S05.E06: Episode 6

[sadie]

I am just hating the Joanie stuff. It’s just too much. She’s a horrible sour puss, she’s rude to every person she meets, she sulks, is obsessed with her dead mother, cheats on her husband, has some weird death wish choking thing happening AND oh yea the world is ending. I mean it’s just too much. She’s tortured we get it, did they have to make her tortured with SO much! But she’s going to solve a mystery that no one knew was a mystery because Alison supposedly committed suicide, all happening 30 years ago, and she has a lot of high techie things like toilets that know what you crap into them and super special so glasses that can recreate the weather on any given day and time, I mean what the fuck is happening? 

Ill watch until the end but remember when this was a smart little show that showed how memories are specific to each person, how one persons “truth” maybe is not another's, how an affair ruined the lives it touched in a very real way. How did we go from that to the Jetsons - The Day After Edition? 

[preeya]

1 hour ago, ww92 said:

Lurker here who has decided to delurk to ask, are we supposed to like Joanie? At this point I don't really care if she figures out what happened to Allison or not and I hope her husband has changed the locks and filed for sole custody of those two girls.

IMO, it's more so that fans of the show from the beginning just want to know what happened to Allison and could care less about anyone or anything else from this discombobulated add-on season. I know I don't.

Edited September 30, 2019 by preeya

[MamaMax]

8 hours ago, nara said:

I thought it was mentioned that they were adopted because she didn’t want to pass down her genes...

I thought it was an environmentalist reason, remember when she was talking to =her pregnant boss, she referred to the fetus as a "carbon bomb."

[mxc90]

Too bad the future doesn't have tech that could alert the husband to Joanie's cheating.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Btw, I stopped paying much attention to EJ cuz he bored me so silly, but were his references to real movies?  We were supposed to get these references?  Other than the fact that sour-puss Joanie never got these references, was there a point?  

Actually, I didn’t get the point of EJ’s character, other than to have someone for Joanie to speak to.  She should be talking to a shrink.  That would make sense.  Oh yeah, I forgot, that’s not this season.  And if he does turn out to be Eddie, so what?

[PrincessPurrsALot]

For me EJ was also wholly unlikeable, even aside from the movie references.  His dialog was cringe worthy.  And he stopped mid coitus to analyze Joanie.  She's insufferable and even she didn't deserve that.  Given that action, there's no way he's even a tenth as good at sex as he claims to be. 

[AngelaHunter]

21 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I just wanted to punch her in the face so bad... is that wrong?

She's clearly unhinged.  It only got interesting in the last 5 minutes, by that time I just done with her.  Meeting a guy in the cemetery who just happens to be obsessed with the family?  I guess that's the only way to explain why anyone would want to be in her company for more than 5 minutes.   And he just happens to live in her hometown?  

Every time I see that I crack up. 😂 She reminds me more and more of Noah all the time, right down to the deranged facial expressions.

[Milburn Stone]

On 9/29/2019 at 9:33 AM, scrb said:

OK I think climate change requires urgent measures but no responsible advocate believes the world will become uninhabitable in 30 years.

I bought into that. Responsible advocates today think the process will go at a certain pace. But shit could accelerate.

[CarpeFelis]

Jeesh, did Joanie cultivate her so-called personality to make people WANT to choke her, or what?

3 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

Btw, I stopped paying much attention to EJ cuz he bored me so silly, but were his references to real movies?  We were supposed to get these references?  Other than the fact that sour-puss Joanie never got these references, was there a point?  

Actually, I didn’t get the point of EJ’s character, other than to have someone for Joanie to speak to.  She should be talking to a shrink.  That would make sense.  Oh yeah, I forgot, that’s not this season.  And if he does turn out to be Eddie, so what?

Don’t know what the point was (or if there even was one), but I did get most of the movie references.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Oh gee, honey, by the way, I've been cheating on you for years -- but we're OK, right? 

And Joanie's not Noah's kid?  Are we sure about that?

[LoveLeigh]

What I don't get is why Joanie was looking on her fancy computer at what the moon looked like in October 2021 to determine the tides. Didn't Alison die in 2018? 

[Guest]

It's hysterical that Joanie, who complained that Cole loved her too much and seemingly had a wonderful relationship with her stepmother, turned out to be such a nasty, unpleasant, dour garbage person. Makes total sense. 🙄

17 hours ago, Jadzia said:

Since EJ was researching the family why did he leave the important files abandoned so they could further rot and be looted?

Right? Why not take them since the police station was abandoned anyway? 

This fucking show, man. Every single character they add is more awful than the next. I get that I'm supposed to feel they're all "complicated" and "nuanced" or "damaged" because this is some sort of "high art" show but they all wind up as one-dimensional assholes whose time on the screen can't end soon enough. 

And why is EJ so laser-focused on Cole's side of the family when it comes to figuring out Joanie? He fails to remember that Joanie is also Allison's daughter and could have the "trauma" or "resilience" "gene" from her own family and not so much Cole's.

I say that as if I care. I do not. 

[Pallas]

EJ's field is epigenetics, specializing in trauma markers. The theory first made headway in the press in 2015, with the publication of a small study of the children of Holocaust survivors. Most research so far has focused on transmission from father to son -- in part due to the early subject groups -- but transfer from mother to child is also being studied. Here's a more recent article by the BBC, and another, shorter one from the Times. 

[cardigirl]

13 hours ago, preeya said:

IMO, it's more so that fans of the show from the beginning just want to know what happened to Allison and could care less about anyone or anything else from this discombobulated add-on season. I know I don't.

Fans of the show from the beginning already know what happened to Alison.  The characters in the show don't know.  

[Milburn Stone]

49 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Fans of the show from the beginning already know what happened to Alison.  The characters in the show don't know.  

If by this you mean that we know she was murdered, I don't know that. You can drown in a few inches of water, as Joanie exclaimed. And maybe Joanie's memory of a super-moon on the night Alison died is flawed.

The show is strongly leading us in the direction that she was murdered. But that could be why she wasn't. And the Montauk homicide detective didn't seem like somebody who'd just fallen off the turnip truck.

[LoveLeigh]

20 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

If by this you mean that we know she was murdered, I don't know that. You can drown in a few inches of water, as Joanie exclaimed. And maybe Joanie's memory of a super-moon on the night Alison died is flawed.

The show is strongly leading us in the direction that she was murdered. But that could be why she wasn't. And the Montauk homicide detective didn't seem like somebody who'd just fallen off the turnip truck.

Ah, you are suggesting a "Rashomon." Ruth Wilson would have had to have filmed that third scenario before she left the show. Also confusing to me was what I said above: why was Joanie searching the moon in 2021 on her computer if Alison died in 2018? And let's not forget that the show never disclosed Ben's alibi that the homicide detective stated.

[MaggieG]

Well, call me crazy but I liked EJ and I thought his job was interesting. I am completely over Helen and Noah so I didn't mind spending an episode with Joanie. I do agree that she is awful. 

[Stad15]

11 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

What I don't get is why Joanie was looking on her fancy computer at what the moon looked like in October 2021 to determine the tides. Didn't Alison die in 2018? 

Nope.  In the current timeline last season was 2021.  Don't forget there was a 3 year time jump between Season 2 and Season 3.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Stad15

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Stad15 said:

Nope.  In the current timeline last season was 2021.  Don't forget there was a 3 year time jump between Season 2 and Season 3.

I wonder if the "now" of Season 5 is 2022. Siera got pregnant at the end of Season 4 and delivered at the beginning of Season 5, so some time elapsed.

Puts all the complaints about "why are they devoting time to a future story" in perspective. The whole show is in the future!

[ScoobieDoobs]

13 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Ah, you are suggesting a "Rashomon." Ruth Wilson would have had to have filmed that third scenario before she left the show. Also confusing to me was what I said above: why was Joanie searching the moon in 2021 on her computer if Alison died in 2018? And let's not forget that the show never disclosed Ben's alibi that the homicide detective stated.

I guess I didn't watch too closely last season cuz I thought it was made pretty clear that Ben murdered Alison, but Treem said in an interview before this season started that it was definitely NOT clear, but it will be made clear what exactly happened before the show ends.

The dates (years) really distracted & confused me.  The only explanation is that the exact year was not specifically stated last season.

There was actually only one moment that interested me in this ep -- when Joanie woke up outta her sad-sack stupor & remembered Ben as her mother's bf & put together the possibility she was murdered.  I screamed at my TV -- Oh Joanie, finally you're proving you might (just might) be worth watching, in spite of being a shitty wife, a shitty mother & a generally shitty person!!!

Edited October 2, 2019 by ScoobieDoobs

[weaver]

On 9/30/2019 at 2:42 PM, chabelisaywow said:

I basically have just skimmed these episodes.  I remember the first episode mentioning the husband had a meeting in Houston.. I didn't realize they lived there. 

Yes, that is my recollection.  We don't know where Joanie lives with her family.  But do we know where EJ lives?  When Joanie magically teleported herself to his apartment and looked out EJ's window, there were high rises in her view.   I don't think it was Montauk, was it?  Not that I really care.  

[QualityTVwatchj]

Hello, new here, been reading and enjoying the comments for a while. I agree with pretty much everything written , often insightful and hilarious. 

About Alison's fate , Treem said last year we as the audience know but the characters don't. 

This season is virtually an unrecognizable version of The Affair fans were so involved with in the first two seasons, and IMO the fourth was mostly a return to form. I am fed up with N&H, if they just intended to have them back together why not pick up the season opener with that. All this Sasha stuff is a waste of time and I find him totally unappealing, unconvincing. They could of easily had just a few shows or less to wrap up the very little left. 

I agree on Joanie, so one dimensional and I don't care for Paquin at all as her. If they were going to make her this unsympathetic pick an actress with a bit of warmth or appeal. 

[JenE4]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:56 PM, sadie said:

I am just hating the Joanie stuff. It’s just too much. She’s a horrible sour puss, she’s rude to every person she meets, she sulks, is obsessed with her dead mother, cheats on her husband, has some weird death wish choking thing happening AND oh yea the world is ending. I mean it’s just too much. She’s tortured we get it, did they have to make her tortured with SO much! But she’s going to solve a mystery that no one knew was a mystery because Alison supposedly committed suicide, all happening 30 years ago, and she has a lot of high techie things like toilets that know what you crap into them and super special so glasses that can recreate the weather on any given day and time, I mean what the fuck is happening? 

Ill watch until the end but remember when this was a smart little show that showed how memories are specific to each person, how one persons “truth” maybe is not another's, how an affair ruined the lives it touched in a very real way. How did we go from that to the Jetsons - The Day After Edition? 

Is this some type of allegory that with the rise of technology there will be no more unreliable narrator or letting your own experiences cloud your judgement because let’s go to the google glasses, toilet, strawberry sensors...to tell us what really happened? I mean, I guess we have a glimpse of Joanie and her husband having different experiences of the entirety of their marriage (miserable and cheating vs. blissful family). And they really seem to now be making this about trauma impacting your experiences, too. But technology seems to be a factor in this future to discover the “truth.”

[Snewtsie]

With all the corny movie quotes, I thought it would have been amusing if EJ would have quoted a line from 'The Maze 2'.  

[Mindthinkr]

14 hours ago, ScoobieDoobs said:

I guess I didn't watch too closely last season cuz I thought it was made pretty clear that Ben murdered Alison, but Treem said in an interview before this season started that it was definitely NOT clear, but it will be made clear what exactly happened before the show ends.

Which is why I’m still hanging in there. This show has changed so much from what I watched in the beginning. Some storylines are fluid and some just go on...to go on...they don’t always make sense. Personalities doing a 180, timelines that don’t seem to match up...this show is wanting to have an affair with my brain, but my self keeps saying no. It’s too messy and not worth it. 

[riverwind]

If I remember last year they gave us two different outcomes of what happened to Alission, whether she was murdered or commuted suicide. It was left up to us to decide Does any one else remember that?

[riverwind]

Me gain, thinking too much, but seems like they gave us two different situations with Allison, one wwwhrer it was suicide and the other she was murdered which was brutal and then they left us totally hanging.  It was unsettling because we didn't  know what really happened.

[Snewtsie]

33 minutes ago, riverwind said:

Me gain, thinking too much, but seems like they gave us two different situations with Allison, one wwwhrer it was suicide and the other she was murdered which was brutal and then they left us totally hanging.  It was unsettling because we didn't  know what really happened.

In an interview afterward, Treem stated that Allison was murdered, so it was that scenario that was the real deal.

[Stad15]

8 hours ago, riverwind said:

If I remember last year they gave us two different outcomes of what happened to Alission, whether she was murdered or commuted suicide. It was left up to us to decide Does any one else remember that?

No, the two different outcomes were

1 - Her fantasy version, where Ben confesses, he makes dinner for her, she forgives him, and they make love, and

2- The reality version, where Ben is an asshole and starts drinking, and his PTSD comes out and her murders Alison.

There were no parts of the episode that speculated suicide.  Only Detective Jefferies said that in Episode 8 (the Cole journey episode.)

[AngelaHunter]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:56 PM, sadie said:

Ill watch until the end but remember when this was a smart little show that showed how memories are specific to each person, how one persons “truth” maybe is not another's, how an affair ruined the lives it touched in a very real way. How did we go from that to the Jetsons - The Day After Edition?

Exactly what I've been saying. I'd never heard of this show but was totally hooked at the very first scene of the first episode. It was subtle and intriguing and all relatable, human, with the complexities and ebbs and flows of relationships and how things go south, the pain that one person's happiness can cause to others, etc. Now, all we get are a bunch of over-the-top, annoying caricatures acting badly and doing stupid things.

[AngelaHunter]

On 10/2/2019 at 4:07 PM, Snewtsie said:

In an interview afterward, Treem stated that Allison was murdered, so it was that scenario that was the real deal.

Thank you. I was trying to find that article with no success. She did say that, and said only the viewers knew Alison was murdered, which really sucked and left everyone who loved her feeling and her child thinking her mother had chosen to leave her.

[Milburn Stone]

Treem could be wrong.

[Pallas]

3 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Treem could be wrong.

Or Alison, with her head injury, in her voiceover. And certainly Det. Jeffries, about a night with a super moon (tides) and severe storm (currents) and a body found washed against the jetty several days later. And could the medical examiner prove that she died the same night she disappeared? 

[Rockfish]

On 9/30/2019 at 4:54 PM, stormy weather said:

...Also, thanks to the flashback scenes, I was reminded of the other child actor casting disaster that was 7-year-old Joanie. She looked more like Luisa than anyone else. 
I know this is minor stuff, but it really annoys me 'cause I don't think it would be that hard for casting directors to find more fitting actors for the role. I mean, that's practically their whole job. 

I’ve bitched about the casting of Joanie before, and it isn’t minor stuff because Joanie’s looks are what set in motion the whole Scotty-was-the-victim-of-a-hit-and-run-accident-no-it-was-murder! whodunnit plot point. (To recap: Scotty bumped into Alison and 10(?)-month-old Joanie in the city, and he was struck by how much Joanie looked like Cole (she had light eyes), which made him twirl his mustache because he knew he had blackmail power over Alison and could demand she cut him in on the lucrative restaurant deal. None of that would have happened if Scotty ran into a baby with brown eyes and dark hair.)

But about last night, we discovered the Solloway offspring are not the most unpleasant humans ever. Who’d have guessed? The way Joanie is makes me wonder what Gabriel would have been like as an adult.

Last thing, I think EJ mentioned he spent a couple of hours *every day* at that soggy police station. How is that possible? Does he not have a job, or is the future super awesome so that anyone can make a living doing whatever it is that interests them? Where does he live that he can spend a lot of time in ghost town Montauk?

Edited October 4, 2019 by Rockfish

[Stad15]

7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Treem could be wrong.

Sarah Treem wronged herself?

[AngelaHunter]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:50 PM, ScoobieDoobs said:

Btw, I stopped paying much attention to EJ cuz he bored me so silly, but were his references to real movies?  We were supposed to get these references?  Other than the fact that sour-puss Joanie never got these references, was there a point?  

That's his schtick, since everyone now, even very secondary characters like Jonas or Joel or whatever the co-principal's name is, must have some outstanding quirk, a gimmick that is supposed to be funny, I guess, but just looks silly because they never let up with it and turns all these people into two-dimensional cut-outs.

By the way, in the flashback, Joanie so clearly looked Hispanic, particularly so now that we are seeing her as an adult. There's plenty of child actors around and they pick one who is supposed to the child of Cole and Alison, yet bears not a single resemblance to either. It's a wonder Cole never sat there, looked at her and thought, "Hmmm."

[ScoobieDoobs]

3 hours ago, Rockfish said:

Last thing, I think EJ mentioned he spent a couple of hours *every day* at that soggy police station. How is that possible? Does he not have a job, or is the future super awesome so that anyone can make a living doing whatever it is that interests them? Where does he live that he can spend a lot of time in ghost town Montauk?

Let's see, I'll follow along with the logic of Treem's shit-ass writers & say that EJ is Sierra's kid, & since I don't see Sierra living past this season cuz of the reckless way she lives, & Jennifer Jason Leigh long ago kicked the bucket, maybe EJ lives off JJL's "Hollywood star" dough?  I still say the whole bit with EJ seemed like a dream.

[msrachelj]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:58 PM, mommalib said:

Don't like Joanie at all. And definitely don't like the way she treat her husband. Paul can do much better.

Can't stand her, she has no likable qualities and she needs therapy badly. 

[Pallas]

As she understands it, Joanie is the child of a suicide and a killer: her mother, and her parents' generation.  She was raised by a father living with the sure knowledge that when it mattered most (the end of season 3), he refused to hold onto the love of his life, rather than surrender his view of himself as the good guy; that when it mattered last, he reached out too late, she never knew and then, one way or another, she died young.

I suspect that despite his best intentions, Cole used his daughter, by needing her. He needed Joanie to forgive him, and it wasn't in her power. That's probably something else she ran away from, along with what she called his smothering, which may have alternated with her competing with the past for his attention. 

For many children of suicides, reaching the age at which their parent died is disturbing. Confronting the suicide -- perhaps for the first time in years -- is almost unavoidable, along with renewed survivor's guilt and a weird sense of violating natural order by surviving this too. And if that parent had drowned herself in the ocean that had killed her "real" child, you'd probably feel a lot like Montauk.  

[AngelaHunter]

On 10/4/2019 at 12:13 AM, ScoobieDoobs said:

I still say the whole bit with EJ seemed like a dream.

It kind of did, except for the horrible sex. When I have those dreams, they rock. Of course, with miserable, sour Joanie, even that would be wretched.

21 hours ago, Pallas said:

For many children of suicides, reaching the age at which their parent died is disturbing.

Agree, and have mentioned that having a mother who chose to leave you - which is the way a child would see it - has to cause long-lasting trauma.

[cardigirl]

On 10/3/2019 at 8:45 PM, Rockfish said:

Last thing, I think EJ mentioned he spent a couple of hours *every day* at that soggy police station. How is that possible? Does he not have a job, or is the future super awesome so that anyone can make a living doing whatever it is that interests them? Where does he live that he can spend a lot of time in ghost town Montauk?

If he’s doing research, it’s not necessarily a 9-5 type of job. He could be working for a university or medical facility doing research on that particular theory. I didn’t find it unusual. 

[Pallas]

21 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Agree, and have mentioned that having a mother who chose to leave you - which is the way a child would see it - has to cause long-lasting trauma.

As fatherless Alison was (also) left by her mother for years at a time; her grandmother Joan raised her. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

On re-watching, I was completely confused by Luisa.  OK, so Joanie says they (Cole & Luisa) broke up when she was 7 (30 years ago) & Cole never dated anyone ever again & he was close to Joanie to the point of suffocating & she had to get away from him — and yet she still remained close to Luisa & calls her mom & understands when she speaks to her lovingly in Spanish.  Made for a kinda sweet scene in this ep, but made little sense.  Again, such shitty writing.

Edited October 6, 2019 by ScoobieDoobs

[izabella]

Maybe Cole wasn't as suffocating as Joanie is remembering.  Or maybe she felt his love was suffocating because it was so intense and felt like a burden to her as a child, but he wasn't actually isolating her from Luisa or others.

Also, Cole trusted Luisa with Joanie.  If anyone would be allowed to see Joanie and spend time with her, I would expect he'd let Luisa do that.

[Growsonwalls]

I finally saw this episode. Cole was “smothering” so Joanie cut him off for 20 years? Jesus does Cole have BO or something? He was a pretty decent husband to Alison and she cheated on him. Sounds like he was a loving father to Joanie and she cuts him off for 20 years. And even his new wife Luisa who also seems like a decent person broke up with him. 

[T Summer]

I was rewatching this drivel  (God knows why) and  I heard something I didn't in previous views; in the scene at the Police Station  E.J.  said "The Lockhearts are like my Windsors". Whaaat?

I suppose E.J. could be a kid Oscar had after little O? He could have died after the birth of that son. I don't think it will turn out that way but he's the only one  who's shown  any interest in the Lockheart's saga and didn't the Hodges figure into it somehow?   I remember Oscar saying  he gave Noah "gold"  as far as background info for his novel. I even told him about the feud between our families, he said.  Also in season 4 didn't they make a point of showing a growing  friendship between Cole and Oscar when Cole was working on building his new house? Oscar was the only one Cole confided  in about sleeping with Alison while he was with Luisa. 

Does this freaking scientist dude know any other words besides "resilient"?

 I know you sometimes have to suspend disbelief in implausible occurrences to watch continuing  dramas  but this  Joanie ep.  I cannot! The meet up with E.J. was hokey to begin with. It was    filled start to finish with ridiculous happenings, especially for such a major   plot point to   turn  on. This is what we've been waiting for? 

We're to believe Joanie would have never questioned  whether her mother actually committed suicide if she hadn't run into E.J .the   epigeneticist at the cemetery? She was visiting her Dad's grave. What was E.J. doing there? Surely  his research already included any info  such as names and dates that could be gleaned by looking at Cole's, Gabriel's  and various Lockheart family members'  headstone?.

E.J., who  just happened to be studying the possibility of inter-generational trauma and specifically it's effect on HER family  the Lockhearts. Because a man who is a scientist would be studying what else when the planet is quickly dying????

  Then her attempt to remove herself from  the secluded area where a stranger was trying to chat her up was thwarted by not one but two flat bicycle tires. They were fine  and got her to the cemetery. though, no problem.

...and years before the flooded police station was abandoned  and sensitive materials like crime records were left   for the taking at a time when E.J. just happened to come along so he could scoop them up for his research. Of course the elements didn't  damage  the specific ones relating to Alison's death or crimes involving  the Lockhearts.

All so he could work the revelation that her mother died on the jetty into complementing her "resilience". If he'd  simply said she was young and pretty to be a scientist (which seems much more like something  a socially awkward guy like that might say), she'd have never known?

After a brief conversation when he dropped her home at her dad's he just happened to see and ask for that box of Cole's  which Joanie apparently never looked through that contained newspaper clippings and photos of  Ben. The box and photos were now clearly visible despite the fact Joanie gathered them up  in trash bags when she dismantled  the shrine at  her dad's house. Oh yes,  that was explained. Raccoons.

 After she went all self-destructive and blew up her home life she traveled all the way BACK to Montauk  (or wherever E.J .lives) straight into the arms of the wisecracking, movie trivia spewing  stranger she just met. Not to Luisa's or a friend's place to see if her husband Paul  might have a change of heart the next day and want to talk. Of course, because if she wasn't at  E.J.'s he couldn't show her the photos of the young marine he thought might be Cole's secret love   he found in the box.

Ben, who she recognizes having seen at 7. For that to happen Alison had to have Cole (who she'd fairly recently told she loved) picking Joanie up just when Ben was dropping by for a date [which she did]. Right. Because divorced ex's with small children do this kind of thing all the time.

Also one wonders how E.J. found Joanie's cell number  to call her to see the super moon with him that first night in Montauk,  having only her first name to go on? She was like the 5th Joanie he called, he said. She not only remembers there being a super moon the night her mother died but  now she uses technology to see there wasn't deep enough water to drown in.

It never ever ends. Joanie revealed she questioned the E.M.T 's quite closely about whether her father  would have made it if someone was there to help him access his heart medications.  He was crawling to his meds,  she said. Yet nobody asked questions at the time of Alison's death about whether she had water in her lungs to indicate drowning?  or no water to indicate being thrown / placed in after death? Not Cole, Athena, Noah,  Cherry, her SIL, Cole's other brothers, Oscar,  James, co-workers at the psych facility, waitress friend from the LR,, singer friend Phoebe, No one?  The cut(s) on her head were discussed and said by Lt. Jeffries to have come from her head hitting rocks in the water. Why did it all stop there? Remember Lt. Jeffries?   who didn't give up until he found Noah's cancelled garage appointment when investigating Scotty's  death? (or was the inn reservation?) anyway HE never delved that far into Alison's cause of death (nor  did any other police). Why?

[Dminches]

On 10/6/2019 at 2:16 PM, ScoobieDoobs said:

On re-watching, I was completely confused by Luisa.  OK, so Joanie says they (Cole & Luisa) broke up when she was 7 (30 years ago) & Cole never dated anyone ever again & he was close to Joanie to the point of suffocating & she had to get away from him — and yet she still remained close to Luisa & calls her mom & understands when she speaks to her lovingly in Spanish.  Made for a kinda sweet scene in this ep, but made little sense.  Again, such shitty writing.

I am confused by this as well.  When did Joanie and Luisa have an opportunity to develop a relationship?  If Joanie lived with Cole through college, at least, and Cole and Luisa were not together and Joanie was not Luisa's child when did they spend time together?

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

If Joanie lived with Cole through college, at least, and Cole and Luisa were not together and Joanie was not Luisa's child when did they spend time together?

Maybe Cole let Joanie visit Luisa.  I'm sure Cole would have wanted some time to himself to drink and mourn Alison for a weekend with Joanie safely away with Luisa.  Maybe Cole turned to Luisa for help with Joanie when she went through puberty and needed a "mom" to help her navigate.   And as she got older, Joanie kept in touch with phone and skype and whatnot. 

Luisa was his wife, and she took care of Joanie a lot as a child, so I can see Cole allowing - or even requesting - that relationship continue for Joanie's sake.

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

I am confused by this as well.  When did Joanie and Luisa have an opportunity to develop a relationship?  If Joanie lived with Cole through college, at least, and Cole and Luisa were not together and Joanie was not Luisa's child when did they spend time together?

Well, there was no need for Joanie and Luisa to "develop" a relationship as they already had one.  Alison didn't tell Cole that he was Joanie's father until after his marriage to Luisa when Joanie was between 2-3 years old.  This means that from that point until Cole took her to Vermont or wherever, Luisa was as much as a caregiver to Joanie as her parents.  This was pretty clearly established on screen.  Certainly Cole had no problem leaving Joanie in Luisa's care as he did it pretty often. 

In their last scenes at the end of Season 4, Cole seemed to acknowledge and accept Luisa's place in Joanie's life when he said that Joanie couldn't lose Luisa too when she'd already lost Alison.  There's no reason why she still couldn't have been an important  part of Joanie's life even if Cole had her in Vermont.  I'm sure he allowed her to spend time with people and family other than himself.  Grown-up Joanie even mentions in passing to Luisa that Cole didn't move "with us" when they moved to wherever they lived.  Joanie's daughters were clearly familiar and had a relationship with Luisa running to her and calling her "Grandma" and even Paul referred to her as Joanie's "mom."  Luisa was obviously a significant part of adult Joanie's life, so she must have been there in some capacity when she was growing up.  I don't see adult Joanie becoming close with her after not seeing her since she was seven.  Not a big deal.  It doesn't erase Alison as her mother in any way as Joanie was still very affected by the death of her mother as an adult.

And Cole had his wedding pictures still up on the wall in his bedroom in the future*, the same bedroom that he shared with Luisa when they were together, so he must not have had any problems with her.  And why would he?  She never did anything to him except want him and him only and love and help take care of his child while he cheated and lied to her face.  

*No one said anything at the time, so I thought it was just me, but if you go back to episode 4 at the end when Joanie starts cleaning out Cole's closet you can see the pictures from Cole and Luisa's wedding reflected in the mirror on the wall when Joanie bends down in front of the mirror to pick something up.

[chenoa333]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:52 PM, AngelaHunter said:

She reminds me more and more of Noah all the time, right down to the deranged facial expressions.

Noah is one fugly actor. I dunno how he was chosen to portray a supposedly handsome, older heartbreaker, gigilo of a man. He just can't act his way into hotness. Cause he's not