S03.E08: A Jewish Girl Walks Into the Apollo...

[MerBearHou]

I just got a chance to binge this season over a few days.  This finale really hurt -- I felt such pain for Shy who had been nothing but kind to Midge and truly given her a massive break in exposure and finances.  I could barely listen to what she was saying onstage because I could just feel how this would hurt Shy -- in many ways -- and especially in those times.  I kept thinking "no, Midge, just stop" but it was a runaway train for her and her mouth.  We've grown to be so very fond of Shy and oh, I love his voice and the stunning performance scenes.  Yes, I absolutely saw Johnny Mathis in him all along and knew that keeping the secret was paramount to Shy's career.  

Susie and losing the money -- again, just crushing and wow, Alex Borstein was aces (pun kind of intended). 

Loved seeing Benjamin / Zachary Levi again. 

I'm in the camp that enjoys every scene with Abe and Rose.  Those two actors have such chemistry and do so many tiny things in their scenes together.  I have to rewatch to first watch Tony Shaloub and then rewind to watch Marin Hinkle.  Their plights are always entertaining to me. 

Coveting the Maisels' home in Queens.  Just so gorgeous. 

I'm also in the small, unpopular camp of liking Joel.  He is appealing to me.  Yes, his weakness is women (I really, really do not care for Mei but it's probably the actress) but I think he's a decent guy inside who's trying to grow up and be a better man.  When Susie said that he'd always be in love with Midge and everyone knew it -- what a scene.  Joel / Michael Zegan's body language and personality are appealing to me and I can see why Midge fell for him.

Will be eager, eager for Season 4 to see how Miriam's money and career woes play out, especially now that she appears to have committed to buying her old apartment back.

[athousandclowns]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:49 AM, MerBearHou said:

I just got a chance to binge this season over a few days.  This finale really hurt -- I felt such pain for Shy who had been nothing but kind to Midge and truly given her a massive break in exposure and finances.  I could barely listen to what she was saying onstage because I could just feel how this would hurt Shy -- in many ways -- and especially in those times.  I kept thinking "no, Midge, just stop" but it was a runaway train for her and her mouth.  We've grown to be so very fond of Shy and oh, I love his voice and the stunning performance scenes.  Yes, I absolutely saw Johnny Mathis in him all along and knew that keeping the secret was paramount to Shy's career.  

Susie and losing the money -- again, just crushing and wow, Alex Borstein was aces (pun kind of intended). 

Loved seeing Benjamin / Zachary Levi again. 

I'm in the camp that enjoys every scene with Abe and Rose.  Those two actors have such chemistry and do so many tiny things in their scenes together.  I have to rewatch to first watch Tony Shaloub and then rewind to watch Marin Hinkle.  Their plights are always entertaining to me. 

Coveting the Maisels' home in Queens.  Just so gorgeous. 

I'm also in the small, unpopular camp of liking Joel.  He is appealing to me.  Yes, his weakness is women (I really, really do not care for Mei but it's probably the actress) but I think he's a decent guy inside who's trying to grow up and be a better man.  When Susie said that he'd always be in love with Midge and everyone knew it -- what a scene.  Joel / Michael Zegan's body language and personality are appealing to me and I can see why Midge fell for him.

Will be eager, eager for Season 4 to see how Miriam's money and career woes play out, especially now that she appears to have committed to buying her old apartment back.

A thousand hearts. 

I was so uncomfortable during her performance regarding Shy I almost fast forwarded through it.  It was just cruel and a slap in the face even if it was done today.  
Wasn’t clear if the apartment was paid for but I thought/felt that it would not go through because she gambled her money away. 

[ShortyMac]

On 12/10/2019 at 3:12 PM, xaxat said:

I'm going to miss Reggie/Sterling K. Brown. (And Carol, the bassist.)

Finally got around to watching this. A great show. I love Alex Bornstein here. 

A goof in this episode. Carol had been playing left-handed in all of the others, then, suddenly, she's playing right-handed. I noticed that right away.

[BetyBee]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:11 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One thing the season finale did a great job with was reminding me how gorgeous the costumes are.

I cracked up when Midge's friends at the diner didn't even try to hide that they were listening to every word of her conversation with Benjamin. I'm glad he finally got to have that last conversation with her so he could get some closure.

As soon as Reggie told a panicking Midge to talk about Shy, I knew no good would come of it. I was surprised that a furious Shy didn't fire her immediately when she walked off stage.

The costumes are amazing!  The storylines, however, are recycled.

I too knew that Midge would out Shy. She kind of skirted the issue, but she did cross a line and deserved to be fired. Why hasn't she learned by now that she needs to fictionalize a bit (like Phyllis Diller and Fang)? I know it makes for more drama in the story, but it's not really plausible that a smart woman like Midge would repeat the same mistakes. I also find it hard to buy that she wouldn't have a set ready for the Apollo. We're supposed to believe that she just riffs a stream of consciousness that happens to be hilarious. Not likely. I think what the writers are going for is that Midge is very avant garde, like a female Lenny Bruce, minus the drug use. 

I think the arson wasn't necessary to the story and the fact that it's a serious crime makes it not funny. When they were sitting in the boat joking about their felony, I couldn't help but wonder what if someone gets killed as a result? That's quite likely with a massive fire like that - a firefighter, a neighbor, someone they didn't know was in the house. It's just not funny to me. 

I'll still be back next year. 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I think the arson wasn't necessary to the story and the fact that it's a serious crime makes it not funny. When they were sitting in the boat joking about their felony, I couldn't help but wonder what if someone gets killed as a result? That's quite likely with a massive fire like that - a firefighter, a neighbor, someone they didn't know was in the house. It's just not funny to me. 

Oddly, the fire spreading and destroying someone else's home or killing someone didn't occur to me until I just read your post. It's a valid point, and I've lived in a fire-prone environments,  and so I should have thought of it. 
But I guess because it was Suzy I was mildly amused and assumed the only thing bad that could happen would be Suzy getting convicted of arson and Midge not getting her money. 
But now that I think about it further, Suzy living in a low-rent place in the NYC area would mean a whole bunch of tinder-dry buildings, likely not up to code, with only the smallest of alleys between them, which would provide updraft for the fire. 
😨

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Oddly, the fire spreading and destroying someone else's home or killing someone didn't occur to me until I just read your post. It's a valid point, and I've lived in a fire-prone environments,  and so I should have thought of it. 
But I guess because it was Suzy I was mildly amused and assumed the only thing bad that could happen would be Suzy getting convicted of arson and Midge not getting her money. 
But now that I think about it further, Suzy living in a low-rent place in the NYC area would mean a whole bunch of tinder-dry buildings, likely not up to code, with only the smallest of alleys between them, which would provide updraft for the fire. 
😨

True, but the house she burned was on the water front, and fairly separated from other houses, as I recall.

It didn't bother me, because very little on the show is true to life and we have a phrase in my house "eez fantasy show" that we live by for most shows, except those which are supposed to be gritty reflections of real life.

Plus I saw it as somewhat of a Viking funeral and/or ritual cleansing for both her mother and the past she and her sister endured.

[Kirkydee]

Ok, I'm gonna mention something that no one else has.  I believe there are very few, if any boxing fans on here.  I'm also gonna assume this is a predominantly female board. 

The fight Susie and Reggie was listening to was (presumably) the heavyweight championship fight between Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansson which took place June 1960.  What struck me as odd that it appeared in the daytime.  NO fight, especially a championship fight would be in the daytime.

FYI-this fight was a rematch.  Johansson knocked out Patterson in the first fight and Patterson returned the favor this time.  As I googled to confirm some if this data, it said Johansson trained at Grossingers in the Catskills in 59!!

[Dez]

I gotta know who was that band playing I'm Shakin' at Joel's club?  I have looked everywhere for that credit.

Dez.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Dez

[mrseedplanter]

On 12/19/2019 at 4:03 PM, kbott925 said:

I was happy with the ending. The set backs are all part of it. Things come easy for Midge already, so any little problem she has I welcome. I was really happy when the doctor called her out because she deserved it. I don't want them together, but there was literally nothing wrong with him and she just dropped him like a hot potato. 

That's a great way to look at it. I didn't want Midge to marry Benjamin. I prefer her to get back with Joel down the road. It was a great cliffhanger to end the season as they had us all believing next season would be in Europe. Now she has to start all over and has no clue that Susie squandered her money. The worst part was Midge jumping the gun and getting her old apartment back, having to move everything out of Moishe's house. What a mess. Gosh I love this show lol. Rachel is my new favorite actress... I think when all is set and done I'll have her up there with Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon. She is that good.

[twilightzonefan]

On 12/9/2019 at 6:42 AM, Carolina Girl said:

The one scene I found interesting in light of the final scene was during her departure and asking her mother what her problem is with her career in comedy, Rose tells Midge, essentially, that her act seems to be based on her holding everyone important in her life up to ridicule.   And in fact, it is this that gets her fired from the tour.  It's a fine line, and Midge crossed it.  Also this is 1959.  Being outed was something that could literally kill someone's career.  And Midge DID have to know that people didn't know Shy was gay - remember Reggie telling her that all the neighborhood women were bringing their daughters backstage along with the food?

She was tone deaf in this instance.  REALLY tone deaf.  

What was also interesting is Reggie telling Susie at the end - "one day YOU'll have to do this."  He acknowledges that Midge is going to be big.  

Not only literally killing someone's career, but literally getting someone killed.  Midges' privilege leaves her tone death. IMHO, in real life she would not have performed at the Apollo.  She was was not seasoned enough as a comic.

On 12/16/2019 at 12:26 AM, shapeshifter said:

 Yes, with Reggie delivering Shy’s “decision” to fire Midge, we can’t be sure whose idea it was except that clearly Reggie supported it. 
I can see how ridiculing Shy could become a thing and could destroy his career. 
If the character of Shy had been more fully developed, I could see Midge patching things up with him next season, but Reggie was the more 3-dimensional of the 2. IDK. I suppose they could go there. 

She deserved to be fired, no matter who made the decision.  Her routine was completely out of line!

[Dobian]

On 12/10/2019 at 11:48 PM, CatWarmer said:

But in defense of Midge's Apollo routine - yes, she had a history of going too far but that was early in her career.  She's played some major venues, was a polished performer, and I think did not cross the line.  She probably wasn't even consciously thinking of his sexual orientation.  She was just riffing on the things she was comfortable with - clothes, makeup, travel, etc.   Plus at that time it was very common for male comedians to play gay and cross dress and swish and such - it was always taken as a joke.  Shy had a reputation as a ladies man and no one questioned that.  If the Apollo theater audience had though Midge was actually revealing Shy as homosexual, they would have been aghast, not rolling with laughter.

Yeah by even yesterday's standards that routine was totally tame, and the jokes could even be construed as just teasing a guy who everyone thinks is straight.  I don't think she was ridiculing Shy in the slightest, she was just poking fun in a good-natured way. You knew what direction the plot was headed, though, as soon as Reggie started selling her on talking about Shy in her routine.  Even before that scene, I was wondering what kind of jokes she was going to tell to that audience.  The whole Jewish divorcee and mother bit wouldn't have gotten a whole lot of laughs.

Reggie was right when he corrected Midge that Shy wasn't her friend.  A lot of celebrities are like that.  They're a friend when they need someone for emotional support, like when Midge helped Shy on his boat.  But they don't give in return.  Midge might have crossed a line in Shy's eyes, but in the end he was the asshole.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Dobian

[Old Man Neil]

On 2/6/2020 at 9:27 PM, Dez said:

I gotta know who was that band playing I'm Shakin' at Joel's club?  I have looked everywhere for that credit.

Could it be The Blasters? 

It's mentioned in the comments section here. 

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/12/8985445/marvelous-mrs-maisel-season-3-every-song-soundtrack

[aradia22]

Is it just me or was the filming at the beginning of the episode terrible? The lighting was too dim and the way the camera panned made it impossible to focus. If it lasted longer, it could have been nauseating.

The opening fight between Joel and Midge was realistic but stupid. What did she think was going to happen? Either they somehow make more money to hire a nanny who can take Ethan to school or they enroll him somewhere else. Arguing with Joel doesn't change that.

Joel's monologue to the basement casino was endless. Jesus... no one cares.

If that hadn't been Eric William Morris, I would have been madder about that terrible white blues band. THAT'S Joel's idea of entertainment?

I do not buy that this young crowd at an apparently trendy nightclub is laughing this heartily at Midge's lame mom humor. 

Watching Midge wander around the factor I thought, wouldn't it make so much sense to introduce a character aside from Archie and Joel's parents and Mrs. Moskowitz who is really tied to this world? I get that they don't want to give up this location but right now it's like Columbia was for Abe. I have no idea what the function of it is in the story and it's not being utilized well. Most if not all of the factory scenes could be referred to in throwaway dialogue from another location. But it's such a great set that it should be used. Like, introduce a model or a fashion designer or a seamstress as a character. 

Are we to believe that Midge made enough money from going on tour with Shy to make a reasonable offer on the old apartment (and not a heavily discounted offer because she's dealing with her ex-father in law)?

Oh, yay! It was nice they included Darius de Haas (the real singing voice for Shy) on the show in the barbershop scene.

He doesn't show up a lot but Sterling's character has depth. And I give the writers barely any credit for that. It's the actor and his performance. 

If that tea room that Rose always goes to is a real place and not a set, someone please let me know so I can go to there. 

WHY does Rose keep going back to Benjamin? As much as I love Zachary Levi, the only interesting plotline for season 4 so far is Rose becoming a professional matchmaker (who charges money). What will it take for her to realize this???

"You know, you won't be this handsome forever." XD

Miriam's explanation to Benjamin conveniently left out the whole having sexing with Joel thing. She's such a BS protagonist sometimes. I'm glad another character finally got to call her out for valid reasons and it stuck. 

While she was within her right to go to Forest Hills and chew out her mom for interfering, that shifting blame doesn't erase all the terrible things that Miriam did. 

Oh, good. Rose DID finally realize she should be a professional matchmaker.

Glad Marcus was realistic. I miss these characters bringing our Mary Sue back down to earth.

Miriam is an idiot. She really thought "talk about Shy" meant make jokes about him being vain and effeminate? How oblivious is she? Knowing how painful this is for him, the danger he's in... why would she even think about joking on that block let alone two houses down?

Damn. I really thought for a second that when Suzy went to Joel, she was heading off disaster. But she really did throw away at least some of Midge's money on her gambling addiction. Imagine if Suzy hadn't had a crisis of conscience. Midge is an idiot. For all her talk of independence from men, she's acting like a child with Suzy and living with her ex-in laws. So how is she grown up again?

Miriam's all cream outfit was gorgeous.

This is like Sophie Lennon all over again but without malice. Of course I don't feel bad for Midge if she's going to be an idiot. This is a problem entirely of her own making no matter how she wants to pawn it off onto Reggie. She might as well have been roasting Shy. There was no world in which those jokes were appropriate about someone in the closet. 

[aradia22]

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So, was that their way of putting the nail in the coffin of midge’s and Benjamin, our a way to give us hope?  

Weirdly, I thought it left the door open simply because they kept bringing back Zachary Levi as a guest when they could have just completely left him out of this season. Also, they refused to commit to him dating someone else. 

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I was pissed that she never gave him a chance. She really was not into Dr. Hotness and he honestly deserves better.

I'll take him! Honestly though, I feel like they wrote him as the perfect representation of the life Midge could have. Joel wasn't a good enough lure back to domesticity. So here's a wealthy, handsome Jewish doctor who even gets her sense of humor and isn't threatened by her. They gave her a f*ckable redwood as a perfect fiance and she threw him away like trash. But at least he got to speak up for himself and be a human being with feelings this episode and not just a plot device. 

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The one scene I found interesting in light of the final scene was during her departure and asking her mother what her problem is with her career in comedy, Rose tells Midge, essentially, that her act seems to be based on her holding everyone important in her life up to ridicule.   And in fact, it is this that gets her fired from the tour. 

I zone out a little during her sets lately but it feels like Midge takes a lot of shots at other people. There's a little bit of self-deprecating humor but it's usually about her being a bad mother. She doesn't really mine her own vulnerabilities. And as for speaking truth to power? Well, that idea died a quick death. 

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I like to think that given Midge keeps doing this, it gives you a nice insight into who she really is.  No personal relationship is sacrosanct for her.  She will use someone as fodder for her act, if she thinks it will get her a laugh, regardless of the consequences.  I also think she truly believes she can just "cute" her way out of any negative reaction, or perhaps thinks her talent is enough to get away with it. 

I think that's called being an entitled a**hole. It's not just that she talks about her personal life but she's rarely the butt of the joke. To take an example from this episode, Wanda Sykes manages to do stand up that isn't just taking shots at other people. 

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So this episode makes me wonder...have we just had a whole story leading up to us realizing that Midge is kind of a selfish jerk? It was always kind of there, in a background "oh yeah that seemed kind of mean but Midge is so cute!" kind of way, like her tossing a beach-ball at the swimmers after her night hanging with Lenny, or her ragging on her kids or ignoring them, but they seemed to be really going hard on her lacking in empathy or just foresight lately. 

I hope so. Because if this is just supposed to be a girl power story, the writers are REALLY missing the mark. 

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There was a scene in an earlier episode this season when Susie told her that she was representing Sophie.  Midge jumps into the conga line and shoves a woman out of the way (I think she was a black woman).  That's how Midge is, "Get out of my way, it's all about me."  

There are at least two times she shoved a black woman out of her way this season. I took note of them... probably in those episode threads. 

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Midge knew the risk for Shy but nevertheless leveraged that information to get some cheap laughs on stage. That is despicable and speaks volumes about her character. I don't think Midge was clueless about it, she is just amoral in that regard. She uses whatever information comes her way as a punchline in her act when it suits her without regard for the human cost. 

Yup. Also, this wasn't a huge make or break moment for her. She was just uncomfortable about her race. Shy wasn't going to fire her if she did a bad job. She could have done her standard material and taken the L. But she didn't. And yes, Reggie encouraged her but as a professional she should have A) riffed on a different subject or B) known that this wasn't the right time to riff and just stuck to her set. 

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I wish Midge had reminded Rose that it wasn't Abe who blew up her trust fund.  It was all Rose.  Yeah, Abe blew up their life by quitting his job without even consulting her, but I don't recall Rose reaching out to Abe to ask him if he was cool with her cutting off the trust. 

Does Midge know that? I forget what Rose said when she came back from Oklahoma. Anyway, I'm still salty that she didn't fight for her portion of her inheritance. Along with the matchmaking, I hope that's part of season 4. An empty moral victory is not my idea of a woman standing up for herself. 

[aradia22]

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What really pisses me off is the show runners think they can force the issue. They can WRITE him into fan supporting him. [...] Romance? He sucks. Anger? He sucks. Leading man schtick? Sucks. Charm and all those endless flashbacks to when Joel and Midge met in college? MEH!

LOL. Harsh, but true. 

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With the right actor the show runners wouldn't have to do any rehab on Joel. We could see it in the performance. He feels eclipsed by his stunner of a wife but truly loves her and is coming to recognize his own attributes and strengths. 

All the characters suffer from this clunky writing where they just announce things to the audience as though we're too stupid to figure out what they're thinking/feeling or why a moment is meaningful. But yeah, they go overboard with Joel in a way that makes the actor seem incompetent. I contrast this with Reggie who could have been a flatter character but Sterling K. Brown was too good for that to happen. 

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I always thought it strange that Midge didn't even entertain the idea of balancing marriage and work given that Benjamin had been supportive of her career all along. 

This is one of the show's problems with female empowerment. I won't even call it feminism, because it's not. The show pretends it's about how hard it is for a woman in a man's world but Midge is a woman who greatly benefits from living within a patriarchal system. The show wanted to take the shortcut that all men are the same and Benjamin would have been like Joel. So I'm glad he called her out on her BS. It wasn't about giving up domesticity for her career. He never asked her to. She made her own selfish choices. And even then, she couldn't own up to having sex with Joel before leaving for the tour. 

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She didn't really have to take care of anyone but herself. Benjamin, to her, was fun. But if he was permanent - regardless of how supportive he was - she would feel like she'd have to loop him in on her professional decisions. Given the way the spousal relationships were viewed in those days.

I think this is closer to the truth. She wasn't afraid Benjamin would want her to stay home and be a Stepford wife. From what we know about the character, he's attracted to Midge because she's "not like other girls." But she would have to care about someone else's opinions. She's selfish and self-centered. She wasn't ready for a real relationship again. It wasn't that she would be second banana. It's that she would have to care about another person. And she only cares about herself. 

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Why did Imogene decide to go to school? 

I didn't understand how we were supposed to read that. Is Imogene not going to take Archie back? Is she going to take him back but be his secretary at work so she'll stop worrying about him cheating? Is she going to take him back but tell him to stay home with the kids while she works? Is she going to take him back but be a secretary so she'll have an income and won't have to worry about him leaving her in the lurch (though I highly doubt a secretary's salary in 1960-whatever is going to support 3 children)? It would have been clearer to me if Imogene had picked something like Midge or Rose that pointed to a specific ambition or skill set. 

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It was the phrase gay men identified themselves with to each other, specifically because it was not known to your average Joe. So accidentally telling a straight guy that you were "a friend of Dorothies" would only get you a bewildered look or a "do you mean Dorothy so-and-so?" instead of a lynching if you told them that you were a homosexual.

I think this is a point where what the writers know is not necessarily the same as what would have been true for the time period. They do as much research as they want to and the rest is hand-waved away. I don't think Midge was making a gay allusion but the joke about Shy clicking his heels doesn't make sense as a joke without that layer. The original joke does not say anything about Shy's level of privilege as a celebrity. The set up is that Midge has to go through all this hassle to get home but Shy can just click his heels and wish to be home. That doesn't make sense. Like, replace the end of that joke with yeah, and Shy just walks through the wardrobe back from Narnia. 

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Or, in a perfect world....Joel + Midge, Mei + Dr. Benjamin.

Now there's an idea...

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I think the thing that has most blown me away about this season, and this ep in particular, is the way that it's taking ASP's past genuine weak spots and hiding things in them in plain sight. GG was just atrocious on race and sexuality. Well. No, the main show was blind. The Netflix season was *terrible*. But... She not only learned from that but she's using the low expectations of her on those topics as camoflauge. 

YMMV but I think this show is still pretty terrible on those issues. To me the attempt is there but it's half-hearted and unsuccessful.

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I'm in the camp that enjoys every scene with Abe and Rose.  Those two actors have such chemistry and do so many tiny things in their scenes together.  I have to rewatch to first watch Tony Shaloub and then rewind to watch Marin Hinkle.  Their plights are always entertaining to me. 

As silly as the material they get is, they make it work. They are unquestionably two of the best actors on the show. I wish they could get more good material to sink their teeth into. Marin's work as Rose this season is the reason Rose as a matchmaker is the top reason I'm returning for season 4 (well, and the costumes). 

[Old Man Neil]

On 1/4/2020 at 10:28 AM, Clanstarling said:

I think the portrayal of a black super star, who cannot stay in many of the hotels he plays, and who needs to stay hidden while in the spotlight, and is subject to being beaten when he does step out, is pretty complex in and of itself.

This was written in response to a couple of my posts that were critical of the portrayal of Shy Baldwin. I thought that the writers could have done more with him, and I still think so. 

But what I didn't say, for some reason, maybe I just took it for granted, is that my criticism had a context. The context is that I think Shy Baldwin is a fascinating character. I loved the scene when Midge met him in the ladies room. And I really liked the snap decision he made to hire her. That showed a decisiveness, an executive personality in addition to the musical talent. With just a couple of strokes, the Palladinos created a fully realized character. 

They managed to do what Mad Men never did, populate their world with an African American in a position of power. I hope we see more of Shy and Reggie in future seasons. 

 

[Clanstarling]

15 minutes ago, Old Man Neil said:

This was written in response to a couple of my posts that were critical of the portrayal of Shy Baldwin. I thought that the writers could have done more with him, and I still think so. 

But what I didn't say, for some reason, maybe I just took it for granted, is that my criticism had a context. The context is that I think Shy Baldwin is a fascinating character. I loved the scene when Midge met him in the ladies room. And I really liked the snap decision he made to hire her. That showed a decisiveness, an executive personality in addition to the musical talent. With just a couple of strokes, the Palladinos created a fully realized character. 

They managed to do what Mad Men never did, populate their world with an African American in a position of power. I hope we see more of Shy and Reggie in future seasons. 

 

As I recall, you did leave me (anyway) with that impression/context after our initial couple of exchanges. I agree with you regarding the way his character is quickly fully realized.

What I have found with my own posts, is that taking context for granted doesn't work too well, as some either don't understand it, or sometimes read too quickly and miss it and simply react. I've guilty of it on both ends of the interactions upon occasion.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Clanstarling

[Old Man Neil]

Yeah, I just wanted to reinforce the point. I think he's a great fictional character. 

[Sweetleigh]

Just finished watching the season, and I have a question.   At some point didn’t Abe pay Moishe for 1/2 of Midge and Joel’s apartment?

Am I remembering this wrong?

I kept thinking, as Abe and Rose we’re moving out of their place that they did not own, that they might work out an arrangement with Moishe since they co-owned Midge’s old place.  

Anybody else remember this?
 

[chessiegal]

My memory is Midge & Joel's apartment was a wedding gift from just the Maisels.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, chessiegal said:

My memory is Midge & Joel's apartment was a wedding gift from just the Maisels.

That's what I remember.  Abe tried to get Moishe to take a deal to co-own it, but then he saw Midge reject Joel's attempt to come back, and that story went away.

[HollyGoLitely333]

On 3/2/2020 at 6:11 PM, Dobian said:

On 12/11/2019 at 2:48 AM, CatWarmer said:

But in defense of Midge's Apollo routine - yes, she had a history of going too far but that was early in her career.  She's played some major venues, was a polished performer, and I think did not cross the line.  She probably wasn't even consciously thinking of his sexual orientation.  She was just riffing on the things she was comfortable with - clothes, makeup, travel, etc.   Plus at that time it was very common for male comedians to play gay and cross dress and swish and such - it was always taken as a joke.  Shy had a reputation as a ladies man and no one questioned that.  If the Apollo theater audience had though Midge was actually revealing Shy as homosexual, they would have been aghast, not rolling with laughter.

Yeah by even yesterday's standards that routine was totally tame, and the jokes could even be construed as just teasing a guy who everyone thinks is straight.  I don't think she was ridiculing Shy in the slightest, she was just poking fun in a good-natured way.

I can see these points. As I was watching her act unfold, I thought okay, she's really on the line, just reel it back...okay, so she's making him seem like kind of a rags to riches story to the hometown audience talking about his closet. But then when she said "Judy Garland heels" my heart sank. 😞 But then I thought hey MIdge gets away with murder all over town. Maybe this will be a big boo boo and they'll hash it out and move on. Ugh she looked so proud of herself and satisfied when she left the backstage area she was watching Shy's first song from. She thought she nailed the toughest crowd and that the next day, Shy would give her a knowing look and nudge nudge and they'd be girlfriends and laugh about it, but she had no idea how damaging her act would be to him personally. I don't even think this audience is taking the leap over to "shy is gay" but it's how Shy felt watching it that must have been the most gut punching betrayal. Ugh, she wanted so badly to connect with that audience and she forgot to protect Shy in the meantime. I found the final scene to be gut wrenching. That we are also realizing that Susie has lost all of Midge's money and has no safety net while Midge is meanwhile purchasing a home based on a contract that is void...bah. I was legit depressed and it's even worse that we have no idea how long it will be until they can get production back together and when we'll get season 4. It could be a year! 

Other randoms: 

• That whole speech Joel gave at the top of the stairs to the gambling hall crowd? I'm fairly positive that the Chinese community in 1960 Manhattan wouldn't have rushed to Mai to get her the message from Joel. Dating outside of the community is difficult for older generations TODAY. I found that whole scene to be pretty ridiculous. 
• I really like Benjamin in that old school surgery uniform. Rawr. 
• It's maddening but perfect how Rose is portrayed as insufferable but with that edge of fierceness. Her explanation to Midge why she's meddling and matchmaking (your father is unreliable so I have to do something to keep us afloat) saves her character from being insufferable. 
• Abe's coat looked dirty before he got hit by that first tomato. I feel like production tried to clean his jacket after a failed take. 
• I dislike the Maisels very very much. 

 

[Dobian]

13 hours ago, HollyGoLitely333 said:

As I was watching her act unfold, I thought okay, she's really on the line, just reel it back...okay, so she's making him seem like kind of a rags to riches story to the hometown audience talking about his closet. But then when she said "Judy Garland heels" my heart sank. 😞 But then I thought hey MIdge gets away with murder all over town. Maybe this will be a big boo boo and they'll hash it out and move on. Ugh she looked so proud of herself and satisfied when she left the backstage area she was watching Shy's first song from. She thought she nailed the toughest crowd and that the next day, Shy would give her a knowing look and nudge nudge and they'd be girlfriends and laugh about it, but she had no idea how damaging her act would be to him personally. I don't even think this audience is taking the leap over to "shy is gay" but it's how Shy felt watching it that must have been the most gut punching betrayal. Ugh, she wanted so badly to connect with that audience and she forgot to protect Shy in the meantime. I found the final scene to be gut wrenching. That we are also realizing that Susie has lost all of Midge's money and has no safety net while Midge is meanwhile purchasing a home based on a contract that is void...bah. I was legit depressed and it's even worse that we have no idea how long it will be until they can get production back together and when we'll get season 4. It could be a year! 

Midge will be okay, this is better for her career anyway.  She toured with an A-Lister, honed her skills, and can put that on her resume.  Tom Dreesen opened for Frank Sinatra for years.  He's a funny comedian, but he was always "that guy who opens for Frank Sinatra".  Midge will be a much better comic when she is headlining than opening for someone else.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Dobian

[NYGirl]

Everybody recommended this show to me for weeks and I finally pulled the trigger on Friday.  Of course I was hooked immediately that that's all I watched all weekend.  Well it's not like I have anything else to do!

I can't understand why Midge did what she did with Sophie and now Shy.  It's like she self-destructs.

Too much of both sets of parents the last 2 seasons.  Plus they are so annoying.  Midge's parents seemed to be so intelligent at the beginning and they deteriorated so much.  I couldn't believe Rose would just give up her trust fund like that.  And Abe?  Why didn't he just take the sabbatical instead of quitting , full well knowing that he'd lose the apartment.

I cannot take more than a couple of minutes with Moishe and Shirley..too much work.

And don't get me started on that stupid Sophie Lennon storyline.  It ate up too much time.

And lastly....did anyone notice Joe got rid of that mole under his left eye???  I was mesmerized it in seasons 1 and 2 and then in 3...it vanished!!!!

I like Benjamin.  He could have waited for her for 6 months.  He could have flown to spend a weekend wherever she was.  I can't believe she broke off with him via letter like that.

Midge is incredibly selfish and a user.  Some would describe her as a Jewish American Princess.

I never saw Gilmore Girls so I don't understand the references.

Edited to add:  I can't believe I forgot to mention how much I love the outfits both Rose and Midge wear.  I also love all of the music!

Edited May 4, 2020 by NYGirl

[Blooper]

On 3/2/2020 at 9:18 PM, Old Man Neil said:

Could it be The Blasters? 

It's mentioned in the comments section here. 

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/12/8985445/marvelous-mrs-maisel-season-3-every-song-soundtrack

They literally removed that video from youtube and it is once again NOT mentioned anywhere and I too have been looking all over for it. I just went through that site and looked at all of the 53 video and one is missing, guess which one. *Facepalm! 

[Old Man Neil]

On 5/5/2020 at 11:25 PM, Blooper said:

They literally removed that video from youtube and it is once again NOT mentioned anywhere and I too have been looking all over for it. I just went through that site and looked at all of the 53 video and one is missing, guess which one. *Facepalm! 

That is bizarre. 

[Lunula]

On 12/18/2019 at 2:09 PM, snarktini said:

Midge can be terribly thoughtless. No disagreement there! But I disagree she says horrible things thinking she can get away with them because she's cute/charming/bulletproof. It feels more like recklessness and self-sabotage. She doesn't think at all when she riffs like that. Is there a difference between thoughtlessness and assholery? Maybe not, in effect. She creates a lot of negative impact, which is what matters and can't be waved away, but I don't think she does any of it intentionally. She acts, then thinks.

Perhaps I'm overthinking it, but I feel the writers tried to make it apparent this season that her entire family acts first, then thinks about whatever consequences "happen" to them.

Her father gets fired from Bell Labs, then decides (without consulting his wife) to quit his tenured teaching job at a prestigious university, knowing that by doing so they will also lose their apartment and have no place to live? Then her mother decides, again without consulting anyone, to give up her trust money - the only money they have left to live on - because she gets mad at her family? Then the only viable option left is to live with Joel's parents in Queens? 

Unfortunately for me, instead of making them look reckless/thoughtless, it makes them all look downright stupid. How can people be so insanely out of touch with reality? I understand it's a comedy, which means we're meant to buy some asinine situations without question; however, I cannot get on board with two seemingly intelligent adults both giving up their entire livelihood, shelter and security in the span of what - a week?

And is Midge really also so freaking out of touch with reality that she doesn't learn one tiny lesson after blowing up her friend's wedding reception? I can't imagine a scenario where she, another seemingly intelligent adult, wouldn't know that Shy being gay wasn't a ginormous secret she really shouldn't even hint at to anyone unknown in 1960 (lest they be dragged out into the street and beaten up/killed) - much less an entire audience of adoring fans? 

We binged all three seasons in about a week and I've truly love the concept, characters, writing, etc. - up until S3. While not wholly terrible, I didn't love S3 nearly as much, primarily due to how massively stupid everyone became.  

[Stats Queen]

6 hours ago, Lunula said:

We binged all three seasons in about a week and I've truly love the concept, characters, writing, etc. - up until S3. While not wholly terrible, I didn't love S3 nearly as much, primarily due to how massively stupid everyone became.  

Perfect way to describe season 3. 
 

[shapeshifter]

11 hours ago, Lunula said:

I feel the writers tried to make it apparent this season that her entire family acts first, then thinks about whatever consequences "happen" to them

Excellent point. My family is a lot like that, just not so extreme. ASP does create characters that are caricatures. 

[RedbirdNelly]

Just finished our watch of this season, and we enjoyed it. I watch this show in a whimsical way. Midge is self-centered but I just go with it. I didn't care about the arson because it's not real; just part of the Suzi wacko funny joke.  It's a bit of a cartoon and I find it enjoyable. However, I'm cool that others watch expecting more realism. It's just not my thing with this show.

Even though I don't watch for realism, I did like one real detail they got right (with some assumptions on my part). I loved that Imogene entered the Catherine Gibbs secretarial school. It was a real place. I assume they had multiple locations--since my mom attended in Boston. She was 2nd in her high school class and her goal was to earn a scholarship to CG and she did. I taught myself how to type in 7th grade using her old CG books. It struck me how things how changed that no one was "what? you want to go learn to be a secretary?" whereas today, a girl graduating 2nd in her class would be assumed to go to college. My mom's parents were totally fine with the secretary ambition--and were disappointed when my mom graduated and decided to go to college after all. They wanted her to get a job (she did use her secretarial skills working part-time through college majoring in math). Anyway, I was just kind of "go Imogene!" when she walked through those doors. 

I liked how this ended the season with a number of possible directions for next season. I think Benjamin is a possibility to pop up again. Or not. 

[MissScarlett]

The finale was kind of meh but it does set us up for next season.

I believe a lot of what Midge said could be PR-spun as stars being super particular about their public appearance, expected diva behavior, and so forth. The ruby slippers comment definitely put the nail in the coffin imo. The audience could very clearly draw the line from the ruby slippers to the old "friend of Dorothy" reference, which I believe was a known / popular phrase around the time of Mrs. Maisel. Still, I loved the energy between Shy and Midge. Ugh, I'll miss seeing Shy, Reggie and the gang next season. I'm hoping those crazy kids patch things up. 😞

I'm not a fan of Jane Lynch or the character Sophie Lennon, so i'd be totally fine if they dropped this storyline next season. They probably won't and Sophie Lennon will come crawling back to Susie.

I'm curious if the money-loss from Susie's gambling will be a fore-front issue next season, as I assume Midge may not be able to give Moishe the down payment for the apartment?

I know this isn't a popular opinion BUT... as much as I love Mai, she's basically a shorter version of Midge and so I see her as a rebound. She's beautiful, driven, educated, sassy, funny. Joel definitely has a type. I believe that both Joel and Midge will begin to grow up and this starts them on their paths back toward one another. It's kind of nice to see Joel taking responsibility and not letting the women in his life run it for him. It's also nice seeing Midge realize that life is not meant to be perfect. Not everyone has a fairy tale marriage or fairy tale life and that there are lots of gray areas. 

We see that Midge has to know when to draw the line, a lesson that she's learning slowly in spades after this season. We also know that Midge's independence is more important to her than any relationship at this point. Dr. Benjamin was nice (always love seeing Zachary Levi) but I do see where he could eventually get tired of her being on the road. Also, Joel is a safety net right now. She's revealing all of the imperfections to him and he still loves her. I think this is going to play into how they grow as people and eventually get back together.

With that said, if Joel marries Mai and Midge ends up with the gorgeous Lenny Bruce, I won't be sad about it.

 

 

 

[Kromm]

On 8/14/2020 at 12:30 PM, MissScarlett said:

The finale was kind of meh but it does set us up for next season.

I believe a lot of what Midge said could be PR-spun as stars being super particular about their public appearance, expected diva behavior, and so forth. The ruby slippers comment definitely put the nail in the coffin imo. The audience could very clearly draw the line from the ruby slippers to the old "friend of Dorothy" reference, which I believe was a known / popular phrase around the time of Mrs. Maisel. Still, I loved the energy between Shy and Midge. Ugh, I'll miss seeing Shy, Reggie and the gang next season. I'm hoping those crazy kids patch things up. 😞

I'm not a fan of Jane Lynch or the character Sophie Lennon, so i'd be totally fine if they dropped this storyline next season. They probably won't and Sophie Lennon will come crawling back to Susie.

I'm curious if the money-loss from Susie's gambling will be a fore-front issue next season, as I assume Midge may not be able to give Moishe the down payment for the apartment?

I know this isn't a popular opinion BUT... as much as I love Mai, she's basically a shorter version of Midge and so I see her as a rebound. She's beautiful, driven, educated, sassy, funny. Joel definitely has a type. I believe that both Joel and Midge will begin to grow up and this starts them on their paths back toward one another. It's kind of nice to see Joel taking responsibility and not letting the women in his life run it for him. It's also nice seeing Midge realize that life is not meant to be perfect. Not everyone has a fairy tale marriage or fairy tale life and that there are lots of gray areas. 

We see that Midge has to know when to draw the line, a lesson that she's learning slowly in spades after this season. We also know that Midge's independence is more important to her than any relationship at this point. Dr. Benjamin was nice (always love seeing Zachary Levi) but I do see where he could eventually get tired of her being on the road. Also, Joel is a safety net right now. She's revealing all of the imperfections to him and he still loves her. I think this is going to play into how they grow as people and eventually get back together.

With that said, if Joel marries Mai and Midge ends up with the gorgeous Lenny Bruce, I won't be sad about it.

 

 

 

Lenny Bruce is not a good long term plan for anyone. That's not a spoiler. It's just history!

[Sarah 103]

On 3/8/2020 at 10:20 PM, Old Man Neil said:

They managed to do what Mad Men never did, populate their world with an African American in a position of power. I hope we see more of Shy and Reggie in future seasons. 

Mad Men was in the world of the high end Madison Ave advertising, where there were few African Americans in any positions of power. To be fair, they could have had an African American client trying to hire Sterling Cooper. This show is set in the entertainment industry, which was very different.  

On 8/14/2020 at 12:30 PM, MissScarlett said:

The audience could very clearly draw the line from the ruby slippers to the old "friend of Dorothy" reference, which I believe was a known / popular phrase around the time of Mrs. Maisel.

The phrase "friend of Dorothy" was code among gay men and possibly insiders in the entertianment industry. Most people at the time (late 1950s/early1960s), especially straight people would not have known what it was code for. 

[Kromm]

On 8/26/2020 at 11:49 PM, Sarah 103 said:

The phrase "friend of Dorothy" was code among gay men and possibly insiders in the entertianment industry. Most people at the time (late 1950s/early1960s), especially straight people would not have known what it was code for. 

I agree.  The way that queer references leak into pop culture is pretty new.  In those days, heck for three or four decades AFTER those days, it would't have happened. 

That's why it was EFFECTIVE code talk.  It could be used right out in the open in general company and only the people who were SUPPOSED to understand it would.

[shapeshifter]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:30 AM, MissScarlett said:

Midge ends up with the gorgeous Lenny Bruce, I won't be sad about it.

Yes, please. I’d even be okay with Lenny dying tragically after they were together —but then the show would be even less of a comedy —although most comedies seem to have at least a few heavy doses of tragedy too. 

[J-Man]

On 1/12/2020 at 4:38 PM, ChromaKelly said:

Also if they are so broke, let Zelda go. I'm sure she can find other work.

They did let her go. She was working for the next-door neighbors. Rose saw her beating carpets while standing outside the house. She came back to the Maisel house while she was on a break to cook dinner for the Weissmanns.

Midge did suggest that they were planning to bring Zelda along when they moved back to the Manhattan apartment, so we'll see how that plays out next season.

[Lukeysboat]

On 5/4/2020 at 12:12 PM, NYGirl said:

And lastly....did anyone notice Joe got rid of that mole under his left eye???  I was mesmerized it in seasons 1 and 2 and then in 3...it vanished!!!!

It’s still there in season three. Maybe they toned it down with makeup or something. 

[DrSpaceman73]

I didn't think her jokes about shy were bad.  And I didn't know if the reference to judy garland at that time would have been interpreted as him being gay.  I don't know when judy garland became the gay icon, I just know it was later in her career and don't know how that joke would be interpreted in 1960.  However in that day and age shy just couldnt take the chance she'd say something as bad or worse in the future.  

The thing with her ex fiance bugged me because she never told him it wasn't her that sent her mom down there to him and she also never confronted her mom directly or asked her what she was doing talking to him.  

Also not clear on the finances and how much of their money was lost gambling. I think they left it purposely vague. 

[janie jones]

On 11/1/2020 at 3:46 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

The thing with her ex fiance bugged me because she never told him it wasn't her that sent her mom down there to him and she also never confronted her mom directly or asked her what she was doing talking to him.  

I think that's one of the top things I hate the most in movies/TV. Just tell the person the thing!

[Blackie]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:28 PM, ShadowFacts said:

Yeah, she did thank her sister for doing a felony with her. Not super funny.

 

I didn't get why they just didn't sell the property, they could have got more money, how much would she get for insurance anyways and she would have to share with her sister who still needs a place to live.

 

I enjoyed this season but not as much as the first 2, every character was just toooooo much in this season.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Blackie
eta

[shapeshifter]

On 1/10/2021 at 3:07 PM, Blackie said:

I didn't get why they just didn't sell the property, they could have got more money, how much would she get for insurance anyways and she would have to share with her sister who still needs a place to live.

I can’t recall if anything was mentioned, and I have no knowledge of homeowners’ insurance then or now (other than it being based on assessed value), but maybe the insurance was significantly more than selling.
I’ve seen burning one’s property for financial gain as a plot point in several Law & Order shows. 
But, also, she needed the money right away, and I think selling took more time then. I do recall in the 1950s when we lived in Connecticut, my father took a new job near Philly, and he was only home on weekends for the 9+ months it took for the house to sell.

[KHenry14]

Honestly, I thought the burning of the house was more symbolic than anything monetary. This was Susie and family putting the ugliness behind them...in a funny way. 

[chessiegal]

9 minutes ago, KHenry14 said:

Honestly, I thought the burning of the house was more symbolic than anything monetary. This was Susie and family putting the ugliness behind them...in a funny way. 

Totally agree. Let's get this ugliness behind us.

[mostlylurking]

On 12/11/2019 at 1:48 AM, CatWarmer said:

The problem was that Shy was extremely sensitive and felt betrayed so reacted without thinking. 

This was exactly my thought. I don’t think anyone in the crowd was any more the wiser on Shy’s sexual orientation. Everyone was laughing and it almost felt like a good natured roast. If they knew she was actually outing him, I don’t think the reaction would have been that friendly in that time period. However, SHY KNEW what she was getting at , or at least that’s how he perceived it, and it hit too close to home. 

I don’t like the whole Susie gambling story. It’s just not what I watch this show for. She did say they had insurance on the house and it would cover Midge’s part of the money at least. I really hope Midge doesn’t lose the apartment over this. 

I liked that Rose and Imogen are both trying to make their own way and gain some independence.  That was a shit ton of secretaries!

Edited March 17, 2021 by mostlylurking

[KittyQ]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:33 PM, RedbirdNelly said:

It struck me how things how changed that no one was "what? you want to go learn to be a secretary?" whereas today, a girl graduating 2nd in her class would be assumed to go to college. My mom's parents were totally fine with the secretary ambition--and were disappointed when my mom graduated and decided to go to college after all. They wanted her to get a job (she did use her secretarial skills working part-time through college majoring in math). Anyway, I was just kind of "go Imogene!" when she walked through those doors. 

If I recall correctly, graduates of the Gibbs school were considered to be among the best in the secretarial/assistant pool. A Gibbs graduate would have a great advantage over someone who just knew how to type and file from high school. They could get jobs with some very important companies and I imaging the salaries would be higher than the typical secretary (although sadly still much less than most men). So getting into Katherine Gibbs would be a big positive step for Imogene if she wants to earn her own money and not rely on Archie so much.

[RedbirdNelly]

14 hours ago, KittyQ said:

If I recall correctly, graduates of the Gibbs school were considered to be among the best in the secretarial/assistant pool. A Gibbs graduate would have a great advantage over someone who just knew how to type and file from high school. They could get jobs with some very important companies and I imaging the salaries would be higher than the typical secretary (although sadly still much less than most men). So getting into Katherine Gibbs would be a big positive step for Imogene if she wants to earn her own money and not rely on Archie so much.

that's my understanding. My mom got jobs assisting Harvard professors while she worked her way through college