S02.E08: Survived Much Worse

[Trini]

Batwoman's abilities are tested like never before, while Alice's search for Kate continues. Sophie and Jacob set their sights on Coryana, and Luke and Mary contend with an unexpected guest.

Holly Dale directed the episode written by Natalie Abrams.

Airdate: 3/21/2021

[scarynikki12]

I know Ryan and Mary have known each other only a couple months but they are lovely friends. Mary taking plant care VERY seriously was a hoot. And of course Ryan’s beloved plant is a Desert Rose. Such a coincidence that doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It will save Ryan and allow Mary to save others.

Impressed the dagger remained in the body the whole time it was transported from Gotham to Coryana.

I loved Ryan telling Alice all the truths. Javicia and Rachel play off each other well.

Safiyah was standing right next to you Alice. Just a quick move to the right and she’d be dead. Often these mysterious island communities are on board with the whole “you kill our leader and that makes you the new one” thing so it would have been worth a try.

I guess Safiyah really does have feelings for Alice. 

Kate’s alive and badly burned so they can recast! Yay! 

[mtlchick]

https://deadline.com/2021/03/batwoman-wallis-day-kate-kane-javicia-leslie-ryan-wilder-the-cw-1234718851/
 

Well that happened.  
 

When it was being insisted on that Kate was dead, I knew that we were going to find out that she was in fact alive and just disfigured. Which is a less complicated way to explain a recast unlike Black Lightning. 
 

Part of me is irked to think they wasted half a season to essentially blow up season 1 only to recast Kate now. But since Ryan is doing quite nicely in the Batsuit and building rapport with Luke and Mary, I’m ok with it.  But really don’t care about Safiyah and the island and I hope it’s almost over with.

[cambridgeguy]

27 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

It will save Ryan and allow Mary to save others.

There's no way they can allow that plant to be an infinite source of the magical cure all.  One does to save Ryan is fine, but let's not give the world the cure to cancer and every other ill just yet.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm getting exhausted with this show especially this episode. It was just a bunch of lazy writing.

Ryan has been dying for the entire season so lets get her to this Island and get her this cure! But first she has to choose between her life and Kates "life". She chooses her own, cool, I get it. She's supposed to get her cure but what happens? The cure goes up in flames. Even though someone could run down very quickly and pluck a rose. So Ryan is on her deathbed right? NOPE! She's had the cure THE ENTIRE TIMMMEEEE that just so happens blooms while all the others die. So now Ryan has to get back home to get the cure....where she just left to get the cure...

Alice goes to the island to get Kate...she has ends up having to choose between her sister or her amnesia boyfriend. She chooses her sister and kills her boyfriend. I get it, dont blame her. BUT what happens? Her sister isnt even on the island! She killed her boyfriend for nothing! BUT WAIT! He's not dead! The desert rose was on the knife and thus brings him back to life as soon as the knife is pulled out but Alice doesnt know this.

Julia Pennyworth comes back just in the knick of time to kill an assassin but she has news to deliver...Kate is DEAD YALL! They found body parts and it matched Kates D.N.A! Everyone is shook! They are sad. Understandable. Then we end the episode with...Kate is ALIVE! 

I've never seen so many cop-outs in 1 episode. So many deaths that ended up not being deaths. It's a bit comedic. 

[possibilities]

The Batcave has really lax security.

I didn't see the plant twist coming, but as soon as it happened I smiled.

Ryan mopes less than Kate did, which I appreciate.

I didn't like all the "palace intrigue/lesbian melodrama" and I think it's lazy bullshit stereotype writing, but I did kind of like that Alice destroyed the roses-- Safiyah was really evil, arrogant, and sadistic. It might be the first time Alice seemed to have her rage aimed in the right direction.

[Lantern7]

I'll have to rewatch this. Had to record on DVR because of a Doctor Who thing on BBC America. My main takeaway is that Safitah might be the mot twisted character in this series . .  .and given Alice's presence, that's saying something. Of course, Alice is probably way more vindicative, and Black Panther never made it to the shores of Demscryia Coryana. Othewise, she would have known not to grow the heart-shaped herb Desert Rose in just the one place. But it turns out that the closest thing to family Ryan had was, in fact, a Desert Rose. Great?

I was watching in my room, and the lighting didn't help make the night scenes any clearer.

I still dig Mary as the Mom of Team Batwoman.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Maybe I'm suffering some superhero fatigue (watching the Snyder cut, the theatrical cut and episode one of Falcon and the Winter Soldier will do that to you). Maybe I'm just tired in general. But I wasn't impressed with this one.

i liked the wink-wink nudge nudge about the shark repellent (before Happy Days had the scene that originated the phrase "jumping the shark," the Adam West Batman movie had a scene where he used shark repellent to free himself from a fake-ass looking shark because of course he did).

And I liked a little bit about the Mary/Luke interactions but that turned out to be too cheesy.

Here's some stuff I didn't like:

Batwoman's about to die and she wants Sophie to stay with her. WTF for? It doesn't seem in keeping with Ryan's character that she is going to be that sentimental in general. But in specific, she has had nothing but disdain for Crow-phie. They are ship teasing and I am not here for it. 

Luke telling Batwoman to get back to Gotham because the plant she has been holding all this time was a Desert Rose. Even if you handwave the notion that of all the efforts to keep the Desert Rose secure on Coryana and that one somehow made its way to Dead Mom, you also have to handwave that either Dead Mom did not know what she had or did not tell Ryan what she had. Also, Ryan is at a minimum of six hours from Gotham, and she's been acting like she's a few hours from dead. Yes, the desert rose fields are burning, but it seems like Sophie or Jacob or even Batwoman still had plenty of time to pluck a rose from the field, not to mention presumably there are some already harvested roses that could be used.

The psychoanalysis/attempt at redemption for Alice. Really she doesn't want to kill her sister even though she's been saying she wants to for the better part of a year. She's murdered a whole bunch of people, remember? I'm sick of people underestimating her. There should have been no chance for her to escape and set fire to the desert rose fields in the first place. S1 Alice was lively and interesting in her crazy. Her schtick has gotten old. I hope they kill her character off soon. I guess she has to live long enough to give Kate Kane a new face.

Mary's been attacked for the third time this season at least. But hey, at least this wasn't the clinic! They really need to equip her with some self-defense gizmos. And they also need to stop cracking wise in serious moments. How did the intruder track things back to Team Batwoman? Who knows or cares? 

The mystery of who bombed Kate's plane and how she survived? I'd almost wished that they did just wrap things up with surprise, Kate's really dead!

[possibilities]

The thing I found most annoying was Jacob saying he could hotwire the airplane, and that he used to know how to fly, so he'd manage.

But I basically don't like Jacob anyway.

[Cranberry]

I've kind of been expecting this... when the showrunner was adamant that Kate wasn't dead, but it seemed highly unlikely Ruby would be back for anything more than a brief cameo, I figured they'd recast her once people had a while to forget Ruby's portrayal. Wallis Day is one of the people who expressed interest in the role when Ruby left, and I'm sure she'll be fine.

But... now what? Does Kate all of a sudden not care about being Batwoman? Will she just name Ryan her successor and ride off into the sunset? That seems like such a letdown. Will she stick around and go back to being Batwoman while Ryan takes on another superhero identity? That would be cool except that Ryan being the first Black Batwoman is such a big deal that this would (rightly) feel like a demotion. Will Kate take on a different role in the gang? Will there be two Batwomen? I can't think of a satisfying way to resolve this.

I'm fine with Alice deciding not to kill Kate; I thought that was true to her character. She's messed up and definitely not a good person by any means, but she's not a complete sociopath. Deep-down, she loves her sister.

Someone could definitely have run down and grabbed some flowers before they all burned up. The fire didn't spread that quickly.

Ryan's plant is a desert rose... yet another coincidence in a season already chock-full of them.

[paulvdb]

18 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

Ryan's plant is a desert rose... yet another coincidence in a season already chock-full of them.

It was actually explained in a previous episode that the desert rose was created by the blood of the island women. So I believe the plant only became a desert rose because of the blood of Safiyah's minion.

[Cranberry]

Hm, or perhaps the plant itself stayed as it was, and the blood made a desert rose grow in the pot with it? I could kind of buy that. It fits the lore better:

Quote

"According to the lore, centuries ago, the women of a village in Europe banded together to escape their abusive husbands. They'd heard tell of an island under the constellations of Cassiopeia and Andromeda, and they fled here with their children in tow. Months later, the men they escaped tracked them down. As their ships landed, the men were met by a ferocious female army. The women succeeded in driving the men back into the sea. However, it was at great cost. Many women lay dead, slaughtered. Only my ancestors and a few others survived. The next day, a field of Roses bloomed in the very spot of the battle. The women claimed the blood that had been spilled was sacred; its protective feminine essence enriched the land. They wrote that only a woman's life force could birth this medicine destined to save mankind."

I can't tell from looking at it whether the bloom is coming from the existing plant. I guess we'll find out next episode.

Edit: Nevermind, Caroline Dries confirms in this interview that the plant has always been a Desert Rose.

[mtlchick]

11 hours ago, possibilities said:

The Batcave has really lax security.

 

STAR Labs, Oliver's bunker, the DEO on Supergirl...it must be written somewhere that the superhero hideout is supposed to be easy to break into. The Fortress of Solitude on Superman and Lois is doomed. 

[Msample]

40 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

STAR Labs, Oliver's bunker, the DEO on Supergirl...it must be written somewhere that the superhero hideout is supposed to be easy to break into. The Fortress of Solitude on Superman and Lois is doomed. 

I think they must be marked on Google Maps or something. 

[tennisgurl]

So we finally get confirmation that Katie is alive, and all ready to be recast. I have never thought they would actually kill Kate, especially offscreen in something as lame as a plane crash, and this seems like the easiest way to cast a new actress to play Kate. However, I have no idea where the show goes from here or what the show will do with her. I am really ready just to wave goodbye to Kate and fully commit to Ryan as Batwoman, having Kate still all over the show, while probably necessary for awhile, is hampering her as Batwoman and the star of the show. So now does Kate come back? Much like Ryan asked, will she still be Batwomen or Kate or will they both? Because I cant imagine the show would spend so much time touting Ryan as the first black Backwomen if they planned on just having her step down right away to give the mask back to Kate or to demote her to sidekick, they have to know that the optics of that would be really bad. My best guess is that Kate comes back, gives Ryan her blessing and gets closure with everyone, then goes somewhere else that doesn't have a Batwoman to be a hero elsewhere. Then maybe she can even show up every once in awhile to guest star, and really focus on Ryan because we don't have to look for Kate or to spend a bunch of time with everyone mourning her passing. I am glad that Kate isn't dead, her dying like that would be a huge downer, and I still wonder why they didn't just do something like this from the beginning, have Kate be badly hurt use that as an excuse to recast, but Ryan is here and she is our Batwoman now, so lets have the show be about her. Bring in some new villains and give Ryan more of a supporting cast. You don't have to ditch the characters we already have, but distant the show from Kate more to focus more on Ryan. 

I hope this island story is over, it just feels like a retread on a bunch of things that Arrowverse shows have done before, just with some very questionable psycho lesbian drama for flavor. I do actually buy that Alice never really wanted to kill Kate, I think she has always loved her sister but was so angry and unstable that she had no real way to express that in a way other than declaring them enemies. She loves Kate in the only way she knows how to now, and I always thought she imagined them doing this cat and mouse dance for years to come. Of course now with this mind control retcon its hard to tell how much of that was Alice and her own feelings about her sister and how much was Safiyah. This is why this mind control thing with Alice is so frustrating even beyond this seeming like an easy way to get us to forgive Alice for her many crimes, it makes her actions so hard to read now and retroactively makes her lack a lot of punch. 

Are they trying to go somewhere with Ryan and Sophie? Because that just feels weird, like Sophie is just the standing love interest for whoever happens to be wearing a bat costume at the time. And now when Sophie is getting an actual plot with her realizing that the Crows are sketchy as hell, I don't really want to see her demoted to just love interest. 

Ryan and Mary really do have a nice friendship that has developed, they have a great rapport even though its only probably been a few weeks since they met. Mary getting all into plant care was cute, and while its contrived I do like that its the plant that will save Ryan. I even thought the scene with Alice and Ryan was pretty good, especially with Alice trying to get a rise out of Ryan while Ryan is too tired to give a shit, and that clearly annoying Alice. 

That knife sure is sticky, when its in you its really in you. 

[cambridgeguy]

40 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

My best guess is that Kate comes back, gives Ryan her blessing and gets closure with everyone, then goes somewhere else that doesn't have a Batwoman to be a hero elsewhere.

If Kate goes somewhere else (Bludhaven?) then there's no reason for Alice to stick around Gotham when she'd much rather torture her sister.  I suppose Kate could go off with Julia and do spy stuff off screen too.

[akg]

16 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Even if you handwave the notion that of all the efforts to keep the Desert Rose secure on Coryana and that one somehow made its way to Dead Mom, you also have to handwave that either Dead Mom did not know what she had or did not tell Ryan what she had.

I think Ryan said she'd gotten the plant from Angelique and that she had planned to give it to her mom but didn't get the chance. Since Angelique is connected to Ocean, it should be a little easier to explain the coincidence.

[thuganomics85]

Not a bad episode, but I think my main issue was that a lot of this stuff would have landed better for me if there had been more episodes/time devoted to certain stories and relationships.  The scenes with Ryan and Mary about her plant and Mary's overprotectiveness of it was cute, but I wish we had more time devoted to their friendship to really make it special.  Similarly, Ryan asking Sophie to stay with her when she was dying would have worked way more if we saw more of that relationship, and watched it go from mistrust to something more.  And I certainly would have been more interested in the island drama if I actually gave a damn about Safiyah and her love for Alice, and it wasn't all just clunky exposition and Shivaani Ghai; who I honestly don't want to be too hard on; overacting in a way that isn't working for me.  I get that the show probably wanted to go ahead and catch up to the Kate stuff as soon as possible, but it wouldn't have hurt to spend more time on these aspects.

That said, I wasn't surprised that Alice changed her mind about wanting to "kill Kate", but I'm glad it played out that way.  Despite her threats and bluster, I think Alice truly does love Kate in her own twisted way, and deep down will never want her gone.  In some ways, I think Alice herself wouldn't be able to live without Kate.  It's definitely messed up, but it's kind of logical in Alice's own warped way.

 I don't know if Dougray Scott is getting bored or it's just the Jacob character in general, but it's kind of amusing how nonplus he seems to be over every big twist that seems to happen.

I'm guessing the whole fake death with Ocean is setting him up to be a foil for Alice, since she did kill him in the end (but was revived by Safiyah's magical dagger!)

Love you Luke and Mary, but y'all going to really need to work on your defense skills.  Not every fight will end with Julia Pennyworth making her grand return and saving the day!

Finally, on the Kate news itself, Safiyah actually never found her, Julia says that "body parts" were found in the ocean that have her DNA, but more importantly, in the real world, we know she'll be back since she's apparently been recast as Wallis Day.  This should be interesting!

[Chicago Redshirt]

28 minutes ago, akg said:

I think Ryan said she'd gotten the plant from Angelique and that she had planned to give it to her mom but didn't get the chance. Since Angelique is connected to Ocean, it should be a little easier to explain the coincidence.

Ah! Thank you for clearing that up. 

I suppose that it raises its own set of problems, namely, how did mind-wiped Ocean manage to get off the island with the DR to get one to Angelique? The impression that I had was that he was plotting to leave and take DR samples and Beth to the real world when they got caught and mindwiped, that he hadn't actually put anything in motion to execute this plan.

I guess it's possible that he had been taken steps, including  getting a DR sample to Gotham and Angelique without fully explaining what it was, and then he got caught?

[scarynikki12]

7 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

how did mind-wiped Ocean manage to get off the island with the DR to get one to Angelique?

When Safiyah was screaming at them for their betrayal there was a quick shot of Ocean’s foot and a cutting was peaking out of his sock. That’s how he got it off the island. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

When Safiyah was screaming at them for their betrayal there was a quick shot of Ocean’s foot and a cutting was peaking out of his sock. That’s how he got it off the island. 

OK, that makes it worse IMO. Like I could buy the notion that he had made some preliminary efforts under Safiyah's radar before getting caught. But if he had not done anything before being outed for his betrayal....that doesn't make much sense.

At that point, the jig was up that he was trying to get the DR off the island, and the Bargain Basement League of Assassins were going to brainwash him. So why wouldn't they a) search both him and wherever he had been to make sure he hadn't pulled any funny stuff b) brainwash him so that he wouldn't continue with his smuggling plot and c) make sure just for safety that he never left the island going forward?

[possibilities]

Plotholes gonna plothole.

 

[AD35]

19 hours ago, possibilities said:

The Batcave has really lax security.

It's seems to be a requirement for the Arrowverse  shows when it comes to "secret headquarters for the good guys".  The Batcave from the 60's tv show seemed to be more secure.  The Arrowverse shows might as well have a Starbucks at the entrance.

Edited March 22, 2021 by AD35

[possibilities]

Are they still running Wayne Industries as a front organization and pretending business is happening there? 

[diebartdie]

I thought this was a really great episode right up until the Kate reveal.

[appositival]

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There should have been no chance for her to escape and set fire to the desert rose fields in the first place.

The guards have a new Catch-and-Release program that has really increased the tourist trade.

[Quark]

I liked this episode even if there were a lot of death fake-outs.

It was nice of Safiyyah to warn us that Tatiana was going to be another death fake-out.

The Kate twist at the end was completely baffling to me.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Quark

[sugarbaker design]

Pardon my obtuseness, but what was the significance of the last scene?  It begins with a sign for Gotham barbershop.

[Stardancer Supreme]

22 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Batwoman's about to die and she wants Sophie to stay with her. WTF for? It doesn't seem in keeping with Ryan's character that she is going to be that sentimental in general. But in specific, she has had nothing but disdain for Crow-phie. They are ship teasing and I am not here for it. 

Luke telling Batwoman to get back to Gotham because the plant she has been holding all this time was a Desert Rose. Even if you handwave the notion that of all the efforts to keep the Desert Rose secure on Coryana and that one somehow made its way to Dead Mom, you also have to handwave that either Dead Mom did not know what she had or did not tell Ryan what she had. Also, Ryan is at a minimum of six hours from Gotham, and she's been acting like she's a few hours from dead. Yes, the desert rose fields are burning, but it seems like Sophie or Jacob or even Batwoman still had plenty of time to pluck a rose from the field, not to mention presumably there are some already harvested roses that could be used.

Ryan just didn't want to die alone.  That is a thing almost any dying person would want.  I don't want Ryan to fall in love with Sophie either. Let them become frenemies.

Ryan got that plant from Angelique, who was working for Ocean; she had planned to give it her foster mother before she was killed.

So Ocean did manage to grow Desert Roses outside of Coryana after all; he may not have known that all he needed was a woman's blood to activate them.

I love Alice's petty.  But surely Safiyah has more DR fields than that one... If not, we shouldn't see anymore of her.

I was hoping that they would just leave Kate for dead. Eh.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Stardancer Supreme

[Chicago Redshirt]

58 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Pardon my obtuseness, but what was the significance of the last scene?  It begins with a sign for Gotham barbershop.

Despite being told that body parts tied to Kate's DNA were found to suggest she is dead, we are shown a figure wearing Kate's necklace, who is therefore the real Kate, alive but disfigured. 

What the body parts are that were identified/misidentified as Kate, how badly she's been damaged, why she was apparently unable to reach out to Team Batwoman, why investigators failed to find her (and the body parts (mis)identified as hers) until this point (presumably weeks/months after the plane crash), how she has survived all this time, etc. are all mysteries that are supposed to keep us coming back.

[Chicago Redshirt]

46 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Ryan just didn't want to die alone.  That is a thing almost any dying person would want.  I don't want Ryan to fall in love with Sophie either. Let them become frenemies.

I get that most people wouldn't want to die alone. But I think if I were in Ryan's cowl, given a choice between dying alone and dying snuggled up to someone who has been personally hostile to me for years, who works for the quasi-cops who got me locked up for a crime I didn't commit and who stuck me in the dilemma of ratting out the perceived love of my life and caused us to break up, I'll be setting up my fatal table for one.

[possibilities]

Didn't Katherine and falsify DNA tests, to say that Beth's bones have been found? Are we supposed to believe the team doesn't have any skepticism left in them after all they've been through? At least come up with some other ruse, instead of using the same one that Our Heroes should really know better than to fall for twice.

I supposed Kate could have been dead for real and the DR revived her-- but only partly? I don't know.

I'm really not liking how this undermines Ryan, though. Even if Kate "gives her blessing" and then retires, it skeeves me out and smacks of "you are the 2nd choice but you'll do"

 

[quarks]

Julia back! Alice on the road to redemption (why?)! Plant magic! And a nice nod to the old Batman show! And Kate back with a different face!

Good things:

1. Mary wanted to protect the plant. Awwww.

2. In general I'm not a fan of destroying things that can cure all diseases including cancer. In this case, however, I was kinda on Alice's side - burn that place down.

3. The "Why don't we have a Batplane?" I laughed.

4. The shark repellent bit. I also laughed. 

5. Ryan asking Safiyah if she was sure about that body.

Inexplicable things: 

1. Why was everyone just standing there watching the roses burn? Especially since several of the bushes weren't on fire yet? Go down there with a knife and cut off some roses and then also cut off some branches so that you can graft them onto other rose bushes? Or maybe some water or fire extinguishers to put out the fires? Like something could be salvaged from this! We just saw that it only needed a little bit of blood to get the roses blooming on Ryan's plant.

2. On a related note, look, yes, Ryan clearly loved that plant and took care of it, but if the plant could survive all of that and living in a van in relatively low light I am fairly convinced that these roses are not all THAT hard to grow and are pretty tough so let's not try to claim this is the End of the Roses.

3. So when the Desert Rose Knife is in you you're just....suspended dead? What happens if it stays in you for years? Wouldn't you get dehydrated?

4. Why was there a random plane just parked on the island and why wasn't anyone guarding it?

Questionable things:

1. Kate is back, and assuming that Julia is telling the truth about the body parts with Kate's DNA, is probably not in good enough shape to be Batwoman again. Kinda wondering how this is going to work.

2. Presumably as part of this ongoing Alice redemption arc, which....Alice is more fun as a villain, show! Let's keep her that way!

3. Given that the shot would only work for 24 hours or whatever, why didn't Ryan hold off on the shot until she was actually on the plane ready to jump? That would have given her enough time to go run down and grab a magical rose? 

4. Why did Dougray Scott take this job, and why does he continue to take it? Yes, I know, I know, "money" and "contract," but if you're this bored, Scott, it's ok to leave! Really!  

5. Will anyone on any of these Arrowverse shows ever bother to set up basic security to let them know when bad guys are just strolling into their lairs?

Bad things:

1. So I was admittedly slightly spoiled for this (in that I saw the news about the casting before I got around to watching the episode) but all of the HE'S DEAD no he's not HE'S REALLY DEAD THIS TIME no he's not SHE'S DEAD actually I'll bring her back to life later kinda dampened the surprise of KATE'S DEAD no she's not.

And now, Sophie:

In one episode:

1) failed to protect herself and her boss from getting kidnapped

2) failed to recognize a scent commonly associated with explosives, even though - remember - she's supposed to be a highly trained soldier

3) after finding Ryan mostly dying, failed to run down and grab some magical roses even though, as noted, not all of said roses were on fire yet

4) failed to notice that her cell phone was back on

5) did successfully impersonate a pillow 

So it wasn't complete failure all around. But not encouraging for her future as a character, either. 

[akg]

7 hours ago, possibilities said:

Are they still running Wayne Industries as a front organization and pretending business is happening there? 

I'm curious about this too. Kate was buying up property and turning it into low income housing, right? Is Luke continuing that? Will her dad (assuming he inherits everything)?

[possibilities]

I hope she had a will and left it all to Luke and Mary. Her father doesn't need it and can't be trusted anyway.

[possibilities]

Maybe Kate returns, decides to retire from crime fighting, Sophie also gets out of the biz since she's terrible at it, and they go live together at last, taking over Coryana from Safiyah. They take a cutting from Ryan's rose plant, and live a quiet life of magical panacea farmers, in peace and quiet, with the occasional visit to Gotham to visit Jacob, who is angrier than Alice these days, since the Crows were put out of business for being corrupt and incompetent and torturing suspects.

Kate admits she hated being Batwoman, that's why she was so mopey all the time, and everybody agrees Ryan does a better job, she's a natural, and she enjoys it besides.

I don't know what Alice does. Maybe she goes to Coryana and tries to win Ocean back, by trying to hypnotize him to forget her  betrayal.

[Trini]

Yay! I was right about Safiyah never having Kate.

But WOW, Safiyah might be even more petty and psycho than Alice; just doing THE MOST for the least. I mean, she commands a League an island of assassins, but can't just kill either Alice or Ocean she's got to 'teach them a lesson' in the most screwed up way. But I guess you can't really be a supervillain without some needlessly elaborate and complicated schemes! Must be really boring on that island.

Speaking of crazy schemes - what if Alice had decided to stab Ocean (or anybody alive) more than once with Safiyah's magical-dagger-that-brings-you-back-to-life-immediately? She's just trusting that no one was going to pull out the dagger ever?

Is it bad that I'm still rooting for Alice and Ocean to get together? I know it won't end well, but I can still enjoy the journey, right? They've got a common enemy in Safiyah, they can still make it work!

Luke and Mary continue to make a hilarious duo.

Umm -- exactly how did Safiyah's assassins track the tracker on Alice to Kate Kane's office?? Do they know about Bruce Wayne and Kate Kane's secret identities?

Can we please just cure Ryan already - it's a worse story for me than the search for Kate. (Interesting, though, that Kryptonite in every other show gives humans superpowers, but not in Gotham!) So Ryan's had the cure this entire time! Convenient and annoying plot twist. But I actually hope she gets cured on Coryana.

Hope Tatiana stays dead; don't care about her drama. And Julie comes back just in time to ... be wrong about Kate. I'm glad Kate's alive, but I feel it's too soon to bring her back while Ryan is still being established. I figured she'd be back, but later in the season.

Other things that made no sense: Jacob being brought to Coryana; Jacob finding an abandoned airplane and somehow is going to hotwire it to get off the island.

[sugarbaker design]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Despite being told that body parts tied to Kate's DNA were found to suggest she is dead, we are shown a figure wearing Kate's necklace, who is therefore the real Kate, alive but disfigured. 

Thank you, I forgot about the necklace.  So it looks like Kate might be coming back, but isn't it possible she might emulate Barbara Gordon by hanging up the cowl and adopting a new persona?

[AnimeMania]

6 hours ago, quarks said:

4. Why was there a random plane just parked on the island and why wasn't anyone guarding it?

There was no airport, no runway, no jet fuel. Why would Safiyah need to guard it? They probably kept it around as a comfortable place to do Ocean's psychedelic mushrooms.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

I hope she had a will and left it all to Luke and Mary. Her father doesn't need it and can't be trusted anyway.

Mary is definitely a billionaire in her own right, thanks to Catherine passing. 

I don't think the show has directly addressed how much money Luke actually has. But if BW Lucius was anything like other versions of Lucius, he was a prominent scientist who presumably has some patents worth a little something something and a high-level executive in Wayne Enterprises. plus he was personal friends with Bruce Wayne. I couldn't envision any mainstream version of Bruce failing to throw some money at mini-Fox. 

So in terms of love, yes, Kate should leave Luke and Mary stuff. But in terms of need, there are other people and causes who are more needy.

I presume she has given Sophie -yuck - a sizeable amount for instance. I would guess that Sophie "only" makes a couple hundred thousand a year.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Thank you, I forgot about the necklace.  So it looks like Kate might be coming back, but isn't it possible she might emulate Barbara Gordon by hanging up the cowl and adopting a new persona?

No problem, and sure, there are a bunch of things that are possible, including nuKate becomes a regular and the person-in-the-chair like Oracle/Felicity in Arrow/Gambi in Black Lightning.

There's the possible line where nuKate heals up and there's a challenge between her and Ryan for the BW mantle (either serious or like the ending of Rocky III).

There's the possible line where nuKate dies on-screen a hero, inspiring Team Batwoman and saddening/enraging Alice (or even at Alice's hands if they want to undo all this Alice redemption arc stuff).

I think that it would be pretty unlikely that they go with either two-Batwomen-at-once, or nuKate is back as the one-true-Batwoman, because that would be undermining to Ryan and her actor, but those are possibilities as well. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[tennisgurl]

Just imagine if someone started a security company specializing in superhero lairs, like actual good security so that every random person off the street or passing supervillain couldn't just stroll in? They would make an absolute killing. 

[quarks]

3 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

There was no airport, no runway, no jet fuel. Why would Safiyah need to guard it? They probably kept it around as a comfortable place to do Ocean's psychedelic mushrooms.

The jet fuel is an issue - and brings up the question of, ok, sure, Jacob, you can hotwire the plane, but does it have enough fuel to reach the next place that does?

But the lack of airport/runway, no. You don't need either - you just need a strip of land long enough to let a small plane take off and land. They had that, which meant that anyone could take off in the plane at any point if they had the key or could hotwire it and it had enough fuel. I guess it was another one of her loyalty tests, but still.

(Real story: back in the 1990s, the very tiny "airport" at Royal Chitwan National Park in Nepal had a hut and a "runway" which was just a field of grass mowed by goats and sheep, which led to the hilarious site of people realizing, crap, the plane is showing up and we forgot to get the goats out of there and the goats rather belatedly running out of the way.)

[possibilities]

9 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

There was no airport, no runway, no jet fuel. Why would Safiyah need to guard it? They probably kept it around as a comfortable place to do Ocean's psychedelic mushrooms.

Maybe it runs on women's blood for fuel. 

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

So in terms of love, yes, Kate should leave Luke and Mary stuff. But in terms of need, there are other people and causes who are more needy.

 

I like that idea. Her estate being left to charity would also be a reason for her to disappear rather than return and be Batwoman. 

[immortalfrieza]

On 3/21/2021 at 8:30 PM, cambridgeguy said:

There's no way they can allow that plant to be an infinite source of the magical cure all.  One does to save Ryan is fine, but let's not give the world the cure to cancer and every other ill just yet.

Of course not. Whether it's the comic books, tv shows like this one, or whatever, If the heroes used even 1/10th of the marvelous medicines, cure alls, sci fi tech, and so on that keep popping up, the DC/Marvel Earth would be a utopia and thus boring, so of course that can't happen.

Speaking of marvelous medicines, so Alice sets fire to this orchard of Desert Rose, so Sophie and Ryan just sit there and watch instead of running down there to see if they could actually find some that haven't burned up yet. The whole orchard is going to take quite a while for every last flower to be destroyed. It's not like Ryan isn't about to die anyway so might as well at least TRY to do something. Should've at had some of Safiyah's people running around trying to stop the fire or something so trying to do that would've ended up being too risky, then there would actually be a reason..

On 3/21/2021 at 9:04 PM, Primal Slayer said:

Ryan has been dying for the entire season so lets get her to this Island and get her this cure! But first she has to choose between her life and Kates "life". She chooses her own, cool, I get it. She's supposed to get her cure but what happens? The cure goes up in flames. Even though someone could run down very quickly and pluck a rose.

Shows have this need to put up this false drama all the time. We all knew Ryan was never going to die and that Kate wasn't on that island from the start, even if one didn't hear about Kate's actress it wasn't hard to guess latter. However, the show acts like both of these things are big revelations instead of simply not putting in those plots in the first place and putting in something we actually don't expect. Drama only works when the audience doesn't already know what's going to happen.
 

Quote

Alice goes to the island to get Kate...she has ends up having to choose between her sister or her amnesia boyfriend. She chooses her sister and kills her boyfriend. I get it, dont blame her. BUT what happens? Her sister isnt even on the island! She killed her boyfriend for nothing! BUT WAIT! He's not dead! The desert rose was on the knife and thus brings him back to life as soon as the knife is pulled out but Alice doesn't know this.

And Alice doesn't even want to kill Kate anymore, so she has no reason to go along with Safiyah and kill Ocean anyway. On that note, so Safiyah, as much as I hate to defend Alice you decided to screw with Alice's head to turn her into a remorseless monster and it's Alice's fault she's willing to kill her boyfriend to get her sister back? Uh huh.

On 3/21/2021 at 9:35 PM, possibilities said:

The Batcave has really lax security.

More specifically, Wayne tower has really lax security. It seems like anyone just walks straight into it without even so much as an alert like "hey guys, intruder here!" At least this time it was a supposed master assassin... who can't subdue and kill two completely untrained civilians somehow but hey, at least this time it's someone who is supposed to be capable of stealth.

On 3/21/2021 at 10:17 PM, Lantern7 said:

I'll have to rewatch this. Had to record on DVR because of a Doctor Who thing on BBC America. My main takeaway is that Safitah might be the mot twisted character in this series . .  .and given Alice's presence, that's saying something.

Considering Safiyah apparently had the secret to curing countless if not every disease on the planet plus cancer and who knows what else on hand her whole life and did absolutely nothing with it not to mention distributing it around the globe I'd say she's definitely the most twisted.

On 3/22/2021 at 12:43 AM, Cranberry said:

But... now what? Does Kate all of a sudden not care about being Batwoman? Will she just name Ryan her successor and ride off into the sunset? That seems like such a letdown. Will she stick around and go back to being Batwoman while Ryan takes on another superhero identity? That would be cool except that Ryan being the first Black Batwoman is such a big deal that this would (rightly) feel like a demotion. Will Kate take on a different role in the gang? Will there be two Batwomen? I can't think of a satisfying way to resolve this.

The only way I could see this working is if they took a page from Batgirl/Barbra Gordon's book and have "Kate" be too badly injuried to fight anymore, so she stays at the Batcave on coms with Luke while he does R&D. Then again, they've been handed a cure all so... there that goes.

Really, the only way they could've resolved this well at all is simply state Kate was dead and stick with it.
 

 

19 hours ago, quarks said:

2. In general I'm not a fan of destroying things that can cure all diseases including cancer. In this case, however, I was kinda on Alice's side - burn that place down.

Considering that Safiyah apparently has no intention of ever doing anything with this magical cure all except making more Desert Roses and then sitting on it for the rest of eternity, why not destroy them? They functionally don't exist anyway.

Quote

3. So when the Desert Rose Knife is in you you're just....suspended dead? What happens if it stays in you for years? Wouldn't you get dehydrated?

All I could think of was this: "a dagger that stabs people in the heart and sends them into suspended animation until it's pulled out... now where have I seen that before..."

(Cue Vampire Diaries flashbacks.)

18 hours ago, Trini said:

(Interesting, though, that Kryptonite in every other show gives humans superpowers, but not in Gotham!)

Actually, it would've been interesting if the Kryptonite poisoning was also giving Ryan superpowers. They could've easily tied it into why Ryan wasn't telling anybody about it for several episodes: She didn't want to risk losing the powers and thus becoming less effective, until the poisoning starts winning out, THEN she collapses and the "save Ryan" storyline starts. Still really stupid for Ryan not to tell Mary and Luke about it for so long, but at least she'd have an actual reason not to.

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Speaking of marvelous medicines, so Alice sets fire to this orchard of Desert Rose, so Sophie and Ryan just sit there and watch instead of running down there to see if they could actually find some that haven't burned up yet. The whole orchard is going to take quite a while for every last flower to be destroyed. It's not like Ryan isn't about to die anyway so might as well at least TRY to do something. Should've at had some of Safiyah's people running around trying to stop the fire or something so trying to do that would've ended up being too risky, then there would actually be a reason..

I mean, seeing as how this plant cures even death, I was thinking that even inhaling some of that Desert Rose smoke might help Ryan.

[Starry]

On 3/22/2021 at 9:27 AM, Cranberry said:

Edit: Nevermind, Caroline Dries confirms in this interview that the plant has always been a Desert Rose.

That's too bad because I liked the other explanation better. I am over the Desert Rose plot device anyway.

I might be in the minority here because I don't get any ship teasing vibes with Ryan and Sophie. And after what Alice did they can forget about her and Ocean as a couple too.

Alice loving her sister doesn't make her a good person. She's still willing to kill anyone who gets in her way. It's not easy to do a well-crafted redemption arc and if this season has taught me anything, it's that these writers tend to go for the most convenient AND contrived explanations. Rachel is a really good actress though.

They need to tone down Mary's quirkiness. There's a time and place to act cutesy.

It's not their fault that the Vancouver weather is the way it is but Coryana looked too bleak for my taste.

[BeautifulFlower]

I don't get being upset over no one running down to get a rose. First, the first looked like it was spreading FAST. Two, I'm pretty sure Sophie was on top of a cliff. Who knows how long she would have to run to get down there.

On 3/23/2021 at 12:21 AM, quarks said:

 

And now, Sophie:

In one episode:

1) failed to protect herself and her boss from getting kidnapped

2) failed to recognize a scent commonly associated with explosives, even though - remember - she's supposed to be a highly trained soldier

3) after finding Ryan mostly dying, failed to run down and grab some magical roses even though, as noted, not all of said roses were on fire yet

4) failed to notice that her cell phone was back on

5) did successfully impersonate a pillow 

So it wasn't complete failure all around. But not encouraging for her future as a character, either. 

1. Okay, so only Sophie could save them from getting kidnapped. Can Jacob not defend himself now? Also, they were ambushed. Notice how you don't want to mention how both she and Jacob knocked out Tatiana and escaped.

2. Since when does highly trained soldiers should recognize EVERY scent? That's stupid

3. Again, look at my above post. Sophie was on top of a cliff. The fire was spreading FAST. It was pointless.

4. Really? Are you for real with this one? People can have opinions, but I feel like you're just searching for things to dislike Sophie for.

[quarks]

24 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't get being upset over no one running down to get a rose. First, the first looked like it was spreading FAST. Two, I'm pretty sure Sophie was on top of a cliff. Who knows how long she would have to run to get down there.

1. Okay, so only Sophie could save them from getting kidnapped. Can Jacob not defend himself now? Also, they were ambushed. Notice how you don't want to mention how both she and Jacob knocked out Tatiana and escaped.

2. Since when does highly trained soldiers should recognize EVERY scent? That's stupid

3. Again, look at my above post. Sophie was on top of a cliff. The fire was spreading FAST. It was pointless.

4. Really? Are you for real with this one? People can have opinions, but I feel like you're just searching for things to dislike Sophie for.

Sophie wasn't the only person who didn't run to rescue the roses. Safiyah and numerous other extras didn't either.

As for the rest, well, for one, this wasn't the Jacob section. It was the Sophie section. And, alas, we've seen on many occasions that no, Jacob cannot always defend himself - this is at least the second time this season alone that he's been kidnapped. Which is why he hired Sophie in the first place. As multiple characters have explicitly said, in script, Sophie's job is to guard Jacob, especially when they are out in the field. She's said it. Kate's said it. Alice's said it. Mary's said it. Julia's said it. It doesn't matter whether it's an ambush or not - her job is to protect him. And even here - as you just noted, she didn't knock out Tatiana; she and Jacob knocked out Tatiana. That was a moment where she could have been heroic on her own, and wasn't - something that happens a lot on this show.

But more to the point, no, I'm not searching for reasons to dislike Sophie. Sure, I snark quite a bit. But I like the actress; I think the character has a lot of potential, and I hope she stays on the show, and I certainly like her a lot more than the show's other major love interest, Angelique. I'm also hoping that she - not Alice, and definitely not Julia - is the one who gets to find Kate. What I am trying to do is to figure out is what, exactly, the writers are trying to do with her - because although I think the character has a lot of potential, it's still not really working on screen. Those points I mentioned above? All part of that not working thing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I don't get being upset over no one running down to get a rose. First, the first looked like it was spreading FAST. Two, I'm pretty sure Sophie was on top of a cliff. Who knows how long she would have to run to get down there.

1. Okay, so only Sophie could save them from getting kidnapped. Can Jacob not defend himself now? Also, they were ambushed. Notice how you don't want to mention how both she and Jacob knocked out Tatiana and escaped.

2. Since when does highly trained soldiers should recognize EVERY scent? That's stupid

3. Again, look at my above post. Sophie was on top of a cliff. The fire was spreading FAST. It was pointless.

4. Really? Are you for real with this one? People can have opinions, but I feel like you're just searching for things to dislike Sophie for.

For my money:

Yes, it is possible that it would have been futile to try to save a desert rose. It probably would not hurt to try to get one or to try to put out the fire, or to see if even a burned rose might have healing properties. It wouldn't have killed the writers to have Sophie verbalize that she couldn't make it to the fields before they were burned or some such.

Obviously, part of a show like this involves every character experiencing setbacks from time to time. But they should also experience successes. And for Sophie, those successes are rare. How much would be different if the writers wanted to do this episode without Sophie? They'd have to make Jake talk to himself and maybe they would make him be the one Ryan snuggled up to.

I don't think anyone is saying that Sophie should recognize every scent. Fertilizer seems like one that it is not unreasonable for her to be familiar with though.

It just seems ridiculous that Mary is being portrayed as a bigger bad-ass than Sophie right now. Which one, despite just being a spoiled socialite with no training, managed to outfight or outfox two Batman villains and a train assassin, rescue Batwoman, drive the Batmobile such that she evaded the cops, and help synthesize a cure for a plague Alice caused?