S05.E10: Sorry... Not Sorry

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I agree that marrying well is similar to being born with privilege.  The money is not anything you've really struggled and persevered to build.  You are pretty much the beneficiary of someone else's wealth the same way Candace is the beneficiary of her mother's wealth.

I DO however, think that Karen has and had her own money.  She said she sold a staffing company that she ran and so I think that would have put money on the bank and it shows that she at least has worked to build something separate from Ray. 

As for Monique....to me, there isn't anything there.  When Gizelle confronted her about how she was only in the group or on the show because of her husband, Monique retorted with "you don't know what I've done" but couldn't point to any independent venture or work besides her history as a rapper no one knew. In her first season she said that she doesn't work because she is "wifey" so I don't know that there is much she has independently accomplished, which is part of the reason why I think Monique is so desperate for this failing podcast and website to become an empire.  

It's like she wants to be the former Kimora Lee Simmons and make her own Baby Phat but even Kimora had a very successful modeling career before she married Russell.

Actually, without Big Chris Monique has the least as far as accomplishments.

Candiass and Ashley are beauty pageant title holders with college degrees. Candiass did intern for Obama back in the day.

Robyn and Gizelle have college degrees.

Dr. Wendy has four degrees and is a professor at Johns Hopkins (for now).

Karen hustled as a single mom for years ( I don't think her son is Ray's) and sold a successful business.

After marrying well...what has Monique done? I actually really don't care but it seems to bother her.

[emmawoodhouse]

Maybe part of why she's lashing out comes from feeling less than? 

[Marley]

I don’t agree with ppl fighting but besides all that what makes me laugh is Gizelle trying to say her and Jamal have an image to protect. Jamal fucks and impregnates his church members but ok Gizelle has an image to protect lmao.

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, Marley said:

I don’t agree with ppl fighting but besides all that what makes me laugh is Gizelle trying to say her and Jamal have an image to protect. Jamal fucks and impregnates his church members but ok Gizelle has an image to protect lmao.

Gizelle is holding on to a dream world where Jamal is a highly regarded member of the community. He has plenty of money, never cheated with a million baby mamas, and her dad/kids are just thrilled they are coming back together.

Thank God, Monique's stupidity is taking all the heat this season because Gizelle's bubble can be burst with a five second Google search.

Jamal makes Juan and Michael look like gold.

 

[RealReality]

3 minutes ago, Marley said:

I don’t agree with ppl fighting but besides all that what makes me laugh is Gizelle trying to say her and Jamal have an image to protect. Jamal fucks and impregnates his church members but ok Gizelle has an image to protect lmao.

Gizelle is busy snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  And she was so close...in the words of Robyn....she almost had me.

The part where she said she didn't want to be a meme or an internet search with "[insert name] wig snatching fight" was understandable and acceptable.  You're about to have a tense and potentially contentious meeting with a girl who just physically attacked someone because she was upset with their words.  You can make the argument that you cannot know that such a person will feel "provoked" by your words and come at you too, since you're about ready to tell her how you think she ain't shit.

Had she just left it at that, it would have been fine.  Maybe understood by all to be a little shady and extra, but it would have been fine.

But she just had to push it by insisting that she had to protect Jamal's reputation and honor.  Girl, no, just no.  If he has so many baby mommas and additional children out there that you cannot even speak on it, he does not have a reputation to protect, I don't care what job he has.  Just stop with that.  

[RealReality]

*****************************************************************************************

So there is a really interesting ET interview with Robyn that was uploaded to YT a day ago.

Its about 11 minutes and I think its worth the time, if not only to look at Robyn who is absolutely stunning at 40.  STUNNING.

A few nuggets

1. Karen ALSO had security at the meeting, but they were in the background.  So apparently Gizelle wasn't alone in thinking Monique could pop off again.  

2. It sounds like Monique never rejoins the group for the rest of the season

3. Robyn suggests that there is no way Monique can move forward with the group until she and Candace have a sit down and they have no had a sit down yet.  I can't think this is good for Monique's prospects for next season

4. Robyn doesn't think that Candace did anything particularly egregious to warrant the physical attack from Monique. 

[drivethroo]

There's a definite Haves vs Have Nots division in the cast, with the Haves being the girls who grew up in more affluent backgrounds and the Have Nots being the girls who grew up in more modest backgrounds. 

The only person I would have a question mark on would be Wendy. Her family may have been affluent immigrants but she wouldn't have grown up in the same way Gizelle & em grew up.  Ironically the Have Nots now have more money than the Haves.

The GEB type women (not just the women on the show but in life) look down on Monique as "less than," because Monique carries herself and thinks of herself as less than.   Even her first tagline was something about being rough around the edges.  She doesn't like these type women because they look down on her but she wants to be like them. So it probably irks Monique somebody like Candiace, who is an exhausting brat, will always be accepted by the GEB type women than Monique, because Candiace grew up in that world.

17 minutes ago, RealReality said:

2. It sounds like Monique never rejoins the group for the rest of the season

Well, 4 of the cast members didn't want to film with her because her adrenaline was still pumping a week after the fight, she showed no remorse and she still wanted to open up another can of whup-ass on Candiace.  It wouldn't have been safe to bring those 2 together.

17 minutes ago, RealReality said:

3. Robyn suggests that there is no way Monique can move forward with the group until she and Candace have a sit down and they have no had a sit down yet.  I can't think this is good for Monique's prospects for next season

If Monique is true to herself, she will leave.  If I beat your ass and I'm not sorry about it and the group comes to me and says "either you apologize to So N So or you can't sit with us" then I guess I'll be sitting somewhere else.  Why would Monique apologize to Candiace so she can sit at the lunch table with at least 3 people who've said she's a dangerous animal and poor representative of black women they don't want to be around? (Although I think Robyn would be open to filming with Monique again).

17 minutes ago, RealReality said:

4. Robyn doesn't think that Candace did anything particularly egregious to warrant the physical attack from Monique.

Candiace didn't, and the episodes we've been shown thus far have shown Candiace apologizing and walking away while Monique keeps turning it up.  Candiace does needs to roll back her mouth.  As Gizelle said, people will pinch Candiace and she will come back at them with a billy club.  Sometimes you say things you can never take back. If I were Ashley and got called a bedwench and a roach, I wouldn't want to talk to Candiace anymore either.

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by drivethroo

[RealReality]

@drivethoo - Candace has clearly said some awful things, but I never, in my life, understood what the cockroach comment even meant.  Cockroaches are gross, but so are a million other things in life.   Its obviously an insult, I just don't think it lands because I don't know what she is trying to say.  It would be like someone calling me a spider, spiders are gross, but whats the insult?

Anyways, it seems like Candace has been trying to improve this season.  And improvement isn't a straight line, she will probably say some more awful shit in the future, but I think its good that he has recognized a problem and has tried to improve.  

Putting aside social media comments and the show.....her tendency to go nuclear is going to fuck up her marriage.  Chris seems like a nice, patient guy, but there are only so many times you can dress a man down the way Candace did to Chris when he didn't want to hold her purse and have him stick around.   

Edited October 6, 2020 by RealReality

[LaurelleJ]

Disclaimer: Monique was 100% Wong for physically attacking Candiace.

I have a real problem with 1, Gizelle saying she has an image to protect and 2, them discussing that Monique is a bad role model for her daughter. I think that they should shy away from those types of statements, especially since they need to reflect on their own actions. Monique made a bad mistake, as people do, but that doesn't make someone a bad person. Parents aren't perfect, and they teach their children that even when you make bad decisions, you need to accept, apologize, and move forward better and stronger. This should be the lesson that Monique passes on to her daughter. IMO a good role model is not one who pretends to be perfect, but one who learns from their mistakes. 

You could easily say the same for everyone else. Gizelle has teenage daughters. Is it embarrassing for them to go to school and go out and have their friends (and maybe their parents) watching the show and seeing that their dad chasing women around before, during, and after their marriage, and that they have several half siblings? Is it embarrassing for them to know that their dad is a cheater, but their mom still wants to get back with him? Is Gizelle a bad role model for showing her daughters that its ok to take back a man who cheats on you and humiliates you? Is Jamal a bad role model for being a man of the church but not living by the words that he preaches? Is Juan a bad role model for his boys because he cheated on their mom? Is Robyn a bad role model for her boys because she allowed Juan to come back and accepted this behavior? Is Wendy a bad role model for her daughter because she is on national television calling another black woman a bitch? That's another conversation for another day, because I don't believe black women should be fighting each other, and I also don't believe they should be calling each other bitches in a negative way. 

Monique should not be out in these streets fighting. Her children will one day see this footage, and she should be able to tell them how she made a mistake, learned from it, and made sure she continued better judgment moving forward. Don't make blanket statements about someone's parenting unless you are perfect. None of them are perfect. 

[ErikaAlyson]

Really good episode. I liked that there was no fillers lol. Not sure why Karen wants to be neutral,but I guess she really considers Monique as her friend like she said. I loved Karen's dress and hairstyle. I thought she looked very pretty. Gizelle is obviously still mad at Monique about the Sherman thing. I don't blame her,who wouldn't be. She was not letting Mo off lol. Robyn could see through the fakeness lol. Ashley looked like she was trying not to laugh during their sitdown. I can't believe she can't get Sheila to watch Dean. I agree that she's using her baby boy so the other women wont try to argue with her as much haha. Gizelle's bodyguard looked annoyed and like he didn't want to be there LOL. It seemed like Monique got more upset when Gizelle walked out. I actually felt sorry for her when she started breaking down. For someone so professional Wendy sure used a lot of finger pointing when she was talking to/at Monique. Gizelle and Robyn probably already had their minds made up about Monique already. I liked how G told Robyn she would call her later when she was leaving. Robyn and Ashley looked very cute in the sitdown imo.

[ErikaAlyson]

Robyn said something so real,something about Monique shouldn't try to get other's approval at someone else's expense. So true. Poor Candiace was really a friend to Monique.

[MaggieG]

So will the reunion be the first time Candiace and Monique see each other since this happened? Because they haven't seen each other right? Should be an interesting reunion.

[RealReality]

@LaurelleJ -- thank you for the thought provoking post (get it, provoking?).  You're right,  no one is perfect, though I think there is a line between a fuck up and one that could land you in jail and someone else in the hospital.  I think the problem is that Monique doesn't see there is a problem...like at all.  To me, this not only means that she is modelling the behavior, but she is likely to teach her children that behavior.  Which is not only physical violence, but to deflect, lie and make excuses when you've done something wrong.  

7 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

So will the reunion be the first time Candiace and Monique see each other since this happened? Because they haven't seen each other right? Should be an interesting reunion.

are they going to do it in person or over zoom?

[MaggieG]

7 minutes ago, RealReality said:

 are they going to do it in person or over zoom?

Not sure if they've made those plans yet, they were able to do RHONY in person and BH was over Zoom.

[Neurochick]

12 hours ago, RealReality said:

I DO however, think that Karen has and had her own money.  She said she sold a staffing company that she ran and so I think that would have put money on the bank and it shows that she at least has worked to build something separate from Ray. 

I meant that Karen might not have been born with privilege.  I'm sure Karen worked to build something for herself, she's no dummy (well, except for her liking  Monique).

I didn't even hear what Gizelle said to her daughters, because I really don't pay much attention to what Gizelle says.  I love her bad fashion sense.  Gizelle might be haughty but she's never physically attacked anyone.  

Edited October 6, 2020 by Neurochick

[drivethroo]

1 hour ago, LaurelleJ said:

Monique made a bad mistake, as people do, but that doesn't make someone a bad person.

The fight doesn't make Monique a bad person. Even her not feeling remorseful for having beat Candiace up doesn't make her a bad person.  All of her actions AFTER the fight are what makes her a bad person.  Even if Ashley is the one who initially ran to the blogs with the fight, Monique has been continuing the smear campaign for a year now, mocking the fight with her sad rap song, interviewing with anyone and everyone to smear Candiace.  It needs to stop.

1 hour ago, LaurelleJ said:

s it embarrassing for them to go to school and go out and have their friends (and maybe their parents) watching the show and seeing that their dad chasing women around before, during, and after their marriage, and that they have several half siblings?

The girls didn't need the show to put it all out there, it was all out there before the show was even a thought.  That's not even on Gizelle, that's on Jamal.

57 minutes ago, ErikaOnline said:

I can't believe she can't get Sheila to watch Dean.

No way would Michael allow Sheila to watch Dean.  Would you?

56 minutes ago, ErikaOnline said:

Robyn said something so real,something about Monique shouldn't try to get other's approval at someone else's expense.

And that's what Monique did to Candiace, tried to get Gizelle's approval at Candiace's expense.  Makes me wonder who Monique tossed Charrisse to the side for.

19 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think the problem is that Monique doesn't see there is a problem...like at all.  To me, this not only means that she is modelling the behavior, but she is likely to teach her children that behavior.  Which is not only physical violence, but to deflect, lie and make excuses when you've done something wrong.  

What's worse is Chris is humoring, if not encouraging Monique's attitude so the cycle will continue.

[LaurelleJ]

38 minutes ago, RealReality said:

@LaurelleJ -- thank you for the thought provoking post (get it, provoking?).  You're right,  no one is perfect, though I think there is a line between a fuck up and one that could land you in jail and someone else in the hospital.  I think the problem is that Monique doesn't see there is a problem...like at all.  To me, this not only means that she is modelling the behavior, but she is likely to teach her children that behavior.  Which is not only physical violence, but to deflect, lie and make excuses when you've done something wrong.  

 

17 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

The fight doesn't make Monique a bad person. Even her not feeling remorseful for having beat Candiace up doesn't make her a bad person.  All of her actions AFTER the fight are what makes her a bad person.  Even if Ashley is the one who initially ran to the blogs with the fight, Monique has been continuing the smear campaign for a year now, mocking the fight with her sad rap song, interviewing with anyone and everyone to smear Candiace.  It needs to stop.

This is the most concerning part of the aftermath. It takes some people longer to learn a lesson than others. My hope is that she eventually comes around and stops this media madness and just say I apologize, I was wrong, I have learned, I'm ready to move on. Full stop, no buts... no although... just that's it. 

Having to relive the season a year later does not help, and they have to keep up with the series as we watch. Housewives have said all the time that having to rewatch and relive the moments that they worked through can be hard. One of the housewives, I forget which one, said that had the season aired sooner, it would have been better, but with the delay, it gave more time to continue these social media shenanigans, which made things harder. 

It seems like castmates like Robyn and Wendy are softening on their hard stance to not film with Monique, now saying that the group can only move forward once Monique and Candiace speak. Monique has said that she doesn't want to speak to Candiace until the reunion face to face. She also said that she will not be in 3 upcoming episodes, the ones where they went to Portugal. The mid season trailer showed one scene from her, but the end of Sunday's episode showed her in another scene, so she's at least going to be in more scenes than initially thought. 

[Jel]

 People.com:

"When asked whether she attempted to apologize to Dillard, Samuels said she tried to reach out days after the fight, but legal teams had become involved.

"The same day that I finally started feeling the remorse, I sent a text message to one of the producers asking if we could arrange a sit-down with us and our husbands, and minutes later I got the email from her attorney," Samuels explained. "So I had to lawyer up because she lawyered up, and at that moment, she turned it legal. I could not speak to her directly anymore.""

---

Wasn't it a week later, at Karen's, that she said she didn't feel remorse yet? I'm confused by her timeline. I'm blown away by her raw honesty, again, with the "that same day I finally started feeling the remorse". Surely, saying "finally" here could not help her cause in any way -- but she says it anyway.  I'm depressed by the idea that expressing remorse, and sincerely apologizing to someone is considered a weakness, in any capacity.

Full article:

https://people.com/tv/rhops-monique-samuels-says-she-did-attempt-to-reach-out-to-candiace-dillard-after-fight/

Edited October 6, 2020 by Jel

[drivethroo]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

"The same day that I finally started feeling the remorse, I sent a text message to one of the producers asking if we could arrange a sit-down with us and our husbands, and minutes later I got the email from her attorney," Samuels explained. "So I had to lawyer up because she lawyered up, and at that moment, she turned it legal. I could not speak to her directly anymore.""

I'm thinking she started feeling "remorse" when Candiace's lawyer came a'calling.  She probably sent a text asking Candiace to call the lawyers off and Candiace was like "naw."

1 hour ago, LaurelleJ said:

It seems like castmates like Robyn and Wendy are softening on their hard stance to not film with Monique, now saying that the group can only move forward once Monique and Candiace speak.

Gizelle has a problem with Monique the person.  There's nothing Monique can do or say to change Gizelle's mind on her (just like there's nothing Candiace can do or say that will change Monique's mind on her).

Robyn & Wendy have problems with Monique's actions, not necessarily Monique the person.  So if Monique can address her actions and put forth a course of action so it doesn't happen again, I don't think Robyn or Wendy would have a problem filming with her again. After all, Robyn & Monique had a DSW store appearance together a day or two after the fight and everything went smoothly and professionally.

 

[Keywestclubkid]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

Wasn't it a week later, at Karen's, that she said she didn't feel remorse yet? I'm confused by her timeline. I'm blown away by her raw honesty, again, with the "that same day I finally started feeling the remorse". Surely, saying "finally" here could not help her cause in any way -- but she says it anyway.  I'm depressed by the idea that expressing remorse, and sincerely apologizing to someone is considered a weakness, in any capacity.

Full article:

https://people.com/tv/rhops-monique-samuels-says-she-did-attempt-to-reach-out-to-candiace-dillard-after-fight/

 

Her story keeps changing .. I have no memory (roll footage of her having complete recall)  I feel bad (roll footage of her saying she doesn't feel bad at all) I am sorry (tell people that they shouldn't antagonize) She needs to put on her big girl panties and get real.. Cool if you don't feel bad but don't lie esp when you are on camera in those lies .. just say I don't care and move on stop trying to make yourself the victim in this when you clearly arnt

Edited October 6, 2020 by Keywestclubkid

[Neurochick]

47 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

Robyn & Wendy have problems with Monique's actions, not necessarily Monique the person.  So if Monique can address her actions and put forth a course of action so it doesn't happen again, I don't think Robyn or Wendy would have a problem filming with her again. After all, Robyn & Monique had a DSW store appearance together a day or two after the fight and everything went smoothly and professionally.

Can the two really be separated?  I mean if someone is violent toward another person and we're talking about Monique, a grown woman with means, not some poor "hood" type who doesn't know how to express herself but through violence, can you even trust them?  What happens if an argument gets heated?  Will they "finish" you off?  

That DSW appearance together between Robyn and Monique doesn't mean a thing, it was probably scheduled weeks in advance and both of them were probably contractually obligated to show up.  

[Primal Slayer]

 

3 hours ago, MaggieG said:

So will the reunion be the first time Candiace and Monique see each other since this happened? Because they haven't seen each other right? Should be an interesting reunion.

They saw each other at the cast photo shoot but as far as speaking to one another? Reunion will be the first time.

Ive seen some of the wives say that Candiace and Monique cant come back from this situation as far as any type of relationship. Im just like....they do know (esp Gizelle) of Porsha/Kenya, Sheree/Kim, Kim/Nene...it's a bad situation but it isnt anything that horrible that fences cant be mended. I doubt they will since how Candiace spews off on twitter and Monique could care less for her but im sure the two can get back to a space of interacting with one another.

[sATL]

Look how many hands are in Candice's head... are we sure that it was only Monique that got a tug?

Just saying if anyone else wanted a little piece of the action..whomever' hand that is with the ring/nails definitely touched her hair..

Edited October 6, 2020 by sATL

[Keywestclubkid]

8 minutes ago, sATL said:

Look how many hands are in Candice's head... are we sure that it was only Monqiue that got a tug?

Look at all the hands trying to pry Monique's away .....

[Neurochick]

Most of those hands were trying to pry Monique's hands off Candiace's head.  How many times did they have to say "LET HER GO" before Monique finally "came out of her blackout?"

[LaurelleJ]

A few more things about the episode.

Robyn remarked that it was not white wine on Monique's face, it was red. Thought it was white. From the replay, it looks white. If it is tue that it is white wine, then maybe it wasn't only Mo who had to think about the details of what happened a week later. Has to be strange for the cast to watch the footage back and see what they remembered vs. what happened.

Gizelle's speech to take down Monique was again something that could be applied to others. She says that Monique has a history of making these violent statements, that she threatened to drag Candiace, and then she did. I think moving forward if anyone ever had the slightest desire to get physical, they wouldn't out of concern of coming across as a hypocrite. however Robyn has made several of the same types of statements. Calling for security while arguing with Katie, running into Ashley's restaurant and putting her fingers in her face, getting in Monique's face during umbrella gate, saying she would have beat Ashley down if the cameras weren't there. If Gizelle points at Monique and says well history has said that it would get to this point, then she has to do the same with her BFF Robyn. This is not the Real Hypocrites of Potomac. 

Physical violence is wrong. In (rightfully) questioning the person who did it, do not put yourself in the position to be called out. 

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, drivethroo said:

I'm thinking she started feeling "remorse" when Candiace's lawyer came a'calling.  She probably sent a text asking Candiace to call the lawyers off and Candiace was like "naw."

Gizelle has a problem with Monique the person.  There's nothing Monique can do or say to change Gizelle's mind on her (just like there's nothing Candiace can do or say that will change Monique's mind on her).

Robyn & Wendy have problems with Monique's actions, not necessarily Monique the person.  So if Monique can address her actions and put forth a course of action so it doesn't happen again, I don't think Robyn or Wendy would have a problem filming with her again. After all, Robyn & Monique had a DSW store appearance together a day or two after the fight and everything went smoothly and professionally.

 

But, I think the question, at least for me would be that if she doesn't think she did anything wrong will people speak as freely around Monique as they do everyone else on the cast who hasn't reacted violently?  

If the women cannot all speak freely then it kinda puts a damper on the show or me.  I can't remember if i watched Atlanta long enough to see if K and P got into it again hardcore, but Kenya is healthy and athletic so in a true mono e mono I bet she could hold her own.  

So far she has gone off on Candace, who was an easy victim, but she came awful close to getting physical with Robyn.  Gizelle has pointed out, perhaps selfishly, but correctly that Monique has often threatened violence.  So has Robyn, but Robyn has never followed through.  Monique has.  So is something escalating and who is next? 

Physically everyone is stronger, so maybe she only continues to go after Candace since she appears to be getting applauded for it by her fans.  But Im extremely uncomfortable watching this show seeing the smallest and weakest cast member being constantly physically attacked for just doing her job which is to talk shit and get into conflicts.  

Also, I think its disingenuous to put any part of umbrella gate on Robyn, who simply refused to walk away from Monique's violent threats.  And she isn't required to, IMO.  Monique threatened to drag her and Robyn only said "do it, do it" and laughed in her face.  Monique was the one who got violent in that situation too, the ONLY difference being that Robyn is strong, athletic and well liked.  Monique was the only one being violent and Robyn would have wiped the floor with her so she wasn't as easy a victim as Candace.  But umbrellagate was not a mutual and equal situation, it was Monique, AGAIN, being physical.  And so, I suppose that it could be seen as part of a pattern of escalation.  

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by RealReality

[LaurelleJ]

8 minutes ago, RealReality said:

But, I think the question, at least for me would be that if she doesn't think she did anything wrong will people speak as freely around Monique as they do everyone else on the cast who hasn't reacted violently?  

If the women cannot all speak freely then it kinda puts a damper on the show or me.  I can't remember if i watched Atlanta long enough to see if K and P got into it again hardcore, but Kenya is healthy and athletic so in a true mono e mono I bet she could hold her own.  

So far she has gone off on Candace, who was an easy victim, but she came awful close to getting physical with Robyn.  Gizelle has pointed out, perhaps selfishly, but correctly that Monique has often threatened violence.  So has Robyn, but Robyn has never followed through.  Monique has.  So is something escalating and who is next? 

Physically everyone is stronger, so maybe she only continues to go after Candace since she appears to be getting applauded for it by her fans.  But Im extremely uncomfortable watching this show seeing the smallest and weakest cast member being constantly physically attacked for just doing her job which is to talk shit and get into conflicts.  

Also, I think its disingenuous to put any part of umbrella gate on Robyn, who simply refused to walk away from Monique's violent threats.  And she isn't required to, IMO.  Monique threatened to drag her and Robyn only said "do it, do it" and laughed in her face.  Monique was the one who got violent in that situation too, the ONLY difference being that Robyn is strong, athletic and well liked.  Monique was the only one being violent and Robyn would have wiped the floor with her so she wasn't as easy a victim as Candace.  But umbrellagate was not a mutual and equal situation, it was Monique, AGAIN, being physical.  And so, I suppose that it could be seen as part of a pattern of escalation.  

 

I agree with most of your post. The point is the interaction and engagement, and if they can't speak freely without concern for violence, it affects the show in a big way.  I also don't like seeing the smallest person an easy target for attack just because they are the smallest. I could say the same for Ashley too. 

With umbrella gate, I respectfully disagree and share my opinion of what happened. IIRC Monique invited Robyn to get in her face and say something, and Robyn sauntered up to Monique smiling and getting in her face. I thought that was unnecessary and made the argument worse.  Thankfully nothing happened. I still think about when Monique said no so you can sue me and have all your dreams come true??

[bosawks]

When Gizelle showed up with security and then Ashley showed up with Baby Dean was I the only one disappointed when Monique didn’t show up with T’Challa?

[RealReality]

1 minute ago, bosawks said:

When Gizelle showed up with security and then Ashley showed up with Baby Dean was I the only one disappointed when Monique didn’t show up with T’Challa?

Ha ha, I know they couldn't do it, but I love whenever I get some T'Challa commentary.

T'Challa is the only thing I'll miss about Monique, but she clearly needs that emotional support bird more than I do so goodbye to them both!

[drivethroo]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Can the two really be separated?  I mean if someone is violent toward another person and we're talking about Monique, a grown woman with means, not some poor "hood" type who doesn't know how to express herself but through violence, can you even trust them?  What happens if an argument gets heated?  Will they "finish" you off?  

Depends on the person, the circumstances and the relationship they have with the offender.  Candiace and Gizelle have always thought Monique was a ghetto hoodrat, so they can't separate Monique's actions from Monique because they think she's just doing what hoodrats do.

Wendy just met this lady so she doesn't know who or what Monique is all about.  She just knows this lady has been coming after her friend Candiace and then violently attacked her. She doesn't know if this is how this woman operates on a regular basis or what. She has no relationship with Monique.  So Wendy would need some assurances from Monique that this is not how she normally behaves and she will do what she can to not have a moment like that again.  Wendy needs that reassurance to feel safe around Monique.

I think Robyn's problem is Monique running to social media right after the fight but playing blackout victim.   I don't think Robyn is worried about her own personal safety around Monique but I don't think she wants to be around someone who viciously attacks another person, then plays the victim about it.

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

That DSW appearance together between Robyn and Monique doesn't mean a thing, it was probably scheduled weeks in advance and both of them were probably contractually obligated to show up

But that also goes to show Robyn doesn't physically fear being around Monique; otherwise she would've not shown up citing the fight.

 

4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Ive seen some of the wives say that Candiace and Monique cant come back from this situation as far as any type of relationship. Im just like....they do know (esp Gizelle) of Porsha/Kenya, Sheree/Kim, Kim/Nene...it's a bad situation but it isnt anything that horrible that fences cant be mended.

Monique doesn't even really know why she attacked Candiace like that.  Without that knowledge and acceptance, there's no way she and Candiace can move forward.

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

But, I think the question, at least for me would be that if she doesn't think she did anything wrong will people speak as freely around Monique as they do everyone else on the cast who hasn't reacted violently

They can't, because the prevailing thought although violence is wrong, Monique is justified to beat your ass if you say the wrong thing to her.  So I don't understand why people bring up Robyn going down to Ashley's restaurant because the new groove is beating somebody's ass is justified if they keep popping off and provoking you and Ashley had been popping off and provoking Robyn for 3 seasons straight for no reason.

59 minutes ago, LaurelleJ said:

With umbrella gate, I respectfully disagree and share my opinion of what happened. IIRC Monique invited Robyn to get in her face and say something, and Robyn sauntered up to Monique smiling and getting in her face.

In the words of Monique, ask and you shall receive.

 

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, drivethroo said:

But that also goes to show Robyn doesn't physically fear being around Monique; otherwise she would've not shown up citing the fight.

Actually what it shows is that Robyn will always honor a contract.  It was probably a paid appearance, in a public place, with security.  Not like Robyn was going to meet Monique in a dark alley or something.

The problem with the fight is always the same for me.  When Monique said it was in the heat of the moment....okay.  BUT afterward, when she had been separated from Candiace and THEN she ran out and still wanted to fight?  No.  That's what people do who don't have self control or the verbal skills to deal with the situation.  Then when Andy Cohen questioned Monique about it, she said she heard Candiace say, "You're fired!"  Monique felt, "well since I'm fired I might as well come out there and finish her off."  That's what Monique said.  That's not a balanced person IMO.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Neurochick

[Sheenieb]

KB, Gizelle's "security," is probably an usher at her church who just wanted to make some extra money since the holidays were approaching. I hope he at least got a croissant before he left with Gizelle.

That discussion was silly. I would've liked it better if the ladies were like, look, what you did was fucked up and we're concerned about being around you because we don't know how you'll react if you think that one of us is being out of pocket. But Wendy was out here acting as if the spirit of Coretta Scott King was in her. Like she lived through the Civil Rights era and all her life she had to fight. It just came across so sanctimonious and fake.

That said, I don't buy Monique's "blacking out" excuse, either. However, let's say it was legit, to not be remorseful is disturbing. You know what, I'll let it slide that she felt nothing in the aftermath, but considering it's almost a whole-ass year later and she's STILL like, yeah, I beat her ass,

is what's bugging me.

I thought Karen came across the best, actually. She acknowledged that Monique was wrong, but she also said that she doesn't abandon her friends when they fuck up.

[Legalbeagle421]

1 hour ago, Sheenieb said:

KB, Gizelle's "security," is probably an usher at her church who just wanted to make some extra money since the holidays were approaching. I hope he at least got a croissant before he left with Gizelle.

That discussion was silly. I would've liked it better if the ladies were like, look, what you did was fucked up and we're concerned about being around you because we don't know how you'll react if you think that one of us is being out of pocket. But Wendy was out here acting as if the spirit of Coretta Scott King was in her. Like she lived through the Civil Rights era and all her life she had to fight. It just came across so sanctimonious and fake.

That said, I don't buy Monique's "blacking out" excuse, either. However, let's say it was legit, to not be remorseful is disturbing. You know what, I'll let it slide that she felt nothing in the aftermath, but considering it's almost a whole-ass year later and she's STILL like, yeah, I beat her ass,

is what's bugging me.

I thought Karen came across the best, actually. She acknowledged that Monique was wrong, but she also said that she doesn't abandon her friends when they fuck up.

You win the Internet today. This whole post is hilarious. I agree with everything you said except Karen. I could understand wanting to stand by your friend. But Karen seemed to be going extra hard to defend Monique and it didn't sit right with me. 

[shoetingstar]

I haven't seen anyone mention this, if someone has, I apologize: Has anyone thought Monique may be suffering from Post-partum Depression?  I have found Chris to be incredibly unsupportive and entitled to her for sex. NOT saying this makes any of her actions okay. Just that she needs to speak to therapist after she talks to her pastor!

This is the best RH franchise right now. So it pains me to say this - but I'm already SO over this fight. I need that red or white wine Robyn and Monique were discussing. Gizelle and Wendy really worked my last nerve and then found some I didn't know existed. No, Gizelle, Monique was after Candace, she not just beating asses willy nilly. No Wendy, we do not think ya'll represent all black women and if someone does, they are a lost cause already anyway. We have seen all the Ladies pop-off at folks verbally: so stop acting like miss Prim and Proper 2020. Y'all children watching that too. Verbal abuse is not okay, either. Now THAT would be something I wish the black community would discuss.

Monique: WHY not tell the audience what you really were mad about? i.e. You thought Candiace was spreading rumors that your child was not by your husband? I'm disappointed that Monique doesn't see anything wrong with her actions. 

Candiace: I don't condone fighting. However, she really likes to provoke and has said such nasty things. The problem is she found someone unhinged enough to pull her card this time. I can't quite figure her deal out.

The frustrating thing is that these two grown ass women - and no one talked to the other one about their issues? But you were so close as friends? You just snipe at each other from the sidelines? The hell is wrong with them? There's a huge gap or whole in all of this. 

Out of all of them, Robin I was the most impressive - I didn't agree with everything but she stated her points calmly and clearly with out all the theatrics and without making it about herself as Wendy and Gizelle did. Bravo, Robin!

2 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

KB, Gizelle's "security," is probably an usher at her church who just wanted to make some extra money since the holidays were approaching. I hope he at least got a croissant before he left with Gizelle.

That discussion was silly. I would've liked it better if the ladies were like, look, what you did was fucked up and we're concerned about being around you because we don't know how you'll react if you think that one of us is being out of pocket. But Wendy was out here acting as if the spirit of Coretta Scott King was in her. Like she lived through the Civil Rights era and all her life she had to fight. It just came across so sanctimonious and fake.

That said, I don't buy Monique's "blacking out" excuse, either. However, let's say it was legit, to not be remorseful is disturbing. You know what, I'll let it slide that she felt nothing in the aftermath, but considering it's almost a whole-ass year later and she's STILL like, yeah, I beat her ass,

is what's bugging me.

I thought Karen came across the best, actually. She acknowledged that Monique was wrong, but she also said that she doesn't abandon her friends when they fuck up.

As a former Junior Usherboard member of St. John Baptist Church, I take strong offense to this! ahahaha Let me find some security before we discuss further. hmmph.... Plus Gizelle ain't paying nobody but her Fashion and Wig Stylist (!!?!!!!), maybe production footing the bill. LOL.

 

 

[charliesan]

12 hours ago, LaurelleJ said:

It seems like castmates like Robyn and Wendy are softening on their hard stance to not film with Monique, now saying that the group can only move forward once Monique and Candiace speak

I honestly think they're just saying it because we're still half way through the season and they don't want to make it all the way clear that Monique will be fired, I even think Candiace has been relatively quiet in regards to this (I mean as far as interviews and blogs) because she was promised she won't have to deal with Monique later. 

Physical confrontations have not been reason enough to fire someone but having the rest of the cast not film with you is, unless you are the undisputed star of the show like Teresa from Jersey, and Monique is nowhere near that level, even though she's fighting to be (wink wink). 

Wendy has no reason to film with Monique because she doesn't even know her and even though Robyn has been coming into her own this season, I doubt Gizelle will let that happen. That only leaves Karen and Ashley, not enough to even make Monique a friend of the housewives. By the way, is it me or was Karen too forgiving of Monique? I mean, I understand not dropping your friends like that but she seemed a little too accomodating to Monique like "OMG Monique, so you blacked-out, my dear friend, friend I know you will rise above this because you, my friend, are an amazing woman and we will ride this out together, as friends". 

Someone mentioned Andy questioning Monique just like he was questioning Dorinda, like he was baiting them into apologizing in a bid for their job, and both failed miserably. 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by charliesan

[drivethroo]

2 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

Monique: WHY not tell the audience what you really were mad about? i.e. You thought Candiace was spreading rumors that your child was not by your husband? I'm disappointed that Monique doesn't see anything wrong with her actions.

Except now Monique is now saying that's NOT why she beat Candiace's ass but she'll let us know why at the reunion.

 

2 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

The frustrating thing is that these two grown ass women - and no one talked to the other one about their issues?

You can't have that discussion when Monique herself doesn't know why she's mad at Candiace.

 

1 hour ago, charliesan said:

Physical confrontations have not been reason enough to fire someone but having the rest of the cast not film with you is, unless you are the undisputed star of the show like Teresa from Jersey, and Monique is nowhere near that level, even though she's fighting to be (wink wink). 

It's being said on some forums that the winery operator threatened to call the police because the fight was endangering the other patrons of the winery (winery said glass was flying and affecting the other patrons) and property was being destroyed (something about some doors and plates?).  BRAVO/producers may not care about physical fights but they do care if they can't get insurance or permission to film at places because the cast is going beserk, destroying property and endangering other people not part of the show.

2 hours ago, charliesan said:

Someone mentioned Andy questioning Monique just like he was questioning Dorinda, like he was baiting them into apologizing in a bid for their job, and both failed miserably. 

All Monique had to say is she's watching the footage and can't believe she did all of that, she was frustrated at Candiace and took it out on her in a very inappropriate way, she's been talking to someone about her anger, she understands where the other women are coming from etc.

But Monique sat there, still had no remorse and acted like she was still pumped full of adrenaline (a full year later) and ready to go for round 3.  That's what's going to get her fired, not the actual fight.

 

[luckyroll3]

11 hours ago, bosawks said:

When Gizelle showed up with security and then Ashley showed up with Baby Dean was I the only one disappointed when Monique didn’t show up with T’Challa?

If T'Challa was there, those women would have been terrified that Monique brought her attack bird to take out the rest of the them before she sent him on a kill mission to finish Candiace off. 

And Karen, certainly would not have let T'Challa up in her house!

 

[Legalbeagle421]

8 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

I haven't seen anyone mention this, if someone has, I apologize: Has anyone thought Monique may be suffering from Post-partum Depression?  I have found Chris to be incredibly unsupportive and entitled to her for sex. NOT saying this makes any of her actions okay. Just that she needs to speak to therapist after she talks to her pastor!

Something I've found veryyyyy interesting and somewhat telling is that Big Chris keeps saying over and over again, "I'm embarrassed. I really like Chris and Candiace." Your wife got in a whole fight with this woman but you're still lamenting about your friendship with her and her husband. Hmmm, interesting 🤔. 

[TexasGal]

18 hours ago, bosawks said:

When Gizelle showed up with security and then Ashley showed up with Baby Dean was I the only one disappointed when Monique didn’t show up with T’Challa?

Baby Dean watching Monique and Karen talk with his serious old man baby face was cracking me up.

15 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

KB, Gizelle's "security," is probably an usher at her church who just wanted to make some extra money since the holidays were approaching. I hope he at least got a croissant before he left with Gizelle.

I hope someone ate some of those pastries.  Those looked really good.  Of course, I've been craving a donut for a week so I may have been skewed pro-pastry.

[Neurochick]

15 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

I thought Karen came across the best, actually. She acknowledged that Monique was wrong, but she also said that she doesn't abandon her friends when they fuck up.

There's fuck up and there's try to beat another woman up.  I think that's beyond fucked up.  

[Rlb8031]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 10:54 PM, pasdetrois said:

Gizelle and Karen tried to grab all the camera time. They are as disingenuous as Monique. Karen, quit trying to be saintly den mother. Looks like Ray is gonna put Karen in her place. And how does anyone know Karen gave Ray "half of all her money" unless Karen threw Ray under the bus and spilled the beans? I think the two of them are locked in a bitter money battle so they can divorce.

Ashley's waiting to see how she can leverage this situation for herself.

I'd like to see Candiace and Monique gone. Both have had violent moments. Actually Gizelle can go too. Actually, they all depress me a little bit.

My guess is that when the IRS came after Ray, they grabbed all his (and his and Karen's jointly held) funds. But Karen's HW and LaDame money was probably hers alone (and in separate accounts). So she's either counting her money that was taken out of any joint accounts, or she affirmatively gave her HW and LaDame money to pay off his debt.

[qtpye]

Not particularly illuminating but some interesting tidbits about how they conduct the talking heads.

[Sheenieb]

Quote

There's fuck up and there's try to beat another woman up.  I think that's beyond fucked up.  

For Karen, it isn't beyond. Guess it depends on where fighting lands on your fucked up list. I'm not crazy about anyone getting physical unless it's justified, either. And by justified, I mean, you or your loved one is being attacked. If Monique were my friend, I don't think I would've dropped her for it, but we would've definitely talked about how out of control her behavior was. 

[ladle]

Monique was 100% wrong in this situation. The fact that she doesn’t appear remorseful is frightening. 
 

But Gizelle complaining that she and Jamal have “an image to protect.” Umm....

[RealReality]

21 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

 

I thought Karen came across the best, actually. She acknowledged that Monique was wrong, but she also said that she doesn't abandon her friends when they fuck up.

I like Karen, but I think she ended up looking like a naive sucker for buying that blackout defense and for believing that Monique was open to learning anything when she smirked and made that comment at the end.  

I think Karen has good intentions, but they are wasted on Monique.

21 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Actually what it shows is that Robyn will always honor a contract.  It was probably a paid appearance, in a public place, with security.  Not like Robyn was going to meet Monique in a dark alley or something.

The problem with the fight is always the same for me.  When Monique said it was in the heat of the moment....okay.  BUT afterward, when she had been separated from Candiace and THEN she ran out and still wanted to fight?  No.  That's what people do who don't have self control or the verbal skills to deal with the situation.  Then when Andy Cohen questioned Monique about it, she said she heard Candiace say, "You're fired!"  Monique felt, "well since I'm fired I might as well come out there and finish her off."  That's what Monique said.  That's not a balanced person IMO.

I agree with all this and will add

1. A DSW shoe appearance is not the same as filming for the show in that you can just show up to DSW, look at some shoes and take some pictures.  However, filming the season requires getting into contentious situations, shading, be annoying and extra, plotting, and getting into drama.  That is their job, so just because Robyn figured that Monique could handle a DSW shoe appearance doesn't mean she feels that she won't get violent again while filming.  

2. I also think its a problem for Monique to react this way in the heat of the moment.   I truly think that Gizelle wearing that Uncle Ben shirt was way more provocative than anything Candace has said.  You shouldn't be on this show if you're the type of woman who resorts to violence when provoked because you'll always be provoked - because thats the reason why Bravo is paying you a six figure income.  

[RealReality]

9 hours ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

Something I've found veryyyyy interesting and somewhat telling is that Big Chris keeps saying over and over again, "I'm embarrassed. I really like Chris and Candiace." Your wife got in a whole fight with this woman but you're still lamenting about your friendship with her and her husband. Hmmm, interesting 🤔. 

It actually made me wonder how many other friendships they have lost because of Monique's rage. 

A poster above said that Gigi had gone to Monique about the inappropriate behavior with the trainer and she blew her off.  Then Gigi had her husband go to Chris S. about it.  Then Monique completely cut Gigi off.  So, it's possible they were all friends and now Chris S. cannot be friends with them anymore.  

5 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

My guess is that when the IRS came after Ray, they grabbed all his (and his and Karen's jointly held) funds. But Karen's HW and LaDame money was probably hers alone (and in separate accounts). So she's either counting her money that was taken out of any joint accounts, or she affirmatively gave her HW and LaDame money to pay off his debt.

Technically, I think that anything Karen has earned after the marriage would be community property, even if its held in a separate account.  I'm surprised that the company was in Ray's name at all for them to come after him for the company back taxes. 

[After7Only]

On 10/6/2020 at 4:23 PM, LaurelleJ said:

 

Gizelle's speech to take down Monique was again something that could be applied to others. She says that Monique has a history of making these violent statements, that she threatened to drag Candiace, and then she did. I think moving forward if anyone ever had the slightest desire to get physical, they wouldn't out of concern of coming across as a hypocrite. however Robyn has made several of the same types of statements. Calling for security while arguing with Katie, running into Ashley's restaurant and putting her fingers in her face, getting in Monique's face during umbrella gate, saying she would have beat Ashley down if the cameras weren't there. If Gizelle points at Monique and says well history has said that it would get to this point, then she has to do the same with her BFF Robyn. This is not the Real Hypocrites of Potomac. 

 

I was thinking the same.  The could pull footage of all of them threatening to hit each other or getting aggressive with/charging each other.  Robyn even said in the episode that she’s wanted to pop Candiace in the mouth before.   Monique is dead wrong, but the majority of them have been 5 seconds and maybe a show producer/security from being in the same position as Monique.     

[Iguessnot]

On 10/6/2020 at 5:23 PM, LaurelleJ said:

A few more things about the episode.

Robyn remarked that it was not white wine on Monique's face, it was red. Thought it was white. From the replay, it looks white. If it is tue that it is white wine, then maybe it wasn't only Mo who had to think about the details of what happened a week later. Has to be strange for the cast to watch the footage back and see what they remembered vs. what happened.

Gizelle's speech to take down Monique was again something that could be applied to others. She says that Monique has a history of making these violent statements, that she threatened to drag Candiace, and then she did. I think moving forward if anyone ever had the slightest desire to get physical, they wouldn't out of concern of coming across as a hypocrite. however Robyn has made several of the same types of statements. Calling for security while arguing with Katie, running into Ashley's restaurant and putting her fingers in her face, getting in Monique's face during umbrella gate, saying she would have beat Ashley down if the cameras weren't there. If Gizelle points at Monique and says well history has said that it would get to this point, then she has to do the same with her BFF Robyn. This is not the Real Hypocrites of Potomac. 

Physical violence is wrong. In (rightfully) questioning the person who did it, do not put yourself in the position to be called out. 

I watched it again in glorious slow motion. It was white wine. And here is more in the chain of events. Monique is flipping Candiass' hair. Gizelle pushes Monique then you see Candiass' leopard arm pull Monique's vest. Monique starts pushing and grabs Candiass' hair. That's when Candiass tosses the white wine in Monique's face. Monique has one hand full of weave and the other hand is smacking. Candiass is still holding the intact glass and starts swinging. The first swings appears to hit Monique in the face as she jumps back at bit. The second swing misses Monique, but when her arm comes up, we see the glass is broken. With a broken glass in her hand, Candiass managed to make 3 more swings. The first one was blocked by arms but the second one is in the zone of Monique's face, and the third swing was aimed even better plus Candiass managed to combine a lunge with the swing. We don't see where these last two blows hit because a crew member is blocking our view of Monique's face. The dudes finally get the broken glass under control. Monique goes into Terminator mode continuously repeating "Get off of me". Others are imploring Monique to let go. Closed captioning displays "I'm bleeding" and we can clearly see the blood in Monique's mouth.

They are all lucky that something tragic didn't occur from this foolishness

Edited October 8, 2020 by Iguessnot

[RealReality]

4 hours ago, After7Only said:

I was thinking the same.  The could pull footage of all of them threatening to hit each other or getting aggressive with/charging each other.  Robyn even said in the episode that she’s wanted to pop Candiace in the mouth before.   Monique is dead wrong, but the majority of them have been 5 seconds and maybe a show producer/security from being in the same position as Monique.     

Thats not the same as actually hitting someone., to me.  

There are quite a few people I'd like to kick in the nuts.  George Zimmerman comes to mind.  There are quire a few people I'd like to smack in the face.  Casey Anthony comes to mind.  

I'd dare to say that most human adults have a person that they would like to kick in the nuts or smack in the face.  But, we all can and should accept it as puffery and talk.  However, when someone DOES cross that line into physical violence than I think its not unreasonable to retrospectively look back and think that those statements that you thought were puffery and talk were really something entirely different.