S02.E04: Never Knew Love Like This Before

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

The Ballroom community is shaken to its core when a valued member is brutally attacked.

Promo:

Original air date: 7/9/19

[hoodooznoodooz]

I love the Candy actress and character!  I think we’d be friends.

UO: I like her acting. It seems very natural to me.

Edited July 9, 2019 by hoodooznoodooz

[heckkitty]

Aw man. I’m wrung out, but that was an amazing episode. I’ll miss Candy 😢😢

[SimoneS]

That was a beautiful episode. I am sorry to lose Angelica Ross, but she gave a wonderful performance saying goodbye to Candy. I hope this opens up other roles for her. I loved the community coming together and the different characters confronting their difficult relationships with Candy. I also loved the nuanced relationship between Candy and her parents. Giving her that moment to star at the Ball with her lip lynching performance was touching. Stephanie Mills' Never Knew Love Like This Before was an appropriate choice.

I am glad that Pray decided to take ATZ.

Edited July 10, 2019 by SimoneS

[BloggerAloud]

Angelica Ross really turned this episode out. And I loved how they kept Candy a complex character even in the afterlife.

[TrininisaScorp]

I am emotionally exhausted.  What a beautiful, heartbreaking, yet oddly affirming episode.

I loved the devices they used to tell the story with afterlife Candy and everyone's reaction.  The most love goes to that scene in her afterlife (I'm assuming) doing that gorgeous lipsync. 

Angelica Ross did the damn thing!!

Like many of you, I appreciated the complexity of her character, and her relationships.  The women playing Candy's mom looked so much like Angelica!  Her conversations with her parents were good.

In other plots, I'm happy Pray is taking his meds.  I can't take not seeing Billy on my screen. 

ETA:  I seeeee you dancing Miss Leiomy.  I've loved her since America's Best Dance Crew and her crew Vogue Evolution.  They wuz ROBBED that season and got treated, IMO, badly.  They were straight fire, though.

Edited July 10, 2019 by TrininisaScorp

[Dee]

I'm really gonna miss Candy and Angelica Ross.

[Irlandesa]

As much as reviews had hyped this episode, I expected to like it more.  For whatever reason, I wasn't really feeling it until Candy's scene with her father. 

Angelica Ross was very good, though.  As was the actress who plays her co-mother.  I loved when she tried to grab things from Candy's funeral outfit.

[LittleIggy]

RIP, Candy! I lost it when she was talking to her parents. 😭

Like Electra, LuLu turned to Blanca in her time of need. Blanca is everyone’s mom! BTW, she looked beautiful in that polka dotted dress. I loved those sequined lapels on Pray Tell’s jacket. Oh, and his red ensemble! 🤩

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Loved, loved, loved the first part of the ep which was Pray Tell in his element for a very extended time.  That final Ball confrontation with Candy was pretty good.  What was unexpected was Candy's declaration that she WAS SOMEBODY gaining traction in the room.  Pray Tell knew he was up against a force he could not beat, so he finally ended it.  

The "ghost" device was a good choice, imo.  For me, the best one was with her parents.  The Beatles' "She's Leaving Home" came to me in a very deep way.  The break was not all on them.  Not even close.  The tragedy of it all sure was in that moment.

The smartest piece was Pray Tell's understanding as to why he was so dismissive of Candy.  Mirrors are not typically liked by us humans.  Revealed truths are harrrrrd, y'all.

That spare Friday night dinner before they were all sent out searching?  White Castle for the win!

[Cotypubby]

Oh man I totally lost it when her parents showed up and the tears kept coming until the end. 😭😢 Loved Candy’s lip sync afterlife sendoff. 

This season has been so much more emotional than last year!

[justmehere]

Seriously, this show. What a phenomenal way to deal with such a hard subject. I'm really sorry Candy won't be around anymore, but the show had to deal with the issue. 

I loved the afterlife device - wonderful writing for each of the encounters and great performances. As others have noted, the moments with her parents were the best. I was holding it together pretty well until then but lost it when her mother turned to look at her.

Also loved the lip sync send off. Not a single awkward Candy move in sight! 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved that we got to see so much dancing in the opening scene. Then we had the delightful contrast of Candy awkwardly imitating Madonna's Vogue video.

OMG, a Puttin' on the Hits shout out! I loved that show.

Although I'm sad to lose one of the main cast members, this episode was a very touching and realistic depiction of loss and grief. Even though Candy's murder was stark and violent and brutal, the aftermath of the community coming together to mourn her death was so positive. They might be at each other's throats at the next ball, but they all put aside their petty beefs to pay their respects to Candy, which I loved. I'm also glad that we got to see each of the characters have their last moments of closure with her.

I know that in tv and movies, scenes are often shot out of order but I really hope that the lip sync scene was the last one they shot because it was so wonderful.

[BloggerAloud]

I have to give this show credit for the way they set this up. When Pray Tell referenced that conversation that Lulu and Candy had at a funeral in episode one of this season, I legit gasped. The conversation had been so comedic and light that I never thought of it as foreshadowing of any sorts for things later.

Also just realized that the cabaret of season one had Stephanie mills' "Home" and this season we had Never Knew Love Like This Before for the funeral.

Quote

I know that in tv and movies, scenes are often shot out of order but I really hope that the lip sync scene was the last one they shot because it was so wonderful.

Angelica Ross in an interview Entertainment Weekly said it was the last scene she shot with everybody so it was her goodbye to the cast.

Edited July 10, 2019 by BloggerAloud

[Ohwell]

I had a hard time watching this until the end.  It was a great send off, but I thought it could have been shortened.  I know you can never be too dramatic or overwrought when someone you love dies in real life, but for a television show, I just thought it was too much.

[Guest]

Well, Candy definitely went out with a bang trying to shank Pray with a butter knife in a diner. This episode was depressing as fuck, but had good intentions. I'm going to push back a little against the glowing reviews and say the execution was a little self-indulgent and ham fisted. It makes since that Pray would hallucinate/be visited by Candy because he feels guilty about their recent antagonism (same applies to her parents), but spending a third of the episode on half a dozen characters having individual sage wisdom sessions from the Ghost of Candy was definitely a case of diminishing returns emotionally. What is this, A Christmas Carol? And since when were she and Angel so close? And talk about the irony of helping your friend cover up a murder one week and becoming the body the next.

I liked that they thought to redo her hair and makeup (but didn't complain to the nice undertaker) and of course her post-mortem lip sync swan song.

[ClareWalks]

57 minutes ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

And since when were she and Angel so close?

I don't know how close she and Angel were, but I think Angel felt particularly terrible because she knew it could easily have been her who was murdered by a john.

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I'm going to push back a little against the glowing reviews and say the execution was a little self-indulgent and ham fisted. It makes since that Pray would hallucinate/be visited by Candy because he feels guilty about their recent antagonism (same applies to her parents), but spending a third of the episode on half a dozen characters having individual sage wisdom sessions from the Ghost of Candy was definitely a case of diminishing returns emotionally. What is this, A Christmas Carol?

I just wanted to quote this part because you expressed my feelings about the episode better than I ever could. : )

And yes, I definitely got A Christmas Carol vibe.

I did like her Stephanie Mills send off at the end though.

[Blakeston]

This subject matter is about as intense as it gets for me, but I don't think they pulled it off as well as they could have.

For one thing, throughout the series Candy and especially Lulu just seemed to serve whatever role was convenient for the writers. (Are they friends to Blanca and Elektra, or are they hellbent on humiliating and antagonizing them? And do they even like each other?) It's a little weird to see a deep analysis of their friendship, when we saw so little of their friendship when Candy was actually alive.

I'm not sure it was a great idea to do two Very Special Episodes about death in a row, either.

And I didn't think the scene with Candy's parents was earned. Awww, how sweet, they're being given validation for the love they gave their daughter! Even though they only decided to come to her funeral at the last minute, and her mother calls makes a big point of referring to her as "he."

On the plus side, good for the writers for finally acknowledging that those trophies would have to cost a ton of money!

Edited July 10, 2019 by Blakeston

[Dee]

4 hours ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

And since when were she and Angel so close?

Angel & Candy bonded over being non-curvy girls during Season 1 and Angel was genuinely happy for Candy when she placed first in the Juicy Body category.

[nilyank]

Did I miss it, but did Elektra had a scene with Ghost Candy?

I admit to crying once the parents showed up with their grief and we found out that Candy was seen by them at one point or another growing up.

[DrSparkles]

Lawd. My dog died unexpectedly a year ago today, so I’ve been all in my feelings for a week, and then this episode?? Literal sobbing at the end. 😭😭😭

Also, the crowds for the balls are incredible!

ETA: if Billy Porter doesn’t get an Emmy for this episode, heads will roll!

Edited July 10, 2019 by DrSparkles

[mtlchick]

Snap!  En Vogue! Madonna!  I loved music in 1990. 

"I love that damn song!"  I had to check if Sandra Bernhard and Madonna were still close friends and it seems like they weren't for a very long time and it's only recently that they're at a place where they are cordial again.  I guess that was her peace offering to her through TV. 

Pray Tell eating tons of butter to "flush the virus out of the gut" reminded me on how some parents are making their kids ingest tons of odd things to "cure" autism. 

The matter at hand; I did have to chuckle that the girls had to give Candy's corpse a makeover and I thought Angelica was great.  But as a few said, the Ghost of Candy visiting that many people dragged it out longer than it should have.  I don't mind it as a plot device, but that was way too many ghost conversations. 

[SimoneS]

I also loved the scene of Pray Tell with the other MCs meeting for breakfast to discuss the Ball. I wondered before about how they afford those trophies and now we know. 

I was glad that the community rallied around Candy when she was telling Pray Tell where to get off although I agreed with him that her Madonna impersonation was sad.

[kieyra]

Well, dang. I got about 15 minutes in and came to post about how glad I am I gave this show a chance despite Ryan Murphy, and what a gift Pray Tell (the actor and character) is ... and accidentally spoiled myself on Candy’s death. No one to blame but myself, I guess the show has been pretty wholesome so far this season and I wasn’t expecting the thread to be a big risk. (At the beginning, the episode seems like it’s going to be more focused on the ongoing Madonna effect, and Candy is still mainly comic relief. I just watched the scene where she tries to convince the MCs about lip-sync, so I assumed that was setting up some later arc for her where it turns out to be the thing she’s fantastic at.)

Oh well, off to watch the rest—I don’t actually know how it plays out. 

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, nilyank said:

Did I miss it, but did Elektra had a scene with Ghost Candy?

She didn't which surprised me. I wonder if there was a scene, but it was cut or maybe they decided Candy's relationship with Lulu and the others was more important.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

A Sorkin-level bit of genius from Murphy in this ep was the callback to Hart Island.

Where would Candy have ended up but for the intervention of Blanca and Co.?

This has got to be the script submitted for Emmy consideration.

[kieyra]

I missed some faces in the crowd at the farewell ball. I didn’t see Elektra, but I did see Jiggly Caliente, who seems to have done some cameos already. (Former RPDR contestant.) I was also looking for Trace Lysette, who I spotted in a recent ball scene. I think her character is part of the Wintour crew? Either way I love seeing all these familiar faces.

I know this show isn’t supposed to have a 1:1 relationship with Paris is Burning, and that just because we’ve now seen one trans murder similar to Venus Xtravaganza’s doesn’t mean everyone else is now safe. But I can’t help hoping this means Angel is in the clear and I can stop worrying about her a little bit. (I suppose with the modeling gigs she’s not having to turn tricks anymore.)

Speaking of RPDR, that was the show that introduced me to a lot of things having to do with gay, trans and drag culture. I ran across it randomly during its second season, and had NO clue what I was even looking at. I then became hooked throughout what I think of as its glory years (peaking with a phenomenal season six—I went to DC during pride weekend that year to see the top four perform and met Bianca Del Rio), but have lost interest in the post-Instagram seasons.

Pose is giving me a way to enjoy a lot of these stories and performers again, and the fictional take is working surprisingly well for me. And Pray Tell is unbelievable.

Edited July 17, 2019 by kieyra

[apollonia666]

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

No one to blame but myself, I guess the show has been pretty wholesome so far this season and I wasn’t expecting the thread to be a big risk.

Wholesome? The last episode had a drugged-out guy choke to death on his own vomit while suspended from the ceiling of a BDSM club! 😄 

[kieyra]

23 minutes ago, apollonia666 said:

Wholesome? The last episode had a drugged-out guy choke to death on his own vomit while suspended from the ceiling of a BDSM club! 😄 

Point taken. I forgot about that amidst all the messages about family. 

[RealReality]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Damn it, I was totally blindsided.  I thought one of the MCs were going to get attacked.  And then....dead?

Damn it, I really liked candy!

But, maybe it was worth the sacrifice because I think this was one of those rare rare episodes that struck me deeply and I'll remember for a long time.

Candy's last lip sync scene damn near had me in tears. 

Damn it. 

[RealReality]

On 7/9/2019 at 8:58 PM, LittleIggy said:

RIP, Candy! I lost it when she was talking to her parents. 😭

Like Electra, LuLu turned to Blanca in her time of need. Blanca is everyone’s mom! BTW, she looked beautiful in that polka dotted dress. I loved those sequined lapels on Pray Tell’s jacket. Oh, and his red ensemble! 🤩

That red ensemble was everything!  He had a matching bag! Yass please Billy Porter.  And then he was giving me Haitian dandy realness.

[Dee]

I HATE the manufactured drama between Pray Tell & Candy.

[RealReality]

21 minutes ago, Dee said:

I HATE the manufactured drama between Pray Tell & Candy.

I just didn't understand it.  It's why I'm glad they finally had ghost candy and pray tell talk.  

And I felt like it touches the edges of an issue I've heard bits and pieces of.  In essence, black women sometimes feel like the gay community have adopted (appropriated?) some of their words and looks and mannerisms.  And I thought PT and candy ghosts discussion was an interesting take.

[AgentRXS]

Beautiful episode. At first, I was like "Why Candy?" but I get it. RM and crew chose a character that was memorable and liked so that the audience would feel what the characters feel--remorse and frustration over Candy's potential being cut short. It had to be someone the audience was invested in but not a main character. Angelica Ross pulled it off beautifully.  I actually cried in the scene with her parents and I rarely cry over television.

The violence against trans women (especially if they are of color) is often overlooked by the media and the women almost never get justice through the criminal justice system.  I hope this episode educated some folks and helped them realize that they are people too and their lives mattered.

The only (very small) complaint that I have about this show is all the actresses have had enough hormone therapy that they can easily "pass" for cis women.  I really wish they had an actress or two that was more obviously in transition, as that was more realistic in the socioeconomic status of the people and time period they are supposed to represent. Just look at some of the women in Paris is Burning or other docs of the time.  Probably will never happen in Ryan Murphy's world.

Edited July 11, 2019 by AgentRXS

[lovett1979]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

I HATE the manufactured drama between Pray Tell & Candy.

Isn't everything on a TV show "manufactured drama"?

I had not understood all the animosity Pray seemed to have towards Candy, so I was very happy to see the ghost scene (honestly, the only one that really needed to happen). It made his problems with her make so much more sense. And also seemed similar to a lot of the issues that Billy Porter has had to deal with during his career, which made that scene quite personal.

I really appreciated that the show finished with the (awful) statistic that about how many trans women have been murdered in the last 3 years. It would be easy to watch this episode and think "well, but that was 30 years ago" but no, this is still happening, and still being ignored by society at large. 

[Dee]

2 hours ago, lovett1979 said:

I had not understood all the animosity Pray seemed to have towards Candy

That's the thing, Pray didn't have animosity towards Candy. He never went out of his way to diss her any worse than anyone else. The idea that deep down he was intimidated by her is laughable.

[nilyank]

Sure Pray picked on Candy but it was usually after she looked silly most of the times at the ball.

[Ohwell]

Candy, bless her heart, seemed to be clueless (or perhaps stubborn) at times regarding the requirements for the ball categories.   I thought that's why Pray picked on her.  She just wouldn't/couldn't come right. 

[ClareWalks]

5 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Candy, bless her heart, seemed to be clueless (or perhaps stubborn) at times regarding the requirements for the ball categories.   I thought that's why Pray picked on her.  She just wouldn't/couldn't come right. 

For sure. She showed up this episode in the Trade category (hot sexy dancing MEN) in a Madonna bustier!

[Dee]

1 hour ago, nilyank said:

Sure Pray picked on Candy but it was usually after she looked silly most of the times at the ball.

Exactly.

Also Pray actually cheered for Candy when she won one of the categories in which she stubbornly kept attempting to participate.

Which is on top of Pray complementing Candy, repeatedly, about regularly winning the categories for which she was more suited.

[SailorGirl]

On 7/10/2019 at 5:56 PM, DrSparkles said:

ETA: if Billy Porter doesn’t get an Emmy for this episode, heads will roll!

This. Just . . . this. From start to finish. At the beginning of the funeral, I was hoping Pray would sing, but it felt right that he didn't. 

Agree with everyone saying that it was sad but uplifting at the same time. And a topic they had to address sooner or later.

Was there a time in the eighties  when there was a serial killer targeting the trans community? Angel made the comment that sixteen girls had been killed in just a few months. I was curious if that was one of the historical reference this show incorporates so well.

Candy's dad. I love that they showed at least one parent who was willing to be open to accepting who their child was. Too bad for the mother who realized too late what really mattered. What a different place the world would be. . . 

Can we just give Billy Porter all the Emmys now and be done with it? 

Edited July 11, 2019 by SailorGirl
because hatred and murder are not limited to a single decade.

[Coltee Gal]

1 hour ago, SailorGirl said:

Can we just give Billy Porter all the Emmys now and be done with it? 

Facts! 

[kieyra]

The thing I wondered about Candy, even before this episode, is whether her character was an archetype of the ball scene, meaning that one person who tries every category even if they’re terrible at it. I know there were scenes in Paris is Burning where the MC is definitely reading someone who is not doing great, but nothing like that.

But at the same time, it feels like a real thing that would happen, a real person who would stubbornly just keep trying and trying and never backing down, even when it just aggravated everyone. 

[DrivingSideways]

I'm really sad that Candy is gone, I didn't see it coming and even though the show veered toward cheesy, the pure charm of the actors and actresses really carried the day, as usual.  Candy's final scene was magical and she should definitely earn all the Emmies.  I also love Sandra Bernhard, Billy of course, and Mj Rodriguez just has so much HEART... I love this actress and she always absolutely kills it, I am always rooting for Blanca.

With all of the talk about Madonna and "Vogue", are we going to see a Madonna cameo this season?  

[Scarlett45]

I enjoyed the episode, but I think it would’ve been better placed a few episodes later after we had more time to see Candy in her own element. If I recall the biggest storyline she was involved in was the corpse coverup just last episode as a poster said up thread. 

I did love that the undertaker honored Candy by doing the embalming for free, even though she did look like Angel’s Aunt!! The corpse makeover on the fly was well done. Reminded me that my own great aunt made me promise to make sure she looks good for her viewing after her death, because they often don’t get the makeup right on black corpses and we look grey. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

14 hours ago, nilyank said:

Sure Pray picked on Candy but it was usually after she looked silly most of the times at the ball.

14 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Candy, bless her heart, seemed to be clueless (or perhaps stubborn) at times regarding the requirements for the ball categories.   I thought that's why Pray picked on her.  She just wouldn't/couldn't come right. 

14 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

For sure. She showed up this episode in the Trade category (hot sexy dancing MEN) in a Madonna bustier!

As MC, Pray Tell's job was to keep the ball running smoothly, enforce the rules/requirements (meaning not allowing people to participate in categories that they are clearly not qualified for), and provide commentary. He read Candy frequently because she did things like show up dressed as Madonna for the trade category. In cases like this, he was doing his job as MC - making it clear that she did not meet the requirements for the category and providing commentary for everyone else.

Pray's role at the ball was similar to that of a school teacher. He had to manage the chaos, herd cats, tell people when they were not following the rules, etc. And in that sense, I can see why he got frustrated with Candy because her repeated attempts to compete in the wrong categories was like a kid constantly disrupting the class. When you deal with the same kid pulling the same shit over and over, you start to lose your patience when they do it again.

At least when you're a teacher, you know you only have to put up with this kid's behavior until the end of the school year and then they will move on to annoy another teacher. But there's no end of the school year for the balls so Pray had been dealing with Candy's shenanigans for ages. It's not surprise that when Candy showed up to vogue in a Madonna outfit in the trade category that Pray's attitude was "Ugh, this bitch again?"

[RealReality]

17 hours ago, Dee said:

That's the thing, Pray didn't have animosity towards Candy. He never went out of his way to diss her any worse than anyone else. The idea that deep down he was intimidated by her is laughable.

But I kinda thought he did.  I think candy had reads that were well deserved, but he seemed to knock her down at every turn.  And those reads seemed much more....involved ......then they were for anyone else. 

Besides the time he singled Elektra out, I don't think he ever turned off the music to chastise anyone else besides candy. 

It was funny and candy seemed strong enough.  

[RealReality]

15 hours ago, Dee said:

Exactly.

Also Pray actually cheered for Candy when she won one of the categories in which she stubbornly kept attempting to participate.

Which is on top of Pray complementing Candy, repeatedly, about regularly winning the categories for which she was more suited.

I thought that was the MC with the silky press.

I don't think we ever saw candy pick up a trophy so I was surprised to learn there were categories she regularly won in.  

I remember PT picking candy apart for trying to enter the body category with a flat butt and then reading her when she tried to get a bigger one.  

I remember thinking that the read on the angel wings was a bit much.  Yeah, they wer low rent compared to Elektra, but they weren't that awful.

[Ohwell]

I thought humorous snarking (or whatever it's called in the ball world) was part of Pray's job as MC, and Candy got her share of it, but he also did it to other contestants if he felt it was warranted.  The difference is that the other contestants seemed to take it well and sauntered off, but Candy always took it too personally and made an issue of it.