S05.E04: Honestly

[MoonMountain]

I am about the same age as the big 3, and I wouldn’t have known around age 18-20 that you could buy an ovulation test. Heck, I only just realized reading this thread that those were a thing. Lol. So I’m not sure I’m buying Kate being savvy to an ovulation test, but that’s okay. 
 

That being said, I assume Ellie’s story triggered her because she had an abortion herself, BUT, I could also see her having a miscarriage, and facing verbal abuse from Mark (such as: “you would have been a horrible mother anyway”/“I hope you never get to have kids”/etc.). I suppose he could say things like that even if she did have an abortion as well. Idk, I just think there’s gonna be another layer onto that story line. 

[project90]

26 minutes ago, MoonMountain said:

I am about the same age as the big 3, and I wouldn’t have known around age 18-20 that you could buy an ovulation test. Heck, I only just realized reading this thread that those were a thing. Lol. So I’m not sure I’m buying Kate being savvy to an ovulation test, but that’s okay. 

I only know they are a thing from watching friends Monica was using them

[debraran]

3 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

The director also came across as a patronizing asshole when he asked Kevin if he expected an “Attaboy”, especially after the way he fawned over Ava.

There are directors like that and Ken Olin had one. You have to learn to adjust to their way to getting things out of you. He based it on that from this interview:

.That's why I loved doing that scene, because I thought was so funny. I know directors like that. And having been an actor, that approach to actors I find that really funny because it's so abusive, in such a bulls--- way. But that way of mindf---ing actors is a technique.

Justin's reaction doesn't tell you how you're supposed to react, because this director doesn't want you to know how to react. It's a very deliberate form of a power move. I've worked with a director whose favorite book was The Art of War. That's how you see it, and maybe that's what you need to do to be that kind of a director. But Kevin's reaction to it, which is so almost inscrutable, is exactly right… And if anything, what we're supposed to take from that is, Kevin has to figure it out for himself. Because this guy is not going to tell him. Kevin needs to find where he stands.

He also said about Kevin and Randall " In terms of acting, you need that empathy and you need to explore that,” Olin said. “You need to be willing to investigate that. And you’ll see, actually in the next episode that I’m going to direct (Episode 8), where we’re going is that eventually Kevin and Randall, there will be a meeting of their minds and where they are… This will come back, because of something Kate said in Episode 4 that does reverberate. It ripples in Kevin, and we’re able to then pick it up again in Episode 8 and you go, ‘Wow, that’s really interesting.’”

So I hope some more laughs but I don't see too many. I feel seeing Kevin and Randall really seeing each other will be nice and we all know Kevin gets the Oscar and I hope before his Mom is too sick (maybe this movie?) Supporting actor? 

I just really feel bad if Laurel is dead because losing you bio dad so quickly and then knowing your bio mom was alive most of your life and then lost....that's over the top melodrama. There are not enough therapists.

 

[circumvent]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:15 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I have no doubt that Malik is a great dad and works very hard, but he could have ironed a shirt and made his lunch at night, after the baby went to sleep.  (He could probably have made some of her food for the next day, too.)  No need to get up extra early in the morning.

Sometimes the characters don't say things literally, it is a writer's thing to tell a story. It is debatable if it works or not, it worked for me. Malik was listing all the things he needs to do but it doesn't necessarily mean that he does that everyday, in that order. It is like medical dramas when doctors just order a bunch of tests for everyone, no matter what the suspected diagnosis might be.

Kevin's director was just a narcissistic ass. Directing means you give feedback. He gave none, positive or negative. His "are you going to be great" speech was an empty platitude (platitudes are already empty, so that line was pure bullshit).

I am with Toby. Why O-B-G-Y-N? But we do use reduced words: Gastro, Cardio, ENT... My beef is that it should be Obgyn, one word, not spelled out. Maybe we are just too lazy to say big/long words.

I liked the episode. It weaved well the timelines and how Kevin does listen, how he learns.

[Jillybean]

10 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

They mentioned Baby Jack in the previous episode meeting up with Ellie in the park and having their squabble over who bought/didn't buy the diapers for their baby.

When I said mention him, I meant reference where he is and how they are able to be out and about during a pandemic...who is caring for their baby while they try to get another one?? It seems so odd to me.

[Chatty Cake]

I’m surprised so many people liked the episode. I thought it was awful. Randall’s strip tease made him look stupid. The hands on teenage dad is unbelievable.

 A seemingly healthy woman in her 30s wanting to give a baby to a severely obese woman and her overly quirky hubby makes little sense. 

Kevin being so needy is also annoying but I couldn’t understand why the director was gushing over the Asian actress. She didn’t deliver her lines any better than Kevin. 
I also think there’s too much going back in time. Randall’s birth mom, Kates teen pregnancy.....etc. They had enough going on.  Deja was having a rough time and now she’s this perfect young lady. Toby’s mental illness, gym obsession and texting with another lady is all resolved and he’s ready to adopt with his lovely, nagging, needy wife.  I don’t see the need to focus on the crying baby as an answer to why the very handsome and successful actor is so dependent on praise. 
I did like the show and I’ll most likely see it through but right now it’s making me cringe.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Chatty Cake

[qtpye]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:10 AM, phalange said:

As soon as the word "livestream" was mentioned, I knew something was going to go wrong. Randall handled it well though, and I liked his talk with Malik. I was wondering how the grandpa was going to find out about Randall and a video going viral makes sense. So clearly Laurel talked to him about her past since he recognizes William's name. 

I also noticed the box said "ovulation test" and normally this show is on top of everything, props included, so I have to believe that was a deliberate choice and not a mistake. Which makes me very worried for teenage Kate. 

I liked how pre-teen Kevin asking Randall for studying advice tied in to the present with Kevin using Randall's flashcard method to work on his acting. I didn't like how once again the show made Jack right about every parenting decision and made Rebecca look like the bad parent, especially when it came to letting baby Kevin cry. I know that was the prevailing advice at the time, but it was shitty advice. Comforting a crying baby is not the same as encouraging Kevin to stick with football. (And Rebecca was right about not taking parenting advice from Miguel and his wife cause clearly their kids didn't turn out great!)

 

21 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

 

Where is this Malik's family is poor coming from?  His dad has a busy garage and his mom has a job where she wears business attire to work.  I never got the impression that they were poor, just that both parents worked and they had to coordinate their busy schedules to help their teenage son care for his baby daughter.  They don't have money like Beth and Randall, but they seem to be comfortable.

 

20 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Yeah, they've established that Malik's family has less money than Randall and Beth (Malik's father has made some comments that indicate that the Pearsons have more), but that doesn't make them poor. I am not sure if Malik and his daughter qualify as their own family unit; if so, they probably don't have much in the eyes of the state, but we don't know that Malik's parents are at an income level that would qualify them for aid. I don't think they are. 

I went to an Ivy and I knew a girl in my major who had a child - she got pregnant sophomore year, had the baby over the summer, and she graduated on time. She had a lot of help from family and the baby's father, who wasn't a student. She either lived with the father or her family, I forget which (no babies in the dorms). I really liked the moment where Randall told Malik to dream big, he said he already was, and Randall was sufficiently chastened.

 

19 hours ago, callmebetty said:

How rich would it be if William did know Laurel did live but William lied to Randall? After Randall was so mad at Rebecca for keeping William away from him, to find that Saint William kept a secret would be interesting. 

 

12 hours ago, Boo Boo said:

So despite Jack's heroic efforts, Rebecca just can't stop trying to make her whiny little bitch baby a quitter!  I cannot stand Jack scenes, especially when they always seem to make Rebecca be a terrible mother -- from her wanting to comfort her baby, her supposed favoritism of  Randall, Kate's apparent jealousy of Rebecca for daring to be thin and pretty,  then there's Rebecca's hiding the father info from Randall.  Do writers hate women?  

Finally, a likeable scene with Randall.  My God what a body on him.

While I like the actor who plays Malik, I really hate when writers make the kid say things an adult would.  I really find it hard to believe a kid his age would talk about Michelin rated restaurants and a lot of the other things he says or the romantic things he does.  

The Kate and the birthmom story.  I do feel like they'll be heartbroken in the end and the mom will decide to keep the baby.  Then I bet Kate miraculously has a bio-baby miracle.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

I’m surprised so many people liked the episode. I thought it was awful. Randall’s strip tease made him look stupid. The hands on teenage dad is unbelievable.

 A seemingly healthy woman in her 30s wanting to give a baby to a severely obese woman and her overly quirky hubby makes little sense. 

Kevin being so needy is also annoying but I couldn’t understand why the director was gushing over the Asian actress. She didn’t deliver her lines any better than Kevin. 
I also think there’s too much going back in time. Randall’s birth mom, Kates teen pregnancy.....etc. They had enough going on.  Deja was having a rough time and now she’s this perfect young lady. Toby’s mental illness, gym obsession and texting with another lady is all resolved and he’s ready to adopt with his lovely, nagging, needy wife.  I don’t see the need to focus on the crying baby as an answer to why the very handsome and successful actor is so dependent on praise. 
I did like the show and I’ll most likely see it through but right now it’s making me cringe.

I am going to say something that is unpopular.

I have not liked Randall's storylines since the family has adopted Deja. It is not Deja's fault...that actress is talented, but Randall just seems so insufferable since that happened.

When he was signing out with the shout out to William, I know it was just a plot device so the grandfather would recognize something, but it just seemed so patronizing about what a saint Randall was for wanting to represent this underserved community.

Also, Kevin is an adult that still resents Randall but the girls have let Deja slip into their lives (at a much older age) with no issues whatsoever? Annie basically says one adorable line per episode and that is all we get of her.  Heck, I know way more about Toby than I do about Annie.

Deja has lead to Malik and don't love this character. I hated his mother and her "girls these days are fast" comments, when her son has a child.

[circumvent]

16 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

I’m surprised so many people liked the episode. I thought it was awful. Randall’s strip tease made him look stupid. The hands on teenage dad is unbelievable.

 A seemingly healthy woman in her 30s wanting to give a baby to a severely obese woman and her overly quirky hubby makes little sense. 

Randall's video was a much needed light moment in a show that is incorporating the pandemic in the timeline. And people do this type of things all the time, at least it was something fun/funny.

I wan't a teenage mom but I was pre-teen sister who had to do all that for.with my brother when he was about 9 months old until he was two. No washing machine, had to wash his clothes by hand, not a lot of disposable diapers back then (I am old), had to feed him, take the city bus to take him to daycare when he turned two, then pick him up. My mother worked full time and she was only home after 6. My school was only in the morning (different country) and a neighbor took care of him during that time. Some lives seem unbelievable, but they are real lives.

Some people can see the value in others even if they are quirky or don't fit the assumed definition of healthy. I can see someone connecting with another human being in a level that gives them confidence to, in this case, choosing them to adopt the child. I mean, you can have very rich, "normal", "pretty" people and they might turn out to be assholes. It goes both ways.

 

[qtpye]

Does anyone else think it is hypocritical the way that Jack scolds Rebecca for coddling their sons but does not hold the same standard for Kate? Jack never says no to Kate or back up any of Rebecca's disciplinary measures to help make her more healthy.

Edited November 19, 2020 by qtpye

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

I am with Toby. Why O-B-G-Y-N? But we do use reduced words: Gastro, Cardio, ENT...

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

[circumvent]

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Does anyone else think it is hypocritical the way that Jack scolds Rebecca for coddling their sons but does not hold the same standard for Kate? Jack never says no to Kate or back up any of Rebecca's disciplinary measures to help make her more healthy.

I haven't really noticed but maybe another storyline? I guess the point of the episode was to show more of Kevin and how he deals with things as an adult, and that has to do with how Jack pushed him. I don't have an opinion on the efficacy or value, but I guess that might be the writer's point. Kevin does't have an obvious hurdle in life. Randall has the race issue, Kate the weight/health/guilty issue. Kevin mostly keeps to himself. He did have the drinking problem but that part seems to be under control for now and the writers needed something else. I did like the episode's focus on him

[Jax7917]

6 hours ago, PepSinger said:

And:

I completely agree with these posts. As an actor and director myself, I found the director totally out of line. The actor's job is to be in the moment. An actor shouldn't have to watch themselves act; it's the director's job to be the outside eye and help the guide the actor in their performance. I hated that the show tried to tell us that Kevin wasn't working hard enough. It would've been one thing if the director had been asking Kevin questions such as, "What does your character want in this? What tactics are you going to use? What's your objective?" and Kevin had no answers. That's basic homework any actor should be doing, so I would've understood the director's annoyance in that case. However, that's not what we saw.

Yeah that storyline was poorly written to make us get the point and I don’t usually say that about this show . 

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

That’s funny. I’ve only ever heard it spelled out. I wonder if this is a regional thing.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Jeddah

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

I've never heard that one, but when talking about a doctor for a pregnant person, I usually just hear "O.B." since that's the part that's more relevant.

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Does anyone else think it is hypocritical the way that Jack scolds Rebecca for coddling their sons but does not hold the same standard for Kate? Jack never says no to Kate or back up any of Rebecca's disciplinary measures to help make her more healthy.

Oh, absolutely.

[BC4ME]

I had a baby in the late 80s and that let them cry themselves to sleep thing was popular then. Even though I'd never had a child and didn't know anything about babies, it just didn't feel right so I didn't do it. I had a friend who was involved in a book or seminar called Sleep Hygiene or something like that where you just let them cry. She laid out a pretty convincing argument but it didn't instinctively feel right to me. 

I think how Jack and Rebecca were parented themselves along with the natural personalities caused this conflict between them. I believe Jack has that softer side that he shows with Kate but not as much with Kevin. Possibly because of the way he was parented and the fact that  Kevin was a boy.

But what I took away from that sequence of flashbacks was that Kevin needed more than he got from the beginning. Maybe he was just naturally more needy or maybe even as a baby he felt like odd man out. But either way he was left to his own devices and coping mechanisms, good or bad. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Have they discussed the rights of the baby’s bio father?  I realize bio mom says it was a one night stand, but, those fathers have rights too and there are legal requirements that have to be followed in order to terminate their rights. Even if you don’t know his name.  I don’t recall bio mom wondering if the father might want the child.

Edited November 19, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

I say “gynecologist.” I’m with Toby, albeit unconsciously (like, I never thought “why do we shorten this kind of doctor but not that?” I just don’t shorten it). I’m trying to think of what my friends who have given birth called the doctors who handled the pregnancy and birth, and I think they all just said “my doctor” in conversations about pregnancy and childbirth - we all knew which doctor they meant.

I do have a friend who says “derm” for “dermatologist.”

[Scarlett45]

16 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Have they discussed the rights of the baby’s bio father?  I realize bio mom says it was a one night stand, but, those fathers have rights too and there are legal requirements that have to be followed in order to terminate their rights. Even if you don’t know his name.  I don’t recall bio mom wondering if the father might want the child.

Yeah I was thinking that. Did she tell him and he didnt care, or does he not know? Since she decided to carry the pregnancy to term she should tell him. If she had decided to have an abortion there would've been no need. 

4 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I do have a friend who says “derm” for “dermatologist.”

My father is also a dermatologist and "Derm" is a common term, as is "ortho-pod" for orthopedic surgeon, Peds for pediatrician, GP for general practitioner, etc etc.

 

 I think Toby just doesnt know what he is talking about. I like Toby but that comment made no sense. None. 

 

30 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

That’s funny. I’ve only ever heard it spelled out. I wonder if this is a regional thing.

Maybe- we are in Chicago.

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As far as the fight goes, yes, Kevin said something hateful/hurtful, but saying it was the worst day of his life is a far cry from saying he wished Randall wasn't born. Kevin's 'attack' was based in jealousy, feelings that his life was changed by all the attention Randall got and he spoke his own point of view. Randall attacked Kevin's sobriety, his career and his relationship with his dead father, putting words in Jack's mouth that he died ashamed of Kevin. If it's a scorecard, in my opinion, what Randall said was far worse.

I felt Kevin practically did say he wished Randall didn't exist.  As for Randall attacking Kevin's sobriety, well that happens in real life.   Kevin hasn't been sober for very long, and many times it takes family members many years to trust you.  That's just life.

To me Kevin's always had it easy.  The director probably saw Kevin as mediocre, "The Manny."  Maybe the director saw Kevin as one of these white guys whose been able to make it by being "just okay."  I know that's how I originally saw Kevin, he's changed since getting sober though.  

[Scarlett45]

36 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

I think how Jack and Rebecca were parented themselves along with the natural personalities caused this conflict between them. I believe Jack has that softer side that he shows with Kate but not as much with Kevin. Possibly because of the way he was parented and the fact that  Kevin was a boy.

But what I took away from that sequence of flashbacks was that Kevin needed more than he got from the beginning. Maybe he was just naturally more needy or maybe even as a baby he felt like odd man out. But either way he was left to his own devices and coping mechanisms, good or bad. 

Yes I agree- parents are people, with pasts, and with innate personalities that respond xyz way to their child's on innate personalities. I can see while Jack def knew his Dad was an abusive asshole, and didnt want to be like him (which he wasnt), he knew that being "pushed" can sometimes be good for children to reach their potential. Also given that Kevin was a boy and talented in area's Jack was also talented (like sports), he thought he knew what was best for him in that area. When it came to things like school he probably let Rebecca take the lead because he thought she knew more. It seems that what Kevin needed in that instance was a blend of Jack and Rebecca's parenting styles. 

 

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I felt Kevin practically did say he wished Randall didn't exist.  As for Randall attacking Kevin's sobriety, well that happens in real life.   Kevin hasn't been sober for very long, and many times it takes family members many years to trust you.  That's just life.

Yes I thought what Kevin said was far worse than what Randall said. Now Randall was more wrong because he started the fight by emotionally blackmailing his MOTHER, but Kevin did say "I wish you weren't in my life" essentially, and Randall said that Kevin was a disgrace.

 

The fight was awful because both things were true. Kevin said in season 1 if Randall wasnt in the family HE would've been the star (he has resentment for not being the star in the family), and Kevin was absolutely awful, rude and disrespectful to his parents for NO DAMN REASON the night Jack died (and Jack, being a good Dad didnt hold it against him), and then Jack died and Kevin had no chance to make amends for his behavior. I dont think Jack died "ashamed of Kevin" but he was damn upset that his child could treat him that way, and was ashamed of his behavior. 

[Blakeston]

It's amazing how everyone in proximity with Randall is a straight-A student!

Deja had been living in a car with an extremely dysfunctional mother, and then living in an abusive foster home, but then she gets adopted by Randall and within a year her grades are perfect. You would expect someone to fall behind in school during such an incredibly difficult childhood, but apparently being adopted by Randall was enough to turn her academics right around.

And now Malik, despite being a teenager father with an insane schedule who's exhausted throughout the day, is also managing straight As! I guess Randall is such a genius that it rubs off on everyone around him. 🙄

It would be interesting to see how Randall deals with a kid who tries hard but isn't able to maintain a 4.0 because they're not extremely academically gifted, or because of life circumstances. But I don't think we'll ever see that.

[Alexander Pope]

13 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

The whole episode I kept thinking , “but the director was being an asshole and it wasn’t Kevin’s fault . “ He kept stopping Kevin every time he read the line but refused to direct him on what to do . How was he supposed to know what to change ? I thought it was a bad example of making Kevin out to be the guy who doesn’t put enough effort in but expects praises . He was genuinely curious what the director wanted from him , and you know .. kinda the guys job to share it with the actor . 

Isn't that a kind of reflection on what Jack was doing with his tough love of Kevin?  he wasn't explaining to him why he wouldn't pick him up when he was crying (of course), or why he had to memorize the playbook even though he was exhausted and wanted to quit.  His expectations were implied, not spoken, which made them all the more powerful.

[Empress1]

37 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

You would expect someone to fall behind in school during such an incredibly difficult childhood, but apparently being adopted by Randall was enough to turn her academics right around.

I actually think this is indeed possible. It seems like Deja is naturally smart but she had so much going on with Shauna since she was juggling so much; she had to care for her mother, they were homeless, foster care is in and of itself a stressor. With the Pearsons, she doesn't have to worry about any of that. She's in a stable home and she doesn't have the adult responsibilities she had with Shauna. All she has to do is go to school, so she can focus on her work. And Randall and Beth are the kind of parents who would nurture her academically however she needed, and they have the resources to do that where Shauna did not - tutors, study groups, a different school if she wasn't thriving in the old one, etc. I think the family was in therapy after the adoption as well, which would have helped with whatever Deja was dealing with after being adopted (I remember she smashed Randall's car). 

I do see your point about what Randall would do if he had a child who wasn't naturally academically inclined. (For all we know about Annie, that could be her!).

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

 

Deja had been living in a car with an extremely dysfunctional mother, and then living in an abusive foster home, but then she gets adopted by Randall and within a year her grades are perfect. You would expect someone to fall behind in school during such an incredibly difficult childhood, but apparently being adopted by Randall was enough to turn her academics right around.

I thought it was interesting she is calling Randall "dad," while Beth remains "Beth."  I know Deja still is in contact with her mother, so that mostly explains it, I just would be curious how Beth feels about that.  I'm not surprised Deja's grades have improved.  Her life with her mother was extremely unstable, and now she has stability.  That alone is going to improve her life markedly.  

And am I wrong or is 14 year old Kate now taller than 18/19 year old Kate?

[Ohiopirate02]

17 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought it was interesting she is calling Randall "dad," while Beth remains "Beth."  I know Deja still is in contact with her mother, so that mostly explains it, I just would be curious how Beth feels about that.  I'm not surprised Deja's grades have improved.  Her life with her mother was extremely unstable, and now she has stability.  That alone is going to improve her life markedly.  

And am I wrong or is 14 year old Kate now taller than 18/19 year old Kate?

She got her growth spurt and is indeed taller than 18 year old Kate and probably adult Kate.  That is the risk when you cast child actors to a multi-year role.  

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

It's amazing how everyone in proximity with Randall is a straight-A student!

Deja had been living in a car with an extremely dysfunctional mother, and then living in an abusive foster home, but then she gets adopted by Randall and within a year her grades are perfect. You would expect someone to fall behind in school during such an incredibly difficult childhood, but apparently being adopted by Randall was enough to turn her academics right around.

And now Malik, despite being a teenager father with an insane schedule who's exhausted throughout the day, is also managing straight As! I guess Randall is such a genius that it rubs off on everyone around him. 🙄

A lot of black kids fail in school because no one really believes in them or gives them a chance.  Some teachers are like, "yeah, you'll be in jail in a few years, why bother?"  

Maybe that's why Malik and Deja are doing well, because someone gave a fuck about them.

[Biggie B]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

And I'm the exact opposite. I'm 58 years old, and in the past 40+ years,  have always referred to my O-B, my G-Y-N,  or my O-B-G-Y-N. I've never heard of the pronunciation you mention. Go figure.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Biggie B

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

And I'm the exact opposite. I'm 58 years old, and in the past 40+ years,  have always referred to my O-B, my G-Y-N,  or my O-B-G-Y-N. I've never heard of the pronunciation you mention. Go figure.

Me too. Either O-B-G-Y-N in polite or general conversation, or Gynee (guy knee) among girlfriends.

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I felt Kevin practically did say he wished Randall didn't exist.  As for Randall attacking Kevin's sobriety, well that happens in real life.   Kevin hasn't been sober for very long, and many times it takes family members many years to trust you.  That's just life.

To me Kevin's always had it easy.  The director probably saw Kevin as mediocre, "The Manny."  Maybe the director saw Kevin as one of these white guys whose been able to make it by being "just okay."  I know that's how I originally saw Kevin, he's changed since getting sober though.  

The director is likely one of those artsy types who look down on TV - especially SITCOM - actors.  But why was Kevin picked?  Did the others suck even more?

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

A lot of black kids fail in school because no one really believes in them or gives them a chance.  Some teachers are like, "yeah, you'll be in jail in a few years, why bother?"  

Maybe that's why Malik and Deja are doing well, because someone gave a fuck about them.

Straight-A students are rare even among privileged kids - let alone kids with as many obstacles as Deja and Malik have faced.

Is it possible they could achieve that? Sure. But people who can overcome those odds (a brutally deprived childhood in Deja's case, and becoming a single parent at 14 or 15 in Malik's case) are pretty extraordinary.

Almost every smart person on TV is depicted as an A-student and (eventually) an Ivy League graduate, and I feel like that sends a bad message to kids that if they don't achieve that, they either aren't especially bright, or they don't work hard enough.

To this show's credit, both Randall and Beth have been depicted as brainiacs, and they didn't go to an Ivy. I would love it if Malik eventually decided to just go straight to culinary school.

[Boo Boo]

So what was up with the Ovulation predictor test?  It's hard for me to believe that many people are that clueless to let that slide by, so it makes me think she purposefully tried to get pregnant to keep her abusive boyfriend and then he beat the shit out of her or emotionally abused her so she decided to abort?

Edited November 19, 2020 by Boo Boo

[Crs97]

"O.B. Gin" here. 

Funny story related to young Kate's height.  My then 14 year old tried out for a regional production of Bonnie & Clyde as young Clyde.  Another kid and he got to split the part.  Rehearsals started 5 weeks later, during which he grew 4 inches and had a voice change.  As I drove him to his first rehearsal, I explained that if they fired him, he wasn't to blame.  Luckily, they saw him come in, shrugged, and started to laugh.  The same thing happened to the other kid.  My son was taller than Clyde, who at one point is holding on to him and walking around with him.  They made it work.  Luckily here the Kates don't have to interact.

I would love to see Randall have to deal with a child who wasn't like him academically.  We don't need huge melodrama (I could care less about his birth mother) when there are so many smaller stories that could have such a big impact.

I am quickly getting back to my position in season 1 of actively hating Jack.  His blocking Rebecca from getting crying Kevin and then later starting to get Kevin himself was a jerk move, and his comment that Rebecca makes teen Kevin soft made me want to punch him.  I said during season 1 that I thought Miguel might be the best thing to happen to Rebecca because Jack makes Rebecca feel small.  This episode solidified it for me.

[ams1001]

19 minutes ago, PRgal said:

The director is likely one of those artsy types who look down on TV - especially SITCOM - actors. 

Of course...he makes films, not movies...

[CrystalBlue]

18 minutes ago, Boo Boo said:

So what was up with the Ovulation predictor test?  It's hard for me to believe that many people let that slide by, so it makes me think she purposefully tried to get pregnant to keep her abusive boyfriend and then he beat the shit out of her or emotionally abused her so she decided to abort?

Either that or he assaulted her and then she lost the baby.  I don't know why that would trigger her to finally admit to herself she lost a baby though, because Kate has already had a miscarriage.  Thinking out loud here.  Yes, Kate probably realized her folly and decided to get an abortion.  Sad storyline either which way.

I do wonder why a teen abortion or miscarriage wouldn't come up in Kate and Toby's fertility struggle.  I guess she concealed it on her medical history?

[CrystalBlue]

I'm from Southern California and I've always said O-B-G-Y-N.  I've read copy in print magazines or online where gals call them "my Gyno" as well as "my derm" for dermatologist, but I cannot speak like that.  I've seen "my derm" on TV as well.  I really didn't understand Toby's wonderment on the usage of various doctor titles.  I wonder if Kate ever told an OBGYN that she had an abortion.  That is normally a health history question.  Not so fun fact:  Medical terminology for a miscarriage is "spontaneous abortion" and elected abortion is "therapeutic abortion."  I learned this long ago when I was in the medical-legal field.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Boo Boo said:

So what was up with the Ovulation predictor test?  It's hard for me to believe that many people are that clueless to let that slide by, so it makes me think she purposefully tried to get pregnant to keep her abusive boyfriend and then he beat the shit out of her or emotionally abused her so she decided to abort?

Personally, I think the ovulation test was a prop mistake.  I find it immensely difficult to believe a teen would use one of those even if she were trying to get pregnant on purpose. 

[debraran]

33 minutes ago, izabella said:

Personally, I think the ovulation test was a prop mistake.  I find it immensely difficult to believe a teen would use one of those even if she were trying to get pregnant on purpose. 

I see your point but this is 2020 and I doubt it. I think it was asked of Ken Olin and he said pretty much to just watch. I can see her crazy enough to trick him but at her age, ovulation isn't usually an issue and those kits were 35-50 bucks I think in 1980's (I bought one once) Much more than the pregnancy tests.  They watch the show, edit it and the close up was almost obnoxious.  I just feel uncomfortable watching this train wreck and I hope at 40+ they show her finally being secure, maybe the talk with Toby with help. His flirtations and issues with working out I guess were sidelined by Covid so they are now secure enough to adopt and raise a legally blind son. I almost forgot those plots.

 

 

[tennisgurl]

20 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

The director also came across as a patronizing asshole when he asked Kevin if he expected an “Attaboy”, especially after the way he fawned over Ava.

Yeah its almost like Kevin wants some direction...from his director...who would have guessed? I wonder if the director was forced to hire Kevin by the studio, and that's why he gushed over Ava, who he actually wanted, while being all annoyed at Kevin for even saying hi to him, maybe the studio funding the movie required them to hire a more commercial "name" for him to get the funding for the movie? 

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

Annie basically says one adorable line per episode and that is all we get of her.  Heck, I know way more about Toby than I do about Annie.

At least Tess has gotten a bit more prominent as she has been dealing with her sexuality (and of course her "profane" YouTube video) but Annie hardly gets any attention at all other than being cute and sassy in the background. In general, I am disappointed that we haven't gotten a lot of Tess and Annie's reactions to all of the upheaval that has happened in such a short amount of time in their family. They met their long lost grandpa, bonded with him, then he died, their dad quit his job, bought a building, ran for office, moved their family to a new city, decided to become a foster parent, adopted another girl so now they have a sister, their parents have marital issues, mom starts a new career, Tessa comes out, and now their dad is fighting with their uncle (and is generally in an awkward place with the whole family) and their grandma is sick with a long heartbreaking terminal illness that is just starting, even if they might not know all that much about the last few things. That is a lot for anyone to deal with over a few years, let alone two young kids, but we hardly get any reaction from them about all of that or are see how this is affecting them. We have spent like a million years on Deja and now her new boyfriend and his family, but I have no clue what Annie is up to, despite being one of the main characters daughter who has been on the show since day one. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by tennisgurl

[deirdra]

8 hours ago, Jeddah said:

That’s funny. I’ve only ever heard it spelled out. I wonder if this is a regional thing.

Same here, and I've heard it spelled out in NY, MD and western Canada.

[Boo Boo]

22 minutes ago, deirdra said:

Same here, and I've heard it spelled out in NY, MD and western Canada.

Maryland here and I've only heard OB-GYN.  Never "GIN"

[qtpye]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah its almost like Kevin wants some direction...from his director...who would have guessed? I wonder if the director was forced to hire Kevin by the studio, and that's why he gushed over Ava, who he actually wanted, while being all annoyed at Kevin for even saying hi to him, maybe the studio funding the movie required them to hire a more commercial "name" for him to get the funding for the movie? 

At least Tess has gotten a bit more prominent as she has been dealing with her sexuality (and of course her "profane" YouTube video) but we Annie hardly gets any attention at all other than being cute and sassy in the background. In general, I am disappointed that we haven't gotten a lot of Tess and Annie's reactions to all of the upheaval that has happened in such a short amount of time in their family. They met their long lost grandpa, bonded with him, then he died, their dad quit his job, bought a building, ran for office, moved their family to a new city, decided to become a foster parent, adopted another girl so now they have a sister, their parents have marital issues, mom starts a new career, Tessa comes out, and now their dad is fighting with their uncle (and is generally in an awkward place with the whole family) and their grandma is sick with a long heartbreaking terminal illness that is just starting, even if they might not know all that much about the last few things. That is a lot for anyone to deal with over a few years, let alone two young kids, but we hardly get any reaction from them about all of that or are see how this is affecting them. We have spent like a million years on Deja and now her new boyfriend and his family, but I have no clue what Annie is up to, despite being one of the main characters daughter who has been on the show since day one. 

Just one of those things can throw a child for a loop. It took much less than this to trigger an anxiety attack from young Randall, an anger tantrum from young Kevin, or an eating binge from young Kate.

It is a little hard for me to believe there is absolutely no resentment for how Deja has dominated their parents time or how their family moved on basically a whim from Randall, to honor a father he barely knew. Also, they might be under a lot more scrutiny since now they are now the children of a politician...something they might not enjoy.

 

[KaveDweller]

20 hours ago, Jeddah said:

What bothered me about the scene was that it’s not his job. He didn’t work there. He was a kid shadowing for a school project. They should never have given him any amount of responsibility. If I left some kid to cover for me at my job and then he screwed up, that’s on me.

I actually would give Malik a little credit, because while he screwed up, it wasn't just because he was checking his Instagram or something. He got a call about his daughter. He probably answered in case it was an emergency and thought that was more important than a stupid live stream.

18 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

The director also came across as a patronizing asshole when he asked Kevin if he expected an “Attaboy”, especially after the way he fawned over Ava.

Do we think he was fawning over Ava because he thought she was a needy actress that needed to be complemented? Or was he genuinely that impressed with her. She was doing fine, but it wasn't exactly an Oscar worthy line reading.

13 hours ago, qtpye said:

When he was signing out with the shout out to William, I know it was just a plot device so the grandfather would recognize something, but it just seemed so patronizing about what a saint Randall was for wanting to represent this underserved community.

It was a plot device, but I also thought it was him being an annoying politician making a personal story sound more important than it really was.

13 hours ago, qtpye said:

Does anyone else think it is hypocritical the way that Jack scolds Rebecca for coddling their sons but does not hold the same standard for Kate? Jack never says no to Kate or back up any of Rebecca's disciplinary measures to help make her more healthy.

Yes! I thought Jack came off terrible in this episode.

13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

I always just say gynecologist I've never heard anyone not on a medical TV show spell it out. I have heard people say "gyno" though.

4 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

I do wonder why a teen abortion or miscarriage wouldn't come up in Kate and Toby's fertility struggle.  I guess she concealed it on her medical history?

The writers probably hadn't thought up the plotline yet.

When I go to the gynecologist for an annual checkup I have to fill out a form that asks how many pregnancies I've ever had, so I am sure you would get asked while undergoing fertility treatment.  Granted Kate could lie.

And dumb question. I once saw a show where a woman lied and then the doctor knew because she could tell from an exam the woman had given birth. Is that actually possible? If Kate did have a secret baby would she have been able to hide it from a doctor?

Edited November 20, 2020 by KaveDweller

[nixgirl28]

19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I do feel like someone from the adoption agency would be serving as some kind of intermediary here.  They would be there, if for nothing else, than to try and help keep everyone's expectations in check.  Maybe that is not normally the case (I've never been involved in an adoption), but it feels like that is needed here. 

I was thinking that too. Wouldn't they be meeting with her with someone from the agency also with them? Also, I'd expect the adoption agency to set up some kind of way they (T&K and Ellie) would be able to communicate that was more private, I feel like having text conversations wouldn't be encouraged. But I don't have experience with adoptions so I could be way off base, these thoughts just crossed my mind.

[nixgirl28]

13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know anyone in real life that says O-B-G-Y-N. My mom has been an Ob/Gyn for 44yrs and my entire social circle says “o-b guyNEE”. 

I've never heard it said like that before. If I'm pregnant, I just say OB, if I'm going to a well woman visit, I say gyno (guy-no) . O-b-g-y-n is usually said, around here, in mixed company, but around friends it's either OB or gyn/o depending on context.

Edited November 20, 2020 by nixgirl28

[madmax]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:19 PM, LexieLily said:

Why was Vietnamese Grandpa watching the link in the first place? I know it was for the stories to connect and Jae-won did tell Randall that the video clip was going viral and making the rounds on news broadcasts, but if he just saw the viral clip I would think it would have just had the last line of Randall saying "Thank you, Philadelphia, and [whatever the rest was]" and then the strip show. He would have had to go back to watch the original link to hear the lines about William Hill, his birth father. 

The text under the video said it was the full video.  Why anyone outside of Philadelphia would watch it is the question.  Most people would just fast forward to the good part.

On 11/18/2020 at 2:10 AM, chocolatine said:

She also called Beth "mother," which I thought was hilarious. On a tangential note, I noticed that Deja calls Randall "dad" but Beth is still Beth. I think from Deja's POV it's because she had never known her biological father but had a close relationship with her mother (despite Shauna's troubles and later giving up her parental rights), but I'm sure it still stings for Beth every time she hears that.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember an episode with a conversation between Deja and Beth where Deja said she didn't feel comfortable calling Beth "Mom" because her mom was still around.

11 hours ago, ams1001 said:

I've never heard that one, but when talking about a doctor for a pregnant person, I usually just hear "O.B." since that's the part that's more relevant.

Oh, absolutely.

I've always heard the half that was needed at the time.  The pregnant woman goes to the OB, the other women go to the Guy-nee, even if they're the same doctor.

36 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

 

And dumb question. I once saw a show where a woman lied and then the doctor knew because she could tell from an exam the woman had given birth. Is that actually possible? If Kate did have a secret baby would she have been able to hide it from a doctor?

I believe doctors can tell from an exam because a woman's pelvic bones move during pregnancy and don't always move back.  That's why I have hips now when I had none before I had my children.

***

If that wasn't an error with the ovulation test, then Kate is way more messed up than we thought.  It would mean she purposely tried to get pregnant to that obnoxious asshole.  And since they lingered on it, I'm sure it was NOT an error.

Episode was mostly good for me.  I'm over Randall right now, since it seems most of the entire show has been about Randall.  I liked Kate and Toby, but I think because I like Toby, which puts me straight in the minority.  I thought Kevin did the best here.  He has shown real growth since the beginning.  Unlike his siblings.

 

ETA:  The idea that Vietnamese grandpa would recognize William Hill's name is really ludicrous.  First off, William HIll is a very common name.  If it was Wilfred Hillsrtall, that's a different story.  Second, Randall is in Philadelphia, Laurel was from Pittsburgh.  They're in the same state, they're not right next to each other.

Edited November 20, 2020 by madmax
another thought

[Ohmo]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:05 PM, Quickbeam said:

Finally some Kevin depth.

I liked that, too...along with viewers seeing that there was a time in Kevin's life when Rebecca was thinking more about him than Randall or Kate. Kevin was still an infant, but often he seemed like the "forgotten" kid with his parents or the one they parented when they got around to it.  I know Jack and Rebecca loved him, but he always seemed kind of "expendable" to them. I was glad to see a time when Rebecca was very focused on him.

I have to say, though, I thought Foster's behavior was more him trying to hit on the actress than anything having to do with Kevin.  The guy barely let Kevin say a group of lines, so how could he tell what kind of actor Kevin was?

Edited November 20, 2020 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:40 PM, bybrandy said:

But prop mistake, right?!?!?

Unless in her then 18 year old mind, she was trying to get pregnant in order to get Mark to stay with her.  He was horrible, but I seem to recall a time where she really was trying to get him to notice her,  However, I have a difficult time thinking that an 18 year old girl would know what an ovulation test kit was, much less seek one out.  it's more likely that it is indeed a props mistake.

[Madding crowd]

20 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I do feel like someone from the adoption agency would be serving as some kind of intermediary here.  They would be there, if for nothing else, than to try and help keep everyone's expectations in check.  Maybe that is not normally the case (I've never been involved in an adoption), but it feels like that is needed here. 

In a private adoption there is  sometimes no agency at all and lots of people get scammed or disappointed in the end. The adoptive parents get a lawyer to handle all the paperwork and make sure everything is legal. There are agencies that put together birth moms and potential parents but these days they are usually just providing background checks and putting people together. I know many people who adopted and looked into myself and they all met one on one with the potential mom. 

[gameshowjunkie]

On 11/18/2020 at 9:33 AM, RedDelicious said:

 

Where is this Malik's family is poor coming from?  His dad has a busy garage and his mom has a job where she wears business attire to work.  I never got the impression that they were poor, just that both parents worked and they had to coordinate their busy schedules to help their teenage son care for his baby daughter.  They don't have money like Beth and Randall, but they seem to be comfortable.

I was thinking more of the fact that Malik is the father and he is a teenage student.

 

In terms of college though there's a good chance he'd get a lot of aid. My son is a HS senior so we're going through the process now. Annual room and board at an Ivy is in the 75k range. 

1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

I'm sure having a great body takes the sting out of it. It will probably make him appear more human to his constituents and his popularity will go through the roof. 

Agreed! If he had a flabby  belly he might not have taken it as well. I'm impressed with anyone who hasn't put on weight during this pandemic.

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah its almost like Kevin wants some direction...from his director...who would have guessed? I wonder if the director was forced to hire Kevin by the studio, and that's why he gushed over Ava, who he actually wanted, while being all annoyed at Kevin for even saying hi to him, maybe the studio funding the movie required them to hire a more commercial "name" for him to get the funding for the movie? 

I think that's a reasonable possibility, and the director may be thinking that he'll bring Ava along to where he wants her, and Kevin is just a prop.  I wouldn't be surprised to see him backstabbing Kevin along the way (the attaboy basket might be a start), and demand a replacement.

One the sunny side, I was tickled by Jack's consternation that no one in his family recognized "Nobody can eat 50 eggs."  And then to find out the coach was on the same wavelength.  I'm surprised Kevin was blowing chunks on the practice field after that load up at breakfast.