wasn't completely lost to darkness given the abuse he suffered as a boy.  It had to crush his spirit that his mommy refused to end his personal hell.

I'm not sure what the issue was with the doc who gave him the bad news.  He tried to create a private space, which was a sensitive act.  He addressed Pray as Pray addressed him - as a respectful adult.  Blanca and Doc Judy were trippin'.

A touch I loved and appreciated was when Pray was looking out from the bus as it was heading back to NYC.  The sign on the church listed a pastor Dickson.  Not Jackson.  If only the rest of the series were as careful with detail/continuity.

Although I must admit Pray's instructions about Elektra were a hoot, I don't get why he holds such contempt for her, especially since we saw her backstory.   Her ballroom greatness was to his benefit, too.  The request also served to limit the redemption arc.  It was definitely in character!

 

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46 minutes ago, SlutAssBitchAssHor said:

I really enjoyed this episode.

I did too.  I have to admit that I was actually dreading it when I read the description.  I'm not usually a fan of the "going home" episodes that are largely without the regular cast.  Plus, the first two episodes already focused on Pray's addiction-related drama and were kind of awful.

But this episode proved me wrong in every way.  Pray's family was played by great actresses.  All the reckoning was great.  I'm glad Vernon didn't show up at the end. We knew he wouldn't.  I don't think Pray would feel comfortable that an old boyfriend left his kids to be by his side.

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Well, these last two character based episodes have been PHENOMENAL.  I was also not really looking forward to the concept, but I found myself pulled in from the jump with the lymphoma diagnosis. We have a few HIV positive characters, and while I know it would be painfully unrealistic to not have some of them pass, I don't want to lose any of our loves. I don't want to see Pray's funeral...he's so...alive to me.  **weeps**

The trip home was beautifully done.  I loved the casting of his mom and aunts...that's fucking royalty, and all three actress deliver Pray some closure in their very different ways.  I love that Jackee thought enough about Power of Attorney, so Pray can have his wishes followed.  Truly, Billy Porter is a gifted national treasure.  His song at the church was moving and monumental.  Go ahead and give him his next Emmy right now.    

As a straight woman, I didn't expect to relate so much to Pray this episode. My parents are mixed religion (Muslim and Hindu...I know...) and I was supposed to be a Muslim.  I just...couldn't.  For various reasons, it was apparent that it wasn't for me.  Even now, this is a sensitive spot for my mother.  Not 3 weeks ago, mom decided it would be fun to jump on me about her massive disappointment for not being Muslim.  And I felt like Pray:  I have my own spirituality, I know I try so hard to be the best human I can be, and I know mom is mostly upset b/c she is uncomfortable with how to address me with family.  In her older years and newly retired, she has become more devout, and she has strong feelings about regret for my not taking to religion.  So, when Pray talked to his mother about his all after the dinner, I felt some kinda way.  Shooo.  So much.  My situation continues to be unresolved, but my answer with mom is clear - You live your truth, and I'll live mine and that's all okay.  I'm glad Pray got some closure.  

The storyline with Vernon was unexpected, but everyone knew he wasn't showing up.  Vernon gets to live with his demons about his comfort and openness with his sexuality, and his family will certainly feel those consequences in some fashion. Sigh. What a tough reality of oppression and sadness. 

Finally, I loved the scene at the end at another family dinner.  Loved them talking about Left Eye burning down Andre Raisen's house and Angel's "but I'll burn them in essential oils".  LOL  So good. 

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I was hoping that somehow the title of this episode would be less literal; the religious stuff is a huge turnoff for me, so this episode was a slog to get through, and way too paint by numbers for my taste.  And no no no Pray Tell! Let your aunt come, but give your power of attorney to Blanca or another member of your chosen queer family who is educated about hiv/aids and you know will follow your wishes to the t, not be cowed or convinced by religious/homophobic family members to do what they want instead. So many queer people have been ripped away from the ones who love and accept them in their last days/their funeral etc. by disapproving families who use the law to impose themselves. I feel like that's something that the show has not really shown very much; what bio families often take away if given the chance.

Damn, Pray's outfit looked fabulous as hell at the bus station at the end. I don't imagine I was actually supposed to root for Vernon to show up? It's all such cliched repressed misery, ugh.   At least next week looks better/more dynamic. I hope we don't have to visit Papi's or Angel's or Lulu's bio family in the coming episodes.   What I care about are the families that we build and choose for ourselves. 

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9 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I'm not sure what the issue was with the doc who gave him the bad news.  He tried to create a private space, which was a sensitive act.  He addressed Pray as Pray addressed him - as a respectful adult.  Blanca and Doc Judy were trippin'.

The way he delivered the news was very robotic. It was the same tone someone might use when saying, "Your car's engine needs some work."

A doctor with a decent bedside manner would have at least said something like, "Have a seat. Your results have come back, and unfortunately, the news is not good."

That said, his honesty was better than sugarcoating it or giving him false hope. But there's a way to be honest without being completely devoid of compassion.

 

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As much as I love the Pray Tell character, I would not mind if next episode we have taken a time jump and Pray is already dead and gone. This episode would make a superb final look at the character. 
I don’t wish to spend time watching him deteriorate, die, and be buried; I’d rather see the other characters in the future reacting to and living without him. 
With only a few episodes left and no next season, we have too many other stories to wrap up to dedicate another episode to Pray Tell’s story…….even though, as I said up top, I do love the character, and Billy Porter. 

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I enjoyed this episode so much I was left kind of speechless at the end.  I had to watch it again.

While I immediately recognized Jackee and Ana Maria, it took me a while to recognize...Aunt Viv!   

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8 hours ago, Glade said:

Let your aunt come, but give your power of attorney to Blanca or another member of your chosen queer family who is educated about hiv/aids and you know will follow your wishes to the t, not be cowed or convinced by religious/homophobic family members to do what they want instead.

I'm honestly surprised Pray has not already given his POA to Blanca or some other trusted person in NY.  Given all the people he knows who have died, he must have seen things already play out where loved ones are shut out by the family when someone is dying and medical decisions need to be made. 

I didn't much care for the Vernon storyline.  It felt unnecessary and ultimately, as expected, it went nowhere. 

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(edited)

A throughline this season seems to be many of our cast members getting apologies from everyone who ever hurt them. Cubby's mom, Elektra's mom, and now Pray's whole family. It strikes me as wish fulfillment on the part of the writers but that's alright. It feels good to end this season and series basking in the love and seeing this family get a little vindication.

I share the joy at seeing the trifecta of 90s sitcom greatness. I especially like seeing them play serious roles. We know that they can play comedy but all three are very good in serious roles and it was wonderful to see them get a chance to flex those muscles. It was also great to see Norm Lewis and Michelle Hurd as Vernon and Ebony. These are two character actors who always bring it. Does Norm Lewis ever play a character that wins love? I remember him playing Edison on Scandal and this reminded me of that. Dude is always on the losing side of a love triangle.

Edited by marceline
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(edited)

When Ebony (the pastor's wife) was talking about her children, she said that there's five years between "Cynthia and the baby."

We're supposed to believe that someone who's the same age as Norm Lewis recently gave birth?!?!

This is the kind of sloppiness that could have been avoided so easily by adjusting the writing slightly. Just have her say that it's been five years since they last slept together, without giving her an absurdly late-in-life baby.

Edited by Blakeston
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2 hours ago, marceline said:

Does Norm Lewis ever play a character that wins love? I remember him playing Edison on Scandal and this reminded me of that. Dude is always on the losing side of a love triangle.

I knew I'd seen him somewhere before, but I just couldn't remember the show, so thanks!

I thought the acting by all the characters was on point, and not overwrought for drama.  Even Pray's discussions with his mom seemed realistic, even though there was shouting.  

And finally, I loved all the ladies' church hats.  (We used to call them "go to hell" hats.")

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What was even the point of Vernon? Everyone, including Pray, knew he wasn't going to give up his life and Pray said as much. He could've saved all that hot air. I loved the rest of the episode though, and I'm glad he made peace with who he needed to. I loved Billy Porter and Ledisi throwing down in that church! Just beautiful.

That being said, I'm good with this being Pray's swan song also. I just don't see what further can be done with the character--I don't need to or care to see him lying on his deathbed.

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6 hours ago, marceline said:

I share the joy at seeing the trifecta of 90s sitcom greatness.

YES. That was so great! (My father passed away recently. I started watching a lot of Sister, Sister on Netflix right after because it was nice to watch a show where nobody had real problems and what problems they did have were solved quickly. Jackee was better on that show than I remembered from watching it as a kid, so she has a special place in my heart. Also, Roger was a whole-ass creep.)

I loved when Pray's mother asked Pray about his God, and I thought his answer was beautiful. That was a big gesture for a person of her faith.

4 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I knew I'd seen him somewhere before, but I just couldn't remember the show, so thanks!

Norm Lewis is an accomplished Broadway actor in addition to his turn on Scandal. He was the first Black actor to play the title role in Phantom of the Opera.

Ledisi should be much more famous than she is - she blew the fucking roof off that church. I got into her years ago when "neo-soul" was everywhere.

I cried when Pray was talking about his final wishes, and then I laughed. "You tell [Elektra] that I said, from the grave ..."

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I liked the episode and I always love when Billy Porter gets to sing but, c’mon, if you’ve got both Billy Porter and Norm Lewis in an episode contrive some reason— no matter how ridiculous— so that they sing a duet.   It’s like Broadway Super-Hero Team Up was soooooo close!

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(edited)

Having lived through this era: F AIDS, F Reagan!!, F kaposi’s sarcoma, F all theOIs, and fuck Reagan again.

I started crying when he said “I’m dying” and I may never stop.

Edited by DrSparkles
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8 hours ago, marceline said:

I share the joy at seeing the trifecta of 90s sitcom greatness.

It's funny.  I guess it's just a generational thing.  I associate Jackee with 227, and the actress who played Pray's mother with Amen, which are really both 80's sitcoms.  

 

7 hours ago, Blakeston said:

This is the kind of sloppiness that could have been avoided so easily by adjusting the writing slightly. Just have her say that it's been five years since they last slept together, without giving her an absurdly late-in-life baby.

Yeah, Michelle Hurd is 54, and while she can play younger, she can't play that much younger.  I didn't like any of that storyline.     

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4 hours ago, DrSparkles said:

Having lived through this era: F AIDS, F Reagan!!, F kaposi’s sarcoma, F all theOIs, and fuck Reagan again.

 

And bless Dr. Fauci. My first memories of him are from the AIDS epidemic. That man is a true public servant.

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6 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

And bless Dr. Fauci. My first memories of him are from the AIDS epidemic. That man is a true public servant.

Yes. My friends dying are what got me into HIV research & I’ve known of him since ~1994. A real Public Health hero.

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OMG I am here for this amazing casting. Jackée, Thelma Frye, Aunt Viv, Monique Jeffries, and NORM LEWIS? My biggest disappointment was that we didn't get a Billy/Norm duet. What a wasted opportunity!

Ugh, seeing the way everyone in Pray's hometown treated him explained why he hadn't been back in 25 years. Between his boyfriend becoming a pastor and marrying a woman, his aunt telling him that he was a sinner for choosing to be gay, and his mother telling him that he should move on from being repeatedly RAPED as a child, no wonder he stayed away for so long.

I'm glad that Pray's mother admitted that what she did was wrong and asked him to forgive her, but all I could think about was how many times this story ended differently for people in real life.

As sweet as it was to hear Vernon eagerly offer to come to New York, I knew he wouldn't end up going. It felt cruel for him to get Pray's hopes even the tiniest bit that it might happen. Ebony, on the other hand, whew. I don't know how someone can be in such denial while so bluntly telling the truth. "I know you two were fucking in high school so can you please tell me how to make him want to sleep with me even though he is TOTALLY NOT GAY?"

Thank goodness that Aunt Jada was so kind to him from the beginning. Otherwise I would have been giving her some serious side eye when she offered to be his power of attorney. I hope that she keeps her word and follows his wishes to the letter.

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I couldn't watch this entire episode.  I loooved seeing jackee,  but I couldn't watch the child abuse that I knew was coming.  

I think the doc was....professional.  There wasn't any hope, no sugar coating and not a lot of hand holding. 

To me, the bedside manner left something to be desired, especially when you're basically taking away all hope and telling someone they have 6 months to live.  And not a pretty 6 months either.  

But, I think the show did a good job in writing the scene.  The doctor was probably a nice enough guy who developed a hard shell after giving bad news for years and years.  

He did call pray by his name, he did not wear some sort of protective gear or show any fear, which even some medical professionals did back in the day, and he wasn't cruel, he was just.....straightforward 

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This was a wrenching episode - I can't honestly say that I enjoyed it because I think it was too much truth in it.  I did dislike when Vernon was telling Pray that he loved him and was going to be there on that bus back to NY.   I was afraid that the show was really going to go there; thankfully it didn't.   

I agree with those who think that Pray should've given the POA to Blanca, so one has to hope that the aunt will do the right thing.  And I was relieved that Pray said that he didn't want a big sendoff of a funeral as my mind was going to a series finale that would look like the end of "Imitation of Life" (Lana Turner version), white horse drawn hearse, gospel singing, and all.  

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I agree that his current friends likely make the most sense for POA but I think his aunt made the argument that hospitals don't always respect a POA if challenged by a family member. 

I seem to recall that from the AIDS crisis era--that even if non-family members had a power of attorney, parents would swoop in and the hospital becomes afraid not to listen to them since the parents would be alive to sue whereas the patient would not be.  Or maybe I'm confusing events. 

I think the aunt's way of thinking is that, as a family member, she'd be more respected. 

If I thought this show wanted to go out with depressing drama, she'd screw him over, but I don't think this is where the show wants to go.  Or at least I hope it's not.

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If his other aunt (Latrice) had made the offer, I would have been a lot more suspicious of the POA but Jada was shown to be very warm and loving towards him the moment he arrived. She seemed like the only non-judgmental person he encountered the entire time he was at home, so I'm 90% sure she has no ulterior motives and will follow through with her promise. And now that his mom seems to have come around (as well as realizing how much she hurt him), I don't think she will try to pressure her sister into making any changes to Pray's requests. Fingers crossed because I don't want to see any deathbed drama.

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Between this episode and the last, I wonder if the next 2 episodes will also focus on the core 4 and then the final episode wraps things up with a time jump?  One episode focusing on Angel (and Papi), one on Blanca, and then the finale.

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If Pray Tell has become hardened to the funerals, I can just imagine the doctor’s burnout from having to tell people they are going to die day after day, for about 10 years at that point.

I didn’t take Blanca and the nurse’s reaction of “Screw that guy” literally. I figured they were mad and frustrated at the news and it was their way of commiserating with Pray. I feel like their reaction would have been the same no matter how he said it. 
 

 

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30 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

If Pray Tell has become hardened to the funerals, I can just imagine the doctor’s burnout from having to tell people they are going to die day after day, for about 10 years at that point.

I didn’t take Blanca and the nurse’s reaction of “Screw that guy” literally. I figured they were mad and frustrated at the news and it was their way of commiserating with Pray. I feel like their reaction would have been the same no matter how he said it. 
 

 

I agree.  It has to be human nature to want to fight for your friends life and to try to give them hope.  

I am glad that the series has explored a variety of frontline healthcare workers and their reactions.  I could not begin to imagine what coping mechanisms I'd develop if I had to give people the worst news all day, every day.  

Back in the day, there just wasn't any real hope.  Was Magic  Johnson diagnosed in 94?  I cannot remember. 

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3 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Was Magic  Johnson diagnosed in 94?  I cannot remember. 

He was diagnosed in 1991.  I remember because I was at work, someone made the announcement and we all just stopped working at our desks and at looked at each other.  Not much got done for the rest of the day.  Even the boss was stunned.

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1 minute ago, Crashcourse said:

He was diagnosed in 1991.  I remember because I was at work, someone made the announcement and we all just stopped working at our desks and at looked at each other.  Not much got done for the rest of the day.  Even the boss was stunned.

I'm sort of surprised it hasn't been at least mentioned.  

I'm from California, so I remember it being HUGE news. 

With the exception of Arthur ashe I don't remember another case at the time of a high profile, straight male contracting HIV.  

Sadly, I think for many people that kinda "legitimized" the disease.  Because it wasn't just gay men, or some poor straight women who got it from their closeted husbands.

You remember it and I clearly don't.  Was everyone convinced he was going to die?   

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5 minutes ago, RealReality said:

You remember it and I clearly don't.  Was everyone convinced he was going to die? 

I was living in DC, and it was huge news here also.  I don't know if everyone was convinced he was going to die, but I remember something about him taking a cocktail regimen of medicines.  I guess he still does?

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1 hour ago, Crashcourse said:

I was living in DC, and it was huge news here also.  I don't know if everyone was convinced he was going to die, but I remember something about him taking a cocktail regimen of medicines.  I guess he still does?

I remember that too.  

But, I remember, at the time, the side effects of the drug cocktail were supposedly awful and magic always looked healthy and happy (at least publicly).  

I'm not sure what he is on now either.  I'm sure it's it's cutting edge of whatever is available. 

According to alexa, magic is 61 years old and has had HIV for like 30 years!  How interesting to think that HIV went from a certain death sentence to more of chronic disease in the span of like 20 years.  

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One of the beauties of a POA is that it can easily be withdrawn and a new POA can be put in force.

I, too, wondered if the Magic announcement would be noted.  With each passing year, his relative good health was a great sign that the fight against HIV/AIDS was being won.  

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On 5/17/2021 at 12:26 AM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The sign on the church listed a pastor Dickson.  Not Jackson.  If only the rest of the series were as careful with detail/continuity.

 

But young Pray and young Norm Lewis were on the steps of the church.  Isn't it more likely that Dickson was the pastor when Pray was young?

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Pray had a line about how he doesn't think he would have AIDS if he hadn't been so mistreated by his community.

I feel like that line would have made more sense if Blanca had said it to her family. She's the one who contracted HIV when she was turning tricks to survive, because she'd been turned out onto the street by her mother.

Pray presumably contracted HIV when he was in a serious relationship with someone who had AIDS. (Pray was tested regularly, and tested positive while his lover was dying, if I recall correctly.)

I know, I know, it's a Ryan Murphy show, don't expect consistent backstories. But I liked that they had a character who apparently contracted HIV from someone they loved, rather than the stereotype of rampant promiscuity.

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Maybe he means that if he was accepted by his family/community, he would have never ended up in NYC which was the epicenter of the virus at that time. He probably thinks he and Vernon would have been able to be out and long term partners if the church wasn’t so judgmental.

I think Pittsburgh and even Vernon would have gotten too small for Pray eventually, but we all like to think we could have prevented things if we took another route.

 

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(edited)
On 5/17/2021 at 4:36 AM, Blakeston said:

The way he delivered the news was very robotic. It was the same tone someone might use when saying, "Your car's engine needs some work."

A doctor with a decent bedside manner would have at least said something like, "Have a seat. Your results have come back, and unfortunately, the news is not good."

Yes, it's reminiscent of last season when the person who told Ricky he was HIV positive was not only totally deadpan/indifferent, but then when he broke down said 'what, are you actually surprised?'  Extremely judgemental, insensitive thing for a likely straight person to say, let alone someone working in the field (I don't know what her official title was.)  You can at least fake some compassionate words. 

Edited by Glade
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18 hours ago, RealReality said:

According to alexa, magic is 61 years old and has had HIV for like 30 years!  How interesting to think that HIV went from a certain death sentence to more of chronic disease in the span of like 20 years.  

 

17 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I, too, wondered if the Magic announcement would be noted.  With each passing year, his relative good health was a great sign that the fight against HIV/AIDS was being won.  

Magic with his basketball money was always going to have an easier time than everyone else.  He has always been able to afford the necessary medications and as long as he is taking his pills on schedule he can keep his viral load down.  Pray, Blanca and Ricky are not so lucky.  They will have times when they have to choose between rent and their prescriptions.  Any of them surviving until 2020 is down to sheer luck, and Pray's luck is starting to run out.  

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(edited)
19 hours ago, RealReality said:

  How interesting to think that HIV went from a certain death sentence to more of chronic disease in the span of like 20 years.  

Indeed . . . https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/billy-porter-hiv-positive-diagnosis-1234954742/?fbclid=IwAR3e-UXKwS1OVT3pLvtTO1iwm2QvRtWHMLNi6XL6SV-3PrtTqGGBTVawvBE

They pulled from Billy's real life on this episode, including the molestation by his stepfather. I can only imagine the added level of emotion for him on this episode. Essentially, telling his real story through his character. Again I say: can we please just give him ALL the awards . . . 

Edited by SailorGirl
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Even if Pray isn't gone yet, this felt like his big goodbye and sawn song, and hot damn did Billy Porter make every second count. I think this was a much better Emmy Reel then the intervention episode, he got to show such a broad range of emotions, everything from his big show stopping number at the church to him telling his mother about his personal relationship with God, he was just such a massive presence throughout. The last few episodes have been great, even if, like with a lot of this show, you kind of have to take them as a one off to fully enjoy them. Less so then last episodes ret-cons, this seems to pretty well line up with what we know of Pray's backstory, but we'll have to see how much it affects future episodes. 

What an amazing cast, of course I was most excited to see national treasure Jackee, who I know has an extensive filmography but who will always be Lisa, worlds coolest mom, from Sister,Sister to me. I trust her with Pray's POA and I understand why she offered to take control of it. Pray would love to have Blanca or one of his New York family members take charge, but hospitals might be wary of letting a non relative or legal spouse make medical choices, but she can keep his mom or judgy aunt from making medical choices for him he wouldn't approve of. She seems supportive of him and never tried to judge him for being who he is, and also seems to relate to him being an outcast from the church, as she is apparently divorced and had a child out of wedlock. 

The story with Vernon seems a bit unnecessary, especially him promising Pray that he would leave with him and then not coming, which was obviously what was going to happen. Everything with getting closure with his family was a lot more interesting. 

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3 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Indeed . . . https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/billy-porter-hiv-positive-diagnosis-1234954742/?fbclid=IwAR3e-UXKwS1OVT3pLvtTO1iwm2QvRtWHMLNi6XL6SV-3PrtTqGGBTVawvBE

They pulled from Billy's real life on this episode, including the molestation by his stepfather. I can only imagine the added level of emotion for him on this episode. Essentially, telling his real story through his character. Again I say: can we please just give him ALL the awards . . . 

Here's the kicker: Billy didn't tell the cast and crew about his status until they were done filming the series.  So imagine being the writer thinking "I know Billy can pull this off" without KNOWING this was possibly Billy's biggest fear, even with the advances in the HIV cocktails.  

I'm glad that he got his emotional release.  

That said, the Vernon thing was fine until Vernon swore up and down he would show up and I was like "NO.  You're lying, stop it right now."  

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4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

Magic with his basketball money was always going to have an easier time than everyone else.  He has always been able to afford the necessary medications and as long as he is taking his pills on schedule he can keep his viral load down.  Pray, Blanca and Ricky are not so lucky.  They will have times when they have to choose between rent and their prescriptions.  Any of them surviving until 2020 is down to sheer luck, and Pray's luck is starting to run out.  

I totally agree with magic j. celebrity and wealth conferring a privilege that pray, Blanca and Ricky wouldn't have.  

But I feel like, more than any other high profile case, magics case changed the narrative. 

He wasn't someone on the edge of society or someone frowned upon by "respectable folks" but a straight, well spoken, handsome, sports legend.  

Arthur Ashe had died but I think that seemed like a fluke.  This was a guy who was having straight sex outside of his marriage and contracted the virus.  

It also seemed to coincide with the push to make the drugs more accessible and affordable.  And the disease went from this just horrible death sentence to something we could see someone living with.  

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