Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[bobalina]

2 hours ago, letter8358 said:

Bob Dylan accused of sexually abusing a 12 year old girl in 1965

WTF?

She claims he groomed her during April and May at a fancy hotel. According to showbiz411The Chelsea hotel was pretty run down even then and independent calenders show Dylan in L.A. recording for much of April and performing in England in May. So I'm gonna wait and see because if this was going on 50+ years ago there are more victims.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bobalina said:

She claims he groomed her during April and May at a fancy hotel. According to showbiz411The Chelsea hotel was pretty run down even then and independent calenders show Dylan in L.A. recording for much of April and performing in England in May. So I'm gonna wait and see because if this was going on 50+ years ago there are more victims.

 

I’ve read the lawsuit and she never describes the hotel as fancy. It only says iconic. Showbiz411’s extremely biased article doesn’t seem to understand the difference between what was said in a legal document and TMZ’s comments. 

Those independent calendars show plenty of opportunities for travel and are extremely unreliable 50+ years later and are maintained by a fan. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Guest

[Vermicious Knid]

Somewhat better article about Dylan from NPR.

[aradia22]

This story is so weird, I don't know what to think.

https://pagesix.com/2021/08/17/broadway-star-alice-ripley-denies-tiktokers-grooming-claims/

Especially because "you were having constant inappropriate interactions with me all while talking shit about me behind my back" doesn't sound like grooming.

Here's a twitter post from a random person that links to the actual TikTok

A follow-up TikTok

Edited August 17, 2021 by aradia22

[aradia22]

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Four people called Ripley’s behavior behavior an abuse of power, alleging she sought out vulnerable young fans, who were often queer. They claim Ripley would shower them with compliments and even tell them who they should and shouldn’t “associate” with, including other fans. They allege they were constantly competing for the attention of Ripley, who in turn would make them feel special and even integral to her life. Some felt she was a mother-type figure to them. Others claim they were in love with her. When they could no longer provide Ripley with the level of attention she supposedly wanted, she allegedly would discard them, leaving them shattered.

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These moments of doling out favoritism created a competition-like atmosphere among Ripley’s fans, both Brie Lynn and Liz explain, sparking jealousy when she chose certain people to come backstage over others.

It certainly sounds toxic and like queen bee/mean girl behavior but not grooming?

This does sound messy and inappropriate... but I don't know if not having boundaries is the same as being predatory...

Quote

Brie Lynn claims that Ripley encouraged her to watch the movie Serendipity, later inviting her and a group to lunch at the restaurant where the movie was filmed. It was there that Ripley allegedly told 14-year-old Brie Lynn that the “first time we locked eyes, she felt like the world stopped.”

Eventually, Brie Lynn says she felt that she was in love with Ripley “because it felt like it was encouraged to feel that way toward her.” Ripley would also allegedly engage in sexual conversations with Brie Lynn, who admits that she would initiate those talks.

“There were instances where I would bring up a sexual situation that might have involved a specific sexual act, and she was not shutting down those conversations, she was participating in them,” Brie Lynn alleges. “She was responding to this back and forth. I’m 25, I can’t imagine getting a message like that from a kid and doing anything other than immediately leaving the conversation.”

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At the time, Leo was 16 and was introduced to the musical through a partner who Leo claimed was having “similar experiences” with Ripley. “They told me about Next to Normal and I listened to it... I just kind of fell in love with the musical,” Leo said. “From there, I fell in love with Alice, because I was able to have a palpable representation of my mom, and I felt like that was a representation of what a mom should be.”

Leo went on to make a fan account for Ripley, who ended up following Leo on both Twitter and Instagram, the latter where Ripley would often comment on Leo’s posts and message them privately. “I was like, ‘Oh my gosh, thanks so much for being this mother figure in my life,’” Leo explained. “And she would reply, ‘You have no idea how special you are to me.’”

Leo said she confided in Ripley about her family not being supportive of her sexuality, with Ripley comforting her and supporting her. But as Leo began to develop a relationship with another partner, whom they would post about, they noticed Ripley began to distance herself, her replies becoming curt. Eventually, she ceased messaging Leo, which was devastating.

“It definitely has messed with me,” Leo explained. “I used to cry about how she quit talking to me and how I thought I was special to her. I have BPD [borderline personality disorder] so I get attached to people really easily and become dependent on them for happiness. When that happened, it was devastating. I just felt awful about it.”

Quote

Meredith began going to more and more shows, hanging out with Ripley and a group of fans in a back alley after shows. She also began messaging Ripley on Facebook about things that were going on in her family.

“Particularly things that were going on with my mother, who was bipolar and really reminiscent of the relationship in the show,” Meredith explains. “I think I projected a lot because of the material she was in. I will say that although she wasn’t always responsive to me, she also never shut me down, so I saw it as a productive place to express myself at the time. I guess I thought she had some insight into mental illness because of this character, because she was this older woman. I was always able to contact her, and she would read them, and she would write me back, even if it was just like two words.”

Meredith says when she returned to boarding school that August, Ripley would sporadically send her care packages, containing her old clothes or small tokens. She would also sometimes make journeys up to New York City from North Carolina to catch the show and visit with Ripley in the alleyway.

Shortly before her 18th birthday, Meredith moved to New York City to attend NYU. Ripley was allegedly so ecstatic at the news that she took Meredith coat-shopping at Burlington Coat Factory because Meredith had never lived somewhere as cold as New York. Around this time, Ripley was deciding if she wanted to star in Next to Normal when it went on tour, confiding in Meredith about her hesitation, leading Meredith to feel there was a special bond between the two.

This seems like the most damning story...

Quote

In February, Next to Normal was in San Francisco, and once again Ripley invited Meredith to come out and visit her. “I was like, ‘Oh my god, I have school, I am a freshman in college, but, okay,’ because that’s the kind of spell that I was under,” Meredith says, claiming that Ripley specifically mentioned it would be Valentine’s Day during the trip. Meredith says Ripley picked her up from her hotel in a rented car and they went on a little day trip to the John Muir Woods and nearby beach. Time-stamped photos reviewed by The Daily Beast show Meredith and Ripley on their jaunt in San Diego, as well as photos from the San Francisco trip.

One night during that short trip, Meredith says she was alone with Ripley in her dressing room following a show. As Ripley was sitting at her vanity, Meredith was sitting on the floor and began reading an affectionate letter someone had written to Ripley. But at the end of the letter, Meredith claims Ripley “spun around in her chair and she bent down on the floor and kissed me on my mouth without any announcement that that was going to happen.”

Years later, Meredith still has trouble explaining exactly what happened. “It wasn’t like she started making out with me, but it was enough for me to go, this person who I’d really interpreted in a familial context might not be that person,” she says. “I had never kissed a woman before, there was nothing like this that had ever happened to me before.”

“She had established enough of a trust with me and allowed me to pursue time with her to such an extent that I found myself in her dressing room alone, and when she approached me with an obviously physical behavior, I didn’t even flinch. I was like, ‘Yep, yes.’ That’s what in hindsight seems weird to me. If anybody did that to me now or anybody else at 18, I would have been like, ‘Whoa, what are you doing?’ Instead, I was totally softened to it.”

Over the next few months, Ripley was continuing to tour with Next to Normal and Meredith was devoting much more of her time to college, as well as spending time with her friends, although she would still speak to Ripley and sometimes see her. In September 2011, Meredith claims Ripley even came to watch her scene work at NYU’s acting school.

During this period, Meredith was dealing with serious family issues, which in turn caused her mental health to severely decline. Viewing Ripley as a mother-figure, Meredith says she tried to lean on Ripley for support, reaching out to her for help, but Ripley only gave the bare minimum in return, sending short replies.

“That’s perhaps more manipulative than just silence,” Meredith says. “She was engaging with me when I ‘really needed’ her. It’s just she actually didn’t materially do anything. Then my mental health got so serious that I was ultimately hospitalized. As fate would have it, I was hospitalized on her birthday. Earlier that day, she had said even though it was her birthday, that she would come to my dorm and help me pack my things for the hospital. But as it happened, I didn’t make it through that day, I went to the hospital earlier than planned. When I was sitting in the intake room, I got a text, like, ‘I will not be coming to see you. I will see you on the other side.’ And she never did.”

Meredith says Ripley essentially ghosted her, never hearing from her after she was released from the hospital two weeks later, with her messages, emails, and phone calls all going unreturned. “I think it probably took me over a year to really realize that she wasn’t going to,” she adds. “It was a very abrupt and frankly traumatic fracture in the relationship.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/4-accusers-speak-out-about-how-broadway-star-alice-ripley-traumatized-her-young-fans

[GaT]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:40 AM, aradia22 said:

It certainly sounds toxic and like queen bee/mean girl behavior but not grooming?

This does sound messy and inappropriate... but I don't know if not having boundaries is the same as being predatory...

This seems like the most damning story...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/4-accusers-speak-out-about-how-broadway-star-alice-ripley-traumatized-her-young-fans

Um, where were these girl's parents? "Sure honey, you're 14 years old so I don't have a problem with you going to lunch with this strange woman I don't know. After all, she's a Broadway star". 

Edited August 20, 2021 by GaT

[letter8358]

The Young and The Restless showrunner accused of sexually harassing actress in new lawsuit

Edited August 21, 2021 by letter8358

[aradia22]

Quote

“It is a misinterpretation of my actions to say I manipulated anyone, and more shockingly, that there was abuse,” she wrote to Page Six in a statement. “Yet here we are on this slippery slope, because terms like ‘grooming’ are being thrown around … To be accused of this most vile thing, of which I am innocent, is crushing,”

Ripley explains that performances of the musical she won a Tony for, “Next to Normal,” “were truly safe spaces for people who had been touched by mental illness,” and that teen girls flocked to the show for repeat viewings, many of whom “imprinted their own mothers onto my character, [or] saw themselves in the daughter.”

Ripley describes her interactions with such fans as “a quick hello at the stage door” or “[seeing] people in my dressing room for a couple minutes before or after the show,” adding that “on rare occasions,” she would “have a quick meal” with one.

“It’s now clear that a few of these fans had their feelings badly hurt because they received attention and then they felt ‘ghosted,'” by her lack of subsequent regard for them, she continues, “and I truly apologize for that.”

“Inevitably, they had their own fan dramas and jealousies, and I stayed out of that as much as I could,” the star writes, which seemingly nods at the accounts of two accusers — Brie Lynn and “Liz” — who said fans would battle over who received the most of Ripley’s attention during a show.

“I never meant to give anything but positive reinforcement,” Ripley’s statement concludes, “and I’m sorry anyone felt slighted.”

But “grooming,” she says, “refers to sexual abuse of a minor, which is the most despicable act imaginable. It implies that I wanted something or asked for something, and that is not true.”

Page Six article but I quoted most of it

[Cotypubby]

Nah, I remember the absolutely crazy stans that flocked around Next to Normal and Alice Ripley. IIRC some were known in the Broadway community as stalkers. That fandom was toxic with people believing they were actually her friends and imagining relationships because she would be nice to them at the stage door or would recognize people who showed up many many times. 

[Guest]

On 8/21/2021 at 6:22 PM, aradia22 said:

Page Six article but I quoted most of it

Honestly, it sounds like a situation where it impossible to really know what happened. I’ve observed enough fandoms to see how unhealthy the level of attachment can become even when the celeb doesn’t engage. It also makes me raise my eyebrows whenever celebrities engage with fans on a more personal level. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Guest

[vibeology]

But why would she go to dinner with unaccompanied children? Or have them in her dressing room alone? Her complete and total lack of boundaries go unexplained and they are the part that worries me. She is absolutely minimizing what she did and it seems like all these women who were children at the time have the receipts to prove it.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a teenager who never crushed on an adult in their life which is why it is always on adults to maintain boundaries and shut that shit down. You shouldn't be texting with random teens or seeing them alone or inviting them to travel to be with you. Just because she didn't rape any of these children doesn't mean she didn't harm them. She absolutely took advantage of them to at the very least boost her ego and more likely to get some sort of sexual thrill. She enforced patterns of unhealthy relationships that could follow these women into adulthood. It's truly upsetting and I hope that everyone who has come forward and those who aren't ready to come forward have good supports around them now to help them all heal.

[Vermicious Knid]

R. Kelly trial going on now. Lots of info on his pressuring underage girls for sex, how he isolated them and forced them to follow his strict rules. Married Aaliyah at 15 because she was pregnant and only a spouse or parents could approve an abortion. His doctor confirmed he has herpes, two women testified they've been infected, and most likely he's given it to all his women.

[JustHereForFood]

6 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

R. Kelly trial going on now. Lots of info on his pressuring underage girls for sex, how he isolated them and forced them to follow his strict rules. Married Aaliyah at 15 because she was pregnant and only a spouse or parents could approve an abortion. His doctor confirmed he has herpes, two women testified they've been infected, and most likely he's given it to all his women.

And yet they keep playing his music on the radio. I feel sick each time. I am not against people listening to him or other artists that have proven to be the worst human shit on their own (CDs, youtube, apps, etc), but could they please stop airing them on public platforms? 

[ifionlyknew]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

And yet they keep playing his music on the radio. I feel sick each time. I am not against people listening to him or other artists that have proven to be the worst human shit on their own (CDs, youtube, apps, etc), but could they please stop airing them on public platforms? 

I have not listened to him in years.  I don't listen to the radio and Pandora doesn't play his music anymore. They cut ties with him in 2018.

https://pitchfork.com/news/apple-music-and-pandora-no-longer-promoting-r-kelly/#:~:text=Pandora has also ceased promotion,behavioral%2C ethical or criminal issues.

[SunnyBeBe]

14 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

And yet they keep playing his music on the radio. I feel sick each time. I am not against people listening to him or other artists that have proven to be the worst human shit on their own (CDs, youtube, apps, etc), but could they please stop airing them on public platforms? 

It’s amazing and not in a good way. A couple of weeks ago I saw what appeared to be a 50 year old woman in a new looking Michael Jackson t-shirt!  I’m not kidding. 

[methodwriter85]

On 8/22/2021 at 11:54 AM, Cotypubby said:

Nah, I remember the absolutely crazy stans that flocked around Next to Normal and Alice Ripley. IIRC some were known in the Broadway community as stalkers. That fandom was toxic with people believing they were actually her friends and imagining relationships because she would be nice to them at the stage door or would recognize people who showed up many many times. 

I absolutely loved Next to Normal. I wonder if Jennifer Damiano or Aaron Tveit have some stories as well.

[letter8358]

Disgraced porn star Ron Jeremy indicted on more than 30 counts of sexual assault

[Anduin]

55 minutes ago, letter8358 said:

Disgraced porn star Ron Jeremy indicted on more than 30 counts of sexual assault

In his career, how many women has he been with? How much was he paid for the privilege? And yet, it wasn't enough. He was given a lot and chose to take more. I really fucking hate that. Lock him up and throw the key away.

Adult director Holly Randall interviews people in the industry on YT. There's the occasional story about Jeremy. Everyone mentions that they had a feeling, but clearly no one was willing to talk until it suddenly blew up.

She'll probably do an episode talking about this, once the dust has settled. It'll be an interesting listen.

[Vermicious Knid]

Lawsuit alleges former "Good Morning America" boss Michael Corn sexually assaulted two staffers.
 

Quote

 

The allegations, which Corn has denied, have rocked all levels of the news network, I'm told by multiple sources. As one source put it to me, "There is a lot of anger and confusion and people wanting to understand what happened..."  ...

News about the lawsuit jolted across people's phones via a push alert from The Wall Street Journal Wednesday morning. Reporter Joe Flint scooped that Corn, who had inexplicably left ABC News earlier this year, was facing sexual assault allegations from two of his former colleagues....For its part, ABC only put out a terse statement that said, "We are committed to upholding a safe and supportive work environment and have a process in place that thoroughly reviews and addresses complaints that are made. ABC News disputes the claims made against it and will address this matter in court." A spokesperson for the network declined to say anything more...

Around 3pm ET, ABC News staffers got a curious email from newsgathering SVP Wendy Fisher, informing them that the afternoon editorial call with President Kim Godwin had been delayed until 3:10pm....At the top of the call, Godwin — who took charge earlier this year — read ABC's statement. She said that she came to ABC News to help change the culture and is committed to doing so. She said she wanted to be there for staffers and that she was addressing the issue Wednesday afternoon because she didn't want to wait until the 9am call the following day...

Godwin then took questions from a frustrated staff. Godwin was asked why the statement ABC News issued said that the network "disputed" the allegations. She answered that she didn't believe it to be a blanket statement, and that the company has certain feelings toward certain allegations. Godwin was asked why everyone learned about the allegations from The Wall Street Journal, instead of from management. Her answer: because the allegations were made in a lawsuit.

The questions from ABC'ers were not in short supply. Bottom line: It was a call full of raw emotion. I'm told one person yelled. Another person cried. As one source put it to me, "It was definitely a tense call..."

 

So every news division at every network seems to be staffed by harassers and misogynists.

[ifionlyknew]

5 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Lawsuit alleges former "Good Morning America" boss Michael Corn sexually assaulted two staffers.
 

So every news division at every network seems to be staffed by harassers and misogynists.

Pretty sure it's not just the news divisions.  

[merylinkid]

7 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Lawsuit alleges former "Good Morning America" boss Michael Corn sexually assaulted two staffers.
 

So every news division at every network seems to be staffed by harassers and misogynists.

Considering the egos involved in doing national broadcasts and the power trips, not surprised in the least.  

[Ailianna]

On 8/25/2021 at 7:04 PM, Anduin said:

In his career, how many women has he been with? How much was he paid for the privilege? And yet, it wasn't enough. He was given a lot and chose to take more. I really fucking hate that. Lock him up and throw the key away.

That's because rape is not about sex, it's about power. Willing colleagues, also professionals getting paid, are not a power trip.

[Anduin]

26 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

That's because rape is not about sex, it's about power. Willing colleagues, also professionals getting paid, are not a power trip.

Yeah, I see that. The whole thing just pisses me off.

[aradia22]

Quote

But it’s important to know that while grooming is a tool that sexual abusers use, in the end, it’s simply a tool that is not exclusive to sexual abuse. It can be used to gain any sort of advantage on a victim. Often, those use it to gain the trust of potential victims through attention, sharing “secrets”, and other means to make them feel that they have a caring relationship and to train them to keep the relationship secret.

Did Alice Ripley allegedly groom these young people in hopes of sexually abusing them? It doesn’t appear that way. Did she apparently use the tool of grooming for other purposes with these fans? That’s an entirely different discussion.

And that’s where I find myself. I’m not going to say that Alice Ripley groomed these young fans and I’m also not going to say she didn’t because I’m not qualified to make that call. But I am going to say that her interactions with them were inappropriate. Especially given that these were teenagers who were at an already vulnerable age and more so given some of them were living with mental illness.

Quote

Now, did Ripley know she was being manipulative with these young fans? Did she know she was overstepping her boundaries? I don’t know, only she knows that. But should she have known? Absolutely. She was the adult in the room. She was the one replying to emails that shouldn’t have been replied to. She was inviting teenage fans back to her dressing room, unsupervised. She was the one casually having physical contact with him. And once again, keep in mind, these were teenagers.

And while this all occurred more than a decade ago, it’s not as if it was appropriate then, a decade prior to that, or now.

At the same time, those who are calling her a pedophile, are incorrect and are dangerously throwing around that term. She’s not being accused of sexual abuse of minors and shouldn’t be labeled as something that should only be reserved for those who commit those heinous acts.

Quote

Now, are fans blameless in situations like these? Not all the time. Performers have shown me a multitude of DM’s and other interactions from fans saying the most inappropriate things. But here’s a big difference – not a single one of those performers enabled or encouraged those types of interactions, nor attempted to develop and further those connections in the ways that Ripley did.

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While I don’t know exactly what’s already in place, I do think there are steps that both sides can take to ensure that interactions are safe, fun, and appropriate. In fact, many are doing this already.

I think the first great step is for theatre artists to be completely clear with what their boundaries are and limit the ways fans can connect with them. I know one performer who makes it very clear when they are available for stage door meet-ups, how fans can email them and what will and won’t be responded to. I’ve seen others who have made it clear what will get fans blocked and reported on social media. I also think creating specific social media accounts strictly for fan interaction is always a good idea.

It’s never okay for a fan to overstep their boundaries but that’s why they need to know where those boundaries are. Ripley blurred that line and that’s where the problems occurred.

I also think that any public interaction with fans, such as stage door signings or backstage meetups needs to have a third party present at all times. I’m not talking about security personnel necessarily, but someone who can monitor interactions to make sure everyone is protected.

Finally, and again I don’t know if there is already being implemented, but training in social media interactions for theatre artists hosted by the unions or given during rehearsal periods is always a good idea too. Throughout my career, I’ve been given multiple pieces of training that have helped me effectively and safely communicate with others. I’d like to think this may be helpful in the theatre industry as well.

https://www.onstageblog.com/editorials/2021/8/24/the-alice-ripley-issue-has-started-a-conversation-and-the-broadway-community-isnt-ready

[aradia22]

This follow-up post on social media also makes good points (though probably not anything revelatory to people who spend a lot of time online)

https://www.onstageblog.com/editorials/2021/8/25/the-unfair-pressure-on-performers-of-having-to-grow-social-media-followings-to-land-gigs

[Zella]

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

But it’s important to know that while grooming is a tool that sexual abusers use, in the end, it’s simply a tool that is not exclusive to sexual abuse. It can be used to gain any sort of advantage on a victim. Often, those use it to gain the trust of potential victims through attention, sharing “secrets”, and other means to make them feel that they have a caring relationship and to train them to keep the relationship secret.

That's a really good point. Truman Capote used the same sharing secrets tactic on Marlon Brando, not for purposes of grooming for sexual abuse but for tricking Brando into being far more candid about his personal life (especially his dysfunctional childhood) in an interview. Brando felt pretty victimized and outraged by the whole thing, but he couldn't undo anything once the information was published. It's definitely a tactic that can be used by a wide range of manipulators. 

[GaT]

I still don't understand what she did besides go to lunch with minors. Does anyone know exactly what she is being accused of? Just saying "grooming" doesn't tell me anything.

[Luckylyn]

Can mentorship get confused with grooming?  Can an adult and a minor be friends in a big sister/big brother way?  I feel like it can be hard to see the difference between someone who’s grooming a minor and someone who is offering mentorship depending on the situation.  I could see a minor getting tricked by a predator under the guise of mentorship but could also see someone whose intentions are good get mistaken for grooming a minor.

I say this as someone who side eyes the Sia and Maddie Zeigler friendship/business relationship.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Luckylyn

[Guest]

2 hours ago, GaT said:

I still don't understand what she did besides go to lunch with minors. Does anyone know exactly what she is being accused of? Just saying "grooming" doesn't tell me anything.

I think this was posted earlier but here is a breakdown of what she’s being accused of. 
4 Accusers Speak Out About How Broadway Star Alice Ripley ‘Traumatized’ Her Young Fans

I am of the opinion that any celebrities who develop personal relationships of any kind with minor fans is inappropriate under any circumstances. That power imbalance is just too vast. Those relationship seem to be more about idolization than support. 

I don’t know if it is grooming but I do feel like the general conversation would be splitting less hairs if Ripley was a man. That feels like a double standard to me since most of the accusers queer. 

2 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Can mentorship get confused with grooming?  Can an adult and a minor be friends in a big sister/big brother way?  I feel like it can be hard to see the difference between someone who’s grooming a minor and someone who is offering mentorship depending on the situation.  I could see a minor getting tricked by a predator under the guise of mentorship but could also see someone whose intentions are good get mistaken for grooming a minor.

I think it can but, if what the accusers are saying is true, it doesn’t sound like that is what is happening here. Legitimate mentors shouldn’t be having conversations about pictures of themselves in lingerie. Even Ripley says that she knew that these were girls with mental health issues who imprinted on her as a mother figure. Even if she didn’t technically do anything wrong not being more careful was irresponsible. 

Also, after the first accusation was made Ripley made this post which doesn’t make me think she is cut out to be a mentor. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Guest

[aradia22]

Quote

I don’t know if it is grooming but I do feel like the general conversation would be splitting less hairs if Ripley was a man. That feels like a double standard to me since most of the accusers queer. 

As far as I know, Ripley is not though. I'd also be more likely to reserve judgment if we were talking about a gay man (using that here to mean exclusively attracted to other men). Like, I'm sure Jonathan Groff got weird feedback during Spring Awakening but I doubt he was using direct messages on facebook to turn fan interactions into parasocial friendships. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, aradia22 said:

As far as I know, Ripley is not though. I'd also be more likely to reserve judgment if we were talking about a gay man (using that here to mean exclusively attracted to other men). Like, I'm sure Jonathan Groff got weird feedback during Spring Awakening but I doubt he was using direct messages on facebook to turn fan interactions into parasocial friendships. 

True. I wasn’t entirely clear in my thought process. As you quoted, grooming isn’t exclusively about sexual assault. Plenty of people are guilty of grooming with zero intention to personally sexually abuse the victims. The fact that what she is specifically accused of would be generally seen as more of an issue if Ripley was a man reframes the conversation for me. I lean towards feeling that the behavior should be where the line is drawn rather than the sexuality of the people involved. Particularly when abuse situation are much more about power and control than anything else. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Guest

[aradia22]

I get that. To clarify, I certainly think Alice Ripley crossed boundaries and behaved inappropriately and over time I've come to see it as more malevolent as people emphasize how many young fans she did this with. But I also think the accusations came out of the gate hot with "grooming" (which the vast majority of people only think of as being tied to the intention of sexual abuse) and hints about lingerie or her using the word "sexy" among many other words to describe types of clothing to push people in the direction of thinking of her as sexually predatory. And it did muddle the conversation so now half of people are still calling her a pedophile and the other half have written this off because the evidence of sexual predation is so flimsy. 

I think queen bee/mean girl behavior is closer to identifying what happened. I'm not trying to minimize it but we don't have great language to describe what this is like outside of high school and outside of a family. I apparently don't spend enough time on reddit because now I can't remember the term but it reminds me of when a divorced parent is unburdening themselves to their child about their marital woes and even sexual things and treating the child like a mini-adult. It is recognized as emotionally abusive. And many of these girls did describe Ripley as a surrogate mother figure. Hopefully as we continue to have these conversation we stop normalizing these toxic behaviors. I do think on some level, Ripley probably had good intentions. She tried to make these girls feel heard. She tried to encourage them in their ambitions and to embrace their queerness and was probably accepting of their mental illness. I don't believe this was entirely nefarious. She's not a pick up artist. I think it's too simplistic to assume that someone abusive never does anything kind without an ulterior motive and it can make it more difficult to identify the abusive behavior if you think that way. But what these girls needed was a therapist. Not a much older sounding board who was also using them as an ego boost and trying to talk to many people at once and not emotionally equipped or capable of helping them navigate these issues appropriately.

I do think one thing getting lost is that Ripley financially benefitted from this. Maybe not in a meaningful way, idk. But I've had plenty of actors who I've complimented after a show tell me "I'll be at 54 Below next month" or "thanks, you should come see me in (insert Broadway show here)" or something like that and I'll smile and nod. It's something they all say. I might go if I'm genuinely interested in the actual show/concert but generally I don't because of the expense and because I was satisfied with the performance I just saw. But because these girls were so obsessed with her, they were going to her shows multiple times, following her around the country, going to different concert dates... With enough young women who were that devoted to her, it could add up in ticket sales, especially at a smaller cabaret venue where she could keep more of the money.

The other thing it reminds me of is a cult or more a cult of personality. You know those self-help people who convince you they can fix all your problems? It's not an accident that a lot of them foster a parasocial relationship rather than just laying out basic advice. Even if they're just selling books, there's a lot of second person language for a reason. You feel this reliance and dependency on this made up philosophy or way of living and then (unless they're trying to get you to buy books and seminar courses and tapes forever) you feel deflated when they have your money and they're out of your life and you still have all the same problems.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I get that. To clarify, I certainly think Alice Ripley crossed boundaries and behaved inappropriately and over time I've come to see it as more malevolent as people emphasize how many young fans she did this with. But I also think the accusations came out of the gate hot with "grooming" (which the vast majority of people only think of as being tied to the intention of sexual abuse) and hints about lingerie or her using the word "sexy" among many other words to describe types of clothing to push people in the direction of thinking of her as sexually predatory. And it did muddle the conversation so now half of people are still calling her a pedophile and the other half have written this off because the evidence of sexual predation is so flimsy. 

The first accuser was they one who described it as grooming though. I’m not sure if it muddled the issue or if it arrowed straight to the heart of the issue. Grooming is about manipulation of someone who is susceptible in order to make them more likely to be a victim. That seems pretty accurate to what happened so I suspect that the split would be exactly the same if the word grooming had never come up.  

 

3 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I think queen bee/mean girl behavior is closer to identifying what happened. I'm not trying to minimize it but we don't have great language to describe what this is like outside of high school and outside of a family.

 I think the most accurate term I’ve heard is a narcissist and their flying monkeys. One thing that really stood out to me was the accusation that she pitted her fans against each other. 

[aradia22]

Quote

One thing that really stood out to me was the accusation that she pitted her fans against each other. 

I find this a little confusing because what has been the most consistent about all the stories so far is Ripley isolating the girls from other people and interacting with them directly. Like, we haven't heard a lot about a fan club or a hierarchy or girls doing anything to each other aside from the weird claim in the first video of someone wanting to kill her. It does sound like Ripley would decide when someone was not in the inner circle anymore (whether for justified or unjustified reasons) and warn the others away from them. That's the plot of Odd Girl Out and Cyberbully and Janice Ian's origin story so I can certainly see that being interpreted as bullying and ostracization. 

Quote

I’m not sure if it muddled the issue or if it arrowed straight to the heart of the issue.

I do think there was an attempt to conflate it with sexual grooming because of those other details. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I find this a little confusing because what has been the most consistent about all the stories so far is Ripley isolating the girls from other people and interacting with them directly.

Do you have a link? I don’t think I’ve seen any references to her isolating the girls in that way. In general, isolating a person from meaningful support doesn’t mean complete isolation. The nature of the fan group would result in interactions on social media or at the stage door. 

6 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I do think there was an attempt to conflate it with sexual grooming because of those other details. 

By who? People misunderstanding the term isn’t really a reason not to use it when it is correct and when the minor feels like they were groomed. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Guest

[aradia22]

Quote

By who? People misunderstanding the term isn’t really a reason not to use it when it is correct and when the minor feels like they were groomed. 

I mentioned it in the post you were replying to before. The girls had details in their stories to imply sexual predation that, at least based on what we know for now, doesn't seem justified. I'm saying the girls themselves were creating confusion. Of course, this started with Brie Lynn who was initiating sexual conversations so maybe it was more pronounced with her than anyone else.

Quote

Do you have a link? I don’t think I’ve seen any references to her isolating the girls in that way.

Everything I've heard about is quoted in this thread. I just mean that none of the girls mention talking to each other on facebook or really discuss a fan community in any depth. But all the accusations so far are about Ripley meeting with them one on one in her dressing room or taking a trip with just one of them. Brie Lynn is the only one who mentions going to lunch in a group. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

I mentioned it in the post you were replying to before. The girls had details in their stories to imply sexual predation that, at least based on what we know for now, doesn't seem justified. I'm saying the girls themselves were creating confusion. Of course, this started with Brie Lynn who was initiating sexual conversations so maybe it was more pronounced with her than anyone else.

I guess my issue with this line of thought is that it puts the responsibility for how what they say is perceived on the girls. If what they are saying is true it really doesn’t matter if anyone else perceives it a sexual predation or simply inappropriate. 

 

9 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Everything I've heard about is quoted in this thread. I just mean that none of the girls mention talking to each other on facebook or really discuss a fan community in any depth. But all the accusations so far are about Ripley meeting with them one on one in her dressing room or taking a trip with just one of them. Brie Lynn is the only one who mentions going to lunch in a group. 

Except there are also allegations that she pitted them against each other. I don’t see how specific mentions of one-on-one encounters would preclude a larger fan community being involved. 

[Pink ranger]

 

10 hours ago, Dani said:

I guess my issue with this line of thought is that it puts the responsibility for how what they say is perceived on the girls. If what they are saying is true it really doesn’t matter if anyone else perceives it a sexual predation or simply inappropriate. 

 

No. Correct terminology use matter. Objectivity standards matter. Grooming has a precise meaning in law and someone can’t just make accusations of it based on behaviour that doesn't meet the criteria for that crime. That’s not justice.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Pink ranger
Add quote

[GaT]

14 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I think queen bee/mean girl behavior is closer to identifying what happened. I'm not trying to minimize it but we don't have great language to describe what this is like outside of high school and outside of a family.

This is exactly what it sounds like to me. the high school popular girl pretending to make friends with the unpopular girl so she'll have someone to run errands & admire her.

[SunnyBeBe]

Kanye is so frustrating. His decision to bring in individuals who have recently been called out for hateful and horrible behavior, to celebrate with his project boggles the brain.  My next thought is whether he’s mentally competent to be held responsible.  I do wonder.  He needs some consequences regardless.  
 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/evan-rachel-wood-gives-marilyn-232004988.html

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[GaT]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Kanye is so frustrating. His decision to bring in individuals who have recently been called out for hateful and horrible behavior, to celebrate with his project boggles the brain.  My next thought is whether he’s mentally competent to be held responsible.  I do wonder.  He needs some consequences regardless.  
 

https://www.yahoo.com/now/evan-rachel-wood-gives-marilyn-232004988.html

 

 

Dababy & Marilyn Manson are both on his "Donda" album, that's why they were at the event. It does make you wonder about Kanye's ability to read a room though, I don't know when whatever they did on the album happened, but now is not the time to be associating with either of them.

[Zella]

12 minutes ago, GaT said:

Dababy & Marilyn Manson are both on his "Donda" album, that's why they were at the event. It does make you wonder about Kanye's ability to read a room though, I don't know when whatever they did on the album happened, but now is not the time to be associating with either of them.

But they weren't on the album until the last minute because they weren't part of either of the previous listening parties prior to last week's final one. So, they were literally just added in the past couple of weeks. It's not like they worked on before the scandals broke and the timing for the album drop was just inconvenient. I think Kanye added them for the sole purpose of being inflammatory. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Zella

[SunnyBeBe]

16 minutes ago, GaT said:

Dababy & Marilyn Manson are both on his "Donda" album, that's why they were at the event. It does make you wonder about Kanye's ability to read a room though, I don't know when whatever they did on the album happened, but now is not the time to be associating with either of them.

I thought I read that Manson was not on the album.  Hmmmm…..it is sad to summon them despite their offensive actions.  Anything for attention I suppose.  ……

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/9621109/marilyn-manson-appears-kanye-west-donda-album/

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought I read that Manson was not on the album.  Hmmmm…..it is sad to summon them despite their offensive actions.  Anything for attention I suppose.  

He and Dababy--Jesus, I just cannot with that name--are both on the same song. 

[GaT]

30 minutes ago, Zella said:

But they weren't on the album until the last minute because they weren't part of either of the previous listening parties prior to last week's final one. So, they were literally just added in the past couple of weeks. It's not like they worked on before the scandals broke and the timing for the album drop was just inconvenient. I think Kanye added them for the sole purpose of being inflammatory. 

Could be, just part of Kanye's "free thinking" world.

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, GaT said:

Could be, just part of Kanye's "free thinking" world.

This whole rollout has been a real shit show. I'm not a Kanye fan, but I've been following it for weeks because it was so bizarre. My theory for a while has been that he's in the middle of another mental health crisis that's not being treated, though I'm sure there's additional publicity stunt/being provocative for the sake of being provocative as motivation thrown in there too. 

This is a fairly  condensed summary of latest events, including Dababy and Marilyn Manson being added and drama ensuing as Kanye is now claiming it was released without his consent. He also seemed hellbent on Dababy being on the record . . . for reasons: https://www.avclub.com/kanye-west-says-universal-released-donda-without-his-ap-1847580899 

I'd also forgotten that Chris Brown is on it, though his participating has been longer-lasting, so add another abuser as present to the list. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Zella

[BlackberryJam]

Maybe Kanye needs placed under a conservatorship. ;)

[GaT]

59 minutes ago, Zella said:

He also seemed hellbent on Dababy being on the record . . . for reasons:

Dababy was the only celebrity who publicly said they would vote for him for President.

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Maybe Kanye needs placed under a conservatorship. ;)

I hear Britney's dad is available....

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Maybe Kanye needs placed under a conservatorship. ;)

Of course he doesn't. He's a man!

No matter how erratic his decision-making, how unpredictable his moods, how dangerous and unstable he seems to be, it's not like he's a woman or anything.

I don't know, I've never seen or heard anything from Kanye West that helps me understand why he's famous at all. But here he is, being celebrated to the skies because he released an album that he's apparently spent years on.