S08.E06: Woo-Woo Lights and an Onside Kick

[jewel21]

Quote

Bonnie and the ladies indulge Jill when she goes to extremes to get her relationship with Andy back on track.

Airdate: 01/21/2021

[greekmom]

So mad at show. I liked Jill and Andy together.

She deserves someone great.

[DanaK]

Both funny and sad tonight

[Packerbrewerbadger]

I loved Andy and Jill, tho I can see Andy’s point.  Please have them get back together 🙏

[Kiddvideo]

If he hadn’t made a decision before he certainly wasn’t going to stay after finding Jill stalking him. Anyone think to stop her rather than mock Marjorie? Swapping Twizzlers as currency was funny.

[AnimeMania]

3 seconds, it seems like a waste to bring Andy on to the show, especially if it might be his last appearance.

[Harvey]

LOL, that line about Burt eating his twin in the womb was so out of the blue and random 😄 I loved Bonnie's reaction to it.

I liked that Bonnie was there for Jill, just like Jill was there for her in that one episode when she was spying on Adam. Their scene in the car when Jill tells Bonnie that it takes 5 penises to get over a guy still makes me smile when I think of it.

Also, congrats on the promotion, Wendy ❤️

[iMonrey]

It's actually kind of sad that even without drugs or alcohol they're still kind of messed up. 

I'm sure Jill can be "a bit much" but it seems to me that Andy isn't suited to a serious relationship if his big gripe was that he didn't want to talk about his feelings. Has he never met a woman before?

[bad things are bad]

Andy's other sitcom bit the dust (deservedly), it would be nice to keep him as a character. He gives Adam a male to interact with on occasion. 

[Blakeston]

I felt bad for Jill at the beginning of the episode, but by the end I was rooting for Andy to leave her. Stalking him so conspicuously really showed what a mess she is. (And I can buy that Jill and Bonnie might think it was a good idea to follow him around, but I would have expected Tammy to have more sense than that.)

Jill needs to do a lot of work on herself before she's ready for a serious relationship.

Also, the way that Bonnie physically bullies her paraplegic husband remains disturbing, and I don't find it nearly as funny as the writers seem to think it is.

[jewel21]

Just a quick reminder that politics are a no-no here on Primetimer, even in the form of memes. Site Rules for anyone who is uncertain of the rules. 

[nodorothyparker]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm sure Jill can be "a bit much" but it seems to me that Andy isn't suited to a serious relationship if his big gripe was that he didn't want to talk about his feelings.

Andy's issue wasn't that Jill wanted to talk about feelings, it's that she wanted to talk about feelings RIGHT NOW. This happened in the episode where Bonnie was blowing about her longterm relationship with her husband moving to a "higher level" and Jill basically insisted they ramp up to that as well RIGHT NOW. That can be "too much" for some people even before you throw in the stalking and steamrolling over Andy's attempts to set some boundaries and take a breather.

This one was a tough one to watch and really drove home what messes these women are, all the joking aside. It's not funny watching someone spiral the way Jill was spiraling, making up worst case scenarios about a woman she'd never met and knew nothing about and all but demanding that everyone else go along with it. There's something really self-abasing about that kind of behavior that Jill was showing flashes of recognizing but then continued on with anyway because apparently in all of her many trips through rehab and AA she hasn't learned any better coping skills.

Just as bad was how her bad behavior seemed to be exposing all of Bonnie's nasty edges as well. I hate that I feel like I can see the show setting up a story where it becomes impossible to ignore or explain away anymore Bonnie being at least borderline abusive of Adam, but it feels increasingly like that's where they're heading even with Bonnie being the show's only remaining lead. 

[Grizzly]

I was hopeful that Jill showed some self awareness when she said she gave her housekeeper her old range rover because she "put that woman through hell." Amazing that she could see someone else's point of view.

[Winston Wolfe]

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

This one was a tough one to watch and really drove home what messes these women are, all the joking aside.

Recently had a conversation with a friend who occasionally watches Mom and she said the exact same thing. Other than Marjorie (and maybe Wendy) none of them seem to be really benefiting from AA and Jill appears to have made no progress at all. Bonnie seemed to have been en route to becoming a better person, but has backslid a bit lately. Christy probably did good getting away from those flaming messes.

[ctlady]

3 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Other than Marjorie (and maybe Wendy) none of them seem to be really benefiting from AA

And here's where I can segue into my "why isn't Wendy being featured more" gripe.  Now that Christy is gone, the writers have less people to spread around the A and B plot, but they still relegate Wendy to an afterthought with throw-away lines, even though they're making her a big more vocal.

We now learn that she's head nurse and has moved, but her close knit group of female AA friends have no idea either of those things happened.  Other than Marjorie and Tammy, Jill and Bonnie are two of the most self-absorbed individuals and absolutely rotten friends.  I'm sick of Jill's drama (baby, boyfriend, divorce, eating, shopping - whatever) and, like a poster said above, Bonnie is downright cruel when it comes to manipulating Adam.  Wendy is a core member of the group and has never had either an A or B plot storyline dedicated to her.  Guest stars have more screen time than her

I think the writer can use this as a way to give Wendy a story where we find out she's been secretly hiding depression to where she may even contemplate or try to attempt suicide.  She has no close family, no husband, children, boyfriend, probably now lives on her own since she's moved and her AA friends still have no idea who she is.  It's a recipe for a very disastrous situation that the show can explore

[Blakeston]

I think Jill's made some progress. She's been sober for a decent amount of time now, she's able to maintain close friendships, she isn't hung up on what rich society people think of her anymore, and the other women have been helping her become less selfish. (Like when she ended up donating all that money to the charity for young girls.)

It's just that she still has a long, long way to go.

[DXD526]

This looks like an UO, but I thought Andy was a big pain in the butt and I won't miss him. It seemed like every time he was in a scene he was eating or complaining, or both. It got to the point where all he got from me was an eyeroll when he showed up. Boy, bye. 

Yes, these people are messed up, even though they're clean and sober. I always thought that not drinking or drugging for people like this was an end unto itself. They don't stay clean to 'improve' themselves, beyond the fact that not being drunk or high all the time is, in itself, an improvement. If they have character or emotional issues, that has to be worked on separately. Just keeping their addictions under control is a big accomplishment.

[iMonrey]

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Andy's issue wasn't that Jill wanted to talk about feelings, it's that she wanted to talk about feelings RIGHT NOW. This happened in the episode where Bonnie was blowing about her longterm relationship with her husband moving to a "higher level" and Jill basically insisted they ramp up to that as well RIGHT NOW. That can be "too much" for some people even before you throw in the stalking and steamrolling over Andy's attempts to set some boundaries and take a breather.

Agreed - I mean, there's no question Jill's got issues and was way too obsessive. But Andy told Adam when he gets home from work all he wants to do is take a shower and veg out in front of the TV. That's fine when you're a bachelor but when you're living with someone you're going to have interaction with them. And to expect otherwise means you probably shouldn't be in a relationship. If Jill walked in on him in the shower and wanted to talk about their relationship right then and there, it's understandable for him to say "Not now I'm busy." Not "let's take a break from each other." I don't know, maybe that was the last straw for him in a long line of grievances, but he still strikes me as someone who shouldn't be in a serious relationship in the first place.

Quote

And here's where I can segue into my "why isn't Wendy being featured more" gripe.  Now that Christy is gone, the writers have less people to spread around the A and B plot, but they still relegate Wendy to an afterthought with throw-away lines, even though they're making her a big more vocal.

I don't understand this either. She's in the opening credits as one of five in the main ensemble and yet she's little more than a glorified extra. I don't know if the writers just don't find the character interesting or if they don't like the actress or if they're just stuck in a formula.

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Recently had a conversation with a friend who occasionally watches Mom and she said the exact same thing. Other than Marjorie (and maybe Wendy) none of them seem to be really benefiting from AA and Jill appears to have made no progress at all. Bonnie seemed to have been en route to becoming a better person, but has backslid a bit lately. Christy probably did good getting away from those flaming messes.

It's really noticeable when you watch the current run and then see early seasons in syndication. The show has spent a ton of time the last couple of seasons on Bonnie's personal "growth" and yet comparing her relationship with Alvin (and particularly when they talk about what she was like when they were together) to her marriage to Adam, not all that much as you'd might think has really changed. In one episode I caught early this morning, Alvin joked about her smashing in a car window he was sitting next to and his missing toe she shot off. Sure, it's all framed as a joke that's pretty funning in the telling but I can't help but think we'd find it a whole lot less funny if we were watching it happen in real time. I wasn't all that gung-ho about jumping on the Bonnie's abusing Adam train, but more and more I watch some of these scenes and I can see it. I like William Fichtner a lot and think he has a terrific easy chemistry with Allison Janney, but part of me wonders if we would have gotten scenes of her shoving his wheelchair into things or taking it away from him in a fight if Adam was played by a handicapped actor who could better weigh in on the power issues of this.

Yes, Jill has done better, at least in acknowledging that other people exist and have feelings and problems too. But that's not a super high bar. She admitted when we met her to actively stalking her ex-husband and the woman who became his wife. Jill really is a classic example of the person who thought if she just stopped drinking all the other problems would fix themselves and instead found out she still has the all the same problems but as a person who doesn't drink.

 

[Winston Wolfe]

19 minutes ago, DXD526 said:

Yes, these people are messed up, even though they're clean and sober. I always thought that not drinking or drugging for people like this was an end unto itself. They don't stay clean to 'improve' themselves, beyond the fact that not being drunk or high all the time is, in itself, an improvement. If they have character or emotional issues, that has to be worked on separately. Just keeping their addictions under control is a big accomplishment.

I'm not a clinician, but to me there's a real connection. When Christy was a regular, it seemed like it only took maybe one stressful event to kick her gambling problem into gear, then she had to join GA too. It's like Les Brown (the motivational speaker) said about food addiction, "it's not what you're eating, but what's eating you). Great that they're keeping their addictions under control, but clearly Jill and Bonnie have other issues. Bravo for Bonnie going to therapy, but as another poster said, she's got a long way to go.

[Winston Wolfe]

3 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Jill really is a classic example of the person who thought if she just stopped drinking all the other problems would fix themselves and instead found out she still has the all the same problems but as a person who doesn't drink.

Exactly. Being booze free hasn't made her a better or happier person. Andy wasn't perfect, but seemed like a decent enough guy (maybe a little clueless, but a lot of us are, heh) and he made an effort. Jill would be a handful for any guy, and without some changes, her relationships with men probably won't have much of a chance.

[nodorothyparker]

I keep thinking about that scene last season where Jill all but ordered Andy to impregnate her because she remembered again that her biological clock was running down. For Andy, it came entirely out of the blue. She had to be told outright that he also had a say in that decision, and only then did they actually discuss the possibility of having children. In the scenes following the breakup, even Marjorie as the usual voice of reason was framing it entirely as proof that Jill could love someone again and would find someone again. Part of that I'm sure was about not wanting to poke the bear while the wound was still fresh.  But without taking a long hard critical look at herself and doing the work there, the next relationship probably isn't going to go any better. This wasn't the first episode where Jill was engaging in boundary stomping and stalking behavior, and we've already seen that Jill tends toward the extreme anyway about trying to fill the hole inside her with the person of the moment, whether it be a boyfriend or a foster child.

[MissLucas]

The show's premise was always hard to sell as comedy and now in its eight season it's not getting any easier. We want to see character growth yet the old rule that happy people don't provide a lot of interesting story material still applies. The writers are caught between a rock and a hard place.

That said there's still a lot of material to mine when it comes to Wendy and to a certain degree with Tammy, who more often than not is used for comic relief (like this week's opener). Bonnie has made progress even though she still has plenty of dark stuff going on. But Jill is stalling, she went through several pivotal plot points but then her character was more or less reset. My main gripe is that she's still floundering without a job or a meaningful activity although I remember at least two occasions where such possibilities were raised. Her days are full of yoga classes and shopping sprees and that's more frustrating to watch than her quest for true love.

 

[Harvey]

I want to see Trevor again 😞

[bichonblitz]

11 hours ago, ctlady said:

We now learn that she's head nurse and has moved, but her close knit group of female AA friends have no idea either of those things happened

Aside from having no idea, the friends don't seem to care about Wendy at all. She's an afterthought to them and they often act like she's annoying them every time she talks. It's even more noticable to me now that Christy's gone.  I'm not liking it. 

[Winston Wolfe]

3 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

14 hours ago, ctlady said:

We now learn that she's head nurse and has moved, but her close knit group of female AA friends have no idea either of those things happened

Aside from having no idea, the friends don't seem to care about Wendy at all. She's an afterthought to them and they often act like she's annoying them every time she talks. It's even more noticable to me now that Christy's gone.  I'm not liking it. 

Almost from day one of this show, Wendy was placed in the "sad sack/team mascot" role. The writers don't do anything with the character unless its to advance someone else's "A" or "B" story. Have we ever even seen any of her family? I can't remember.

[Blakeston]

We've never seen Wendy's family. There was one episode a few seasons ago (I think?) when she mentioned that she was raised by two mothers, and that she spent her childhood traveling around the Florida Keys in their houseboat. And we know that her family has mob connections.

And in one episode, we got to meet her housemates, who also work in medicine and tell gross stories about their patients.

I think the writers created the character so that she could say clueless things now and then, and be the butt of "jokes" about how no one listens to her or treats her nicely.

They've established that she's a successful person with an interesting life (she has a Wikipedia page!), but part of the "joke" is that the other women dismiss her even when she has something interesting to say.

I don't find those jokes particularly funny, but apparently the writers do. I think they're under the impression that actually seeing what her life is like would ruin her "mystique," and defeat the purpose of her character. Which is a shame, because there's a lot more they could do with her.

[bichonblitz]

12 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Almost from day one of this show, Wendy was placed in the "sad sack/team mascot" role.

She has the most successful career of any of them, too. The rest of them aside from Jill and her money are losers compared to her. I don't get why the writers choose to depict her like this. 

[SmithW6079]

On 1/22/2021 at 7:45 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Just as bad was how her bad behavior seemed to be exposing all of Bonnie's nasty edges as well. I hate that I feel like I can see the show setting up a story where it becomes impossible to ignore or explain away anymore Bonnie being at least borderline abusive of Adam, but it feels increasingly like that's where they're heading even with Bonnie being the show's only remaining lead. 

I've thought for a while that Bonnie's relationship with Adam is on the abusive side. She constantly belittles him and I hope that one day he just decides enough is enough and rolls out on her.

I think Jill is so used to buying everything she wants that she doesn't really know how to react to other people. For all their support, her friends really just enable her bad behavior, and she was really over the top with the tailing Andy all night, especially when joined by Bonnie and Tammy and Wendy.

[sugarbaker design]

On 1/23/2021 at 12:33 PM, Winston Wolfe said:

Exactly. Being booze free hasn't made her a better or happier person. Andy wasn't perfect, but seemed like a decent enough guy (maybe a little clueless, but a lot of us are, heh) and he made an effort. Jill would be a handful for any guy, and without some changes, her relationships with men probably won't have much of a chance.

FWIW, alcohol is only mentioned in the first of AA's twelve steps.  The remaining eleven are about asking for help, making an inventory, listing your character defects, making amends, prayer, meditation and helping others.  I've watched since the show started, and I can't recall any scenes that mention making an inventory, making amends, praying or meditating.

[Winston Wolfe]

29 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

FWIW, alcohol is only mentioned in the first of AA's twelve steps.  The remaining eleven are about asking for help, making an inventory, listing your character defects, making amends, prayer, meditation and helping others.  I've watched since the show started, and I can't recall any scenes that mention making an inventory, making amends, praying or meditating.

Thanks for that sugarbaker design! Of the group, Marjorie is the only one that mentions a higher power with any regularity, and that may have been three times over eight years. Your post really validates my and my BFFs take that AA really hasn't made most of the group better people.

22 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

On 1/24/2021 at 2:15 AM, Winston Wolfe said:

Almost from day one of this show, Wendy was placed in the "sad sack/team mascot" role.

She has the most successful career of any of them, too. The rest of them aside from Jill and her money are losers compared to her. I don't get why the writers choose to depict her like this. 

I wonder of her friends realize that and there's some sub-conscious resentment? Maybe that's why there are so dismissive and marginalize her?

Edited January 25, 2021 by Winston Wolfe

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Your post really validates my and my BFFs take that AA really hasn't made most of the group better people.

Going to AA and not working the steps is the same as going to the gym and not using the equipment.  You can't blame the gym.

[Winston Wolfe]

11 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Going to AA and not working the steps is the same as going to the gym and not using the equipment.  You can't blame the gym.

Agreed. The thought that I've been attempting to convey (perhaps not so articulately) is that the ladies are not optimizing the program.

[sugarbaker design]

13 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Agreed. The thought that I've been attempting to convey (perhaps not so articulately) is that the ladies are not optimizing the program.

Yes!

[iMonrey]

Quote

The show's premise was always hard to sell as comedy and now in its eight season it's not getting any easier. We want to see character growth yet the old rule that happy people don't provide a lot of interesting story material still applies. The writers are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Character growth isn't exactly the hallmark of a Chuck Lorre series. Judging by Two and a Half Men the characters actually devolve over the seasons into more two-dimensional cartoons. I'd say the sole exception to this was Big Bang Theory, and even there only with certain characters. 

[ch1]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Character growth isn't exactly the hallmark of a Chuck Lorre series. Judging by Two and a Half Men the characters actually devolve over the seasons into more two-dimensional cartoons. I'd say the sole exception to this was Big Bang Theory, and even there only with certain characters. 

We were seeing this with Christy.  

I also think this happens to many characters in long running shows.  To me it’s a sign to wrap things up.

[Winston Wolfe]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Character growth isn't exactly the hallmark of a Chuck Lorre series. Judging by Two and a Half Men the characters actually devolve over the seasons into more two-dimensional cartoons. I'd say the sole exception to this was Big Bang Theory, and even there only with certain characters. 

With Big Bang Theory they did an exceptional job of wrapping up Leonard's character growth arc in Season 12. Guess that was because Johnny Galecki was the star.

[ams1001]

6 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

FWIW, alcohol is only mentioned in the first of AA's twelve steps.  The remaining eleven are about asking for help, making an inventory, listing your character defects, making amends, prayer, meditation and helping others.  I've watched since the show started, and I can't recall any scenes that mention making an inventory, making amends, praying or meditating.

They've done amends here and there, but usually it seems to be a joke (for the audience) and done somewhat grudgingly on the part of the character in question (or just to make them feel better, not the person they're making the amends to).

[wendyg]

On 1/23/2021 at 1:37 PM, Winston Wolfe said:

none of them seem to be really benefiting from AA

AA is keeping them *sober*. That's the big win, all by itself.

[sleepysuzy]

I would really love to see a Step Study incorporated into this show. As other have said, they do step one (admitting the problem), and some really weak amends. Otherwise, they don't seem to do much but group shares and meet with sponsors. That is not how AA (or other 12 step programs) work in the long-term.

They have set up the characters in a way where this could really work, too. I see Wendy as someone who probably is actually working the steps separately from the others. Bonnie was going to therapy, but never followed through otherwise. I think Bonnie and Jill, and maybe even Marjorie, have some signs of codependency, which is why they are more interested in each other's drama-filled lives than Wendy's responsible job and success. Wendy doesn't "need" them to "fix" her. Tammy seems to fit with the crazy/drama clique only because of her past incarceration and subsequent lack of social development. We've seen glimpses of her growing past the others as she worked with the girls in the group home. I would love to see Tammy, Wendy, and Marjorie start to pull away from Bonnie and Jill until thise two start to realize that the damage underlying their addictions still needs to really be addressed long-term. 

[possibilities]

This show really did develop the characters and let them grow a lot in the beginning. But then it stalled. I wonder if that reflects a choice for the show or is just a reflection of where the writers are in their own awareness and/or recovery stories of their own.

I know a lot of people who stall in their recoveries. It's not unrealistic. But I'd still love to see them explore it more.

[Blakeston]

This is an interesting discussion. My husband described Bonnie as a "dry drunk" a few years ago, and even though she's made progress since then, I still think there's truth to it.

She's so impulsive and sneaky. Her behavior just isn't consistent with the mindset encouraged by AA (or Marjorie, for that matter).

[WhitneyWhit]

This was the first episode that made me miss Christy because 1) she wouldn't have went a long with stalking Andy 2)she would have tried to stop it and 3) if she couldn't, she would have gotten Marjorie involved much sooner to put a stop to that foolishness.

Jill is obviously suffering from abandonment issues: her mother committed suicide, her husband left her, so IMO her behavior wasn't born out of jealousy, but fear. It would be interesting if the show could have her address this with Trevor. It's a very real thing and can be crippling. I was actually really angry at Tammy and Bonnie for egging her on.

[Winston Wolfe]

On 1/27/2021 at 6:50 AM, sleepysuzy said:

I see Wendy as someone who probably is actually working the steps separately from the others.

Love this post, and your theory. Overall Wendy seems to complain the least and be the most functional of the group. You might be on to the reason why. Gee, I've really become Team Wendy.

On 1/27/2021 at 6:50 AM, sleepysuzy said:

Tammy seems to fit with the crazy/drama clique only because of her past incarceration and subsequent lack of social development.

Tammy and Jill are definitively the two Drama Queens of the group and that seems to be drawing them together.

[Deskisamess]

On 1/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, Blakeston said:

This is an interesting discussion. My husband described Bonnie as a "dry drunk" a few years ago, and even though she's made progress since then, I still think there's truth to it.

She's so impulsive and sneaky. Her behavior just isn't consistent with the mindset encouraged by AA (or Marjorie, for that matter).

You took the words right out of my mouth. Instead of getting better, Bonnie just stays the same mean sober person. I get that addicts want to support each other, but her treatment of Marjorie is just horrible. That the other tolerate it is a total downer. "Dry Drunk" hits the nail in the head. It should be addressed.

It was disappointing when Christy left the show, especially since the writers never gave her a "win" with a boyfriend, then jumped the shark with her winning a full ride to Georgetown Law School. I think the show needs Christy to balance Bonnie.

The stalking of Andy was cringworthy. That Bonnie and Tammy encouraged it was terrible, especially Bonnie.