S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Id still argue that the kingdom is more corruptible than before as its now gonna be easy to buy influence if one wants to be king.  And we already see corruption starting with Bronn as master of coin for no other reason than Tyrion owes him a favor. I don't imagine if D and D did that on purpose but gj if they did.  Probably should've made Yara master of ships and Davos master of laws .  Whether its the king after Bran or the King after that one, one of these kings is just going to go lol, no, it's back to hereditary  and the wheel will be rebuilt.

That makes certain sense, but being on the council requires residing in King's Landing. I'm not sure Yara would want that. 

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Gods I love this board.  THAT is some obscure book-lore.  Bravo!

(For those who don't get it, there is a video (by All-Shift-EX, right?) that recently explained that the reason Naarth (Missandei's home island) has no army is because it's infested with a butterfly that carries a fever that is fatal to all but the natives.) 

As such . . . it looks like Grey Worm is sailing to his doom on Naarth.  Oh well, things are different in the TV-verse.

I should hope that's not the case on the show since Missandei was planning to retire there with Grey Worm. 

[MadameKillerB]

What about Grey Worm musing with Missandei about protecting Naath? Is that why the Unsullied are sailing there?

[benteen]

Props on the visual of Dany emerging from the ruins with Drogon's wings "sprouting" from her back.  Brilliant.

[rmontro]

16 hours ago, Dev F said:

I figured it was a ranging party to lead the wildling refugees back to their homes, now that the White Walker threat was over.

I have to admit I'm a little confused as to what happened at the end with Jon's character.  When he first woke up at Castle Black, it looked kind of like they had made him Lord Commander again.  But then he left with the wildlings.  Most people seem to think that he went to live with the wildlings, and that the whole Night Watch thing was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm.

If it was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm though, why didn't Jon just go back to Winterfell?  Or would he have rather been with the wildlings?  Maybe he wanted to leave Westeros so he wouldn't be bothered by his lineage.  Varys had been writing those letters to someone, it would likely be common knowledge by now.  

You seem to be one of the few posters who think he is still with the Night Watch.  And what you say makes sense, but I have no idea what the real answer is.  Maybe D&D have done an interview which explains it?

[Maximum Taco]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

Props on the visual of Dany emerging from the ruins with Drogon's wings "sprouting" from her back.  Brilliant.

The visuals in this episode were spellbinding. 

Cinematography came to play. 

It's a shame writing has been phoning it in for a few years now. 

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

I have to admit I'm a little confused as to what happened at the end with Jon's character.  When he first woke up at Castle Black, it looked kind of like they had made him Lord Commander again.  But then he left with the wildlings.  Most people seem to think that he went to live with the wildlings, and that the whole Night Watch thing was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm.

If it was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm though, why didn't Jon just go back to Winterfell?  Or would he have rather been with the wildlings?  Maybe he wanted to leave Westeros so he wouldn't be bothered by his lineage.  Varys had been writing those letters to someone, it would likely be common knowledge by now.  

You seem to be one of the few posters who think he is still with the Night Watch.  And what you say makes sense, but I have no idea what the real answer is.  Maybe D&D have done an interview which explains it?

Jon forgot he was in the Nights Watch, just like Dany forgot about Euron. 

[rmontro]

8 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Jon forgot he was in the Nights Watch, just like Dany forgot about Euron. 

Just like the writers forgot about good writing.

[spaceghostess]

28 minutes ago, rmontro said:

If it was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm though, why didn't Jon just go back to Winterfell?  Or would he have rather been with the wildlings?  Maybe he wanted to leave Westeros so he wouldn't be bothered by his lineage.  Varys had been writing those letters to someone, it would likely be common knowledge by now.  

 

It would be too public for him to live at Winterfell; news would spread. Besides--dumb writing notwithstanding--I'm pretty sure Jon's absolutely over all the political bullshit that his show iteration was pretty crappy at anyway. He also could do better than having to deal with  Sansa's resting bitchface for years to come. I'm sure it would emerge whenever he had an idea or thought about anything, so why not hang with people who actually have some modicum of affection and respect for him? One of my favorite scenes in the entire series was season six's Sansa/Jon reunion, but man, did things ever go downhill from there.

Edited May 20, 2019 by spaceghostess
typo

[rmontro]

10 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

He also could do better than having to deal with  Sansa's resting bitchface for years to come.

Ha, I was thinking the same but didn't want to say it.  I always liked Sansa until this year, she's turned into such a little snip.  Not only was she b!tchy to Dany, she betrayed Jon's secret immediately after finding out, despite her swearing not to.

[spaceghostess]

18 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Ha, I was thinking the same but didn't want to say it.  I always liked Sansa until this year, she's turned into such a little snip.  Not only was she b!tchy to Dany, she betrayed Jon's secret immediately after finding out, despite her swearing not to.

Yup. People can think all they want that her attitude toward Dany was justified because she saw the writing on the wall (because she learned so much from Littlefinger, yada, yada, yada), but the truly savvy thing would have been to take a page from Margaery's book. The ol' iron-fist-in-a-velvet-glove approach is  so much smarter and way more entertaining. 

ETA, I was really hoping Jon would give a "Meh, whatevs," response to her apology, but nah. I was all "Oh, Jon!" (cue Mary Tyler Moore voice).

Edited May 20, 2019 by spaceghostess
and another thing...

[Heckler52317]

18 hours ago, stagmania said:

No way in hell does Yara Greyjoy just sit there and take that.

Totally agree. Sansa will pay the Iron Price as the reaving and raping resumes on the north

[Heckler52317]

15 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Yara looked pissed and ready to fight and yet I’d think she’d know that Arya is the freaking Night King slayer. Unless she wanted to go out dying with her last words being I tried to kill the Night King Slayer ala Euron. 

I was imagining that a stand up fight between them would be a draw- Yara is tough enough to deliver a lethal blow before she goes down. Arya is a better assassin than stand up fighter

[Heckler52317]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

And then we had Sansa's dumb ass threaten him with her 10 Northerners, lol. Not to mention Yara and the Iron Born being there and being Dany supporters. I really wish GreyWorm had taken Sansa up on her threat and showed her what's what. She really is the new Cersei and gets a pass for all the stupid things she does.

Right? Unsullied, Dothraki and Iron Born against the Northerners who were part of sacking the city? Sansa better get smarter quick- she's going to have her hands full with the fickle north and the Iron Born

15 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Serious question:attack by whom?

Daario for starters. I can see him at least launching a punitive raid once he hears what happened

[Heckler52317]

7 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

There is no way GrayWorm would have let Jon and Tyrion live long enough for a trial. (Even with the jet packs that Sansa and Bran seem to have used to get to King's Landing.)

I was not particularly moved by Tryrion finding the bodies of Jamie and Cersei. And I was not moved by Brienne's attempt to rectcon Jamie's history in the big book of historical assholes. 

So, Bran bears no responsibility for setting the whole tragic chain of events in motion? And never sharing any of his omniscient  information in an attempt to save innocent people? He served up Jon Snow as the fall guy - the supposed rightful heir - and Jon gets shipped off to the north to never marry or have children. 
Bran and Sam ended up doing pretty well for themselves after just a few weeks of getting the Rightful King rumor mill started. 

And lastly, Tyrion  pushing Bran as leader because, instead of gold or weapons,   stories and storytellers are the most reliable means of binding people together? ...what a BS way to try to suck your own dicks, D&D...

Quoting this whole post in case somebody missed it as it is brilliant!

7 hours ago, benteen said:

Sam has been the show's ultimate fantasy wish fulfillment character.  He gets to leave the Night's Watch, he steals his father's family sword (which would have led to his father hunting him down and killing him), he steals from the Citadel and gets away with it. 

Gets the (one of them anyway) hot girl...

[Heckler52317]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

In fact, instead of having Arya ping back and forth between "I am No One" and "I'll always be Arya Stark" in the last few seasons, they could've crafted a real arc for her as she figures out a way to avenge her family after losing her Faceless powers, and then rallies the same powers she's honed to take out the Night King. That would've been more genuinely empowering than Arya always triumphing because she's a magical shapeshifting assassin.

Totally agree! I love Maisie Williams but grew to dislike Arya. You've worded it better than I could- Arya was just OP. Needed a nerf from the assassin/frontline fighter/survivalist parkour champion she was shown as

[Heckler52317]

5 hours ago, festivus said:

I liked the Brienne scene too. I knew she'd be the one to write his page and despite not liking how his story ended, he did do some good things. Brienne saw a different side of him than others did and I think he wanted to be  that person when he was with her. It ultimately didn't work out for him, because that's the way things are sometimes,  but I have no problem with her seeing the good in her friend.  

But no one will read it because she closed the book on wet ink!

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I have to admit I'm a little confused as to what happened at the end with Jon's character.  When he first woke up at Castle Black, it looked kind of like they had made him Lord Commander again.  But then he left with the wildlings.  Most people seem to think that he went to live with the wildlings, and that the whole Night Watch thing was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm.

If it was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm though, why didn't Jon just go back to Winterfell?  Or would he have rather been with the wildlings?  Maybe he wanted to leave Westeros so he wouldn't be bothered by his lineage.  Varys had been writing those letters to someone, it would likely be common knowledge by now.  

You seem to be one of the few posters who think he is still with the Night Watch.  And what you say makes sense, but I have no idea what the real answer is.  Maybe D&D have done an interview which explains it?

My lunch group was arguing about this today, it was super unclear. Apparently D&D said in their loathsome little Inside the Episode series that he’s now the Lord Commander again (of what, you might ask). I choose to believe he’s leaving the wall behind and going to live with the freefolk. 

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, stagmania said:

My lunch group was arguing about this today, it was super unclear. Apparently D&D said in their loathsome little Inside the Episode series that he’s now the Lord Commander again (of what, you might ask). I choose to believe he’s leaving the wall behind and going to live with the freefolk. 

Don't need a genius to know these two understood nothing about the lore. I guess Jon is really looking for snarks and grumkins now.

What they've done to Jon's character is beyond.

Also, let's have Drogon destroy the IT because visual effect -- 2 minutes later Bran is king! Dany was right about breaking the wheel, she just got the wheel she wanted to break wrong.

Edited May 20, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, spaceghostess said:

Yup. People can think all they want that her attitude toward Dany was justified because she saw the writing on the wall (because she learned so much from Littlefinger, yada, yada, yada), but the truly savvy thing would have been to take a page from Margaery's book. The ol' iron-fist-in-a-velvet-glove approach is  so much smarter and way more entertaining. 

Well, Margaery's dead and Sansa survived, so while Margaery's approach may have been more entertaining, it seems Sansa's approach was a wee bit more effective.

[Advance35]

Quote

Well, Margaery's dead and Sansa survived, so while Margaery's approach may have been more entertaining, it seems Sansa's approach was a wee bit more effective.

THIS. While Margaery was awesome and would have been a great Queen, ultimately, she lost.  Whatever the extenuating situation, ultimately her passive aggressive grabs at power left her vulnerable at the worst possible moment, killing herself, her brother and her father..

I like that Sansa knew what she wanted and went after it.  She didn't quail because Jon was in love with Daenaerys.  She stood when the "Queen" did and toed the line, but she wasn't done.  Dany wasn't going to give her the North so she was going to find a way to take it.

One little push of a domino and ...........

[spaceghostess]

34 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Well, Margaery's dead and Sansa survived, so while Margaery's approach may have been more entertaining, it seems Sansa's approach was a wee bit more effective.

Sansa would have been equally dead in Margaery's situation. Actually, she'd have been dead way sooner if LF hadn't gotten her the hell out of Dodge.

Edited May 20, 2019 by spaceghostess

[Minneapple]

12 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Sansa would have been equally dead in Margaery's situation. Actually, she'd have been dead way sooner if LF hadn't gotten her the hell out of Dodge.

In the words of the great Charles Barkley, "if I didn't eat so much I wouldn't be so fat."

Sansa had some help and some luck, but in the end she survived.

[Kate47]

So my confusion for some of this episode was the setting.

Jon goes to see Dany, KL is covered in snow. Tyrion is pulled out of jail, KL is bright and sunny and hot again. 

I couldn't get over it. Then my partner pointed out that King's Landing is actually covered in ash, not snow.

There was enough floating ash to cover Drogon for that once scene.

That shit is *gnarly*.

[Miles]

7 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Still gotta have a place to send undesirables. OR, it was lip service for Grey Worm's sake, with the council figuring he'd never come back to Westeros and follow up.

There has to be a better place to use that free labour though. One that is actually in the six kingdoms.

[GraceK]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Yeah that made no sense. 

[GraceK]

Yeah. Whatever. That was total garbage. 

[QuantumMechanic]

9 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

The only way this would work is if the Kingdoms form a peaceful pact to defend and support each other. 

And we all know how well the Articles of Confederation worked!

[domina89]

One positive thing I will say is that I liked the symmetry of the series beginning with the rangers from the Night's Watch coming through the gate to go beyond the wall and then the series closing with Jon and the wildlings doing the same thing.

[Kate47]

So, IMO, Sansa was never going to learn flattery in the same way as Margery. She tried, with Joffrey, but her resentments and trauma always bubbled to the surface. She's gotten decent at maneuvering, but she's never been good at hiding behind flattery and diplomacy. It's just not her style. And when she has Winterfell back, she doesn't need to bother with that nonsense BS anyway.

This is why I both had issues with and completely understood her reaction to Dany. Of course Sansa doesn't trust a beautiful woman who has won over everyone and is trying to relate to her with shared love and hope. Sansa doesn't have to fake it anymore, and she wasn't that good at it anyway.

One of my huge peeves with this season is that Dany and Sansa have so much in common and, had Dany come at her with a respect of power and met her on that level, I think Sansa could have been one of the few to understand and comfort her when Missandei was executed. Because they only showed us the one conversation where Dany made a misstep by trying to use courtly bonding on Sansa, we were robbed of a more intimate and empathetic interaction.

I'm not saying that Sansa wasn't in the wrong, but that it's def a tragedy that these two women couldn't get along. They made sparks against each other, but I wanted fire.

[anamika]

A day later and I still can't believe how the most useless characters got rewarded at the end while the folks who did the hard work got shafted.

Sansa and the Northerners - bitched and moaned for seasons about Jon trying to get help to save the North and were ungrateful assholes the entire time. Then Jon, Dany, Arya, Dothraki, Unsullied help them defend their home - many dying in the process - and get no appreciation in return. In the end Sansa and the Northerners get rewarded with independence for doing absolutely fuck all.

Bran who just sat under a tree - becomes king for no reason

Sam who did fuck all becomes Maester

Bronn, sellsword was rewarded for not killing the Lannisters?

Tyrion who destroyed Dany's campaign and basically gaslighted her into madness gets to make self righteous speeches and make himself hand of the king

Dany who helped free slaves and build a city for them, who actually fought the NK, halted her campaign to defend the North and defeated Cersei? Mad and dead.

Jon who helped unite the realm temporarily against the NK, got everyone together to defend the North and took down Dany? Banished

The hero of WF who fought, defended her home and defeated the NK? Sailed off to nowhere.

D&D already destroyed the central premise of the show by making the Iron Throne more important than the AOTD.  I don't even know what story the show is telling. That their fan service characters like Bronn get to win in the end?

The only characters who deserved their endings were:

Davos: The consistently good and smart person - he should have been Hand of the King

Brienne: Kingsguard. Fitting

Yara Greyjoy was more deserving of being queen than Sansa ever was. Yara actually stole ships, went to Dany and negotiated independence like an adult, fought in Dany's battles and took back the Iron Islands. She was loyal to Dany till the end. She's an actual ruler.

And in the end she had to sit there and get snapped at by Arya and Sansa. Ugh.

Edited May 21, 2019 by anamika

[Stardancer Supreme]

21 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Yara looked pissed and ready to fight and yet I’d think she’d know that Arya is the freaking Night King slayer. Unless she wanted to go out dying with her last words being I tried to kill the Night King Slayer ala Euron. 

Come to think of it there is a scene missing of Yara being told/processing what Theon did and how he fought hard and saved Bran. If she does in fact  know that I could see that somewhat factoring into her grudgingly supporting Bran as King- her brother died protecting him.

Hell, there should have also been a scene with Yara kicking Euron's corpse. 

[RealityCreator]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

I think the writers did try very half-assedly to give Jon's heritage a role in the story. It seems like that was the point of Jon encountering Drogon outside the throne room -- Dany felt safe hanging out there unguarded because her dragon was at the door to keep any intruders from entering, but Jon's Valyrian heritage meant that Drogon would let him pass.

Of course, the better way to handle the situation would've been for Jon to have to leverage his identity in some meaningful way to get it Dany, but as usual the writers insisted on keeping everything as simple as possible, even when the situation demanded something more complex.

Which goes back to one of the main reasons why the show got worse in its later seasons, I think. When the series started, its main hook with the meaty political intrigue, but as the show became more popular and viewers began to fall in love with the characters, the writers narrowed their focus to their intimate personal stories, and the the big-picture stuff became extremely perfunctory. It's a very common occurrence when a nerdy genre show gets crazy popular -- see also Lost or Battlestar Galactica.

I understand what you're saying here, but Dany wasn't trying to protect herself from Jon before he entered the throne room.  She was ready to marry him at that point *despite* the fact that he was a Targaryen with a better claim to the throne than she.  There should have been some kind of consideration or at the very least some kind of acknowledgement from the council who ultimately chose Bran as King that Jon's true identity is Aegon Targaryen and he has a legitimate claim to the throne.  The fact that it was not mentioned *at all* was strange and poorly conceived.

Apparently I erased your excellent ideas about how Arya's storyline wrt her Faceless training could have been handled better, and I agree that would have been a much much better way to handle her mysteriously forgotten abilities.  

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, Heckler52317 said:

Right? Unsullied, Dothraki and Iron Born against the Northerners who were part of sacking the city? Sansa better get smarter quick- she's going to have her hands full with the fickle north and the Iron Born

As much as I would like to see the Unsullied take out some Northerners, you have to remember the Notherners have plot protection.  Same with Sansa.

6 hours ago, stagmania said:

Apparently D&D said in their loathsome little Inside the Episode series that he’s now the Lord Commander again (of what, you might ask). I choose to believe he’s leaving the wall behind and going to live with the freefolk. 

Abandoning his duty wouldn't be the Stark way though.  Ned beheaded deserters.  He's probably just escorting them home.  I know how you feel though, I actually choose to ignore the entire last three episodes.

[Callista]

5 hours ago, Minneapple said:

In the words of the great Charles Barkley, "if I didn't eat so much I wouldn't be so fat."

Sansa had some help and some luck, but in the end she survived.

Sansa survived mostly because she had plot armor galore, period. Just like the three remaining Starks. Sansa could have died when she and Theon escaped from Winterfell; just as Arya could have died when she was stabbed several times by the Waif or when KL was crumbling; or Jon could have died if Drogon had acted in character and burned him, or Bran could have died simply because of the harsh conditions beyond the Wall. But they all survived because D&D and George always meant for them to survive.  It's not really their smartness, toughness, etc, that saves them in the end, but ultra-thick plot armor.

Margaery could have survived if D&D wanted her to, but since she would obviously outshine Sansa with her savviness and charm, and since she is not one of the holy circle of remaining Starks, she had to be killed off.  She's not yet dead in the books, though, so I hope George gives her a better fate; after all, he did say that some secondary characters would have different fates in the books.

[benteen]

9 hours ago, rmontro said:

As much as I would like to see the Unsullied take out some Northerners, you have to remember the Notherners have plot protection.  Same with Sansa.

Abandoning his duty wouldn't be the Stark way though.  Ned beheaded deserters.  He's probably just escorting them home.  I know how you feel though, I actually choose to ignore the entire last three episodes.

True about abandoning duty not being very Stark but I prefer to think that Jon decided to say F it and abandon his post.  He earned it after this mess and it would be nice to see him make his own decision for once instead of being pushed into every direction by all the idiots around him.

On the subject of Arya, Maisie Williams always did a great job but the Arya character was annoying me too as I feel like with Sam, she was another wish fulfillment character.  One who could be annoying too.

Edited May 21, 2019 by benteen

[WatchrTina]

One thing I did enjoy is that the Grrrrrl power is still going strong in this show even after Dany's death.  Sansa credibly threatens Grey Worm and tells the rambling Edmure Tully to sit down.  Arya straight-up threatens to end Yara Greyjoy after she threatens Jon.

It's not quite the level of Grrrrl power that was rampant when The Queen of Thorns was still alive, plotting with the Sand Snakes to put Dany on the Iron Throne, but it's still pretty damned significant and I love it.

[jeansheridan]

20 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Rickon doesn't die in the books perhaps he will become High Septon? 

Sansa is currently in the Vale in the books. What if she meets up with Young Griff? Another Stark/Targ combo? And Rickon gets Winterfell? That link to the Reddit about Young Griff is really good. I actually liked his potential a lot in the book. His whole group and his foster father were interesting. 

[Maximum Taco]

12 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Sansa is currently in the Vale in the books. What if she meets up with Young Griff? Another Stark/Targ combo? And Rickon gets Winterfell? That link to the Reddit about Young Griff is really good. I actually liked his potential a lot in the book. His whole group and his foster father were interesting. 

Snip. Taking it to Book vs. Show, cause that feels like where this belongs. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, RealityCreator said:

least some kind of acknowledgement from the council who ultimately chose Bran as King that Jon's true identity is Aegon Targaryen and he has a legitimate claim to the throne.  The fact that it was not mentioned *at all* was strange and poorly conceived.

But why do you think they know? Varys never got his letters out. The Starks kept their mouths shut. Grey Worm may have not known and if he did, he wasn't talking about it. 

I actually would have sacrificed Tyrion's sad walk to the crypts to see a scene of Grey Worm arresting Jon and keeping him "safe" from the Dothraki. The fact that an angry Grey Worm had the discipline not to kill Jon on the spot speaks volumes about his self control and obedience to procedure. I admire him for it even if I find it a bit scary.

Yara deserved better as did the actress who always owned her scenes. But all the quirky side characters got shafted in the rush to the finale. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by jeansheridan

[Eyes High]

19 hours ago, rmontro said:

I have to admit I'm a little confused as to what happened at the end with Jon's character.  When he first woke up at Castle Black, it looked kind of like they had made him Lord Commander again.  But then he left with the wildlings.  Most people seem to think that he went to live with the wildlings, and that the whole Night Watch thing was just a ruse to fool Grey Worm.

It wasn't just a ruse to fool Grey Worm. Tyrion would have said so otherwise.

[recursEv]

I pretty much hated everything about Season 8, from the demise of the Night King, to the destruction of character story arcs.  I would have accepted the ending, however, if they had made the very last sequence of the show something like this:

Bran sitting alone in his chambers.  His eyes go white as he wargs into Drogon.

Cut to a close shot of Drogon's eyes, who is now inhabited by Bran.  Drogon picks up Daenerys' dead body and flies east over several long takes.  He flies past Essos and south of the Dothraki Sea to the ruined island of Valyria.  At the center there is a dormant volcano which destroyed Valyria hundreds of years ago.  Drogon drops Daenerys' body into the volcano.

First a low rumbling, then a massive explosion of lava and fire as the volcano is reactivated.  The surrounding areas are incinerated.  As rock and structure burn away, a hidden cave is uncovered and is revealed to have hundreds of dragon eggs.  The lava pours over the eggs and they all start to move, as if hatching.

Cut back to Bran as he finishes his journey as Drogon.  There is an evil smile on his face.

Edited May 21, 2019 by recursEv

[CherryMalotte]

Just for us...
 

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It wasn't just a ruse to fool Grey Worm. Tyrion would have said so otherwise.

Sure, because these producers would never allow for an action that wasn't perfectly telescoped to viewers beforehand.

Truly, though, I hope you are correct. In my own, off screen world, Jon woke up and realized how badly he and Dany were both used to dispatch the NK, and then Cersei, and finally he was used to dispatch Dany (Tyrion could have done the deed himself if he hadn't chosen to so publicly quit his office) and decided to ride off with Ghost and Tormond and let 7K take care of their own messes.

We were promised a bittersweet ending, but unless you're a big Sansa, Bronn, Bran and Tyrion booster, I don't see any sweet. 

In the end, nothing got better for the "little people." If anything the small council became even less representative. Iirc, Pycelle, Varys, Baelish all came from nothing, for the most part. On the new council, only Davos and Bronn ever had to make their own way in the world.

What I see is a dystopian sci-fi scenario that's been presented into a fantasy setting. That's not subversion, that's bait and switch. Fantasy exists because it IS fantasy.

It's still great TV, but at this point I feel like the kid in The Princess Bride: Jesus, grandpa, why'd you read me this story?

[bijoux]

4 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

On the new council, only Davos and Bronn ever had to make their own way in the world.

Brienne may have come from a good house but she sure made it to the King's Guard on her own. Her father may have given her the opportunity to train early on but it's really her own determination and stamina that got her to where she was. She was no more viable to sit on the council than Davos and Bronn just because of her birth.

[FemmyV]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Brienne may have come from a good house but she sure made it to the King's Guard on her own. Her father may have given her the opportunity to train early on but it's really her own determination and stamina that got her to where she was. She was no more viable to sit on the council than Davos and Bronn just because of her birth.

Without her father's wealth and support, she never would have had the training and equipment to win in the lists. Without her family status, she never would have been allowed anywhere near the lists, or Renley..

Edited May 21, 2019 by FemmyV

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Sure, because these producers would never allow for an action that wasn't perfectly telescoped to viewers beforehand.

Truly, though, I hope you are correct. In my own, off screen world, Jon woke up and realized how badly he and Dany were both used to dispatch the NK, and then Cersei, and finally he was used to dispatch Dany (Tyrion could have done the deed himself if he hadn't chosen to so publicly quit his office) and decided to ride off with Ghost and Tormond and let 7K take care of their own messes.

We were promised a bittersweet ending, but unless you're a big Sansa, Bronn, Bran and Tyrion booster, I don't see any sweet. 

Brienne not only making the Kingsguard but her protege Pod proving worthy of the job as well is pretty darn sweet.

Knowing that she could have a life as a conventional lady if she wanted it (as represented by Gendry's marriage offer), Arya is free and is choosing to live a life on her terms without being bound by traditional expectations, which is all she ever wanted.

Gendry's legitimization as Lord Baratheon apparently stuck judging from his presence at the council, which is a sweet end for someone who was proud of his parentage. Hopefully, he won't pine forever for Arya the way his dad did for Lyanna, and Davos can help him with the lord stuff.

Sam is free from his NW vows and his horrible father, he has a sweet gig as Grandmaester, and he ended up with a lovely girlfriend and a family of his own.

Davos ends up serving a king worth serving and helping make Westeros a better place, even if it's not the king he started out serving. In a nice little nod to GRRM's theme of the destructiveness of vengeance, Davos' ability to make peace with Tyrion, the man who killed his son through the use of wildfire, is what makes that possible.

And while I admit Jon's fate looks pretty grim on the surface, he belongs in the real North with people who won't try to use him or his claim, as even his friends and family like Sam and Sansa tried to do. He can find some measure of peace after everything.

[bijoux]

12 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Without her father's wealth and support, she never would have had the training and equipment to win in the lists. Without her family status, she never would have been allowed anywhere near the lists, or Renley..

One could argue that Davos and Bronn wouldn't have been raised up if it hadn't been for Stannis and the Lannisters. Nobody can make it completely independently of others. Of course Selwyn's funds helped, but they were hardly enough. Brienne was ridiculed for years (frankly, just because she's the Lord Commander, I don't think it will stop) but she forged on through adversity, on her own and facing danger. No, she didn't come from a humble background. I'm not arguing that. But her own background wasn't something that predetermined the path she took. Just the opposite.

I mean, I've been completely whelmed with Tyrion for the last few seasons, but not even he was supposed to be there. He's the embarrasment to the House of Lannister who both his father and sister wished dead more than a few times. Basically, if I look at it logically, I can see it being a meeting of cripples, bastards and broken things. Sadly, it feels hollow because of the lackluster lead up.

[GraceK]

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/3gD9va4

best recap ever.

[RealityCreator]

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

But why do you think they know? Varys never got his letters out. The Starks kept their mouths shut. Grey Worm may have not known and if he did, he wasn't talking about it. 

Tyrion knew, Sansa knew, Arya knew, Bran knew, and Sam knew - and had proof - so quite a few people sitting in that council deciding who would become king knew...and none of them said a word about it.

ETA:  Sam in the list of people who knew Jon's true identity/heritage.

Edited May 22, 2019 by RealityCreator