S04.E10: War

[Ohiopirate02]

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

[Roseanna]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

Actually Camilla spelled it out already when she met Charles in the car, saying that what one wants isn't the same what can get, but Charles would not listen to her. 

She accepted the rules when she had an affair with Charles when they were young ("those who are bedded are not wedded"), when she married a man who was a constant cheater, when she rekindled her affair with Charles, when he married Diana and when they again become lovers.

She is a realist and knows that one can never have "all" or, if one can, one must pay the price. While she can now meet Charles only in secret, the advantage is that she and her family can retain privacy. That she would lose for ever (and would be criticized for all things the press and public didn't like), if they could get a chance not to "live on lie" (a term which she hardly used nor understood, as affairs were normal and accepted in her circle).

Plus, the role of the mistress is different than the wife's. The latter demands different qualities and skills than the former. It is said that when a man marries his mistress, the latter's place is left empty. 

 

[rozen]

12 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

Yup, this is Charles throwing a tantrum because he's realized he's stuck, and the more momentum Diana gets the more stuck he becomes. Camilla was just a convenient excuse for him to lash out.

[ruby24]

Just finished the season!

God, Charles is such a DICK! There is nothing interesting or attractive about him whatsoever. He's self-pitying, entitled, egotistical, whiny, spoiled brat, just like his mother said. He deserved that dressing down from her.

He just sucks SO much. I don't even get why Diana was hung up on him, still saying she loved him all the way up to her death. Why? Especially if he really treated her like shit 24/7, the way the show portrays. Was he EVER nice to her?

[Straycat80]

I just finished this season. I loved it. I know a lot of this was fiction but I hope IRL Diana and Charles had some happy moments together and it wasn’t misery 24/7. 
I thought the acting was great by everyone and most of the actors looked like the real people. 
I wish they would have shown more on Fergie and Andrew as there was quite a lot of attention and controversy with their relationship.

This last episode was my favorite because it showed the some compassion with Diana hugging the little boy in the hospital. And I felt sorry for Margaret Thatcher, she really was treated badly by the Royals and the men around her, my heart broke for her breaking down after they voted her out of office. I loved the scene where Elizabeth finally acknowledged that she did a good job by giving her that medal. 
The next season can’t come fast enough for me. I love this series. 

[tennisgurl]

On 11/19/2020 at 7:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work. 

I feel like Camilla has a much more realistic idea of what all of this is than Charles does. Camilla knows that if Charles leaves Diana and marries Camilla, she will be instantly vilified by the media and seen as the homewrecker who broke up the fairytale marriage of Charles and Diana, and being the Other Woman is bad enough, let alone that Diana is beloved world wide as the perfect princess, she knows that this will blow up all of their lives and make her the worlds most famous mistress, and that isn't something she wants. Charles seems to have built up this narrative in his head about how he and Camilla are this romantic star crossed love that is being kept apart by mean stupid Diana and that everyone will totally love Charles and Camilla when they hear their story, but Camilla can see how this will actually play out. They wont see a happy ending for the true love of Charles and Camilla, they will see a guy who cheated on his sweet and beautiful young wife and broke up his family for his mistress, who ALSO would leave her husband and children, a situation that will upset his family, society, and the world at large. She knows that she's the girlfriend and not the wife, and making the girlfriend the wife just...isn't what is done. I don't even think that Camilla was angry at Diana, she just knows that this isn't the right time for a divorce and that she doesn't want to be at the center of a huge scandal, the woman who stole Diana's husband and ruined her fairytale. Charles, however, is still clingily onto his fantasy that everything will be perfect if he just gets rid of Diana and can finally marry Camilla and that love will conquer all and the public will love them and forget all about Diana, so in his head, he takes Camilla's speech as Diana "making Camilla sad" so he lashes out at Diana. In general, "lash out at Diana" seems to be his go to solution for most of his problems. He cant stand Diana at this point, so he cannot contemplate why other people do, and he loved Camilla, so he assumes everyone else will love her, ignoring how bad this all looks to everyone who isn't him.

Edited November 20, 2020 by tennisgurl

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Straycat80 said:

I felt sorry for Margaret Thatcher, she really was treated badly by the Royals and the men around her, my heart broke for her breaking down after they voted her out of office. I loved the scene where Elizabeth finally acknowledged that she did a good job by giving her that medal. 

I didn't feel the least bit sorry. There were some rare bright spots for me but overall I found Thatcher maddening. Like her plea for the Queen to dismiss Parliament so she could cling to power. Or that really bizarre line about her job being the most important thing. It wasn't that part that struck me but she said it like she expected to be PM indefinitely. It's not a lifetime appointment! I mean, really. Her appearances on the show also left me puzzled over what she did to earn this honor. I don't know, maybe Liz threw it at her as a pity parting favor. 

I also fall in line with people who don't see Camilla as throwing a hissy fit, Charles got himself in a tizzy all on his own. Camilla just stated the facts and why she wanted things to remain the same. 

[kieyra]

Props to the actor playing Charles, because I eventually had to start fast forwarding through his scenes. I couldn’t stand another second of his man-baby stinkface any time he had to be in a room with Diana or talk about her.

I’ve never been particularly taken by the Diana mythos, but this portrayal certainly makes me feel for her.

[methodwriter85]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:15 PM, Umbelina said:

I think Camilla was absolutely in love and in lust with her husband, and it never changed.  Perhaps he was simply spectacular in bed, or they were a great match there.  He was a cheat though, like Philip and so many others, and that had to hurt.  So, she gets her emotional needs filled by the adoring and always available Charles, the besotted second-best, and future King, so a spectacular ego building catch among her friends.

(Charles gives everything Diana desires to Camilla, and Camilla is a smart cookie, she knows how needy and pathetically desperate for admiration Charles is, and lavishes it on him to keep him around.)

That's just my take on things.  Great sex can be so powerful, and not just for men.  I think, primarily, Charles was a bandaid and distraction from the man she truly loved and lusted for, her husband, not finding her "enough."

It was pretty telling that Camilla never says she doesn't love her husband, just that she loves Charles because he cares for her more then her husband does. 

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

It was pretty telling that Camilla never says she doesn't love her husband, just that she loves Charles because he cares for her more then her husband does. 

I got the distinct impression from this season that we're basically supposed to believe Anne's version of this whole thing, that Camilla doesn't love Charles THAT much. And I did think it was interesting that even when Camilla speaks, she's not THAT impassioned about Charles, she's just like, yeah, sure, my feelings are real.

It just makes Charles look like an epic douchebag, a spoiled immature brat like his mother said. Who just wants what he can't have and takes it out on everyone around him with bitter resentment.

[swanpride]

Dunno...Camilla is mostly portrayed as the realistic of those two. It's not really that she doesn't have any feelings for Charles, its more that she knows that part of her appeal is exactly the whole affair situation Charles might have gotten tired of her faster if she hadn't been the forbidden fruit.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

It was pretty telling that Camilla never says she doesn't love her husband, just that she loves Charles because he cares for her more then her husband does. 

Evidently Camilla  was not like Diana whose love turned to hate. Camilla continued to love the father of her children even if they led separate ways, meaning she wished him well. That doesn't mean that, even if she had not love Charles in their youth, she had not grown to love him later. Actually, that kind of love is "adult" - they know each other well and give each other what the other needs. 

Charles was right of sorts by saying "whatever 'love' means" (or was it "in love").    

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

Dunno...Camilla is mostly portrayed as the realistic of those two. It's not really that she doesn't have any feelings for Charles, its more that she knows that part of her appeal is exactly the whole affair situation Charles might have gotten tired of her faster if she hadn't been the forbidden fruit.

Or there is my guess.  Her husband Andrew was fantastic in bed, and Charles...wasn't.

Either way, she loved Andrew.  Charles was back up and ego.  IMO of course!!

7 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I got the distinct impression from this season that we're basically supposed to believe Anne's version of this whole thing, that Camilla doesn't love Charles THAT much. And I did think it was interesting that even when Camilla speaks, she's not THAT impassioned about Charles, she's just like, yeah, sure, my feelings are real.

It just makes Charles look like an epic douchebag, a spoiled immature brat like his mother said. Who just wants what he can't have and takes it out on everyone around him with bitter resentment.

I think Elizabeth's spawn are all epic douchebags and spoiled brats, except, most of the time, Anne.  I do think Anne was telling the truth there.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Umbelina
didn't want two brats in one sentence

[AZChristian]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Or there is my guess.  Her husband Andrew was fantastic in bed, and Charles...wasn't.

I also think that - especially at the beginning of the marriage - Camilla had been fantastic in bed, and Diana...wasn't.

[Straycat80]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

I also think that - especially at the beginning of the marriage - Camilla had been fantastic in bed, and Diana...wasn't.

Considering Diana had never had a boyfriend and was a virgin she probably wasn’t fantastic in bed. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Straycat80 said:

Considering Diana had never had a boyfriend and was a virgin she probably wasn’t fantastic in bed. 

And then add to that she was shy, insecure and sleeping with a virtual stranger. I imagine it was crazy awkward. 

[3 is enough]

As far as Margaret Thatcher goes, she still served as the Member of Parliament for her constituency until 1992.  Going from party leader and Prime Minister to backbencher is quite a humiliating fall.  She could have stepped down from her seat but she chose to serve out her term, which was admirable in its own way.  

Awful as she was, the show did manage to make me feel sorry for her when she held it together until she got home after her ouster as PM.

As far as Charles and Diana go, what an absolute shit show.  And I was puzzled by Phillip's show of sympathy.  From everything I have read he was one of her worst critics and had no use for her whatsoever.  

But as far as her hugging the little boy with AIDS, I really do not think that was a stunt.  I think she genuinely had empathy for a suffering child.  As I recall, she also made a point of shaking hands with adult AIDS patients she met, and she was one of the first to do so.  At the time many people really thought  you could contract AIDS through casual contact and her actions spoke volumes.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by 3 is enough

[Spartan Girl]

You know you have to admire how Diana just stood there holding on her dignity for dear life while Charles screamed at her. And how she stopped herself from throwing up after it was all over, as if she realized (finally) that wasn’t going to help matters.

They really made Emma’s Diana look so skinny this season it hurts to look at, knowing she was bulimic.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

And I was puzzled by Phillip's show of sympathy.  From everything I have read he was one of her worst critics and had no use for her whatsoever.  

From what I can remember, Phillip hated/hates Fergie. I can't recall anything about him and Diana. But I could be mixing them up. 

[3 is enough]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

From what I can remember, Phillip hated/hates Fergie. I can't recall anything about him and Diana. But I could be mixing them up. 

I was led to believe Phillip hates EVERYBODY.  

 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

As far as Margaret Thatcher goes, she still served as the Member of Parliament for her constituency until 1992.  Going from party leader and Prime Minister to backbencher is quite a humiliating fall.  She could have stepped down from her seat but she chose to serve out her term, which was admirable in its own way.  

Awful as she was, the show did manage to make me feel sorry for her when she held it together until she got home after her ouster as PM.

As far as Charles and Diana go, what an absolute shit show.  And I was puzzled by Phillip's show of sympathy.  From everything I have read he was one of her worst critics and had no use for her whatsoever.  

But as far as her hugging the little boy with AIDS, I really do not think that was a stunt.  I think she genuinely had empathy for a suffering child.  As I recall, she also made a point of shaking hands with adult AIDS patients she met, and she was one of the first to do so.  At the time many people really thought  you could contract AIDS through casual contact and her actions spoke volumes.

 

From what I have read, Philip hated Diana acting out specifically acting out in front of others.  He has no use for any displays of emotion.   Better to be like Anne who goes through life like nothing affects her.  But, Phil could also see that his son was being a shit.  His speech in this episode was about Diana changing her expectations about her marriage, how the Firm is all about Elizabeth,  and if she did that she could be happier.  He is telling her to get over wanting a real marriage with Charles.   Better for them to quietly live separate lives and fake a happy marriage when necessary.   Of course, this means Charles will continue to fuck Camilla and Diana must live a chaste life.  That is what royal wives have traditionally done.  And maybe,  eventually,  Charles will tire of Camilla and settle down with Diana.   At this point, divorce is not on the table.  

[dubbel zout]

44 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

And how she stopped herself from throwing up after it was all over, as if she realized (finally) that wasn’t going to help matters

I don't know how accurate that was, but I really liked it, too. It takes a lot of strength to stop that kind of destructive behavior. 

We saw Diana with a therapist, right? She was wearing a black and white suit and talking to a man. It seemed like a throwaway scene, which is a shame.

26 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

I was led to believe Phillip hates EVERYBODY.  

LOL. I think he hates people who publicly let down the side, as @Ohiopirate02 noted. 

[bijoux]

37 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

I was led to believe Phillip hates EVERYBODY.  

 

Touche. And probably closest to the truth. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Going from party leader and Prime Minister to backbencher is quite a humiliating fall.

Yes, but she had challenged, and won, the previous party boss, so she should have known that her turn to fall would become sooner or later. And if she humiliated her ministers as in Iron lady shows, it's a wonder that it didn't happen sooner.   

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And how she stopped herself from throwing up after it was all over, as if she realized (finally) that wasn’t going to help matters.

I thought that was the most poignant scene of the entire season, the moment Diana realizes she's literally destroying herself over people who are impossible to please. 

 

[dubbel zout]

Right, and that her bulimia wasn't something that was going to fix anything with them. It was such a simple scene, but so powerful.

[ruby24]

5 hours ago, BitterApple said:

And then add to that she was shy, insecure and sleeping with a virtual stranger. I imagine it was crazy awkward. 

That's why I wish this had been IN the show. It would have been more illuminating, imo.

Is Morgan somewhat afraid of the royals? I mean if he's gonna write about this stuff, go all out, man. There was NO sex at all in a season all about affairs and failed relationships, etc.

[Cheezwiz]

On 11/16/2020 at 11:08 PM, Umbelina said:

I loved that the Queen pinned that order on the defeated Thatcher, but I was distracted when she then left without the box.  It's not good that I was so taken out of the scene by that, the woman can't possibly always wear it, and wouldn't the box be almost as meaningful as the ribbon for her?  ha...yeah, I know, it's dumb.

Yes! No way I would have vacated the palace without the box! That scene drove me crazy! From the way this episode was written, it seemed the Queen issued this award to Maggie Thatcher as a sort of consolation prize, purely out of pity.

I have to wonder if Charles was quite as vile as portrayed in this series. Not defending his extramarital dalliance with Camilla, but I suspect Diana had to have been quite a handful at times. His was a family not equipped to deal with normal human emotions let alone serious mental illness. Probably one of the most ill-starred match-ups in history. I did enjoy the scene with an exasperated Queen laying the smack-down on Charles. Olivia was great in that scene.

I also enjoyed the scenes of Diana in America - I think she genuinely enjoyed interacting with the people, and contrary to the accusations lobbed at her, I don't believe she was grand-standing by engaging in close contact with those she visited with. I think she was just a naturally empathetic person with a gift for connecting with others, no matter how brief the encounter.

I wish the show would go 6 seasons as originally planned. Only one more season. Gonna miss this show!

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

I wish the show would go 6 seasons as originally planned. Only one more season. Gonna miss this show!

It is!  He changed his mind again, 2 more seasons coming up.

[Cheezwiz]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It is!  He changed his mind again, 2 more seasons coming up.

Really!? I hadn't heard about this! Yay!

[Umbelina]

Just now, Cheezwiz said:

Really!? I hadn't heard about this! Yay!

details in the cast thread, and media thread

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I suspect Diana had to have been quite a handful at times. His was a family not equipped to deal with normal human emotions let alone serious mental illness. 

I think that even in "normal" families it's easier to sympathize someone whom had known and liked for a long time before he/she becomes ill and that illness is known to all. It's much more difficult, even impossible, to sympathize an in-law who from the beginning behaves "strangely" and complains about the spouse, has illnesses that are not of common knowledge and are not even regarded as illnesses.      

[Black Knight]

On 11/19/2020 at 6:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

I took it as Camilla being relieved to have an excuse to give Charles instead of having to tell the truth, that she loved her husband and they were happy enough together that she didn't want to leave. She and Andrew had an open marriage with no hypocrisy. It wasn't like Charles and Diana's marriage in which Diana had affairs because she felt driven to have them. Camilla and Andrew were two peas in a pod, really - they liked being married while having sidepieces.

The showrunner said that the pandemic caused the show to lose two weeks' worth of filming. So some of the missed things that have been mentioned may have been part of the scenes that were written but never shot. They tried to edit as best as they could so that the omissions wouldn't be too glaring.

[MamaMax]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:02 PM, greekmom said:

I never will understand why Charles never married Camilla when she was single. 

I had heard that Phillip had a soft spot for Diana which was evident in the last scene. I cannot believe what an ass Charles was to Diana or how he blamed her for Camilla feeling bad. Boo hoo for the bitch.

My understanding is that Camilla was never marriage material because she was known to have been somewhat of a party girl. She had a well known sexual past. This made her not suitable as the mother of a future king. However , I also wouldn’t discount the idea that Camilla never wanted to marry Charles. She didn’t wait for him to settle down, she went ahead and got married. It’s possible she had no interest in the kind of life she knew she would have to live as the Princess of Wales. I believe she was perfectly content to be his mistress.

As to Diana, I’m of the unpopular opinion that she prob had a personality disorder. I think she had a lot of wonderful qualities, but was probably very difficult to live with.  I agree that Charles lack of discretion regarding Camilla was cruel, but I don’t really believe that Diana didn’t contribute to the unhappiness of the union.  I have personal experience with BPD and people with it can be enormously appealing to most people but almost impossible for people intimate with them who won’t cater to their every mood, whim, desire and endless neediness. 
 

[BradandJanet]

1 hour ago, MamaMax said:

As to Diana, I’m of the unpopular opinion that she prob had a personality disorder. I think she had a lot of wonderful qualities, but was probably very difficult to live with.  I agree that Charles lack of discretion regarding Camilla was cruel, but I don’t really believe that Diana didn’t contribute to the unhappiness of the union.  I have personal experience with BPD and people with it can be enormously appealing to most people but almost impossible for people intimate with them who won’t cater to their every mood, whim, desire and endless neediness. 
 

I somewhere read speculation that Diana suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder, although she never got a diagnosis nor went through any serious therapy. BPDs can be extremely charming, but they are an empty pit of neediness and manipulation and cannot sustain relationships. Diana also cut people out of her life with no warning--her stepmother, Elton John, for two--and then welcomed them back later when she saw them as useful or her mood changed. Diana's upending Charles by throwing herself on her sword during the meeting with Elizabeth and Phillip was classic BPD manipulation. I've always felt a bit sorry for Charles, although he had plenty of his own issues. I wonder how Diana's life would have gone had she lived. 

[Wordsworth]

Camilla's arguments in this episode remind of things I've read of Wallis, Duchess of Windsor.  She reportedly wasn't as besotted with Edward as he was with her and didn't want him to abdicate.  Apart from him no longer being a King, she knew that she would become the most hated woman in the Empire.    And she was right.

No, we can't blame the abdication for everything, but, as I pointed out in another thread, Edward casts a long shadow.

The Queen's lecture was so wonderful to see, especially in light of the previous episode in which she only addressed Diana's straying.  She made sure Charles knew that his future subjects know he's being unfaithful and that he's causing his wife untold distress.  Labeling them both immature whiny attention seekers who are driving everyone else up a wall combined with a warning shot across the bow about him being King worked well for me.

I did enjoy Prince Philip's attempt to give Diana another point of view.  They are all periphery characters in this real-life drama that surrounds one and only person.  

 

 

[SeanC]

On 11/18/2020 at 11:48 AM, benteen said:

It was frustrating to realize that this is going to be the last time we see these actors in their roles.  Tobias Menzies literally made the most out of every scene he was in and is always entertaining but they gave him little to do this season.  He got more to do than Helena Bonham Carter, who literally gets just two shots and no dialogue in this episode.  Olivia got more to do this season and in this episode (loved her smackdown of Charles) but Elizabeth was pushed back this season along with Philip and Margaret over the continuing Charles and Diana drama.

I think a lot of that is ultimately a reflection of the real history. In the early seasons, for instance, everything was about the Queen growing into the job, but she's a venerable institution now.  Philip has accepted his role in the family and in his marriage.  Margaret has run the gamut of her attempts to find love and a purpose.  They're all in late middle age now, and the Charles/Diana stuff was the story of the monarchy in the 1980s/1990s.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:56 AM, swanpride said:

But I guess most people would want exactly that from a show like this, as much Charles of Diana as possible. I might be one of the few who is actually more interested in events which haven't been part of every single royals special in the last 20 years.

I agree. I wish they would've kept this show with young Queen Elizabeth. This is not interesting to me, it's too current. Charles and Diana have 2 boys IRL and I don't think it's fair to them that this story is being told (not that I think they watch) but still, not cool.

Does anyone know if Diana really called the queen mama?

Are they using the same actors next season?

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Are they using the same actors next season?

No.  A new cast for seasons 5 and 6.  Google tells all.

[mmecorday]

Diana looking tearfully at the camera at the end brought a chill down my spine. She's realizing what her eternal fate is.

[Dejana]

22 hours ago, MamaMax said:

My understanding is that Camilla was never marriage material because she was known to have been somewhat of a party girl. She had a well known sexual past. This made her not suitable as the mother of a future king. However , I also wouldn’t discount the idea that Camilla never wanted to marry Charles. She didn’t wait for him to settle down, she went ahead and got married. It’s possible she had no interest in the kind of life she knew she would have to live as the Princess of Wales. I believe she was perfectly content to be his mistress.
 

Camilla's great-grandmother was a mistress to Edward VII, which Camilla supposedly mentioned to Charles IRL when they met in the 1970s. That's probably how she saw their relationship going in those days, and didn’t want anything more.

As much as Charles may have loved Camilla as a young man, by all real-life accounts, he also very much enjoyed being an eligible bachelor. People point out that Elizabeth got her way in marrying Philip even when he wasn't thought to be "suitable", and Charles could have done the same with Camilla. However, in a lot of ways, Elizabeth was tougher than Charles, and it helped that Philip wasn't averse to the proposition or its timing. Elizabeth also wasn't brought up thinking that she was entitled to have lovers if she wanted, so it was either marriage to Philip or nothing.  Charles and Camilla both knew they could still have a relationship of a sort, even if they both ended up marrying other people--family history told them so.

It makes for a more dramatic show if Charles is daydreaming of marrying Camilla in the late 1980s, regardless of whether he was actually known to have felt that way at the time.

 

[Neurochick]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:17 AM, Silly Angel said:

I really loved this season, but it distracted me that the show decided Young Camilla looked like Young Julie Christie. She did not. A huge part of Diana's currency was her beauty, and she knew she could trade on it to move upwards, so her well-earned jealousy of Charles' fanatical attachment to Camilla must have particularly burned. I would like for the show to have even briefly explored her anger and confusion not just that Charles was cheating the whole time they were married, but cheating with THAT (rude, sorry--I'm just trying to get into her mindset). Nothing she had worked on her husband; he resented everything that made her fresh--her youth, enthusiasm, impetuosity, and way with people. The only other thing she had was her looks, and Charles wanted someone with ... considerably less of that currency to spend.

Very, very true.  I wonder, if Diana and Camilla were reversed in looks, would people have taken to Diana the way they did?  I wonder.

I also remember when she came to Harlem (I think it was Harlem Hospital?).  A lot of people believed she eventually would have moved to New York someday.

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I agree. I wish they would've kept this show with young Queen Elizabeth. This is not interesting to me, it's too current. Charles and Diana have 2 boys IRL and I don't think it's fair to them that this story is being told (not that I think they watch) but still, not cool.

The events in this series are 30-40 years old at this point.  Much, much more current events are regularly dramatized; heck, this isn't even the first dramatic depiction of these events, by any means.

[swanpride]

It's also not worse than being paraded around by your mother directly after your birth. Nothing in the show is worse than what the tabloids claim on a regular basis. It is actually very tame, all things considered. Especially since it never expresses any doubt on the sanctity of the crown.

[Neurochick]

I think this is a show about very sad emotional infants, people who were never allowed to be; it was like they had to reach unattainable perfection, and no one is perfect; no wonder why they were all dysfunctional and acted like children, especially Charles.  If everybody’s done for you your whole life and if you’ve never really had to deal with adversity, you don’t learn how to deal with it; so you react to life like an infant.  An emotionally sober man would have been proud of his wife garnering so much attention, but Charles was only concerned about himself because he hadn’t been able to marry the woman he loved; so to him Diana was nothing more than competition.  And that was sad because SHE really loved Charles, despite him being an emotional infant. 

I think Diana was able to get over because she was pretty.  Had she not been pretty, people would not have taken to her the way they did.  Camilla was right, we’re all into the fairy tales; believing that beauty=goodness and ugliness=evil.  A look at comments sections of various websites shows that; if someone (especially a woman) is either unattractive, overweight or old it’s like: go away, go in the closet because no one wants to see you!

The scene last between the Queen and Thatcher was weird, because both women were from an era where you weren’t supposed to show ANY type of emotion or feeling.  They thought it made you weak (such bullshit!).  The scene was weird because it was like one mask talking to another mask.  There was no compassion, no emotion on either side.  I think Thatcher leaving the box was intentional.  She was upset, she couldn’t show it, she just had to get out of there. 

[ahpny]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:17 PM, Helena Dax said:

It amazes me that the Queen is able to have a moment of kindness for Margaret Thatcher, of all people, yet she seems usually unable to do the same for the members of her family. The bit about feeding the dogs was brutal.

Both moments were rather telling . With Thatcher, though the Queen's intentions seem to be honest and admirable, her follow-through rang as hollow and perfunctory. Thatcher is supposed be comforted after being tossed aside after a lifetime's work by the fact that only 24 such metals are awarded? How obtuse can the Queen be?

With respect to "feeding the dogs," clearly the Queen prioritizes the satiation of her dogs over the happiness of her family. Why certain people have no trouble freely expressing love for animals (dogs, horses, deer) but find it difficult to do so for people - even their own relatives - is a topic beyond this show and hardly confined to the royals. The scene where they panned across nearly the entire cast looking despondent was hard to view.

Edited November 24, 2020 by ahpny

[MamaMax]

53 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Both moments were rather telling . With Thatcher, though the Queen's intentions seem to be honest and admirable, her follow-through rang as hollow and perfunctory. Thatcher is supposed be comforted after being tossed aside after a lifetime's work by the fact that only 24 such metals are awarded? How obtuse can the Queen be?

With respect to "feeding the dogs," clearly the Queen prioritizes the satiation of her dogs over the happiness of her family. Why certain people have no trouble freely expressing love for animals (dogs, horses, deer) but find it difficult to do so for people - even their own relatives - is a topic beyond this show and hardly confined to the royals. The scene where they panned across nearly the entire cast looking despondent was hard to view.

Dogs' needs are simple and easily met. Food, exercise.

Peoples emotional needs are messy, complex, difficult, exhausting.  QEII  likely never had hers met, and doubtlessly had not a clue how to help others with theirs. I would go so far as to say she probably didn't realize that she HAD emotional needs. 

[Ohiopirate02]

Just now, MamaMax said:

Dogs' needs are simple and easily met. Food, exercise.

Peoples emotional needs are messy, complex, difficult, exhausting.  QEII  likely never had hers met, and doubtlessly had not a clue how to help others with theirs. I would go so far as to say she probably didn't realize that she HAD emotional needs. 

I think those dogs (and horses) help Elizabeth to meet her emotional needs.  They give her the strength to face her life as a monarch and her life as a wife and mother to some very needy people.  I saw her quick escape to feed the dogs as her charging up her batteries before speaking to Diana.  Like you said, the dogs are easy to take care of.  It's easy to pop on in, feed them, and get in a few snuggles.  The dogs are quick to show their love.  

[Neurochick]

13 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

Dogs' needs are simple and easily met. Food, exercise.

Peoples emotional needs are messy, complex, difficult, exhausting.  QEII  likely never had hers met, and doubtlessly had not a clue how to help others with theirs. I would go so far as to say she probably didn't realize that she HAD emotional needs. 

Correct.  With animals, you know what they want; easy to keep it simple with animals.

People are complicated.  You don't always know what they want because sometimes THEY don't know what they want.  That's why so many people would rather deal with animals than people

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

Thatcher is supposed be comforted after being tossed aside after a lifetime's work by the fact that only 24 such metals are awarded? How obtuse can the Queen be?

I think people are conflating two different issues here. The queen had nothing to do with Thatcher losing the premiership. That's the Conservative party's doing. The reason the medal she awarded Thatcher means something is that it's the personal gift of the sovereign, meaning Elizabeth has complete say over who gets it. It's not like the Honours list, which is put together by the government (via an honours committee) and the Palace has little to no say over who's getting what. And given that there can be only 24 holders at a time, it is a big deal. In some ways I'd say it's a bigger deal than getting a peerage. Just about every former PM gets some sort of peerage, but few of them get a personal gift from the sovereign.