S15.E10: Week 10

[dleighg]

maybe I'm weird, (and I haven't had many partners) but there are way more important things in a marriage than sexual performance. Especially after you have kids LOL.

[Stats Queen]

24 minutes ago, PhysNerd said:

Christians believe that sex is between a man and woman in the confines of marriage. Having premarital sex is considered adultery because you are having sex with someone who could potentially be someone else's spouse.  Babies (even with birth control) can result from sex, and children who are born outside of wedlock are more likely to grow up in poverty.  If you want to see how bad it is, look at how single motherhood has affected the black community in particular.  Unless one or both partners are infertile, then children are ALWAYS a possible outcome that you need to be prepared for.  Birth control reduces the risk of pregnancy, but it does not eliminate it. 

The more sexual partners you have, the greater risk of divorce.  This consequence obviously doesn't matter if you never marry, but it is something to think about if you consider marriage as a possibility in your life.  Also, when you have multiple partners, it's difficult to not compare your significant other's performance in bed to your past partners.  Many of my friends' marriages fell apart for that reason: their spouse had a better personality than ex-boyfriends/girlfriends, but their exes were way better in bed.  This greatly increased their marital dissatisfaction.  

That’s interesting - can you point me to more information? I was a very devout Catholic who was saving herself for marriage and met my now ex husband at young adult church group. I was a virgin and he was far from that but said he regretted his past. I did have sex with him after we were engaged. To make a really long story short - he sexually, physically and emotionally abused me after we got married.

I will never know that if I had had more physical experiences with other men prior to him, would I have realized how he was as treating me was wrong? I had had a lot of life experiences except intimate relationships with men. I think maybe Hannah has the same experiences - or lack thereof. this was back in 1990 and cultural norms have changed.

On the flip side, my brother in law is almost 50 (much younger than me) and is still single. He would like to be married but he sleeps with women he dates on the first or third date. He’s never going to develop a long term relationship if he doesn’t make an emotional connection first.

So there needs to be a middle ground that makes sense.

[Crs97]

Catholic theology regarding sex and marriage and birth control is too complex for this forum.  Most priests I know recognize, however, that they need to meet people where they are, which means they know many if most couples asking about a wedding are already having sex.  I said before that I am confused by Luke's focus on premarital sex as the main characteristic of a "good Christian," but he wouldn't be the only person I know that believes that.

Edited to add - Stat Queen, I posted before seeing your response.  My post about Catholic theology was not a response to you.  I am so sorry you had that experience.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Crs97

[deSchenke]

4 hours ago, kira28 said:

Hannah was so weird and awkward after her night with Peter. So either she was disappointed in his skills or his gushy I love yous were making her uncomfortable becaise she didn't feel the same way and never wanted to see him again. She couldnt even fake a smile. Hmm. 

It reminded me of Taysha's morning after with Colton.  There were lots of smiles and "umm hmmm"s going on, but little giddiness. Contrast that with her farewell to Jed and she was downright giddy. There was no talk about how respectful Jed was like there was of Tyler.  So I think the windmill sex was not the only sex she had.

What was the actual order of FS dates? I wonder if Luke was before Jed?

[dirtypop90]

4 hours ago, Nika said:

Haha, I can relate and I perceived the situation the same way. The terrible uneasiness of being with someone you were taking yourself into liking. They are so enamoured with you and all you want to do is escape. I learned my lesson years ago. It is impossible and painful to be in such a situation. It gives you a short ego boost but then you feel worse because you are aware that being with this person was an attempt to feel better about yourself. And you only feel worse. It is all rooted in insecurity really. When you are secure you no longer talk yourself into liking people who like you.

Yes.  I thought either it didn’t happen because they just didn’t behave like two adults that had just had sex or the situation was what you described.  She just doesn’t seem like she really likes him.

They just left her stuck in that small airbnb with him.  I couldn’t even imagine the two talking for a long period of time “like I like really Like you and I can’t like wait to like you like what type of like tv do you like watch like giggle giggle giggle :cue sex:  Maybe she had sex with him again to shut him up?

I can actually see her talking through the night with Tyler because he seems like he can lead conversations.  JMO

—

The talk about Hannah being insecure is so interesting to me.  I definitely agree.  It does strike me as off because she won a beauty contest.  So when she says things like it’s hard to believe Tyler would want to date her, I’m like don’t most of the Tylers of the world want beauty queens?  He’s not a Ivy League guy looking for an Ivy League woman.  He’s a hot guy.   I really feel that Hannah is only not on his level because she so obviously doesn’t believe she is.  For instance, I think Hannah is more attractive than Caelynn but Caelynn would not see Tyler as out of her league, neither would Tayshia or Demi or Hannah G.  Nor would they entertain Peter or Luke just because they appear to really really like them.  They have more confidence.

53 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

It reminded me of Taysha's morning after with Colton.  There were lots of smiles and "umm hmmm"s going on, but little giddiness. Contrast that with her farewell to Jed and she was downright giddy. There was no talk about how respectful Jed was like there was of Tyler.  So I think the windmill sex was not the only sex she had.

What was the actual order of FS dates? I wonder if Luke was before Jed?

Peter first.  Luke was last.  Jed and Tyler’s order unclear but I think I read somewhere they were shown in the order filmed.  

Peter also benefitted from being the first fantasy date.  IMO

[Stats Queen]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Edited to add - Stat Queen, I posted before seeing your response.  My post about Catholic theology was not a response to you.  I am so sorry you had that experience.

No apology needed whatsoever and I appreciated your post.

i have been in a wonderful marriage for 24 years, and those prior experiences make have made me a more empathetic and wiser person.

My husband is Jewish, so that’s funny since when I was in 5th grade I wanted to be a priest, My dad told me I could be a nun and I said, but they’re not in charge 😂

[DEL901]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

The talk about Hannah being insecure is so interesting to me.  I definitely agree.  It does strike me as off because she won a beauty contest.  So when she says things like it’s hard to believe Tyler would want to date her, I’m like don’t most of the Tylers of the world want beauty queens?  He’s not a Ivy League guy looking for an Ivy League woman.  He’s a hot guy.   I really feel that Hannah is only not on his level because she so obviously doesn’t believe she is. 

She was a state -level beauty queen and that took her 3 tries.  She didn’t even place nationally.    

Also, when your self worth is based on perceived attractiveness, there is always going to be someone prettier.  

[Stinamaia]

On 7/17/2019 at 7:55 PM, PhysNerd said:

Christians are not supposed to engage in premarital sex according to the Bible. If a "Christian" denomination proclaims that having sex outside of marriage is acceptable, then it is not a true Christian denomination.  

It's clear that Luke is very religious and Hannah is not nearly as religious as she believes.  She believes there is a God and that's the only Christian thing about her.  She doesn't try to live like a Christian.  Trying and making mistakes is one thing, but she doesn't even try.  Hannah needs to be honest about who she truly is and what she wants.  
 

This is one reason people look at some Christians with displeasure.  It seems to me to be arrogant to say what is true Christianity and what is not.  The Christianity I grew up in emphasized love and kindness and regarded each one of us as sinners who needed God’s grace. The humble, the downtrodden, the  outcast, and the poor were dearest to Christ’s heart. Certainly I know that not all denominations believe the same and are much more rule driven, but I can’t regard them as anything but Christian.  That’s God’s judgment, not man’s. 

My opinion is that both Hannah and Luke have twisted certain verses for their own purposes and both have passed judgment on one another. They do not have the same values. Who is more or less Christian doesn’t even enter the equation.  I think Luke sees the husband as the authority in a marriage.  He said that he wanted it to be the way he wanted.  That’s a clear statement that he’s not interested in other input. I think that might work for some couples, but I don’t think it would work for Hannah. 

[XoxoGG]

3 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

Yes.  I thought either it didn’t happen because they just didn’t behave like two adults that had just had sex or the situation was what you described.  She just doesn’t seem like she really likes him.

They just left her stuck in that small airbnb with him.  I couldn’t even imagine the two talking for a long period of time “like I like really Like you and I can’t like wait to like you like what type of like tv do you like watch like giggle giggle giggle :cue sex:  Maybe she had sex with him again to shut him up?

I can actually see her talking through the night with Tyler because he seems like he can lead conversations.  JMO

—

The talk about Hannah being insecure is so interesting to me.  I definitely agree.  It does strike me as off because she won a beauty contest.  So when she says things like it’s hard to believe Tyler would want to date her, I’m like don’t most of the Tylers of the world want beauty queens?  He’s not a Ivy League guy looking for an Ivy League woman.  He’s a hot guy.   I really feel that Hannah is only not on his level because she so obviously doesn’t believe she is.  For instance, I think Hannah is more attractive than Caelynn but Caelynn would not see Tyler as out of her league, neither would Tayshia or Demi or Hannah G.  Nor would they entertain Peter or Luke just because they appear to really really like them.  They have more confidence.

Peter first.  Luke was last.  Jed and Tyler’s order unclear but I think I read somewhere they were shown in the order filmed.  

Peter also benefitted from being the first fantasy date.  IMO

Fantastic comments.

I'm starting to think that Hannah & Peter did not have sex but are following the storyline of the show. I think it's been all set up that way for Peter's storyline for being the potential Bachelor.

More on her insecurities, 

I'm not surprised. In fact most beautiful girls I've known in my life and from what I've seen tend to be more insecure. I think about, for example, Megan Fox. She was stunning but she used to say things about being insecure and scared a lot. I didn't believe her at first and thought it was her way of trying to come across as relatable but no she really was insecure. Explains her constant messing with her face when it needed no messing with. 

The 4 women you mentioned, I agree. I don't see Caelynn or Hannah G keeping Luke around either because like you said, I see them as being more confident. I don't think especially Caelynn, would be running away from Tyler. She would've been all over him from night 1...I truly believe that. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by XoxoGG

[RealHousewife]

15 hours ago, Nika said:

There are many reasons she may be insecure. And participating in beauty competitions doesn't mean she is confident. Many truly beautiful women don't feel the need to do it. They know their value. Hannah is pretty and has a great body but that's all. She is not beautiful in my opinion. Tyler is an objectively handsome guy, she has more girl "next door" vibe to her. Perfect match for Luke. They were compatible truly compatible! 

She may be also unsure about many other things, f.ex. her intellect. Tyler is well-spoken and smart. Hannah? No so much. She is not able to formulate a consise opinion /logical reasoning!  The way she, like, speaks, is like, off-putting. I cannot imagine her holding a more complex conversation about something else than herself and her, like, feelings. It is so hard. Really, like hard for her to, like, speak in full sentences. 

Maybe I am being catty but there's such a difference between her and f.ex. Rachel Lindsay when we consider personality, intellect etc.

1 hour ago, XoxoGG said:

Fantastic comments.

I'm starting to think that Hannah & Peter did not have sex but are following the storyline of the show. I think it's been all set up that way for Peter's storyline for being the potential Bachelor.

More on her insecurities, 

I'm not surprised. In fact most beautiful girls I've known in my life and from what I've seen tend to be more insecure. I think about, for example, Megan Fox. She was stunning but she used to say things about being insecure and scared a lot. I didn't believe her at first and thought it was her way of trying to come across as relatable but no she really was insecure. Explains her constant messing with her face when it needed no messing with. 

The 4 women you mentioned, I agree. I don't see Caelynn or Hannah G keeping Luke around either because like you said, I see them as being more confident. I don't think especially Caelynn, would be running away from Tyler. She would've been all over him from night 1...I truly believe that. 

I think there are different levels of insecurity. There is being so insecure you don’t think you’re pretty enough to compete in beauty pageants, in shape enough to rock a bikini, or desirable enough to be on The Bachelor or Bachelorette, which is probably the average girl. Obviously none of that applies to Hannah. She does have a certain level of confidence in herself physically that the average woman does not. Then there’s the insecurity and pressure that comes with being “the pretty girl.” You know you’re pretty, but you pick apart flaws and worry if you’re pretty enough. That guy approached you only because he thinks you’re hot. Well, what about that beautiful, single coworker he hangs around? Or will he still be attracted to you if you get some cellulite? I think most people have a hard time feeling sorry for someone like a Megan Fox, but yes even the most beautiful people who even know they’re beautiful will be insecure to a degree. I think Hannah is aware she is attractive, but even someone Liz Hurley gorgeous gets cheated on, and the stereotype is that good-looking guys are harder to tame, no matter how pretty or sexy or nice or whatever you are. She might worry, will girls be flocking to Tyler all the time? When we walk into a room, are all eyes on him instead of me? Competitive pageant type chicks may not want a man who’s as pretty or prettier than them. 

I’ve only seen Rachel in interviews, and I agree she comes across as much more intelligent and pleasant. 

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

This is one reason people look at some Christians with displeasure.  It seems to me to be arrogant to say what is true Christianity and what is not.  The Christianity I grew up in emphasized love and kindness and regarded each one of us as sinners who needed God’s grace. The humble, the downtrodden, the  outcast, and the poor were dearest to Christ’s heart. Certainly I know that not all denominations believe the same and are much more rule driven, but I can’t regard them as anything but Christian.  That’s God’s judgment, not man’s. 

I think Physnerd was just answering the  question, "What's wrong with premarital sex?"  not saying it was the most important thing in the world.  Even Luke didn't say that, it was just something he admitted was important to him in his future wife, and the issue was right in front of them.  He couldn't tell if Hannah coveted Miss USA's crown or knew if she had ever done anything to help the poor.

I've moved a lot and been a member of Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, the Church of England and am now Episcopalian and I can honestly say I've never heard a sermon about sex in my entire life. Like your church, the emphasis is on God's grace and forgiveness.  Jesus clearly said the greatest virtue is love, the greatest rule is to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, and that we shouldn't be picking at other people's faults.  Jesus said practically nothing about sex  but he did say this: " I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

That puts me in a perpetual state of adultery because I'm divorced and remarried, but I can only hope he considers the second marriage as a restart since I had barely been trying to live a Christian before that.  That one sentence also implies that he doesn't approve of "sexual immorality" either.   Adultery is one of the Big Ten given to man even before Christ's appearance, and he said he didn't come to change the law, so there's that.

I love my liberal church, we have a congregation full of people living together, divorced people and members of the LBGT community and who knows what other things we can't see from the outside.  Luke's church is much more conservative and for all I know that's a better way to live.  What I can't fault him for is his search for a woman who shares his values.  Saint Paul warned Christians that their marriages will be rocky if they're "unequally yoked."

[Nika]

Do you really consider her beautiful ? By American standards? She has a slim figure and a nice smile, a pudgy face with cute dimples. As I mentioned, I am writing from Europe, so maybe here the beauty standards are different here but she is just an average-looking pretty girl to me. 

Going back to insecurity...

I have been struggling with this and I can see through Hannah's behaviours/attitude. I have been pondering on these issues my whole life, learning about myself and working on myself. 

Hannah bases her self-worth on the level physical attraciveness and nothing more. She constantly compares herself to others (that's the whole idea of beauty pageants).

Hannah is very secure in her body/ sexuality. She likes her figure and has a great body image. It comes at a prize of being on a liquid diet, but that is another conversation. She didn't show the slightest sign of insecurity in this department.

BUT THAT'S ALL.

She doesn't think she is beautiful or "pretty enough".  The constant posing and smiling is exhausting. No resting bitch face here. I think she is pretty realistic about being "pretty" , "cute with dimples and a great smile" and nothing more. Not beautiful. When we talk only about superficial, Tyler is a classically handsome typ and out of her league. She knows it, she surely gave him a vote and he is a 10. Everybody sees it. But everybody knows that there are other things that count, not only looks.

She doesn't even consider these things. It is all about looks for her. However,  she somehow feels that she lacks other qualities, on some level she understands that. She is not well-read/well-spoken, doesn't have a quick wit, is pretty basic otherwise. She has never worked on her personality, humour, conversation skills, character, spirituality (besides skin-deep understanding of faith) ....

She couldn't keep a guy like Tyler. Tyler will get bored with sex, eventually. Then he will can replace her with any other pretty girl with hot body. She is not that beautiful neither that magnetic to keep him. That's why she is insecure around him. I imagine many guys got bored with her quickly. Tylers of this world want a full package and she isn't one.  

Ps. I have struggled by whole life with body image and insecurities about my body. So I can truly admire Hannah's confidence in this area. But I would absolutely go for it with a guy like Tyler! I know that even though I don't have a perfect body, I have a beautiful face and  a ton of other qualities besides looks. I feel fully deserving of Tylers of this world. I would definitely go for it with a Tyler in a FS but I wouldn't make out with him on a message table in my bikini in front of cameras (still, not confident enough about my body to be judged by everyone).

Edited July 20, 2019 by Nika

[PhysNerd]

10 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

This is one reason people look at some Christians with displeasure.  It seems to me to be arrogant to say what is true Christianity and what is not.  The Christianity I grew up in emphasized love and kindness and regarded each one of us as sinners who needed God’s grace. The humble, the downtrodden, the  outcast, and the poor were dearest to Christ’s heart. Certainly I know that not all denominations believe the same and are much more rule driven, but I can’t regard them as anything but Christian.  That’s God’s judgment, not man’s. 

My opinion is that both Hannah and Luke have twisted certain verses for their own purposes and both have passed judgment on one another. They do not have the same values. Who is more or less Christian doesn’t even enter the equation.  I think Luke sees the husband as the authority in a marriage.  He said that he wanted it to be the way he wanted.  That’s a clear statement that he’s not interested in other input. I think that might work for some couples, but I don’t think it would work for Hannah. 

I merely answered someone's question. Nowhere in my response did I demand that other people must believe in Christianity. People are free (at least in the US) to join any religion if they choose. If you choose to be a Christian, Muslim, etc, then you should at least try to make an effort to live by the tenets of your chosen religion. Yes, you will make mistakes, but the point is to try.  I never said premarital sex being a sin was the only important part of Christianity.  There are many things that Christians should try to abide by. Since the post I was responding to focused on sex, I limited my response to sex.  Do not twist my words.  People accuse Christians of being judgmental (some of them are) while being extremely judgmental themselves.   Perhaps non-Christians need to ask themselves why they need Christians to condone their behavior in order to feel comfortable with their own choices. Own your choices and don't expect others to necessarily agree with your choices.  I'm sure I make choices that you wouldn't agree with, and that's ok. Thinking that someone is arrogant merely because they are stating their beliefs is ironically, quite arrogant.  We don't need to think the same way. 

 I think both Luke and Hannah have very twisted ideas of Christianity:  

1) Luke is using religion to abuse and control others.  He is your classic abuser and personally, I don't think he cares all that much about finding a virginal wife. If he did, then he would not compete on this type of show.  The type of people who go on these shows are normally desperate and easy to manipulate, which are attractive qualities to abusers. He is the worst type of guy: the "bad boy" who claims to be a nice, Christian man.  He is about as real as a three dollar bill. 

2) Hannah claims to be a devout Christian, but she really doesn't act like it.  Christians sin just like anyone else, but they at least try to live by the key tenets of Christianity. She needs to really examine herself and her needs.  It doesn't sound like she wants a deeply religious man; she wants someone who perhaps believes in God, but that's it.  I would be shocked if she and her chosen guy lasts more than a couple of months.  Hannah should've been able to see that Luke was not a good guy a long time ago without even having to listen to the warnings from the other contestants.  I bashed Luke, but Hannah is no prize herself.  I had a roommate just like Hannah and I had to walk on eggshells around her.  It was exhausting and I never knew when something would set her off.  These types are ticking time bombs and are mentally unstable.  Hannah shows narcissistic traits just like Luke and is the emotionally abusive type.  I pity any man who marries her. Likewise, I pity any woman who marries Luke.  

Edited July 20, 2019 by PhysNerd

[nutty1]

I don’t want to get into Christian discussions or arguments, but I’ll say this one thing. You don't get to call yourself a Christian but then just cross out the parts of the bible that you don't like. I think this is how society is changing these days. 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Nika said:

Hannah bases her self-worth on the level physical attraciveness and nothing more. She constantly compares herself to others (that's the whole idea of beauty pageants).

Your whole post was spot on Nika, but this is the crux of it. I think Hannah's entire self worth is based on the fact she's a beauty queen. I think she entered pageants because she is insecure, not in her appearance, she's very "all-American" pretty, but because that is all she seems to have going for her.

I still like her, can't help it, and I hope that she watches this season back and sees some really unhealthy patterns in her behaviour and choices. She might not think she's good enough for a Tyler, but she deserves a lot better than a Luke. She just needs to reflect and learn from the horrible mistakes she made during this show. 

[nittany cougar]

10 hours ago, DEL901 said:

She was a state -level beauty queen and that took her 3 tries.  She didn’t even place nationally.    

Also, when your self worth is based on perceived attractiveness, there is always going to be someone prettier.  

The beauty pageant world must be torture.  You are scrutinzed or praised for every difference in height and weight. Not only is there someone prettier, but these ladies cannot even enjoy their unique qualities because they are always being picked on by their state pageant handlers. Their weight is closely monitored, and their hair and makeup chosen by beauty experts.  It is no wonder that Hannah has anxiety issues.

I know a few women who relied on the "pretty girl" identity for their confidence, and it can be psychologically damaging as you age.  This is why I don't believe in beauty pageants without a talent component.

[Stinamaia]

14 minutes ago, PhysNerd said:

I merely answered someone's question. Nowhere in my response did I demand that other people must believe in Christianity. People are free (at least in the US) to join any religion if they choose. If you choose to be a Christian, Muslim, etc, then you should at least try to make an effort to live by the tenets of your chosen religion. Yes, you will make mistakes, but the point is to try.  I never said premarital sex being a sin was the only important part of Christianity.  There are many things that Christians should try to abide by. Since the post I was responding to focused on sex, I limited my response to sex.  Do not twist my words.  People accuse Christians of being judgmental (some of them are) while being extremely judgmental themselves.   Perhaps non-Christians need to ask themselves why they need Christians to condone their behavior in order to feel comfortable with their own choices. Own your choices and don't expect others to necessarily agree with your choices.  I'm sure I make choices that you wouldn't agree with, and that's ok. Thinking that someone is arrogant merely because they are stating their beliefs is ironically, quite arrogant.  We don't need to think the same way. 

 I think both Luke and Hannah have very twisted ideas of Christianity:  

1) Luke is using religion to abuse and control others.  He is your classic abuser and personally, I don't think he cares all that much about finding a virginal wife. If he did, then he would not compete on this type of show.  The type of people who go on these shows are normally desperate and easy to manipulate, which are attractive qualities to abusers. He is the worst type of guy: the "bad boy" who claims to be a nice, Christian man.  He is about as real as a three dollar bill. 

2) Hannah claims to be a devout Christian, but she really doesn't act like it.  Christians sin just like anyone else, but they at least try to live by the key tenets of Christianity. She needs to really examine herself and her needs.  It doesn't sound like she wants a deeply religious man; she wants someone who perhaps believes in God, but that's it.  I would be shocked if she and her chosen guy lasts more than a couple of months.  Hannah should've been able to see that Luke was not a good guy a long time ago without even having to listen to the warnings from the other contestants.  I bashed Luke, but Hannah is no prize herself.  I had a roommate just like Hannah and I had to walk on eggshells around her.  It was exhausting and I never knew when something would set her off.  These types are ticking time bombs and are mentally unstable.  Hannah shows narcissistic traits just like Luke and is the emotionally abusive type.  I pity any man who marries her. Likewise, I pity any woman who marries Luke.  

Where I parted ways with you was on the issue of  “not a true Christian denomination.”

I’m secure in my belief system,  but it’s true that i disagree with people acting  in the name of religion that causes pain or humiliation for others regardless of the religion.   

I agree with you about Luke. I think Jed showed some of the same traits too. 

As for Hannah, I’m a bit more charitable. I think she confuses what she should want with what she does want.  She concentrates on how the men make her feel, and any successful womanizer knows how to make a woman feel great.  It’s reading character that gives her difficulty.  I’m not seeing the same hair trigger temper or potential for emotional abuse that you are. 

[waving feather]

Hannah seems to think being "real" is the most important trait in a person. Like as long as you are being "real", any behaviour is acceptable. That is what she was trying to get out of Luke during their first one to one. She was only appeased when he starting screaming like a lunatic. That's being "real" to her. It doesn't matter if you are being crazy or unpleasant. Just as long as you're being "really real" about your feelings and let her be your therapist, she is willing to put up with you. But her acceptance of being "real" ends when you question her behaviour. Then you are just making her "mad". I was on Hannah's side during the Caelynn and Hannah feud but who knows maybe one day Hannah blew something small out of proportion because Caelynn wasn't being "real" in her opinion and/or questioned her. *shrug*

And in her conversation with Peter, she mentioned that she can be moody at times. I mean, everyone is moody at times. But she had to spell it out and Peter jumped to agree with her, so that begs the question of HOW moody is she being when the cameras are not on?

Edited July 20, 2019 by waving feather

[Mabinogia]

9 minutes ago, waving feather said:

Hannah seems to think being "real" is the most important trait in a person. Like as long as you are being "real", any behaviour is acceptable.

That drives me nuts about her. If I never hear the worlds "be real" again I will die happy. 

It makes me wonder, if her husband cheats on her but tells her about it, is that okay? He's being "real", fessing up to his mistake and all. Or maybe he can just tell her up front that he will be cheating on her. Doesn't get more "real" than that.

I don't think this show allowed for "being real". She certainly isn't being "real" with all the guys, she can't. She has to pretend to be interested in them even though It's pretty clear she had her top two chosen weeks ago. Not one of these guys is truly "being real". They can't. They have to tell her what she wants to hear if they want to stay in the game. They aren't allowed, by her own rules, to say what they truly think about the Luke situation so they can't "be real" about that. Luke has actually been pretty "real" with her about his very restrictive believes but she doesn't seem to have listened. Though, in her defense there, Luke "You can't have sex or I'm leaving" did change his tune pretty quickly when she didn't do what he wanted, so maybe he's not being as "real" as he thinks. 

In all their defense, though, I do believe this show brings out the worst in them. I know that, for me, being trapped 24/7 with a group of people I am in competition with and not having any release valve (in my case, when I am super stress/angry/emotional I need to go in my room, turn out the lights, put my music on real loud and sing my out of tune heart out. Without that, who knows what I would do. It is my release. These people don't have one, and they are constantly being prodded into talking about what is pissing them off, what is stressing them out. Having to dwell on what is annoying you is just going to make it so much worse. 

In any other situation I don't think Luke would be as hated as he was here. But the combination of being trapped with him, not having any release other than bitching about him with the other guys, and being made to talk about him with their producers constantly made the whole thing a powder keg. Add in Hannah chastising them and keeping him and I am actually pretty surprised there wasn't any violent outbursts this season. 

I think it's even worse for the lead. At least the guys have each other to bitch to or goof off with, and we've seen evidence that some of them have gotten pretty close (the, was it Tyler and Peter Bachelor Handshake will always be a classic). She is stuck with only a manipulative producer to talk to. She has no BFF there to point out what a controlling dick Luke is, or how Jed is saying all the right things but his body language and actions might be something to pay attention to. 

I can't imagine putting myself through this process. Well, full disclosure, I may have had a couple (dozen) dreams about being a contestant on Tyler's season (fingers crossed), but I would never do it in reality. It's just not worth it to me. I can meet guys anywhere and I have no future in internet shilling. 

[JudyObscure]

31 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

when I am super stress/angry/emotional I need to go in my room, turn out the lights, put my music on real loud and sing my out of tune heart out.

Hee! You're the best, Mabinogia.  Please try for Tyler's season! 

[riff-raff]

2 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

I pity any man who marries her. Likewise, I pity any woman who marries Luke.

It sounds like a match made in heaven.  

[RealHousewife]

3 hours ago, Nika said:

Do you really consider her beautiful ? By American standards? She has a slim figure and a nice smile, a pudgy face with cute dimples. As I mentioned, I am writing from Europe, so maybe here the beauty standards are different here but she is just an average-looking pretty girl to me. 

Going back to insecurity...

I have been struggling with this and I can see through Hannah's behaviours/attitude. I have been pondering on these issues my whole life, learning about myself and working on myself. 

Hannah bases her self-worth on the level physical attraciveness and nothing more. She constantly compares herself to others (that's the whole idea of beauty pageants).

Hannah is very secure in her body/ sexuality. She likes her figure and has a great body image. It comes at a prize of being on a liquid diet, but that is another conversation. She didn't show the slightest sign of insecurity in this department.

BUT THAT'S ALL.

She doesn't think she is beautiful or "pretty enough".  The constant posing and smiling is exhausting. No resting bitch face here. I think she is pretty realistic about being "pretty" , "cute with dimples and a great smile" and nothing more. Not beautiful. When we talk only about superficial, Tyler is a classically handsome typ and out of her league. She knows it, she surely gave him a vote and he is a 10. Everybody sees it. But everybody knows that there are other things that count, not only looks.

She doesn't even consider these things. It is all about looks for her. However,  she somehow feels that she lacks other qualities, on some level she understands that. She is not well-read/well-spoken, doesn't have a quick wit, is pretty basic otherwise. She has never worked on her personality, humour, conversation skills, character, spirituality (besides skin-deep understanding of faith) ....

She couldn't keep a guy like Tyler. Tyler will get bored with sex, eventually. Then he will can replace her with any other pretty girl with hot body. She is not that beautiful neither that magnetic to keep him. That's why she is insecure around him. I imagine many guys got bored with her quickly. Tylers of this world want a full package and she isn't one.  

Ps. I have struggled by whole life with body image and insecurities about my body. So I can truly admire Hannah's confidence in this area. But I would absolutely go for it with a guy like Tyler! I know that even though I don't have a perfect body, I have a beautiful face and  a ton of other qualities besides looks. I feel fully deserving of Tylers of this world. I would definitely go for it with a Tyler in a FS but I wouldn't make out with him on a message table in my bikini in front of cameras (still, not confident enough about my body to be judged by everyone).

Beauty’s definitely in the eye of the beholder. I saw a post saying she’s prettier than Caelynn, but I thought Caelynn was prettier. Wendy Williams also called Hannah “a world class beauty.” So a lot of people do think she’s stunning.

I think Hannah is very conventionally pretty, but I admit when I think world class beauty, it’s more someone like Adriana Lima or Angelina Jolie.

[nutty1]

I find Hannah  pretty at times, other times, not so much. I would not call her beautiful. She looks a lot older than she is. She certainly has nothing to be ashamed of, in relation to her looks. 

[Nika]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I still like her, can't help it, and I hope that she watches this season back and sees some really unhealthy patterns in her behaviour and choices. She might not think she's good enough for a Tyler, but she deserves a lot better than a Luke. She just needs to reflect and learn from the horrible mistakes she made during this show. 

I like her as well! Don't get me wrong.. I see a lot of teenage me in her! She is definitely a good-hearted person, loves the attention, is lively& sweet and her insecurities made her a bit dear to me. I felt for her in the whole Tyler dilemma. It was sad to watch...

She is just so superficial and I highly value intelligence/complexity/character in...well, humans. Well..

I cannot grasp the media calling her a role model of any kind (spiritual, moral, feminist, beauty...)

I think she is pretty alright. A sympathetic, flawed girl doing her best and I cheer her on but ... That's all I got.

PS. Who in Italy/France would be considered beautiful is Cassie from Colton season. She was a natural , classic beauty,  had those sublime facial features 😉

Edited July 20, 2019 by Nika

[riff-raff]

Even bad seasons are good seasons.   I've enjoyed the interesting and varied posts here about what makes a person insecure, good-looking or religious.

My take away from this seasons is that they ended up with a perfect storm in the form of Luke and Hannah.   It was a volatile mix of two very intense and immature people put in a very unnatural situation designed to stoke and exacerbate extremes., 

Taking Luke first.  From almost the first minute he claimed to be in love with Hannah.  Having such deep emotions for a total stranger is, IMO, not normal.  Couple that with the fact that Luke is a very high energy, intense person, his professed love was like a hot laser beam focused squarely on Hannah.   It would have sent me running for the hills.  But I'm not Hannah.

For Hannah, that laser beam of Luke's attention was a wondrous thing.   It make her feel good, secure.  She was attractive and wanted!   She said this week that Luke was the closest thing to "love at first sight" she had ever experienced.  It was sizzle or his intense desire meeting her intense need to be loved.  That energy and intensity he exudes was not a problem for her, as she is the same way.   Her giving Luke the first impression rose sealed things in Luke mind.  He was right!  She was one!   There could be no other reality for him.    The show would have unfolded very differently, I think, if she had not given Luke the first rose.

It was never going to be a stable connection, particular in a situation like this.  As Hannah gained confidence and began enjoying other men, Luke's confidence that he had found the one, took on an increasingly desperate quality.  His attentions became exhausting, his need for Hannah to validate their love more vocal.   At the point Hannah knew she was developing real feeling for others, she should have cut Luke loose.  And, she did try.  But a combination of production pressure and Hannah's own desire to feel Luke's "sure thing" affections drew things out far too long.

I don't think either Luke or Hannah are awful people, just immature and exhausting.  Luke is rather hard-headed and too intense for my liking, but I did not see enough to make me conclude he would be an abusive and controlling husband.  

What I enjoyed least about the Luke and Hannah show was the dog-piling on Luke by the remaining contestants.  I've never enjoyed seeing a group of people ostracize and demean an individual, even the the individual in question has some issues.   It is an ugly group dynamic and it made me think less of the men.  Having Jed call out Luke as liar and manipulator was particularly rich.  Tyler went from hot, to not, for me when he belittled Luke for his height.  Garrett came across as a pot-stirrer and tattle tale.  Again, I blame the environment and production in part, for this.  I am not looking forward to the MTA.  I would love it to see some human grace and charity all around to close out the season, but that is not going to happen.  

[RealHousewife]

1 hour ago, Nika said:

I like her as well! Don't get me wrong.. I see a lot of teenage me in her! She is definitely a good-hearted person, loves the attention, is lively& sweet and her insecurities made her a bit dear to me. I felt for her in the whole Tyler dilemma. It was sad to watch...

She is just so superficial and I highly value intelligence/complexity/character in...well, humans. Well..

I cannot grasp the media calling her a role model of any kind (spiritual, moral, feminist, beauty...)

I think she is pretty alright. A sympathetic, flawed girl doing her best and I cheer her on but ... That's all I got.

PS. Who in Italy/France would be considered beautiful is Cassie from Colton season. She was a natural , classic beauty,  had those sublime facial features 😉

I forget, what exactly is Hannah insecure about? I know she's mentioned being insecure and having flaws, but I don't remember her ever saying anything specific. Was it regarding her looks, intelligence, or personality in general? As I said, I don't find her particularly relatable or unique for being insecure, especially because she's got a lot more confidence than the average woman. It takes a certain amount of "I'm a catch" to be on a show like this (and talk down to the men), and even in pageants, you don't always stand there and look pretty. You have to be comfortable speaking in front of a bunch of people, answering all kinds of questions, and oftentimes have to show off a talent. It's a whole lot more a swimsuit competition. 

I think Hannah is probably perfectly nice and lovely in an everyday interaction on a superficial level. I don't think she's particularly nice to date or get close to. Maybe she will be with a little age. For now, she seems to think Hannah. 

I did find Cassie beautiful, and yes, naturally so. She looked like a blonde Megan Fox. I also thought Hannah G was disgustingly cute. She also was sweet and charming. They were probably the standout beauties of Colton's season for me. I thought Hannah B was pretty, but I was shocked they picked her over Hannah G for Bachelorette for a number of reasons. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by RealHousewife

[Nika]

Riff-raff, I agree with every word you said! 🙂 Great analysis.

For me it was lust at first sight more than love. As you said, she wanted to be loved so much and was crazily attracted to him physically (puzzling to me).

I have experienced love at first sight so I am gonna defend the concept though! The difference is that in my case it was not based on visual chemistry exclusively like between Hannah-Luke. There was also an instant connection, chemistry (intellectual one plus a shared sense of humour).. it was really unbelievable to me that the moment we sat next to each other and started talking, it was just "it".  The conversation was flawing freely and we were both shocked by it. It was not a "I want to rip your clothes off" type of connection.

With Hannah and Luke, the more they got to know each other, the worse it made things. With my "love at first sight", the feeling was growing steadily and there was no conflict. Also, we went from flirting and banter gradually to deeper topics, it was a natural progression. We didn't discuss faith at the first date. I believe that for Hannah, besides looks, faith was the basis for this connection with Luke. 

I sadly have to admit that I didn't see her "click" with anyone on this show like this. And I feel for Luke, for if hadn't he screwed it up,  he would be happily dating her now. She would have chosen him , 💯 🙂 Do you remember how she told him that she had no issue with his aggressive behaviours towards LukeS? It was scary to hear but it turned her on! That's the manly man she wants. 

I also believe that her present hate towards Luke is a testament to the depth of her feelings for him. Not much indifference there 😉

Edited July 20, 2019 by Nika

[call me ishmael]

3 hours ago, PhysNerd said:

13 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

This is one reason people look at some Christians with displeasure.  It seems to me to be arrogant to say what is true Christianity and what is not.  The Christianity I grew up in emphasized love and kindness and regarded each one of us as sinners who needed God’s grace. The humble, the downtrodden, the  outcast, and the poor were dearest to Christ’s heart. Certainly I know that not all denominations believe the same and are much more rule driven, but I can’t regard them as anything but Christian.  That’s God’s judgment, not man’s. 

My opinion is that both Hannah and Luke have twisted certain verses for their own purposes and both have passed judgment on one another. They do not have the same values. Who is more or less Christian doesn’t even enter the equation.  I think Luke sees the husband as the authority in a marriage.  He said that he wanted it to be the way he wanted.  That’s a clear statement that he’s not interested in other input. I think that might work for some couples, but I don’t think it would work for Hannah. 

Read more  

I merely answered someone's question. Nowhere in my response did I demand that other people must believe in Christianity. 

But you did say "Christians believe" I think.  Stinamaia was objecting to defining what all Christians believe.  But there has been a wide range of attitudes among Christians since the primitive church about sex and marriage.  Some were banished as heretics of course.  But still it is a religion with a pretty diverse history on these issues.  No one said you said everyone had to be Christian.

[RealHousewife]

2 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

For sure!  The constant smiling, which appears totally contrived and exaggerated, takes away from her looks, in my view.  If it were not for this posing and her entitled-personality, I'd likely think she was beautiful at this point, since, at first glance, I thought she was very pretty, with great hair, a vibrant complexion and a lovely figure.  Her attitude has just made her unattractive to me, since I feel a person's revealing of their true self can make them appear truly beautiful or somewhat annoying to look at, and for me, in her case, the latter is true.

How much do you want to bet that literally NONE of the men at the "tell all" will say a peep about any of her character flaws?  It will be all unicorns and roses and, "oh, she is SOOOO amazing..." and "she deserves the whole world..." and, "whoever gets her is the luckiest guy on the planet..." 

blobbity-blah

Ditto! I also found her more attractive before her personality rubbed me the wrong way. 

[Nika]

8 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

For sure!  The constant smiling, which appears totally contrived and exaggerated, takes away from her looks, in my view.  If it were not for this posing and her entitled-personality, I'd likely think she was beautiful at this point, since, at first glance, I thought she was very pretty, with great hair, a vibrant complexion and a lovely figure.  Her attitude has just made her unattractive to me, since I feel a person's revealing of their true self can make them appear truly beautiful or somewhat annoying to look at, and for me, in her case, the latter is true.

I think what you are saying is the definition of being "beautiful inside and out" . In Italy we have 2 ways to describe a person and there is a subtle difference: bella persona - sb who is beautiful inside and out &  una persona bella - more literally, sb who is  physically attractive. 

Hannah doesn't feel quite like that and she feels unwrothy of Tylor. Unfortunately, she isn't aware enough to realize why. Her solution will be to wear more revealing clothes, get a personal trainer or change her make-up routine, not to work on other attributes than looks. Or maybe she will have a look at this forum! 😉

[StatisticalOutlier]

17 hours ago, Stats Queen said:

On the flip side, my brother in law is almost 50 (much younger than me) and is still single. He would like to be married but he sleeps with women he dates on the first or third date. He’s never going to develop a long term relationship if he doesn’t make an emotional connection first.

That might be specific to him because it's not impossible for everyone.  I was in my 20s in the pre-AIDS era.  I know quite a few people who turned what could have been just one-night stands into long-term relationships.  Some very long term--two different couples from back then are still married today.

[dirtypop90]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Beauty’s definitely in the eye of the beholder. I saw a post saying she’s prettier than Caelynn, but I thought Caelynn was prettier. Wendy Williams also called Hannah “a world class beauty.” So a lot of people do think she’s stunning.

I think Hannah is very conventionally pretty, but I admit when I think world class beauty, it’s more someone like Adriana Lima or Angelina Jolie.

Well, no, she’s not a world class beauty like Fox or Jolie.  But that’s 99% of women.  LOL But Tyler isn’t Brad Pitt either.  I think Hannah is more attractive that the average woman I see in real life, same with Tyler and the average guy.  

I think her genuine smile and dimples add a lot, not the fake smile.

With the right styling, she can wow.  But unfortunately more misses than hits this season.  Like wtf was she wearing during Luke’s fantasy date?  Matter of fact, all her looks sucked except maybe during Jed’s?  Simple is more for her.  Simple, slick hair, and solid black, silver or white dresses, little jewelry, not too much makeup.  I actually think she did better styling herself during Colton’s season.  She looks a good decade older than she did last year.

Did anyone see the MONSTROSITY she is wearing in the promos for the rose ceremony next week?  What is that? It must be a dress but the top looks like a bathing suit AND did I see heart earrings?  Fire everyone.

[Kiss my mutt]

Luke is looking for a Christian version of a stepford wife and if he beats his wife for her “transgressions” it will be because god told him to in the shower. 

[JudyObscure]

I agree that Hannah doesn't have any resting bitch face.  Her face rarely rests at all it's either an ear to ear beaming smile or furious anger.

It's either, "Tell me how you feel!"

 

Or:

 

[Nika]

Oh, hello, Apollo Sun 🙂

Judy, I could bet Hannah's statement from the second meme is at least one "like" short 😄

Btw I have to say that I have been lurking for a long time and this is the best forum online to discuss this show, which is my guilty pleasure, so I finally decided to join the conversation.  Additionally, being mid-break-up, it has been somehow cleansing to watch and great to read your smart discussions and take my mind off things.tnx ! 

[RealHousewife]

2 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

Well, no, she’s not a world class beauty like Fox or Jolie.  But that’s 99% of women.  LOL But Tyler isn’t Brad Pitt either.  I think Hannah is more attractive that the average woman I see in real life, same with Tyler and the average guy.  

I think her genuine smile and dimples add a lot, not the fake smile.

With the right styling, she can wow.  But unfortunately more misses than hits this season.  Like wtf was she wearing during Luke’s fantasy date?  Matter of fact, all her looks sucked except maybe during Jed’s?  Simple is more for her.  Simple, slick hair, and solid black, silver or white dresses, little jewelry, not too much makeup.  I actually think she did better styling herself during Colton’s season.  She looks a good decade older than she did last year.

Did anyone see the MONSTROSITY she is wearing in the promos for the rose ceremony next week?  What is that? It must be a dress but the top looks like a bathing suit AND did I see heart earrings?  Fire everyone.

I agree, most women aren't Fox or Jolie. I do actually find Tyler prettier to look at than Brad. I think Brad is an incredibly cute guy and actually find him sexier than Tyler, but that's only because I actually am more attracted to men who are boyishly cute, the way Brad was when he was younger. I don't find him beautiful the way I find Tyler beautiful. Tyler has more of a "manly" and old-fashioned look to him- the kind of guy who'd stop me in my tracks because he's so beautiful and looks like an old Hollywood movie star. His facial structure, eyes, lips, his perfect body, he's undeniably very handsome to me, even if he's not necessarily my archetype. I almost admire his looks the way I admire a beautiful woman because he is that pretty. But again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I know Luke's got issues and he's short, but I think he's handsome. And shady or not, Jed and Peter are also attractive in a boy next door way the way Hannah is a girl next door beauty. When I see Tyler, I think oh my God you're gorgeous! I think that's where another poster was coming from. If you walk into a room with him, HE is the arm candy everyone drools over. Some women would be cool with that (I wouldn't mind lol), but a lot of women prefer being the prettier one in the relationship. 

I don't remember what she's wearing next week! I'm curious now. lol

44 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree that Hannah doesn't have any resting bitch face.  Her face rarely rests at all it's either an ear to ear beaming smile or furious anger.

It's either, "Tell me how you feel!"

 

Or:

 

Exactly! lol I'm sure her resting face is lovely, but it doesn't appear often. 

[Nika]

ITA about Tyler! An old Hollywood type. I would love to see more of him, not necessarily in reality TV world. Plus, he looks to me more mature, 35. He has the same quality to him as Jon Hamm from Mad Men (I read somewhere that being 25 he looked 40).

I think a woman who looks like Cassie wouldn't be threatened by his looks 🙂 Hannah is Jennifer Aniston to his Brad Pitt, she would always feel less pretty. Only an objectively beautiful woman or a very secure one would feel OK dating him. 

[Mabinogia]

25 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

If you walk into a room with him, HE is the arm candy everyone drools over. Some women would be cool with that (I wouldn't mind lol), but a lot of women prefer being the prettier one in the relationship. 

And I think that is why he intimidates Hannah. If, as many of us are suspecting, her confidence is heavily based on her looks, I think she would struggle being with a guy that turns heads. What, then, is she supposed to do? If she expects to be arm candy then she can't really be with a guy she thinks is going to overshadow her. 

I don't find Luke attractive in the slightest, though I guess I see why others would. He has way too much tension in his jaw and there is something weird in the shape of his face, like it's a moonface or something. (He also reminds me of a guy I work with who is a total dickhead so that doesn't help). Jed does nothing for me personally but if he had a better voice, I could easily see country fans swooning over him. Peter is adorable, but not exactly sexy. 

I think, with a more easy going personality, Hannah would be stunning. There have been a few casual, natural moments where she took my breath away. They were moments when she seemed to forget she was being filmed, that she was in this process and that she was being judged. When she gets out of her head and just relaxes she is quite beautiful. Sadly, those moments are rare. 

And I have reached my shallow quotient for the day. 😉

I am biased towards Tyler because most of the movie stars I find gorgeous were filmed predominantly in black and white. I love his classic movie star look. 

[Crs97]

7 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

On 7/19/2019 at 12:02 PM, Nika said:

 Tyler is an objectively handsome guy

HARD disagree. I kept thinking you all were talking about someone else and I was mixed up about names, because I find Tyler actually hard to look at I think he's so homely. Truly, mileage varies.

[nittany cougar]

I find Tyler very handsome.  The problem I see with Tyler is that he is on the show for self-promotion.  Regular working people do not pay for headshots such as that photo posted by Crs97.  

From the first one-on-one when he was "comforting" Hannah,  I got the feeling of some cheesy guy who is trying to get a part on Days of our Lives or General Hospital.  He was just too slick and seemed like a soap opera character. The Instagram photos add to my suspicion.  I am over him and his stupid poses and faces and derpy demeanor.  

If he wants to be a model or actor, he should move to NY or Los Angeles and start going on castings and stop playing the brooding guy part on a reality show.  Sorry, he just bugs the shit out of me.  I realize a lot of people go on for publicity, but his acting is crappy and cheesy.

Nick Viall got a few acting jobs from the show, but I don't know of any long-term roles for him. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by nittanycougar
Tyler and Taylor are not the same

[nittany cougar]

sorry double post

Edited July 21, 2019 by nittanycougar

[DEL901]

23 minutes ago, nittanycougar said:

I find Tyler very handsome.  The problem I see with Tyler is that he is on the show for self-promotion.  Regular working people do not pay for headshots such as that photo posted by Crs97.  

From the first one-on-one when he was "comforting" Hannah,  I got the feeling of some cheesy guy who is trying to get a part on Days of our Lives or General Hospital.  He was just too slick and seemed like a soap opera character. The Instagram photos add to my suspicion.  I am over him and his stupid poses and faces and derpy demeanor.  

If he wants to be a model or actor, he should move to NY or Los Angeles and start going on castings and stop playing the brooding guy part on a reality show. 

Nick Viall got a few acting jobs from the show, but I don't know of any long-term roles for him. 

I actually think he is a model in New York.  He came home when his dad got sick to help the family. 

[Nika]

Well, of course Tyler is the ultimate wrong reasons guy. He was a model from what I learned and he wants to advance his career. I wasn't surprised at all to find out about that. Aren't most of them like that? Everybody with a job that has to do with social media is like that. There were a math teacher guy, Mike (he is in banking?), Luke S ( political consultant?)and I think they were there to actually find so-called love. The rest of them, well. I thought Peter as a pilot with a career not based on the number of likes was there also for love but he seems to be a bit of fame-whore I think. Remains to be seen after the show. 

Rachel Lindsay no longer practises law so I think she also was aspiring to have a media career after all. That's a shame because I would respect her more if she remained who she was before the show maybe with occasional media appearances related to her field (law) , not only bachelorette reviews etc.

[nittany cougar]

39 minutes ago, Nika said:

Well, of course Tyler is the ultimate wrong reasons guy. He was a model from what I learned and he wants to advance his career. I wasn't surprised at all to find out about that. Aren't most of them like that? Everybody with a job that has to do with social media is like that. There were a math teacher guy, Mike (he is in banking?), Luke S ( political consultant?)and I think they were there to actually find so-called love. The rest of them, well. I thought Peter as a pilot with a career not based on the number of likes was there also for love but he seems to be a bit of fame-whore I think. Remains to be seen after the show. 

Rachel Lindsay no longer practises law so I think she also was aspiring to have a media career after all. That's a shame because I would respect her more if she remained who she was before the show maybe with occasional media appearances related to her field (law) , not only bachelorette reviews etc.

Thanks Nika.  I guess we are going to see this more and more on the Bachelor franchise.  I feel like Peter might be more genuine since he flies for a major airline.  He has put years of hard training into his profession and is probably more intelligent than 90 percent of the guys on the show. That reminds me more of Travis, who was a doctor.

According to Rachel's public listing on the Texas bar, she works with a Miami law firm in the practice of entertainment law.  It sounds like she has dumped the idea of being a media personality.

Edited July 21, 2019 by nittanycougar

[Just Carol]

I share the minority view that Tyler is not good-looking from the neck up.  

Also, as a Jewish person, I am increasingly uncomfortable with proclamations here from Christians about all sorts of things.

I am looking forward to Monday's episode after which hopefully we will have lots of FUN things to dissect and talk about that do not include religious doctrine.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Just Carol

[Mabinogia]

It would be very hard for someone with a "real" job, meaning 9-5, have to show up and do their work to get paid, not a commission type job, or freelance to be on this job. I know I would have to take a leave of absence without pay and given what I would be going away for, there is a chance they would tell me not to come back. 

Because of that, you are going to get mostly very young people who are just starting their careers so they can afford to lose their low paying job, or people who are looking to get into either instagram sales or entertainment. 

Given how fake and "produced" this show has become, only an idiot would come on purely to find love. That is not Production's goal anymore. The audience has proven to them that they don't care about the happy ending, the ratings are in the 'drama'.

So yeah, none of these guys are here for the "right reasons", Hannah wasn't here for the "right reasons". I would say that ship sailed years ago. They are all here for some level of self promotion. My guess is, Tyler = advance modelling career, Jed = launch a music career, Luke = spread the word of Shower Jesus, Peter = I think he just wants to become part of the Bach Nation and get more tail. (Seriously, of the final four he is the one I think is most likely a player. I can't quite say why, it's not any specific thing he's said or done, just an overall impression.) I think Hannah is after a broadcasting career like a host on some E Network celeb-news type show. I think Tyler and Peter will succeed in their goals. Hannah might, she is very E Network host-like. I think Jed will crash and burn because he's just not talented and Luke has done more damage than good to his cause. 

[Nika]

When you have your own business/ partners or a good rapport with your boss, I believe it to be possible to quit your job for a while. OR if you have some savings and simply can afford not to work for a while. I could do that as I run my small business and have a pretty flexible schedule. It is 4 months only, right ? I have some savings so if I really wanted, I could go it and my business would not suffer a bit / I could outsource it to my partner for a short period.

I believe nowadays less and less people are slaves to their careers. Being single = being free, no kids to feed, less family-related obligations, independence. 

I think people who work on a commission or are freelancers / business owners can actually do it! Less and less people work 9-5 nowadays and people over 30 usually have already some financial security so I actually don't find it an obstacle to casting more "right reasons" people.

I would love to see an edition with successful professionals in their late 20s/30s who are really looking for love, not a career boost. 

I personally would enjoy the extra attention & accept event invitations  but I would never be into becoming a "media personality" / quitting my job. That is ridiculously funny, to quit your whole life and become a " bachelor franchise expert" like Nick Vial or others.

Ps. I still think Rachel quit her job and moved to LA to pursue media career. Hers and Hannah's are the only seasons I have watched and I kinda got into them so I keep an eye on Rachel . She keeps law stuff in her bio to keep up appearances. I saw her on countless you tube bachelorette-related channels. That's all she does now. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Nika

[JudyObscure]

On 7/21/2019 at 10:07 AM, Just Carol said:

Also, as a Jewish person, I am increasingly uncomfortable with proclamations here from Christians about all sorts of things.

I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.  I think we Christians are being more vocal about it this year because both Hannah and Luke have talked about it and it's popped up a lot in the show.  I'm sure not trying to say the Christian way is the best way, just trying to correct what I see as  some misunderstandings.  I would guess if the lead was Jewish and someone said he was hypocrite because he filmed on the Sabbath, other Jewish people would be explaining that not every Jewish person is Orthodox, etc.

Edited July 22, 2019 by JudyObscure

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, Nika said:

Ps. I still think Rachel quit her job and moved to LA to pursue media career.

No she didn't. Rachel and Bryan lived in Dallas for a year after her season ended while she remained with her law firm all the while pursuing a career in sports entertainment, something she has been very open and vocal about. And unlike many who come on the show and suddenly decide they can be some actor or media personality, Rachel did have a history in Sports Management/Entertainment, because that's what her Bachelor's Degree was in, before she then got her Law Degree.

Late last year she officially quit her law firm, which she was also open about, to pursue her sports entertainment career full time and she and Bryan moved back to Miami, so he could work on his own chiropractic/health and fitness practice. Rachel was open about her and Bryan considering moving to LA at one point for the opportunities but in the end decided against it. 

Quote

Well, of course Tyler is the ultimate wrong reasons guy. 

Nah I'd say the ultimate wrong reasons guy is still the guy who had a full on girlfriend and worked out a full strategy of how he'd make it to the Final 5 to gain exposure for his music career and then go back home to said girlfriend. 

Yes, Tyler was doing some modeling in New York, which is no secret and he certainly didn't hide on his social media. He also did work on getting a contracting license, has worked on houses and did step up to take over his father's company when his dad got sick as was shared on the show. All very true.

And what's also true is that as this season has been airing, he's used his newfound fame to spread awareness and raise money for his friend's charity that helps inner city kids who lack funding for proper education, food, etc. 

The fact of the matter is this, NO ONE and I'll stress it again, NO ONE comes on this freak show for entirely genuine pure of heart reasons...PERIOD. And anyone who believes otherwise in 2019 is being naive. 

I've always said that Sharleen said it best that many of the contestants come simply for the experience and see where it takes them. Some contestants are just more awful and more vindictive and self promoting than others.

But at the end of the day, most people realistically realize that chances are they may have no connection with the lead or the lead may just not be into them and so they come on with an open mind and just to see how things go. And if opportunities come out of it, great. 

Many contestants have been open about coming onto the show for their brand, for opportunities, maybe wanting a change of pace in their lives but still genuinely falling for the lead. The two isn't always mutually exclusive. Kaitlyn was honest about coming onto the franchise for her brand but I don't doubt for a second that Kaitlyn fell in love with Shawn.

Sean Lowe is one of the biggest famewhores but doesn't mean he didn't fall in love with Catherine. And yes, Rachel has used the notoriety she got from the show to pursue her sports entertainment dream but she still fell in love with Bryan. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[leighdear]

18 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I don't find Luke attractive in the slightest, though I guess I see why others would. He has way too much tension in his jaw and there is something weird in the shape of his face, like it's a moonface or something. (He also reminds me of a guy I work with who is a total dickhead so that doesn't help).

His nose points to the left, and his jaw cocks his chin to the right.  The asymmetry of the center of his face makes him look very wonky to me. 

No, he can't help that, but he also does the slack-jaw, mouth-open, confused and befuddled look WAY to often.  I think it's his way of indicating "Whatever's coming out of YOUR mouth is totally wrong, so just shut up so I can correct you".