S12.E10: The Timeless Children (Part 2)

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

The true identity of Ruth is revealed when the Doctor and friends travel to Mondas to defeat the Lone Cyberman.

Season finale! Airing Sunday, March 1, 2020.

[DanaK]

**Program Note: This is 65 minutes long. It starts at 6:50pm on BBC1 and at 8pm on BBCAmerica (and goes 90 minutes with commercials)

Full synopsis:

In the epic and emotional series finale, the Cybermen are on the march. As the last remaining humans are ruthlessly hunted down, Graham, Ryan and Yaz face a terrifying fight to survive. Civilisations fall. Others rise anew. Lies are exposed, truths are revealed, battles are fought, and for the Doctor — trapped and alone — nothing will ever be the same again.

Guest cast:

Ravio - Julie Graham

Fakout - Barack Stemis

Written by Chris Chibnall

Directed by Jamie Magnus Stone

Next-time trailer from BBC

 

Trailer from BBC America

 

[DanaK]

New trailer

More pictures https://m.facebook.com/127031120644257/posts/4064620220218641/?d=n

Edited February 24, 2020 by DanaK
Replaced trailer with official version

[DanaK]

Programming reminder: The finale on Sunday night will be shown on the BBC from 6:50pm to 8pm. The episode page and producers may say it’s 65 minutes but the time slot is 70 minutes long and several articles say it’s 70 minutes. Just be prepared if you are recording and be prepared for the earlier start time. I hope the BBC is properly promoting the earlier start time. On BBC America in the US, the episode starts at the usual time of 8pm ET/7pm CT and goes for 1 hour 33 minutes

[HauntedBathroom]

Well...the Master had a good moment when he realised he'd killed the Cyberman before he could use a good final taunt.

And there was a clip seqeuence.

But otherwise...

Meh. Whatever. The Time Lords will be back in all of their silly hatted glory, the Cyberman will still be stomping around say 'delete',

Meh.

Edited March 1, 2020 by HauntedBathroom

[Llywela]

Right. Okay. Processing.

I think I already knew and had accepted that whatever new version of the Doctor's history we were given would not reconcile with what we already knew - I don't like it, but I expected it. And I'm tired of the show destroying the Time Lords and Gallifrey (and then bringing them back, to destroy them again).

Other than that, better than I expected. How many TARDISes has the Doctor just left lying around this season?

[AudienceofOne]

That was amazing. Turns out there IS a retcon that would annoy me more than the Doctor founding the Time Lords with Rassilon.

[Joe Hellandback]

Ok, watching in the UK so spoilers for the US/Commonwealth;

1. Have to say, the design of the Time Lord Cybermen is gorgeous. 

2. So the Dr has ditched her companions? Do we want to actually see them back?

3. Nice idea with putting on the Cyberman outfits, always wanted to see that happen. But couldn't they have kept the guns? 

4. Always suspected that the Dr and Master were actually the sneaky beaky boys who did the Time Lord's dirty work.

5. Not sure I buy the whole regeneration idea, I always thought that was via exposure to the Time Vortex, hence why we got River? But then maybe it was the Time Vortex which came from the Dr's essence? 

6. Nice to see a flashback through the past Doctors and again, nice to see McCann definitely included, I'm sure a lot of people have slow motioned it and there's more to it. Was the War Doctor there?

7. 'Revolution of the Daleks'? Interesting, we'd already had Resurrection, Revelation and Remembrance.  

7/10

[Llywela]

46 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

That was amazing. Turns out there IS a retcon that would annoy me more than the Doctor founding the Time Lords with Rassilon.

We all knew going in, though, that there was going to be a retcon and it wasn't really going to make sense - right? So on that basis...I think I need to go away and sleep on it, because part of me is going, "Well, the retcon wasn't actually as bad as I feared - kind of intriguing, in a way," and another part of me is jumping up and down, wailing, "But there are all these details that don't make sense!"

And, I guess...contradictory backstory has always been a hallmark of Doctor Who, but there was a reason for it, back in the classic era - the episodes were throwaway, not expected to be watched twice, writers had no access to the history, no show bible was maintained, it was neither possible nor expected to maintain any kind of strict continuity in the way we think of it today. But it has always amazed me how much reboot Doctor Who has prided itself on being a modern show told with modern continuity...while regularly riding roughshod over its own history.

One last thought before I go to bed: so just how long has Morbius been bugging Chris Chibnall, then???

ETA: okay, final, final thought for the night - this episode retrospectively makes Matt Smith's regeneration a whole lot funnier. Because, if I'm understanding it right, this episode tells us that while the Time Lords imposed as 12 regeneration limit on themselves, the Doctor as the Timeless Child has no such limit, right? So there's Clara pleading with the Time Lords to grant the Doctor another regeneration cycle...and the Time Lords making it look like they were so benevolent, granting that wish...when it wasn't necessary after all!

Oh, this retcon retcons so many things! It is going to take a while to sort through it all!

Edited March 1, 2020 by Llywela

[AudienceofOne]

37 minutes ago, Llywela said:

We all knew going in, though, that there was going to be a retcon and it wasn't really going to make sense - right?

Making sense doesn't bother me. It's the way it undermines the foundations of the Doctor's character. There's a tension between people who want the Doctor to be super epically special and those who just want him to be some old grump who wanted to travel the world rather than sit at home in a bureaucracy reading about it. 

I mean, if the Doctor is an immortal trans-dimensional being whose life is constantly being rewritten then everything can be seen to make sense. It doesn't mean I like it.

[PWHCHCH]

26 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Making sense doesn't bother me. It's the way it undermines the foundations of the Doctor's character. There's a tension between people who want the Doctor to be super epically special and those who just want him to be some old grump who wanted to travel the world rather than sit at home in a bureaucracy reading about it. 

I’m definitely in the latter camp. 
 

I thought the Moffatt era was bad enough trying to make the Doctor extra special, but this is next level. 

[Lokiberry]

I don't know how i feel about this. There were a lot of things I didn't like. I can accept that the Doctor has had more regenerations then we know about, but I don't like the fact that she's not Gallifreyan. I don't like that the Master wiped out the Time Lords because he doesn't feel special anymore. I don't like that Barristan Selmy had to deus ex machina his way in to finish the job because the Doctor wouldn't push the button because destroying a threat to every living thing in the universe would "turn her into the Master". 

I don't like the "fam". I'm sorry, I tried, but none of them have connected with me. I know people get tired of the Most Special Girls in All of Time and Space, but with the exception of SnowLeaf, they've all worked pretty well as companions. 

Well, I guess Brain of Morbius has been explained. I guess Tecteun is the Other, alongside Rassilon and Omega. 

My head hurts. 

 

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

I don't like that Barristan Selmy had to deus ex machina his way in to finish the job because the Doctor wouldn't push the button because destroying a threat to every living thing in the universe would "turn her into the Master". 

I actually HATE this and it's a really common trope in, particularly, the American superhero genre. The writer enables the lead to be a snowflake while ensuring the dirty work happens anyway. RTD pulled this off in the first season but only just. If the Doctor's morality is enabled only by having somebody else come in to pull the trigger for her than the Doctor's morality is meaningless. 

This is like Clark Kent refusing to kill somebody but that person dying in the next scene anyway or Chuck refusing to carry a gun but knowing that Casey or Sarah will do the killing for him. 

In this the Doctor refused to press the button but ten seconds later merely handed the button to somebody else and walked away. The idea she's now somehow free of that act is laughable. 

[Sakura12]

I figured there'd be a lot of feelings about this episode. Since I have no connection to Classic Who, I liked it. The writers before made the Doctor super special even Classic Who writers wanted the Doctor to be more than. So this just continues it. I don't mind that the Doctor is not Gallifreyan, because if she's from a different dimension I'm interested in her trying to find where she is from. Those light things from the premiere were from another dimension maybe they are from the Doctor's real dimension. 

If that's the last we've seen of the current companions, I'd have to laugh since she just dropped them of letting them think she died. Of course I guess it's better than most of them get. She didn't seem interested in sharing her life with them anyway, might as well let them think she's dead. 

Good old Barristan Selmy always taking one for the team. I just figured the Doctor would do it, but being super special something else would save her. 

What prison is she in. Is River there? Or maybe Jack. I can't wait for the Special and next season. With the Doctor having no regeneration limit this show could continue forever. And hey, she was ginger once. 

[libgirl2]

Not liking this so far. 

[jcin617]

Not sure why the Doctor from an earlier life cycle had a TARDIS shaped like a police box, or why she would have even called herself the Doctor, or when/why they would keep erasing the Doctor’s memories (every 12th regeneration to make them look like a normal Time Lord?)  I suppose I shouldn’t put too much thought into it.

Edited March 2, 2020 by jcin617

[libgirl2]

I'm so disappointed.  The mystery of the Doctor is gone. I would rather Susan was addressed not the origin of the Time Lords. This isn't fun anymore. 

[DanaK]

Well that was a lot, and a lot to process and I'm going to have to rewatch the things I didn't quite get. But I really enjoyed it and it leaves us with a lot more questions. But it seems the Doctor figured that no matter where she came from or what was done to her (assuming the Master was telling her the whole truth), she's still the person she has been for a few thousand years trying to help others. I'm sure some will feel Chibnall massacred the canon, but eh, the Doctor will still likely go adventuring and helping others, which is the main part of the show, but she's also going to have to figure out and reconcile her past and legacy. There's still a lot of mystery to the Doctor

It seemed to have a nice balance between action with the Cybermen and the memory stuff between the Master and the Doctor. And as I've said, I love the chemistry between Jodie and Sacha. The companions managed to figure their way out of their predicament on the ship and reunite with the Doctor, but now they think the Doctor is likely dead. At least Lone Cyberman is dead. He was out of control and getting on my nerves. Of course, now we'll wonder if and how the Master survives

Nice seeing RuthDoc, if only in WhitDoc's head. I guess people will be slow-moing through those memories and faces to see what's all there

I'm not sure I understand where the 2(?) other Tardises came from. Were they just other Time Lords' machines sitting around on Gallifrey? I guess the Doctor reunited with her Tardis on that planet they originally arrived on?

The Doctor is now imprisoned by the Judoon. I guess we'll have to see how she gets out of that, probably in the special in December or January

I'll probably have more to say when I can think of things and processed more, but all in all, a really good season finale. I'm sad that the season is over though and we'll likely have to wait until Fall next year, unless things like the coronoavirus interfere with production. I really enjoyed this season and it really upped the stakes over last season

Edited March 2, 2020 by DanaK

[Sakura12]

How is the mystery gone? We don't know where the Doctor came from and if there are more like her in another dimension. For me they put the Who back in Doctor Who. 

[DanaK]

15 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

How is the mystery gone? We don't know where the Doctor came from and if there are more like her in another dimension. For me they put the Who back in Doctor Who. 

Yeah, there's lots more mystery now

The sad thing is that, as far as we know, the Doctor's home (where she grew up at least) is now presumably fully destroyed, including the Matrix, any remaining Tardis except for the 2 the companions and she took, along with all the bodies of the people. That's an awful thing to have to deal with and live with, but I guess there was no choice. Obviously the Doctor couldn't destroy it because she had to escape, but in-story, her pacifist ways prevented her from pressing the bomb trigger, but she allowed the other guy to do it, which seems almost the same thing

The moment between Yaz and Graham when they thought it was the end was very emotional and great. Graham said a lot of nice things and then Yaz says he's a pretty nice bloke. I liked that both of them were thinking on their feet and coming up with solutions, as nutty as some were. Ryan had some good things to do fighting the Cybermen with Ko Sharmus.

I figured the last humans would just re-populate Gallifrey, which in the light of day was probably too few to do so and of course Gallifrey needed to be destroyed at the end. So it was nice to see them make it to present day with the companions

Edited March 2, 2020 by DanaK

[QuantumMechanic]

I see they canonized the pre-Hartnell doctors seen in “The Brain of Morbius”.

I actually think that aside from the retcon there wasn’t much to the episode. So much exposition dumping. And then the buildup over Loney for all these episodes just for him to get TCE’d.

I did like the scene with Graham and Yaz.

And can we say what a pathetic cop out on pushing the button? Hey Doctor - you don’t get to be free of the moral blame by handing the button to someone who says he’s gonna press it.

That said, that’s a dumbass moral quandary to have, Doctor. You push the damned button there and you don’t fall for the idiotic “you’ll be as bad as me if you press that” spiel.

 

[truther]

2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I actually HATE this and it's a really common trope in, particularly, the American superhero genre. The writer enables the lead to be a snowflake while ensuring the dirty work happens anyway. If the Doctor's morality is enabled only by having somebody else come in to pull the trigger for her than the Doctor's morality is meaningless. 

In this the Doctor refused to press the button but ten seconds later merely handed the button to somebody else and walked away. The idea she's now somehow free of that act is laughable. 

My thoughts exactly.  When you have other people do your dirty work for you, you are still just as culpable.  "But I hired a hit man so I wouldn't have to kill anyone!" isn't a defense that will get you very far.  

I thought the episode was technically sound -- (mostly) well paced, tight, coherent -- but left me scratching my head.  Backstories are generally pointless, because they take away the mystery and, as a result, make things more pedestrian. 

And after two seasons I think it's time to call time on Yaz and Ryan.  Graham I like, and I'd like to see him hook up with what's-her-name the future fugitive.  But the other 2/3s of The Fam have had more than enough time to do something, anything, beyond make a few faces and serve as an occasional plot device and they really haven't.  You could have edited them out of this episode entirely and easily compensated for it.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I figured there'd be a lot of feelings about this episode. Since I have no connection to Classic Who, I liked it. The writers before made the Doctor super special even Classic Who writers wanted the Doctor to be more than. So this just continues it. I don't mind that the Doctor is not Gallifreyan, because if she's from a different dimension I'm interested in her trying to find where she is from. Those light things from the premiere were from another dimension maybe they are from the Doctor's real dimension. 

If that's the last we've seen of the current companions, I'd have to laugh since she just dropped them of letting them think she died. Of course I guess it's better than most of them get. She didn't seem interested in sharing her life with them anyway, might as well let them think she's dead. 

Good old Barristan Selmy always taking one for the team. I just figured the Doctor would do it, but being super special something else would save her. 

What prison is she in. Is River there? Or maybe Jack. I can't wait for the Special and next season. With the Doctor having no regeneration limit this show could continue forever. And hey, she was ginger once. 

I do have a connection to Classic Who (been a fan since the age of 8 ) and... I still liked it.  For one thing, it seems to me that Chibnall does know his Fourth Doctor (some of the stuff mentioned here is heavily derived from two episodes from the mid-70s - The Brain of Morbius and The Deadly Assassin). For another, it does resolve some outstanding questions from decades ago.

And for a third and final thing - the idea of "canon" with regard to Doctor Who has always been a shaky proposition, at best. It's a show about a time-traveling alien who can change his or her appearance. It's always been a show that has been pretty elastic about its own history based on its own history.  The show has retconned its history before and will do so again. Heck, the idea of regeneration was itself a retcon when they recast the role.  

To me, the idea of a retcon, I think, wins or loses on whether or not it works from an emotional stand point, which I think this did. It doesn't take away from the history we've known, it just expands it, IMO. So I'm fine with it. 

[Hatshepsut]

Yeah, I’m not quite sold. I mean, I do like that this gives us a new mystery to unravel over another season or two—what race is the doctor from? What happened to them?  But I’m not crazy about making the doctor so super special. I agree with the Master on that much.
 

Speaking of the Master, I guess it makes some sense that the revelation of the timeless child is a semi plausible reason for the backsliding into crazy evil Master. But it bothers me that it seems to cheapen the history between the Doctor and the Master—like, the Doctor probably had a ton of best friends if they lived so many lives. I prefer them both as the last survivors of Gallifrey, with all the shared history and baggage that that entails. Damnit, I just want those two crazy kids to be friends again! 
 

so do we think the Master is gone for good (haha, as if). I assume that he had some sort of contingency plan, since he deliberately left the death particle thing for the Doctor. 
 

not crazy about the Doctor ending up In a Judoon prison. Give her a little time to process all this shit, huh?

also agree that the tripe of “if you kill me, you become me” is so tired. And letting the old dude do it is hardly any better, morally speaking. I mean, If you’re going to kill your best friend/archnemesis/definitely ex lover you really owe it to them to do it to their face. 

[DanaK]

Given all the past season finales in NewWho that were big events (and especially those that were two parters), I can see why many fans were upset with the Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos last season. I liked it, but this finale is much, much better

I'm curious to see where Chibnall takes things with Series 13.

I think this has been a terrific season overall, but I do agree with the opinions that 3 is too many companions and doesn't give them enough time for their stories. I know many want just 1, but I think 2 would work just fine

[Jenniferbug]

I'm not really sure how to feel about this. The episode felt like it could have been a lot shorter, honestly. I liked this Master mostly, but he was grating here. 

I don't mind that the Doctor had other regeneration. Or I at least expected that, so can shrug my shoulders about it. I don't like that she isn't originally from Gallifrey. I don't like that she didn't regain memories of her past lives via the Matrix. Now we can trip over a new Doctor any time a writer feels like pulling out a gotcha moment. 

I don't understand why the Master was so upset about being lied to and having the Doctor be the reason he can regenerate. It all would have made more sense to me if he had been the Timeless Child, and the continual memory wipes and experimentation had driven him mad. 

Was fully expecting Ko Sharmus to be one of the unknown Doctors. Honestly kind of bummed he wasn't, because now I'm left going "...so he was just some guy who helped other people get through the portal? Wonder how he got there and why he never went through himself". 

If Brendan was the Doctor, I don't understand why he didn't regenerate when he was shot and fell off the cliff. Or why he thought he was human from birth to death. 

Who were the other people in The Division scene on Gallifrey. One was Tectuen, post regeneration right? So was the other the Doctor and the woman was someone else? How do Rassilon and Omega fit in now? Not sure I like their importance being erased instead of worked into this change in canon. 

Really not a fan of all the Time Lords being dead and then Cybermen and then dead again. I'm ok with a time travel Deus ex Machina to fix this someday. 

Still unclear on what the Cyberium is and how it came to be. Or what the point of the Lone Cyberman was and who Ashad had been. 

Also I think I like Ruth Doctor and her potential plot more than I like Jodie as the Doctor so that doesn't help my enjoyment. 

I didn't dislike it. But I'm not feeling pleased with it either. 

[Lantern7]

This was a poster I had made after the airing of "The Name of the Doctor." I believe it applies as my main reaction to "The Timeless Children."

I reckon Chibnall is pushing the envelope as to the Doctor's past. I'll still watch it; I just won't be as upset as others about it, because I want to see where things go. It just feels like something that happens with big-name comic books . . . where they wind up going in a new direction every few years (Jonathan Hickman's recent revamp of X-Men being my "go to" example).

Personally, I thought the Fourth Doctor was fucking with Morbius when the pre-Hartnelll faces were dsiplayed. But that's my head canon, and apparently I was wrong.

I feel bad for the Doctor at the end:

Doctor: (slumping on a chair in her TARDIS): Wow. That was . . . wow. I have so much to process.

Judoon: (materializing) Jo So Bo No Ko!!! Doctor is to be imprisoned immediately!!!

Doctor: Oh, you rhino-headed mothe- (blips out)

(smash cut to . . . )

Doctor: (yelling) You think prison can hold me? You reckon you Elephantman knockoffs can do a "Docshank Redemption" special to me for the holiday season? I WILL GET OUT!!! I INVENTED TOILET WINE, YOU BASTARDS!!!

Regardless on how one reacts to the "most everything you knew about Gallifrey was wrong!" direction, one has to give it up to Jodie. I believe she's been doing a bang-up job in the role, and she's made it her own. Of course, I'll cop out in saying there's no such thing as a "Worst Doctor Ever," even if polls are involved.

And I'm good with "The Fam," at least as a diversion from the usual companion set-up. Aside from wonder when Ryan's condition will rear its head and almost kill him, I've been good with this bunch. And if that makes me less of a fan not to have a strong opinion? So be it.

Note to self . . . re-read the "Supremacy of the Cybermen" crossover Titan Comics did a few years ago, and compare/contrast to the Cyberlords. I think I'd take them more seriously if they didn't have those collars. The Master could have just put the usual insignia of Gallfirey on the chests, but I think he wanted to make them look like proper gits as they took over the universe.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Lantern7

[phalange]

The Doctor is the Timeless Child! I think the origin story of her coming from another dimension and being adopted by an early space-faring Gallifreyan is fascinating. I suspected she might be the Timeless Child, but not that she came through a portal or that her genetics are the foundation for the Time Lords. Since she has unlimited regenerations, I wonder why the leaders chose to cap their own at twelve, unless they couldn’t actually figure out how to make them unlimited. And now that it’s established she has unlimited regenerations, there’ll be no need for some new future explanation of how the Doctor gets yet another set of twelve. 

By far, the coolest scene was the flash of all the previous Doctors as the theme music played. And genuine lol at, “I’m talking to myself again. That’s a good sign.” 

You have to hand it to the Master for being truly diabolical: Time Lord Cybermen who can’t die would definitely spell the end for the universe. The design of them was kinda beautiful, if immortal murderbots can be beautiful. 

Now we know who sent the Cyberium back in time. It makes sense the guardian would want to finish what he started, and well, we all know the Doctor wasn’t going to actually blow herself up. 

It was cool to see the inside of other TARDISs looking very chrome and 60s-ish and that their chameleon circuits made the outsides look like a house and a tree. Poor Doctor; just when she thinks she’s gotten her TARDIS back, she’s locked in a Judoon prison (I assume). I guess she was still wanted for whatever Ruth!Doctor did. It’s sad that Yaz, Graham, and Ryan don’t know what happened to her, but at least they and the other three humans made it back to 21st century Earth. 

[DanaK]

The fact that the Master was so pissed that he destroyed Gallifrey because he had a bit of the Doctor in him (the regeneration ability I guess) and that she was a special being that started it all, is really quite something. It just speaks to the person he really is. I guess he's been jealous of the Doctor all along

And Ashad, the Lone Cyberman. He gets pretty close to preparing to destroy (or convert?) other races and be king of the galaxy, but then the Master comes along, starts yammering about a team up and greater glory and the poor guy suddenly ends up dead in miniature by the Master. He should have just thrown the Master in a cell and ignored his ravings. The Master always fouls up the plans of other people

Both Jodie and Sacha were terrific here. Jodie has been great all season. Brad and Mandip did great stuff trying to figure things out against the Cybermen

It's interesting how opinions are so divided on this episode, though it seemed many more liked it than didn't, but most of the ones who didn't like really didn't like it

Edited March 2, 2020 by DanaK

[tennisgurl]

So when Eleven was being regenerated, it was really just the Time Lord High Council frantically trying to cover their own asses so that the Doctor didnt just regenerate again on their own? That just makes that whole sequence kind of darkly hilarious. 

As for this episode and the big twist...I am going to need to think on it. I am intrigued by where the Doctor really came from, but I dont like the retcon that the Doctor isnt technically Gallifreyan. I think that it just changes too much about the Doctor, and her relationship to her people, for good and for bad, that has so influenced her character for years. Whether she was a foil to her people (she is a well meaning adventurer, while the Time Lords are often high minded isolationists, at least the ruling class) or a savior (when the Doctors all work together to save Gallifrey) or something more complicated (like the whole Hells Bells arc with Twelve) she has always had this complicated relationship with her homeworld and her heritage, and distancing her from that just seems to take something from that. 

It is sure gonna be interesting to see how people react to this...

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Hatshepsut said:

so do we think the Master is gone for good (haha, as if). I assume that he had some sort of contingency plan, since he deliberately left the death particle thing for the Doctor. 

Right after the button was pushed, we heard him say something like, "come this way" (paraphrasing). So I expect he (and perhaps some of the Cybermasters) got away.

When was the last time we had a Dalek-less season?

[DanaK]

I think I might be willing to give this episode a 10 out of 10 and I don't tend to give 10s out so easily, though some episodes I've felt were 9.5

[futurechemist]

Now that the season is over, I'm still wondering what the point of Jack's cameo and the Brendan plot last week were for.  The Time Lord / Division sent the Doctor undercover to Ireland to do something that nobody knows about anymore?  Jack gave the companions a message that was promptly ignored?  I was disappointed that Jack didn't show up this episode.

Did everyone else got the impression that "obsessive" Tecteun kept killing the Child to force them to keep regenerating to learn more about it, right?  Or just me?

Narratively, I'm not sure what the companions contributed to this 2 parter.  They fought Cybermen, mostly unsuccessfully.  They led the Cybership to the Master.  They got to the Doctor slightly too late to help rescue her.  And then they were sent home.

Did we get any clarity on where this Master fits in the timeline?  Because his line that he has no better side to appeal to kind of undermines Missy's entire arc.

All that being said, I loved the scenes with the Doctor and the Master, even if they were exposition heavy. They did have good chemistry together.

[DanaK]

9 minutes ago, futurechemist said:

Now that the season is over, I'm still wondering what the point of Jack's cameo and the Brendan plot last week were for.  The Time Lord / Division sent the Doctor undercover to Ireland to do something that nobody knows about anymore?  Jack gave the companions a message that was promptly ignored?  I was disappointed that Jack didn't show up this episode.

Not sure about Jack, other than it set up a problem for the Doctor to resolve I suppose, to decide what action to take

I think the Master said Brenden was just a cover story, or false memories the Doctor was getting covering over the real truth. I'll have to watch that back to be sure, but at the very least, they were false memories the Doctor was having

[AnimeMania]

I am not sure why the stowaways had to dress up like Cybermen. They had access to the teleporter, why waste time hollowing out Cybermen, just get in the teleporter and go. Wasn't the ship already through the barrier before the stowaways managed to teleport? Did they teleport through the barrier? 

So are they saying that there could be multiple copies of The Doctor out in the universe at any given time and even The Doctor wouldn't know it?

I was hoping that The Doctor would gain the entire knowledge of the Time Lord civilization, including the redacted bits.  

[DanaK]

59 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

I am not sure why the stowaways had to dress up like Cybermen. They had access to the teleporter, why waste time hollowing out Cybermen, just get in the teleporter and go. Wasn't the ship already through the barrier before the stowaways managed to teleport? Did they teleport through the barrier? 

The companions were not through the barrier before the ship landed. Remember Yaz stepping through it while on the planet? I suppose they dressed up like Cybermen so they wouldn't be caught so easily when they were to the planet and probably to more easily help fight the Cybermen on the planet

I find it interesting that of the various season spoilers that I saw (at least the ones I shared here for the most part), maybe half were totally untrue, and quite a bit of the true ones were confused. I guess most show spoilers tend to be 50/50, but quite a few of the true spoilers for the season seemed to be really confused. One big one was that the Master would be back and appear in disguise throughout the season and that happened all in Spyfall. Another was that there would be a plastics episode that would include the Sea Devils. There definitely was an episode about plastic, but no Sea Devils. There were spoilers supposedly from an insider that said Ruth was the Doctor and they were the Timeless Child along with some other things about the last two episodes that were mostly accurate, but they didn't seem to get shared very widely

Edited March 2, 2020 by DanaK

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I actually HATE this and it's a really common trope in, particularly, the American superhero genre. The writer enables the lead to be a snowflake while ensuring the dirty work happens anyway. RTD pulled this off in the first season but only just. If the Doctor's morality is enabled only by having somebody else come in to pull the trigger for her than the Doctor's morality is meaningless. 

This is like Clark Kent refusing to kill somebody but that person dying in the next scene anyway or Chuck refusing to carry a gun but knowing that Casey or Sarah will do the killing for him. 

In this the Doctor refused to press the button but ten seconds later merely handed the button to somebody else and walked away. The idea she's now somehow free of that act is laughable. 

But that's always been the case, how many times was the Dr about to die only for the UNIT boys to turn up and pump the bad guys full of lead? And yes, even great shows like Buffy fall into it but Dr Who does it excessively which was Davros' point in Journey's End. That said it's ot like the Dr hasn't killed in his time, especially the 5th, 6th and 7th vaporising Skaro?

[Llywela]

Okay, I've had the night to think about it. I've also been hit by some really bad news that puts TV shows into perspective, so. I'm still not sure what my overall opinion is, but I'm leaning toward that I mostly enjoyed the episode as an episode, I'm intrigued to see what Chibnall does with the new mythos he's set up here, but I very much don't like that yet another showrunner has decided to mess about with the Doctor's backstory, because it has been done so many times already and they never manage to reconcile all the details, so every time it just ends up getting more and more messy and I wish they wouldn't, that's all.

I had a lot more thoughts, but I'm too distracted by real life stuff to be able to write them all up right now.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 3/1/2020 at 4:53 PM, Lokiberry said:

I don't know how i feel about this. There were a lot of things I didn't like. I can accept that the Doctor has had more regenerations then we know about, but I don't like the fact that she's not Gallifreyan. I don't like that the Master wiped out the Time Lords because he doesn't feel special anymore. I don't like that Barristan Selmy had to deus ex machina his way in to finish the job because the Doctor wouldn't push the button because destroying a threat to every living thing in the universe would "turn her into the Master". 

I don't like the "fam". I'm sorry, I tried, but none of them have connected with me. I know people get tired of the Most Special Girls in All of Time and Space, but with the exception of SnowLeaf, they've all worked pretty well as companions. 

Well, I guess Brain of Morbius has been explained. I guess Tecteun is the Other, alongside Rassilon and Omega. 

My head hurts.

No and I think we now have an opportunity to quietly retire them?

22 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I figured there'd be a lot of feelings about this episode. Since I have no connection to Classic Who, I liked it. The writers before made the Doctor super special even Classic Who writers wanted the Doctor to be more than. So this just continues it. I don't mind that the Doctor is not Gallifreyan, because if she's from a different dimension I'm interested in her trying to find where she is from. Those light things from the premiere were from another dimension maybe they are from the Doctor's real dimension. 

If that's the last we've seen of the current companions, I'd have to laugh since she just dropped them of letting them think she died. Of course I guess it's better than most of them get. She didn't seem interested in sharing her life with them anyway, might as well let them think she's dead. 

Good old Barristan Selmy always taking one for the team. I just figured the Doctor would do it, but being super special something else would save her. 

What prison is she in. Is River there? Or maybe Jack. I can't wait for the Special and next season. With the Doctor having no regeneration limit this show could continue forever. And hey, she was ginger once. 

I actually think this Dr needs her companions more than any other but the fans don't, Clara and Nardo were the last decent companions.  

20 hours ago, jcin617 said:

Not sure why the Doctor from an earlier life cycle had a TARDIS shaped like a police box, or why she would have even called herself the Doctor, or when/why they would keep erasing the Doctor’s memories (every 12th regeneration to make them look like a normal Time Lord?)  I suppose I shouldn’t put too much thought into it.

CLEVER!

20 hours ago, DanaK said:

Yeah, there's lots more mystery now

The sad thing is that, as far as we know, the Doctor's home (where she grew up at least) is now presumably fully destroyed, including the Matrix, any remaining Tardis except for the 2 the companions and she took, along with all the bodies of the people. That's an awful thing to have to deal with and live with, but I guess there was no choice. Obviously the Doctor couldn't destroy it because she had to escape, but in-story, her pacifist ways prevented her from pressing the bomb trigger, but she allowed the other guy to do it, which seems almost the same thing

The moment between Yaz and Graham when they thought it was the end was very emotional and great. Graham said a lot of nice things and then Yaz says he's a pretty nice bloke. I liked that both of them were thinking on their feet and coming up with solutions, as nutty as some were. Ryan had some good things to do fighting the Cybermen with Ko Sharmus.

I figured the last humans would just re-populate Gallifrey, which in the light of day was probably too few to do so and of course Gallifrey needed to be destroyed at the end. So it was nice to see them make it to present day with the companions

Yes, I like that, I always wondered why he/she didn't at some stage? But you now have to wonder if the Cyberman's bomb makes inhabiting it impossible? 

[DanaK]

You know, as a post elsewhere reminded me, now that the far future humans are in present day Sheffield with the companions, we just might get Ravio and Graham as a couple. She was certainly showing some interest on the Cybership

[libgirl2]

8 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

Was fully expecting Ko Sharmus to be one of the unknown Doctors. Honestly kind of bummed he wasn't, because now I'm left going "...so he was just some guy who helped other people get through the portal? Wonder how he got there and why he never went through himself". 

If Brendan was the Doctor, I don't understand why he didn't regenerate when he was shot and fell off the cliff. Or why he thought he was human from birth to death. 

Who were the other people in The Division scene on Gallifrey. One was Tectuen, post regeneration right? So was the other the Doctor and the woman was someone else? How do Rassilon and Omega fit in now? Not sure I like their importance being erased instead of worked into this change in canon. 

 

I thought he would turn out to be a Doctor too.

So what gives with Brendan. Is he a Time Lord, the Doctor. I was confused. And if he was does that make the Doctor a Cyberman.

Yes what about Rassilon and Omega.

Sorry no question marks. Its not working on my PC and its too early to figure something out.

[jcin617]

I think Brendan was just a representation of the Doctor’s life in their memory - being found as a child, growing up, becoming a Time Lord secret agent, then having their memory wiped.

Thinking more about it, having previous cycles calling themselves the Doctor is even dumber from a story point - any Time Lord who knew them (like the one who was chasing the Doctor with the Jadoon) would know their name and might find it a little odd when our Doctor comes alongs and calls themself the same thing.

Edited March 2, 2020 by jcin617

[Suzysite]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

So what gives with Brendan. Is he a Time Lord, the Doctor. I was confused. And if he was does that make the Doctor a Cyberman.

Brendan was never a Cyberman.   He's not the half-finished Lone Cyberman.   Brendan is just a construct of the Doctor's true origin story where he was found as a child, brought up, and mind wiped... probably over and over.

And also, if he's a cover story stored in the Doctor's subconscious, then it makes a lot of sense why the TARDIS chose to disguise itself as a police box all these years. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Suzysite

[Chaos Theory]

The show had to give a better reason for the continued regenerations beyond twelve besides “we said so” and “don’t think about it”.   The Doctor is the Timeless Child does this elegantly and also sets up a mystery as to what if anything it actually means.   Besides the Doctor has always been special.   Whatever your definition of “special” means.  The Doctor is both that and more then that.  Plus what I like about Doctor Who is that it can play around with cannon all it wants because it can write  it all back in by circling back.    

[gail56]

So the Doctor is not Gallifreyan? Then why does she have 2 hearts? Presumably her DNA is the same as the others or she or someone else would have discovered long ago that she isn't one of them? Or are we supposed to believe her DNA was used to change the entire DNA of everyone on Gallifrey?

This retcon does give more story to tell but don't like that they changed her into an entirely different alien.

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by gail56

[Eulipian 5k]

15 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I don't like that Barristan Selmy had to deus ex machina his way in to finish the job because the Doctor wouldn't push the button because destroying a threat to every living thing in the universe would "turn her into the Master". 

 I thought the hesitation was that she would be killing herself. Ko Shamus (sp?) resolved the old, old, trope from forever, of the hero sacrificing them-self for the others because the remote /auto pilot/auto destruct doesn't work; (wasn't that just in Praxaeus , but the Doctor swooped in to save the husband?)

What confused me was:

• was the death particle supposed to kill all organic life everywhere, or just on one planet?
• How'd the Judoon get into the TARDIS? For that matter, how did Donna (the runaway Bride) get into the TARDIS?

[AncientNewbie]

I liked it. As much as a continuity hawk as I am for so many other genre shows, this one is more a daytime soap to me where the endless deaths-but-not, stolen DNA tests and suddenly discovered siblings have a spacey wacey twist to them. I'm more bothered by the Doctor flipping the sonic to her cuffed hands a couple eps ago than the big reveal. It opens some more plot doors and gives a Doctor or two some scenery to chew until the next big retcon. 

[Eulipian 5k]

11 hours ago, Hatshepsut said:

But I’m not crazy about making the doctor so super special. I agree with the Master on that much.

The Doctor has been President of Earth, President of Gallifrey, , destroyed Gallifrey, saved it, killed all the Daleks, and has re-booted the entire Universe, but being the Timeless Child makes them too special? Isn't that why the Doctor has their own tee vee show?

[Chaos Theory]

Besides like it or not The Doctor has always been an unreliable narrator.    

[DavidJSnyder]

2 hours ago, Suzysite said:

Brendan was never a Cyberman.   He's not the half-finished Lone Cyberman.   Brendan is just a construct of the Doctor's true origin story where he was found as a child, brought up, and mind wiped... probably over and over.

And also, if he's a cover story stored in the Doctor's subconscious, then it makes a lot of sense why the TARDIS chose to disguise itself as a police box all these years. 

Why is the Doctor's subconscious Irish?  Is it because people keep asking him if Gallifrey is in Ireland?  https://imgur.com/r/DoctorWhumour/yODhBn3