S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two

[roughing it]

11 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

It's kinda painful to say it, but Jack Pearson has overstayed his welcome. I am *so* not interested in revisting the day the twins were born and so on. There is nothing left about Jack that is worth telling, I think. His story has come full circle. Enough.

Yup I agree.  Milo, you are now free to pursue other projects.  It was nice while it lasted.  (also OBGYN doc and William).  I now record TIU so I can fast forward which I did for this episode.  

[Cementhead]

What a great discussion you guys have going on here.  I appreciate reading everyone's thoughtful and poignant comments!  I've lost track of the many great points made by others that I wanted to reply to so to just add my own 2 cents, I agree with the posters that have said the BLM story line would be much more palatable if it was coming from another character's point of view or even a Randall who hasn't already sucked up most of the show's energy with his ongoing angst and naval gazing.  Randall might very well be exhausted and very rightly so, but as a viewer, I'm exhausted by Randall!  This is a very big talented cast and I LOVE SKB but I am not sure I have the energy for more angsty Randall time.  This would have been a great time to let the younger actresses get some good story lines instead of just helping Mom cook in the kitchen or watching tv on the couch.  They were practically AWOL last year. 

[Scarlett45]

13 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

The issue I have with your statement about shit is that there will always be some aspect of being a Black man that he will have to deal with, just like there will always be an aspect of disability that people with disabilities have to handle.  Even if he deals with the above "shit," there will be some other "shit" to deal with. If the message is, "I'm going to get my shit together before I talk to you," he's never going to talk.

I think we may have different understandings of what the colloquium "dealing with my own shit" , means in this instance.

Yes there are always going to be stressors of life, challenges, adversities, bills, injustices, general grievances- all adults have to deal with that shit every day until we die, we are certainly in agreement on that. 

But if someone is in a stage 8 or 10 of emotional ill health (like the pain scale of 1-10), they have to deal with that and get it back down to a manageable level before they can engage with other adults and connecting about their relationship.

For example-We have all dealt with this pandemic in different ways, and I have handled it pretty well (being physically and financially comfortable, and just bored and annoyed as fuck with caregiving duties), one of my cousins who I am close with and talk regularly had a health challenge, was in the hospital and rehab center for a month during this pandemic because he had another stroke. Although his issue was physical health, and I would say a 9/10, he didnt call or text me for almost two months although he was physically/cognitively capable of speaking. He was dealing with his own shit before he was capable of engaging in our relationship (I got health updates from his sister, also my cousin)- although I absolutely missed chatting with him (especially since life is BORING NOW), I 100% understood he had to focus on getting better and he would call me when he was ready. And he did. (thats the type of shit I meant)

Randall and Kate have never had rifts (like he and Kevin have), nothing about that exchange leads me to believe he wont talk to her when he is ready. He may need more therapy and anti-anxiety meds or techniques first. I dont see it as he doesnt love or appreciate her or know that she cares.

[Ohmo]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I 100% understood he had to focus on getting better and he would call me when he was ready. And he did. (thats the type of shit I meant)

In terms of that, I agree with your point.  However, we're dealing with Randall, Mr. "Everything needs to be just so."  Case in point, what he did with Rebecca.  His plan.  What he wanted.  He's great when he's calling the shots.  Less great when someone else is, and he often likes to take control (as he did with Miguel and talking to the doctor.  Kate was willing to talk to him, and he decided it wasn't on his terms.  Which is it?  He wants control, but when Kate was offering some engagement, he didn't control it enough. If he really wants to deal with his shit, he's got to deal with a) he will always be a Black man whose siblings will never understand what it's like to be him, b) everything will not be in his control and c) he will have to learn to do a and b at the same time.

[PRgal]

I think media and a lot of people, in general, mistake that everyone who isn’t white (or more accurately, white, middle class and Protestant) experiences discrimination the same way.  For example, when I found out one of the cops involved in the George Floyd case is Hmong, I was like “oh, $h!t.....he’s Asian.  Combine that with Covid, Asians in some parts could experience double whammies...”. I’m not sure non-Asians would even think that.  And then some people confuse some issues as systemic when it could be culturally influenced based on when am individual arrived in a new country (we often talk about time warps...people stuck in following customs from a time their families arrived when it’s not even done in the old country anymore.  Or not the same way).  I’ve even been shut down and told that I was bringing up “whataboutism” when I bring up certain issues (for example, as a Roman Catholic in Canada, I really have to worry about people hating me because I’m Catholic.  My husband, on the other hand, is Jewish.  Anti-semitism is on the rise).  So yeah, while I wouldn’t go overboard like Kate did on the show, I’m not sure if I’d fully understand how Randall and his family feels.  

[CarpeFelis]

23 hours ago, greekmom said:

I think when Challenger happened (and 9/11) Randall would have been glued to the news 24/7 than Kate or Kevin who would have tuned in a bit here and there to see what is going on.

I doubt that. They were 5 1/2 when Challenger happened. I was almost 6 when JFK was shot and all I can remember is being annoyed that none of my cartoons were on due to 24/7 news coverage.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Ohmo said:

However, we're dealing with Randall, Mr. "Everything needs to be just so."  Case in point, what he did with Rebecca.  His plan.  What he wanted.  He's great when he's calling the shots.  Less great when someone else is, and he often likes to take control (as he did with Miguel and talking to the doctor. 

Which I 100% agree Randall was WRONG WRONG WRONG about, and the emotional blackmail of his mother was HORRIFIC and he must atone for how he behaved with that. He was WRONG. Period.

 

2 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

if he really wants to deal with his shit, he's got to deal with a) he will always be a Black man whose siblings will never understand what it's like to be him, b) everything will not be in his control and c) he will have to learn to do a and b at the same time.

Yes he does need to do that in a healthy way, and not do things like emotionally blackmail his MOTHER for Pete's sakes (that still enrages me).

But Randall can be absolutely wrong in how he handled one thing, and understandable in how he handled another- even if he was the same person in both situations. That's just how I see it. If someone wants to call what Randall did to Rebecca horrific and being a bad son I will stand up and cheer, to call him a bad brother to Kate for their exchange, I just dont see it that way.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, Cementhead said:

What a great discussion you guys have going on here.  I appreciate reading everyone's thoughtful and poignant comments!  I've lost track of the many great points made by others that I wanted to reply to so to just add my own 2 cents, I agree with the posters that have said the BLM story line would be much more palatable if it was coming from another character's point of view or even a Randall who hasn't already sucked up most of the show's energy with his ongoing angst and naval gazing.  Randall might very well be exhausted and very rightly so, but as a viewer, I'm exhausted by Randall!  This is a very big talented cast and I LOVE SKB but I am not sure I have the energy for more angsty Randall time.  This would have been a great time to let the younger actresses get some good story lines instead of just helping Mom cook in the kitchen or watching tv on the couch.  They were practically AWOL last year. 

This, exactly. I want to support all of Randall's feelings as a black man in the BLM movement, but I am so impatient with him for every other aspect of his character and story that I am thisclose to hating him, and it is very difficult to separate that when posting about this show. That's what I meant when I said I wish they weren't conflating the stories. Show me Beth's reactions, or their reactions as a family (with the girls) Deja, Malik and his family, anything but more woe-is-Randall.

ETA: To my recollection, we haven't seen Randall suffer many, if any, negative experiences solely due to his race (I'm talking about the big things, like being hurt/harassed for driving while black, etc). Most of his experience has been passive, while leading a fairly privileged life. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that at least some of what he's dealing with now is internalized guilt.

Edited October 29, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[debraran]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I think Sophie-Kevin will always be that "what could have been" relationship for both of them. Not that this show is realistic, but that would be more realistic than them somehow getting together again.  A teen romance that didn't work followed by an attempt at getting back together that didn't work.

I can’t shake the fact she wouldn’t wear her grandmothers ring and he asked her grandmothers soul for another chance with her to earn it.  Just too romantic. A one night stand ( and he didn’t want  to see her again ) I can’t fully embrace. Time will tell. As the writers said “ a very winding path for Kevin” 

Edited October 29, 2020 by debraran

[sara416]

1 hour ago, lovetowrite73 said:

Some of the comments on this board regarding Randall and his reaction to Kate's comments just open my eyes to the fact that I am not among too many allies here. He did NOT go off on his sister. When you are exhausted, being hit with image after image and video after video of black people being killed at the hands of people who are supposed to protect us, well, you just DO NOT feel like having that discussion. He didn't block her out. He was depicted with a very REAL reaction that black folks have had during these times. That's privilege speaking when you mention that he should have just had a discussion with her right then and there. No, he should have the discussion when he's mentally ready - and, guess what? That might not happen for a long, long time, and - to me - that's okay.

Also, it doesn't matter that he was raised privileged. When an officer pulls you over, they don't have a clue how you were raised. I was doing pretty good but reading some of the comments here just threw me right back to when the George Floyd killing first happened and all the rhetoric I read online surrounding the killing. I am, again, totally exhausted.

So many people do not understand that when the conversation is about privilige, it is NOT about socioeconomic privilige. I don't know how many more times it can be explained that socio economic privilige and white privilige are two different things. I've explained this to people over and over and I still get hit with "Well, I had bad things happen/my family was poor, so I don't know what privilege you are talking about." I just told you what privilege means in regards to race. It's frustrating to me as an ally, I can't imagine the exhaustion that my Black and brown friends are feeling every damn day. 

[marceline]

I think something that is getting overlooked in the Randall/Kate discussion is that Kate has probably been coming on very strong in her desire to be supportive. I'm thinking of the scene with Randall's family on the couch and Beth and Randall's reaction to texts from Kate with the picture of her at a march and asking Randall what Black organization she should donate to. Both Beth and Randall react with fatigue. 

Race issues aside, one of the trademarks of the Pearson family is that they always flood the zone emotionally. How many times have we seen the members of this family completely overwhelm someone because they just have no concept of boundaries? Miguel, Beth, and Toby had to create a whole text group just to support each other as someone married to a Pearson.

[sara416]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This, exactly. I want to support all of Randall's feelings as a black man in the BLM movement, but I am so impatient with him for every other aspect of his character and story that I am thisclose to hating him, and it is very difficult to separate that when posting about this show. That's what I meant when I said I wish they weren't conflating the stories. Show me Beth's reactions, or their reactions as a family (with the girls) Deja, Malik and his family, anything but more woe-is-Randall.

I would have loved to see a discussion with the kids about this. And I feel like it would be well within character for Beth to head out to a protest and bring the girls with her. Maybe the show didn't want to get too into the whole protest thing because there are still people out there who can't see anything but the bad in those and it didn't want to alienate those viewers. Or maybe it was too fast of a turnaround production wise. Beth Pearson would be protesting or going to vigils or doing something other than watching things on television. 

[sara416]

14 hours ago, PRgal said:

Actually, it sometimes helps if the therapist understands your experiences/background (e.g. for me, a therapist whose parents are immigrants, for example).  And one who “looks” like you can work against your needs too.  You might feel they’re judging you (especially if you come from a culture who uses shame a lot.  Or what is interpreted as shame by people born/raised here).  

Yes. Everyone has different needs in therapy. Sometimes it is important for the therapist to have shared experiences, but sometimes that blank slate or someone who challenges you in a different way can be helpful. You just have to find the one that fits. Again, I'm glad they showed that you can break up with your therapist in an assertive way and be thankful for what they have done for you, while understanding that you need someone different. I have had clients who just stop coming and it would have been very helpful to know that they were not getting what they need from me or were just finding something different. 

[Ohiopirate02]

17 minutes ago, sara416 said:

I would have loved to see a discussion with the kids about this. And I feel like it would be well within character for Beth to head out to a protest and bring the girls with her. Maybe the show didn't want to get too into the whole protest thing because there are still people out there who can't see anything but the bad in those and it didn't want to alienate those viewers. Or maybe it was too fast of a turnaround production wise. Beth Pearson would be protesting or going to vigils or doing something other than watching things on television. 

Yes, Beth would have been protesting with the girls.  I'm guessing the new Covid rules for filming nixed any protest scene.  

[MamaBird]

25 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

I doubt that. They were 5 1/2 when Challenger happened. I was almost 6 when JFK was shot and all I can remember is being annoyed that none of my cartoons were on due to 24/7 news coverage.

I went to "On Demand" last night and watched the pilot.  I was surprised to see how much information we learned about the Pearsons in that very first episode; over the years I'd kind of assumed that some of it had come out in subsequent episodes.  The very first time we see Kevin he is with two adoring fans/groupies - shortly before he flips out on-set and quits "The Manny"- and he delivers a Pearson monologue about how things started to go wrong for him when the Challenger exploded!  He says his school was watching it on TV because of the "Teacher In Space" theme, and he was devastated when "pieces of sweet Christa McAuliffe rained down" on live TV.

[CarpeFelis]

On 10/28/2020 at 9:38 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

I think that they now struggle with including Milo into storylines, which doesn't surprise me. Once we found out about the Crock Pot of Doom, there was only so many storylines left to tell about Jack. So, we get the early flashbacks so that he can be integrated into the show. Yeah, we really don't NEED them, but I DO need a Milo fix, because I spend most of the show wanting to alternately slap around the various Pearson adult children. I seem to rotate wanting to kick a different whiney, preachy ass each week. I used to think that it was just Kevin, but it's all three that infuriate at times.

I wouldn’t mind the Jack flashbacks if they’d give us some completely new stuff. I’m getting pretty sick of the birth rehashes. We saw a few new details, but it was still familiar territory and bored the heck out of me.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

I wouldn’t mind the Jack flashbacks if they’d give us some completely new stuff. I’m getting pretty sick of the birth rehashes. We saw a few new details, but it was still familiar territory and bored the heck out of me.

I don't recall Jack having any even warm-ish feelings about his father, which they kind of showed us with the whole praying thing this episode. Is it a ret-con (though I can't imagine why)? Seems like a random thing to bring into the story at this late date.

[Racj82]

All of the things that happened in this episode and what got me was Kevin trying to reach out to Randall. Damn it! Although, i think Jack's dad trying not to be an ass started the tears.

That conversation between Randall and Kate. Just so raw and real. 

It reminds me of a pro wrestler Cody Rhodes talking about when he was first getting to know his wife who is black while he white. He told her that he doesn't see color. She said well you don't see me or struggle, who I am if you don't see my color. That always sticks with me. There is always a movement to just not talk about race, injustice, etc. But, you can't change if you don't talk about the hard things. Also, your race, gender, sexual orientation, where you live and so many things are important. It's not all there is to you but it's a part of your identity. You have to see it all to truly understand someone.

[nixgirl28]

14 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

In a private adoption, birth mothers can look through the people who want babies and decide who they want to talk to. Not everyone is prejudiced against fat people or people who take medication. Each birth mother has her own thoughts and reasons why she chooses potential parents for her child. I would value love and values over being skinny. Of course many birth mothers would look for those qualities but not all.

My thoughts on the weight issue is more longevity than fat vs. skinny. I'd be worried that someone as overweight as Kate is, wouldn't be around very long in my child's life. Obviously life is uncertain, the healthiest person can be hit by a car at 25, but the likelihood is higher that Kate's life will be much shorter. I'd hate for my child to lose their mother, especially at a young age. Then the birth parent would need to consider the health of the other parent if he's left a single father. Heart disease, depression, already raising a blind child, etc I'd be concerned for my child's future with that combination. I'm overweight and on medication for depression/anxiety myself, so I'm not throwing stones, it's just not the ideal situation most adoptive parents are looking for. I don't think skinny people are better parents or have more love to give, I just think them getting a call when they'd just put their video up is very unrealistic in itself, the other factors make it more so. 

[CarpeFelis]

2 minutes ago, MamaBird said:

I went to "On Demand" last night and watched the pilot.  I was surprised to see how much information we learned about the Pearsons in that very first episode; over the years I'd kind of assumed that some of it had come out in subsequent episodes.  The very first time we see Kevin he is with two adoring fans/groupies - shortly before he flips out on-set and quits "The Manny"- and he delivers a Pearson monologue about how things started to go wrong for him when the Challenger exploded!  He says his school was watching it on TV because of the "Teacher In Space" theme, and he was devastated when "pieces of sweet Christa McAuliffe rained down" on live TV.

Wow, I’d forgotten that! My own daughter is a little younger and had just turned 4, so not in school yet. That’s probably why I didn’t even recall the “Teacher in Space” angle.

[Racj82]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall Jack having any even warm-ish feelings about his father, which they kind of showed us with the whole praying thing this episode. Is it a ret-con (though I can't imagine why)? Seems like a random thing to bring into the story at this late date.

Most people are not all good or all bad. It's not retconning anything to show that. That's never something I've believed in. People are complex being.

Oh and of course Randall's mom is alive. People shall never stay dead on this show. Either figuratively or literally. 

[CarpeFelis]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall Jack having any even warm-ish feelings about his father, which they kind of showed us with the whole praying thing this episode. Is it a ret-con (though I can't imagine why)? Seems like a random thing to bring into the story at this late date.

I didn’t get that impression at all. I thought it was more like “I wondered what the SOB was praying for because it didn’t seem to do anything for him”.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

I didn’t get that impression at all. I thought it was more like “I wondered what the SOB was praying for because it didn’t seem to do anything for him”.

Overall, yeah, but I did get the impression of less animosity.

[Ohmo]

56 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

to call him a bad brother to Kate for their exchange, I just dont see it that way.

I don't think he was a bad brother, but I do think he was unnecessarily harsh with Kate, and he closed her down.  I agree with you about his tone.

I also think that he like to set himself up as "Jack Jr." the head of the Pearson clan.  I think it was you (if not, I don't remember who it was) who said that Randall is not Kate's dad.  Yet, he sets himself up that way, and then gets ticked when people come to him.  He's done that to himself.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, Cementhead said:

This is a very big talented cast and I LOVE SKB but I am not sure I have the energy for more angsty Randall time.  This would have been a great time to let the younger actresses get some good story lines instead of just helping Mom cook in the kitchen or watching tv on the couch.  They were practically AWOL last year. 

Tess would have been a great choice.  She coming of age while dealing with the intersection of race and her sexual orientation.  Plus, it would have been a way to place Kevin in proximity to Randall.  She explicitly mentioned that she's close to Kevin.

[Trillian]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: To my recollection, we haven't seen Randall suffer many, if any, negative experiences solely due to his race (I'm talking about the big things, like being hurt/harassed for driving while black, etc). Most of his experience has been passive, while leading a fairly privileged life. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that at least some of what he's dealing with now is internalized guilt.

Wasn’t there even an exchange between him and William about this?  I’m thinking of when William got hassled by the police for Walking While Black in Randall’s ritzy neighbourhood.  As I recall, it hadn’t even dawned on Randall that that was a thing, and he was more embarrassed about William’s clothing than anything. 

[Empress1]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:20 AM, cardigirl said:

I really liked Malik saying to Randall "They tell us to check on our strong friends ..." So true. 

I appreciated the show giving voice to current events. I thought Randall's conversation with Kate was on point. "I love you, but I can't make this better for you right now."  Which is what Kate was asking him to do. Her "guilt" at her privilege and perhaps her not understanding what her brother has faced all his life is something she has to figure out.  I liked that she said she was going to have to sit with her feelings for a while. 

By the way, @Runningwild, being raised by a loving family, with more opportunities available to him than his birth family may have been able to give him doesn't mean that Randall was not oppressed.  Privilege has nothing to do with money or how rich or poor you are.  It has to do with so much more than that. Privilege is more about being able to move through society with no thought about anyone judging you for the color of your skin. 

LeBron James, one of the wealthiest athletes and most recognizable people in the world, had the n-word spray-painted on his garage - and he wasn't even surprised when it happened, just tired and disappointed. Racism is never surprising; always disappointing. And as @SevenStars says, Randall being raised by white people is completely meaningless when he moves through the world. "My parents are white" will not save you from racism. I have a Black friend whose Black son is adopted. She adopted him with her now-ex-wife, who is white. Her ex-wife is now remarried to a white woman who has two white children; her son is the only Black member of that family. His family's whiteness doesn't negate his Blackness.

I found it refreshing that Randall had this conversation with Kate because so many Black people, myself included, had these conversations with white people in our lives after George Floyd's murder and Randall used the same word I did - it is exhausting. So often, what the Kates in this conversation are looking for is reassurance that they're not bad people, and IMO Randall simply does not have the emotional bandwidth to do all that when he's dealing with the reality that he is one cop's bad mood away from becoming a hashtag, and that this shit is not new to us and not going anywhere (see: Walter Wallace Jr. literally this week). It takes a physical and psychological toll to see people who look like you murdered by state agents who then face no consequences for those murders (I still have not watched the Floyd video and don't think I ever will), and I think he just didn't have the bandwidth to reassure well-meaning white people that they're OK when he is not okay. I really liked that Kate appeared to be doing her best to hear Randall and didn't get defensive - as others have said, I think she has grown.

21 hours ago, KLovestoShop said:

remember he was brought up in the 1970’s

He was born in 1980.

18 hours ago, zillabreeze said:

Even in Hollyworld, that was a huge opportunity to educate.

It's not Randall's job to do that. It's piling more emotional labor on top of the emotional labor that comes with seeing Black life consistently devalued.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: To my recollection, we haven't seen Randall suffer many, if any, negative experiences solely due to his race (I'm talking about the big things, like being hurt/harassed for driving while black, etc). Most of his experience has been passive

For one, I don't think I would consider your prom date's father storming out because he can't deal with you being Black passive.  Second, you don't have to be beaten by the police to experience racism. Micro-aggressions are still racism; they're like death by a thousand cuts. Remember when Kevin's ex pointed out that the cashier in the store gave her the stink-eye? She called that racist. It is. Randall's own grandmother treated him differently - worse - because of his race. That may not be physically harmful, but it's extremely psychologically harmful.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

For one, I don't think I would consider your prom date's father storming out because he can't deal with you being Black passive.  Second, you don't have to be beaten by the police to experience racism. Micro-aggressions are still racism; they're like death by a thousand cuts. Remember when Kevin's ex pointed out that the cashier in the store gave her the stink-eye? She called that racist. It is. Randall's own grandmother treated him differently - worse - because of his race. That may not be physically harmful, but it's extremely psychologically harmful.

I had forgotten about the prom date. I agree about the micro-aggressions, which is why I qualified my statement. I do remember the grandmother thing, but that is an example of his race actually being discussed and supported by his parents. Kevin and Zoe's experiences aren't part of Randall's - and that's what my post was about: why I wish he wasn't the focus of this particular issue at this time.

[Blakeston]

On 10/28/2020 at 11:13 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Has the show given up on the premise of the twins being born in the summer and switched to cold weather?  Am I remembering correctly the hot day a very pregnant Rebecca walked in the heat to get ingredients for Jack a birthday cake? Now at the hospital Jack is in a jacket.  And on the birthday reunion they are at the  cabin and it's jacket weather.

The reason they were wearing jackets has to do with a season 4 twist.

When we first saw footage of the big 3's 40th birthday in season 4, the writers tricked us into thinking that Rebecca went missing on Thanksgiving 2019 - only to reveal at the end of an episode that it was actually a flashforward. If the people in town had been wearing shorts, we would have caught on to the twist.

16 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I think Randall was "seen" by Jack and Rebecca.  Not in the way the conversation is being had today, but for the 1980s and beyond, for a couple who were not college-educated or particularly familiar with the idea of diversity, I don't think Jack and Rebecca did an awful job in trying to address race as a major part of Randall's life.  His speech with Kate made it seem like none of that happened and that he (as always) had to do the "heavy lifting" in the family.  That simply wasn't so.

Honestly, I think Jack and Rebecca did a pretty crappy job with racial issues when they raised Randall.

They almost didn't get to adopt him, because a Black judge explained to them that a Black child needs to be taught about racism from people who personally understand it. So when they got to adopt him, you'd think they'd go out of their way to find him some Black people to be a part of his life.

But instead they didn't bother exposing him to any other Black people until he went out of his way to find a Black family at the pool. Rebecca didn't even know whether he needed sunscreen or not. Jack gets some credit for finding that martial arts class for Randall with the Black instructor, but we were told that they never kept up with that.

1 hour ago, CarpeFelis said:

I doubt that. They were 5 1/2 when Challenger happened. I was almost 6 when JFK was shot and all I can remember is being annoyed that none of my cartoons were on due to 24/7 news coverage.

I'm only 4 days older than the Big Three, and I remember the Challenger explosion very vividly. The Challenger mission had been hyped a lot for kids of that time, because a schoolteacher was part of the crew, so a lot of us were really looking forward to it.

But for what it's worth, the reference to the Challenger was in the pilot, and in the pilot the Big Three were supposed to have been born a bit earlier. Kevin said he was in the second grade when it happened. (That didn't actually make any sense, but when has that stopped these writers?)

[Empress1]

1 minute ago, Blakeston said:

Honestly, I think Jack and Rebecca did a pretty crappy job with racial issues when they raised Randall.

They almost didn't get to adopt him, because a Black judge explained to them that a Black child needs to be taught about racism from people who personally understand it. So when they got to adopt him, you'd think they'd go out of their way to find him some Black people to be a part of his life.

I agree, but in fairness to Jack and Rebecca, as someone a little younger than the Big Three, "I don't see color" was the pervasive school of thought among well-meaning liberal white people when I was coming of age. (Little Fires Everywhere really nailed this with Elena Richardson - someone who huffed "I would NEVER make this about race!" while being proud of herself for asking a Black woman to be her maid, and having a fortune-cookie themed baby shower for an Asian child adopted by white parents - who also make no effort outside of the fortune cookies to incorporate the child's culture into their lives.) That's how a lot of my classmates at the private, predominantly white progressive (it now calls itself anti-racist) school I went to were raised. Those who cared to un-learn it, did. I think Kate is right that Jack and Rebecca did their best; I also think Randall is right that he knew he had to squash those conversations. Partly because that's how their family works in terms of all unpleasant subjects, and partly because that's a lesson you learn early as a Black person in America.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't recall Jack having any even warm-ish feelings about his father, which they kind of showed us with the whole praying thing this episode. Is it a ret-con (though I can't imagine why)? Seems like a random thing to bring into the story at this late date.

Jack did have happy memories of his father (like when his brother was born), but his father was also an abusive drunk as the years went by and physically abused his wife while mentally abusing the boys.

 

Jack did go to him for the money for the downpayment on the house, but didnt tell him he was married or expecting triplets. 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

I think it was you (if not, I don't remember who it was) who said that Randall is not Kate's dad.  Yet, he sets himself up that way, and then gets ticked when people come to him.  He's done that to himself.

Yes yes that was me. And Randall needs to figure out why that is. Being the "responsible one" (in actuality and self identification) comes with perks, but it also comes with burdens- he has to address that in therapy!

55 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Tess would have been a great choice.  She coming of age while dealing with the intersection of race and her sexual orientation.  Plus, it would have been a way to place Kevin in proximity to Randall.  She explicitly mentioned that she's close to Kevin.

 I would absolutely love if we had gotten more of Tess' perspective- I hope that we do in future episodes.

 

16 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I agree, but in fairness to Jack and Rebecca, as someone a little younger than the Big Three, "I don't see color" was the pervasive school of thought among well-meaning liberal white people when I was coming of age. (Little Fires Everywhere really nailed this with Elena Richardson - someone who huffed "I would NEVER make this about race!" while being proud of herself for asking a Black woman to be her maid, and having a fortune-cookie themed baby shower for an Asian child adopted by white parents - who also make no effort outside of the fortune cookies to incorporate the child's culture into their lives.) That's how a lot of my classmates at the private, predominantly white progressive (it now calls itself anti-racist) school I went to were raised. Those who cared to un-learn it, did. I think Kate is right that Jack and Rebecca did their best; I also think Randall is right that he knew he had to squash those conversations. Partly because that's how their family works in terms of all unpleasant subjects, and partly because that's a lesson you learn early as a Black person in America.

Yes I agree that Jack and Rebecca did a crappy job, but I too am a bit younger than the Big 3 (I think we are the same age @Empress1)- and I think Jack and Rebecca were working with the common thought of the time. They were given x tools and used them to do what they thought was best for their kid. 

Also PARENTS AIN'T PERFECT.

Loving wonderful well meaning parents make mistakes. 

I have spoken more on other boards about being a Sib (sibling to a someone with a disability- my sister is severally mentally disabled, proximately 18months to 2yrs old, she is 32 years old chronologically). I have the most wonderful mother who ever lived (truth and you all should be jealous), but she absolutely did a CRAPPY JOB setting boundaries with my sister, training and disciplining her. (so did my great aunt who was our nanny growing up) She let a "tall toddler" run the house and break our things because she felt guilty she was like that. The constant phrase I heard growing up was "I will buy you another one." whenever she took something of mine, that was allowed, I would have to wait until she bought me another one (as I moved into teen years it was procedure to lock things in the bedrooms). My sister never treats anyone (not me or a single caregiver) as badly as she does my Mom, because she knows "Mommy will let her have her way." My Mom being wonderful in so many other ways doesnt negate that she dropped the ball on a pretty important issue when your toddler is 5'9- discipline is kinda important. 

Jack and Rebecca were still loving involved parents, but yeah they dropped the ball on this issue. Now I think if Randall had been born in the year 2000 they would've done a lot better. I also think a lot of not talking about race with Randall WAS DUE to parental guilt- guilt that he would have to deal with xyz while their biological kids never would, so they put their head in the sand (connect my example with my own parent above).

[After7Only]

 

52 minutes ago, Trillian said:

Wasn’t there even an exchange between him and William about this?  I’m thinking of when William got hassled by the police for Walking While Black in Randall’s ritzy neighbourhood.  As I recall, it hadn’t even dawned on Randall that that was a thing, and he was more embarrassed about William’s clothing than anything. 

Randall knew exactly what was going on and that William was being profiled for being an unknown black man in the neighborhood.  His embarrassment was the profiling and nothing to do with how William was dressed.  

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I had forgotten about the prom date. I agree about the micro-aggressions, which is why I qualified my statement. I do remember the grandmother thing, but that is an example of his race actually being discussed and supported by his parents. Kevin and Zoe's experiences aren't part of Randall's - and that's what my post was about: why I wish he wasn't the focus of this particular issue at this time.

Even though his parents were supportive,, that does take away the trauma of being rejected by a grandmother based solely on race.  The thing causing the injury was removed, but the scar is still there.   And an argument could be made that the parents could have perhaps been more proactive in protecting Randall,   It's likely that wasn't the first time Rebecca's mother had said/done something racially insensitive.    Not placing blame on the parents, but pointing out where Randall was coming from regarding his feelings about race in his family's dynamic.    

[doodlebug]

On 10/28/2020 at 2:54 AM, project90 said:

I had the same thought 

 

found him. My father.

What? When?

I, uh... I hired a guy. It cost about 1,500 bucks. Now, I paid for it on the Amex. You're gonna see it. It's the personal Amex, not the business Amex.

I know, I don't care about the Amex.

I know.

So you're gonna...

No.

Why not?

Because she was a crack addict who died during childbirth, and he was the guy who left me at a fire station, probably because he couldn't think of anything more cliché.

 

I want to know, knowing what we do now, how a private eye could've figured this out.  We know William was never identified by anyone in authority.  We also know that he never went looking for Randall, Randall found him.   Since Randall was born at home with no medical personnel present and was dropped off at the fire station within a day or so of his birth, there is presumably no birth certificate done until the time of his adoption.  Most adoptees have a paper trail connecting them to their birth parents; Randall had nothing of the sort.  Did the private eye somehow magically find a police report of the OD, which wouldn't have said Laurel died, which also mentioned she had recently given birth and given the name of the baby's father and the fact that there was a newborn present?  And, if he did, why did he think Laurel was dead?  If she was dead, how was he able to link her to William and baby Randall? Some amazing coincidences that make no sense. storywise.  

Now, we discover that Randall's mother survived, so there wouldn't have been an autopsy done that would've shown a recent pregnancy, although if she was taken to a hospital after the OD, there would have been a pregnancy test done automatically on admission and it would've been positive and a gyn would've examined her and figured out she recently gave birth.  Of course, had that happened, the police would've been summoned and they would've matched her to the baby recently abandoned at the police station and the easy, peasy, spur of the moment adoption wouldn't have happened as Randall went to a foster home while his mother went to court to either get custody or to have him removed from her care.  Had he been removed from her, then he would've spent years in foster care as the courts decided whether his mother was able to parent him.  Most likely, he would've been returned to her custody within months and then bounced back and forth in and out of foster care if she wasn't able to stop using.

[Trillian]

You know, I’ve thought about this a lot (too much, probably), but I’ve decided that I wouldn’t have minded if they had fudged the timeline and had the 40th birthday in 2019.  I would’ve liked to have seen how the original plot line developed.  
 

Partly, it’s because I don’t think they handled the pandemic issue very well. They could have at least reshot the scenes of Rebecca in the restaurant and with the police, so that people were masked. And maybe had her wander off, rather than go out to buy a cake after they had tested and then all quarantined for 20 days (as Kevin said). You go to all that trouble to keep your bubble safe and then you let mom go to the store unmasked to buy a cake?  And then you let Randall in?  Sorry, buddy, it doesn’t matter how often you were tested, you could’ve picked up the virus anytime since (or been tested last before it showed).  Stay away from your elderly mom and stepdad, your pregnant sister-in-law and your (probably) high-risk sister. 

But mainly, I’m with the others who have said that they watch this show for entertainment and the virus is not entertaining. Racism is not entertaining. It’s not to say that these aren’t big, hugely important topics - of course they are - but this opener suggests that the show is heading towards being “about” these topics. I want my nighttime soap opera back, not a whole season of Very Special Episodes. I hope I’m wrong that this is where it’s going, but if I’m not, I don’t think I can take it

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Trillian said:

You go to all that trouble to keep your bubble safe and then you let mom go to the store unmasked to buy a cake?

In defense of this, I do 90% of my grocery shopping via delivery these days, but on the times I’ve run to the store to buy xyz- I don’t have my mask on when I’m talking to my family and leaving the house either. I put it on before I get out of the car and take it off when I get in the car.

A restaurant would've been a place Rebecca wouldn't have a had a mask on, and they tried not to show us the restaurant staff or the police. I thought they did the best they could with the scenes.

[PRgal]

I wonder if Laurel died soon after she was found alive.  Maybe that's the twist.

[After7Only]

4 minutes ago, Trillian said:

But mainly, I’m with the others who have said that they watch this show for entertainment and the virus is not entertaining. Racism is not entertaining. It’s not to say that these aren’t big, hugely important topics - of course they are - but this opener suggests that the show is heading towards being “about” these topics. I want my nighttime soap opera back, not a whole season of Very Special Episodes. I hope I’m wrong that this is where it’s going, but if I’m not, I don’t think I can take it

Grief is not entertaining.  Depression is not entertaining,   Alcoholism is not entertaining.  Dementia is not entertaining.  All are topics pretty heavily featured in this show.  Don't see how racism and covid are much different.   All are parts of life.   But to each their own......    I  love the show and continue to watch because of the stories told.  The show tells stories from a different perspective from other shows.   People have the emotional connection to the show and characters because they are relatable.   That's why it's called "This is Us".   

Relationships like Randall and Beth are very familiar to me, but not something I see on TV often.   Women who look like Kate and have struggles similar to Kate are familiar but not something I see on TV often.  Even Kevin, while his experience is not mine, there is a lot about his own insecurities and motivations that are very familiar.   

  

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I wonder if Laurel died soon after she was found alive.  Maybe that's the twist.

Just long enough to gasp that William wasn't the father (so they didn't need consent to adopt him out).

Heh.

Edited October 29, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[MissLucas]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just long enough to gasp that William wasn't the father (so they didn't need consent to adopt him out).

Heh.

Wanted to give you a smiley - but too dark. 

However the Laurel scenario plays out Randall's in for a couple more years of therapy.

[SevenStars]

I'm seeing a lot of comments about how Randall was the wrong character for this racism issue...to me that underscore the fact that Randall was the perfect subject for this issue.

It is easy to have empathy for a young innocent child. It is easy to sympathize with a character you already like. It might be easier to see the point view of a character you don't consider to have privileged. When it comes to racism and a lot of other issues these factors bring in the temporary allies

But Randall is not any off those things. He is a man, whose personality might make him unlikeable. He is a man, raised and love by a white family. He is a man who was gifted enough to attend schools that most POC and white wouldn't be able to attend. He is a man who is lucky enough to be upper middle class unlike most of us. He is a character who the fandom seems to think have been shoved down their throats with his man pain and drama. 

Can the inhumanity, pain and danger of racism still be seen in this imperfect person?  Does the person have to be likable/perfect for people to understand how painful it must be for this Black person to experience and witness his humanity being debated, question and legalized ALL the time.

For people to believe him when he say he is exhausted emotionally from seeing violence be done to people like him and have media/society prosecute those people in death because they were not the perfect Black person. And imagine them using his anxiety, his "I know better than everyone else" attitude, his break-downs, his drug addicted  bio-parents, all the little things wrong with him to justified his life being taken, like those things warranted a violent death.  Because like all human beings they might have made some mistakes, done some things that were wrong and those things are used to justified them being kill like they were insects. 

The writers are challenging and revealing who are temporary and conditional allies and people who really sees and truly understand that racism is painful, exhausting and dangerous for all Black people, because it takes away the humanity of all Black people, no matter whether they're good, bad, rich or poor.

As for the "tone" of Randall's statement, I think if people were able to truly understand where Randall was coming from, like they do Kate, and listen to him, without preconceived notions or ideas about how he should feel, we wouldn't be talking about his tone.  

[PRgal]

I can see how Randall can be the “perfect” character for the racism topic - his upbringing/narrative doesn’t “fit” what is typically taught - lower income and privileged. I can sort of relate to that too - though I’m not an adoptee and my parents are of the same ethnic background, I’m also not the child of immigrants who don’t/barely speak English and worked menial jobs.  I was once criticized (by a fellow CBC (Canadian born Chinese)) who told me that I should get my head out of the “upper middle class, private school girl bubble.”  She said she had unlearn herself, once she went to university.  She said that it’s taking me “way too long.”  

[Ohmo]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jack and Rebecca were still loving involved parents, but yeah they dropped the ball on this issue.

I don't see it as dropping the ball.  I see it as not knowing the scope of what the ball was.  From my own recollection of growing up in the '70s and '80s, as a white kid, race was not everyday conversation.  It was higher-level, very academic-oriented, often in high school or college.  That's why the visit from Randall's teacher rang true to me.  He was talking about race on a very academic level (I recall mention of poetry), which fit with the time period. I think that's why Jack was intimidated by the teacher---the teacher was literally light years above Jack in terms of grasping that concept. The scope was beyond Jack because he was not an academic kind of guy, and that's one of the reasons he ran from it.  The concept of race was in the abstract clouds for Jack, and Rebecca, too.  Randall was more academic than either of them. I agree that Jack and Rebecca would have done better now. Discussions about race seem to be more concrete (about everyday events) than they were when the Big 3 were growing up.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Ohmo

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I'm seeing a lot of comments about how Randall was the wrong character for this racism issue...to me that underscore the fact that Randall was the perfect subject for this issue.

It is easy to have empathy for a young innocent child. It is easy to sympathize with a character you already like. It might be easier to see the point view of a character you don't consider to have privileged. When it comes to racism and a lot of other issues these factors bring in the temporary allies

But Randall is not any off those things. He is a man, whose personality might make him unlikeable. He is a man, raised and love by a white family. He is a man who was gifted enough to attend schools that most POC and white wouldn't be able to attend. He is a man who is lucky enough to be upper middle class unlike most of us. He is a character who the fandom seems to think have been shoved down their throats with his man pain and drama. 

Can the inhumanity, pain and danger of racism still be seen in this imperfect person?  Does the person have to be likable/perfect for people to understand how painful it must be for this Black person to experience and witness his humanity being debated, question and legalized ALL the time.

So much this. Thank you for saying it more adequately than I have said it. I can identify with Randall in a lot of ways (being black and educationally/socio economically privileged is one way- although I grew up in a black family), I identify more with him being the "responsible one", just like I can identify with Kevin being the "normal" one. I am glad they chose Randall to identify with these issues, especially around his anxiety and mental health as IMO the black community has a long way to go in dealing with mental health struggles, especially because many of us who can afford therapy and resources have so much shame because we were taught to "just deal" we dont take care of ourselves.

Randall is allowed to be flawed, and yet 100% valid in his feelings around these issues.

[Trillian]

40 minutes ago, After7Only said:

Grief is not entertaining.  Depression is not entertaining,   Alcoholism is not entertaining.  Dementia is not entertaining.

I hear you, and I don’t disagree. But TIU is not “about” these heavy issues. If it were, it would be a different show.  I don’t mind shows about heavy issues: The Affair was about the heavy topic of Infidelity and I enjoyed that. It’s just not what I want from This is Us. I’m hoping the focus of the show doesn’t change going forward

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

So often, what the Kates in this conversation are looking for is reassurance that they're not bad people, and IMO Randall simply does not have the emotional bandwidth to do all that when he's dealing with the reality that he is one cop's bad mood away from becoming a hashtag, and that this shit is not new to us and not going anywhere (see: Walter Wallace Jr. literally this week). It takes a physical and psychological toll to see people who look like you murdered by state agents who then face no consequences for those murders (I still have not watched the Floyd video and don't think I ever will), and I think he just didn't have the bandwidth to reassure well-meaning white people that they're OK when he is not okay. I really liked that Kate appeared to be doing her best to hear Randall and didn't get defensive - as others have said, I think she has grown.

Well then I'll get defensive for her. Are you saying Kate is a bad person?   Or just that Randall saying, "Thank you for being sorry, Kate, I know you're a good person who cares, and I love you," is too exhausting for him?  People go to funerals and tell the grieving widow they are sorry and she usually has the bandwidth to say thank you.  Kate simply is not responsible for any of this and yet some people seem to think she should be, at least partially, blamed for it.  Kate is not "white people" she is Randall's sister and if he can't bring himself  to reassure her a little because of the color of her skin, then he's the one who needs to sit and think about it a while.

Is law abiding Randall really  that close to being shot by police?  Is he planning on resisting arrest?   If the toll of watching people who look like him get shot is too much for him he might feel better if he went to Youtube and searched on "white people shot by police."  So far this year 721 people were shot by police, 142 were black. That percentage may be high compared to population percentage but it doesn't change the fact that quite a few white people were shot by police and they could all  sit with their children and watch videos of white people being shot all day long if they chose to.

You know who's in most danger of being shot by police?  Mentally ill people. They are 16 times more likely than anyone else.  My son has schizophrenia so he is probably far more likely to be shot by police than anyone you know, but I'm not living in fear of it.  He's been pulled over by police many times and and even  a few times while just walking, but he knows to comply with everything they say.

I may be a privileged white person, but I too am exhausted by all this, I just think it's more complicated than just race and also has to do with gun culture, crime culture, lack of mental health facilities, and poverty. 

 I would love to see Randall have a real conversation with his daughters (and his daughter's boyfriend) about this that was less about how unfair life is and more about how to act if the police pull you over.

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I can see how Randall can be the “perfect” character for the racism topic - his upbringing/narrative doesn’t “fit” what is typically taught - lower income and privileged. I can sort of relate to that too - though I’m not an adoptee and my parents are of the same ethnic background, I’m also not the child of immigrants who don’t/barely speak English and worked menial jobs.  I was once criticized (by a fellow CBC (Canadian born Chinese)) who told me that I should get my head out of the “upper middle class, private school girl bubble.”  She said she had unlearn herself, once she went to university.  She said that it’s taking me “way too long.”  

Yes I can understand where you are coming from. There is such a narrative in North America that people of certain ethnic groups are always xyz and if you arent that, well then these experiences dont apply to you- thats really not the case.

[Ohmo]

20 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

But Randall is not any off those things. He is a man, whose personality might make him unlikeable. He is a man, raised and love by a white family. He is a man who was gifted enough to attend schools that most POC and white wouldn't be able to attend. He is a man who is lucky enough to be upper middle class unlike most of us. He is a character who the fandom seems to think have been shoved down their throats with his man pain and drama. 

What Randall also is is a character who has been heavily featured for several years. The show runs the risk of the impact of the message being lessened because of the constant focus on Randall. If it's important for the story to be from an adult perspective, have Beth tell it. She also had some opportunities with dance that other children of color probably wouldn't have had, and it would be new to explore race from a female perspective. Plus, I don't believe the entire fandom likes Beth. Some do. I do, but others don't.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Ohmo

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, After7Only said:

 It's likely that wasn't the first time Rebecca's mother had said/done something racially insensitive.   

It wasn't the first time her mother did something racist; if I remember right, they made that clear in the episode. I think Randall said that he didn't like going over to his grandmother's house because she always left him out of pictures, or something (I forget, that episode was a long time ago). And when Rebecca let her mom have it and called her racist, she pointed out a bunch of racist things that her mother had done going back to her own childhood, and specifically mentioned things she'd done to/about Randall.

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Well then I'll get defensive for her. Are you saying Kate is a bad person?   Or just that Randall saying, "Thank you for being sorry, Kate, I know you're a good person who cares, and I love you," is too exhausting for him?  People go to funerals and tell the grieving widow they are sorry and she usually has the bandwidth to say thank you.  Kate simply is not responsible for any of this and yet some people seem to think she should be, at least partially, blamed for it.  Kate is not "white people" she is Randall's sister and if he can't bring himself  to reassure her a little because of the color of her skin, then he's the one who needs to sit and think about it a while.

Is law abiding Randall really  that close to being shot by police?  Is he planning on resisting arrest?   If the toll of watching people who look like him get shot is too much for him he might feel better if he went to Youtube and searched on "white people shot by police."  So far this year 721 people were shot by police, 142 were black. That percentage may be high compared to population percentage but it doesn't change the fact that quite a few white people were shot by police and they could all  sit with their children and watch videos of white people being shot all day long if they chose to.

You know who's in most danger of being shot by police?  Mentally ill people. They are 16 times more likely than anyone else.  My son has schizophrenia so he is probably far more likely to be shot by police than anyone you know, but I'm not living in fear of it.  He's been pulled over by police many times and and even  a few times while just walking, but he knows to comply with everything they say.

I may be a privileged white person, but I too am exhausted by all this, I just think it's more complicated than just race and also has to do with gun culture, crime culture, lack of mental health facilities, and poverty. 

 I would love to see Randall have a real conversation with his daughters (and his daughter's boyfriend) about this that was less about how unfair life is and more about how to act if the police pull you over.

I did not say word one about Kate being a bad person. In fact, I said she showed growth and that I "really liked" the way she conducted herself in that moment. Randall did say he knew Kate cared and he loved her, but he also said himself that he was exhausted, and I think it's reasonable for him to feel that way. He didn't say Kate was responsible for anything, nor did he blame Kate for police brutality, and neither did I. 

(Re: grief, I am grieving my father right now. I lost him less than two months ago (not to COVID). And grief is exhausting too. I am so grateful for all the kindnesses that people have showed me, especially since they're mostly from afar since we can't gather together. I have expressed gratitude to every single person, written thank-you notes, all that. I am also emotionally wrung out and really, really sad, and I am an introvert so sometimes I need to step back and be alone for a bit to recharge. They're not mutually exclusive. I thought Randall made that clear - he loves his family but he's emotionally wrung out. And the event that caused him to be wrung out isn't their fault, just like my father's death wasn't anyone's fault, but both events are draining.)

Randall is law-abiding. So are many people who are killed or shot by the police. He's not less at risk because he obeys the law. I saw a video of a Black case manager at a group home literally lying on the ground with his hands in the air, clearly identifying himself as a case manager at a group home (he was on a walk with someone who lived in the home and someone called the cops). Cop shot him anyway. (He lived.) He asked the cop why the cop shot him; the cop said he didn't know. (No consequences for the cop.)

Re: your son being "more likely to be shot by police than anyone I know," you don't know who I know; that's an unfair assumption to make. Also, your son and other mentally ill people being shot by police, just like white people being shot by police, is a problem with policing. "Cops kill white people too" is a confusing argument. That's fucked up! I don't want that! I certainly don't want your son to be shot.

If you, a "privileged white person," are "exhausted by all this," why shouldn't Randall be?

[marceline]

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I found it refreshing that Randall had this conversation with Kate because so many Black people, myself included, had these conversations with white people in our lives after George Floyd's murder and Randall used the same word I did - it is exhausting. So often, what the Kates in this conversation are looking for is reassurance that they're not bad people, and IMO Randall simply does not have the emotional bandwidth to do all that when he's dealing with the reality that he is one cop's bad mood away from becoming a hashtag, and that this shit is not new to us and not going anywhere (see: Walter Wallace Jr. literally this week). It takes a physical and psychological toll to see people who look like you murdered by state agents who then face no consequences for those murders (I still have not watched the Floyd video and don't think I ever will), and I think he just didn't have the bandwidth to reassure well-meaning white people that they're OK when he is not okay. I really liked that Kate appeared to be doing her best to hear Randall and didn't get defensive - as others have said, I think she has grown.

Yes, it is exhausting.

It's interesting to watch this discussion because it's clear to me that lot of us are personally identifying with these characters. Randall was representing so many of us. We're Black, exhausted, and just don't have the bandwidth, especially when we are also living with a virus that disproportionately kills Black and brown people. OTOH, it's obvious to me from my social media that a lot of people identify with Kate in that scene. They want to do the right thing. They want to help yet they feel attacked by Randall's "tone" and his unwillingness (or inability) to offer the absolution that a lot of them don't even realize they are asking for. Kate wanted to be assured that she was one of the "good ones" and that's on top of the baggage of being his sister in a family where everyone is just so extra. I saw no villains in that conversation. Just two people with competing emotional needs.

What I hope the show addresses in the future is that Randall isn't just processing this as a Black man raised by white parents. He's also a Black father of three daughters who could each turn into the next Sandra Bland or Breonna Taylor if the wrong cop crosses their path.