S01.E05: Truth

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

The shield itself will help a lot on that front, though Sam isn't going to be able to use it nearly as effectively on offense against tough opponents as Steve was. Redwing and those mini-missiles he uses as Falcon might help make up the gap.

Being the real Cap also brings a substantial amount of plot armor, so that will help. Plus Sam already had a lot as Falcon - flying around with minimal armor and no helmet should have gotten him killed (or at least a body full of scar tissue) a long time ago.

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

My issue with this view I have is that it doesn't take into count the US' position as a world leader.

I specifically did take that into account, and noted that the show isn't doing anything notable to explore that either.

Quote

The whole thing with the GRC is that they are trying to put back boarders and separate things to how they were pre Blip. Who do you think spearheaded that and gets the most out of that coming to fruition? The US government. Why? Because they had the most power.  Sam points out in the second episode "the people with the resources" are the ones who don't want revolutionaries, he points this out when Walker and Lemar state that their job is to keep things stable for the GRC. The only other country that has a patriotic superhero/symbol is Wakanda. 

The existence of the GRC accomplishes nothing that wouldn't be much simpler and cleaner with just the US government.

Also, the GRC itself is such a vague presence in the series despite being so central to the plot, it took almost to the end of the series to even clarify what the stakes are.

[tv echo]

Apparently the subtitles for this episode revealed the Sharon-Batroc connection...

The Falcon and the Winter Soldiers Subtitles Confirm Shady Sharon Carter Connection
By ADAM BARNHARDT - April 17, 2021 
https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/falcon-and-winter-soldier-sharon-carter-batroc-leaper-connected/ 

Quote

Towards the end of the episode, we see Carter speaking with someone on the phone hastily trying to get their attention. While it's not quite clear who Carter is talking to, the closed captioning reveals all. Shortly after Carter offers the caller double whatever their last price was, the captions signify it's "Batroc speaking in French."

Fast forward a little bit and we see Batroc (Georges St-Pierre) meeting up with Karli Morgenthau (Erin Kellyman) and the rest of the Flag Smashers as they look to stop the Global Reparation Council from passing a new law detrimental to their cause. It's here Batroc says he wants to kill Sam Wilson, apparently joining forces with the radical group.

And the dialogue in this episode revealed an off-screen scene between Bucky and Steve...

FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER REVEALS A MISSING SCENE FROM AVENGERS: ENDGAME
Jake Kleinman   April 16, 2021
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/falcon-winter-soldier-episode-5-avengers-endgame-steve-rogers 

Quote

At the time, fans wondered if Steve and Bucky had a heart-to-heart moment offscreen during Avengers: Endgame, possibly before Cap went back in time. But Marvel never provided an answer. Until now.
*  *  *
Bucky: When Steve told me what he was planning, I don't think we understood what it felt like for a Black man to be handed the shield. How could we? I owe you an apology. I'm sorry.
*  *  *
Of course, this raises a whole other question: what else did Steve and Bucky talk about? Their conversation must have happened before Captain America went back in time. Did Steve offer to take Bucky back with him? Did Bucky say no? If there was ever a time for a flashback scene, it's now, but considering Chris Evans’ graceful exit from the MCU, this little exchange between the Falcon and the Winter Soldier will have to do for now.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by tv echo

[Starry-Eyed]

7 minutes ago, tv echo said:

And the dialogue in this episode revealed an off-screen scene between Bucky and Steve...
 

Yeah, I noticed that. I've always believed since watching Endgame for the first time that Steve talked about what he was going to with Bucky before he left, but it was nice to get the confirmation, and the confirmation that choosing Sam was part of that conversation.

[Chyromaniac]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

The GRC also feels ill-suited to this story because it seems to be some sort of international governmental institution but this should be a story about how Sam relates to the US government/society, specifically

I kind of feel like the GRC angle is the weakest of the series as well.  It’s probably due to the pandemic, but they keep talking about refugees, but we don’t really see them.  Who/where are these people that need to be resettled?  It’s my understanding that they are supposed to be people returned from the snap- but I feel like we haven’t seen how that’s a problem.  And weren’t people returned to basically where they had been?  Then shouldn’t many, if not most, be roughly where they lived anyway?  The only people living like refugees are Karli and her crew.  Maybe I missed something, but I think it would have worked better if the mission of the GRC were more specifically defined.  Make it clear that it’s an organization designed to put people like her “back where they belong.”

Otherwise, in Far From Home it really felt like things just kind of went back to normal.  I get that it was a different film and tone - but it didn’t feel like there was a global repatriation crisis going on.  Maybe if Fury had rerouted the tour bus to Latvia...

9 hours ago, Afwife1992 said:

So Sam taking on the shield and assuming the mantle is right in keeping. CA should be the defender of the defenseless and all that good stuff. The mantle *should* be held by those who know suffering or discrimination. As Erskine said, a weak man knows the value of strength and knows compassion.

That’s something that I’ve always appreciated about Cap- his iconic “weapon” is a shield.  Not a hammer, or a laser, or a sword- it’s a big piece of metal designed to protect people.  Sure, they’ve managed to show it being used for offense in all sorts of improbable ways- but it’s still intended for defense, which should reflect the person wearing it.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Chyromaniac

[Kel Varnsen]

6 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

Who/where are these people that need to be resettled?  It’s my understanding that they are supposed to be people returned from the snap- but I feel like we haven’t seen how that’s a problem.  And weren’t people returned to basically where they had been?  Then shouldn’t many, if not most, be roughly where they lived anyway?  The only people living like refugees are Karli and her crew.  

It's the opposite the refugees aren't the people who came back but the people who were left. Like if you were someone who lived in Mexico near the border and your town got wiped out because of the snap. People in Texas might have invited you to move there and said forget about the border. Then when everyone came back they were like "go back to your country". But you haven't really lived there in 5 years and don't really have a life there. It would be the same thing in pretty much every hostile border that would have become a lot less hostile when half the people were gone.

 

[Sakura12]

So is Elaine the powerbroker or working for the powerbroker? Unless they are pulling a Wandavision and just casting a recognizable actor just for fun. I'm not as interested in theories and casting for this show like I was for Wandavision. So I was surprised to see her show up. 

Is Captain Aggro building a shield out of regular metal or does "Val" have stolen Vibranium that she gave him. 

I also hate that they are waiting to reveal Uncle Sam's new (which should so be his new hero name) Vibranium super suit for finale. 

The Flagsmashers are the ones that were left behind in the snap. They were probably like Clint and the only ones left in their families. With half the population gone people were more likely to allow others come in and help rebuild. Then when everyone was brought back they were all just kicked out because they weren't needed anymore. 

I would kind of like to see a show about those 5 years, they can do it in animated form if that's easier. But I am interested in seeing what the world was like. 

[Kel Varnsen]

14 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

So is Elaine the powerbroker or working for the powerbroker? Unless they are pulling a Wandavision and just casting a recognizable actor just for fun.

I think I would happily pay extra for Disney+ if they cast John O'Hurley as the Power Broker and the Countess was his associate.

[Chyromaniac]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It's the opposite the refugees aren't the people who came back but the people who were left. Like if you were someone who lived in Mexico near the border and your town got wiped out because of the snap. People in Texas might have invited you to move there and said forget about the border. Then when everyone came back they were like "go back to your country". But you haven't really lived there in 5 years and don't really have a life there. It would be the same thing in pretty much every hostile border that would have become a lot less hostile when half the people were gone.

 

I added a bit to reflect that possible angle- but I think it could have been put more clearly.  And again, it would be better if the show would tell us who the GRC is supposed to benefit.  Like, show us that it’s working on behalf of one percenters who are basically clearing squatters off their property.  Maybe I missed something, but right now the GRC vs Flag Smashers conflict just feels like generic authoritarians fighting generic anarchists.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

I added a bit to reflect that possible angle- but I think it could have been put more clearly.  And again, it would be better if the show would tell us who the GRC is supposed to benefit.  Like, show us that it’s working on behalf of one percenters who are basically clearing squatters off their property.  Maybe I missed something, but right now the GRC vs Flag Smashers conflict just feels like generic authoritarians fighting generic anarchists.

My take is that the GRC acts like they are trying to help people get back to their original homes for their benefit. But in reality they are working for the people who want foreigners out of their countries. I think that was what the vote is about, forcing people to go back to their original countries using military force if needed.

The GRC commercial in an earlier episode kind of said it all. The commercial was al nice about helping people and caring. Then it cut to reality where the GRC was a militarized police force.

[catrice2]

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

It's too bad these new shows have an aversion to referencing previous properties because (mild, obvious spoilers for the Netflix Luke Cage series)

  Hide contents

Isaiah's experience is very similar to what I recall Luke Cage going through. A little different in that Cage got his powers in jail but there is enough overlap that I think those two could have a great conversation.

I got such a kick out of Bucky's line about why he doesn't think to use the metal arm first.

Interesting to see that in order to be Captain America one does not necessarily have to have super-soldier serum. You just need to work out a lot. Not sure how that would work against powered opponents though. Humans are squishy.

Batman? You have to outsmart them. Hawkeye as well

[Danny Franks]

I made a joke on Reddit about this show ending up with Sam starting a shrimp boat business and Bucky being his first mate, I didn't think we'd get this close to seeing it come true.

There's something very corny about 'the healing of hard work and friendship' but whatever, these guys need it. Bucky especially, who seemed to shrug off that weight of the world he's been carrying on his shoulders, doing stuff that wasn't violent or dangerous.

Walker having to deal with abject failure and shame for the first time in his life was interesting to see. He seemed to be struggling with that as much as he was with the serum side effects. It's a well-documented phenomenon that these sort of alpha, 'things always come up roses' people really cannot handle that first instance where things go badly wrong. I can almost feel sorry for him.

Still, it was nice to see Bucky and Sam kick the shit out of him.

And I really liked the very real world consequences of a known US operative killing an unarmed combatant in public. The blurring of the lines between the military and superheroes, which is exactly what Walker was doing, ends up costing him. There is a redemption story available to him, if Marvel choose to write it. I hope they do, because Wyatt Russell is a great in this role. He could definitely be one of Zemo's Thunderbolts.

I wasn't expecting Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and I wasn't expecting the Contessa. Two really nice surprises. I'm a little disappointed she didn't call Walker a "fucking walking jizz-stain" or something. Too much Veep. Obviously, she's the Power Broker, which is better than it being Ross.

I still suspect that Sharon is working for her, though. Especially because I'm pretty sure it was Batroc who she sprung from a jail in Algeria.

I guess Karli and her people have reached the breaking point. This is a nice little look at radicalisation and how it happens, even to intelligent and otherwise sensible and apparently normal people.

It seems like Bucky shares some of Zemo's flair for the dramatic, with the empty gun and falling bullets gag. I'm glad he's still in good with the Wakandans, and Shuri (presumably) was happy enough to make him a set of vibranium wings for Sam.

Sam really will try to get just anyone else to take that shield, won't he? But Isaiah's story just gets sadder, and an ever more critical look at the politics of 20th century USA. Of course he couldn't be Captain America! Even in the 21st century there would be a very loud, very angry demographic ready to kick up a storm over something like that. The suggestion that, if Sam wants to carry that shield, he'll have to be Uncle Tom rather than Uncle Sam, is going to fester for him.

Cool to have it confirmed that Steve and Bucky talked in Endgame, and Bucky already knew what Steve was planning. I assumed it to be the case, but I'm glad it's now canon.

"You've got to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are," is good advice, but not easy to take for a man who hasn't known who he is for most of the last eighty years. I guess we're going to see him apologise to Yori in the finale. I hope that goes... not horribly.

[cambridgeguy]

3 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

My take is that the GRC acts like they are trying to help people get back to their original homes for their benefit. But in reality they are working for the people who want foreigners out of their countries. I think that was what the vote is about, forcing people to go back to their original countries using military force if needed.

It's also for the people who vanished and are now back to find that they've lost their homes, jobs, stuff, etc.  There are only so many places to live/work/etc., so you can imagine a lot of the dusted wanting all these strangers out so they can reclaim everything they lost purely due to random chance.  Well, random chance and Thor not taking the kill shot when he had the chance.

[Danny Franks]

16 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Reimagining this scene with Sam Jackson and Julia Louis Dreyfus:

 

A famous Comic Book Code casualty - According to Jim Steranko, the Comics Code Authority insisted Marvel replace the original final panel with an ambiguous image. And they chose the image of Fury's holstered gun (see how it's reproduced from the first panel), which was far more suggestive than what Steranko had drawn.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

So is Elaine the powerbroker or working for the powerbroker?

Wow. Almost wrote a post.going who's Elaine 🤦🏻 😂

12 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

My take is that the GRC acts like they are trying to help people get back to their original homes for their benefit. But in reality they are working for the people who want foreigners out of their countries. I think that was what the vote is about, forcing people to go back to their original countries using military force if needed.

The show and Marvel don't seem to be going too deep into this situation but, I think it's a lot more grey. We have a situation where 50% of the Planets population were dusted but, life went on for the remaining 50%. People moved into new/better apartments that maybe they couldn't get before the blip (Aunt May mentioned undusting in her apartment and there were people living there). Now we learn that in the 5 years people were welcomed into other countries, given a better life/opportunity because they needed human resources. Then the undusting happened and, through no fault of their own, these people are back and for them nothing has changed, they want their jobs, homes, lives back. 

What do you do?  Do you tell the undusted too bad, you were gone for 5 years you've been replaced? Do you tell the people that moved to fill spots left by the dusted well sorry they came back so your SOL go back to where you came from? 

It's a really interesting problem with no good answer. In either situation someone is getting treated unfairly.

[MochaJay]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

So is Elaine the powerbroker or working for the powerbroker? Unless they are pulling a Wandavision and just casting a recognizable actor just for fun. I'm not as interested in theories and casting for this show like I was for Wandavision. So I was surprised to see her show up. 

There's a lot of speculation that she's here to set up a future part of the franchise. She may or may not be in the finale, but we could see her working with Walker and other characters in later shows.

 

The Powerbroker has been set up throughout the season, so to pay off will have to either be someone significant or do something significant. The only character we know it could be is Sharon, but I'm hoping she is still more of the hero than that. So I've been thinking what the Powerbroker could do that would be so terrible, and in this show the sin worse than killing is medical experimentation upon captives. So I think the PB will take Karli to try to recreate the serum from her. Let's hope at least a couple of her followers make it out alive.

9 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I made a joke on Reddit about this show ending up with Sam starting a shrimp boat business and Bucky being his first mate, I didn't think we'd get this close to seeing it come true.

 

Heh, good shout. Maybe Bucky should retire there 

 

13 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Walker having to deal with abject failure and shame for the first time in his life was interesting to see. He seemed to be struggling with that as much as he was with the serum side effects. It's a well-documented phenomenon that these sort of alpha, 'things always come up roses' people really cannot handle that first instance where things go badly wrong. I can almost feel sorry for him.

 

I felt sorry for him from the moment they humanised him in the second episode. He's not a villain, he's a tragic character on a fall arc.

After the season is over we need an all-season thread to discuss character arcs and themes. 

20 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

It seems like Bucky shares some of Zemo's flair for the dramatic, with the empty gun and falling bullets gag. I'm glad he's still in good with the Wakandans, and Shuri (presumably) was happy enough to make him a set of vibranium wings for Sam.

 

"You've got to stop looking to other people to tell you who you are," is good advice, but not easy to take for a man who hasn't known who he is for most of the last eighty years. I guess we're going to see him apologise to Yori in the finale. I hope that goes... not horribly.

He's earnt the dramatics. He's trying not to be a killer (and is perhaps the only MCU hero that has really dwelt on whether they are OK with killing?) but he wouldn't be human if some part of him didn't want to pay back what what done to him, putting a gun to one of his abusers heads and not firing a bullet was taking back the power.

 

In this show Zemo and Bucky are the ones that understand the burden of doing terrible things (though they are separated because for Zemo it was a choice to reach his goals and Bucky had no choice). Others characters either haven't done such morally compromised actions, or haven't realised what the cost is. I really liked where they ended, and the understanding and forgiveness.

And I really want Zemo to start writing Bucky letters from prison where he teaches him chess, because he's realised Bucky is impetuous and doesn't tend to think strategically.

 

[LJones41]

Where is this series going?  Where is it going?  It's like watching the manifestation of too many cooks in the soup.  It's so messy.  Questions:

*Why wasn't Bucky arrested for arranging Zemo's escape from prison?  The idea that Dora Milaje kept his involvement a secret is a joke.  The moment Zemo had escaped, the U.N. authorities or any national intelligence service could have quickly surmised that Bucky was involved, due to his visit at the latter's prison.

*Why did the writers drag Zemo into this story in the first place?  He makes his escape at the end of one episode and is quickly arrested in the following one?  What was the purpose of his presence?

*Was Zemo merely brought into this series so the Dora Milaje could make their appearance . . . allowing Wakanda to provide funds for the Wilsons' business?  Was that it?

*Why haven't the U.S. authorities gone after Bucky for breaking his parole . . . again?

Why would John Walker appear at his court-martial with a day's growth beard?  I've never heard of that in military circles.

*Why is it necessary for Sam Wilson to become the new Captain America?  What was wrong with him being the Falcon?

*Why did Bucky state that Sam had supported Steve's decision to reject the Sokovia Accords?  Does this mean he saw Sam as nothing more than a mere sidekick?  Why didn't Sam correct him and reveal that he was the first Avenger to reject the Accords?

*Why didn't the Flag Smashers go after Zemo for his attempt to murder Karli?

*Who is the main villain in this story?  The Flag Smashers?  The Power Broker?  Who?  We're down to one last episode and I still don't know who the main villain will be.

 

[silverstream]

10 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

The sister absolutely didn't believe Walker at all. And as someone else pointed out, there is probably video floating around of the Flag Smasher saying it wasn't him, and if anyone from Lemar's family may be aware of that it's his younger sister. There was a bit of "why did he die and you survive" in her look as he was saying he'd always be there for them too.

I don't know why Lemar's family wouldn't be aware of the video - we know the Flag Smasher isn't lying, but the family has no reason to believe a random terrorist who as far as they are concerned might be lying in order to try and save himself over Walker, whom they have known for years. (Plus, since they're apparently fine with Walker killing the guy in general as long as he's the one who did the deed, it's entirely possibly they'd be only marginally less fine with it if they knew the guy didn't "pull the trigger" himself but helped bring about the events of their son's death all the same.)

Count me in the group of people who think there's definitely something being set up with Lemar's sister.

Edited April 17, 2021 by silverstream

[Check Sanity]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

I specifically did take that into account, and noted that the show isn't doing anything notable to explore that either.

The existence of the GRC accomplishes nothing that wouldn't be much simpler and cleaner with just the US government.

Also, the GRC itself is such a vague presence in the series despite being so central to the plot, it took almost to the end of the series to even clarify what the stakes are.

They sort of touched on it a couple times when Walker tried pushing his "I'm Captain America" while in other countries and having people not care (spitting in his face) or straight up say that means nothing (Sam in Zemo's apartment, then followed by Ayo's statement pre fight). 

Except the GRC isn't only the US, there are other nations that had a lot of power and would have interest in rebuilding borders. Plus anyone in any high position of power would likely want that back. I get what you're saying writing wise, except the aftermath of the Blip is a giant mess. Simplifying it in the storytelling would have erased just how much grey area there is. Which is also one of themes of this series, most people fall somewhere in the grey area. Not everyone knows who they are as well as Sam does. 

Though explaining the harms of the GRC outside of the point of view of the Flag Smashers would have been nice. 

 

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, Check Sanity said:

Except the GRC isn't only the US, there are other nations that had a lot of power and would have interest in rebuilding borders.

It was the show itself that introduced the whole confusing border thing, though, when that would also have been much cleaner if it was just introduced at the outset that the US was dealing with the question of what to do with foreign workers who had moved there after the Snap.

[Check Sanity]

7 minutes ago, silverstream said:

I don't know why Lemar's family wouldn't be aware of the video - we know the Flag Smasher isn't lying, but the family has no reason to believe a random terrorist who as far as they are concerned might be lying in order to try and save himself over Walker, whom they have known for years. (Plus, since they're apparently fine with Walker killing the guy in general as long as he's the one who did the deed, it's entirely possibly they'd be only marginally less fine with it if they knew the guy didn't "pull the trigger" himself but helped bring about the events of their son's death all the same.)

Count me in the group of people who think there's definitely something being set up with Lemar's sister.

I don't think the parents would want to watch much footage considering how traumatized they'd be in losing their son. The mother was talking, but it doesn't mean the rest of the family agrees with her. From the look on the sister's face, it didn't seem she did. She also may have a different point of view on her brother's friend. Lemar did mention Walkers history of responding with his fists and not being able to do that as Captain America when Walker was first introduced. 
I do wonder if the sister was in support of the Flag Smashers considering how widespread they are. Though I don't think the show has the time to go there. 

[ursula]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's equally possible that Walker is straight up crazy/in denial. He told Sam and Bucky that Nico killed Lemar when he knew (or should have known) that they knew he did not. It's possible that he was trying to get them to buy into the lie or at least to see if they might. It's also possible in his mental state he had confused what the case was.

 

6 minutes ago, Check Sanity said:

I don't think the parents would want to watch much footage considering how traumatized they'd be in losing their son. The mother was talking, but it doesn't mean the rest of the family agrees with her. From the look on the sister's face, it didn't seem she did.

Different take here... I don't think it matters that Nico wasn't the hand that pulled the trigger, in the metaphorical sense. All the Flag Smashers wanted to kill Walker, and they used Lemar as bait. That Nico wasn't the specific person that murdered Lemar is inconsequential. All the Flag Smashers are guilty of Lemar's death.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It was the show itself that introduced the whole confusing border thing, though, when that would also have been much cleaner if it was just introduced at the outset that the US was dealing with the question of what to do with foreign workers who had moved there after the Snap.

It really would not have been cleaner only focusing on the US.  The US is too large to see the impact of those resettlement camps.  Any excess population brought into the US would have been dispersed throughout the country.   Then when half of America shows back up, there is room for them, or at least more room than the densely populated cities in Europe or Asia.  Europe has more cities that would have needed immigrants as well as more fungible borders.  Also, the immigrants into the US would most likely be coming up from Central and South America adding in another racial component that the writers would then have to deal with. 

[Silver-hyren]

19 hours ago, Cerulean said:

I’m very confused by the physics of the shield. It can wedge itself into a tree, but bounce off some padding. And I get that Bucky can catch it with his metal hand (not his dominant hand- a nice little moment) but how can Sam catch it without breaking something?

 

Cap's shield is like Xena's chakram: it's only razor sharp/deadly when the writers need it to be for dramatic effect.

[GHScorpiosRule]

43 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

 

Why would John Walker appear at his court-martial with a day's growth beard?  I've never heard of that in military circles.

That wasn’t a court martial. The asshole Senator even told Walker it was due to his previous service that they weren’t going to court martial him-just strip him of his medals and take away his benefits. It was weird that the hearing stated he would be given a “non honorable” discharge. Why not just say dishonorable?

I only have one thing to say: “Gone” doesn’t always mean dead. Steve probably went back to the timeline he created when he didn’t return, but went to Peggy.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

 

The Flagsmashers are the ones that were left behind in the snap. They were probably like Clint and the only ones left in their families. With half the population gone people were more likely to allow others come in and help rebuild. Then when everyone was brought back they were all just kicked out because they weren't needed anymore. 

 

I didn’t think they were like Clint who lost everyone in the snap but people who had nothing to lose in the snap. Those who were already on their own and nothing to gain when everyone came back. 

4 hours ago, LJones41 said:

*Why wasn't Bucky arrested for arranging Zemo's escape from prison?  The idea that Dora Milaje kept his involvement a secret is a joke.  The moment Zemo had escaped, the U.N. authorities or any national intelligence service could have quickly surmised that Bucky was involved, due to his visit at the latter's prison.

Quickly surmising based on circumstances isn’t proof. They need actual evidence to prove Bucky helped him escape. The only person who could prove he helped is Zemo and he doesn’t seem inclined to do that. The only ones who can say Bucky was working with Zemo are either dead, discredited or also unlikely to say anything. The Dora Milaje are not inclined to deal with any investigation at all. 

4 hours ago, LJones41 said:

*Why haven't the U.S. authorities gone after Bucky for breaking his parole . . . again?

Bucky’s not on parole. He was pardoned. He was required to go to therapy but Walker changed that. Bucky is free and clear.

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That wasn’t a court martial. The asshole Senator even told Walker it was due to his previous service that they weren’t going to court martial him-just strip him of his medals and take away his benefits. It was weird that the hearing stated he would be given a “non honorable” discharge. Why not just say dishonorable?

“Dishonorable” and “Other Than Honorable” are two separate categories. Dishonorable discharge happens with a court martial.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Check Sanity said:

Except the GRC isn't only the US, there are other nations that had a lot of power and would have interest in rebuilding borders.

Marvel has never been great at explaining international organizations though. Shield for example is a US security agency but they also answer to the World Security Council?

[DavidJSnyder]

59 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

I only have one thing to say: “Gone” doesn’t always mean dead. Steve probably went back to the timeline he created when he didn’t return, but went to Peggy.

Or he's on the Moon.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It really would not have been cleaner only focusing on the US.  The US is too large to see the impact of those resettlement camps.  

Given the fraught history of migration in the US, that seems doubtful.

Moreover, the US government in the MCU spearheading this effort, so clearly the writers don’t think so.

[Spartan Girl]

26 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

Or he's on the Moon.

I wish lol.

I just thought of something: if the Contessa was telling the truth about the shield never being government property...then Sharon didn’t commit a felony by stealing it back for the gang in CW. But oh yeah: Ross and the other government dicks are corrupt assholes.

[Kel Varnsen]

4 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I wish lol.

I just thought of something: if the Contessa was telling the truth about the shield never being government property...then Sharon didn’t commit a felony by stealing it back for the gang in CW. But oh yeah: Ross and the other government dicks are corrupt assholes.

Sure she did. Even if it wasn't government property it was still evidence of a crime. You're not supposed to steal evidence. 

[MochaJay]

1 hour ago, LJones41 said:

*Why did the writers drag Zemo into this story in the first place?  He makes his escape at the end of one episode and is quickly arrested in the following one?  What was the purpose of his presence?

 

Zemo served a number of functions:-

Plotwise: Sam and Bucky chasing down leads in Episodes 2 & 3 made them active protagonists vs spending the whole series waiting for leads to come knocking. Zemo was their lead.

Storywise: Sam's story is about becoming a symbol of something larger than himself. Bucky's story is about healing from his trauma. Zemo put a known face to that trauma, rather than taking in abstract about dead Hydra agents. There was resolution in this episode where Bucky got to hold a gun to the head of an abuser and not take revenge, which is much more significant than a general distaste for killing people.

Themewise: He was able to articulate themes and offer opposing philosophies, especially to those presented by Karli.

Character-wise: He's a 'villain', in that he is morally compromised, and unchanging in his beliefs. He offered a contrast and yardstick for us to examine other characters that are on growth arcs (Bucky, Sam) or fall arcs (Karli, Walker).

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Sure she did. Even if it wasn't government property it was still evidence of a crime. You're not supposed to steal evidence. 

I thought the shield was just confiscated when Steve and Sam were arrested during Civil War, because they took the wings too. "Bird costume?! Come on."

[wmdekooning]

Quote

And speaking of Wakanda, really glad Bucky lead the Dora Milaje to Zemo, putting things right there even if Ayo told him he might not want to visit there for a while. Her calling him White Wolf and agreeing to have Sam's new suit made tells me they're okay.

Bast d*** you James, asking for favours now!

Quote

Loved the scenes with Sam, Bucky and the community fixing the boat.

I loved that two of the men who were helping out were called Tommie and Carlos.

Quote

And I think they’ve confirmed that Steve died of old age.

I don't recall any confirmation of Steve Rogers' death, just that he was "gone".

Quote

This heart-to-heart conversation between Bucky and Sam is pivotal to this series, I think.

I was thinking as Bucky walked away  they ought to have played the sad "Bruce Banner tinkly piano as he walks to the next town for adventures" theme...

Quote

Even the Wakandans, who clearly sympathized with him had the failsafe put in his arm in case he reverted back.

Someone on one of the reaction videos surmised that while Bucky was still under the Winter Soldier conditioning he was working for the Wakanda secret police, the Hatut Zeraze  responsible for imprisoning, torturing, and exterminating the domestic and external political enemies of Wakanda...

[kay1864]

How does a civilian Senator get to decide that a military officer doesn’t get a court martial? And how does that officer even evade court-martial for murder? No Captain America gets to be judge, jury, and executioner.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

How does a civilian Senator get to decide that a military officer doesn’t get a court martial? And how does that officer even evade court-martial for murder? No Captain America gets to be judge, jury, and executioner.

IMO, the people who decided that Walker should be Captain America thought (or hoped, depending on your opinion of him) that they could put the matter to bed quietly, avoid more scandal and media coverage than there already had been. They were counting on him to be rational enough to know that he'd dodged a bullet in not being sentenced to a lengthy prison term, much less a court martial and maybe having those medals that were such a big deal taken away from him in addition to the shield. I don't even think anyone outside of Bucky and Sam know that he took the last vial of serum, since now that Zemo's out of the picture that plot line seems to have been resolved.

[Ohiopirate02]

31 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

IMO, the people who decided that Walker should be Captain America thought (or hoped, depending on your opinion of him) that they could put the matter to bed quietly, avoid more scandal and media coverage than there already had been. They were counting on him to be rational enough to know that he'd dodged a bullet in not being sentenced to a lengthy prison term, much less a court martial and maybe having those medals that were such a big deal taken away from him in addition to the shield. I don't even think anyone outside of Bucky and Sam know that he took the last vial of serum, since now that Zemo's out of the picture that plot line seems to have been resolved.

That hearing was a CYA moment for the American government.   They want to punish Walker publicly to show their allies they are taking this seriously while doing everything possible not to expose themselves any further.   They also want to put the matter of John Walker, Captain America  to bed ASAP.  

[catrice2]

3 hours ago, MochaJay said:

Zemo served a number of functions:-

Plotwise: Sam and Bucky chasing down leads in Episodes 2 & 3 made them active protagonists vs spending the whole series waiting for leads to come knocking. Zemo was their lead.

Storywise: Sam's story is about becoming a symbol of something larger than himself. Bucky's story is about healing from his trauma. Zemo put a known face to that trauma, rather than taking in abstract about dead Hydra agents. There was resolution in this episode where Bucky got to hold a gun to the head of an abuser and not take revenge, which is much more significant than a general distaste for killing people.

Themewise: He was able to articulate themes and offer opposing philosophies, especially to those presented by Karli.

Character-wise: He's a 'villain', in that he is morally compromised, and unchanging in his beliefs. He offered a contrast and yardstick for us to examine other characters that are on growth arcs (Bucky, Sam) or fall arcs (Karli, Walker).

Also he was used to eliminate the man making the serums so that Bucky or Sam did not have to do it....

5 hours ago, LJones41 said:

Where is this series going?  Where is it going?  It's like watching the manifestation of too many cooks in the soup.  It's so messy.  Questions:

*Why wasn't Bucky arrested for arranging Zemo's escape from prison?  The idea that Dora Milaje kept his involvement a secret is a joke.  The moment Zemo had escaped, the U.N. authorities or any national intelligence service could have quickly surmised that Bucky was involved, due to his visit at the latter's prison.

*Why did the writers drag Zemo into this story in the first place?  He makes his escape at the end of one episode and is quickly arrested in the following one?  What was the purpose of his presence?

*Was Zemo merely brought into this series so the Dora Milaje could make their appearance . . . allowing Wakanda to provide funds for the Wilsons' business?  Was that it?

*Why haven't the U.S. authorities gone after Bucky for breaking his parole . . . again?

Why would John Walker appear at his court-martial with a day's growth beard?  I've never heard of that in military circles.

*Why is it necessary for Sam Wilson to become the new Captain America?  What was wrong with him being the Falcon?

*Why did Bucky state that Sam had supported Steve's decision to reject the Sokovia Accords?  Does this mean he saw Sam as nothing more than a mere sidekick?  Why didn't Sam correct him and reveal that he was the first Avenger to reject the Accords?

*Why didn't the Flag Smashers go after Zemo for his attempt to murder Karli?

*Who is the main villain in this story?  The Flag Smashers?  The Power Broker?  Who?  We're down to one last episode and I still don't know who the main villain will be.

Many of these questions have been answered in the show already, some are yet to be revealed and others are left up to interpretation..

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I just thought of something: if the Contessa was telling the truth about the shield never being government property...then Sharon didn’t commit a felony by stealing it back for the gang in CW. But oh yeah: Ross and the other government dicks are corrupt assholes.

first, I think there's a pretty big "if" when we talk about if the Contessa was telling the truth. 

This version of her seems to be extra shady.

But regardless of who is the proper owner of the shield (and the wings), the crimes that Sharon was arguably guilty of include:

Aiding and abetting international fugitives from justice

Treason

Espionage against the U.S. 

Obstruction of justice

Conspiracy

Official misconduct

6 hours ago, ursula said:

 

Different take here... I don't think it matters that Nico wasn't the hand that pulled the trigger, in the metaphorical sense. All the Flag Smashers wanted to kill Walker, and they used Lemar as bait. That Nico wasn't the specific person that murdered Lemar is inconsequential. All the Flag Smashers are guilty of Lemar's death.

Nico and the Flag Smashers are morally and legally guilty of Lemar's death. But Walker portrayed things to Bucky/Sam and the Hoskins family as though Nico personally killed Lemar, and that is obviously not the case. Whether Walker has snapped and thinks that it is the case, is deliberately lying to try to convince others that his killing of Nico was justified, or has something else going on is an open question. 

7 hours ago, LJones41 said:

Where is this series going?  Where is it going?  It's like watching the manifestation of too many cooks in the soup.  It's so messy.  Questions:

*Why wasn't Bucky arrested for arranging Zemo's escape from prison?  The idea that Dora Milaje kept his involvement a secret is a joke.  The moment Zemo had escaped, the U.N. authorities or any national intelligence service could have quickly surmised that Bucky was involved, due to his visit at the latter's prison.

*Why did the writers drag Zemo into this story in the first place?  He makes his escape at the end of one episode and is quickly arrested in the following one?  What was the purpose of his presence?

*Was Zemo merely brought into this series so the Dora Milaje could make their appearance . . . allowing Wakanda to provide funds for the Wilsons' business?  Was that it?

*Why haven't the U.S. authorities gone after Bucky for breaking his parole . . . again?

Why would John Walker appear at his court-martial with a day's growth beard?  I've never heard of that in military circles.

*Why is it necessary for Sam Wilson to become the new Captain America?  What was wrong with him being the Falcon?

*Why did Bucky state that Sam had supported Steve's decision to reject the Sokovia Accords?  Does this mean he saw Sam as nothing more than a mere sidekick?  Why didn't Sam correct him and reveal that he was the first Avenger to reject the Accords?

*Why didn't the Flag Smashers go after Zemo for his attempt to murder Karli?

*Who is the main villain in this story?  The Flag Smashers?  The Power Broker?  Who?  We're down to one last episode and I still don't know who the main villain will be.

Putting aside for the moment that the officials would have to catch Bucky first, there's an issue of proof. The circumstantial evidence of Bucky causing the breakout hasn't left too many fingerprints. The main evidence would be that Bucky visited Zemo the day of Zemo's escape, and Zemo and Bucky working together after the escape. The fact of Bucky visiting the same day does not mean that Bucky helped in the escape, any more than, say, Joker deciding to escape Arkham after a Batman visit. It could just mean that Zemo got riled up by the visit and decided to escape, or it could just be pure coincidence. Not too many other people know about the evidence of Bucky and Zemo working together after the escape: Zemo (not talking), Walker (chose to try to use Bucky and the rest to find the Flag Smashers rather than attempt to rat Bucky out initially, and now discredited), Hoskins (followed Walker's lead, and now dead), Sharon (claims to be on the run, also has some residual fondness for Bucky and Sam), the DM (who again have fondness for Bucky and were willing to cut him slack), and various Madripoor villains (not the type who would turn Bucky in to Western authorities because they'd prefer to kill him and collect the 1K Bitcoin reward offered.)

Zemo's presence in the story helped on a number of fronts. On a mechanical level, it gave Our Heroes the means to travel internationally in pursuit of the SSS and the Flag Smashers and added conflict/drama/action. It afforded character and philosophical moments, as Sam and Bucky (and by extension, we the audience) both got to debate and contemplate issues about super powers and Steve Rogers, Bucky's attempts to make amends, Sam's questioning about whether he can become a symbol. There were even bits of comic relief that Zemo's presence added.

The writers could have brought the DM into the story without Zemo being involved if they wanted to. Also, the Wakandans didn't provide funds for the Wilsons' business. That was, as we saw, Sam drumming up community support to fix the boat and get it back on its feet. Yes, it is somewhat of a plothole, because at least hypothetically, Sam could have sent T'Challa, Pepper, Rhodey or others a text and gotten a gift/loan of however much was needed to fix the boat. But oh well.

Bucky was on a pardon, not parole. We don't know what all the terms of the pardon were other than he was supposed to have regular therapy sessions. So we don't know necessarily that he has violated the terms of his pardon further. We do know that Walker pulled strings to even make the regular therapy sessions not something that Bucky was going to have to go through because he considered Bucky too important an asset to be tied up with that. But even assuming for argument's sake that Bucky's actions in some way violated his pardon, there really has not been that much time that has passed. It was somewhat of a fluke that he was caught the first time.

As others have said, the hearing was not a court martial. But anyway, considering Walker is at least somewhat crazy, it's amazing that he put himself together enough to put on his dress uniform.

It is not "necessary" per se for Sam to become Captain America. But Steve's actions in Endgame left a void. Steve wanted Sam to fill it. Sam has been doing good work as Falcon and could continue to do so. But as Falcon, he is not the living legend that Steve was, or a singular force to inspire people, bring them together and give them hope, like Steve did. He could be all those things, at least hypothetically, if he becomes the new Captain America. But self-doubt and the issues about race (among other possible things) made him initially decline. Over the course of the series, he has both increased in confidence that he can fill Cap's shoes and he has seen the possible ramifications if he lets others dictate who might attempt to replace him. And so, it looks like he is ready to take up the mantle.

There are various ways that one can look at Bucky's statement. Bucky may have oversimplified things. Falcon was the first to speak up about issues with the accords, but it is certainly possible that he would have gone along with them if Cap had gone along with them. It is also possible that Bucky did/does see Sam as less than Steve, which makes sense because Bucky sees Steve as a god. In any event, Bucky was obviously not present for the discussions about the Sokovia Accords, so he probably would not know the details of Sam being the first to speak out.  

There has not been a ton of time for the Flag Smashers to go after Zemo, nor does it seem like the Flag Smashers are the sort of organization that are particularly well equipped to go after Zemo. Attacking stationary government facilities that are obvious targets is one thing. Trying to track down an elusive fugitive with resources is another -- especially if one factors in that there's not necessarily any reason that Karli would even recognize who Zemo is. She only saw him briefly and has no particular reason to have known Zemo from his involvement in Civil War or his recent escape. There's every possibility that there would not be that much information about either available to the general public.

There doesn't need to be "a" main villain or antagonist for a story to be successful. In this case, Sam and Bucky are seemingly going to find themselves caught between (among possible others) Karli and the five remaining Super Soldier Flag Smashers, John Walker, Batroc, and possibly the Power Broker's men. They are also going to find themselves at odds with systems: the government that is going to want to repossess the shield, at least one set of shady spies if not two.

7 hours ago, silverstream said:

I don't know why Lemar's family wouldn't be aware of the video - we know the Flag Smasher isn't lying, but the family has no reason to believe a random terrorist who as far as they are concerned might be lying in order to try and save himself over Walker, whom they have known for years. (Plus, since they're apparently fine with Walker killing the guy in general as long as he's the one who did the deed, it's entirely possibly they'd be only marginally less fine with it if they knew the guy didn't "pull the trigger" himself but helped bring about the events of their son's death all the same.)

Count me in the group of people who think there's definitely something being set up with Lemar's sister.

I could see the Hoskins family doing everything from consciously shutting out all the information about Lemar's last day because it was too painful to voraciously consuming everything because they want to have every detail.

Depending on the nature of the video and how much it contained, I would think that seeing essentially want happened would at least engender some question as to whether the terrorist was telling the truth about what happened. I suspect that the Hoskins family would be fine with every one of the Flag Smashers being brutally killed in retaliation. They'd probably be less fine about Walker hiding the truth from them. 

3 hours ago, kay1864 said:

How does a civilian Senator get to decide that a military officer doesn’t get a court martial? And how does that officer even evade court-martial for murder? No Captain America gets to be judge, jury, and executioner.

I imagine that there is some clout that civilian leaders can probably negotiate with military leaders in the real world. Even though the military (presumably) officially has the final say about a court martial, I would imagine that it would not be too difficult to persuade the military powers that be that putting Captain America on trial is not in the military's best interest, or the country's. 

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

IMO, the people who decided that Walker should be Captain America thought (or hoped, depending on your opinion of him) that they could put the matter to bed quietly, avoid more scandal and media coverage than there already had been. They were counting on him to be rational enough to know that he'd dodged a bullet in not being sentenced to a lengthy prison term, much less a court martial and maybe having those medals that were such a big deal taken away from him in addition to the shield. I don't even think anyone outside of Bucky and Sam know that he took the last vial of serum, since now that Zemo's out of the picture that plot line seems to have been resolved.

Well, the remaining top Flag Smashers know that Walker has been juiced because he displayed super-soldier level strength in that fight, and Val explicitly knows, plus whoever she either told or got the information from.

I would think that some people in the government must suspect, given the way he caved Nico's torso in. And more likely than not, Walker had to do some sort of debrief where he may or may not have mentioned it. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Afwife1992]

12 hours ago, Starry-Eyed said:

Yeah, I noticed that. I've always believed since watching Endgame for the first time that Steve talked about what he was going to with Bucky before he left, but it was nice to get the confirmation, and the confirmation that choosing Sam was part of that conversation.

Yeah, we'd always been left to imagine it and fill in the blanks based on expressions, etc. I never for a moment thought Steve didn't tell Bucky everything. Bucky a) obviously knew Steve wasn't coming back (at least not young) because he said he'd miss him even though he was only supposed to be gone 5 seconds and b) he wasn't surprised to see Steve and gave a nod to Sam to go talk to him first as well as acknowledged him getting the shield. Nothing was a surprise. Head-canon wise, I always thought Steve talked about what it meant for Bucky. There's still debate about whether he created a time loop (where he was *always* the husband) which the writers say and whether there was a new timeline (which the directors say). If it was the former, he couldn't change the past to save Bucky (and that would be quite a discussion) as demonstrated by 'we can't just go kill baby Thanos' but if it was a new timeline, I could see him telling Bucky he would save *that* version of him and give him the life he could've had. Also, if it was a time loop, he could've offered to take Bucky back and Bucky said no feeling he had so much to atone for that he couldn't just take the Mulligan. I think, given that they just say Steve is 'gone' and not 'dead' or 'back to his own timeline' that Marvel doesn't want to definitely say (at least not now) so we won't see, or hear, whatever the full discussion was. We may just get tidbits like Bucky's brief remark to Sam and have to fill in the blanks. 

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I wish lol.

I just thought of something: if the Contessa was telling the truth about the shield never being government property...then Sharon didn’t commit a felony by stealing it back for the gang in CW. But oh yeah: Ross and the other government dicks are corrupt assholes.

The shield thing is so bogus. Howard created the shield using the vibranium he himself got from somewhere (likely the black market) based on little tidbits in canon. He was also an independent contractor basically doing what *he* wanted for the military and they were just lucky to have him. Then the shield was frozen with Steve for all those decades. It was seemingly immediately returned to him when he wanted it. Then in CW, he gives it back to Tony who holds on to it until he returns it in Endgame. Steve then bequeaths it to Sam and it's *Sam* who gives it to the museum. They didn't requisition it. Then the government swooped in and nabbed it. Nor did Sam show any compunction about just walking away with it after walker imploded and is toting it around deciding what *he* is going to do with it. No one is beating down his door. The problem with Sharon is that she also stole back Falcon's wings in CW and those are government property--or at least the proprietary technology even if Tony upgraded them. They were invented when Sam was a pararescueman. And that's on top of helping them escape and giving the classified intel in the first place. But, yeah, she should definitely be off the hook for the shield IMO. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

I added a bit to reflect that possible angle- but I think it could have been put more clearly.  And again, it would be better if the show would tell us who the GRC is supposed to benefit.  Like, show us that it’s working on behalf of one percenters who are basically clearing squatters off their property.  Maybe I missed something, but right now the GRC vs Flag Smashers conflict just feels like generic authoritarians fighting generic anarchists.

It's interesting. The Marvel Netflix series generally felt like they had at least an episode or two worth of padding in the 10-13 episodes. This show and WandaVision easily could have had an extra episode or two more. 

I would have loved for them to do more to establish who the GRC is, what issues it has been grappling with, more about what the Flag Smashers' beef is with how the GRC is operating and what happened during the Blip. 

But there's only so much that can be put in 6 episodes and given that it's Marvel, it is going to prioritize fight scenes, plot points and character moments over world building. 

Just showing a GRC commercial and having Karli monologue that the GRC are evil is going to have to do. 

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, Afwife1992 said:

There's still debate about whether he created a time loop (where he was *always* the husband) which the writers say and whether there was a new timeline (which the directors say). 

I think Cap has to have created a new timeline, otherwise the shield everyone has been talking about and fighting over in this show would be one with a giant chunk missing from it. Because if he was always Peggy's husband how did he get a new shield made from the rarest material on earth?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, Afwife1992 said:

The shield thing is so bogus. Howard created the shield using the vibranium he himself got from somewhere (likely the black market) based on little tidbits in canon. He was also an independent contractor basically doing what *he* wanted for the military and they were just lucky to have him. Then the shield was frozen with Steve for all those decades. It was seemingly immediately returned to him when he wanted it. Then in CW, he gives it back to Tony who holds on to it until he returns it in Endgame. Steve then bequeaths it to Sam and it's *Sam* who gives it to the museum. They didn't requisition it. Then the government swooped in and nabbed it. Nor did Sam show any compunction about just walking away with it after walker imploded and is toting it around deciding what *he* is going to do with it. No one is beating down his door. The problem with Sharon is that she also stole back Falcon's wings in CW and those are government property--or at least the proprietary technology even if Tony upgraded them. They were invented when Sam was a pararescueman. And that's on top of helping them escape and giving the classified intel in the first place. But, yeah, she should definitely be off the hook for the shield IMO. 

A bit off-topic but related: what about SWORD? I'm sure that with everything else that still needs to be wrapped up here (and providing there won't be a second season) there's no time to get into it, but SWORD

Spoiler

got hold of Vision's body in some undisclosed way, and we still don't have the answer to that

so wouldn't *they* have taken an interest in the vibranium shield? If it's such a big deal that literally everyone wants to keep it, it seems like a shady operation like that would have been trying to stick their hands in as well.

 

30 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 Just showing a GRC commercial and having Karli monologue that the GRC are evil is going to have to do. 

I said upthread that we still don't really know who Karli is. Not just now, but before and during the Snap, and the opportunities that she was given and lost when Thanos' plan was undone. How bad must her life have been if she really wants things the way they were for those five years? They've been rightly focused on Bucky and Sam, with a large helping of John unraveling and Zemo added in for general haughtiness and dancing like a dork, but they really could have given Karli more time to breathe as a character.

*Spoiler tagging just in case

[bettername2come]

This was my favorite ep. The fight, John Walker being awful but nuanced (I like his wife and their relationship, nothing better happen to her), the training montage, the boat fixing, bonding between Sam and Bucky, Sam saying don't flirt with my sister which immediately makes me ship Bucky/Sarah, Carl Lumbly, and the prospect of Captain America flying like a majestic eagle. I enjoyed very much. 

[swanpride]

If I understand the whole thing with the flag smashers correctly, it is not that there weren't any borders after the Snap, but because so many people were suddenly missing, refugees were more welcome to fill the gabs which were left in the workforce. But now where all countries have their own "refugees" (meaning people who came back during the snap and now need to get back into their lives), there is a renewed interest in getting rid of those refugees, maybe partly so that the jobs they do can be done by those, who used to do them, again. Kind of like how after the war a lot of women lost their jobs they were encouraged to take on during the war to returning soldiers. Naturally the whole thing is meant to be a reflection of the current refugee discussion (with certain States basically wanting to put them into cages and forcing them out of the country, and the EU sometimes bringing up moral arguments but being unable to "win" against certain member states), but it doesn't really work because the references are way too vague for someone who hasn't paid attention to the topic, and too clumsy for those who have. It is also kind of odd that in a story about "Captain America" they mostly show how refugees in the EU life, but don't address the topic at all in the connection to the US (other than apparently this conference happening in the US and the guy from the US being some sort of a-hole about it).

Honestly, the two weakest aspects of the show are the Flag Smashers and Lemar (and by extension Lemar's family). I wonder...are they trying to make a sneaky point about Lemar having been at John Walker's side all the time and yet he had three medals of valour and he apparently had none? Or about Lemar spending his life to be proud of the achievements of Walker instead of worrying about his own successes? This set-up is so over the top one-sided for me, it has to be intentional, right?  

[Bill1978]

On 4/17/2021 at 10:32 AM, bethy said:

Bucky flirting with Sarah was a treat. I could have done with more of that! 

My first thought with that moment was Sarah has just become enemy #1 with the Stucky shippers 😄

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I said upthread that we still don't really know who Karli is. Not just now, but before and during the Snap, and the opportunities that she was given and lost when Thanos' plan was undone. How bad must her life have been if she really wants things the way they were for those five years? They've been rightly focused on Bucky and Sam, with a large helping of John unraveling and Zemo added in for general haughtiness and dancing like a dork, but they really could have given Karli more time to breathe as a character.

I agree, and more time for Sharon as well. Like I said, I don’t think she’s going to be the villain but I’m still disappointed that they decided to go this way for her, giving her minimal screen time and either using her as a red herring and/or Game of Thronesing her character. I was led to believe she’d be part of the trio, acting as designated mommy to Sam and Bucky’s bickering. That would have been a riot.

[Ailianna]

I would have hated the idea of Sharon playing mommy to Sam and Bucky. Part of this is about both of them growing into themselves, and a parental figure removes some of the need to grow. Plus they need to learn to interact with each other on their own terms, without a mediator, be that person Steve, the therapist, or Sharon.

[Spartan Girl]

Fair point @Ailianna but my point about how Sharon should have gotten more time still stands.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

If I understand the whole thing with the flag smashers correctly, it is not that there weren't any borders after the Snap, but because so many people were suddenly missing, refugees were more welcome to fill the gabs which were left in the workforce. But now where all countries have their own "refugees" (meaning people who came back during the snap and now need to get back into their lives), there is a renewed interest in getting rid of those refugees, maybe partly so that the jobs they do can be done by those, who used to do them, again. Kind of like how after the war a lot of women lost their jobs they were encouraged to take on during the war to returning soldiers. Naturally the whole thing is meant to be a reflection of the current refugee discussion (with certain States basically wanting to put them into cages and forcing them out of the country, and the EU sometimes bringing up moral arguments but being unable to "win" against certain member states), but it doesn't really work because the references are way too vague for someone who hasn't paid attention to the topic, and too clumsy for those who have. It is also kind of odd that in a story about "Captain America" they mostly show how refugees in the EU life, but don't address the topic at all in the connection to the US (other than apparently this conference happening in the US and the guy from the US being some sort of a-hole about it).

Taking a response to the MCU thread.