S08.E05: The Bells

[Katsullivan]

7 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

23 minutes ago, SNeaker said:

What I got from that was that Sansa now knows that when people hear the truth about Jon, they abandon Dany to support him, whether he wants the throne or not. Just like she told him they would.

I saw it as a veiled threat.

Rorschach test.

It makes sense that if you're already predisposed to hate Dany, you'll believe she's wrong to execute Varys for repeatedly trying to kill her. 

[ulkis]

15 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I saw it as a veiled threat.

I don't think it was a veiled threat, I think it was a bit of "I told you so!"

But as to the original statement, what Dany meant was that Sansa would see that when people found out about Jon they would rally to him and it would give Sansa more reason to tell others.

[proserpina65]

7 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Rorschach test.

It makes sense that if you're already predisposed to hate Dany, you'll believe she's wrong to execute Varys for repeatedly trying to kill her. 

I'm not predisposed to hate Dany; I was actually inclined to think favorably about her until she went full Targaryen on King's Landing.  And I don't necessarily think that she was wrong to execute Varys, not in a world like the one the show has created.  But saying what she did to Jon was a threat - that people who betray her could end up being executed.

[Drogo]

[proserpina65]

13 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

And the problem is that the audience always wants the story to be black and white. They need Mirri to be good and Dany bad. The idea that this was a complex situation, and was supposed to be a lesson about how good intentions can never be enough... just loses people. Is anyone really surprised that D & D just made the show dumber and dumber over the seasons?

Or they need Dany to be all good and someone like Sansa to be all bad.  It is complex, just as both characters are complex and a mixture of good and bad.

(Ftr, just because I haven't agreed with some of their choices, I don't think D&D made the show dumber.)

[Affogato]

So Varys’s rings. Identify his birds to each other? Redeemable at the iron bank for money? Contain last instructions?

[ulkis]

There's another thing - is there any Howland Reed in the show? Would anyone be able to prove anything about Jon? Why wouldn't Dany just say "no proof who will believe you"?

[UNOSEZ]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

As is Jon

• Season 1: Jon tried to abandon the Night's Watch to join Robb
• Season 6: Jon tells Edd he's quitting the Night's Watch because his "brothers" killed him even though the threat from the Night King was still present
• Season 6: Jon only decides to go after Ramsay after he finds out Rickon is Ramsay's prisoner
• Season 6: After Rickon is killed, Jon throws away his army's battle plan and charges the Bolton Army

Jon's grandfather

Jon's father

And Sansa knew none of that when she met Dany... Which is why she may have been apprehensive when they met... Which is what the question was that I responded to... 

[DarkRaichu]

10 minutes ago, Affogato said:

So Varys’s rings. Identify his birds to each other? Redeemable at the iron bank for money? Contain last instructions?

One ring to rule them all??

😄

[enoughcats]

7 hours ago, Macbeth said:

It was nice she cried over Jorah's dead body. Of course she would have killed him in S5 - but luckily for Jorah - Tyrion talked her out of it. 

So, burn me, I thought the mourning over Jorah didn't work.  Jorah hadn't been back with her for anywhere near as along a time as he had been banished.  Jorah was besodden when he saw her emerge from the funeral pyre. 

When she sent him away, she expected his death.  When he came back with grayscale, she was sweet to him and sent him away again.  But for Samwell, that would have been the end of Ser Jorah.  

Ser Jorah never waivered.  She was the flip of a coin.

The the showrunners had the dragon land and protect both of them.  Some viewers saw the dragon as adding more pathos to Jorah's death. Cynic that I am, I saw the dragon adding emotion because it was needed to enhance Dany's befuddlement towards the compassion side of personality.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

And that Noble in Mereen didn't want to marry her as I recall.  She insisted, through command, that they be betrothed.   The worst thing that ever happened to him. 

She constantly belittled him.. Didn't take his advice.. Killed his father.. Threatened him over and over... And still forced him to marry her.. And he still tried to help her escape and got killed for it... Another black body sacrificed for the Dragon Queen 

[Nanrad]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Or they need Dany to be all good and someone like Sansa to be all bad.  It is complex, just as both characters are complex and a mixture of good and bad.

(Ftr, just because I haven't agreed with some of their choices, I don't think D&D made the show dumber.)

I don’t need Dany to be good, I need Sansa to be held to the same impossible standards that Dany is.

Everything Dany says is construed as a threat, despite her not harming anyone she works with  on a whim and repeatedly giving people chances. Sansa deliberately sows seeds of chaos and a thousand excuses are made for her. She knows EXACTLY what happens when information travels and does it anyway for her own benefit.

We May say it’s to protect the north, but why is the north more important than any other kingdom? Sansa’s laser focus on just one kingdom to the detriment of others makes her selfish and morally grey at best.

There is no way to argue that she didn’t know this wouldn’t to resort to violence because it always does. She’s sewn that first hand.

24 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

She constantly belittled him.. Didn't take his advice.. Killed his father.. Threatened him over and over... And still forced him to marry her.. And he still tried to help her escape and got killed for it... Another black body sacrificed for the Dragon Queen 

What are you arguing by bringing up race?

The racism of the writer’s???

[UNOSEZ]

18 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

I don’t need Dany to be good, I need Sansa to be held to the same impossible standards that Dany is.

Everything Dany says is construed as a threat, despite her not harming anyone she works with  on a whim and repeatedly giving people chances. Sansa deliberately sows seeds of chaos and a thousand excuses are made for her. She knows EXACTLY what happens when information travels and does it anyway for her own benefit.

We May say it’s to protect the north, but why is the north more important than any other kingdom? Sansa’s laser focus on just one kingdom to the detriment of others makes her selfish and morally grey at best.

There is no way to argue that she didn’t know this wouldn’t to resort to violence because it always does. She’s sewn that first hand.

What are you arguing by bringing up race?

The racism of the writer’s???

I argued about things other than race as well.. But I get that for the purposes of that particular argument hizdar's race really played no part In-universe... Still that doesn't change her treatment of the man

[queenanne]

On 5/15/2019 at 4:18 PM, TigerLynx said:

If Jon takes action, and it goes anything like Ned, Rob, the rest of the Stark guys taking action, prepare to burn or lose your head.  Also, I'm not sure what the big deal is about the made Targ genes Dany has since Jon's apparent claim to the throne is that he also has Targ genes.  {face palm}

I think it's supposed to be a nurture-not-nature argument.  Jon could have been a Viserys, except he was raised humbly amongst the Starks.

[Advance35]

Quote

I argued about things other than race as well.. But I get that for the purposes of that particular argument hizdar's race really played no part In-universe... Still that doesn't change her treatment of the man

Though with all the talk about optics, that's a whole other discussion. 

The Mysha crowd surfing made me roll my eyes so hard I got a headache.

Quote

Also re: Sansa not trusting Dany I don't think that has much of anything to do with her being a Targ. She's mistrustful because she wants to rule the place and her being polite and friendly doesn't change that. It's the authority that's the problem. 

And lets be honest.  Sansa doesn't trust anyone anymore.

That the character didn't passively accept a situation she was unhappy with, speaks to how much evolution the character has had.  Just because Dany is "Queen" doesn't mean she's immune to plots.  The Tyrells were scheming against Cersei when she was Queen.  Cersei schemed against Margaery when she was Queen.  The Lannisters were plotting against a Baratheon King.  The Tyrells plotted against a Lannister King.

Who in this story just accepted a situation they hated?  Sansa can try to spin a web but it's up to Dany how she reacts.  Not listening to sound advice even if it comes from a source you hate or a series of events not going your way, so you decide to incinerate enemy soldiers and innocent civilians alike.  Unfortunately, the latter is very much in character for Dany.

[UNOSEZ]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Though with all the talk about optics, that's a whole other discussion. 

The Mysha crowd surfing made me roll my eyes so hard I got a headache.

And lets be honest.  Sansa doesn't trust anyone anymore.

That the character didn't passively accept a situation she was unhappy with, speaks to how much evolution the character has had.  Just because Dany is "Queen" doesn't mean she's immune to plots.  The Tyrells were scheming against Cersei when she was Queen.  Cersei schemed against Margaery when she was Queen.  The Lannisters were plotting against a Baratheon King.  The Tyrells plotted against a Lannister King.

Who in this story just accepted a situation they hated?  Sansa can try to spin a web but it's up to Dany how she reacts.  Not listening to sound advice even if it comes from a source you hate or a series of events not going your way, so you decide to incinerate enemy soldiers and innocent civilians alike.  Unfortunately, the latter is very much in character for Dany.

Agreed.. But to the posters point race didn't have anything to do with hizdar In-universe.. That's why I wrote a second post... But yeah all of her travels to get her army were upsetting to me.. Probably why I'm. Other as invested in her as a character... 

I also agree about Sansa.. Dunno why so many were so upset about her not immediately kissing up to Dany the way everyone else had.. 

And being in power almost certainly means ppl will conspire... Especially if they don't think your all that great 

[paigow]

King Hot Pie: Breaker of Eggs, Ovenborn, The Unburnt Golden Brown Crust.....

[GiuliettaMasina]

I heard a phrase today that sums up a good deal of my dissatisfaction: "Foreshadowing is not the same thing as character development." 

It's been pretty clear that Dany's character arc has centered around the question of "will she do what is easy or will she do what is right?" The problem is the show spent 7 seasons showing her chose what is right again and again, often at the expense of her quest for power. If they wanted us to be suspicious of her, they could have simply had her chose easy more often. No, I'm not going to condemn her for acting ruthlessly against her enemies or pursuing loveless marriage pacts for power. Not in this show, I'm not.

The closest she came to killing an "innocent" was burning Kraznys. The writers that want me to view this act as "bad" are the same writers that used Arya killing Meryn Trant as a stepping stone in her journey back to Westeros. If we're using the reasoning given for why Dany killing Kraznys was actually "bad," we should view these kills as the same. Trant never did anything to Arya personally. Following sovereign orders, beating women, and raping underage girls are all accepted practices in Westeros (though if you're a rich woman they'll have to marry you to get the right to do the latter two). Will we see the newly "human" Arya dealing with the moral implications of this murder in the finale?

More importantly and more indicative of the shoddy plotting that led us here, though, is why D&D thought they needed to come up with a conceit to get us to view Dany as the hero in the first place and why they don't understand surprising your audience and selling them a bill of goods are different things.

If their goal was to write a story about someone allowing their worst instincts to take over, why didn't they just write that? Were they afraid viewers wouldn't go for it? The television landscape of the past two decades is littered with tales of anti-heroes and morally gray protagonists--I think the audience has more than proved it's more than capable of enjoying and obsessing over tales that are about terrible people from start to finish. Did they think having the hero become the villain was unique, novel, or clever? If so, they might want to watch Star Wars before they write the next chapters of it. 

If their goal was to write a realistic rumination on the corrupting evil of power or an exploration of the darker nature of the tropes we enjoy, they should have written the last few seasons a lot more like Breaking Bad/Mad Men in the Middle Ages and a lot less like an action/adventure movie. Even we consider the first four seasons as distinct in terms of tone, everyone's still too pretty, too clean, and too charming by far; some are too old and some are too young depending on what's more appealing tv. And considering not one of the main characters playing the game is advocating for anything other than rule by aristocracy, it seems they should be set for bitter endings as well. Absolute power and all. 

If the show ends with Dany securing the throne because in this universe, no matter how much we don't want it to be true, might really does make right; if the other mains have to leave Westeros or live under reign of the mad queen due to choices they made along the way? Now that'll actually make me hate this twist a lot less. That would be an actual gritty, realistic ending. I suspect, however, that we'll be seeing heroic Jon, clever Sansa/Tyrion being "good" autocrats, and noble Arya using her powers for good, because "realistic" is not the story GOT has been telling for a while now.

Edited to add: I love Jon and Sansa, like Tyrion, and care for Arya, so this is not whinging that their characters are getting better treatment. The only one whose happy ending I wouldn't be able to enjoy at this point is Jon's which is another reason I hate this so much.

Edited May 17, 2019 by GiuliettaMasina

[lucindabelle]

24 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

I heard a phrase today that sums up a good deal of my dissatisfaction: "Foreshadowing is not the same thing as character development." 

It's been pretty clear that Dany's character arc has centered around the question of "will she do what is easy or will she do what is right?" The problem is the show spent 7 seasons showing her chose what is right again and again, often at the expense of her quest for power. If they wanted us to be suspicious of her, they could have simply had her chose easy more often. No, I'm not going to condemn her for acting ruthlessly against her enemies or pursing loveless marriage pacts for power. Not in this show, I'm not.

The closest she came to killing an "innocent" was burning Kraznys. The writers that want me to view this act as "bad" are the same writers that used Arya killing Meryn Trant as a stepping stone in her journey back to Westeros.  

I watch the clip of that today on YouTube. And there is absolutely no way we were meant to see that as bad. No way. Anybody who says that is not paying attention to the way that that  show was cut, scored, edited. In that episode, we see her give water to a dying man on a crucifix. In that episode, will you see her talking to Ser Barristan, who explains that he fought for Rhaegar for Love, cautioning her that the unsullied won’t fight just because they are bought  or not fight as well.

Kraznys is shown to be misogynistic and hateful. When she speaks Valyrian we see Missandei’s face light up.

The first thing she does is tell the unsullied to kill the masters but harm no child. Only then does she say dracarys.

and afterwards she OFFERS THE UNSULLIED THEIR FREEDOM. But they CHOOSE to follow her- for love.

cut to ser Jorah and Barristan smiling at one another: approving.

music swells. Dragons fly.

IT WAS PRESENTED AS A DARING AND HEROIC THING.

, I totally reject the Ret con d&d are trying to pull with that now.

you can’t manipulate my emotions for seven years and tell me I misunderstood everything and make me swallow it. It’s like giving Cersei a heroic ending of I did it all for love.

oh wait.

anyway my point is in film or theatre we get information through an entire mise-en-scene. Not just dialogue. We get information from music, lighting, camera angles (if film), cuts. She was edited in every single one of those “seeds” to be a hero. Full stop. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by lucindabelle

[GraceK]

20 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

I heard a phrase today that sums up a good deal of my dissatisfaction: "Foreshadowing is not the same thing as character development." 

It's been pretty clear that Dany's character arc has centered around the question of "will she do what is easy or will she do what is right?" The problem is the show spent 7 seasons showing her chose what is right again and again, often at the expense of her quest for power. If they wanted us to be suspicious of her, they could have simply had her chose easy more often. No, I'm not going to condemn her for acting ruthlessly against her enemies or pursuing loveless marriage pacts for power. Not in this show, I'm not.

The closest she came to killing an "innocent" was burning Kraznys. The writers that want me to view this act as "bad" are the same writers that used Arya killing Meryn Trant as a stepping stone in her journey back to Westeros. If we're using the reasoning given for why Dany killing Kraznys was actually "bad," we should view these kills as the same. Trant never did anything to Arya personally. Following sovereign orders, beating women, and raping underage girls are all accepted practices in Westeros (though if you're a rich woman they'll have to marry you to get the right to do the latter two). Will we see the newly "human" Arya dealing with the moral implications of this murder in the finale?

More importantly and more indicative of the shoddy plotting that led us here, though, is why D&D thought they needed to come up with a conceit to get us to view Dany as the hero in the first place and why they don't understand surprising your audience and selling them a bill of goods are different things.

If their goal was to write a story about someone allowing their worst instincts to take over, why didn't they just write that? Were they afraid viewers wouldn't go for it? The television landscape of the past two decades is littered with tales of anti-heroes and morally gray protagonists--I think the audience has more than proved it's more than capable of enjoying and obsessing over tales that are about terrible people from start to finish. Did they think having the hero become the villain was unique, novel, or clever? If so, they might want to watch Star Wars before they write the next chapters of it. 

If their goal was to write a realistic rumination on the corrupting evil of power or an exploration of the darker nature of the tropes we enjoy, they should have written the last few seasons a lot more like Breaking Bad/Mad Men in the Middle Ages and a lot less like an action/adventure movie. Even we consider the first four seasons as distinct in terms of tone, everyone's still too pretty, too clean, and too charming by far; some are too old and some are too young depending on what's more appealing tv. And considering not one of the main characters playing the game is advocating for anything other than rule by aristocracy, it seems they should be set for bitter endings as well. Absolute power and all. 

If the show ends with Dany securing the throne because in this universe, no matter how much we don't want it to be true, might really does make right; if the other mains have to leave Westeros or live under reign of the mad queen due to choices they made along the way? Now that'll actually make me hate this twist a lot less. That would be an actual gritty, realistic ending. I suspect, however, that we'll be seeing heroic Jon, clever Sansa/Tyrion being "good" autocrats, and noble Arya using her powers for good, because "realistic" is not the story GOT has been telling for a while now.

Edited to add: I love Jon and Sansa, like Tyrion, and care for Arya, so this is not whinging that their characters are getting better treatment. The only one whose happy ending I wouldn't be able to enjoy at this point is Jon's which is another reason I hate this so much.

I really loved this whole post. 

[GiuliettaMasina]

 

 

1

3 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

anyway my point is in film or theatre we get information through an entire mise-en-scene. She was edited in every single one of those “seeds” to be a hero. Full stop. 

This. I don't even mind that some people see Dany's acts as justified by the writing; plenty of people have disliked her quest for power all along. If they read the clues differently than I, hey, that's "all in the game" of interpreting fiction. But if an equally large part of the audience feels the dots weren't connected adequately, I take umbrage at the idea that somehow we're all just naive dolts who fell for the clever ruses of the same brilliant minds that us "bad pussy." That's a failure of writing.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 5/12/2019 at 10:57 PM, MissLucas said:

I've lived through the 80s and I'm still complaining. Fantastic cinematography can't replace good writing.

Yep. I'm thrilled we're living in the Golden Age of television right now and I hate the culture of entitlement to which some fans subscribe. I am hugely grateful for the first 7.5 seasons of this show,a and still love it. But the second half of the last episode and the unsupported Dany twist in this one are deeply, deeply disappointing.

On 5/12/2019 at 11:07 PM, Jewlmc said:

I think the "barely flinching"  had to do with her brother being an abusive sack of shit. But, whatever.

Seriously? People criticizing her reaction to Viserys's death? Utterly ridiculous. He'd just waved a sword at her pregnant belly, for God's sake. That's right up there with criticizing her for turning the tables on the khals or criticizing her for frying Kraznys and sacking Astapor. That says to me you are bound to die on the hill of Dany Is Evil, and then I stop reading your posts. (Not you, Jewlmc 🙂 I mean posters who post over and over and over and over and over again their one Manichaean opinion. Thank God for the block function.)

On 5/12/2019 at 11:17 PM, RedHawk said:

I also hoped for them to die in each other’s arms. What I wanted to see was Jaime holding on as he pushed her/them out of the tower. A fitting echo of pushing Bran out of the window as well as Tommen’s suicide. 

That would've been poetically great. I did like their ending although I get why some fans hated it. In the end he was unable to quit his addiction--Cersei. It's quite tragic. I do wish he and Brienne hadn't sealed the deal. Someone in this forum said that his knighting her was the best sex they'll ever have--D/D should've left it at that.

On 5/13/2019 at 10:04 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

Just more horrible writing.  They show Varys as having an irrational hatred of Dany, once he found out that Jon had a better claim.  Dany hadn't done anything to make him turn against her, he just thought that he, the all wise Eunuch, who should get to decide on his own, who gets to rule the Realm, had found a better King.  

So, instead of trying to convince her to step aside or leaving her camp and working against her, he writes raven scrolls against her, inside her own castle, and tries to have her poisoned, which if successful might have left Cersei in charge, as Drogon might not have fought for anyone else.

But, they make him "right".  

It is along the same lines of Jaime being "right" for going back to his treacherous, murderous, incestuous sister (who sent Bronn to murder him) and giving them a romantic ending.  

Just horrible, horrible storytelling.

If Varys had more tangible cause for turning on her, or she had burned him for speaking his mind to her to her face, as she had commanded him to, then they reasonably could have made Varys a good guy.  

FUCK Varys. I'm so disgusted with his blatant sexism last episode, and here he's trying to MURDER her? When she hasn't even done anything yet? (And involving a child? Having a child spy and tell secrets is one thing but involving her in conspiracy to murder is quite another.) As you say, terrible storytelling. He's been such a good and interesting character until the past couple of seasons but D/D had to write him This Way to get to That Plot Point.

On 5/13/2019 at 5:42 PM, tennisgurl said:

But for real, I do think that the story of Dany going dark could have worked given the right amount of time and build up. Dany, while basically a well meaning and decent person who wanted to use her power to save innocents and liberate enslaved and abused people, did have tendency towards violent vengeance, like when she burned that witch woman in season 1, her dealings with the slave owners in the past, burning them alive and crucifying the people who crucified those slave children, and certainly always had a "I am Daenerys Stormborn and I will have my throne through fire and blood" vibes, and has threatened to burn down cities and such, so its not 100% out of nowhere...but it all happened so fast, that it feels hilariously out of character and rushed, like they had an idea and wanted to get to Mad Queen Dany, but had no time to actually get there. They should have spread this out and had more episodes this season, have it really sink in that her friends who tempered her darker impulses were gone, that two of her children were dead, her continued frustrations that people are not instantly worshipping her as the rightful queen returned in Westeros the way I think she expected, have people betray and plot against her, have her romance with Jon slowly implode, it could have worked. I might not have liked it, and it still might have been rather problematic, but it could have still worked from a story perspective, and could have even been interesting. Take this character who has clearly done many violent and scary things, but to bad people we hate, so it was alright, and have her become slowly corrupted by these choices, and by the dark world where she lives, and make her tragically become the very oppressor that she hated the most, and also do the classic GoT deconstruction of tropes, in this case, the One True Ruler comes home from exile to rule with justice and fairness. Its such a trope, with Dany being the pretty princess with the cool pets and the silver hair, her becoming the most perfect queen ever, and her and Jon creating the perfect ice and fire dynasty, is almost too perfect. So of course that wouldn't work out. The problem is that its happened so fast, it all seems so random. Like "Uggg I hate those bells I have a headache I WILL KILL EVERYONE!!!"

And now she is apparently "mad" instead of just really ruthless like Tywin or past Targ kings and queens, who were seen as evil but not often as incompetent or mad, so...what is going on? Honestly, its so bizarre to me, because D and D could have basically had anything they wanted for this show. They could have had more season, they could have had a full ten episodes this season, its one of the most popular shows on television, they could have had times to do this better. Instead, they decided to do this short season to wrap up a billion stories and characters, so everything just seems rushed and half assed, even its main characters and how their journeys end. It honestly feels like a show that got unexpectedly cancelled or had a main cast member leave or die or be involved in a scandal and written out, and they had to wrap everything up super quickly, even if it didnt totally make sense, just to have it done by the time the show ends. When that happens, I can cut shows some slack. But with this, this was their CHOICE. They choose to rush everything, and its now coming off as super rushed, all because they took a story that should have had tons of time to develop, if this is really what was supposed to happen, and gave us the cliffnotes. I feel like we are missing several chapters of a book, or a whole season of TV. The way its been shown, this just makes no sense to have gone from the women who cried over the dragons killing one child and locked them up for it, to her happily slaughtering thousands of children and innocents. 

It's intolerably bad storytelling. If they didn't want to finish the series properly, they should've handed over the showrunning responsibilities to someone else. I am somewhat mollified by reading the critics' response--D/D are getting roasted. 

On 5/13/2019 at 6:46 PM, Chris24601 said:

So, how about Mirri Maz Dur, a slave that Dany burned alive because the slave had killed the leader of the band of murderers and rapists who burned her village, killed her family and friends and gang raped her?

You mean the woman who murdered her unborn child? I actually think the Mirri/Dany conflict was quite interesting in that both of them had a point. But Mirri killed her baby. I completely understand Dany's response. I don't think that, or the other examples in that tweet that listed all of Dany's prior acts of violence, proves anything at all except that in a violent world, Dany has used violence against her enemies.

On 5/13/2019 at 8:27 PM, whoknowswho said:

I thought of all those kids called Khaleesi, sometime last night while my jaw was on the floor. 

I'm not just mad at D and D. I'm mad at George RR Martin, too. I've spent so much money, time and braincells on both this show and more importantly the books. Did Daeny going nuclear surprise me? Nope, because I have read the books and watched the series over and over. She did kind of what I expected, she was a dragon.  But the franchise gets no more money from me, I will not buy TWOW or A Dream of Spring if and when they ever come out. I will watch the end next week, wipe my hands and get on with life.

The rest of the series is still quite good. My personal choice is to watch to the end, and then just delete Ep. 5 (and 6 if it too sucks) and the second half of Ep. 4 from my brain's hard drive. Just bask in blissful forgetfulness that D/D fucked it up so badly, all because they wanted to play with their Star Wars toys.

On 5/13/2019 at 10:02 PM, Cheezwiz said:

A thousand times THIS! I keep saying that it feels like they are trying to cram 30 pounds of plot into a 10 pound bag. Everything feels like cheap corner-cutting. They are also denying the audience moments of much needed catharsis. I'm not saying those moments have to follow the expected cliche path, but they need to be there and they're not, so it's frustrating. There's a big difference between  surprise plot twists, and sudden  illogical behavior. I'm so glad I binged the entire series last month, and didn't devote 8 years of my life to watching it. I'd be very disappointed if I had.

Does anyone know why this season was limited to only six episodes? Was it financial constraints from HBO, or are the showrunners just sick of it? Are they chronically drunk? I don't understand.

HBO wanted ten full seasons. D/D made the decision to cut it short. 

On 5/14/2019 at 12:55 PM, JennyMominFL said:

Google Margaret Pole’s  execution. She was  and old woman , the last Plantagenet. She fought the execution and had her head and shoulders hacked up. There is something to be said for the guillotine. Id rather die that way than crucifixion

GOD, yes. Jesus, that fucking story. Horrible. That poor old lady, a second mother to Mary Tudor, literally hacked to death.

On 5/14/2019 at 1:36 PM, Law Mom said:

I was just rewatching the scene where Dany obtained the Unsullied, back in Season 3. At the time it all seemed very heroic, but really she lied and cheated her way through that whole transaction. She traded Drogon for the army, and then even though she did not own Drogon anymore she ordered him to Dracarys Kras. That's like paying with a bad check. Then she took Drogon back, when he should have gone to Kras's heirs. Even pretending to not speak Valyrian was a deception, although a smart one. We cheered because the person Dany murdered was a bad guy, like the absolute worst. We were distracted from seeing this as a moral conundrum, as we should have at the time. 

...Seriously? You're criticizing Dany for turning the tables on a slaver? We had just seen the man cut off the nipple of one of the Unsullied, just to show off for Dany. He tells her that part of the process of creating the Unsullied is for them to murder a baby in front of its mother. And you have a problem with Dany ending that system by roasting him and every other active participant in the system?

Wow.

On 5/14/2019 at 4:24 PM, paigow said:

Why Cersei did not have Plan B:  "She is not half as smart as she thinks she is"

*********************

[Interior: Iron Bank Conference Room - Emergency Staff Meeting]

CEO: [Angry Bellowing] Which of you fucking idiots bet against Team Dragon????? Who is not getting his annual bonus????

❤️ :D

On 5/15/2019 at 4:50 PM, TVbitch said:

Is it too late to have all that torching business be just a moment's thought that goes through Dany's head, and next week she is still behind the men on her dragon as the bells toll? 

AKA the Twilight: Breaking Dawn Part II treatment? I like it!

10 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I'm disappointed Sansa and Dany didn't get along.  I wouldn't blame either of them if they decided to burn every man in Westeros to the ground.  If Princess Shireen's ghost showed up to help them out, all the better.

ME TOO. I hate that two strong women are reduced to jealous sniping harpies.

[leopardprint]

On 5/14/2019 at 1:24 PM, paigow said:

Why Cersei did not have Plan B:  "She is not half as smart as she thinks she is"

*********************

[Interior: Iron Bank Conference Room - Emergency Staff Meeting]

CEO: [Angry Bellowing] Which of you fucking idiots bet against Team Dragon????? Who is not getting his annual bonus????

On 5/14/2019 at 1:38 PM, CletusMusashi said:

I expected Cersei to have the location of her final stand rigged up with wildfire, not only to keep anyone but her from taking the throne, but also because she'd rather kill herself than give anyone else the satisfaction. And of course with Danaerys blasting through the gates with fire, it could be hard to figure out which aspects of King's Landing burning down were whose fault, so it would serve well to feed the upcoming conflicts.

The pregnancy brain on a 28 month gestation must be bananas. 

[terrymct]

I was listening to the History of Westeros podcast and they brought up something I don’t think was discussed here. 

This episode had three revenge arcs each come to a head.  

Sandor wanted revenge against his brother since his earliest days.  He got it but it cost him everything.  

Arya wanted revenge on Cersei but with the help of Sandor she saw the futility of it and now has a chance at a life.  

Dany was raised by her brother to want revenge for the killing of her father and the loss of the Iron Throne.  That revenge with its ultimate goal of taking back the throne has been her driving force since her brother died.  She won this week but it wasn’t sweet at all.  She has the throne now but nothing else.  She also never really gave a thought to what comes next after she gets her revenge and claims the throne. 

[TigerLynx]

4 hours ago, queenanne said:

I think it's supposed to be a nurture-not-nature argument.  Jon could have been a Viserys, except he was raised humbly amongst the Starks.

But the argument against Dany being on the Iron Throne is not how she was raised, but that her mad Targ genes may take over.  If her detractors on the show had listed things Dany had done, as a reason to not follow her as opposed to the - "You never know when she might go crazy, she's a Targ stuff" - then it might make sense for them to back Jon.  Also, the Targs aren't the only characters who like to burn people to death.

[Zuleikha]

when she returns to find Meereen under siege by forces from Astapor & Yunkai.  She threatens to burn both cities to the ground, never mind that most of their population is comprised of people who've been re-enslaved by the Masters.  Tyrion has to talk her out of it.

But that's a very different harm-the-innocents than the burning of King's Landing. Astapor and Yunkai were actively threatening Dany's territory. We've seen Dany consistently not care about innocents getting caught in the crossfire of the violence that she takes to defend herself or her rule. What we haven't seen is her attack innocents just for the sake of it like she did in King's Landing.

I expected Cersei to have the location of her final stand rigged up with wildfire, not only to keep anyone but her from taking the throne, but also because she'd rather kill herself than give anyone else the satisfaction. And of course with Danaerys blasting through the gates with fire, it could be hard to figure out which aspects of King's Landing burning down were whose fault, so it would serve well to feed the upcoming conflicts.

Now THAT would have been a satisfying twist that would have felt in keeping with character and story development.

[Law Mom]

35 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

...Seriously? You're criticizing Dany for turning the tables on a slaver? We had just seen the man cut off the nipple of one of the Unsullied, just to show off for Dany. He tells her that part of the process of creating the Unsullied is for them to murder a baby in front of its mother. And you have a problem with Dany ending that system by roasting him and every other active participant in the system?

Wow.

Like I said, I cheered at the time. I am just acknowledging that Dany was very comfortable lying and cheating. She is a good example of someone who believes the end justifies the means. But her motivation was not to help them. If she really cared about them she would have freed them and helped them start a new, peaceful life, not subjected these poor broken men to more war. Shades of gray.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Law Mom said:

 If she really cared about them she would have freed them and helped them start a new, peaceful life, not subjected these poor broken men to more war. Shades of gray.

That's the thing about it for me. It's not that she wasn't given a hero edit or that there weren't things she did that were obviously heroic, like freeing slaves. Of course we can cheer at slaves rising up and killing their own masters and see it as fitting for a true queen that Dany did not force them to follow her but invited them and they happily said yes because they were free now thanks to her.

She wasn't really evil the whole time or really crazy the whole time. But it seems like sometimes the fact that all of this was in context of her seeking the greatest seat of power in her world and wanting her stallion Dothraki conquerer kid to mount the world and conquering kingdoms along the way and collecting titles and being bowed to and demanding to be bowed to gets sort of ignored like it's window dressing or something that's out of Dany's hands. It's like her having blond hair, just something she was born into while her actual personality is shown in the times she chooses to do something that goes against that goal. As the goal itself isn't completely self-directed and the thing that's pushing her forward and defining all her relationships.

I don't know how many examples there are of characters who get hero edits that end in tyranny, but in fiction it doesn't seem unusual in real life at all in revolutions or cults etc. Of course, those stories would probably play more organically to people.

[lucindabelle]

18 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

Like I said, I cheered at the time. I am just acknowledging that Dany was very comfortable lying and cheating. She is a good example of someone who believes the end justifies the means. But her motivation was not to help them. If she really cared about them she would have freed them and helped them start a new, peaceful life, not subjected these poor broken men to more war. Shades of gray.

You cheered at the time because OF THE WAY IT WAS DONE. Heroic music. Cuts that showed she was RIGHT. Her giving water to a dying slave.

 No there are not shades of gray here. That’s a total Ret con and you’re falling for it.

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But it seems like sometimes the fact that all of this was in context of her seeking the greatest seat of power in her world and wanting her stallion Dothraki conquerer kid to mount the world and conquering kingdoms along the way and collecting titles and being bowed to and demanding to be bowed to gets sort of ignored like it's window dressing or something that's out of Dany's hands. It's like her having blond hair, just something she was born into while her actual personality is shown in the times she chooses to do something that goes against that goal. As the goal itself isn't completely self-directed and the thing that's pushing her forward and defining all her relationships.

Why is this a bad thing?’it’s called a Game of Thrones. So many critics of Dany seem to see her ambition and pursuit of the Iron Throne as character flaw. Why? Is it because she actually continues to conquer and gain power? And she’s a tiny blonde? She makes victories of her hardships and people are pissed about it. They are mad when she’s smarter than Krazneys and roasts him, mad when she burns down Khals who imprison and threaten to gang rape her , think she’s cold for not mourning her vicious brother who threatened  her unborn child and molested her. She actually succeeds and she’s a somehow bad for that. 🙄

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Why is this a bad thing?’it’s called a Game of Thrones. So many critics of Dany seem to see her ambition and pursuit of the Iron Throne as character flaw. Why? Is it because she actually continues to conquer and gain power? And she’s a tiny blonde? She makes victories of her hardships and people are pissed about it. They are mad when she’s smarter than Krazneys and roasts him, mad when she burns down Khals who imprison and threaten to gang rape her , think she’s cold for not mourning her vicious brother who threatened  her unborn child and molested her. She actually succeeds and she’s a somehow bad for that. 🙄

I didn't say it was a bad thing (though I personally don't think seeking to rule the world is a good thing). I'm just saying it's a thing. It's a thing that links her behavior. I'm not faulting her for any of those things mentioned above--as I said, I don't think the idea is that everyone was supposed to be seeing her as a villain in those scenes but were tricked into seeing her as a hero.

But I did see her story as somebody who started out powerless and sought power and kept seeking it (though she had other impulses and emotions too that tempered it) and really wanted it so while I didn't think they laid the groundwork for her decision here well enough I would never say it came out of nowhere or that it went against her character because we know she sees herself as the savior of the innocent. Savior complexes lead really directly to tyranny. It's like as has been explained elsewhere in the thread about the Shadow King. Especially this season a lot of her choices read to me as totally following the steps of that archetype as described here, and they were sometimes justified using the same logic. It wasn't that she struck me as evil, just very insecure about the power she needed to feel secure.

Edited May 17, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I wasn't rooting for ANYONE to get that throne, and I didn't care what color their hair was or if they had a penis or a vagina.

They all sucked in one way or another, and the people paid the price.  I saw too many similarities in Stannis and Dany too, especially those feelings of entitlement and destiny.  Those kinds of people always scare me.

I detested Cersei, but at least hers was a straight up power grab, not some savior or destiny thing.

[UNOSEZ]

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Why is this a bad thing?’it’s called a Game of Thrones. So many critics of Dany seem to see her ambition and pursuit of the Iron Throne as character flaw. Why? Is it because she actually continues to conquer and gain power? And she’s a tiny blonde? She makes victories of her hardships and people are pissed about it. They are mad when she’s smarter than Krazneys and roasts him, mad when she burns down Khals who imprison and threaten to gang rape her , think she’s cold for not mourning her vicious brother who threatened  her unborn child and molested her. She actually succeeds and she’s a somehow bad for that. 🙄

I don't want to speak for anyone else.. But all my posts on this Dany topic aren't really a judgment on her.. Its how I can grapple with her actions in toasting KL... For me some of her past actions show someone with a laser focus on getting the throne and someone with a real violent streak... She's not the only ambitious person.. She's not the only violent person.. And just because she's ambitious and violent when she thinks its necessary doesn't mean she's not also kind or brave... 

What she did to Kraznys was clever and he was a piece of shit... But it was still negotiation in bad faith... She offered a Dragon for the unsullied with no intention of honoring the deal then she burned the guy alive... Again.. He was garbage.. And it was a slick move.. But someone who can do that.. And some of the other instances that we've all gone back and forth over for days now... That someone under certain circumstances might just level a town and still think its for the greater good... At least that's how I feel on it. 

[TigerLynx]

Robert and the Mad King were horrible rulers, but people still supported them.  Ned Stark helped put Robert on the Throne.  The majority of the characters do not follow their own supposed code of honor.

I would understand opposition to Dany or anyone else trying to take the Iron Throne if the people had risen up and said, "Yeah, we are tired of you despicable, crazy, abusive jerks that have been ruling, and we've decided to go with something different."

However, the very people who have backed a number of monsters (Stannis - guy who burned his own daughter to death), are now part of the contingent going we can't have another Targ (Dany) as ruler so let's put this other Targ (Jon) on the throne.  Yeah that makes complete sense - EXCEPT NOT.

Edited May 17, 2019 by TigerLynx

[FierceCritter]

I am not so invested in the motivations of fictional characters to feel disappointed in this episode, or analyze whether or not it was the right way to go. 

That said, it did take me by surprise. But I can go with it. 

First an observation - if Dany dies, so too must Drogon. I'd probably feel more bummed about that. 

Now a great point made in this video. "Foreshadowing is Not character development." He does get into book discussion, so don't click if per the forum rules you don't want to see that. And I'm already late for bed and not feeling very eloquent, so I'm not up to a typed synopsis. But if anyone else watches it and wants to echo or illustrate points made, by all means. 

[UNOSEZ]

4 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Robert and the Mad King were horrible rulers, but people still supported them.  Ned Stark helped put Robert on the Throne.  The majority of the characters do not follow their own supposed code of honor.

I would understand opposition to Dany or anyone else trying to take the Iron Throne if the people had risen up and said, "Yeah, we are tired of you despicable, crazy, abusive jerks that have been ruling, and we've decided to go with something different."

However, the very people who have backed a number of monsters (Stannis - guy who burned his own daughter to death), are now part of the contingent going we can't have another Targ (Dany) as ruler so let's put this other Targ (Jon) on the throne.  Yeah that makes complete sense - EXCEPT NOT.

The only person around who backed Stannis is Davis.. And he wasn't even there when he burned shireen... Its only been about 20 some odd years since the Mad king.. So his horribleness is still fresh in some people's eyes.. Tho again I don't know what character is saying  replace Dany with Jon.. Varys was one and he listed a few non Targ reasons... 

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Robert and the Mad King were horrible rulers, but people still supported them.  Ned Stark helped put Robert on the Throne.  The majority of the characters do not follow their own supposed code of honor.

I would understand opposition to Dany or anyone else trying to take the Iron Throne if the people had risen up and said, "Yeah, we are tired of you despicable, crazy, abusive jerks that have been ruling, and we've decided to go with something different."

However, the very people who have backed a number of monsters (Stannis - guy who burned his own daughter to death), are now part of the contingent going we can't have another Targ (Dany) as ruler so let's put this other Targ (Jon) on the throne.  Yeah that makes complete sense - EXCEPT NOT.

The people burned to death in the Church were trying to do just that, depose Cersei.

The thing that separates Dany is simple.  DRAGONS.  People are justifiably terrified of them, they don't want them around.   They especially don't want them around because they are only controlled by a family that has a significant history of insanity.  Flip a coin is not confidence inspiring on the whole sanity thing.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Umbelina

[queenanne]

On 5/15/2019 at 11:42 AM, Drogo said:

Daenerys sees burning KL as a necessary evil, an act of self preservation. 

• Her advisor was trying to kill her, at the advice of her Hand as far as she knows.
• Her Hand has freed his traitorous brother to continue his mission of helping their sister escape (we don't know if Daenerys knows this or not.)
• Her lover's sisters are actively trying to overthrow her.
• Her lover doesn't want to kiss her anymore because he's her aunt, but it's not in her nature to understand why. 

She's just lost her oldest friend, her closest confidante, thousands of her soldiers and two of her children.  She is alone, but she is the last dragon. 

Daenerys burnt KL as a message to those who would betray her:  Let it be fear. 

She made sure the Starks will think long and hard before pursuing their anti-Daenerys agenda because if KL can go down in 20 minutes, shitty-ass Winterfell should only take 10.

Does she really not understand why Jon doesn't want to be amorous with her, though?  If I recall correctly, she was silently seething and ready to stick a dagger in Viserys' eye over the issue in S1; which is why she almost had to fall in love with a family member this time around, when one waltzed into her life all unknown like Oedipus.  

I also think it will be super interesting after the fact to go back and have a rewatch of the series, and discover how many of our reactions to Dany's actions and behaviors have changed now that we know what she's capable of.  Would she get less of the benefit of the doubt, or would actions and reactions that originally were termed "gray", now look closer to unalloyed black? 

[lucindabelle]

2 minutes ago, queenanne said:

I also think it will be super interesting after the fact to go back and have a rewatch of the series, and discover how many of our reactions to Dany's actions and behaviors have changed now that we know what she's capable of.  Would she get less of the benefit of the doubt, or would actions and reactions that originally were termed "gray", now look closer to unalloyed black? 

Nope. Watched a bunch of clips today. Not black, not even grey.

the camera angles show her as a goddess. We cut to people smiling reverently. The music swells. THE FUCKING EDITORS AND SHOWRUNNERS WANTED YOU TO ROOT FOR HWR. So we did.

this is all Ret conning. Don’t fall for it.

[Law Mom]

I did fall for it at the time. I felt terrible for this young girl who spent her whole life as a fugitive, abused by her brother and sold to a barbarian. I cheered her when she started standing up for herself. She was my favorite character for the first couple of seasons. But maybe it’s because of stuff I experienced in real life that I noticed little things that troubled me early on. When someone you care about does, say, 100 great things in a row, then says or does something odd, such as flying into a rage over something minor, then goes back to being great 100 more times, it’s easy to ignore or rationalize the one bad thing. If eventually the bad things happen more and more frequently they get harder to ignore. Some people might figure it out right away, others might take a long time to overcome the cognitive dissonance. It’s why so many women stay in verbally or emotionally abusive relationships for years, even decades. I think this is exactly what happened in Dany’s character arc, and I think it was intentional all along.  Someone mentioned a psychology experiment and actually I would find this fascinating. Some of us were suspicious early, others not until season 6 or so, and others don’t see it even now. What is different about us? Life experience? Innate cynicism? I would love to know.

[lucindabelle]

Go watch the clips. You didn’t “fall for” anything. It was made and presented that way. What you’re falling for now is an after the fact Ret con that was NOT set up by choices or actions.

[Law Mom]

8 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Go watch the clips. You didn’t “fall for” anything. It was made and presented that way. What you’re falling for now is an after the fact Ret con that was NOT set up by choices or actions.

No. It is not a retcon, I saw it years ago. You missed it because the moments were very small and overshadowed by all the hero shots. That's okay, but don't gaslight my observations.

[UNOSEZ]

Just read online that the plot for the episode leaked... I was tempted but didn't read it... Tho it did say its worse than you can imagine... So now I'm scared 

[Cheezwiz]

So after having had time to think about the previous episode, and having read endless debates about Dany's actions, I've decided I don't actually give a shit who winds up on the Iron Throne. The potential claimants pretty much all suck.

I am curious though, as to who is going to kill Dany. And also weirdly worried about what's going to happen to Drogon.

The rest, I don't really care about - especially not any of the Stark kids - even after blowing through 8 seasons, I have absolutely no emotional attachment to any of them. Instead I'm just hoping some of my surviving supporting faves make it all the way to the end. I knew Varys was going to be toast, but he had a good run. Still rooting for The Onion Knight & Brienne to be alive at the end, and dare I hope for a final glimpse of Ghost romping in the snow up North?

I'm still frustrated by Cersei's lame demise. I like the re-write idea someone posted upthread: Jaime clasping her in his arms and shoving them both out the window. The symmetry to Season 1 would have been great. 

I also kind of wish Tyrion & Jaime had cooked up an escape plot  similar to what they had planned in the show, only with a different end game: to have Cersei emerge on the beach panicky and weeping, and instead of a waiting boat, be greeted by Drogon. That spooky shot of Drogon's face emerging from the dark to roast Varys was fantastic, and I think it would have been a much more satisfying end for Cersei. Surprise, bitch! DRACARYS!

I'm just going to kick back and let the finale wash over me.

[VCRTracking]

[RealReality]

@Cheezwiz - Im surprised, but I feel the same way.  My GOT survivor wish list is pod, brienne, tormund, Davos, wolf, Sam, bronn and gendry.

I'd be somewhat sad to lose Jon, Tyrion and arya....but not as sad as if something happens to my baby cakes pod.

[Law Mom]

I suppose it's a real possibility that literally everyone dies and Dany is Queen of the Ashes. That would suck.

[CeeBeeGee]

Ser Jorah: We don't need Yunkai, Khaleesi. Taking this city will not bring you any closer to Westoros or the Iron Throne.

Dany: How many slaves are there in Yunkai?

Ser Jorah: 200,000, if not more.

Dany: Then we have 200,000 reasons to take the city.

[GraceK]

I finally figured out my issue with Danys last minute heel turn and why it bothers me. It’s the writers explanation for it. That’s what sticks, and the lack of self awareness in show of how wrong Varys is.

David and Dan basically say after the episode that she’s a “Targaryen “ and that wins out. That she “ snaps”, that you can look back and see it. That’s bullshit. These same people defended her for years . They are dumb.

Shes not crazy. She’s ANGRY. Cop to it. Admit it. I would have been okay with this episode if they admitted that Tyrion has been giving her shit advice for two years to minimize the damage inflicted on his family. That she’s mad that she’s not getting any love from the North for her sacrifices and Sansa is being hateful for no reason. That her soft serve approach to Cersei has lost her Missendei  and Rhaegal and  that was Tyrion’s advice she listened too. OWN IT. Admit that Varys is a traitor and trying to poison her and that she’s right to be paranoid And that finally, she hates these people. After all her losses, she looks at Kings Landing, at the Red Keep, at the seat of HER FAMILY, her rightful place, and all she has suffered and lost to come home, and she feels like an outsider and she’s alone and miserable and resentful and ANGRY as hell. Let her be a villain. And that’s what motivates her in that moment. Because that makes sense. Instead we get a dumb excuse about how it’s her Targaryen genes 🙄

Edited May 17, 2019 by GraceK

[MJ Frog]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That's the thing about it for me. It's not that she wasn't given a hero edit or that there weren't things she did that were obviously heroic, like freeing slaves. Of course we can cheer at slaves rising up and killing their own masters and see it as fitting for a true queen that Dany did not force them to follow her but invited them and they happily said yes because they were free now thanks to her.

She wasn't really evil the whole time or really crazy the whole time.

Exactly. This isn't an either/or situation. If she has done a good thing, that doesn't mean she isn't capable of also doing a bad thing, and vice versa. Or doing something that is a mix of good and bad at the same time. 

When she burned the Khals, for me it was 100% pure badassery. She definitely got the hero edit, and I think it's one the best moments she has on the show. But she also had her dragons eat that dude in Meereen without knowing if he had done anything at all, just to send a message to the other family heads. She can be incredibly caring and kind, especially to the powerless. But she also has that messiah complex, and is not only hungry for power, but believes she is entitled to it. That is a dangerous path to go down, especially on a show that is not kind to those who are single-minded in their pursuit of power. 

All of these things can be true simultaneously, and at its best this show throws these contradictions together and challenges us to deal with it. She is neither the messiah nor the antichrist. She is many things.

And I have to say, sitting here thinking about it, I honestly don't know what she would have done if she were put in Stannis's position, if she were told the only way she could gain the Iron Throne would be to sacrifice a child, her child. I would hope she would say fuck it, not worth it. But based on what we saw before this episode, or even this season, I don't think we could really say for sure.

Edited May 17, 2019 by MJ Frog
A word.