S10.E13: Secrets and Lies

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, ShowFan said:

But they are not benign! Pillows, piñatas...they have feelings! I’d much rather see Zach punched than that poor innocent donkey 

Are you being serious?

[Racj82]

I'm laughing at couples couch again.

Everyone was like fuck that. Leave! When Michael started crying again. You've seen this movie before! 

Also Doug saying, no you need to find a job when Michael talked about needing to be honest about his job literally made me laugh out loud.

[NowVoyager]

Re: Greg from previous season:

5 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

His house had a wrap around porch....swoon....

 

4 hours ago, OnTime said:

Don't forget the two ovens!!

 

2 hours ago, Meowwww said:

I just popped on to say this exact thing. 💜

ME, TOO! LOL!!! 🤣🥰😍🤩

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, zoltana said:

Yes!  Every time she starts in on him it makes me cringe.  She's is so obviously projecting on to him the things that are lacking in herself.  He may be a little immature, but he's young!  Does she really want him acting like an old man who's set in his ways?  He seems very responsible and thoughtful.  Who cares if he's a dreamer and wants to do fun things when he's still getting the responsible things done?  He deserves to have those dreams.  They're probably what keeps him moving forward in his job because he realizes you have to do some work to get the fun stuff.

I'm not a Katie fan but I do understand finding yourself with someone that checks all the boxes for being responsible but you somehow just don't click, and I think that might be what's going on with her and why she seems so down on Derek.  I dated a guy when I was young that was a few years younger than me and it seemed like everything he liked was different and not compatible with what I liked.  He loved Barry Manilow and Neil Diamond while I loved Led Zeppelin and the Stones.  You'd think we could have agreed on Carly Simon and Fleetwood Mac but his likes just never intersected with mine.  Plus I found his dreams and ambitions a little immature and unsophisticated.  He was very enamored and proud of his high school poetry while I thought it was shallow and childish.  He was determined to be a disc jockey in a radio station but he didn't have the voice for it - by a long shot, and I knew he'd never get anywhere with that.  He LOVED sports, especially football and I grew up in a family of artsy/intellectual types whose idea of a "sport" was a long walk after dinner on Sunday with a discussion of world events.  He would have made me a "football widow". 

This guy's family was like a working class borough New York situation comedy.  I loved them and thought they were great fun but after almost a year I knew it just wasn't going to work with him.  We had a lot of the same values, went to the same college, grew up in the same town, but there's more to clicking with someone than that.  This guy was all wrapped up in his own way and I felt like he didn't want to be open to mine, and it wasn't just that he was young and needed to "grow up".  Plus I didn't really see myself with a guy with his likes and goals.  I feel like while some of Katie's sabotaging is because of her own issues it might also be because she looks at Derek the way I do.  I think he's a great guy.....for someone else.  I would probably feel about Derek the way I felt about that guy I dated decades ago.  I think that some of Katie's reaction to him might be just that she doesn't really click with him or what he's into.  On top of that she might be comparing him to another guy that she might click with more, which doesn't help.

P.S.  I found my old BF on Facebook several months ago.  He got married and had a big family.  He finally gave up the DJ thing and went into publishing.  I'm happy for him but still, I know I made the right decision.

[Yeah No]

16 hours ago, Chalby said:

I don't know about that. Some people just love to write poetry/ songs, etc. I remember writing a heartfelt (quite good too, according to my brother) poem about unrequited love. I was ten years old. I think I was motivated to write my poems because I was always playing music, and different songs made me write about different emotions. When he answered he wrote what he thought love would be or feel like, I understood. Something has happened (text from ex beau?) that had Katie go from a starry-eyed gal acting love-sick, to a gal so desperate to get out of a marriage she is looking for any excuse, even one as pathetic as "he has never been in love". I think she is purposely sabotaging what could have been a decent match.  

Something about what Derek wrote sounded like it was based on first hand experience to me.  I have had a few guys read their youthful poetry to me that sounded like it was written by someone that was only aspiring to having certain feelings.  Derek's actually struck me as sounding a lot more like it was based on actual, genuine feelings for someone in particular.  Plus I thought he wasn't actually describing being in love, but being infatuated, or at least that's how I took it.  I think he told Katie he was writing what "he thought love would feel like" because he wasn't really writing about being in love and didn't want her to interpret what he wrote as about being in love with someone in particular.  He knew she would run with that if he admitted that the poem was written about someone in particular (she attempted to run with it anyway and make accusations but he took some of the wind out of her sails).  He also didn't want to admit to her that he was writing about crushing on or being infatuated with a specific someone else because he isn't feeling love OR infatuation for Katie and so he attempted to distance himself from the entire thing so as to sidestep her intended guilt trip.  YMMV.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yeah No

[LennieBriscoe]

16 hours ago, cinsays said:

I think if she met him and started dating him, she would not at all put up with him but she married him, so decided to just deal with it because she made the commitment. I think she stuck it out too long, but maybe she had to reach a point that made it easier to live with.

"Point" = "Earliest date allowed by contract to opt out of filming."

 

[LennieBriscoe]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I'm not a Katie fan but I do understand finding yourself with someone that checks all the boxes for being responsible but you somehow just don't click, and I think that might be what's going on with her and why she seems so down on Derek.  I dated a guy when I was young that was a few years younger than me and it seemed like everything he liked was different and not compatible with what I liked.  He loved Barry Manilow and Neil Diamond while I loved Led Zeppelin and the Stones.  You'd think we could have agreed on Carly Simon and Fleetwood Mac but his likes just never intersected with mine.  Plus I found his dreams and ambitions a little immature and unsophisticated.  He was very enamored and proud of his high school poetry while I thought it was shallow and childish.  He was determined to be a disc jockey in a radio station but he didn't have the voice for it - by a long shot, and I knew he'd never get anywhere with that.  He LOVED sports, especially football and I grew up in a family of artsy/intellectual types whose idea of a "sport" was a long walk after dinner on Sunday with a discussion of world events.  He would have made me a "football widow". 

This guy's family was like a working class borough New York situation comedy.  I loved them and thought they were great fun but after almost a year I knew it just wasn't going to work with him.  We had a lot of the same values, went to the same college, grew up in the same town, but there's more to clicking with someone than that.  This guy was all wrapped up in his own way and I felt like he didn't want to be open to mine, and it wasn't just that he was young and needed to "grow up".  Plus I didn't really see myself with a guy with his likes and goals.  I feel like while some of Katie's sabotaging is because of her own issues it might also be because she looks at Derek the way I do.  I think he's a great guy.....for someone else.  I would probably feel about Derek the way I felt about that guy I dated decades ago.  I think that some of Katie's reaction to him might be just that she doesn't really click with him or what he's into.  On top of that she might be comparing him to another guy that she might click with more, which doesn't help.

P.S.  I found my old BF on Facebook several months ago.  He got married and had a big family.  He finally gave up the DJ thing and went into publishing.  I'm happy for him but still, I know I made the right decision.

Except (sorry!) Katie is not behaving as you describe yourself: becoming less enamored as time goes on. She acts and speaks not with growing indifference, but with increasing desperation masked by anger and jealousy. 

It is DEREK  who is coming to your eventual realization. And I believe it will be DEREK who chooses divorce. 

[Hangin Out]

13 hours ago, pdlinda said:

Isn't Jamie expecting a baby???

Yes. 

[Hangin Out]

3 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Except (sorry!) Katie is not behaving as you describe yourself: becoming less enamored as time goes on. She acts and speaks not with growing indifference, but with increasing desperation masked by anger and jealousy. 

It is DEREK  who is coming to your eventual realization. And I believe it will be DEREK who chooses divorce. 

I hope, but he does seem to be completely into her .. no?  When will he finally come to the realization that she’s not good for him?  I hope sooner than later.  She does want a baby, so ....

[SnarkEnthusiast]

On 3/26/2020 at 12:06 AM, Adeejay said:

The fact that Katie is a Mental Health Professional is very worrisome.

Especially for CHILDREN when she flat out admitted this episode she herself hasn't dealt with her emotions from her own repressed childhood trauma of having to de-escalate domestic violence between her parents.

There's also some weird arrested development shit happening there...I don't know if it's that millennial women thing where everyone under 30 acts 16 but I can't believe she was taking actual offense to a poem he wrote as a sophomore in high school and was trying to extrapolate it out as a sign of him being flawed and emotionally unavailable in their month long relationship...talk about tween bullshit. She's a joyless gaslighter who finds fault in everything Derek says, does, or is.  

[Jeanne222]

T

6 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I'm laughing at couples couch again.

Everyone was like fuck that. Leave! When Michael started crying again. You've seen this movie before! 

Also Doug saying, no you need to find a job when Michael talked about needing to be honest about his job literally made me laugh out loud.

Does Doug work?  I remember him being unemployed!

Katie is a handful.  She has no joy.  I hope Derrick says no thank you on decision day.

I can't stop watching Taylor's hair!  I'd love to see her with the wig off!

Michael never makes eye contact with anybody!  Didn't they notice that when they interviewed him for the show.

Mindy will always be a victim.  Zack will always be a player.

Meka would make a good anything that required a machine gun mouth.  Wow!  She surely drew the short straw!

Edited March 27, 2020 by Jeanne222

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

Except (sorry!) Katie is not behaving as you describe yourself: becoming less enamored as time goes on. She acts and speaks not with growing indifference, but with increasing desperation masked by anger and jealousy. 

It is DEREK  who is coming to your eventual realization. And I believe it will be DEREK who chooses divorce. 

Naah, I don't believe she is really all that into Derek.  She's still thinking about her former male companion and comparing him heavily to Derek and I think Derek is coming up on the short end of that stick in her mind right now.  Her jealousy is because her ego is bruised that Derek hasn't fallen madly in love with her.  She wants to be the one with the upper hand/power to make the choice to reject or accept him and realizing that he isn't that into her and might actually dump HER is taking that power away from  her and making her worry that she may actually end up with neither guy in the end.  That's where the desperation comes in.  She wants to be sure she has a fall back plan should one of them back out on her.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Yeah No

[LaLaLaLa]

1 hour ago, Jeanne222 said:

I can't stop watching Taylor's hair!  I'd love to see her with the wig off!

I'd love to see her with the wig fall off

[ReadMeLattice]

On 3/25/2020 at 8:23 PM, DrewPaul2010 said:

No it looks like Mindy has finally had it if anyone. Probably should have a while a go.

At the risk of sounding like a male chauvinist I would love to see Mindy at the re-union show with a dazzling new hair cut or a perm and have a make over and knock everyone over... 

I agree. I know some people were suggesting she doesn't look very good on the show, but I always thought she was just stressed. I wouldn't be that motivated to try to look incredible for someone who already thought I wasn't attractive on my WEDDING day. Even people who aren't all that great-looking tend to look good on their wedding day (and she looked beautiful). If someone doesn't like you then, they probably won't. That's about as good as it gets, with full makeup/hair/bridal glow. 

At the risk of sounding shallow, she's actually looked less and less attractive to me as the season went on. I thought she was gorgeous at first (and she is). You could just see the stress, pain and exhaustion on her face and in her body language. That wears on you over time and makes you look less attractive. And imagine if she'd worn sexy cocktail dresses and full makeup every time he came over...she would have looked desperate or like she was trying too hard and it would have been even more embarrassing for her. 

[Racj82]

1 minute ago, Lm2162 said:

I agree. I know some people were suggesting she doesn't look very good on the show, but I always thought she was just stressed. I wouldn't be that motivated to try to look incredible for someone who already thought I wasn't attractive on my WEDDING day. Even people who aren't all that great-looking tend to look good on their wedding day (and she looked beautiful). If someone doesn't like you then, they probably won't. That's about as good as it gets, with full makeup/hair/bridal glow. 

At the risk of sounding shallow, she's actually looked less and less attractive to me as the season went on. I thought she was gorgeous at first (and she is). You could just see the stress, pain and exhaustion on her face and in her body language. That wears on you over time and makes you look less attractive. And imagine if she'd worn sexy cocktail dresses and full makeup every time he came over...she would have looked desperate or like she was trying too hard and it would have been even more embarrassing for her. 

I will never understand this. Why in the world should she be getting all dolled up for a dude that never does? He's comes over looking as comfortable as ever but she keeps getting examined because she doesn't? 

They were mostly at home or eating lunch or something. She dresses comfortably. As she should be.

He wouldn't give a shit anyway. He had his mind made up about her very early on. How she dresses would change nothing and make her desperate for trying so hard.

It's also not who she is. I don't care about how Mindy dresses. Or how any of these people in the sense that I don't judge them for it. Mindy isn't trying to show out for the cameras or Zach's punk ass. Good. She's doing her. He can take or leave. She does dress up when they go out to dinner or something like that. During her regular time, she had her look.

I'm not even attracted to Mindy but it has nothing to do with how she dresses. That level of skinny never attracts me. But, I wouldn't have been shut off like Zach was either. She at least seems like great person. I would have given it a real shot.

[gonecrackers]

6 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

It is DEREK  who is coming to your eventual realization. And I believe it will be DEREK who chooses divorce. 

I believe Derek already has this realization but is "committed" to what he's doing, the show, etc. He is trying, but, seems lukewarm toward her at best, & may be more frustrated with Katie then he's letting on. Given Katie's behavior, I hope it's Derek who chooses divorce, but,

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Naah, I don't believe she is really all that into Derek.  She's still thinking about her former male companion and comparing him heavily to Derek and I think Derek is coming up on the short end of that stick in her mind right now.  Her jealousy is because her ego is bruised that Derek hasn't fallen madly in love with her.  She wants to be the one with the upper hand/power to make the choice to reject or accept him and realizing that he isn't that into her and might actually dump HER is taking that power away from  her and making her worry that she may actually end up with neither guy in the end.  That's where the desperation comes in.  She wants to be sure she has a fall back plan should one of them back out on her.

... it might be Katie because of this. Reject before being rejected. How humiliating it would be for her to be rejected by such an uncool "nerd" (her view of him, not mine).

I could also see them coming to an agreement & saying it's a mutual decision to save face on both sides, with Katie then going on a SM spree trashing Derek.

Actually no matter what happens between them with the (assumed) divorce I could see her doing that.

----

Reg. Mindy, I thought her wedding look aged her terribly. Their wedding picture looks like she's with her younger brother. She looks much better on Unfiltered & various TH's. I despised Zach throwing his lack of attraction back at her, as if she could do something about it. She shouldn't change herself at all, just accept herself & find someone else accepting (& if they don't move on easily) & she'll be fine.

Edited March 27, 2020 by gonecrackers

[Meowwww]

I’m dying at Anthony’s shirt on Couple’s Couch!!!  He was poppin’ his pecs!!! 🤣🤣

[ReadMeLattice]

Overall reactions-

Jessica and Austin- I get that some think Jessica is a little uptight, but some people are just a bit more type-A and I think Austin enjoys it a little, he seems like someone who definitely wouldn't mind that nurturing dynamic.

I also think she's acting upset about his traveling because she's very, very head over heels for him. She doesn't seem like a woman who feels that a lot and lets herself get caught up in extreme emotions often. It's probably a little unnerving for her; she seems like someone who has everything 'under control' most of the time. She's not just a nurse, she's a patient care manager and probably usually feels like she's in a position of authority where people rely on her and look to her for answers and help, etc. This is probably a bit scary for her, to feel a little out of control. I think they'll make it. 

Derek/Katie- I'm SUPER biased about Derek/Katie because I love Derek. Derek is a gem and a very sweet man. He'll be a great husband to someone- thoughtful, protective, adventurous, probably generous and giving in bed. The 'up for anything but still a family man' type. Would build a DIY treehouse, work hard at his job, have lots of sex with you, go out for cocktails and play with the kids all in a matter of days. Katie is squandering it with her CONSTANT whining. He seems like somebody who could please a bit of a bratty or high maintenance woman if she was equally giving as him in other ways. But she gives literally nothing and expects everything.

I hate to be that person, but she's not even conventionally attractive- and I understand that's far from the most important thing- but where did she get this level of ego? It's not like she's particularly put-together and accomplished like Jessica or sweet and kind like Mindy, either, so I really don't get why she thinks she deserves the world and then some.

Brandon and Taylor- WHY are they subjecting us to this. I can't stand either one. 

Mindy and Zach- Glad she finally grew a backbone. Part of me doesn't get why she held on so long, but part of me admires her for taking commitment and marriage vows so seriously. When she does find that person, she will be a very loyal and devoted partner. Like Derek, she deserves a million times better. 

Meka and Michael- No matter how harsh Meka can come across, I can't imagine at this point that I would come across any better. Forging an offer letter is honestly downright scary. I don't care if she called him every name in the book and shrieked all day long. That is a f**king scary level of dishonesty. That's a scam/con artist thing, not insecurity over being adopted. I could imagine downplaying your flaws or exaggerating your accomplishments due to past trauma...not literally lying about your job and salary and even your hobbies like teaching yoga on the side. SCARY. One of the creepiest things we've ever seen on this show. I wouldn't put anything past someone like that. 

[rebel2u]

On 3/25/2020 at 9:37 PM, Silver Bells said:

Katy is immature and annoying.  Just my opinion of course.

And everybody else's

[LennieBriscoe]

21 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

 Cafe MAFS Menu

The Zach and Michael Special

Word Salad and Whine of choice

The Jessica and Austin Special

Mashed Potatoes, 2 Slices White Bread and Large Glass of cold Lowfat Milk

The Meka Special

Kellogg's Froot Loops Marshmallow (48% sugar) topped with Nerds

The Mindy Special

Bottomless Wine goblet

The Derek Special

 Mermaid Ceviche and Unicorn Filet...Surf and Turf

The Katie Special

Who Are You? What the F*ck Am I Eating? Chef Surprise

The Taylor Special

Mess O' Spaghetti Bowl

The Brandon Drink

Absolute on the Rocks

 

 

 

 

Kudos! I especially love the "Katie Special"! 😄😄 

[rebel2u]

On 3/25/2020 at 10:35 PM, Jaclyn88 said:

Does anyone else want to shake Mindy because she doesn’t seem mad at her “friend “ Lindsay at all ? While she’s going on about Zach who , let’s face it , was never gonna be into her or say yes on decision day .. I kept thinking about how much I wanted Mindy to tell her friend off , yet she didn’t say a bad word about her . The fact that she was talking to him at all behind my back would have made me end the friendship . 

 

On 3/25/2020 at 10:01 PM, LilaFowler said:

Mindy is a better person than I. If my experience on this show were anything like hers, I'd be pissed.

 

On 3/25/2020 at 10:41 PM, MyTwoCents said:

Mindy is a woman of substance and character. She is way too good for Zatch, who’s superficial and lies!

They need a better BS detector for people like Michael and Zatch

Yes, she does have substance and character.  She is classy in a way I aspire to be.  (Oh my gosh, I'm fangirling over a MAFS participant!  File this under "Things I never thought  I'd do". . .       : )

[sasha206]

43 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

I will never understand this. Why in the world should she be getting all dolled up for a dude that never does? He's comes over looking as comfortable as ever but she keeps getting examined because she doesn't? 

They were mostly at home or eating lunch or something. She dresses comfortably. As she should be.

He wouldn't give a shit anyway. He had his mind made up about her very early on. How she dresses would change nothing and make her desperate for trying so hard.

It's also not who she is. I don't care about how Mindy dresses. Or how any of these people in the sense that I don't judge them for it. Mindy isn't trying to show out for the cameras or Zach's punk ass. Good. She's doing her. He can take or leave. She does dress up when they go out to dinner or something like that. During her regular time, she had her look.

I'm not even attracted to Mindy but it has nothing to do with how she dresses. That level of skinny never attracts me. But, I wouldn't have been shut off like Zach was either. She at least seems like great person. I would have given it a real shot.

I think Mindy looked beautiful throughout the show and I'm surprised at how much talk there is about how she looks on this very board.  I can only assume it's really more of a reflection on the fact Zach wasn't attracted to her so damn it she needs to change her look as if Zach is some sort of Greek God she wasn't worthy of.

And please, Mindy.  If you are going to mess with your beautiful, shiny hair, please do not get a perm.

 

 

[sasha206]

52 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

I hate to be that person, but she's not even conventionally attractive- and I understand that's far from the most important thing- but where did she get this level of ego? It's not like she's particularly put-together and accomplished like Jessica or sweet and kind like Mindy, either, so I really don't get why she thinks she deserves the world and then some.

 

EDITED:  Deleted post where I complained about her looks being commented b/c it was too self-righteous particularly since I called Lindsay frumpy in the previous posts!

Edited March 27, 2020 by sasha206

[ReadMeLattice]

14 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

EDITED:  Deleted post where I complained about her looks being commented b/c it was too self-righteous particularly since I called Lindsay frumpy in the previous posts!

I know it's not important. My only point is that she acts like someone who's been told her whole life that she's extra-magical and special and deserves better treatment than anybody else. I don't mean that someone would have the RIGHT to act like that if they were super-hot--they don't, it's also an unattractive quality in very attractive people. But since she also doesn't seem to have other amazing personal qualities, I wonder where she got that inflated ego and sense of superiority. 

[sasha206]

1 minute ago, Lm2162 said:

I know it's not important. My only point is that she acts like someone who's been told her whole life that she's extra-magical and special and deserves better treatment than anybody else. I don't mean that someone would have the RIGHT to act like that if they were super-hot--they don't, it's also an unattractive quality in very attractive people. But since she also doesn't seem to have other amazing personal qualities, I wonder where she got that inflated ego and sense of superiority

After I typed out my original response of self-righteousness, I started thinking of the numerous times I've commented things like "She's not as hot as she thinks he is." I believe I also typed that Michael is too ugly to get away with the lies.  So basically what I'm saying is I've made far worse comments than yours and should basically shut the fuck up!

[ReadMeLattice]

1 minute ago, sasha206 said:

After I typed out my original response of self-righteousness, I started thinking of the numerous times I've commented things like "She's not as hot as she thinks he is." I believe I also typed that Michael is too ugly to get away with the lies.  So basically what I'm saying is I've made far worse comments than yours and should basically shut the fuck up!

Yeah I struggle with these things too lol, I try not to comment on people's looks (and plenty of not-at-all-attractive people are wonderful and deserve incredible partners, obviously) but people like Michael and Katie try my patience and stretch my limits.

[sasha206]

2 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Yeah I struggle with these things too lol, I try not to comment on people's looks (and plenty of not-at-all-attractive people are wonderful and deserve incredible partners, obviously) but people like Michael and Katie try my patience and stretch my limits.

LOL, I get it.  It just took me a minute to reflect and have a moment of self-awareness to realize I've made far worse comments in the past!

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, rebel2u said:

And everybody else's

Yeah I feel like at this point, the idea that Katie is immature and annoying is more of an established fact than an opinion. 😂

[KateHearts]

I'm glad Mindy finally dumped Zach's ass, because I was getting tired of watching this all evolve only to have the previous episodes end with her acting hopeful and ridiculously optimistic.

I agree that she kept classy, but keeping your dignity is not the same as being a doormat. when he would spew his nonsensical drivel, and her brows would furrow, that was a good time for her to (in a classy way) put her hand up and say, "whoa, wait a minute; stop. You're saying what? You aren't making sense." Or when he blatantly lied, she could have said "no, back up. That is not true. Here is what happened." Instead, she continued to nod and present an accepting face to his phony attempts at the "relationship." When she would say "I'm your WIFE," it didn't mean anything. He wasn't acting husbandly from the get-go and the marriage was a sham, so saying that was empty.

Also, Zach's allegations that he never lied are completely false, the "remote friend" story notwithstanding. Having a hidden relationship with Lyndsay is a lie- it's a lie of omission. The fact that he did not disclose it to Mindy means he has things to lie about.

I kept rewinding the paycheck thing over and over because between Michael's mumbling and the roundabout questions/answers, I was having great difficulty in following. My interpretation is that maybe the salary offer was low (maybe he had quoted her a larger number?) and he was trying to do backwards math to convince her that the gross salary presented on the offer was really his net? I respect Meka more now than I did a week ago; however, her repeating that "maybe we can make this work" is all a line. No WAY would I continue to pursue a (new) relationship with someone so obviously unable to be forthright about ridiculous things like gas mileage (?!) as well as big things like salary and occupation. 

I think Taylor and Brandon are just grinding along at this point to stay on TV. 

If my husband showed me his college (high school?) cooler with a dream list on it, my only reaction would be that it was sweet. Katie wants to think she has the upper hand in their relationship and I hope that he shocks her by deciding to split at decision day. Her inflated sense of self-importance, her belief that her view of the future should be his, is going to get her in every relationship. Her comment that "I have supported you in all of your dreams, even the ones that are STUPID!" is still riling me up.

[Empress1]

29 minutes ago, KateHearts said:

Also, Zach's allegations that he never lied are completely false, the "remote friend" story notwithstanding. Having a hidden relationship with Lyndsay is a lie- it's a lie of omission. The fact that he did not disclose it to Mindy means he has things to lie about.

Exactly. My best friend’s husband and I have texted just the two of us. It’s totally innocuous: he’s picking me up from the airport when I’ve visited, or about sports (about which my best friend cares not at all), or maybe a book somebody read and really liked (“Best Friend said you just finished Book, would you recommend it?”), or if he’s with their kids and one of the kids does something cute, he’ll send me a pic or video. I also have a group chat with both of them. But my best friend knows about all this (sometimes I’ll mention it to her during an exchange, in fun, like “your husband is trying to say team x is better than team y; please tell him he’s tripping”). If she wanted to see screen shots, I’d be like “Here you go!” There’s nothing furtive about it. If Zach and Lindsay thought their friendship was so innocent, they’d have mentioned it off top. “Hey, your friend Lindsay DMed me” or “I reached out to Zach” or whatever. I can’t remember who reached out to whom first, but the fact that they kept it a secret is problematic on its own. If it was that innocent there wouldn’t have been all this lying about it.

[sasha206]

11 hours ago, Racj82 said:

That's interesting what Doug just said about Katie on couples couch.

We were joking earlier about it being scary that Katie being a mental health professional is scary with how she acts.

Doug thinks that her being in that field is pushing her to make all of these judgments BECAUSE of the field she is in.

 

I don't think so.  If she were approaching him as a subject/patient based on her profession I would think she'd be less emotional, less hurtful and more analytical.  The only time I think her therapist training kicked was during the "fuck you" discussion where she rather calmly laid out that it was inappropriate and her expectations.

[ReadMeLattice]

16 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Exactly. My best friend’s husband and I have texted just the two of us. It’s totally innocuous: he’s picking me up from the airport when I’ve visited, or about sports (about which my best friend cares not at all), or maybe a book somebody read and really liked (“Best Friend said you just finished Book, would you recommend it?”), or if he’s with their kids and one of the kids does something cute, he’ll send me a pic or video. I also have a group chat with both of them. But my best friend knows about all this (sometimes I’ll mention it to her during an exchange, in fun, like “your husband is trying to say team x is better than team y; please tell him he’s tripping”). If she wanted to see screen shots, I’d be like “Here you go!” There’s nothing furtive about it. If Zach and Lindsay thought their friendship was so innocent, they’d have mentioned it off top. “Hey, your friend Lindsay DMed me” or “I reached out to Zach” or whatever. I can’t remember who reached out to whom first, but the fact that they kept it a secret is problematic on its own. If it was that innocent there wouldn’t have been all this lying about it.

Especially because Mindy and Zach were strangers! I don't tell my husband every single person I text, but if we had just started dating (which is basically what they're doing on this show, albeit with a legal contract) and I met his buddy and started texting him about our relationship, he would think it was extremely weird if I kept it a secret.

This isn't Zach's longtime female friend that Mindy is being weirdly jealous about or something, this is someone he only met on the same day he met his wife. I feel like he tried to act like Mindy thought it was weird to ever speak to other women, but that's obvious gaslighting...this isn't his 'friend,' it's hers, and he barely knows either of them. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

18 hours ago, Neurochick said:

They think you'll like them if they say what they think you want to hear.

So they just don't look ahead, to when it will be revealed they're lying?  Because who's going to like them then?  Or they think you'll have grown to like them so much that you won't care?

They're clearly not dealing with me.  How do these people keep anyone in their lives? 

 

16 hours ago, LaLaLaLa said:

I like Meka, too.  On top of what you said about her, she's also analytical and direct, which I like in a mate. If she had been properly matched, I think we would have seen a more relaxed Meka. A person can only take so much before losing it. I'd be pretty uptight if I was with someone who lied ALL THE TIME.

I felt defensive when people would criticize Meka for being harsh and relentless, because that's exactly how I would be if somebody's lying to me.  That honeymoon thing--admit you said it.  Just admit you fucking said it.

 

16 hours ago, zoltana said:

That actually didn't bother me to much.  I was thinking oh wow, he acted like a college, frat boy when he was a college, frat boy.  Shocker Katie.

Perhaps my reaction is not so much to his frat boy antics, but the fact that he was a frat boy, and apparently a pretty typical one.  Never have been drawn to them.

 

4 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

She's a joyless gaslighter who finds fault in everything Derek says, does, or is.  

Serious question--how is she a gaslighter?  What false scenario is she trying to make him believe?

 

2 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Derek/Katie- I'm SUPER biased about Derek/Katie because I love Derek. Derek is a gem and a very sweet man. He'll be a great husband to someone- thoughtful, protective, adventurous, probably generous and giving in bed. The 'up for anything but still a family man' type.

But I don't think they've done any crazy fun things--certainly not on the level of sneaking into a circus to pet elephants.  Maybe that's what Katie's jealous of--he's done fun stuff in the past, but she hasn't experienced it herself.  And he has these dreams that don't have anything to do with her.

Not defending her--I don't like her*.  But I can see how that would bug.

*but I still love her wedding dress.

 

2 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Jessica and Austin- I get that some think Jessica is a little uptight, but some people are just a bit more type-A and I think Austin enjoys it a little, he seems like someone who definitely wouldn't mind that nurturing dynamic.

I'm still wondering why they tagged him as "mama's boy."  Maybe he's just transformed from that to a Jessica's boy.

 

[ReadMeLattice]

8 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

But I don't think they've done any crazy fun things--certainly not on the level of sneaking into a circus to pet elephants.  Maybe that's what Katie's jealous of--he's done fun stuff in the past, but she hasn't experienced it herself.  And he has these dreams that don't have anything to do with her.

Not defending her--I don't like her*.  But I can see how that would bug.

*but I still love her wedding dress.

 

I can understand wanting someone to be more adventurous with you if you think they've done it with others...but, I mean, it's not like he petted elephants every weekend, he did it once during college.

They're just getting to know each other and have only been married, what, five weeks? And at least one of those weeks was spent on a honeymoon in Panama. And they've spent the four weeks since with her being angry at him and having fights to the point that he slept on the couch at least once. They've also still been going to work every day during that month and moving in together and lots of other normal-life things. 

So I guess it's like...what does she expect? When have they even had time to do all this stuff in their extremely brief marriage and move-in period? 

Not to mention, I would understand the feeling of wanting someone to be as fun with you as you were with others, but when he *tried* to tell her he wanted to do fun stuff in the future, she shot him down and said he was unrealistic, immature, and not a man. Like, if I was in his position, I'd be so confused that someone who just told me treehouses were stupid, children's books were stupid, and backpacking in different countries was stupid, was now jealous that I didn't pet an elephant with her. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Lm2162

[StatisticalOutlier]

2 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

So I guess it's like...what does she expect? When have they even had time to do all this stuff in their extremely brief marriage and move-in period? 

I actually agree.  I'm just trying to understand why she's feeling the way she is.

 

2 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Like, if I was in his position, I'd be so confused that someone who just told me treehouses were stupid, children's books were stupid, and backpacking in different countries was stupid, was now jealous that I didn't pet an elephant with her.

My theory is that it's the "with her" that bothers her.  If she doesn't want to build the treehouse, then that's something he's going to do not with her.  He's obviously going to write the children's book not with her.  And backpacking?  I don't know...maybe she doesn't want to go backpacking.

She's said that she wants to have kids ASAP, and it's pretty clear that he doesn't, and the dreams he has that he hasn't gotten around to doing yet are going to be even harder if he has kids.

There's just a mismatch here.  She wants to have kids and be settled.  He apparently wants to do a bunch of stuff and then have kids. 

[ReadMeLattice]

My other theory, which may not be popular, is that Katie is even more into kinky/50 Shades of Grey stuff and dominant men than she lets on and she's realizing he might not be so much. She's obsessed with the 'he's not a man, he's a boy' stuff, she wants him to take the lead in everything, she wants him to be rough with her in the bedroom, and she was upset that she initiated sex on their honeymoon rather than him. Not that he *should,* mind you, but I think her bratty, testing behavior is sometimes some kind of ploy to get him to knock her down a peg and take charge. Even if it's unconscious. 

Doesn't excuse her behavior, but I think if he got really alpha with her and took the upper hand, she'd actually 'keep sweet' and stop testing him so much. Is that mature or appropriate, no, but it's my secret hypothesis for some of her more baffling moments. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Lm2162

[LaLaLaLa]

57 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

 If Zach and Lindsay thought their friendship was so innocent, they’d have mentioned it off top. “Hey, your friend Lindsay DMed me” or “I reached out to Zach” or whatever. I can’t remember who reached out to whom first, but the fact that they kept it a secret is problematic on its own. If it was that innocent there wouldn’t have been all this lying about it.

AND they both DELETED all communications.

[configdotsys]

19 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

But Jessica didn’t chose to marry a military spouse though I suppose she could have gotten one on this show. My husband travels sometimes 2-3 weeks at a time and it’s hard - especially with kids. Someone else’s life is surely harder than mine but it doesn’t mean I can’t find it difficult and/or express that to someone else.

Putting aside that it's producer driven: there is a difference between expressing that things are difficult and that you wish they were different and going on in a talking head about "how am I supposed to start a marriage when my husband is not there?" She sounded like a baby, or a 15 year old who just can't bear to be away from her love for 20 seconds or she will just die! I would expect more from a nurse who should understand that not everyone has traditional work hours and that is part of the deal. 

19 hours ago, Neurochick said:

They think you'll like them if they say what they think you want to hear.

I can see this if someone lied about their salary because they felt inferior, or where they have traveled because they don't want to feel as though they will be viewed as unworldly or something if people are talking about all these exotic places that they have visited. I've never heard of anyone being paranoid that someone will not like them based on the mileage on their car. That just show a whole different level of weirdness. I totally agree with you that he should not marry anyone until he gets himself some kind of help to deal with this. Frankly though, he does not come across as a person aware that he has a problem that requires help. It's all about deflecting blame and trying to stop confrontations cold with the same sob story every time. Not suggesting he didn't have a difficult time of it but using as a shield that every single time you do something wrong is just not acceptable. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by configdotsys
typo

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I would expect more from a nurse who should understand that not everyone has traditional work hours and that is part of the deal. 

Yeah but there's a difference between working 12 hours a day, three days a week and being completely gone for 1-2 weeks at a time. I can see a scenario where she works three 12 hours shifts, then he leaves for 2 weeks and they get almost no time together for close to three weeks. That's hard - even though some have it much more difficult.

I concur that this is all producer driven. I think Austin and Jessica are doing just fine and the producers just need to find some sort of "conflict" to keep them from just being another boring, happy couple. I think they'll be fine.

[sasha206]

5 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

I can see this if someone lied about their salary because they felt inferior, or where they have traveled because they don't want to feel as though they will be viewed as unworldly or something if people are talking about all these exotic places that they have visited. I've never heard of anyone being paranoid that someone will not like them based on the mileage on their car. That just show a whole different level of weirdness. I totally agree with you that he should not marry anyone until he gets himself some kind of help to deal with this. Frankly though, he does not come across as a person aware that he has a problem that requires help. It's all about deflecting blame and trying to stop confrontations cold with the same sob story every time. Not suggesting he didn't have a difficult time of it but using as a shield that every single time you do something wrong is just not acceptable. 

And there's the lie of him demanding sex on the honeymoon.  

[sasha206]

I haven't started drinking, but let me just say how much I love the people on this thread that make me laugh and give me things to think about during this strange time!

[gonecrackers]

11 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

I can see this if someone lied about their salary because they felt inferior, or where they have traveled because they don't want to feel as though they will be viewed as unworldly or something if people are talking about all these exotic places that they have visited. I've never heard of anyone being paranoid that someone will not like them based on the mileage on their car. That just show a whole different level of weirdness. I totally agree with you that he should not marry anyone until he gets himself some kind of help to deal with this. Frankly though, he does not come across as a person aware that he has a problem that requires help. It's all about deflecting blame and trying to stop confrontations cold with the same sob story every time. Not suggesting he didn't have a difficult time of it but using as a shield that every single time you do something wrong is just not acceptable. 

Yeah. I've written that he needs therapy, but therapy is useless for people who don't acknowledge they have a problem, or, just don't care.

[DrewPaul2010]

16 hours ago, Myrtle Urkele said:

Oh I 100% agree. He definitely did it to himself, as always. Even he is embarrassed by his dumb lies.

They should make an app to help keep lies straight...

[configdotsys]

12 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

Yeah but there's a difference between working 12 hours a day, three days a week and being completely gone for 1-2 weeks at a time. I can see a scenario where she works three 12 hours shifts, then he leaves for 2 weeks and they get almost no time together for close to three weeks. That's hard - even though some have it much more difficult.

I concur that this is all producer driven. I think Austin and Jessica are doing just fine and the producers just need to find some sort of "conflict" to keep them from just being another boring, happy couple. I think they'll be fine.

I hope so. It can be overcome. Her initial reaction just really irritated me because I was in the same position that Austin is in and my spouse didn't 3rd degree me about it or get all huffy about being deprived of my being home. He simply understood that that was part of the package and had a very supportive reaction rather than a selfish "Look what this does to ME" type attitude. I'm sure the producers were thrilled that he has a travel job because they needed to find something to bicker about.

[DrewPaul2010]

3 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Meka and Michael- No matter how harsh Meka can come across, I can't imagine at this point that I would come across any better. Forging an offer letter is honestly downright scary. I don't care if she called him every name in the book and shrieked all day long. That is a f**king scary level of dishonesty. That's a scam/con artist thing, not insecurity over being adopted. I could imagine downplaying your flaws or exaggerating your accomplishments due to past trauma...not literally lying about your job and salary and even your hobbies like teaching yoga on the side. SCARY. One of the creepiest things we've ever seen on this show. I wouldn't put anything past someone like that. 

Here is an extreme example of what a perpetual liar can lead too. When this man's lies were exposed he took to murdering...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lori_Hacking

 

[pdlinda]

15 hours ago, Kira53 said:

 

I worked on the defense side of the criminal justice system for MANY years (retired now) and your assessment of these participants' likely personality disorders is spot on!  That neither has yet to intersect with the law (when lying transforms into illegal acts) is interesting.  Maybe with Zach's ability to "fast talk" his fitness clients that leads to him being able to make a living, it's a better bet that he could remain above law enforcement; however, with Michael and his job history of bouncing from job to job and fabricating documents, I find it less likely.  These types of men (I dealt with many) hatch schemes to make $$$ and they always get caught (at least those I worked with in jail and prison).  They also always leave a trail of women with emotionally broken lives (including being wiped out financially) who fell for their "lines."  

Meka is fortunate that she got this life lesson while filming a reality show so she can extricate herself from Michael without investing any more of her emotional energy (let alone possibly financial resources) than is warranted in 8 weeks (or however long the show is on).

[princelina]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I feel like while some of Katie's sabotaging is because of her own issues it might also be because she looks at Derek the way I do.  I think he's a great guy.....for someone else.  I would probably feel about Derek the way I felt about that guy I dated decades ago.  I think that some of Katie's reaction to him might be just that she doesn't really click with him or what he's into.  On top of that she might be comparing him to another guy that she might click with more, which doesn't help.

I could understand feeling like that - but when she nastily calls him a dork and a loser to his face (like she did in the previews) she is sending a different message.

 

3 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I worked on the defense side of the criminal justice system for MANY years (retired now) and your assessment of these participants' likely personality disorders is spot on!  That neither has yet to intersect with the law (when lying transforms into illegal acts) is interesting.  Maybe with Zach's ability to "fast talk" his fitness clients that leads to him being able to make a living, it's a better bet that he could remain above law enforcement;

Fortunately for Zach, being a giant asshole is perfectly legal 😄 

[sasha206]

16 minutes ago, DrewPaul2010 said:

Here is an extreme example of what a perpetual liar can lead too. When this man's lies were exposed he took to murdering...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lori_Hacking

 

What's really wild to me is that he's on national TV lying.  Did he not think of the repercussions of being televised lying?

[DrewPaul2010]

55 minutes ago, configdotsys said:

I hope so. It can be overcome. Her initial reaction just really irritated me because I was in the same position that Austin is in and my spouse didn't 3rd degree me about it or get all huffy about being deprived of my being home. He simply understood that that was part of the package and had a very supportive reaction rather than a selfish "Look what this does to ME" type attitude. I'm sure the producers were thrilled that he has a travel job because they needed to find something to bicker about.

It could be worse that she is concerned about the time away...she digs him. Its not a deal breaker by any means. Think about it I can't see you as much as I want so I'll solve it by ending our marriage and never seeing you again! This is the only couple that has a lock on staying married and having a great marriage. In their case the absence will make the heart grow fonder...

[Hangin Out]

7 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Especially for CHILDREN when she flat out admitted this episode she herself hasn't dealt with her emotions from her own repressed childhood trauma of having to de-escalate domestic violence between her parents.

There's also some weird arrested development shit happening there...I don't know if it's that millennial women thing where everyone under 30 acts 16 but I can't believe she was taking actual offense to a poem he wrote as a sophomore in high school and was trying to extrapolate it out as a sign of him being flawed and emotionally unavailable in their month long relationship...talk about tween bullshit. She's a joyless gaslighter who finds fault in everything Derek says, does, or is.  

These spoiled (some, not everyone) millennials crack me up.  They have everything, but still complain.  In my day, my mother worked, never came up to school to see me in a play or whatever, I never had beautiful clothes, was on my own most of the time, had no money, blah, blah blah. Went to school, nobody helped with my homework, and I always went to school not knowing my stuff.  Still, I got a good job, worked and got married without any help.  I’m sure I’m not the only one.  There are up and downs in life.  You have to figure out things by yourself.  It makes you stronger.  Katy seems to have had everything.  Maybe too much, as she doesn’t know what the hell she wants and needs to come down from her Ivory Tower.  Being humble makes you a better person. She is too spoiled.  Who is she to make judgement on him?  He seems to have it all together, not her.