S05.E09: The Tipping Point

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, NowVoyager said:

I. Cannot. Believe. This is the hill Monique chooses to die on.

I don't believe for a second Ashley was relieved Monique v. Candiace took the attention away from Michael's latest public dalliance. I think Ashley is more likely pissed they knocked her off the pedestal for top storyline of the season. The way Ashley is soo... calm; she's mercenary. 

 

I disagree. I think she gets the best of both worlds with this. Obviously her relationship with Michael is still a plot line on the show, so the spotlight isn't on her entirely but she's not the focus of everyone fighting, etc. I think with the new baby and everything, she is probably happy about that. Plus, for the most part, this story makes her look pretty sympathetic, since she's not having to defend a husband who is a predator - instead, she's the one keeping her wayward husband on a leash. 

[Sweet-tea]

I wonder if Chris and Monique watched this episode together and what their discussion was like after the show. Probably not good! 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[sATL]

4 hours ago, RealReality said:

I thought Chris S. was already inducted into the Hall of Fame a season or two ago?  Maybe it was something else?

 

No. He is not in the Hall of Fame - YET.  (roster of current HOF)

He is on the ballot for 2021, one of 130 players.   Final voting is in January, due to COVID messed with the schedule/event ; the next round of cuts is due to be held in November.  (  nominees for 2021 )  . only 15 will go in the HOF, and let's bet Payton Manning will be one of them. So that leaves 1 of 14 "spots" for Chris.

Chris played offensive tackle (OT) - but an example of who played defense in the same position that people might have heard of is Mean Joe Greene (Steelers). Still looking for an OT HOF player that everyone will know..

He does have other honors. And yes, it is a honor to be nominated to be on the ballot.

So yes - regarding Monique scrapping with Candice, could be an image "no-no" for him. Lets hope its forgotten (or not cared about) by the time they vote. 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by sATL

[laprin]

14 hours ago, Jel said:

I would 100% choose Monique as a friend over Candiace because I think Candiace has a shady side, which I don't like in friends.  

 

Then you should avoid Monique at all costs. This is the same woman who dropped her friend to climb position by hitching her wagon to Ashley last season using the “there are good people on both sides” argument. This season she decides to be fake with Gizelle for the sake of peace, but could not do it for Candiace. Proof that status matters to Monique. 

[TV Diva Queen]

Jamal's body language in the booth when they were having dessert was all I needed to see.  He was sitting kinda with his back to Giselle, just a little bit, but enough to see that he's ready to walk away at any given moment

[Legalbeagle421]

Monique is out here making excuses in her Instagram stories. She is nuts. 

[loveaux]

1 hour ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

Monique is out here making excuses in her Instagram stories. She is nuts. 

I was just about to come in and say the same thing. Monique is doing the most on her IG Stories at the moment. I would screenshot but they’re all videos.

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think Gizelle is very colorist and can not believe that Monique has all the wonderful things in life that are usually reserved for women with Gizelle's phenotype.

Question.  What has Gizelle done on the show, that is colorist?  

 

Quote

How is Gizelle a colorist? I used to think RHOA was full of it lol. Because not every black person is only chocolate or dark brown. African Americans come in some pretty shades. There are light skin people in the black race. It's never going to change,especially with all of these black men being with other races. There's going to be a lot of mixed people walking around

I still want to know what has Gizelle done on the show that is colorist?  Some have said it's because of the way she treated Monique, but how do you know 100% that it's because of her color?  

Edited September 29, 2020 by Neurochick

[Sheenieb]

18 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I still want to know what has Gizelle done on the show that is colorist?  Some have said it's because of the way she treated Monique, but how do you know 100% that it's because of her color?  

Yeah, I don't know if Gizelle is colorist, either. I missed last season, so I don't know if she said some shit that was colorist and maybe that's where it's coming from? I didn't think Gizelle's rudeness to Monique was colorist. I always thought it was garden-variety snobbery. Gizelle rarely misses an opportunity to flex her Big Sister Gorgeous One role, which is obnoxious, but not colorist. I'll need some receipts for this colorist claim as well. 

[OdinO.]

11 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

See, that's a red flag to me, and I didn't blame Karen for being hurt by it. If my husband said that he "thinks" he's in love with me, and he had no plans to fix that, I'd be looking up divorce attorneys on Yelp. He was "in love" with Karen 20 years ago when she had nothing professional going on. Now that she's gaining some independence, he turns cold. Not telling her that he loves her and then saying this shit. And of course, Karen has to do the work of bridging the gap between them. Stop auditioning, Karen. Ray is gone.

MVP of the episode goes to Gizelle's daddy. I don't know any parent with sense who would be OK with their child going back into a messy relationship. The only thing Jamal did right was give Gizelle her girls. I don't care for Gizelle, but her daughters are lovely.

Milani is such a gorgeous child. However, I cringed along with her when Monique was brushing her hair dry. I was like, please put some conditioner in that baby's hair before you take a brush to it.

I wrote last week that I was disappointed in Monique, but this shit right here is next-level disappointment. I read the comments beforehand, so I braced myself, but goddamn, it was worse watching it. Candiace did nothing to provoke having her hair in a vise grip. The way Mo was going at her, you'd think Candiace went after one of Mo's kids. It was embarrassing, but beyond embarrassing, it was so unnecessary.  Monique was looking for an excuse to get at Candiace, so she used the schoolyard taunting to get physical.

It's bad enough she went there, but to take a page out of the Dorinda Medley playbook and say

Is beyond poor taste.

Perhaps I'm being too generous, but I'd like to think that Monique knows she fucked up, but to save face, she's keeping this going. Which is still shameful because she should be an adult and admit that she was out of line.

I do agree with this, though. Unfortunately, as Black folk, we get judged collectively instead of individually. As a Black woman, none of these ladies represent me, so I didn't feel embarrassment in terms of, "look at the Black women acting the fool." I've been watching these Housewives shows too long, so they're all embarrassing. I wouldn't want to be around any of them, really.

I can honestly say I am not "in love" with my husband anymore. It is a much deeper love than that hormonal endorphin" in love" feeling. It's a silly question for a long married couple. 

White people get judged by other white people's behavior also. Even by the actions of white people who lived hundreds of years ago.

Edited September 29, 2020 by OdinO.

[BloggerAloud]

I know some people are like "Candiace is annoying so she was asking for it" but if being annoying, loud, with a slick mouth was a thing that justified physical violence, Ashley Darby would be dead several times over.

[Crazydoxielady]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 12:07 PM, Boofish said:

Why is everyone acting like women who marry well should be grateful for him .. his ass getting something out the deal as well. What happened with Candiace aside - Chris got a beautiful wife, 3 gorgeous kids. Monique is no slouch; everyone saying Chris can do better, hell so

 

I disagree. Monique is now a slouch. She is violent, and shows zero remorse. She also felt free to talk about the fight in front of her young daughter the next morning, thereby passing on violence is ok.  Chris can and will do better. Perhaps she will see how bad her behavior was and is when her contract is not renewed. When the relationship ends due to her violent behavior and inability to have any insight or accountability for it, time will tell if she takes those "four homes" with her .  I'm sure Chris's mom has her eyebrow raised in triumph. She did warn him.

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 12:33 PM, Boofish said:

This seems to most apply to black women who marry well.

Not every thing is about race. With all due respect. Perhaps your are personalizing this? Do you, you married well as you said above. Celebrate that. But as 1/2 of an interracial couple(my own), I am not quite sure how white or black marrying well has anything to do with this situation.  As a viewer of almost every franchise of Real Housewives there are examples across the franchise of white women marrying well and losing mightily when the marriage goes south. 

[Crazydoxielady]

22 hours ago, RealReality said:

Its not "emotional" when you plot your way out of the backroom of a winery you've never been to so you can further attack someone you've been physically separated from.  That's not emotional...that's chilling. 

Exactly! Bone chilling. She is a sociopath of sorts really. No remorse. I'm in shock people on this forum are stating they want her back. I am not here for housewives beating on each other, and if it becomes that, sad to say, I will be out.

[MaggieG]

All week long I thought the "Monique, let her go!!" was yelled by Robyn, but it was actually a cute, male producer lol.

I'm a fan of Monique, so this was tough to watch. I thought she was better than that. It's very disappointing to see that she isn't sorry at all, even now.

I died at Mr Graves on the hot mic. He had Jamal's number from the beginning. 

[Neurochick]

41 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

All week long I thought the "Monique, let her go!!" was yelled by Robyn, but it was actually a cute, male producer lol.

I'm a fan of Monique, so this was tough to watch. I thought she was better than that. It's very disappointing to see that she isn't sorry at all, even now.

I died at Mr Graves on the hot mic. He had Jamal's number from the beginning. 

Just watched it again.  It was more than one male producer yelling "Monique let her go!"  And they yelled it about 6 or 7 times.  Even Karen was trying to pull her away.

Then they put Monique in one room.  Karen tried to get into the room to check on her, but the producer wouldn't let Karen in.  Candiace was still yelling and Monique ran down the stairs to get outside.  Producers put Candiace into an SUV and then Monique came running out of the barn to get at Candiace again.  About three male producers grabbed Monique to hold her back, they let her go only when Candiace had left.  Monique went back into the barn and said to Karen, "better not bring her around me, or I'm killing her."  Robyn and Gizelle heard that and Robyn said, "Oh, she's killing her."  

And Monique still doesn't think she did anything wrong?

The woman has more than a few screws loose.  

[LaurelleJ]

4 hours ago, loveaux said:

I was just about to come in and say the same thing. Monique is doing the most on her IG Stories at the moment. I would screenshot but they’re all videos.

Some of the videos are on twitter now, not Monique's twitter. I can't recall the name but it's under the #rhop hashtag.

46 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

All week long I thought the "Monique, let her go!!" was yelled by Robyn, but it was actually a cute, male producer lol.

I'm a fan of Monique, so this was tough to watch. I thought she was better than that. It's very disappointing to see that she isn't sorry at all, even now.

I died at Mr Graves on the hot mic. He had Jamal's number from the beginning. 

I agree with this whole post with one exception: I thought it was Karen yelling that. I mean, several people yelled it, but the longest and loudest I thought was Karen. 

[MaggieG]

3 minutes ago, LaurelleJ said:

Some of the videos are on twitter now, not Monique's twitter. I can't recall the name but it's under the #rhop hashtag.

I agree with this whole post with one exception: I thought it was Karen yelling that. I mean, several people yelled it, but the longest and loudest I thought was Karen. 

Yeah the one they played in the preview, where it cut to black and all you heard was "Monique, let her goooo!" I could have sworn it was Robyn.  I agree, there were several people yelling at her to let go. It was pretty chaotic.

[RealReality]

7 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

I wonder if Chris and Monique watched this episode together and would their discuss was like after the show. Probably not good! 

Chris S. is probably mortified if this is the first he has seen it.   

I expect Monique spun him tales.  I think she was hoping that the footage would be edited in such a way that she could justify her actions by claiming that Candace physically attacked her first and no one would be able to prove otherwise.  

I think Monique tried to push that narrative by filing charges first and I'd bet Chris S. supported it because Monique likely tried to justify her behavior with him too.  

6 hours ago, laprin said:

Then you should avoid Monique at all costs. This is the same woman who dropped her friend to climb position by hitching her wagon to Ashley last season using the “there are good people on both sides” argument. This season she decides to be fake with Gizelle for the sake of peace, but could not do it for Candiace. Proof that status matters to Monique. 

Exactly.  People insist that Monique is "so real," but they even played tape of Monique talking nice with Candace in private, and shortly before or after dressing her down and being mean to her in front of the other girls.  

It sounds like the person least culpable in spreading rumors about Monique is Candace, but I think Monique strategically chose to target Candace because Candace is small, frail, unable to physically defend herself and is generally disliked.  Do you want to trust that someone like THAT is going to stand by you when the chips are down?  I wouldn't. 

5 hours ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

Monique is out here making excuses in her Instagram stories. She is nuts. 

Of course she is.  JFC.  

2 hours ago, BloggerAloud said:

I know some people are like "Candiace is annoying so she was asking for it" but if being annoying, loud, with a slick mouth was a thing that justified physical violence, Ashley Darby would be dead several times over.

Thank you!  

1 hour ago, Crazydoxielady said:

Exactly! Bone chilling. She is a sociopath of sorts really. No remorse. I'm in shock people on this forum are stating they want her back. I am not here for housewives beating on each other, and if it becomes that, sad to say, I will be out.

No physical violence is okay.  

But continuing to be proud of it, showing a lack of remorse and trying to justify and excuse it nearly a year later are all bad signs.  As is choosing to target someone smaller, weaker and less able to defend themselves.  

I could see why no one would want to film with her, because if you're physically vulnerable you wouldn't have the same freedom to speak and express yourself and you'd have to walk on eggshells around Monique.  And thats not the show I want to watch, where everyone coddles a cast member because they don't want to be physically attacked.  

Put Monique in a reboot of the bad girls club.  

[Boofish]

2 hours ago, Crazydoxielady said:

I disagree. Monique is now a slouch. She is violent, and shows zero remorse. She also felt free to talk about the fight in front of her young daughter the next morning, thereby passing on violence is ok.  Chris can and will do better. Perhaps she will see how bad her behavior was and is when her contract is not renewed. When the relationship ends due to her violent behavior and inability to have any insight or accountability for it, time will tell if she takes those "four homes" with her .  I'm sure Chris's mom has her eyebrow raised in triumph. She did warn him.

Not every thing is about race. With all due respect. Perhaps your are personalizing this? Do you, you married well as you said above. Celebrate that. But as 1/2 of an interracial couple(my own), I am not quite sure how white or black marrying well has anything to do with this situation.  As a viewer of almost every franchise of Real Housewives there are examples across the franchise of white women marrying well and losing mightily when the marriage goes south. 

Just my own observations and opinions based on my life experiences. And my contribution to the overall conversation. YMMV.

[bosawks]

Maybe Monique just “fell asleep” like when she was drinking driving the car, instead of “blacked out”.

The poor woman could just be narcoleptic...

[emmawoodhouse]

11 minutes ago, bosawks said:

Maybe Monique just “fell asleep” like when she was drinking driving the car, instead of “blacked out”.

The poor woman could just be narcoleptic...

One thing has been made clear in all this...Mo and alcohol do not mix. 

[Sheenieb]

5 hours ago, OdinO. said:

I can honestly say I am not "in love" with my husband anymore. It is a much deeper love than that hormonal endorphin" in love" feeling. It's a silly question for a long married couple. 

I don't think that Karen was talking about hormonal, endorphin love, either. It would be silly to ask a longterm, married couple if they're still in the puppy love stage (if that's what you meant). I'm not saying that if you've been married for decades that intimacy should die, but it's understandable if you've moved past the crazy in love part of the relationship since you'll have weathered a lot and your bond is strengthened. To bring it back to Ray and Karen, per Karen, without hesitation, she's still in love with Ray. Considering how much she's been auditioning for his love since the start of the season, the love is clearly still there for her. For Ray to say, "I THINK I'm still in love with her" is hurtful. What does that even mean? You either love someone or you don't. It's one thing to say, my love isn't as passionate as it was before, but I want to get back there again. What do I need to do? That would imply that he cared and wanted to work on his marriage. 

It just sounds to me like Ray wants Karen to shrink herself. I wouldn't be surprised that if Karen decided to give up her business, vanity project it may be, that all of a sudden Ray's "love" would return.  

[qtpye]

27 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

One thing has been made clear in all this...Mo and alcohol do not mix. 

That is the thing that scares me. I do not think she was drunk or even buzzed. She was not slurring her word or acting clumsy.

I think Monique puts ridiculous pressure on herself to be perfect and when someone challenges that she snaps. 

Instead of taking accountability for her bad actions and apologizing, she has decided to double down and claim she is right.

She is banking on past popularity to pull her through and unfortunately appears ready to die on her sword.

 

 

[drivethroo]

7 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I still want to know what has Gizelle done on the show that is colorist?  Some have said it's because of the way she treated Monique, but how do you know 100% that it's because of her color?  

Many RHOP viewers assume because Gizelle is light skinned with the green eyes that she thinks she's better than darker skinned Monique. She and Robyn sit around with their blond hair, light skin and green eyes disliking Monique because she's dark(er).  Even though Candiace (who is darker than Monique) thinks less of Monique as well.  Even though Charrisse, who is on the Monique/Candiace scale of darkness thinks less of Monique as well.  Even Wendy (who is the darkest cast member) is giving Monique the side eye.  Or they say the darker cast members (Wendy, Candiace, Monique) are portrayed poorly, while the lighter cast members (Robyn, Gizelle, Ashley) are portrayed in a good light. Except Ashley is not portrayed in a good light, Robyn is portrayed as a dumb lackey and Gizelle is portrayed as a mean girl.  I've seen this attitude across a variety of forums and that's why I say if we start discussing the RHOP's colorism towards each other, we also need to have a discussion about RHOP viewers slamming the light/biracial cast members to prop up the darker cast members.  The only "colorism" situation I would agree with is Ashley categorizing Wendy coming after her as "aggressive and ferocious" but not Robyn coming after her.

41 minutes ago, Sheenieb said:

For Ray to say, "I THINK I'm still in love with her" is hurtful. What does that even mean?

It means Ray isn't in love with Karen of 2020.  He wants Karen of the 80s/90s back.  The Karen who was fully financially dependent on him.  The Karen who catered to him.  The Karen who was all about him.

This Karen? He don't know this woman.  This woman who has her own money, who is her own person, who isn't catering to his needs and wants 24-7.  He don't know this lady.  It probably hurt his manhood Karen had to use her money to bail him out of his tax woes.  He knows the body she's in and cares for that but he don't know that lady and that's why he can say he "thinks" he's still in love with her.  I would say Ashley should look at Karen if she wants to see her future in 20 years but Ashley won't be around Michael in 5 years (max).

Monique and her little podcast expenses irk me because she wants and thinks she should be at "The Read" level straight out of the box.  Usually most podcasters start off with a room and some equipment, build their subscribers, start getting sponsors and advertising, start doing premium subcriptions and then start doing live shows when they get a measure of how many subscribers they have that would pay for a live show.  Twitter/IG followers and bloggers chasing clout do not equal ticket sales.  That's why she only sold 20 tickets out of 300 and 19 of those 20 were probably her family and friends.

Edited September 29, 2020 by drivethroo

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, drivethroo said:

Many RHOP viewers assume because Gizelle is light skinned with the green eyes that she thinks she's better than darker skinned Monique. She and Robyn sit around with their blond hair, light skin and green eyes disliking Monique because she's dark(er).  Even though Candiace (who is darker than Monique) thinks less of Monique as well.  Even though Charrisse, who is on the Monique/Candiace scale of darkness thinks less of Monique as well.  Even Wendy (who is the darkest cast member) is giving Monique the side eye.  Or they say the darker cast members (Wendy, Candiace, Monique) are portrayed poorly, while the lighter cast members (Robyn, Gizelle, Ashley) are portrayed in a good light.  I've seen this attitude across a variety of forums and that's why I say if we start discussing the RHOP's colorism towards each other, we also need to have a discussion about RHOP viewers slamming the light/biracial cast members to prop up the darker cast members.  The only "colorism" situation I would agree with is Ashley categorizing Wendy coming after her as "aggressive and ferocious" but not Robyn coming after her.

It means Ray isn't in love with Karen of 2020.  He wants Karen of the 80s/90s back.  The Karen who was fully financially dependent on him.  The Karen who catered to him.  The Karen who was all about him.

This Karen? He don't know this woman.  This woman who has her own money, who is her own person, who isn't catering to his needs and wants 24-7.  He don't know this lady.  He knows the body she's in and cares for that but he don't know that lady and that's why he can say he "thinks" he's still in love with her.  I would say Ashley should look at Karen if she wants to see her future in 20 years but Ashley won't be around Michael in 5 years (max).

Monique and her little podcast expenses irk me because she wants and thinks she should be at "The Read" level straight out of the box.  Usually most podcasters start off with a room and some equipment, build their subscribers, start getting sponsors and advertising, start doing premium subcriptions and then start doing live shows when they get a measure of how many subscribers they have that would pay for a live show.  Twitter/IG followers and bloggers chasing clout do not equal ticket sales.  That's why she only sold 20 tickets out of 300 and 19 of those 20 were probably her family and friends.

Perhaps Ray was thinking that if this Karen had met him in the 80's or 90's...she would have never looked twice at him? 

This is an insecurity that he needs to squash because it appears to me that Karen does really care for him.

[Sweet-tea]

46 minutes ago, qtpye said:

That is the thing that scares me. I do not think she was drunk or even buzzed. She was not slurring her word or acting clumsy.

I think Monique puts ridiculous pressure on herself to be perfect and when someone challenges that she snaps. 

Instead of taking accountability for her bad actions and apologizing, she has decided to double down and claim she is right.

She is banking on past popularity to pull her through and unfortunately appears ready to die on her sword.

 

 

You can still be very affected by alcohol and not slurring your words. I’ve been around plenty of drunks who didn’t slur or stumble. 

Her judgment was impaired by the alcohol, which probably contributed to her attacking Candiace. She lost control of herself. 

Same with Candiace. If she was stone cold sober perhaps she wouldn’t have taunted Monique. 

There are many stages of impairment that come before you get really sloppy, such as someone has several drinks and thinks they’re fine to drive. Actually, they aren’t, but their impaired judgment tells them they’re fine. Others are lowered defenses, lack of a filter, reckless behavior, etc. 

If neither of them had been drinking, maybe the fight would never have happened. So many of the altercations on these HW shows are fueled by alcohol. That’s why Bravo keeps the liquor flowing. 

She also said she “blacked out.” It was probably just an excuse but could also mean she doesn’t remember everything that happened due to how much she had to drink. Someone can be in a blackout and others do not even know it. 

Whatever the reason, I thought Ray’s statement was hurtful and cold. I don’t blame Karen for crying. If he wanted to skirt around the “in love” question he could’ve said something like, “I love my wife dearly.” He didn’t. He sounded ambivalent and his body language was detached. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Sheenieb said:

I don't think that Karen was talking about hormonal, endorphin love, either. It would be silly to ask a longterm, married couple if they're still in the puppy love stage (if that's what you meant). I'm not saying that if you've been married for decades that intimacy should die, but it's understandable if you've moved past the crazy in love part of the relationship since you'll have weathered a lot and your bond is strengthened. To bring it back to Ray and Karen, per Karen, without hesitation, she's still in love with Ray. Considering how much she's been auditioning for his love since the start of the season, the love is clearly still there for her. For Ray to say, "I THINK I'm still in love with her" is hurtful. What does that even mean? You either love someone or you don't. It's one thing to say, my love isn't as passionate as it was before, but I want to get back there again. What do I need to do? That would imply that he cared and wanted to work on his marriage. 

It just sounds to me like Ray wants Karen to shrink herself. I wouldn't be surprised that if Karen decided to give up her business, vanity project it may be, that all of a sudden Ray's "love" would return.  

But, I think to some degree, for some men at least, the physicality is a part of being  IN love.  They are working on their relationship, and Ray made it a point to talk about his decreased sex drive and I don't think Karen talked about it once, so they may have different ideas about what being "in love" means.  I don't know.

But, he seems so genuinely happy to be around her.  He could be trying to play chicken with her to get her to stay around more often.  

I know a couple who is sort of going through the same. He is retired for years now, and he wants to hang out, travel, explore the world (prior to the virus) and he wants to do it with his wife.  He LOOOOVES when she is around and it makes him so much happier.  But she is always on the phone or on her tablet or out doing business and so he feels lonely and rejected.  And I've seen it with my own two eyes, she is CONSTANTLY on her tablet or cell phone, she is always joining multiple auxiliary or professional organizations which require more tablet and cell phone time and meetings.   He has planned beautiful trips for them, to amazing destinations, only to have them marred by her being on the phone all the time or on the tablet or complaining about business.  

Maybe its being in two different places mentally, and so it gives me some sympathy for Ray.  

[drivethroo]

9 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

Her judgment was impaired by the alcohol, which probably contributed to her attacking Candiace. She lost control of herself.

But she hasn't been drunk/impaired for the past 366 days straight because she is still justifying why she needed to beat Candiace and still shows no remorse.

12 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

She also said she “blacked out.” It was probably just an excuse but could also mean she doesn’t remember everything that happened due to how much she had to drink. Someone can be in a blackout and others do not even know it. 

She remembered the fight enough to tell Chris about it on the way home in the car and then again the next day in the kitchen.  And she remembered enough about the fight to launch an immediate social media smear campaign on Candiace.

That fight was going to happen with or without alcohol. Because Monique wanted to beat Candiace's ass.

[RealReality]

6 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

You can still be very affected by alcohol and not slurring your words.I’ve been around plenty of drunks who didn’t slur. Her judgment was likely impaired by the alcohol, which probably contributed to her attacking Candiace. She lost control of herself. 

Same with Candiace. If she was stone cold sober perhaps she wouldn’t have taunted Monique. 

There are many stages of impairment that come before you get really sloppy, such as someone has several drinks and thinks they’re fine to drive. Actually, they aren’t, but their impaired judgment tells them they’re fine. 

If neither of them had been drinking, maybe the fight would never have happen. So many of the altercations on these HW shows are fueled by alcohol. That’s why Bravo keeps the liquor flowing. 

I don't think when you calmly tell a producer "I'll find a way around you" and find your way out of the backroom of a winery that you've never been to so you can attack someone again that it signals a loss of control.  To me, thats very strategic.  

Candace said they were all tipsy, and like you said, Bravo always has the liquor flowing.  

Bravo had the liquor flowing when Robyn laughed in Moniques face and told her to "go ahead" and choke her with an umbrella.  But, when it was tall, athletic, Money Mayweather Robyn, Monique managed to retain the control to walk away.  I think Robyn even followed her down the street daring her to do something.  But, with a girl far smaller and with significantly less fan support, suddenly Monique "can't control herself" and "blacks out"

Candace has not changed who she is, and if anything, she is much improved this season.  Her behavior is the same as when she has gotten into it with the women while fully sober.  And so, Monique is going to posit that she cannot handle being around this behavior, but she decided to spend additional time with someone whose personality she can't stand by inviting her on a podcast to antagonize her about not having a honeymoon?  And then got mad when Candace wouldn't go for it?  Candace would have likely responded the same way to being verbally antagonized as she did at the winery. 

[RealReality]

Just now, drivethroo said:

But she hasn't been drunk/impaired for the past 366 days straight because she is still justifying why she needed to beat Candiace and still shows no remorse.

She remembered the fight enough to tell Chris about it on the way home in the car and then again the next day in the kitchen.  And she remembered enough about the fight to launch an immediate social media smear campaign on Candiace.

That fight was going to happen with or without alcohol. Because Monique wanted to beat Candiace's ass.

Yeah, the "blackout" excuse is a common one and is normally followed by a begrudging recitation of exactly what happened.  And she apparently has been able to remember enough about what happened to try to justify and explains her actions.  If she blacked out she shouldn't even remember what or how she was feeling.  I think people trying to support the blackout theory are just really, really stretching.  that excuse is as old as the hills, I cannot tell you how many Dateline and Women Behind Bars stories feature someone who just "blacked out" but can tell you all the details of why they were justified in their actions. 

[sATL]

1 hour ago, drivethroo said:

 

It means Ray isn't in love with Karen of 2020.  He wants Karen of the 80s/90s back.  The Karen who was fully financially dependent on him.  The Karen who catered to him.  The Karen who was all about him.

This Karen? He don't know this woman.  This woman who has her own money, who is her own person, who isn't catering to his needs and wants 24-7.  He don't know this lady.  It probably hurt his manhood Karen had to use her money to bail him out of his tax woes.  He knows the body she's in and cares for that but he don't know that lady and that's why he can say he "thinks" he's still in love with her.  I would say Ashley should look at Karen if she wants to see her future in 20 years but Ashley won't be around Michael in 5 years (max).

 

ITA. There was a comment that Ray made that I think is part of what is setting him off. He realized that the meals Karen used to cook came to the table because she was really cooking for the kids. Kids gone and there went the meals.

Ray wants attention. Ray wants Karen to be his "hobby" - not necessarily for bedroom activities, but to at least be present, as if time didn't march on.

I would thought as a couple, somewhere along the line, Ray/Karen would talked/dream about their lives as an empty nester , sooner than the youngest being in college for a couple of years. Little simple statements like " I am going to retire in x years", " I want to move to xxx", " I want to travel to xxxx and not worry about the school calendar".

Karen probably had an active charity calendar back when, along with the kids. Kids are gone and she replaced that time peddling perfume

Edited September 29, 2020 by sATL

[LaurelleJ]

Ashley took to IG today to ask people to not give Charisse a hard time, that she is good friends with her and good friends with Monique. That the person who is responsible for those horrible rumors is Monique's awful friend. That's nice that she did that, however it's interesting that she was on camera with Gizelle saying that Candiace befriended Charisse for certain reasons. Did she hear that from Charisse? 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, LaurelleJ said:

Ashley took to IG today to ask people to not give Charisse a hard time, that she is good friends with her and good friends with Monique. That the person who is responsible for those horrible rumors is Monique's awful friend. That's nice that she did that, however it's interesting that she was on camera with Gizelle saying that Candiace befriended Charisse for certain reasons. Did she hear that from Charisse? 

I totally forgot that Charisse was even a part of this since I was so focused on Monique's bad behavior.

[Keywestclubkid]

12 hours ago, sATL said:

ITA. There was a comment that Ray made that I think is part of what is setting him off. He realized that the meals Karen used to cook came to the table because she was really cooking for the kids. Kids gone and there went the meals.

Ray wants attention. Ray wants Karen to be his "hobby" - not necessarily for bedroom activities, but to at least be present, as if time didn't march on.

I would thought as a couple, somewhere along the line, Ray/Karen would talked/dream about their lives as an empty nester , sooner than the youngest being in college for a couple of years. Little simple statements like " I am going to retire in x years", " I want to move to xxx", " I want to travel to xxxx and not worry about the school calendar".

Karen probably had an active charity calendar back when, along with the kids. Kids are gone and she replaced that time peddling perfume

Yes to this ... She is acting like its all one sided and ALL Ray... I am sorry but how long have they been married? NO ONE stays in the i love you and tell you every 5 mins phase all the time when you have been married that long ... Karen is trying to "act" for the cameras and it looks like Ray has reached his point on it... why be fake why not be authentic?

[Sweet-tea]

31 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Yes to this ... She is acting like its all one sided and ALL Ray... I am sorry but how long have they been married? NO ONE stays in the i love you and tell you every 5 mins phase all the time when you have been married that long ... Karen is trying to "act" for the cameras and it looks like Ray has reached his point on it... why be fake why not be authentic?

Yes and this isn't really uncommon in marriages. There can be strain in the couple's relationship after the children leave home. I have several friends who actually divorced after many years of marriage after their children went to college. They could no longer really relate as a couple. 

Karen should try to find a way to get closer to Ray and make him feel he's important to her and not just someone on the back burner while she works on her various projects. 

Monique may not have been in a blackout but I still believe alcohol contributed to the fight, which may have stopped short of a physical altercation if they hadn't been drinking. I've seen it happen many times. 

A blogger posted an update showing a picture of Gizelle with her hand on Monique's shoulder. The blogger speculated that Gizelle pushed Monique and Monique thought Candiace had done it, thus prompting Monique to go nuts. I don't really believe this though. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[OdinO.]

14 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

I don't think that Karen was talking about hormonal, endorphin love, either. It would be silly to ask a longterm, married couple if they're still in the puppy love stage (if that's what you meant). I'm not saying that if you've been married for decades that intimacy should die, but it's understandable if you've moved past the crazy in love part of the relationship since you'll have weathered a lot and your bond is strengthened. To bring it back to Ray and Karen, per Karen, without hesitation, she's still in love with Ray. Considering how much she's been auditioning for his love since the start of the season, the love is clearly still there for her. For Ray to say, "I THINK I'm still in love with her" is hurtful. What does that even mean? You either love someone or you don't. It's one thing to say, my love isn't as passionate as it was before, but I want to get back there again. What do I need to do? That would imply that he cared and wanted to work on his marriage. 

It just sounds to me like Ray wants Karen to shrink herself. I wouldn't be surprised that if Karen decided to give up her business, vanity project it may be, that all of a sudden Ray's "love" would return.  

Maybe Ray mean he no longer has sexual desire for her. That doesn't mean they can't stay married and love each other deeply.

[Legalbeagle421]

30 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

A blogger posted an update showing a picture of Gizelle with her hand on Monique's shoulder. The blogger speculated that Gizelle pushed Monique and Monique thought Candiace had done it, thus prompting Monique to go nuts. I don't really believe this though. 

Monique said this on her Instagram stories yesterday. She said she thought Candiace pushed her. I rewatched. Gizelle was pushing Monique back to stop her from continuing to flip Candiace's hair. 

 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Legalbeagle421
Added clip from twitter

[drivethroo]

In the words of last night's debate, Monique did what she did because she is who she is.  You don't fight somebody, then engage in a year long smear campaign on the person you assaulted and act like we're supposed to believe you or accept what you did.  Actions do have consequences.  Candiace learned that by running her mouth to the wrong person and now it's time for Monique to learn it as well.

I know people who have tried to fight others and destroy those people's property in a rage and even though the attack wasn't directed towards me, I don't want to have ANY dealings with them whatsoever because I don't know when they're going to turn up like that on me. So I don't blame the rest of the cast if they don't want to be around Monique or have any dealings with her without accepting responsibility and getting some help to develop the tools for anger management.  To this date, Monique has been busy running to IG, running to Twitter, running to YouTube bloggers trying to justify what she did.

Speaking of IG, Ashley jumped on her IG to defend Charrisse.  I have no doubt Ashley will jump on the GEB ship when push comes to shove, leaving only Karen on Monique's side.

Quote

A blogger posted an update showing a picture of Gizelle with her hand on Monique's shoulder. The blogger speculated that Gizelle pushed Monique and Monique thought Candiace had done it, thus prompting Monique to go nuts. I don't really believe this though. 

The hand that pushed Monique was light complected and had a metallic manicure and lots of rings.  Candiace's hand is obviously darker, had a white manicure and wasn't wearing that many rings.

Edited September 30, 2020 by drivethroo

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, RealReality said:

I don't think when you calmly tell a producer "I'll find a way around you" and find your way out of the backroom of a winery that you've never been to so you can attack someone again that it signals a loss of control.  To me, thats very strategic.  

You'd be surprised what people can do when they're black out drunk and BTW, to most people they look sober.

However I don't think alcohol had anything to do with Monique acting like that, and if it did, she shouldn't drink anymore.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Neurochick

[BloggerAloud]

Quote

Monique said this on her Instagram stories yesterday. She said she thought Candiace pushed her. I rewatched. Gizelle was pushing Monique back to stop her from continuing to flip Candiace's hair. 

That doesn't make a lick of sense since she was starring right at Candiace and there was a whole table between them so for her to think Candiace reached across and pushed her is some bull.

[Neurochick]

1 minute ago, BloggerAloud said:

That doesn't make a lick of sense since she was starring right at Candiace and there was a whole table between them so for her to think Candiace reached across and pushed her is some bull.

The hand that pushed Monique wasn't even pushing her aggressively.  It was trying to say, "step away Monique."

[Jel]

I think Monique is just so doubled and tripled down on this now, and it's the completely wrong thing to do. I suspect she knows she's wrong, too, and that's why she's just so OTT defensive about it. 

What she should do, imo, is stop. She should say something like, "In that moment, I lost control of myself. And it doesn't really matter who threw what when, or who pushed who, the point is, *I* shouldn't have done what I did.  And for that I am sincerely sorry."

I don't know Monique's back story, but I do know that some people are brought up to solve problems physically. If that's Monique's experience, then I understand why she reverts to that mode of behavior because until behavior patterns are examined and consciously changed, old patterns tend to repeat themselves impulsively. So she needs some good therapy to help her change. And that needs to be the absolute last time she puts her hands on anyone in anger.

She also appears to be dealing with some very stifling perfectionism, which creates a ton of control and resentment issues.  

The impression I get is that she thought Candiace was her actual, real life friend, beyond co-workers, they were friends. And Monique's idea of friendship (like mine) means you can expect that your real life, actual friend does not cultivate a new friendship with another woman who is actively spreading very hurtful, humiliating, potentially life-ruining rumors about you. I would interpret that as a betrayal, and then acting like it was just a perfectly normal, no biggie kind of thing for a friend to do, as emotional abuse.  Monique is out of her depth with Candiace, and I hope she keeps her at "friendship lite" level only, no matter what they figure out going forward.

[Neurochick]

I think Candiace saw Monique as an acquaintance, not a real friend.  Monique however saw it differently.   

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

You'd be surprised what people can do when they're black out drunk and BTW, to most people they look sober.

However I don't think alcohol had anything to do with Monique acting like that, and if it did, she shouldn't drink anymore.

or what they do when they CLAIM they are black out drunk.  

After all these years, I almost always believe its an excuse to avoid accountability and responsibility.   

When I'd watch MSNBC Lockup, it never failed.  If someone didn't have a defense of pure innocence it would turn out they had just "blacked out."  But then, oddly, they could give a recitation of events to also place blame on the victim so that it was a "blackout" but also reasonable self defense. 

This is Monique to the T. 

Monique -"I blacked out",

Also Monique - "but here is everything that happened and my reasoning as to why it justified a violent attack"

[FozzyBear]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

or what they do when they CLAIM they are black out drunk.  

After all these years, I almost always believe its an excuse to avoid accountability and responsibility.   

When I'd watch MSNBC Lockup, it never failed.  If someone didn't have a defense of pure innocence it would turn out they had just "blacked out."  But then, oddly, they could give a recitation of events to also place blame on the victim so that it was a "blackout" but also reasonable self defense. 

This is Monique to the T. 

Monique -"I blacked out",

Also Monique - "but here is everything that happened and my reasoning as to why it justified a violent attack"

When Monique was describing it I didn’t think she meant she was blackout drunk, I thought she meant she in a rage blackout.

[Neurochick]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

or what they do when they CLAIM they are black out drunk.  

No, black out drunk is REAL.  I know it's real because it happened to me more than once, it's not bullshit.

But I don't think Monique was even tipsy.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

I think Monique is just so doubled and tripled down on this now, and it's the completely wrong thing to do. I suspect she knows she's wrong, too, and that's why she's just so OTT defensive about it. 

What she should do, imo, is stop. She should say something like, "In that moment, I lost control of myself. And it doesn't really matter who threw what when, or who pushed who, the point is, *I* shouldn't have done what I did.  And for that I am sincerely sorry."

I don't know Monique's back story, but I do know that some people are brought up to solve problems physically. If that's Monique's experience, then I understand why she reverts to that mode of behavior because until behavior patterns are examined and consciously changed, old patterns tend to repeat themselves impulsively. So she needs some good therapy to help her change. And that needs to be the absolute last time she puts her hands on anyone in anger.

She also appears to be dealing with some very stifling perfectionism, which creates a ton of control and resentment issues.  

The impression I get is that she thought Candiace was her actual, real life friend, beyond co-workers, they were friends. And Monique's idea of friendship (like mine) means you can expect that your real life, actual friend does not cultivate a new friendship with another woman who is actively spreading very hurtful, humiliating, potentially life-ruining rumors about you. I would interpret that as a betrayal, and then acting like it was just a perfectly normal, no biggie kind of thing for a friend to do, as emotional abuse.  Monique is out of her depth with Candiace, and I hope she keeps her at "friendship lite" level only, no matter what they figure out going forward.

Would you treat a real life friend the way Monique has treated Candace?  Would you show private text messages between you and your real life friend to someone she is in conflict with?  Even if it was to save your own skin, wouldn't you go to your friend first and at least ask her about it first?  

Would you talk nicely to your real life friend in private, but then dress her down and humiliate her when you got around your "cool friends?"  Would you use your friend like that?  Would you invite your real life friend on a podcast so you could antagonize her about not having a honeymoon?

Monique says Candace only wants things her way, but that sounds to me like Monique only wants a friend who she can humiliate and use and when the "friend" no longer wants that, she is suddenly not Monique's friend.  

Candace dared to be friendly with someone who didn't like Monique.  Isn't that what Monique was doing with Ashley?  

To me, Monique's behavior of being kind to Candace in private and then humiliating and degrading to her in public is way more representative of emotional abuse.  Befriending someone who your friend isnt friends with is maybe a betrayal, but its not emotional abuse.  I think sometimes that term is thrown about with reckless abandon.   Even then I think thats a stretch because Candace, to my knowledge hasn't actively spread any rumors.  

However, I agree fully with the first part of your statement.  She needs to just apologize and go away.  I get the impression that her fans are enabling her, but the RHOP viewership is larger than her fan base and the target audience for her NFL Moms podcast and website are much larger than the RHOP viewership and her fan base.  Her target audience, and advertisers don't want to deal with someone who celebrates their physical attack on someone else and makes a song about it.  Its a bad look. Her husband must be mortified.  

10 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

When Monique was describing it I didn’t think she meant she was blackout drunk, I thought she meant she in a rage blackout.

Those were also popular on MSNBC LockUp.  Sometimes drinking and rage were involved so you couldn't tell what type of fictional "blackout" they were lying about having.  It was always a blackout....but it was also completely justifiable based on a detailed recounting of events.  

[RealReality]

12 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

No, black out drunk is REAL.  I know it's real because it happened to me more than once, it's not bullshit.

But I don't think Monique was even tipsy.

I'm not saying its not real, I'm saying that in my opinion its almost always a lie to avoid accountability and responsibility and so I'm automatically suspicious of such an argument.  I'll give you a real life example.  

My old boss, who was married, used to go out and drink like we were in a 1920s speakeasy.  Once, while in such a state, she straight up, full on kissed a coworker on the mouth. 

This presented, of course, a wide variety of problems, as she was his boss, she really did not get express permission or consent, multiple people saw it and she was married.

She claimed she was "blackout drunk" but then she was able to recount all the facts and events of the evening meant to show that the co-worker had not only "implicitly consented" to the kiss, but really "wanted it."  Apparently, she was only "blacked out" for the act of kissing him, she could remember what led up to the kiss, she could remember how he behaved after the kiss, she could remember everything.....but she was "blacked out drunk" so she shouldn't be held responsible or accountable and really...no one should ever speak of it again.

 

[Neurochick]

First being blackout drunk is REAL.

Second, if Monique really blacked out, she'd probably feel some remorse.  She feels none and that's my problem with her.

As for fans of the show?  I have no idea how most fans of the show feel about her.  

 

[dosodog]

My take on Ray is he is an old, tired man who has no interest in reality tv, but his wife does.  He's going through the motions at this point because at one time he wanted to support Karen in her famewhore agenda, but now he's over it.  Particularly because it brought negative juju to him like (I. E. Tax problems, the "Uncle Ben" nickname, where do you live, etc.).

Some men do not want to be put on the spot over "I love you", particularly being filmed for a national audience.  

He just wants to be left alone to putter and yell at kids on the lawn. 

I'm waiting for the day he takes a nap during a party, like LVP'S husband did.