S03.E05: Die Trying

[paulvdb]

Quote

After reuniting with what remains of Starfleet and the Federation, the U.S.S. Discovery and its crew must prove that a 930 year old crew and starship are exactly what this new future needs.

Premiere date: November 12, 2020

[paigow]

Resident Evil: Discovery - Hypnotized Georgiou

[dwmarch]

I had a laugh at this episode that I don't think the producers were going for. When they are trying to access the seed vault they find out that the Barzan dude has put a password on it. Sensible precaution to be sure. They don't even suggest trying to hack it despite having easy access to the logs for samples of Barzan dude's voice. But if they had tried to hack it, it would have taken about five seconds because Barzan dude used the name of his kids as the password. His kids are also named after things that would be in the dictionary. They could have had some dialogue about how the system was smart enough to detect a deep fake or it used biometrics or something but nope, it's protected by weaker security than what is available on my cell phone today.

I also found it weird that Discovery leaves a crew member behind to look after the seed ship and New Starfleet is somehow just okay with it. Infiltrators from the past just jacked your seed vault and you don't even care? Nhan didn't ask if she could take the place of the Barzan family, she just assumed the position. Not a great way to introduce yourself to the new command structure if you ask me.

Were they going for a Firefly reference with the interrogations? Because that same scene was done so much better on Firefly and that was only about three episodes in.

Georgiou can disrupt holograms by blinking? That's kind of random. They can't be programmed to ignore it? And how would she know this anyhow?

They didn't give us a good look at the ship but Voyager-J's hull looked very similar to Voyager's hull. There is no particular reason for this to be the case and this show has pretty much ignored the design lineage of almost every other ship in Star Trek history.

How are the new ships traveling around anyhow? The seed ship is five months away but by what?

Hey, how does everybody know that same song? They have Spotify, Michael. Duh.

The seed vault had a weird interface. If you want Miracle Cure #47 a whole bunch of other seeds light up in a Plinko-style pattern until you finally get down to where your requested seeds are being kept. No wonder the Barzan dude went nuts if he had to go through that every time he wanted to test a new plant. New Starfleet HQ was similar - really annoying ambient noises, overly bright lights everywhere and floors that don't appear until you try to walk on them. How does anyone get any actual work done there?

The show didn't dwell on this and I'm not sure I would have wanted them to but dude was doing science experiments on his dead family?

Why didn't they grab some other seed samples while they were there? I'm sure Detmer would appreciate some space cheeba right about now.

[starri]

8 hours ago, dwmarch said:

They didn't give us a good look at the ship but Voyager-J's hull looked very similar to Voyager's hull. There is no particular reason for this to be the case and this show has pretty much ignored the design lineage of almost every other ship in Star Trek history.

I think what they were going for was an evolution of the Intrepid-class.  Owo (I think) made a comment about one of the other ships looking like it was Constitution-class.  Which now makes me hope we see the 32nd Century Enterprise.

I liked Admiral Vance a lot, but it kind of surprised me that no one suggested that Disco's first assignment be to start repairing the subspace relays, so that the Federation planets could talk to each other again.

[Kromm]

I had some real issues with this episode, even moreso since I think several of the past few have been pretty good.  While there's some spectacular stuff in terms of Worldbuilding and effects, the rest just seems amateur level writing.

Anyone annoyed at how amazing and overhyped Burham can get should, if they're being honest with themselves, be doubly annoyed at the stuff with Georgiou this episode. Sure she's still Michele Yeogh charismatic, and that's always inherently good, but a woman dated not only by 900 years but from being from an aternate universe shouldn't be intuitively figuring out how to corrupt holograms with blinking. It's just stupid.

The little speech Nhan (and isn't that a horrible character name... she sounds like freaking BREAD) gave Burnham at the end was cringeworthy, but I do think that the sequence with Burnham confidently commanding the crew earlier in the episode was one of the best things they've done in terms of actually SHOWING, rather than just annoyingly telling us, about her competence.  So there's that.  But in the same episode we get her acting arrogant, disrespectful of authority and reckless.  So... there's also that.  Ugh.

The all or nothing approach of Nu-Starfleet Admiral came off as badly thought out by the writers.  His original plan seemed perfectly logical actually, but if Burnham had a point about somehow needing the ENTIRE crew (and not just Stamets and a few really knowledgeable Engineers) to run the Spore Drive than I don't get just having three modern security people be the accompaniment.  We know the ship is running understaffed and on top of that is also missing the huge extra security contingent from the early seasons.  So there's ROOM on the ship for at least as many new people as the existing crew. 

They'd better FIX this next episode rather than just sending the ship out as is.  Unless the wank is going to be that despite all we saw floating around the base, that Starfleet is short of people.  But even still?  Logically there'd HAVE to be at least a few modern engineers to train the crew and maintain any new systems they install.  Logically there'd have to be a few... spies... okay... Starfleet Intelligence people there, some openly to advise Saru about the current state of affairs and a few there covertly working in other areas.  You'd need at least one up to date Doctor, as much as emotionally it might be devastating to the current Doctor to find out his level of knowledge is akin to using leeches to fix people.  You'd need a few overt modern Science Officers, besides just the Engineers, covering stuff like Physics, Astrophysics, Biology, Computer Sciences, etc.  Fields where 900 years of progress, even with some regression in the past few years, means you'd desperately need them. And a member of the modern Diplomatic Core if the primary mission is to reestablish contact with stranded ex-Federation planets.  My gut already tells me that they're likely to not just handwave this stuff away, but probably not even mention it, and that annoys me.  I get the narrative that the crew has promoted this weird niche where they aren't the useless equivalent of Medieval people in this modern world, but there are practicalities to be considered.  It can't dominate the show doing so, but needs to be directly addressed in some way.  But it probably won't be.

The new ships were delightful though, and fun.  Clearly they made a big deal of USS Voyager (NCC-74656-J). 

There were many more I'm sure The Memory Alpha website will get filled up with soon.  Already there's an entry for the rather interestingly named USS Nog (NCC-325070) : https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Nog

It's a clear tribute, especially since apparently Alex Kurtzman has already said the ship class is the Eisenberg-class.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Kromm

[Arynm]

29 minutes ago, Kromm said:

There were many more I'm sure The Memory Alpha website will get filled up with soon.  Already there's an entry for the rather interestingly named USS Nog (NCC-325070) : https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Nog

It's a clear tribute, especially since apparently Alex Kurtzman has already said the ship class is the Eisenberg-class.

I can't tell you how much I love this! I am watching DS-9 right now, for the first time, because it didn't interest me when it came out. I missed a lot. Voyager was my favorite show(don't judge!) so I teared up when I saw it.

I really liked the new Starfleet, even though it might be too much show not enough substance. I guess time will tell. Oded Fehr is my bae so I am thrilled to see him looking very dapper in the new Starfleet uniform.

Georgiou is making me worry, what did that creepy Dr. do to her? I am glad we are still seeing Detmer and her PTSD many shows would just rug sweep that.

 

[thuganomics85]

I figured whoever Georgiou was with was going to end up being played by someone famous since it felt like the episode was really showing him more than needed, and I see that was writer/director David Cronenberg of The Fly (1986 version), Scanners, and A History of Violence fame, which is kind of cool.  Maybe next season they'll take a page out of The Mandalorian's playbook and get Werner Herzog in here as someone sinister!

Always great seeing Oded Fehr, even if the Admiral was kind of a dick (at least to the protagonists.)  To be fair, that was a lot to take in and I can understand his caution.  Plus, while I understand her frustrations, Michael's approach really wasn't the right way to handle someone like him.  Glad Saru was more level-headed and found a way to appease him.  But I wonder if he'll come around more or is he destined to remain a thorn in their side.

Cool learning more about Nhan's species, but I'm surprised that she is staying behind since Rachel Ancheril got promoted to a regular this season.  I guess she might show back up.

Stamets and Reno continues to be fun (alongside Tilly!)

Detmer seems to be a bit better, but still in a funk on some levels.

The Federation's new homebase and how they function was interesting.  Hope we see more of that.

[DrScottie]

We know about prions now, They cause Cruzfeldt-Jakob-Disease and a variant is known as mad cow disease. There's no cure now, but you'd think they would have had a thousand years to figure it out. They have transporters with biofilters in the 24th century so you'd think that would have been an option. 

Maybe Nhan wanted to stay in the environment where she won't need her respirator. At least she's still be around, unlike Airiam. 

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Georgiou can disrupt holograms by blinking? That's kind of random. They can't be programmed to ignore it? And how would she know this anyhow?

Even if that worked back in her time and her Universe, they haven't fixed that?

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Resident Evil: Discovery - Hypnotized Georgiou

The line of "Why would you ever ask me a question like that?" was particularly disturbing.  Obviously, she's not okay. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by DrScottie

[Cerulean]

In addition to repairing subspace relays, you’d think they’d use Discovery like a courier or cargo ship to get needed items where they needed to be fast- why are they even talking exploration and science?
 

It occurred to me that it’s not just a medieval crew showing up. But one that knows magic- without dilithium no one else can travel easily, but the Discovery can... AND not just easily but can get there instantly. 
 

Would a destroyed ship have been ill omened? Otherwise, I’m wondering if there is another USS Discovery floating around. 

[Kromm]

14 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

Would a destroyed ship have been ill omened? Otherwise, I’m wondering if there is another USS Discovery floating around. 

The name was reused.  If you look it up, apparently a ship of that name in the 24th century was referred to in the TNG episode "Conspiracy". 

It's what I think can be referred to as soft-canon, because it's just something in the background though, on a screen Data was reviewing. 

So... if there was a 24th century ship of that name, there's no reason to think it wasn't again reused.  That doesn't mean for sure there's CURRENTLY one in the new timeframe, but it's a very logical name for a ship so... maybe.

I think there are bigger questions about Enterprise.  We know that ship reached "J" by the 26th century in a possible alternate timeline (which may still exist and in fact be the same as this one, since the Temporal accords were mentioned here).  So what letter is Enterprise up to and is one currently deployed in the 32nd century?

At the very least we know Enterprises have either had worse luck than Voyagers or the name's been used more, with J being the 32nd century Voyager, but the 26th century Enterprise. Enterprise could be up to Z or beyond for all we know.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Kromm

[MissLucas]

Damn it, Saru! How long do medievalists have to preach that a) the Dark Ages were not everything before the Renaissance and b) that the Middle Ages lasted almost a thousand years, produced a vivid, diverse and creative culture out of the rubble of the Roman Empire and set the stage for the Renaissance?!? This nonsense has to stop! Get better history books! I can't believe that the future still keeps maligning the Middle Ages.

Ahem... anyway, there was plenty of things to pick apart in this episode but others have already done that more eloquently. Just this: I don't get Michael's confusion about that song. Apparently it's relevant but the writing feels contrived. It could be one of many pieces composed in 930 years, so why should Michael immediately think it's weird that three people from the present time would know it? 

The dysfunctional engineering team was the highlight of the episode.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by MissLucas

[crazymadness]

3 hours ago, MissLucas said:

 I don't get Michael's confusion about that song.

Seriously.  The Federation had 300+ members spanning the galaxy before The Burn.  I'm sure there's any number of cultural touchstones that spanned many worlds since back then communication was easy.  But, of course, since Michael noticed it, it must be very important.  

I honestly rolled my eyes at the idea that this crew could even function in a world 900 years more advanced than their frame of reference.  Can you image a person from even 200 years ago offering advice on the best way to do something today, much less being as insistent as Michael was about finding a cure for the disease. 

It's frustrating because I was starting to enjoy this season up till now.

Edited November 13, 2020 by crazymadness

[marinw]

5 hours ago, crazymadness said:

he Federation had 300+ members spanning the galaxy before The Burn

I thought there were thousands in the TNG era.

[Starchild]

23 hours ago, dwmarch said:

The seed vault had a weird interface. If you want Miracle Cure #47 a whole bunch of other seeds light up in a Plinko-style pattern until you finally get down to where your requested seeds are being kept. No wonder the Barzan dude went nuts if he had to go through that every time he wanted to test a new plant.

My interpretation was that the lighted panels were showing the delivery path of the requested seeds. In other words, the seeds were way up in the vault and had to be moved down to a level where they could be retrieved. The lights just showed you where they currently were and when/where they would reach you.

[Affogato]

I think there is an assumption in Trek that once you reach a certain level of technology you can handle an advanced technology, even if you don’t understand it, it is a member of a class of things and you can learn. Hence the prime directive. If you achieve warp drive you are a lot less likely to think unknown tech is an act of god. 
 

we see way advanced tech, the holos, but it isn’t hugely visible. they mention some aspects on the spaceships.  However. The Discovery has the spore drive which is hugely desirable after the burn.  No wonder they want their own crew in it. 
 

i assume connecting the relays would be a priority. 
 

i’m thinking the empress came on this trip with a way back, maybe she had a time crystal stashed in terran space. She was disturbed that the universes  were more distant. This is her 3rd timeline. Anyway, spy stuff.  The holo thing may be terran. The empress may be from the future originally?
 

i kerp on wondering about Adira and Gray. Not the same person. How is their diversity relevant.  I haven’t figured that out yet.  
 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Affogato

[paigow]

41 minutes ago, Affogato said:

i kerp on wondering about Adira and Gray. Not the same person. How is their diversity relevant.  I haven’t figured that out yet. 

In-show diversity...Non-Binary / Transgender becomes irrelevant when previous host memories retain gender identity...like Sisko always calling Jadzia "Old Man" to recall their shared experiences.

[Affogato]

18 minutes ago, paigow said:

In-show diversity...Non-Binary / Transgender becomes irrelevant when previous host memories retain gender identity...like Sisko always calling Jadzia "Old Man" to recall their shared experiences.

You would think but that was true in deep space 9.  So how is what they are doing here special? 
 

i do think the admiral and Tal had a thing, though. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

I thought it was odd that the Tikhov (NCC-1067-M) was still operational AFTER NEARLY 1000 YEARS !!  Plus, I was also surprised by how small the Tikhov was -- was it not capable of warp travel ?  Didn't see any nacelles.  Is that why it survived the Burn ?

Seriously, no upgrades to the Tikhov at all in the years leading up to the burn. Or transfer to a newer seed vault ship.

That looked like WAAY more than 6 months of plant growth om the Tikhov since the CME.  Shouldn't the Tikhov have been hardened against radiation, you know, to protect the seed vault.  And they never did explain why it remained stuck in an ion storm.

[Affogato]

13 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I thought it was odd that the Tikhov (NCC-1067-M) was still operational AFTER NEARLY 1000 YEARS !!  Plus, I was also surprised by how small the Tikhov was -- was it not capable of warp travel ?  Didn't see any nacelles.  Is that why it survived the Burn ?

Seriously, no upgrades to the Tikhov at all in the years leading up to the burn. Or transfer to a newer seed vault ship.

That looked like WAAY more than 6 months of plant growth om the Tikhov since the CME.  Shouldn't the Tikhov have been hardened against radiation, you know, to protect the seed vault.  And they never did explain why it remained stuck in an ion storm.

They did explain that the atmosphere encouraged plant  growth. You do think they would have added to the stash and upgraded the ship. I assume the vault was protected frim radiation. 

i think only ships actively in warp blew up in the burn. 

[starri]

28 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I thought it was odd that the Tikhov (NCC-1067-M) was still operational AFTER NEARLY 1000 YEARS !! 

The suffix likely means it's not the exact same ship that Michael referenced.

[ottoDbusdriver]

18 minutes ago, starri said:

The suffix likely means it's not the exact same ship that Michael referenced.

But then wouldn't the admiral have referred to it as the Tikhov-M ?  No different than the Voyager-J or the Enterprise-E.

The admiral said that the Tikhov was "still around" which made it sound like it was the same ship that Michael was referring to.

[marinw]

I don't remember if I mentioned this before, but I do like that the Communications Officer is a big(ish) and very handsome dude, as Comminication Officers tend to be female. A nice subtle show of casting aginst type.

Edited November 13, 2020 by marinw

[starri]

1 minute ago, marinw said:

I don't remembdr if I mentioned this before, but I do like that the Communications Officer is a big(ish) and very handsome dude, as Comminication Officers tend to be female. A nicem subtl show of casting aginst type.

We've seen female Conn officers (notably, Ro) and Ops (Ensign Perim from Insurrection), if they've had a pairing where both were women prior to Detmer and Owo, I can't think of it.

[paigow]

Why is Tilly so excited about Voyager-J? It is impossible for her to be a Janeway fangirl... Unless there was a famous Voyager pre-TOS

[TV Anonymous]

It has been several episodes that I feel that civilizations (human and alien alike) do not progress in normal pace. Discovery jumped 930 years in the future, yet the technological advancement in the 32nd century seems minimal compared to the 23rd century. Case in point, the starship engine. Putting The Burn into consideration, in 800 years, civilizations in the universe were still using dilithium-powered warp drive. The basic design and architecture of starship propulsion did not change in 800 years. Compare that with real life where 800 years ago our ancestors went to the sea with dhows and junks and now we have nuclear submarine. Or compare that with in-universe where warp drive was invented in 2060 and in 200 years they had full-blown space exploration. I would think that in the far future they jump from system to system with hyperdrive or something.

As well, our Discovery crew seem to be able to match their 32nd counterparts in terms of knowledge, medical, warfare, technology and many other things. Again, back to real life example, imagine if there is a ship from the year 1090 appears here and meet with a modern destroyer. Just one shot and that ship will be blown to pieces without any resistance. In short, I am a bit disappointed with how the show pictures the 32nd century.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I am loving this season!  I do have thoughts and nitpicks for this episode, though.

This show is centered around Michael and I am great with that premise.  However, I hope that the upcoming episodes don't always use Michael as the magical negress who can fix all problems.  This episode should have let Nhan be the one to help the Barzan doctor come to terms with the death of his family and get him to help the Federation.  Hugh says that Nhan was too close to the situation, but how?  She and the Dr. Attis were the same species; that should have meant that Nhan was better suited to talk sense to him.

I wonder if the man interrogating Georgiou is part of Section 31?  Does Section 31 still exist?  I may be willing to handwave Georgiou being able to outwit holograms as a result of her Terran heritage.  Michelle Yeoh is awesome, of course.  But how will the knowledge that the Terran Universe has long ago died impact her and how will that affect her relationship with Michael?

The Admiral and Senna Tal have history. I didn't like the way he treated Adira; he should have known what having relationships with a species like the Trill is all about by now.  Sisko didn't treat Jadzia poorly because he was close to Curzon.  I'm not expecting Admiral Vance to be busom buddies with Adira, but he should be respectful of the current host of his friend.

 

 

[paigow]

Why is anybody worried about a Temporal War Treaty when almost every Starship is hard-pressed to achieve Warp 1?

4 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Sisko didn't treat Jadzia poorly because he was close to Curzon. 

Worf was really mean to Esri initially...

[DrScottie]

6 hours ago, marinw said:

I don't remember if I mentioned this before, but I do like that the Communications Officer is a big(ish) and very handsome dude, as Comminication Officers tend to be female. A nice subtle show of casting aginst type.

That's Lt. Bryce, 

As operations / tactical officers, Worf and Data would often handle that duty as well. Open a Channel, Mr. Worf or Hail them, Mr. Data, but that's not their primary role. 

 

[ottoDbusdriver]

 

14 minutes ago, paigow said:

Why is anybody worried about a Temporal War Treaty when almost every Starship is hard-pressed to achieve Warp 1?

And where the hell is the USS Relativity ?  If there is a Temporal War Treaty, the Relativity should be all over Discovery's incursion into the 31st Century.

[starri]

How has it taken two and a half seasons of filming in Toronto to get a guest star that was on Degrassi?

[Kromm]

8 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But then wouldn't the admiral have referred to it as the Tikhov-M ?  No different than the Voyager-J or the Enterprise-E.

The admiral said that the Tikhov was "still around" which made it sound like it was the same ship that Michael was referring to.

We know from many iterations of The Enterprise that the letter suffix is not used in conversation.  Picard, his crew, other ships, Admirals, never called it "Enterprise D". I imagine it might be in official documents though. 

It also occurs to me that a ship can be both old and a successor. M is 13th generation, but a staple type like a seed ship would always be in service. A thousand years+ into The Federation, its pretty believable for 13 ships of that name to have existed, and even still for some of them to have gotten old and clunky during their time in service. 

57 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And where the hell is the USS Relativity ?  If there is a Temporal War Treaty, the Relativity should be all over Discovery's incursion into the 31st Century.

But that was from the 29th century. They've shot PAST that. Daniels, from Star Trek: Enterprise was allegedly from the 31st Century, right? Again, before this, assuming it HAD to be before The Burn (also some time in the 31st century). And this is the 32nd century. So there's room for all of that, but for the Temporal ships to be kaput as well. They wouldn't be allowed to go forward from their current time of service. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Kromm

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Why is anybody worried about a Temporal War Treaty when almost every Starship is hard-pressed to achieve Warp 1?

Worf was really mean to Esri initially...

Worf, who had a personal relationship with Jadzia and tended not to think too much of her Trillness, was mean to Ezri, yes. She seemed like a poor replacement for his wife! He may not have acted so badly if the next Dax Host was male.  Unless Admiral Vance was in love with Admiral Senna Tal, that doesn't negate my point about how he treated Adira.

[Frozendiva]

The cello song could be a musical expression of coordinates to get back to the proper century, or it could just be a song. There are only so many music notes and over hundreds of years, they could have been used many times. No idea if the temporal jump and the red angel and the 100,00 year old life form have anything to do with this. This could be a consequence of the jump. Once it is reset, the universe reverts back to its original timeline.

Saru looked really tall at the Starfleet 'home'. The Admiral should be suspicious.

The crew is somewhat dysfunctional but they all seem to work together.

The crewmember who stayed aboard the seed ship should not have just stayed. Starfleet should have assigned her to it.

Is Georgiu under some kind of mind control now? She was clever enough to take out the holograms but not David Cronenberg.

The Discovery crew should be very well aware that something smells rotten at Starfleet and the Federation.

 

[KimberStormer]

Well, I had mixed feelings about this one.  Most of my points have already been made.  But it's sure annoying that once again we have the logical choice of crew member to take on a task (Culber last time, Nhan this time) only to be told that no, Michael has to do it, because Michael.  I assume it's not literally in her contract that she has to be the star of every episode, but it seems quite unmotivated and dutiful at this point.  I know the premise was that Michael was the main character, gasp! not the captain (although I don't think you can really call any of the captains the "main character" the way Michael is, anyway, not even Kirk) but it's time to give other people a chance to shine. 

That is, if you can keep them; we continue the long Discovery tradition of shedding crew members.  I fear Georgiou is next; she's apparently got some kind of genetic defect, out of phase with the 32nd Century, and David Cronenberg (what a great person to do a cameo!  I'm so glad you told us @thuganomics85) is on to her.  It is indeed ridiculous she could hack the holograms, and it's so unnecessary: all they had to do was show her reading up on current technology like Khan did in Space Seed, and then I'd buy anything, because she's Michelle Yeoh and Empress of the Terran Empire, Mother of the Fatherland, Overlord of Vulcan, Dominus of Qo'noS, Regina Andor.  But instead she just somehow has magical villain powers that make no sense.  It was much better when she was just figuring out this new world the same as everyone, but from her own particular perspective.

I'm not a big fan of the dictum "show don't tell" but they sure did a lot of telling this episode, to its detriment.  The scene with Tilly, Stamets, and Reno was the worst of it, the Future Starfleet Jerk spelling it all out in a really hamhanded way.  "YOU GUYS ARE UNPROFESSIONAL!" (science science science) "WOW ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE AN UNCONVENTIONAL COMMUNICATION STYLE, YOU WORK TOGETHER WELL!"  yes thank you, we get it.  But of course the "MICHAEL, NO ONE IS MORE GOOD AND NOBLE THAN YOU" and "EMPRESS GEORGIOU CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO US THAT YOU ARE VILLAINOUS BUT BRILLIANT THANK YOU" scenes were awful too.

I really was hoping that The Burn would just be backstory we wouldn't be concerned with.  It is not an interesting mystery to contemplate -- what would be interesting is just having a story set here.  Instead it's gonna be some time-travel bullshit and if they go back and fix it or whatever I'm going to be so annoyed.  Just let the future not be perfect, writers, we can handle it, I swear.  They think we're little babies, and to be fair the fandom might well be, but I am not, and I think fixing shit after a disaster is more interesting than preventing the disaster with magic beans and a song.  Imagine Michael travelling to our time, and to her shock and amazement, everyone can sing along to "Can't Buy Me Love"...even people who have never met each other before!  My god what does it mean?!

Now, two historical peeves:

On 11/12/2020 at 9:06 PM, MissLucas said:

Damn it, Saru! How long do medievalists have to preach that a) the Dark Ages were not everything before the Renaissance and b) that the Middle Ages lasted almost a thousand years, produced a vivid, diverse and creative culture out of the rubble of the Roman Empire and set the stage for the Renaissance?!? This nonsense has to stop! Get better history books! I can't believe that the future still keeps maligning the Middle Ages.

Yes Saru's historiography is out of date in the 21st century, much less the 23rd.  I must point out that he's also laughably wrong about Giotto inventing 3-point perspective.  Giotto didn't even do 1-point perspective (which is what people did in the Renaissance).  The whole analogy was bizarre, like someone who learned art history from watching a Crash Course video on YouTube and decided to throw it in with no more research.

On 11/13/2020 at 10:25 AM, TV Anonymous said:

It has been several episodes that I feel that civilizations (human and alien alike) do not progress in normal pace. Discovery jumped 930 years in the future, yet the technological advancement in the 32nd century seems minimal compared to the 23rd century. Case in point, the starship engine. Putting The Burn into consideration, in 800 years, civilizations in the universe were still using dilithium-powered warp drive. The basic design and architecture of starship propulsion did not change in 800 years. Compare that with real life where 800 years ago our ancestors went to the sea with dhows and junks and now we have nuclear submarine.

OK but in 1700 they were using wind power, and in 700 they were using wind power, and in 300 BC they were using wind power.  I can allow it that nothing better than dilithium has been discovered.  Anyway, it's necessary for the story to work.  Perhaps by the end of the show everyone will have spore drives.

Edited November 19, 2020 by KimberStormer
typozzzzz

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

The cello song could be a musical expression of coordinates to get back to the proper century, or it could just be a song.

Egads, that would mean they want to pull a BSG with the song! I'm afraid it is something like that because they were as subtle about the song in one single episode as Doctor Who was with 'Big Bad Wolf' during a whole season.

I miss Book, not just for aehm... obvious reasons but also because he's not serving in the cult of Michael. Two episodes with Michael back with the Discovery, two episodes where she gets serenaded by a crew member about her awesomeness and two episodes with Culber acting as her hype man. The character was way more fun and likable with Book and Grudge around. Just like the score I wish they would tune it down.

[Luckylyn]

I think Georgiou has been replaced by an AI.  The real Georgiou is still in custody. 
 

The first priority should be to use Discovery to help reestablish communication.  Then they need to create a way to use the spore drive so it’s not dependent on Stamets and adapt the tech to other Starfleet ships.  As others have said there should be some new crew members to upgrade Discovery with the most current tech and train the crew to use it.  Discovery has a quirk of being in some ways more advanced because of the spore drive and also 900 years behind.  

[paigow]

8 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

But it's sure annoying that once again we have the logical choice of crew member to take on a task (Culber last time, Nhan this time) only to be told that no, Michael has to do it, because Michael.

TOS M5 computer called out Kirk for illogically always including McCoy & himself on landing parties.

[tennisgurl]

This season has generally really good, but this was probably the weakest of the season so far, which is rather disappointing considering this is their big meet up with the Federation.  It felt clunky, and that all of the exposition dumps just got tiring, they didnt find a lot of ways to make them interesting and I still feel like I don't have a real feel for what the Federation is now. It felt very jumbled, and the new characters were pretty one note. This was also one of those "Michael is super awesome lets our crew up but especially Michael" episodes, and those are always a bit eye roll inducing. Michael lecturing everyone in the future about stuff that they should already know was no way to make friends with the new Starfleet, so I am glad that Saru told her to back off. 

It was cool learning more about Nhan's backstory and her species, but of course that means she is leaving. I should have known, it was her first big episode to shine so now she has to leave for some reason. I don't understand why the show got rid of her for now, as her actress just got bumped to regular, and if they didnt want her around, they could have just left her back in the past, what is the point? I guess I am just happy they didnt kill her the second she started getting more screen time, and that she might come back later. In general I am really hoping that they spend more time on the supporting cast, I have long felt that anyone on this show not named Michael, Saru, Tilly, or Stamets gets the shaft, and while its gotten better about that, I really hope that some more of the crew get more to do. One of the reasons I love DS9 is that they really gave the whole cast time to shine, even giving the supporting and reoccurring characters a lot of good development, it wasnt that thing that a lot of Trek falls into where they end up focusing a ton on a few characters and the rest of them end up getting put on the backburner. 

Speaking of DS9, the USS Nog! Awwww Nog, that makes me so happy! Sisko would be so proud. 

Really Saru? People are still peddling that Renaissance era "The Middle Ages Suck" propaganda, even people that are not even from Earth?! I would think people in the future would know better than that, its not like people were just sitting around in their own filth for a thousand years waiting for the Renaissance to start, not creating anything in the way of art, music, literature, technology, or culture, no matter what smug "we basically re-invented civilization your welcome" Renaissance scholars told everyone. I guess in this universe, The Canterberry Tales, The Devine Comedy, The Edda Saga, The Tale of Genji, none of those exist! 

There was some stuff I liked of course. I always enjoy the banter/bickering between Stamets and Reno (especially during the interview when Stamets was asking if Reno said anything about him) and I am glad that we have found Starfleet again and they didnt string it out a long time. Also, despite his lack of knowledge about Middle Ages era literature, I still think Saru is a good captain and I loved his reaction when he realized his people joined the Federation. 

 

[ottoDbusdriver]

13 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

Is Georgiu under some kind of mind control now? She was clever enough to take out the holograms but not David Cronenberg.

I'm pretty sure those glasses David Cronenberg was wearing were NOT just glasses.

Edited November 14, 2020 by ottoDbusdriver

[TV Anonymous]

15 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

OK but in 1700 they were using wind power, and in 700 they were using wind power, and in 300 BC they were using wind power.  I can allow it that nothing better than dilithium has been discovered.  Anyway, it's necessary for the story to work.  Perhaps by the end of the show everyone will have spore drives.

Are you really comparing wind power used in a trireme with wind power used in a galleon?

[LittleIggy]

OMG, that was David Cronenberg! I knew he looked familiar.

I was hoping that they would get away from it always has to be Burnham saving the day, but no such luck. 🙄

Edited November 14, 2020 by LittleIggy

[Kromm]

17 hours ago, Frozendiva said:

The cello song could be a musical expression of coordinates to get back to the proper century, or it could just be a song. There are only so many music notes and over hundreds of years, they could have been used many times. No idea if the temporal jump and the red angel and the 100,00 year old life form have anything to do with this. This could be a consequence of the jump.

I can't see any situation where disparate people they encounter would be part of some unified communication to them. I think this is likely to be something else, although for the life of me I can't figure out anything that won't seem equally silly. 

43 minutes ago, LittleIggy said:

I was hoping that they would get away from it always has to be Burnham saving the day, but no such luck. 

Have you met James T. Kirk? 

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm pretty sure those glasses David Cronenberg was wearing were NOT just glasses.

I believe he's blind as a bat without them, so they had to invent a mysterious justification. 

[KimberStormer]

4 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Are you really comparing wind power used in a trireme with wind power used in a galleon?

Same wind, isn't it?  And same dilithium, in this case.

Forget 1700 if you like, it's still a thousand years between triremes and VIkings and very similar boats.

Edited November 15, 2020 by KimberStormer

[Chyromaniac]

It’s not like humans are “more evolved” intellectually now than they were 1000’s of years ago- we are just millennia ahead of them in terms of technological advances.  Even still, there’s plenty of incredible stuff that our ancestors were able to accomplish - some of which we can only guess how they did (and no- “it was aliens” is not an acceptable answer).  If an ancient Egyptian might have insight into pyramid construction that we can’t figure out, then why wouldn’t the Discovery crew potentially have ideas that future Starfleet might not have considered?

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Are you really comparing wind power used in a trireme with wind power used in a galleon?

For the purpose of the discussion it seems reasonable to say that. Even apropos. 

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

For the purpose of the discussion it seems reasonable to say that. Even apropos. 

Federation Warp Drive progression

First Contact: Viable prototype

Archer Era: Max Warp 5

Kirk TOS: Max Warp 10 

 Janeway: Exceeds Warp 10 but she and Paris turn into reptiles so...not doing that again

Pre Burn: ???

[Joimiaroxeu]

All the excitement and hope at the beginning of the episode made me think some dreadful must be about to happen by the end of the episode.

Oded Fehr was a handsome sight for sore eyes. He's aging very nicely. Good get for this show.

[Chyromaniac]

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

All the excitement and hope at the beginning of the episode made me think some dreadful must be about to happen by the end of the episode.

Yeah, I did think “the last time I remember sci-fi people being this excited about getting somewhere was in BSG season 4.”  So in a sense the fact that Federation HQ was even populated was something of a relief.  Still, placing the big heroic fanfare at the top of the show was a clear indication that things were going to be a little more complicated than our crew was probably hoping for.

[steelyis]

On 11/14/2020 at 3:13 PM, LittleIggy said:

OMG, that was David Cronenberg! I knew he looked familiar.

 

Ever since Nightbreed I've been a fan of David Cronenberg's acting. He's not a great actor, but his presence on screen carries a lot of gravitas. And his scenes with Michelle Yeoh were amazing.