S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Sansa's statement was just a riff on the Nietzsche quote, "What doesn't kill me makes me strong."  That's all she was saying.

What I wish she had said was, "If I had gone with you, you would have sold me back to my mother and I would have died with her and Robb at the Red Wedding."

I think that is what Sansa (and Bran talking to Theon and Jaime) were going for.  But, I think the writers overstated things to make it seem like Sansa thought it was good that she was raped and brutalized by Ramsay and that Bran thought Theon and Jaime did nothing wrong because their evil ended up being used for good.   

Great point that Sansa likely would have died at the Red Wedding if she had gone with The Hound.  Although, since she is the "smartest person Arya ever met", perhaps she would have sniffed out the plot and save all the Starks. :)

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Bali said:

Because a Lannister always pays his debts. And Tyrion did promise High Garden to Bronn.

But, Highgarden was not Tyrion's to give.   King Bran or the Realm paid the debt, not Tyrion.  

[Drogo]

6 minutes ago, taanja said:

22 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 What makes you say they've always been portrayed as big lumbering beasts? They've always shown a psychic connection to Dany. How else did Drogon even know she'd been killed? When Tyrion unchained two of the dragons in Mereen, didn't they both seem to understand what he was doing? They even lowered their heads so he could unlock their collars. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Drogon understood Dany better than anyone.

That's like my psychic connection with my cat. Doesn't mean my cat thinks with human logic.

Just like cats and dogs -- they "feel" connection with their owners but they certainly can not be assigned the thought process of human logic. Sorry. 

Exactly.  I see it as additional evidence that Drogon was more than just a dragon like his "brothers."

[QuinnM]

38 minutes ago, taanja said:

I saw nothing that reminded me of Hitler. It is only here that I have read anyone comparing the two. 

https://people.com/tv/emilia-clarke-prepared-game-of-thrones-speech-watching-videos-hitler/

[Snowball II]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't see Daenerys's end as misogynistic.  Every man in the story who has pursued the Iron Throne has met a similar fate, so Daenerys being a woman makes no difference, to me.  I'll sit at the kids' table, by myself.

Tyrion as Hand was puzzling to me, but I fully expected it regardless of what was going on in the story, since Peter Dinklage is a fan favorite.  Bran as king was also meh, for me.  I expect it to make a lot more sense in the books, if they are ever completed (I heard that GRRM is working on various other projects, so who the hell knows?).  While I do agree with a lot of the criticisms surrounding those two things, seeing it unfold onscreen didn't enrage me.  I figuratively shrugged my shoulders and thought, "Well, okay, that could work."

I did not see Grey Worm's decision to sail for Naath as racist, but I am not a person of color, so there is only so much I can add to that particular discussion.  I will say again that Jacob Anderson and Nathalie Emmanuel were terrific in their roles, and that they sold their characters' romance in a way that Kit and Emilia could not.  That's impressive, and they both deserve long careers.

Speaking of Kit/Jon, I wish we had just one scene this season, where he talked to someone other than Dany about his true parentage, and how it made him feel.  It was a huge bombshell that dropped on his life and exploded, and all we ever got was how it related back to Daenerys and her quest for the Iron Throne.  Jon's character deserved more than that.

Anyway, it's been a few days, and even though I have my complaints about the final episode and the final season as a whole, I still can't get pissed off about how it ended.  It was all about tying the lose ends, and it did that.  I could sit here and write essays about how they should have done things, but there is no point in that.  The sun is still shining and the birds are still singing, even though Game of Thrones had a lackluster finale.  Maybe I should start watching Vikings, now that it's over.  I've been meaning to check it out. 😛

[taanja]

19 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

The real miracle is that Grey Worm didn't execute Jon on the spot. 

Right! and kept him around long enough to let his hair grow all scraggly.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Bali said:

I am SO glad that someone else said this. To me, when something awful happens, you have a choice- live as a victim or live as a survivor. Victims ring their hands and whimper about it the rest of their lives, using it as an excuse for everything. Survivors say, "That happened. I'm moving on." I see Sansa's speech as her way of saying, "I'm a survivor." Never- at any point prior did she ever say, "Gee golly. I hope I get to be married to a guy who will rape and torture me." But it happened. She learned from it, whether she wanted to or not. And now, she survives.

2 hours ago, izabella said:

For me, the problem was in her implication that she never would have become a strong person if she hadn’t been raped, and that the rape and abuse was necessary or she would have still been the little bird.

I think you’re both right. The problem, in my opinion, was the wording in the script. I think Sansa was saying she survived because of all the experiences and traumas she endured, and what she learned from them. But the response to the Hound’s very blunt and crude comment which related to her being raped does sort of draw the connection to that particular traumatic event. 

[Butless]

22 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

https://people.com/tv/emilia-clarke-prepared-game-of-thrones-speech-watching-videos-hitler/

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but in the New Yorker article interview with Emilia, she said she was told to study Peter O'Toole from the scene in Lawrence of Arabia,where his blood lust took over, for the one shot where she's deciding if she should hold back or unleash hell on KL. You can literally see her impersonating Peter O'Toole performance, from that moment in the film.

I believe I read GRRM mention LoA with regards to  Dany, years ago. However, in LoA, Lawrence comes upon a deserting Turkish army that has slaughtered a small village, on their way.  It is him seeing the carnage of that village that angers him to spur his men on to kill the Turks, and spare no prisoners. Lawrence doesnt go insane. His blood lust is sated, aand he eventually goes back to being the meek man that he was before his adventures, when the war is over.

Dany's story does not play out the same way, so I dont know why they are justifying their ends for her with Lawrence's (film) story.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Butless

[MJ Frog]

24 minutes ago, Drogo said:

35 minutes ago, taanja said:

22 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 What makes you say they've always been portrayed as big lumbering beasts? They've always shown a psychic connection to Dany. How else did Drogon even know she'd been killed? When Tyrion unchained two of the dragons in Mereen, didn't they both seem to understand what he was doing? They even lowered their heads so he could unlock their collars. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Drogon understood Dany better than anyone.

That's like my psychic connection with my cat. Doesn't mean my cat thinks with human logic.

Just like cats and dogs -- they "feel" connection with their owners but they certainly can not be assigned the thought process of human logic. Sorry. 

Exactly.  I see it as additional evidence that Drogon was more than just a dragon like his "brothers."

And there's also the fact that as mythical creatures they can't really be compared to cats and dogs. We don't know what they think or how much they perceive. For all we know they were doing crossword puzzles in their spare time. I mean, probably not, but, you know.

[Bali]

47 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Highgarden was not Tyrion's to give.   King Bran or the Realm paid the debt, not Tyrion.  

But King Bran (GAWK- I can't believe I just typed that) doesn't give a crappola about anything happening in the kingdoms. He left all of that to Tyrion. So, we're back to a Lannister always paying his debts.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

That's like my psychic connection with my cat. Doesn't mean my cat thinks with human logic.

Just like cats and dogs -- they "feel" connection with their owners but they certainly can not be assigned the thought process of human logic. Sorry. 

I remember Tyrion saying that dragons were really, really intelligent creatures.  Since they are mythical I'm not sure if this means human logic.  But it seems like drogon was able to make some connection between the IT and danys death.

ETA: semi scooped by @MJ Frog

Edited May 22, 2019 by RealReality

[Smad]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Noooooooo, he never played the game. He was the perfect person because he had no ambition and no dog in the game. He simply knew he'd be asked.

There was no winning here. Only duty.

Not in the story I saw. In my headcanon, which we all have to use because D&D can't tell a story, my way of viewing it ties that part of the story together.

53 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Highgarden was not Tyrion's to give.   King Bran or the Realm paid the debt, not Tyrion.

Same difference since Tyrion is running the show. Bran is too busy getting high to concern himself with that stupid stuff. Like ruling and all that nonsense a King is supposed to do.

[taanja]

4 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

And sexist and mysgonistic.

And the woman with dragons is dead, and a white guy gets the throne.

Hey! but he's "special needs" so.. progress!???

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Bali said:

But King Bran (GAWK- I can't believe I just typed that) doesn't give a crappola about anything happening in the kingdoms. He left all of that to Tyrion. So, we're back to a Lannister always paying his debts.

So, in effect, Bronn is really King.  Bran the Boring does whatever the Twisted Demon Monkey says and the Twisted Demon Monkey is scared to death of the sell sword.

I guess Tyrion's answer to Varys' riddle was right. 

[Bali]

22 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

And there's also the fact that as mythical creatures they can't really be compared to cats and dogs. We don't know what they think or how much they perceive. For all we know they were doing crossword puzzles in their spare time. I mean, probably not, but, you know.

They'd have a heck of a time holding the pen.

The dragons in the case of GoT is another case of the show telling me, not showing me. They told me they are intelligent. But they didn't do a lot to show me HOW intelligent. Or at least they weren't consistent with them. It seems like they were either HIGH EQ/IQ like when Drogon comforted Dany after Jorah's death, or just barely above lizards (Uh- one of your dragons just ate a peasant girl).  They were cool, and used to great effect to show Dany's power, but I don't know. I'm not saying this right.

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Bali said:

They'd have a heck of a time holding the pen.

The dragons in the case of GoT is another case of the show telling me, not showing me. They told me they are intelligent. But they didn't do a lot to show me HOW intelligent. Or at least they weren't consistent with them. It seems like they were either HIGH EQ/IQ like when Drogon comforted Dany after Jorah's death, or just barely above lizards (Uh- one of your dragons just ate a peasant girl).  They were cool, and used to great effect to show Dany's power, but I don't know. I'm not saying this right.

I got the feeling they were above like "dolphin / elephant" level of intelligence. THe only place I can think of, off the top of my head, that somewhat demonstrates that intelligence is in S5, I think, where Tyrion and Varys go into the crypts under Mereen without Danerys. They are not immediately roasted, which some people at the time thought mean Tyrion was a Targaryen, but we now know that wasn't the case. Tyrion talks about how he wanted a dragon when he was a boy very softly and tremulously, and the dragons seem to understand he isn't a threat. Their facial expressions seem limited, so we can't tell through anthropomorphism what they are meant to be thinking, but Rhaegal seems to understand that Tyrion can free them from the chains. Tyrion does, Viserion immediately 'asks' Tyrion to do the same.  I know, it isn't exactly like they're down there doing math problems to pass the time, but...I mean I guess I can make the leap. Still, plenty of other opportunities to demonstrate their intelligence. Like having them refuse to go pick up a wight because that shit was a dumb plan. No, I'm not ever letting it go. Rest in power, Viserion. 

[Bali]

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:15 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

It could have been funny, but it just didn't make sense. 

Besides being Hand of the King to Joffrey during the Battle of Blackwater and Hand of the Queen to Daenerys, he was convicted of assassinating King Joffrey and was known to have murdered Twyin Lannister.

His arrest by Catelyn Stark was also one of the key flashpoints in starting the War of the Five Kings.  

He might have been portrayed as a "twisted demon monkey", but he would definitely be mentioned.  

And Tyrion was portrayed in the plays about the "tragedy of Kings Landing". He would have been in the history.

[Butless]

5 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I don’t understand this. Are you saying that a general who is in charge of an army in which a few of its enlisted men commit crimes should be hanged as a war criminal because of those men’s crimes? Or, that Jon should be hanged because the ally he and his troops supported, committed war crimes that he did not know about in advance? 

Jon didn’t enable Dany to  commit war crimes. He tried to stop Grey Worm from executing the surrendered Lannister soldiers. Dany’s heel turn was a shock to everyone and Jon dispensed “justice” on the Northern soldier who was raping the woman.  He ultimately committed murder to prevent further war crimes.

I don’t disagree about how the “brown” people are treated in GoT by the writers, although I in this case took it more as, they weren’t happy hanging around in racist Westeros and wanted to complete Dany’s mission somewhere else. 

As a high ranking leader in her army, they went into a city and committed genocide. It doesn't matter what he wanted or what he thought, he backed the wrong person and gave er a platform to commit genocide. He is complicit. When you wantonly slaughter that many innocent civilians, your head will roll. Lucky  for him, the people left in power after that wholesale slaughter are his family members.

Yes; the brown people weren't happy hanging around racist Westros, because it was written to be racist.  In the end, these people that we  are supposed to be sympathetic to over everyone else, like the  Starks, turn out to be lording over a racist population, are zenophobes and think it's their right to subjugate the "smallfolk."  In a word, they were shown to be real assholes, in season 8.

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

Except the Unsullied and Dothraki were not "put on a ship" and made to sail off.  The Unsullied and Dothraki got onto ships and left the pit of despair that is Westeros by their own accord, as free men. 

I don't know if the Dothraki are joining them, but we know Grey Worm was taking the Unsullied to do great things and help others who can't help themselves, fulfilling a promise to Missandei and continuing Daenerys' earlier legacy. 

They were "put on  ship, etc" by the people that wrote this to be their fate. Just the fact that the Dothraki fate was never mentioned, at all, says how important the "brown" people were in this epic. There's just no getting over the fact that GOT is problematic wrt women and non-white perople. It doesn't make it all garbage. I love a lot about GOT, and the characters, etc. But GOT has it's serious problems.

3 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

For years, Dany used people of color to fight her enemies, and increase her personal wealth and power. Was the story racist then, or only now that she died and Davos offered to make Grey Worm Lord of the Reach with the Unsullied as his bannermen? 

Dany was sold into the Dorthraki tribe, turned out to be able to walk through fire and hatch dragons, and she just happened to gain followers in that part of the GOT world that was relegated to the "brown" people. Had this taken place in Westros, she'd have done the same with all the white people. Why does eveyone keep glossing over te fact that Day was a magical being? Not even Jesus Christ was immune to fire and hatched dragons. Of course she was going to have followers and worshipers!

Only recently, did the aspect of a gleamingly white Dany leading an army of "brown" people become a thing to sneer at because she was deemed a "white conqeuror." That needs to be taken up with GRRM , who wrote this character, years ago. He could have made the Targs "brown," but he didn't.

But again, Dany, seems to be more than just white, and more than just 'human', or whatever they call themselvesin that universe. She is extra. She is magical.

3 hours ago, Bali said:

I am SO glad that someone else said this. To me, when something awful happens, you have a choice- live as a victim or live as a survivor. Victims ring their hands and whimper about it the rest of their lives, using it as an excuse for everything. Survivors say, "That happened. I'm moving on." I see Sansa's speech as her way of saying, "I'm a survivor." Never- at any point prior did she ever say, "Gee golly. I hope I get to be married to a guy who will rape and torture me." But it happened. She learned from it, whether she wanted to or not. And now, she survives.

Words and dialogue are not said in a contextless way. They creators of the show had Sansa raped. And they created the definitive act of having a woman character raped, to further character development. And then they came under a lot of valid criticism for it, because it is lazy, and employed for titilation, and it is wholly misogynist. THEN they had the nerve to have the character say outright that, if it weren't for her rapist raping her, she would have never grown (from being a "little bird").  That's the context. It could only be more blatant and clear if Benioff or Weiss had put on Sansa's wig and dress and played the scene opposite the Hound, themselves, as a fuck -you to anyone who found their schtick to be misogynist crap.

I don't knwo what the OG poster was talking about, when they said that  they got angry when people rightly criticisze these things. People have a damn right to criticize, and especially women have every right to do so.

[taanja]

42 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

And there's also the fact that as mythical creatures they can't really be compared to cats and dogs. We don't know what they think or how much they perceive. For all we know they were doing crossword puzzles in their spare time. I mean, probably not, but, you know.

There was a scene with ... Drogon?.. a couple seasons ago where Dany flies away with him and he brings her to a mountain top somewhere. There are carcasses of dead creatures (obviously old meals) and the dragon just goes to sleep. Like a big lumbering beast after a big meal. No crossword puzzles (really?) no human activities.  Just like a big ole dog after a big ole meal -- he just wanted to take a long nap.

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, Butless said:

Only recently, did the aspect of a gleamingly white Dany leading an army of "brown" people become a thing to sneer at because she was deemed a "white conqeuror." That needs to be taken up with GRRM , who wrote this character, years ago. He could have made the Targs "brown," but he didn't.

I always thought the Baratheons should have been black or brown, what with the whole line being “black of hair and brown of eyes” as it said in the baby record book Ned was reading in Season 1.

[Butless]

22 minutes ago, taanja said:

Hey! but he's "special needs" so.. progress!???

He is not "special needs." He's a damn tree.

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, taanja said:

There was a scene with ... Drogon?.. a couple seasons ago where Dany flies away with him and he brings her to a mountain top somewhere. There are carcasses of dead creatures (obviously old meals) and the dragon just goes to sleep. Like a big lumbering beast after a big meal. No crossword puzzles (really?) no human activities.  Just like a big ole dog after a big ole meal -- he just wanted to take a long nap.

I believe you're referring to right after his rescuing her from the fighting pits (fuck you Hizdahr Zo Loraq, shitty character, can't say it enough)...but I don't think they were old meals. I think he went to sleep because he'd been injured by numerous spears from the GOlden Harpies, and that he'd just expended most of his energy hunting, as he did not attempt to rescue Danerys from the khalasar that showed up right after. 

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, Butless said:

He is not "special needs." He's a damn tree.

So, I always thought Bran would end up in the Stark Weirwood tree because the other 3ER was in a tree, like that’s where a 3ER is supposed to be.  Since that’s not true, why was the old 3ER in the tree?  Is that the only place the old one was safe because of magic and the NK being after him?  I wish D&D had cared to explain anything related to the magic.

[Butless]

4 minutes ago, izabella said:

So, I always thought Bran would end up in the Stark Weirwood tree because the other 3ER was in a tree, like that’s where a 3ER is supposed to be.  Since that’s not true, why was the old 3ER in the tree?  Is that the only place the old one was safe because of magic and the NK being after him?  I wish D&D had cared to explain anything related to the magic.

I paid so little attention to the whole Max Von Sydow as a tree thing, that Im not sure if this really happened, or I just filled int the blanks of my mind, but I thought Max the tree said to Bran that he is dying out and now Bran will be the tree, and that he or maybe Meera said, 'I dont want (you) to be a tree.' That whole thing was  confusing and a bummer.

[CatWarmer]

5 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I like what someone else said (not that we'll ever know) -- that Jon went to Davos and confessed, and Jon was held behind the northern lines for a day or so while things were negotiated with Greyworm at which point he was transferred to the Red Keep prison until a king was chosen.

Yeah, that was me and it does seem the only logical way Jon survived. Jon knew that Davos shared his dismay and they joined together in the retreat from the city center. I don’t think he was looking for absolution or forgiveness or even expected to live, but he was suffering from major PTSD and would have headed for the most calming influence he could think of in that state.

[RoberTee]

13 minutes ago, izabella said:

So, I always thought Bran would end up in the Stark Weirwood tree because the other 3ER was in a tree, like that’s where a 3ER is supposed to be.  Since that’s not true, why was the old 3ER in the tree?  Is that the only place the old one was safe because of magic and the NK being after him?  I wish D&D had cared to explain anything related to the magic.

8 minutes ago, Butless said:

I paid so little attention to the whole Max Von Sydow as a tree thing, that Im not sure if this really happened, or I just filled int the blanks of my mind, but I thought Max the tree said to Bran that he is dying out and now Bran will be the tree, and that he or maybe Meera said, 'I dont want (you) to be a tree.' That whole thing was  confusing and a bummer.

I always thought old 3ER (Max Von Sydow) was Bran himself - 'It's time for you to become me' - and that Bran would learn some secret to destroy the WW. And being the 3ER, time isn't linear for him, he's everywhere, anytime, so he'd have to go back to the tree cave, to make sure he's there when past Bran arrives, to pass him the knowledge on how to defeat the WW. And he's forever stuck in a time loop: he goes to the cave, becomes the 3ER, learns how to destroy the WW, goes back to the past, to be on the cave, to receive himself, passes the knowledge, dies, becomes the 3ER, learns how to destroy the WW, goes back to the past, to be on the cave, to receive himself, passes the knowledge, dies, becomes the 3ER... The greatest sacrifice to save humanity.

[Lokiberry]

20 minutes ago, Butless said:

Dany was sold into the Dorthraki tribe, turned out to be able to walk through fire and hatch dragons, and she just happened to gain followers in that part of the GOT world that was relegated to the "brown" people. Had this taken place in Westros, she'd have done same with all the white people. Why does eveyone keep glossing over te fact that Day was a magical being? Not even Jesus Christ was immune to fire and hatched dragons. Of course she was going to have followers and worshipers!

She just "happened to gain followers"? Did she just happen to wander by Krazny's slave dealership and all the Unsullied ran out and followed her home? Did she kill all the khals, climb on Drogon and tell the rest of the Dothraki, "Well, I'm off to Westeros to get the Iron Throne. See you on the flip side!" No, she used her magical specialness to encourage these people to fight and die for her, help her amass a fortune and gain political power. 

I don't understand how the story can be racist when the Unsullied and Dothraki choose where they want to spend their lives post-apocalypse, but not when the White Savior Lady uses their lives and bodies for her own personal benefit.  

[bluvelvet]

So I just watched the episode and you know what, I liked it!

Pity Jon and Danaerys didn’t have more chemistry, then I would have felt something when he had to kill her.  No one cared who Danaerys killed in the past seasons since they were evil, I really liked how l Tyrion made a good argument using these points  

Felt bad for Drogon though, he’s lost his siblings and his mother. 

So the Stark’s are left standing at the end, seems appropriate. Loved all their endings, felt and that Jon had to go to the nights watch but he left with the wildlings. He will be happy. 

Loved seeing Ghost again and didn’t realize he had lost an ear  

I guess Bran knew he would be King  

Loved Brienne finishing Jaime’d story and Bronn as Master of Coin just seems so appropriate 

I will honestly say that I will miss this show, I do think the last season was rushed but I loved this show and I’m good with the ending. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by bluvelvet

[Butless]

5 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

Pity Jon and Danaerys didn’t have more chemistry, then I would have felt something when he had to kill her. 

Dany coming on to Jon again was the only thing that indicated she was crazy.

[Dobian]

 

 

 

 

3

2 minutes ago, Butless said:

Only recently, did the aspect of a gleamingly white Dany leading an army of "brown" people become a thing to sneer at because she was deemed a "white conqeuror." That needs to be taken up with GRRM , who wrote this character, years ago. He could have made the Targs "brown," but he didn't.

Words and dialogue are not said in a contextless way. The creators of the show had Sansa raped. And they created the definitive act of having a woman character raped, to further character development. And then they came under a lot of valid criticism for it, because it is lazy, and employed for titilation, and it is wholly misogynist. THEN they had the nerve to have the character say outright that, if it weren't for her rapist raping her, she would have never grown (from being a "little bird").  That's the context. It could only be more blatant and clear if Benioff or Weiss had put on Sansa's wig and dress and played the scene opposite the Hound, themselves, as a fuck -you to anyone who found their schtick to be misogynist crap.

Too much about race and gender is injected into opinions about this show based on people's real world perceptions and agendas.  It's a fantasy show in a fantasy world.  It's also set in a medieval time period where things like equality and social justice are at the bottom of the priority list, if they are even on the priority list.  Bran didn't get the throne because he's a white guy.  The person who either sat on the throne herself or controlled it when her children sat on it for seven out of the eight seasons was a woman - Cersei.  One of the seven kingdoms is Dorne, which is the Westeros version of an Arabic culture.  The show itself was never about addressing race or gender issues, and it was never the responsibility of the show to do that.  Westeros didn't need to reflect our real world 21st century values, nor should it.  If people want that sort of thing, there are a lot of shows out there which cater to that.  

Sansa was raped.  It happens.  In a medieval world like Westeros, it would happen a lot and be tolerated and even acceptable in places.  Lots of shows depict rape and get lauded for it.  GoT does it and it's misogynistic.  Sansa said it was thanks to Ramsay Bolton and others that she is who she came to be.  It wasn't a thank you to Ramsay Bolton, there was no admiration when she said it.  She followed that statement by describing what she did to him in the end.  Was GoT saying that a woman has to be raped to become strong and a leader?  No.  Arya wasn't raped.  She turned into a deadly assassin.  Cersei didn't become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms by being raped.  Yara didn't command the Iron Fleet because she was a victim of abuse.  Sansa wasn't like them, though.  She was a wallflower who couldn't stand up for herself.  She had no backbone.  It took a severe trauma to change who she was.  It also seems to be forgotten that Ramsay Bolton did even worse to Theon, a male.  So what happened to Sansa wasn't about gender at all, it was about abuse at the hands of a sadist.  And both her and Theon's stories were about rising above what he did to them and becoming something better. 

[Zuleikha]

I'm not sure how well his appointment as Bran's Hand would go over with the populace now that he's also served as Hand of the Queen that torched the city.  Some of that would stick on him.

As it should. He gave bad advice, sometimes with the selfish motivation of preserving his Lannister family.

I don't understand how the story can be racist when the Unsullied and Dothraki choose where they want to spend their lives post-apocalypse, but not when the White Savior Lady uses their lives and bodies for her own personal benefit. 

The story has been criticized for years for exactly that, so I'm not clear on your point. Personally, I think some of the criticism is off base and some of it is very on target. The sailing away seemed like a cheap way to resolve the issue of Dany's armies and emphasized how much of an undifferentiated mass of brown people they had become.

[PatsyandEddie]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

OK, that makes sense.

Tyrion speaks Valyrian, but his Valryian is a bit nostril.   He probably understood enough to know how troubling it was.  But, I agree that though Jon probably didn't understand a word, he could also tell from her tone that it was not good.   

Jon’s ears perked up when he heard Dany mention Winterfell. It was definitely a WTF look on his face . 

[Bali]

52 minutes ago, RoberTee said:

I always thought old 3ER (Max Von Sydow) was Bran himself - 'It's time for you to become me' - and that Bran would learn some secret to destroy the WW. And being the 3ER, time isn't linear for him, he's everywhere, anytime, so he'd have to go back to the tree cave, to make sure he's there when past Bran arrives, to pass him the knowledge on how to defeat the WW. And he's forever stuck in a time loop: he goes to the cave, becomes the 3ER, learns how to destroy the WW, goes back to the past, to be on the cave, to receive himself, passes the knowledge, dies, becomes the 3ER, learns how to destroy the WW, goes back to the past, to be on the cave, to receive himself, passes the knowledge, dies, becomes the 3ER... The greatest sacrifice to save humanity.

I definitely thought they were two distinct people who were chosen to be the 3ER, and got suckered into being a tree.

[Constantinople]

King Bran's story ends as he's chasing the dragon

[Bali]

Every time someone says, King Bran, I have a harder time convincing myself that it never happened.

[CletusMusashi]

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Too bad LF isn't still alive on the council.  Tyrion, Brand and LF could be "The Imp, the Gimp and the Pimp."   It sounds like Bronn might take on the Pimp role.  

ETA: And Samwell is the Blimp.

I'm pretty sure Nipple Boy inherited the "Whores R Us" chain after LF  died.

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, taanja said:

2 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

And there's also the fact that as mythical creatures they can't really be compared to cats and dogs. We don't know what they think or how much they perceive. For all we know they were doing crossword puzzles in their spare time. I mean, probably not, but, you know.

There was a scene with ... Drogon?.. a couple seasons ago where Dany flies away with him and he brings her to a mountain top somewhere. There are carcasses of dead creatures (obviously old meals) and the dragon just goes to sleep. Like a big lumbering beast after a big meal. No crossword puzzles (really?) no human activities.  Just like a big ole dog after a big ole meal -- he just wanted to take a long nap.

I don't want to get to deep into this, because we are talking about snarks and grumpkins after all. However, Drogon not having the advantage of a table or silverware for his meals is not necessarily an indication of his intelligence, or just how much he understands about the world around him. I mean, I curl up after a good meal too, for one thing. And for another, dolphins are considered to be highly intelligent, and yet all we see them do is eat, play, and make little dolphins. And also: dragons. There are no zoologists or animal behaviorists who can tell us about them. We only have our clues on the show, and the fact that Drogon even knew what the iron throne was and what it meant, says that he probably has a lot on the ball.

And yes, crossword puzzles. It was a joke, and an image that tickled me.

Edited May 22, 2019 by MJ Frog
Random capitalization.

[FierceCritter]

1 hour ago, Butless said:

Dany coming on to Jon again was the only thing that indicated she was crazy.

"They don't get to choose."

[FierceCritter]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

The sailing away seemed like a cheap way to resolve the issue of Dany's armies and emphasized how much of an undifferentiated mass of brown people they had become.

So, what should have happened to the Unsullied and Dothraki then, in your opinion, that would have been acceptable?

Because in my eyes, they had their freedom, nobody was trying to keep them anywhere, and an option was at least offered to the Unsullied.

I can find zero logical reason for the Dothraki to want to be anywhere but back home with their families and the land they knew.

I never saw them as "brown people." I saw them as hired or liberated soldiers, free to do what they wanted when the battle was won. Had Daenerys not gone all "We're gonna keep freeing EVERYONE in the world now!!!" I would have expected them to be all, "Ok. Our work is done here. See ya."

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I always thought the Baratheons should have been black or brown, what with the whole line being “black of hair and brown of eyes” as it said in the baby record book Ned was reading in Season 1.

That would have gotten them an enormous amount of crap too.  So one black/brown man is a drunk who slaps his wife and sleeps around, another becomes a religious fanatic who burns his only daughter for some unseasonable warmth, and the third is a usurper.  Oh, and the boozer is an absentee father to boot.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

So, I always thought Bran would end up in the Stark Weirwood tree because the other 3ER was in a tree, like that’s where a 3ER is supposed to be.  Since that’s not true, why was the old 3ER in the tree?  Is that the only place the old one was safe because of magic and the NK being after him?  I wish D&D had cared to explain anything related to the magic.

Bran's predecessor claimed to have been waiting for him for 1000 years, long past the normal human lifespan. I think it can be surmised that he needed to be rooted in the cave to stay in the human world. Bran's physical body is still pretty young but all he needs to do is find one weirwood cave in the south or plant a new tree to rule Westeros forever once his human body gets closer to an end. 

[Boilergal]

With the super slow long walk by Tyrion to find Cersei and Jamie, I was hoping he would find them, lift whole three bricks off Cersei and she would gasp for air.  Then Tryrion would summon all the fury and rage of being humiliated and tortured by Cersei his whole life and bash her brains in as she was pleading for mercy.    I gave up caring about the episode when it was just Tyrion crying.

The ONLY thing that gets me through the first 4 seasons of Geoffry is knowing he dies a glorious death - I'm not sure I can re-watch the series again with Cersei's smug face knowing she dies a boring death under a layer of bricks.  

The pack survives?!?  Did they forget about Rickon?  

The cinematography the last two episodes was beautiful - it's the nicest thing I can say.

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, Boilergal said:

The pack survives?!?  Did they forget about Rickon?  

[Zuleikha]

So, what should have happened to the Unsullied and Dothraki then, in your opinion, that would have been acceptable?

This doesn't really feel like a good faith question, and I'm hardly the arbiter of acceptable or unacceptable. But real world scenarios suggests that many of them would have elected to stay in Westeros rather than make another overseas journey back. Given the depth of their loyalty to Dany, it's also probable that they would have attacked the Northern army after Jon assassinated Dany (or possibly the Dothraki would have transferred their loyalty to Jon? I admit I'm murky on the early seasons and can't remember exactly how khal loyalty was gained.)

It's also not helpful that the armies appeared to have magical respawn rates, so we never got a clean sense of exactly how strong each of the various armies were at the end.

[Lady S.]

12 minutes ago, Boilergal said:

The pack survives?!?  Did they forget about Rickon?  

Fun fact: the only way Rickon's name came up after his death was when Jaime was pretending to not know Dickon's name. So, yes, his siblings did forget.

[MrsR]

4 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

I admit I'm murky on the early seasons and can't remember exactly how khal loyalty was gained.)

They followed only the very strongest. Frankly, with Dany and Drogon gone, they were left entirely leaderless unless you count Grey Worm the Master of War for all of an hour or so. I don't imagine they would have found GW too strong after losing Dany so fast. 

The Dothraki are a nomadic plains culture with significant, religious and societal locations far away on another continent. There are zero reasons for them to stay.  

[Zuleikha]

They followed only the very strongest.

That's what I remember, but not how "strongest" was determined. Wasn't it by conquest/bloodshed? That's why I was wondering if Jon killing Dany would make him the strongest and thus their new leader.

The Dothraki are a nomadic plains culture with significant, religious and societal locations far away on another continent. There are zero reasons for them to stay.

I'm talking about both Unsullied and Dothraki. There are a variety of reasons some may have chosen to stay. Some, especially among the Unsullied, may see an opportunity in the idea of having their own land. They may be afraid of traveling by ship again, which is a dangerous journey and they're not sailors used to that risk. Some amount of them may simply like the weather and lands and be tired of war and not want to return to Essos as part of a liberating army. 

[Law Mom]

3 minutes ago, MrsR said:

They followed only the very strongest. Frankly, with Dany and Drogon gone, they were left entirely leaderless unless you count Grey Worm the Master of War for all of an hour or so. I don't imagine they would have found GW too strong after losing Dany so fast. 

The Dothraki are a nomadic plains culture with significant, religious and societal locations far away on another continent. There are zero reasons for them to stay.  

Yes, and the Unsullied were tortured since birth to be mindless killing machines who just follow orders. When given their freedom, they all chose to fight for Dany because really, what else would they do, upload their resumes to indeed and get a job in retail? But GW had already made plans to leave Westeros after the war because he found fear love. Presumably the rest, having no one to follow, would get as far away from Dragontown and Zombieland as they can. 

BTW, this also explains why GW didn't execute Tyrion or Jon. He was not ordered to. He would never take in upon himself to do that--it would go against everything he knows. Kill soldiers after they surrender? Yes, on Queen D's orders. Murder slave babies? Yes, because orders. 

[ShellsandCheese]

3 hours ago, izabella said:

I always thought the Baratheons should have been black or brown, what with the whole line being “black of hair and brown of eyes” as it said in the baby record book Ned was reading in Season 1.

That doesn't really work. It's really hard to hide paternity when one parent is black or brown. There are rare instances when someone who is of mixed ethnicity (we will use black / white for this example) may look just white or black - but for the most part, the vast majority will look, well mixed. It would have been damn near impossible for Cersei to pass off Jaime's kids as Robert's if the Baratheon's had been black or brown. 

[MrsR]

6 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Some, especially among the Unsullied, may see an opportunity in the idea of having their own land. They may be afraid of traveling by ship again, which is a dangerous journey and they're not sailors used to that risk. Some amount of them may simply like the weather and lands and be tired of war and not want to return to Essos as part of a liberating army. 

Well if we're gonna play the maybe game, maybe some of them did what you said, in which case why on earth would we see that? It was not their story.