S05.E04: Honestly

[himela]

By the way I think that Kate and Ellie were not at the same place shooting the scene outside the car. If you notice we never see them next to each other, we only see one and then the other. I'm not even sure they were together at the scene at the doctor, I'll have to rewatch. Did someone notice?

[CrystalBlue]

I don't think Kate and Toby are going through an actual adoption agency.  It's all on the Internet and cell phone communications.  Another red flag.

[debraran]

4 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

I felt the same way. The Director kept asking him to start over but without any direction at all so he never knew what he was doing wrong. He should have just asked him. I also got the impression the director is just an asshole who probably looks down on Kevin due to his Manny role.

Ken Olin said there are directors like him, some use the coddling style, some are mixed, some are awful, they do what some do in interviews to see you sweat, see what you have. Ken based it on one he had. Some are just jerks, but some really want you to grow.

I was never a big Tom Cruise fan but I did like Paul Newman and I remember an old interview with him and his wife. They thought doing plays would make him even a better actor or acting school when he was starting out. He had potential but he didn't do it because he didn't have too. What they saw he didn't need to hone.  He was handsome and given movies and paid well anyway. Kevin in a way would be a Cruise. The old school acting today is lost for many, they walk through scripts and it might be that he thinks Kevin runs on looks and body and isn't very deep.

Edited November 20, 2020 by debraran

[Crs97]

5 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

He should have just asked him.

Kevin did ask several times if the director had a specific note for him of what he wanted.  That is when the director told him his questions were pulling him from the scene and Kevin retorted that the director was the one pulling him from the scene by making him just repeat the line (bad paraphrase).  The director was a jerk.

[circumvent]

19 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Deja had been living in a car with an extremely dysfunctional mother, and then living in an abusive foster home, but then she gets adopted by Randall and within a year her grades are perfect.

I agree that the timing is off. she caught up too soon but I have seen it happening. One person that I am thinking about, who has a chronic and somewhat debilitating condition, was abused by her mother until leaving home as a teen, was homeless for a while - dumpster diving homeless - and managed to get her life back together with the help of a couple of friends and was a very accomplished student - pre-med. Not that grades say much about people's skills but for many, supports do make a difference. 

[Chatty Cake]

I thought the strip tease was super cheesy. If Randall had done it on purpose it would have been funny. The fact that he put a teen in charge of recording his vlog makes him look stupid. The scene where he comes home and Beth is making fun of him - cringe. Something about the whole family and their perfectly funny banter is irritating as crap. 

 

[Tango64]

The bio mom still seems super sketchy to me. When she was telling the story of why she doesn't like the name Chloe, it all sounded to me like someone who is proud of having a vivid imagination and being able to make up a story on the spot. She seemed almost giddy telling the story, like she was so happy with herself for creating such a convincing and funny tale in the 10 minutes since Kate mentioned the name.

And of course, it gave her the ability to knock Kate back on her heels a bit, to make Kate grovel and apologize, giving the bio mom more leverage and bolstering her status in their relationship. There are people who are very good at that sort of thing.

 

[Marley]

On 11/19/2020 at 2:18 AM, debraran said:

There are directors like that and Ken Olin had one. You have to learn to adjust to their way to getting things out of you. He based it on that from this interview:

.That's why I loved doing that scene, because I thought was so funny. I know directors like that. And having been an actor, that approach to actors I find that really funny because it's so abusive, in such a bulls--- way. But that way of mindf---ing actors is a technique.

Justin's reaction doesn't tell you how you're supposed to react, because this director doesn't want you to know how to react. It's a very deliberate form of a power move. I've worked with a director whose favorite book was The Art of War. That's how you see it, and maybe that's what you need to do to be that kind of a director. But Kevin's reaction to it, which is so almost inscrutable, is exactly right… And if anything, what we're supposed to take from that is, Kevin has to figure it out for himself. Because this guy is not going to tell him. Kevin needs to find where he stands.

He also said about Kevin and Randall " In terms of acting, you need that empathy and you need to explore that,” Olin said. “You need to be willing to investigate that. And you’ll see, actually in the next episode that I’m going to direct (Episode 8), where we’re going is that eventually Kevin and Randall, there will be a meeting of their minds and where they are… This will come back, because of something Kate said in Episode 4 that does reverberate. It ripples in Kevin, and we’re able to then pick it up again in Episode 8 and you go, ‘Wow, that’s really interesting.’”

So I hope some more laughs but I don't see too many. I feel seeing Kevin and Randall really seeing each other will be nice and we all know Kevin gets the Oscar and I hope before his Mom is too sick (maybe this movie?) Supporting actor? 

I just really feel bad if Laurel is dead because losing you bio dad so quickly and then knowing your bio mom was alive most of your life and then lost....that's over the top melodrama. There are not enough therapists.

 

Oh haha a director being a jerk is a technique. We are supposed to care about this as a viewing audience? Lol they get ppl who watch this show don’t all live in Hollywood right. Ugh.

Ill say this and it’s prob rude but I hate Déjà. Her character is annoying and hasn’t brought anything to the show. Malik sucks too. Give me a break he’s a teen dad but is straight A student but gonna be a chef/businessman lol ok.

All Randall’s storylines since he went to Philly have sucked. I wish the character never went there. Also get over William Randall he wasn’t a saint holy fuck.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Marley

[doodlebug]

On 11/19/2020 at 12:29 AM, txhorns79 said:

I do feel like someone from the adoption agency would be serving as some kind of intermediary here.  They would be there, if for nothing else, than to try and help keep everyone's expectations in check.  Maybe that is not normally the case (I've never been involved in an adoption), but it feels like that is needed here. 

Usually, in the case of a private adoption where the mother selects the prospective parents, the parties do not meet in person for the first time without a counselor with them.  They usually set a meeting at the offices of the agency brokering the adoption and the mother and potential parents meet together with the adoption coordinator there.  They generally do not encourage the parties to exchange phone numbers or identifying info initially, in case something goes wrong and one or the other changes their mind.  It's only after the groundwork has been laid that they might meet privately.

Most planned adoptions, probably well over 90%, never take place because the birth mother changes her mind.   So, if that is what happens on the show, it is the most realistic outcome.

[Boo Boo]

10 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

I can't see this going well for them. I also think it is unfair on the pregnant woman's other child, wouldn't that kid be expecting a brother or sister? How is she going to explain it to them when no baby comes home?

I get being tough on someone but you have to offer them some kind of lifeline. Just having someone repeat a line over and over isn't helpful. 

I mostly watch old movies and they did it so much better than now. The acting was better, the scripts, everything really I agree the old way is lost to many now. 

 

That she already had a kid is another reason I though this birth mother story was stupid.  First off, she's old enough to understand her contraception options.  Second, she's been through childbirth.  It seems highly unlikely to me that she would go through a birth and then give up her kid's half sister.

 

[CrystalBlue]

1 hour ago, Boo Boo said:

That she already had a kid is another reason I though this birth mother story was stupid.  First off, she's old enough to understand her contraception options.  Second, she's been through childbirth.  It seems highly unlikely to me that she would go through a birth and then give up her kid's half sister.

 

I wonder if this is an arrangement where the prospective adoptive parents pay for all of bio mother's expenses through and including the delivery, then bio mom changes her mind at the last minute (I believe they have a 30-day waiting period for it to be finalized after the birth) and then Ellie gets her new baby and her medical bills paid.  If the Damons sue, if they even can because of a signed contract or whatever, so what because you can't get blood from a turnip.  doodlebug says that it's more common that I realized that the mother changes her mind.

[Neurochick]

I don't get the hate for Deja or Malik.  I love seeing young black people on my TV, the more the merrier.  😀

[MBayGal]

Did Randall have a personality transplant?  I don’t recall him singing and dancing around the house or at any family gatherings, but when he changes in his office he’s suddenly got these moves!  It seemed ridiculous to me. And Of Course Malik is a straight A student, perfect uber-responsible father, headed for an Ivy, and gets offered a job at City Hall. 
The whole SEAsian man and his granddaughter being related to Randall’s mother gives me eyestrain from rolling my eyes so hard.  

Have we ever seen Kate pick baby Jack up from the floor or his playpen? not that I can recall, and I’m not sure she could.  I would be not surprised if the bio mom was scamming them, because I can’t imagine them being a mom’s first choice.

More Kevin and Madison, more Rebecca and Miguel, less Jack, and no more weird new plot lines, please!!!

[bros402]

On 11/19/2020 at 5:37 AM, circumvent said:

Sometimes the characters don't say things literally, it is a writer's thing to tell a story. It is debatable if it works or not, it worked for me. Malik was listing all the things he needs to do but it doesn't necessarily mean that he does that everyday, in that order. It is like medical dramas when doctors just order a bunch of tests for everyone, no matter what the suspected diagnosis might be.

Kevin's director was just a narcissistic ass. Directing means you give feedback. He gave none, positive or negative. His "are you going to be great" speech was an empty platitude (platitudes are already empty, so that line was pure bullshit).

I am with Toby. Why O-B-G-Y-N? But we do use reduced words: Gastro, Cardio, ENT... My beef is that it should be Obgyn, one word, not spelled out. Maybe we are just too lazy to say big/long words.

I liked the episode. It weaved well the timelines and how Kevin does listen, how he learns.

ENT is also said by the letters.

On 11/19/2020 at 7:33 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

My uncle's an OBGYN and he says the letters.

On 11/19/2020 at 3:51 PM, PRgal said:

The director is likely one of those artsy types who look down on TV - especially SITCOM - actors.  But why was Kevin picked?  Did the others suck even more?

Remember Kevin was in a movie by Ron Howard?

[chocolatine]

33 minutes ago, bros402 said:

Remember Kevin was in a movie by Ron Howard?

And I'm sure that Ron, down-to-earth guy that he seems to be, did not insist that Kevin call said movie a "film."

[circumvent]

4 hours ago, bros402 said:

ENT is also said by the letters.

Yes, and that's not the technical name of the practice either. The correct term would be Otolaryngologist, which was changed to Ear, nose, throat doctor, which was abbreviated to ENT. We don't like words that take longer to say, we don't like to say all the words, haha

[Chatty Cake]

Sterling looks great no doubt. If he had done the dance on purpose it would have been funnier since that’s more of a Kevin type of behavior.  Randall is still too buttoned up to do put himself on display on purpose despite having an amazing body.

Kates two brothers with perfect bodies must be difficult on her. Did they ever say what lead her to her current size? The flashbacks show a more typical teen always wanting to be thinner but she didn’t look like she was on her way to being very obese.

[Tango64]

2 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

Did they ever say what lead her to her current size? The flashbacks show a more typical teen always wanting to be thinner but she didn’t look like she was on her way to being very obese.

She gained rapidly after Jack's death, presumably from depression. They've referenced it a few times.

[debraran]

58 minutes ago, Tango64 said:

She gained rapidly after Jack's death, presumably from depression. They've referenced it a few times.

You can go from a size 10-12 to plus size in a few years but her family watched her do what they are alluding too and thought she didn't need help? You can't force a grown women but Kevin was her base and it must have been hard for him because it effected her mental health and physical health. We are talking over 200 pounds in a few years.  When the original contract had weight loss I think they wanted her to go through a cathartic period and find why it happened and Chrissy and Kate both lost. But I think they realized they can't address something like that in a contract and decided to write around it. But in reality they don't. My biggest gripe is with Kate, she was a spoiled but normal kid, who really had no interests but she sang well.  She didn't seem to have any hobbies or areas of growth. They made her fat before she was heavy and made her friendless because of 10lbs? I understand catty girls but they weren't everyone. Every single thing in her life on the show, every script had her weight or presumed weight make her miserable. She thought she didn't get jobs because of it, she lowered herself to be abused or go with unavailable men, she idolized the only guy who loved her, her dad.  I just don't get it, they gave the brother's so much more but I feel Chrissy's real weight made them have to have that dominate the scripts. If her weight doesn't matter, stop using it. Try to make us understand that for 20 years no one could reach her to get help. The writing for everyone else is fine, but Kate and even Rebecca to some degree have little depth.

[debraran]

But why when she was younger and not overweight, not really, did it matter so much. I went up and down in my weight, I had friends who were always 12-16 in size and they were fine. Sure they'd diet now and then, some when they hit plus size would diet back to 14 but they had a life. I do understand how people judge, even "thin", if I was very thin, I got more attention and normal, less. Our society is awful but if you are brought up to see yourself as something other than that, you have a chance. My beef is that she wasn't the only size 10/13 (and she wasn't heavy) as a teen. If she was 150-200 pounds I could see it. My things is her younger years don't make sense, not the older ones after 25 or so. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I get that people want more episodes, especially now that there aren't a lot of new things on tv, but the cast and crew are filming during a pandemic so I can't get mad that they only had four episodes available to air before the holidays.

Re: Kevin's acting ability vs his perception in Hollywood - I think the comparison to Ryan Reynolds was a good one. These are guys who started out in sitcoms and have had post-tv success in non-dramatic movies. Kevin's recent projects include a war movie and some kind of suspense movie (M. Night Shyamalan). That's not to say he is a bad actor, just that a pretentious director who insists that he makes FILMS (not movies) is not going to look at Kevin's IMDB credits and see a serious thespian. He sees Kevin as a commercial actor, not an actor who is on par with his ~art~ aka his films.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:15 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I have no doubt that Malik is a great dad and works very hard, but he could have ironed a shirt and made his lunch at night, after the baby went to sleep.  (He could probably have made some of her food for the next day, too.)  No need to get up extra early in the morning.

As someone who has NEVER been a morning person, I've always done everything I possibly can the night before so that I wouldn't have to rush in the morning. In high school, I always picked out my outfits the night before and ironed them. As an adult, I packed my lunch the night before. All those little things that take five minutes here and ten minutes there really add up.

On 11/17/2020 at 8:10 PM, KaveDweller said:

I don't buy that Randall would just stand up and start undressing knowing Malik was right outside the door. I don't buy him undressing at the office at all. It would be one thing if he was doing the live steam at home.

 

On 11/17/2020 at 8:17 PM, bybrandy said:

He was going jogging he wouldn't go jogging in his suit.  I'm not sure about the little dance in the office but if he is going running from the office he's changing in the office.  

 

On 11/17/2020 at 8:20 PM, Empress1 said:

I’ve changed in my office (well, before COVID). Same situation as Randall, actually - I would sometimes go running in the area where my employer was. Sometimes I would change before going to a boutique fitness class. Sometimes boutique fitness studios don’t have locker rooms, just regular bathrooms, and it’s easier to show up in workout clothes rather than change there, so I would change in my office before going to the class.

I used to teach a dance class in the evenings after my regular day job. If I left right on time, I would just barely make it through rush hour traffic and get to the studio as the previous class was ending. The studio had one bathroom which was a tiny room with a toilet, so even if I wanted to change there it would have been a tight squeeze. But since I could not get there super early, I didn't want to hog the bathroom because everyone always wants to use it right before/after class. I ended up changing in my office before I left work because it was just easier. I did this twice a week for years (heh, I just had to remember to close the blinds on my window before changing because I didn't want to give a show to the building across the way).

On 11/18/2020 at 8:18 AM, Neurochick said:

Day care IS expensive; a person doesn't have to be poor to be struggling with that, these days.  

Very true. When my aunt had her first kid, she was a middle school teacher. My cousin was born over the summer so my aunt's original plan was to go back to work at the beginning of the school year, but then she found out that having childcare during the 8 hours that she was at school would cost more than she made as a teacher.

On 11/18/2020 at 8:34 AM, memememe76 said:

the actress who played Mulan on Once Upon a Time playing Kevin’s costar. 

To me, Jamie will always be the most low key member of the Real World: San Diego house. Sometimes I forgot she even lived there because everyone else was so loud and crazy.

On 11/19/2020 at 2:37 AM, circumvent said:

I am with Toby. Why O-B-G-Y-N? But we do use reduced words: Gastro, Cardio, ENT... My beef is that it should be Obgyn, one word, not spelled out. Maybe we are just too lazy to say big/long words.

What drives me crazy about the O-B-G-Y-N "abbreviation" is that it's still five syllables. If you're pregnant, you're going to see the obstetrician which is four syllables. If you're not pregnant, you're going to see the gynecologist which is five syllables. In either case, O-B-G-Y-N is not shorter/faster.

[Eureka]

15 hours ago, circumvent said:

Yes, and that's not the technical name of the practice either. The correct term would be Otolaryngologist, which was changed to Ear, nose, throat doctor, which was abbreviated to ENT. We don't like words that take longer to say, we don't like to say all the words, haha

Or a “GI” doctor, which is really a gastroenterologist.

[bros402]

19 hours ago, circumvent said:

Yes, and that's not the technical name of the practice either. The correct term would be Otolaryngologist, which was changed to Ear, nose, throat doctor, which was abbreviated to ENT. We don't like words that take longer to say, we don't like to say all the words, haha

Yeah, I was considering typing otolaryngologist and not even putting ENT there, but decided against it 😛

[debraran]

When I worked at Yale, in the pharmacy, it was a large teaching hospital and I always heard "OB or OBGYN" spelled out, never gave it a second thought. My sister was a nurse on maternity floor and her friend worked on delivery. You always needed to see your OB or if not pregnant, GYN spelled with letters. Most of time in my part of the country, you didn't use the term OB unless you were pregnant. Many dropped OB from their practice as I got older and they did because of the cost of malpractice and hours and sometimes would still get the OB attached.

Funny how people react to those things, like many that differ state to state,

Edited November 22, 2020 by debraran

[jacksgirl]

The director is an asshole. Yes,  Kevin started in a sit-com. Bosom Buddies with Tom Hanks? Enough Said.

[PRgal]

40 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

The director is an asshole. Yes,  Kevin started in a sit-com. Bosom Buddies with Tom Hanks? Enough Said.

There's a difference between Tom Hanks and a guy like Kevin who is known for being eye candy.  

[jacksgirl]

22 minutes ago, PRgal said:

There's a difference between Tom Hanks and a guy like Kevin who is known for eye candy 

True,  The Manny was a longer-running and more successful than Bosom Buddies (I get we are comparing a real show to a fictional one), but was Tom Hanks well known then? Could anyone, except maybe him, have predicted the trajectory of his career? Honestly (ha, get what I did there?) I just remember him dressing in drag and being a tall goofy guy. 

[CrystalBlue]

19 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What drives me crazy about the O-B-G-Y-N "abbreviation" is that it's still five syllables. If you're pregnant, you're going to see the obstetrician which is four syllables. If you're not pregnant, you're going to see the gynecologist which is five syllables. In either case, O-B-G-Y-N is not shorter/faster.

I believe OBGYN is abbreviated for written brevity, not syllables while speaking.  We just picked up on saying the letters.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, jacksgirl said:

True,  The Manny was a longer-running and more successful than Bosom Buddies (I get we are comparing a real show to a fictional one), but was Tom Hanks well known then? Could anyone, except maybe him, have predicted the trajectory of his career? Honestly (ha, get what I did there?) I just remember him dressing in drag and being a tall goofy guy. 

There's also a little movie called Bachelor Party. Hysterically funny, but Saving Private Ryan, it ain't.  There's all kinds of talent and there's no reason Kevin can't be great all around, like Tom Hanks. He's already proven himself in at least two genres. Director boy is a douche.

[ShortyMac]

On 11/19/2020 at 7:15 AM, qtpye said:

Also, Kevin is an adult that still resents Randall but the girls have let Deja slip into their lives (at a much older age) with no issues whatsoever? Annie basically says one adorable line per episode and that is all we get of her.  Heck, I know way more about Toby than I do about Annie.

I was surprised with this, too, with what I've read about how adopting out of birth order can be tricky for families to navigate. Tess and Annie got an older sister out of nowhere, and there was no struggle/jealousy/adjustment/Deja's traumas taking up Randall's and Beth's time issues from them whatsoever. Not realistic.

On 11/19/2020 at 5:51 PM, tennisgurl said:

At least Tess has gotten a bit more prominent as she has been dealing with her sexuality (and of course her "profane" YouTube video) but Annie hardly gets any attention at all other than being cute and sassy in the background. In general, I am disappointed that we haven't gotten a lot of Tess and Annie's reactions to all of the upheaval that has happened in such a short amount of time in their family. They met their long lost grandpa, bonded with him, then he died, their dad quit his job, bought a building, ran for office, moved their family to a new city, decided to become a foster parent, adopted another girl so now they have a sister, their parents have marital issues, mom starts a new career, Tessa comes out, and now their dad is fighting with their uncle (and is generally in an awkward place with the whole family) and their grandma is sick with a long heartbreaking terminal illness that is just starting, even if they might not know all that much about the last few things. That is a lot for anyone to deal with over a few years, let alone two young kids, but we hardly get any reaction from them about all of that or are see how this is affecting them. We have spent like a million years on Deja and now her new boyfriend and his family, but I have no clue what Annie is up to, despite being one of the main characters daughter who has been on the show since day one. 

Agreed.

[mommalib]

Why doesn't Kevin resent Kate. She always got her fair share of the attention from their parents but Kevin has never directed any of his resentment at her. Why Randall?

[mommalib]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:33 PM, Neurochick said:

I don't get the hate for Deja or Malik.  I love seeing young black people on my TV, the more the merrier.  😀

Not only that but people also seem to have problem with Randall's love for his biological father. Strange indeed.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, mommalib said:

Why doesn't Kevin resent Kate. She always got her fair share of the attention from their parents but Kevin has never directed any of his resentment at her. Why Randall?

Because Kate didn't antagonize him at every turn? 

1 hour ago, mommalib said:

Not only that but people also seem to have problem with Randall's love for his biological father. Strange indeed.

I haven't seen this at all. Lots of complaints about Randall, but that's not one of them. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[jacksgirl]

On 11/20/2020 at 6:33 PM, Neurochick said:

I don't get the hate for Deja or Malik.  I love seeing young black people on my TV, the more the merrier.  😀

For me, it has nothing to do with anyone's ethnicity or race. I love this show and want deeper into the big 3. New characters and their story arcs take time away from the characters I have grown to love. I want their stories deeper, not new ones. YMMV though. 

[Blakeston]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:23 AM, Chatty Cake said:

Kates two brothers with perfect bodies must be difficult on her. Did they ever say what lead her to her current size? The flashbacks show a more typical teen always wanting to be thinner but she didn’t look like she was on her way to being very obese.

Jack's death plus an abusive relationship (and very possibly a secret abortion) led her to binge eat. Kevin once mentioned that Kate would sit in her car and stare at where the house used to be, and eat fast food.

The two main actresses who have portrayed young Kate have lost weight since being cast, and I think the writers have had to work around that. If the makers of the show had complete control over Kate's appearance (like if this was an animated show) then I think she would have been portrayed as consistently chubby throughout childhood, and then putting on weight very quickly after Jack's death.

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because Kate didn't antagonize him at every turn? 

I think Kevin antagonized Randall more than vice versa.

I'd guess that Kevin didn't resent Kate the way he resented Randall because a) Kate didn't outdo Kevin at anything, whereas Randall was clearly smarter and harder-working than Kevin was, and b) Kate was Kevin's biological sibling, and so he didn't feel like she was an interloper.

[mommalib]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because Kate didn't antagonize him at every turn? 

I haven't seen this at all. Lots of complaints about Randall, but that's not one of them. 

Kevin did most of the antagonizing and I have seen people complain about Randall looking at William as saint, as matter of fact I've seen that complaint during this very thread.

Edited November 23, 2020 by mommalib

[mommalib]

11 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Jack's death plus an abusive relationship (and very possibly a secret abortion) led her to binge eat. Kevin once mentioned that Kate would sit in her car and stare at where the house used to be, and eat fast food.

The two main actresses who have portrayed young Kate have lost weight since being cast, and I think the writers have had to work around that. If the makers of the show had complete control over Kate's appearance (like if this was an animated show) then I think she would have been portrayed as consistently chubby throughout childhood, and then putting on weight very quickly after Jack's death.

I think Kevin antagonized Randall more than vice versa.

I'd guess that Kevin didn't resent Kate the way he resented Randall because a) Kate didn't outdo Kevin at anything, whereas Randall was clearly smarter and harder-working than Kevin was, and b) Kate was Kevin's biological sibling, and so he didn't feel like she was an interloper.

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the reasons for Kevin's treatment of Randall. The whole biological thing reminds me of when Kate basically said that Randall couldn't have any of Jack's because he wasn't biological. They didn't dig deep enough into that as far as I'm concerned.  I think both Kevin and Kate kind of see Randall as an outsider or the "other". I wish the show would really go there instead of being phony.

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Jack's death plus an abusive relationship (and very possibly a secret abortion) led her to binge eat. Kevin once mentioned that Kate would sit in her car and stare at where the house used to be, and eat fast food.

The two main actresses who have portrayed young Kate have lost weight since being cast, and I think the writers have had to work around that. If the makers of the show had complete control over Kate's appearance (like if this was an animated show) then I think she would have been portrayed as consistently chubby throughout childhood, and then putting on weight very quickly after Jack's death.

 

I remember it as a yearly thing she did which is why Kevin knew she did it on anniversary. I understand eating your troubles away but it's sad they had to say it lasted over 20 years. I bet if Jack lived and he didn't have to die, they would have showed him trying to help her the way he did with AA. (if he didn't kill Marc)

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I understand eating your troubles away but it's sad they had to say it lasted over 20 years.

Original, emotional  reasons for gaining may go away, but once one's weight gets out of hand it can become a vicious cycle of dieting then gaining back more than you lost, and every new fat cell is yours forever.  You can deflate a fat cell, but not lose it, and a deflated fat cell is a hungry one -- ( I hope no scientists  or doctors are reading this shaky analogy.)  I speak from experience.  I was a skinny (110 lb) person until age 45 when I quit smoking and ballooned.  I've lost and regained that extra weight (plus more} a dozen times since then.  It's even harder for someone like Kate who has had weight problems all her life and is now probably at a point of no return.  I don't blame her or her family for not "getting help for her."  Food isn't a drug that you can go cold turkey on and never look back.  It's a substance that has to be dealt with daily and no one has found a real, permanent solution for the problem.   

Another criticism of Kate I see, off and on, is that she doesn't have a job.  I think taking care of any toddler is enough work for one woman, much less a woman with extra weight to carry and a toddler with a disability.  Besides, wouldn't it be hard to find a daycare that would take Jack?  That brings me to the adoption which seems like it may be too much extra work for Kate, but I do see how a sibling would be a wonderful addition to Jack's life.

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, mommalib said:

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the reasons for Kevin's treatment of Randall. The whole biological thing reminds me of when Kate basically said that Randall couldn't have any of Jack's because he wasn't biological. They didn't dig deep enough into that as far as I'm concerned.  I think both Kevin and Kate kind of see Randall as an outsider or the "other". I wish the show would really go there instead of being phony.

I wish the show would go there as well.  The irony is that Randall is the only one who has kept Jack's memory and traditions alive.  

[Crs97]

Kate watches football with her dad’s ashes.  Kevin wears the necklace.  They all celebrate the memories they hold most dear.

[mommalib]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Kate watches football with her dad’s ashes.  Kevin wears the necklace.  They all celebrate the memories they hold most dear.

Randall tried to step in to Jack's shoes after he died. I'm taking about the way Randall has lived his life as a husband and father, I'm not just talking about moments.

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I don't blame her or her family for not "getting help for her."  Food isn't a drug that you can go cold turkey on and never look back.  It's a substance that has to be dealt with daily and no one has found a real, permanent solution for the problem.

It's an impossible situation. It seems Kate wanted her family to be more vocal about her weight, but I don't think it would have changed anything. She asked Kevin in the pilot to tell her to lose the weight, which he reluctantly did, and here we are four years later and she hasn't lost an ounce.

55 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Randall tried to step in to Jack's shoes after he died. I'm taking about the way Randall has lived his life as a husband and father, I'm not just talking about moments.

Are you saying that the only meaningful way to honor someone's memory is to live the same way they did? Memories and shared experiences with a deceased love one are deeply personal, and honoring their memory is not a competition. Each of the Big Three's ways to honor their dad is equally valid, because those are the ways that are most meaningful to them.

Edited November 23, 2020 by chocolatine

[mommalib]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It's an impossible situation. It seems Kate wanted her family to be more vocal about her weight, but I don't think it would have changed anything. She asked Kevin in the pilot to tell her to lose the weight, which he reluctantly did, and here we are four years later and she hasn't lost an ounce.

Are you saying that the only meaningful way to honor someone's memory is to live the same way they did? Memories and shared experiences with a deceased love one are deeply personal, and honoring their memory is not a competition. Each of the Big Three's ways to honor their dad is equally valid, because those are the ways that are most meaningful to them.

What i'm saying is I think Randall is the one that most exemplifies Jack's traits, which is why I found ironic that Kate would say what she said to Randall about him not being able pass on Jack's traits.

Edited November 24, 2020 by mommalib

[bros402]

20 hours ago, debraran said:

I remember it as a yearly thing she did which is why Kevin knew she did it on anniversary. I understand eating your troubles away but it's sad they had to say it lasted over 20 years. I bet if Jack lived and he didn't have to die, they would have showed him trying to help her the way he did with AA. (if he didn't kill Marc)

I thought she didn't go out with Marc until after Jack died, when she went looking for a job?

I don't think she would've ended up not going to college if Jack hadn't died. 

[debraran]

3 hours ago, bros402 said:

I thought she didn't go out with Marc until after Jack died, when she went looking for a job?

I don't think she would've ended up not going to college if Jack hadn't died. 

That's what I said, a big "if" he didn't die he would have helped but her problems were there the whole time. I think college again was important to the family but not enough for Kate. I remember them thinking Kevin had the free ride all do to sports and Randall was smart but Kate it was "Did you do your applications?" Everyone's eyes see things differently but the show to me had emphasis on the boys more and because of the issues they wanted to bring with her weight, made Kate kind of blah. I guess if they made her have friends, or having a hobby or some activity she loved, things would seem more odd later when she fell apart. Her dad wouldn't see her as anything but his "baby girl" and only to my recollection ever told her to stop when putting down her mom only once. I never saw Jack as perfect, no dad is, but he made Kate very weak. She had to believe she was worth more from more people than him. I had low self esteem as a teen, no matter how thin I was etc. The roots aren't always weight, but are still important.

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It's an impossible situation. It seems Kate wanted her family to be more vocal about her weight, but I don't think it would have changed anything. She asked Kevin in the pilot to tell her to lose the weight, which he reluctantly did, and here we are four years later and she hasn't lost an ounce.

Are you saying that the only meaningful way to honor someone's memory is to live the same way they did? Memories and shared experiences with a deceased love one are deeply personal, and honoring their memory is not a competition. Each of the Big Three's ways to honor their dad is equally valid, because those are the ways that are most meaningful to them.

I feel although you aren't supposed to mention Chrissy's weight, it is a big part of the show and plot. You can't write about something that didn't happen if she didn't lose weight later. Plots depend on what they can show, you can make someone look heavier easy but it's much harder the other way. Certain things season one I feel were "maybe" items that if Chrissy did, they would write around it, if she didn't, no big deal. Fogleman said back in 2017 about weight “Thus far, the plan we had for the character and what Chrissy’s been doing have been working in tandem, with a talk once a year of, like, ‘Hey, here’s what we’re thinking,'” show’s creator Dan Fogelman told “The Hollywood Reporter”. “So we have a general long-term plan that we’ve all talked about, and we will adjust the plan as needed. I mean, that’s life, right?”

I think Randall is just as much Jack as the rest, the same way kids adopt characteristics. That is a good and bad thing though. His blood does not make them closer, that view of adoption which Kate will see, is not kind.

Edited November 24, 2020 by debraran

[Scarlett45]

On 11/20/2020 at 4:22 AM, DarkHorse said:

I also think it is unfair on the pregnant woman's other child, wouldn't that kid be expecting a brother or sister? How is she going to explain it to them when no baby comes home?

She would likely explain that she is placing the baby for adoption and it will have another family, like women who have made that choice have explained to older children at home- the child is 5 years old so that is probably the simplest explanation. 

[Scarlett45]

On 11/23/2020 at 7:42 AM, JudyObscure said:

Original, emotional  reasons for gaining may go away, but once one's weight gets out of hand it can become a vicious cycle of dieting then gaining back more than you lost, and every new fat cell is yours forever.  You can deflate a fat cell, but not lose it, and a deflated fat cell is a hungry one -- ( I hope no scientists  or doctors are reading this shaky analogy.)  I speak from experience.  I was a skinny (110 lb) person until age 45 when I quit smoking and ballooned.  I've lost and regained that extra weight (plus more} a dozen times since then.  It's even harder for someone like Kate who has had weight problems all her life and is now probably at a point of no return. 

Yes this is true. Once your fat cells multiply they NEVER go away, they will empty but not go away. Another reason why people who have been formerly obese retain water more easily, their fat cells will hold that water (with sodium, PMS etc etc). Watching humans, people who are overweight as children, even if they "get it under control" as adults, have to work super super hard to stay in a calorie balance compared to people who have always been thin (now how much of that is mental, how much of that is physiological is hard to say, but its both). Also when you become as big as Kate, its so much harder to exercise, basic movements are so much more difficult and thus its much harder to expend calories in a healthy way. 

On 11/23/2020 at 7:42 AM, JudyObscure said:

Besides, wouldn't it be hard to find a daycare that would take Jack?  That brings me to the adoption which seems like it may be too much extra work for Kate, but I do see how a sibling would be a wonderful addition to Jack's life.

Blind children attend daycare all the time, as do children with other disabilities. But if Kate wanted to work they would likely hire a nanny and not place him in daycare (pandemic or no pandemic)

[Scarlett45]

23 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

Explaining to a 5 year old that you will be giving the kid away and she will be denied a little sister? Harsh. 

Well what else would you do if you decide to place the baby for adoption? I’m not being snarky I’m legit asking- the child would be old enough to notice a pregnancy......so I think the truth would be best. And I don’t think the mother should have to “send herself away” like women used to have to do when they started to show(ugh that’s so awful).

I don’t think it’s okay to tell the child you just gained weight (if they ask)- especially these days with DNA testing and the like hiding siblings isn’t as easy as it was even 50yrs ago. 

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

The woman should have been more careful to avoid the situation in the first place. As others have mentioned, she already has a kid (that is if she is even telling the truth about that), she is aware of how sex works and what can happen. 

I think the best thing in these cases is to avoid the problem in the first place rather than worry about the consequences later. Sounds harsh perhaps by modern standards but she will now have the child that lives with her know they have a sibling out there somewhere as well as the child she adopts out who will feel they were abandoned etc. 

How many lives do you need to affect for a night of fun?

I get that. Trust I would’ve wrapped it up triple (I’m kidding) with a one night stand and if I had gotten pregnant I would’ve terminated the pregnancy. But she decided not to do that, and she doesn’t want to raise this child- for whatever reason (she might not have the financial or emotional bandwidth for another one). 
 

 

Given where she is NOW (never conceiving isn’t an option, termination isn’t an option) I think it’s best if she just tells her daughter the truth, and if they do an open adoption the kids can meet when they are older if that’s what everyone wants.
 

Hiding a sibling never works out well- whether they were conceived “on the side”, via a one night stand or however. But I’m not going to suggest she raise a baby she doesn’t want to raise (even if she is already a mother, because she is already a mother she certainly knows what it takes to raise a child alone)- she is making an adoption plan not leaving the infant on the side of the road or criminally neglecting it.