S03.E12: Sacrifice

[alexvillage]

I really love the sarcasm here and I am grateful that you still hang on to this crap so I can get a few laughs in the morning.

Reading this thread, two things come to mind: 

The episode was probably written by a man, since it appears to me that spy guy is poised to be Serena's savior. The old and tired man saves woman in distress. Of course, a man has to "recover" Serena because MEN!

This show is the equivalent of whitewashing in our real world. When minorities do all the hard work then white people rewrite history to tell a story of how awesome the whites were supporting this and that, so the "poor" minority person could get their day of accomplishment, blah, blah. (referring here to how the Marthas have a whole Railroad Underground system that got totally run over by June's super duper plans).

I don't think the thing with Serena being granted the privilege of meeting the kid she kidnapped (writing this is already absurd) is to extract information from her, I guess it is just the writers plot to keep their loyal viewers - who don't question anything - talking and swooning. And if the idea was to use Nichole to get Serena to talk, MAKE HER TALK FIRST! The woman is a criminal, a privileged woman in Gilead and if she had any compassion or regrets, she would be talking non-stop, without being asked, just because she understands. She had shown some sympathy for June, so she is not brainwashed or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Even she had lied about being sympathetic, she understands what goes on in Gilead. She lost a finger because of that. No, the writers are simply dragging the Serena plot because they need their ten seasons. 

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I just read that Elisabeth Moss now even has input on camera angles and scene setting, making her basically a cinematographer/director. Color me shocked.

I’m not surprised to learn that. I’ve seen Elisabeth Moss in several interviews. She strikes me as a bit of a dim bulb.

[AllyB]

5 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Luke should have come to Fred with a stiffer spine and better comebacks, because it should not have been that easy for Fred to get to him

Exactly. When Fred was telling Luke he saved lives while Luke ignored the fertility crises, it would have been so easy for Luke to laugh in his face and say "I might have done nothing but at least I didn't wilfully pretend the problem was with the women when we all know it was the men, so that I could enslave and rape women to make myself feel better about my useless sperm. Oh, no wait, I did do something, I fathered a child because my sperm isn't useless like yours. And I would almost certainly have fathered another if you hadn't destroyed our family you delusional little tosspot." And then much as it would have hurt him a bit but he's had time deal and know it would hurt Fred more, he'd have rubbed Nick in Fred's face and mocked him for being such a useless gimp that he even had his wife name June's baby after her biological father.

Instead we got Luke looking down and feeling bad about how Fred has a point about him saving lives!!!!!!! WTAF!!!

Edited August 7, 2019 by AllyB

[Brn2bwild]

39 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Exactly. When Fred was telling Luke he saved lives while Luke ignored the fertility crises, it would have been so easy for Luke to laugh in his face and say "I might have done nothing but at least I didn't wilfully pretend the problem was with the women when we all know it was the men, so that I could enslave and rape women to make myself feel better about my useless sperm. Oh, no wait, I did do something, I fathered a child because my sperm isn't useless like yours. And I would almost certainly have fathered another if you hadn't destroyed our family you delusional little tosspot." And then much as it would have hurt him a bit but he's had time deal and know it would hurt Fred more, he'd have rubbed Nick in Fred's face and mocked him for being such a useless gimp that he even had his wife name June's baby after her biological father.

Instead we got Luke looking down and feeling bad about how Fred has a point about him saving lives!!!!!!! WTAF!!!

I kept waiting for Luke to respond: "You mean the lives of all those Congressmen you murdered?"

[The Mighty Peanut]

6 hours ago, jenn31 said:

I expect that baby could write a better story.

They should end every episode with an extreme close up of the baby.

Edited August 7, 2019 by The Mighty Peanut

[kieyra]

13 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I kept waiting for Luke to respond: "You mean the lives of all those Congressmen you murdered?"

Anything that didn’t happen in this actual episode doesn’t count. And maybe not even then.

[Ariam]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

I’m not surprised to learn that. I’ve seen Elisabeth Moss in several interviews. She strikes me as a bit of a dim bulb.

I’ve been saying this the whole time. To me she does not come across AT ALL as a feminist or someone who would understand what Atwood’s story was really about. She seems think that a tough sexy woman role is empowering, when it’s not at all. She doesn’t seem to grasp the l political and smart side of the story and the whole allegory to reality, from the interviews I watched I got the idea that her vocabulary wasn’t very vast (which fits with the fuck this fuck that style they’ve given June). The show tries to be artsy fartsy but can’t, because art has a message and depth, and they don’t. 

I hate hate hate June in the show and I really don’t want to ever see Elizabeth Moss anywhere again. Let alone her directing anything  

[burghgal]

I am now so mad at myself for watching this show.  Ugh - they have done a complete and total character assassination on every character, even Ms. Lawrence.  I am rooting for no one now - except maybe Emily and Rita.  

When spy guy handed Serena the paper - I was like "Please just let us see the headlines" -- the only reason I am invested in the show right now is because of the world building that isn't happening at all.  I don't think the writers know what to do with Gilead/world so they do close ups of June instead. 

I feel like I am in a dysfunctional relationship with this show - I need to quit it but I keep thinking it will get better again.

[alexvillage]

3 hours ago, Ariam said:

I’ve been saying this the whole time. To me she does not come across AT ALL as a feminist or someone who would understand what Atwood’s story was really about. She seems think that a tough sexy woman role is empowering, when it’s not at all. She doesn’t seem to grasp the l political and smart side of the story and the whole allegory to reality, from the interviews I watched I got the idea that her vocabulary wasn’t very vast (which fits with the fuck this fuck that style they’ve given June). The show tries to be artsy fartsy but can’t, because art has a message and depth, and they don’t. 

Scientologists. They only care about their steps to superior wisdom and the next planet the y are going to "fix" with their messages of self healing, making money and abusing people. It is no surprise she doesn't grasp anything beyond her cult. Those things are not what a superior soul cares about. I say this very seriously, no snark here.

[Baltimore Betty]

The writers missed an opportunity to give Luke an amazing scene with Fred, instead they had Luke haul off and hit him...Luke has so much to say and they wasted it, why even have him see Fred?  

Why did they even let Serena Joy see Fred? Just to let him know SJ sold him out for the baby? It should have been a visit with a thick piece of glass between them...why let them talk to each other during an on going investigation?

June, ugh. Her even opening up her mouth to Winslow's wife was insipid writing, as a Handmaid she should have had her eyes on the floor and silent, right?  The smirking must stop, we get it you are superior to all.  

I wanted to see Luke being eloquent an poinent, I wanted to see Moira tell SJ in a calm manner what she knows about life in Gilead, I wanted to see Canadian spy guy lower the boom on any freedom that SJ thinks she will have, she is a marked woman, there are plenty of former Gilead women that would like to take a shot at her.

I wish the writers would read these posts from us.

[Penman61]

Just a factual question:

What did June do, exactly, that allowed Mrs. Lawrence to die? I confess I might have been hiding under the covers in fear of surprise Moss close-ups.

[Lemons]

That turned my stomach when june didn’t get help for the commanders wife, his whole reason for living.  She was so good to June. June’s  stupid looking face twitchily calculating what would be best for her.

 Watching Lawrence’s profound sadness was moving.  Then his side eye to June wondering about her rule in the death. 

[rubinia]

I enjoyed Moira's verbal takedown of Serena, but what I don't get is why the hell Luke and Moira would even show up with Holly to let her not-mother/rapist's accomplice visit with her? What the fuck? I want to like the journalist dude but his flirtiness with Serena is NOT CUTE. Serena might be an interesting character but I still DO NOT feel sorry for her and I never will. It's so frustrating that the refugees in Canada aren't doing shit to expose Gilead for what it is!!!!

The closeup of the eyes at the end made me LOL.

[rubinia]

30 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Just a factual question:

What did June do, exactly, that allowed Mrs. Lawrence to die? I confess I might have been hiding under the covers in fear of surprise Moss close-ups.

I thought she just sort of didn't do anything...?

[Penman61]

43 minutes ago, rubinia said:

I thought she just sort of didn't do anything...?

Sorry I was unclear: I should have asked, "What did Mrs. Lawrence die from?"

[lavenderblue]

Mrs. Lawrence ODed, although I wasn't clear on what, given the whole plot thread about lack of easy access to various medications.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, rubinia said:

I enjoyed Moira's verbal takedown of Serena, but what I don't get is why the hell Luke and Moira would even show up with Holly to let her not-mother/rapist's accomplice visit with her? What the fuck?

I didn't understand that either. They're not obligated to be there and Moira obviously didn't want to, so why did she? "Will you bring Holly to see Serena?" "No." See how easy that is? Serena is no one to Holly. It's clear that Canada doesn't recognize Serena as Holly's mother (which she isn't), so she has no standing to ask and they had no obligation to do it.

I can ABSOLUTELY understand why Luke and Moira would want to see the Waterfords to cuss their asses out, but they don't need Holly for that.

[Ramona]

I don't think I can watch this show any more.  I don't think it is being respectful to the grave subject matter it is trying to present.  Furthermore, it is not being respectful to its audience.  The scene with Serena holding Nichole incensed me. It was so manipulative.  As if I would ever have sympathy for a woman who participated in the rape and subjugation of another human being.  Not to get too personal, but as someone who was not able to have a child of my own and who once considered open adoption, I can tell you that the more you learn, you realize that the bravest thing a woman can do is voluntarily give up her child when she knows she can not take care of her.  And as much as I wanted to be a mother, I never felt entitled or believed that any woman is not entitled to make her own choice.  Being a mother is always about what is best for the child, never about you  or your selfish needs.  The fact that Serena, in her sick mind, still refers to Nichole/Holly as her child, tells me she will never get it.  I can forgive June's erratic/annoying behavior throughout this season, but I will not forgive an attempt at redemption for Serena.  That would be an insult to couples who struggle with infertility, to women who have given up their children, to women who have HAD THEIR CHILDREN TAKEN AWAY, to women who have been FORCED TO HAVE CHILDREN because their right to choose has been taken away. It is an insult to all women, period. 

[dmc]

7 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I really love the sarcasm here and I am grateful that you still hang on to this crap so I can get a few laughs in the morning.

Reading this thread, two things come to mind: 

The episode was probably written by a man, since it appears to me that spy guy is poised to be Serena's savior. The old and tired man saves woman in distress. Of course, a man has to "recover" Serena because MEN!

This show is the equivalent of whitewashing in our real world. When minorities do all the hard work then white people rewrite history to tell a story of how awesome the whites were supporting this and that, so the "poor" minority person could get their day of accomplishment, blah, blah. (referring here to how the Marthas have a whole Railroad Underground system that got totally run over by June's super duper plans).

I don't think the thing with Serena being granted the privilege of meeting the kid she kidnapped (writing this is already absurd) is to extract information from her, I guess it is just the writers plot to keep their loyal viewers - who don't question anything - talking and swooning. And if the idea was to use Nichole to get Serena to talk, MAKE HER TALK FIRST! The woman is a criminal, a privileged woman in Gilead and if she had any compassion or regrets, she would be talking non-stop, without being asked, just because she understands. She had shown some sympathy for June, so she is not brainwashed or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Even she had lied about being sympathetic, she understands what goes on in Gilead. She lost a finger because of that. No, the writers are simply dragging the Serena plot because they need their ten seasons. 

I hope fervently spy guy is playing the long game with serena but this show disappoints me all the time

[DuckyinKy]

There is no doubt in my mind had June tried to save Eleanor, the household would have been on the wall for her actions. It was clear from the sermon that Gilead considers suicide a sin. There was no celebration of her contributions, only remarks asking forgiveness. Some religions believe suicide is a sin because you have no chance to repent. When June saw the pills, the spillage coming from Eleanor's mouth, she knew she was trying to take her own life. And on CC we were reminded there were dogs barking - several times. We were reminded last week Gilead uses penalties of being torn apart by dogs for using contraception. June really wasn't going to win there - call for help and the entire Lawrence household is held responsible with an unimaginable death sentence, or let her die peacefully in her bed. Either way, it's fucked up. I kept thinking, why is CC reminding us there are dogs barking? Pills by the bedside? 

On the other hand, we were heard other footsteps coming from Eleanor's room, so it is entirely possible Lawrence set her up as a mercy kill because she was so fragile. June might be a boss but she is still a handmaid, things could get much worse for her, we're told that too. 

Lastly - we've been hearing things about "ceremony night" and treating humans like concubine and other crimes since the series started. But having Moira say it to Serena, finally the absurdity of the entire Gilead system, inhumane and outrageous, came to life for me! As in seriously, Mrs. Winslow, ordering June "you will pray for his safe return" like you can order another person who had God given free will, to pray for YOUR best interests? Fuck off Mrs. W, what a shame you didn't shoulder bop your way to the oven with your husband - ick.

Edited because grammar counts. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by DuckyinKy

[AnswersWanted]

9 hours ago, jenn31 said:

I expect that baby could write a better story.

9 hours ago, ferjy said:

Ha! I have no doubt. 

Haha! So true, the baby at least would have known that writing in the scene with Serena was pointless and wrong.

I mean has no one heard of the term "stranger danger" for real in this bunch?

7 hours ago, dmc said:

Why does Fred’s prison cell look like the Ritz and why does Serena get visitation with a child she has no claim to? 

Sorry but no, there are firsthand testimonies from Gillead they don’t need information from these two.  This is what sucks about this show they place believability on the back burner.  I don’t have any sympathy for Serena at all.  So if this show thinks I’m interested in seeing her make a new life wherever thanks but no thanks.   

This show continues to be obsessed with the Waterford's no matter how played out their story has generally become, and their lives in captivity even now reflect that favoritism and bias the writers have for them, it's totally nuts to me.

They are criminals, murders, rapists, baby snatchers, traitors of their country, and yet you have Fred on one hand getting à la carte  service and as cushy a room than some presidential suites, and Serena gets a sweet deal for basically confirming a bunch of information that's already out there, and has been well known and documented through the testimonies of actual victims of the crimes and atrocities that have been committed.

7 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I really love the sarcasm here and I am grateful that you still hang on to this crap so I can get a few laughs in the morning.

Reading this thread, two things come to mind: 

The episode was probably written by a man, since it appears to me that spy guy is poised to be Serena's savior. The old and tired man saves woman in distress. Of course, a man has to "recover" Serena because MEN!

This show is the equivalent of whitewashing in our real world. When minorities do all the hard work then white people rewrite history to tell a story of how awesome the whites were supporting this and that, so the "poor" minority person could get their day of accomplishment, blah, blah. (referring here to how the Marthas have a whole Railroad Underground system that got totally run over by June's super duper plans).

I don't think the thing with Serena being granted the privilege of meeting the kid she kidnapped (writing this is already absurd) is to extract information from her, I guess it is just the writers plot to keep their loyal viewers - who don't question anything - talking and swooning. And if the idea was to use Nichole to get Serena to talk, MAKE HER TALK FIRST! The woman is a criminal, a privileged woman in Gilead and if she had any compassion or regrets, she would be talking non-stop, without being asked, just because she understands. She had shown some sympathy for June, so she is not brainwashed or suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Even she had lied about being sympathetic, she understands what goes on in Gilead. She lost a finger because of that. No, the writers are simply dragging the Serena plot because they need their ten seasons. 

Amen, amen.

I couldn't agree with you more than I always do, @alexvillage, your posts always reflect my exact same thoughts and feelings.

The way June was being praised and upheld as this amazing goddess on high for doing something that still should be a seriously impossible endeavor bound to get everyone involved killed, including the children, is directly because the show doesn't give two shits.

June will be the hero no matter what, June has all the ideas, June has all the power and poise and she is BOSS.

Yawn.

And as for Serena...you said it all.

Again, the show wants us to sympathize and feel for her as she gets a short hour with a baby she crafted through torture, manipulation, murder, and rape.

Thanks, show, but my feels are firmly in check about how much I care to see a rapist cuddling their victim's baby.

The obvious selective way they write for and about Serena, and I do believe it's because she's a female character, irks me to no end.

I don't care if she has a vagina, she's no different or better than Fred, yet the clear difference in how they're written and talked about and treated on screen makes me more annoyed than June's closeups, and that's saying something.

Why does she continue to get so many passes because she cries and feels a little bad about all the pain and destruction she's caused until she doesn't and wants to steal back a kid that was never hers to start with? GTFOOH.

7 hours ago, AllyB said:

Exactly. When Fred was telling Luke he saved lives while Luke ignored the fertility crises, it would have been so easy for Luke to laugh in his face and say "I might have done nothing but at least I didn't wilfully pretend the problem was with the women when we all know it was the men, so that I could enslave and rape women to make myself feel better about my useless sperm. Oh, no wait, I did do something, I fathered a child because my sperm isn't useless like yours. And I would almost certainly have fathered another if you hadn't destroyed our family you delusional little tosspot." And then much as it would have hurt him a bit but he's had time deal and know it would hurt Fred more, he'd have rubbed Nick in Fred's face and mocked him for being such a useless gimp that he even had his wife name June's baby after her biological father.

Instead we got Luke looking down and feeling bad about how Fred has a point about him saving lives!!!!!!! WTAF!!!

But Luke punched Fred! Like in the face! Isn't that what a GOOD DUDE does to a BAD BRO when they're man talking...? (sarcasm to the max).

I used to think this show had great writing, then I realize they were just basically quoting Atwood's book nearly word for word, and after season 1 their writing has gone straight to shit.

This scene was begging for some nuance, some clarity, some real emotion and a deft hand for tension and drama. It had absolutely none of that.

It had Luke losing his cool, this time sober, and getting in a single punch instead of getting to Fred the best way possible and the most meaningful, with truth and facts as you mentioned.

Luke should have been so much more than a hothead that lost his cool after 2 minutes.

That scene could have been full of brilliant storytelling, an important and earth shattering scene that we've been building up to for over 2 and a half seasons, and instead it was the same old same of cheap violence to end a short scene that frankly didn't need to happen at all because it got us nowhere.

Fred's super bad, Luke's super mad and sad, Luke punches Fred, end scene. It was disgraceful.

[dmc]

Guys look at the episode titles, the last episode was called Liars because Serena was pulling one over on Fred and this episode was called Sacrifice because sacrifices the commander's wife to the cause

Also elizabeth moss has already confirmed it.  June realizes she's a liability and lets her die

Edited August 7, 2019 by dmc

[DiabLOL]

Did I imagine Luke actually looking SHAMED by his wife's captor and rapist??? 

It kind of ruined the "finally" feelings I had during Serena's smackdowns.

[steph369]

4 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

June, ugh. Her even opening up her mouth to Winslow's wife was insipid writing, as a Handmaid she should have had her eyes on the floor and silent, right?  The smirking must stop, we get it you are superior to all.  

She’s not a handmaid anymore. She’s SuperJune. Oh and so BOSS. 🙄

[steph369]

6 hours ago, burghgal said:

I am rooting for no one now - except maybe Emily and Rita.  

I’ve lost total respect for Rita after her comment to June being so BOSS. And I fear we may never see Emily again since she won’t promote June’s storyline at all.  

[AnswersWanted]

2 hours ago, Ramona said:

I don't think I can watch this show any more.  I don't think it is being respectful to the grave subject matter it is trying to present.  Furthermore, it is not being respectful to its audience.  The scene with Serena holding Nichole incensed me. It was so manipulative.  As if I would ever have sympathy for a woman who participated in the rape and subjugation of another human being.  Not to get too personal, but as someone who was not able to have a child of my own and who once considered open adoption, I can tell you that the more you learn, you realize that the bravest thing a woman can do is voluntarily give up her child when she knows she can not take care of her.  And as much as I wanted to be a mother, I never felt entitled or believed that any woman is not entitled to make her own choice.  Being a mother is always about what is best for the child, never about you  or your selfish needs.  The fact that Serena, in her sick mind, still refers to Nichole/Holly as her child, tells me she will never get it.  I can forgive June's erratic/annoying behavior throughout this season, but I will not forgive an attempt at redemption for Serena.  That would be an insult to couples who struggle with infertility, to women who have given up their children, to women who have HAD THEIR CHILDREN TAKEN AWAY, to women who have been FORCED TO HAVE CHILDREN because their right to choose has been taken away. It is an insult to all women, period. 

What a magnificent and significant post.

I'd love to see Miller and Littlefield try and defend their choices about this sensitive and delicate subject against this glorious post of absolute truth, they'd have no chance.

Atwood never expected us to understand or forgive the choices any of the characters in her book made, they made them for their own reasons and we, the readers, were left to decide for ourselves whether we thought they were or weren't justified based on the situations they were all in.

This show has totally given up on that premise. They want to TELL us specifically what we're supposed to feel, who we should definitely be rooting for because of this or that reason, why we need to agree with or condemn or condone this action or behavior.

I absolutely agree with you that it's an insult to the audience to write about these types of characters and situations in this way.

These show runners want to control the narrative of such horrific and unforgivable circumstances when it isn't called for or necessary.

These circumstances are supposed to be the point of contention for us, not to openly give anyone the so called label of hero or heroine or villain, but just write about flawed people at their best and their absolute worst.

Instead they want to push us towards so many set conclusions that they have set up, obviously fueled by their desire to get to "10 seasons", and it erodes the entire point of the story they claim they're trying to tell.

They want us to feel a certain kind of way about Serena and her "struggle", they want us to root so hard for June Wick, BOSS of Gilead, that we completely ignore the fact that she was never supposed to be the next Captain Marvel.

Atwood wrote a story to make us think, not tell us what to think, these writers have completely missed that mark, imho.

THT to me stood out as a story to show us all how easy it can be to turn complacent and complicit.

It showed us what it takes, often very little, for people to do the unspeakable, the unimaginable, the incomprehensible. And then to do it in large groups, large enough to topple democracy and freedom. 

It was a tale meant to make us understand and recognize, in very graphic details, the slippery slope that any one of us can take, coming from any background, religion, ethnicity, sex or sexual orientation, when we turn our beliefs, or lack thereof, into weapons of mass destruction with vast and long reaching consequences. 

Margaret wanted us to see how quickly the world around us can change, and swallow us whole before we even realize we're in the belly of the beast. 

What she did not do, however, is set up THT to be some goddamn stereotype of a hero's origin story that is trying its' hardest to be a DC Comics wannabe. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[steph369]

4 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

The writers missed an opportunity to give Luke an amazing scene with Fred, instead they had Luke haul off and hit him...Luke has so much to say and they wasted it, why even have him see Fred?  

It killed my anticipation completely. I don’t know about these writers anymore. Can we put the writers on the wall?

Edited August 7, 2019 by steph369

[alexvillage]

14 minutes ago, steph369 said:

I’ve lost total respect for Rita after her comment to June being so BOSS. And I fear we may never see Emily again since she won’t promote June’s storyline at all.  

OMG! I thought you guys were being sarcastic but was that an actual line in the sow? Fuck this crap! This level of writing would get a D in a junior high essay.

I was actually coming back here to ask about Emily. How many episodes since she was last seen? Three? How can they simply let the story fade like this? Never mind, I don't expect anything of value from them but what the fuck?

[Anela]

I was thinking about watching the last two episodes (this and the previous one), but now I'm not sure that I will. At least Moira got to say something to Serena. If they're letting Serena be around the baby, I don't want to see any of that - or this American guy helping her out. 

[Helena Dax]

I'm not surprised Spy Guy is respecting the deal he made with Serena because it's the smart thing to do if you want to encourage more defections. Also, the world doesn't always punish war criminals: sometimes they strike a deal, which is what she seems to have done.

Btw, I think Spy Guy is manipulating her.

Mrs Lawrence wanted to die. That was the sacrifice. She knew she was a liability and she chose to protect the children with her life. I think June understood that too. 

Loved Moira, Serena had it coming.

[80sBaby]

I remember staying up until midnight to watch the new episode....Oh how times have changed.

Who is writing this drivel? The world from the book that was beautifully crafted in S1 is gone. 

Luke(who I never liked)has an opportunity to make a powerful statement to Fred, but instead he punches him.🙄  That scene could have been so great if the show had good writers.

June/Elizabeth still has plot armor made of Vibranium. The Commander stands there while June slams his wife into the wall sneering and threatening. WTF?? June has ZERO POWER. He can pick up the phone and have her swinging in minutes but he cowers while she gives orders and glares at him. 

The first ten minutes of everyone cheering on June was ridiculous, you can surely tell EM has a lot of power behind he scenes. I wouldn't have been shocked if someone kissed June's feet!! She of course self serving as ever lets the wife die while staring up at the ceiling. Yes, she would have exposed the plan blah blah...but at some point June needs to show some basic human empathy. She is now just as sickening as the Gilead leaders. How can we root for her, she's horrible.

So many things....uuugh. But I'm still watching SMH 

And once again for the showrunners in the back...STOP THE ZOOM IN/CLOSEUPS. The eyes staring at the end literally made me roll my eyes and lmao at the same time!!! It's not some powerful shot, it's become an annoying joke.

[Empress1]

32 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Loved Moira, Serena had it coming.

Serena forgot that she wasn't in Gilead when she tried to pull rank on Moira. Thought she was slick with that "I'm sure she will be fine with me" shit. It was very dismissive, like "yes, yes, you can leave now." And Moira was having less than none of it, and brava to her.

Also, shut up, Spy Guy. "That's uncalled for." Aw, did we hurt the war criminal's feelings? Fuck that.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Serena forgot that she wasn't in Gilead when she tried to pull rank on Moira. Thought she was slick with that "I'm sure she will be fine with me" shit. It was very dismissive, like "yes, yes, you can leave now." And Moira was having less than none of it, and brava to her.

Also, shut up, Spy Guy. "That's uncalled for." Aw, did we hurt the war criminal's feelings? Fuck that.

He's playing Serena, to use her in the take down of Gilead.  "See, I'm your friend!"

She's famous, she helped start Gilead with her speeches and her books, I'm pretty sure he's hoping she will be as useful dismantling it as she was setting it up.  Also, remember, she's not under arrest, she cut a deal.

Fred?  They want him for information into "the black hole" that is Gilead.  He's being played as well.

[mamadrama]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He's playing Serena, to use her in the take down of Gilead.  "See, I'm your friend!"

She's famous, she helped start Gilead with her speeches and her books, I'm pretty sure he's hoping she will be as useful dismantling it as she was setting it up.  Also, remember, she's not under arrest, she cut a deal.

Fred?  They want him for information into "the black hole" that is Gilead.  He's being played as well.

Nah, I don't buy it.

In a show with good writing, that's the game he'd be playing. 

In THIS show I'd bet money on a future romance and redemption arc.

[AnswersWanted]

11 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I didn't understand that either. They're not obligated to be there and Moira obviously didn't want to, so why did she? "Will you bring Holly to see Serena?" "No." See how easy that is? Serena is no one to Holly. It's clear that Canada doesn't recognize Serena as Holly's mother (which she isn't), so she has no standing to ask and they had no obligation to do it.

I can ABSOLUTELY understand why Luke and Moira would want to see the Waterfords to cuss their asses out, but they don't need Holly for that.

Tell the truth. 

This show is trying so hard to force this Serena motherhood/baby angle it's become a seriously unfunny joke at this point 

Moira and Luke know nothing about June's plan, they are well aware she's in constant danger and under threat of torture or death, yet they got wrangled into this "deal" which gives Serena access to Holly, bishop please. 

And if the US is only offering access to Holly to get Serena's cooperation, then why the hell did she get to see the baby already? 

That should have been a reward after she did something for them first, and it would need to be something big and meaningful. 

She hasn't given either government shit to work with yet she's already gotten her prize, to be around Holly. 

What kind of shitty long game are they supposed to be playing here? 

Serena should be dangling on a hook, being made to work for this "deal".

She's already proven to be a highly untrustworthy traitor, a selfish manipulator that is only looking out for herself, how can they even trust she has anything real to give them?

She obviously didn't arrive with a secret USB drive hidden in her bloomers or a laptop stashed in her cloak. 

She brought them Fred who now hates and despises her. If they were smart they would have tried to keep Fred in the dark about her betrayal, to try and get him to talk, to work with them on pretence it could spare Serena or the both of them a certain end. 

This whole plan is just another rushed hacked job from these writers who just want to "skip" ahead to the parts of the story they care about, and they don't care what they have to write, or ignore has already been established, or just how stupid must a character become to get them there. 

Frankly, the way I see it, all the sweet talk and baby time is just filler shit the show came up with to give Yvonne more screen time, as usual.

Edited August 8, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[Anela]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

Nah, I don't buy it.

In a show with good writing, that's the game he'd be playing. 

In THIS show I'd bet money on a future romance and redemption arc.

Yes, this is what I think they're going for, too, and I don't like it. It would be nice if Spy guy is playing her, but I don't expect it. 

[angora]

When June didn't call for help when she found Eleanor, I was screaming, "Lawrence's prime directive is getting Eleanor out of Gilead!! What's the over/under on him still helping you if Eleanor's dead?" And then when I saw Aunt Lydia at the funeral, I thought, "Shit, June, a commander without a wife doesn't need a handmaid, did you think of that?? Better hope that plane becomes before they reassign you!"

Samira Wiley is a treasure, and it's criminal how little this show has taken advantage of her talents. When she was reading Serena for filth, I loved that little moment when Holly started babbling and Moira turned to her, lit up, and babbled back for just a second before continuing her seething take-down of Serena.

Side note: I just started rewatching Once Upon a Time, and now, reading this thread, it occurred to me how similar the show's presentation of Serena is to OUAT's presentation of Regina as the show went on, especially when it comes to Serena-Holly and Regina-Henry. I mean, sure, rape/enslavement and dark magic/mass murder, but look, she just loves "her" child so much!!!! Don't you just feeling the sympathy welling up in you?

[Joana]

So, another person whose death she contributed to. She's going to match Arya's kill list soon. 

The show has now crossed that line when it becomes so enamoured with its main character that not only does all logic stop applying to them, but all the other characters need to constantly acknowledge the awesomeness of our hero. The first 15 minutes were like those awful late seasons of Sex and the City with Carrie being told how faaaaaaabulous she was by her gal pals no matter what crazy shit she did. 

It's disgusting that they let Serena anywhere near that baby. Also, why the hell were Moira and Luke explaining themselves to Serena and Fred. "That's uncalled for"? SERIOUSLY? Screw you, show.

[Joana]

Also, if I ever get arrested for anything, I want to have a prison cell like Fred's. 

- "So, what did you do about the fertility crisis har har?" 

- "Uhm, I made a child, unlike you"

How was  that not Luke's response??!

Edited August 8, 2019 by Joana

[jrbarry]

Quote

1.  Just a pet peeve of mine, but this series is about one person, June.  It is The Handmaid's Tale.  It is June's story and not all the ancillary characters on the show.  June's story is being played out in Gilead and not in Canada.  The fans who want some kind of wider story with lots of "fill-in-the-blanks" about history, what's happening everywhere outside the Boston area of Gilead, what led to the founding of Gilead or more of what's happening in Canada because of the super acting job of a minor character, are missing the point of what the story is.  It is one person's story, June's.

2. I think we all have too fond of thoughts about Eleanor Lawrence.  Certainly she was remorseful for what her part was in creating the living Hell that is Gilead. But, she is culpable just like Serena and the other wives who played along.  Committing suicide was her sacrifice to at least try to help a few kids escape Gilead.  I don't blame June for "letting her go." 

3. I think the show is excellent and complaints about it being poorly written are not on target.

[Joana]

17 minutes ago, jrbarry said:

2. I think we all have too fond of thoughts about Eleanor Lawrence.  Certainly she was remorseful for what her part was in creating the living Hell that is Gilead. But, she is culpable just like Serena and the other wives who played along.  Committing suicide was her sacrifice to at least try to help a few kids escape Gilead.  I don't blame June for "letting her go." 

What? I don't get this comparison at all. Serena didn't just "play along with Gilead". She actively participated in its creation. She campaigned for it. She had alligned herself with Sons of Jacob long before they took over the country. She worked for their goals. She may not like what she got in the end, but it was the work of her hands. OTOH, there's absolutely no evidence that Eleanor ever wanted any of this, on the contrary. In fact, she even actively resisted the new system the way she could, by not participating in "the ceremony", for example. And not treating lower ranked women like dirt in general. 

I mean, if death is appropriate punishment for her "crimes", I can't even begin to imagine what the fitting fate for Serena would be.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Joana

[ferjy]

5 hours ago, Anela said:

If they're letting Serena be around the baby, I don't want to see any of that - or this American guy helping her out. 

Oh you’ll want to see this scene. Baby was not happy to be in Serena’s arms. 😁

Moira was good too. She even silenced Agent Prick with her “Fuck You!”

[ferjy]

10 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Scientologists. They only care about their steps to superior wisdom and the next planet the y are going to "fix" with their messages of self healing, making money and abusing people. It is no surprise she doesn't grasp anything beyond her cult. Those things are not what a superior soul cares about. I say this very seriously, no snark here.

Tom Cruise is a Scientologist too isn’t he? Pretty well dead air in that noggin too.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, Joana said:

Also, if I ever get arrested for anything, I want to have a prison cell like Fred's. 

I was thinking of heading to Toronto this weekend and creating a disturbance so I can spend a couple of days in a cell like that. Mini vaca!

[ferjy]

40 minutes ago, jrbarry said:

Just a pet peeve of mine, but this series is about one person, June.  It is The Handmaid's Tale.  It is June's story and not all the ancillary characters on the show.  June's story is being played out in Gilead and not in Canada.  The fans who want some kind of wider story with lots of "fill-in-the-blanks" about history, what's happening everywhere outside the Boston area of Gilead, what led to the founding of Gilead or more of what's happening in Canada because of the super acting job of a minor character, are missing the point of what the story is.  It is one person's story, June's.

This has been brought up before and discussed at length. The show runners are the ones who expanded from June to a wider story after the book material ran out. Our gripe is that they've made June into some kind of pen-toting ninja that can't be beat, who leaves a kill (or 10) in her wake with every hare-brained scheme she comes up with. And those awful face-convulsing closeups! We're so sick of seeing her (what they've made her), that we hope they keep expanding way away from her.

[The Mighty Peanut]

6 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I was thinking of heading to Toronto this weekend and creating a disturbance so I can spend a couple of days in a cell like that. Mini vaca!

I KNOW! That cell is nicer than my apartment and Canada has better healthcare anyway. I just need to marry someone for citizenship and then life of crime here I come. I will only commit nice crimes like writing inspirational quotes where they aren't allowed, it is Canada after all. 

[ferjy]

54 minutes ago, jrbarry said:

and complaints about it being poorly written are not on target.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I maintain mine, that they are writing for a 12-year-old audience, not thinking adults.

[Brn2bwild]

I wonder if another reason June didn't want to get help for Mrs. Lawrence was because she feared if Mrs. Lawrence was admitted to the hospital, Commander Lawrence would want to wait until she was recovered and her fragile plan would be foiled.

Also, did they purposely cast a baby that would look like June?  I don't know that Holly/Nicole necessarily looks just like Elizabeth Moss, but she's also blond and has those big, staring eyes.

[Souris]

22 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I thought it was reckless of June to let Eleanor die. She knew that Lawrence's main motivation for defecting was to get Eleanor out of Gilead and give her access to the treatment she needed. He didn't actually care about the children one way or the other, they were just supposed to be leverage to save himself from a life sentence (or death penalty). With Eleanor gone, nothing stops him from calling the whole thing off.

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I also thought she'd be concerned she's be reassigned.  Now wouldn't be a good time for that.

Still, there is no doubt Eleanor would have spilled the plan in the hospital, especially drugged up.  Or exposed Lawrence.  There was really no choice.

Both those reasons are why I thought it was stupid of June to just let her die. They could have all kept a close eye on Eleanor until the plan finished. As apt as Eleanor was to spill the beans, she was just one variable, one who could be controlled if they put in the effort. Her death could have created other variables, like Lawrence backing out of the plan or June being sent to another house immediately, which June couldn’t control. Just stupid.

While Eleanor obviously couldn’t be taken to a hospital, I thought they could have possibly forced an emetic down her to get her to vomit up whatever drugs were still in her stomach, which could maybe have been enough to save her. (And where the hell did she get enough pills to OD on???)

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, Souris said:

Both those reasons are why I thought it was stupid of June to just let her die. They could have all kept a close eye on Eleanor until the plan finished. As apt as Eleanor was to spill the beans, she was just one variable, one who could be controlled if they put in the effort. Her death could have created other variables, like Lawrence backing out of the plan or June being sent to another house immediately, which June couldn’t control. Just stupid.

While Eleanor obviously couldn’t be taken to a hospital, I thought they could have possibly forced an emetic down her to get her to vomit up whatever drugs were still in her stomach, which could maybe have been enough to save her. (And where the hell did she get enough pills to OD on???)

I think it was a very hard choice to make.  Eleanor was already spilling the plan to people willy-nilly, for example, although her husband covered for her, she blurted the whole thing out to Mrs. Winslow.  Then they barely stopped her when she was heading out the door to go tell others.

It came down to a choice, 52 kids, and all of their Martha-nannies, and Billy at Jezebels, the pilot, Mr. Lawrence, and June all being executed, or saving a woman who wanted to die, in part, to protect those children and Martha's.

It was the only thing she could do probably.  The chances of keeping her contained completely for another week were sketchy at best, especially now that people keep dropping by the house because he's no longer being given a pass from duties.