S08.E05: The Bells

[KLeewrite]

I liked this episode, although I admit there were problems, specifically that Daenerys’s transformation into the “mad queen” felt rushed — I get why it happened and I know that there have been references to the show going in this direction for a while, but I think there needed to be more buildup.

But I think, also, that I know what the main theme is now. It’s not so much that war is hell or power corrupts — although that’s a lot of it. It’s that vengeance corrupts. It’s self-destructive and self-defeating, something that the Hound made explicit last night. Cersei basically has run on vengeance, against Robert Baratheon for shaming and humiliating her, against Tyrion (who she thought killed Joffrey), against the Martells for killing her daughter, against the Sparrow and his followers. Daenerys’s quest also has been based in no small part upon vengeance against those who took the Iron Throne from her family — her final destruction here is also in large part about vengeance against those who killed her dragon, killed her advisor and friend, and won’t welcome her with open arms. For a few years now, I’ve seen a lot of comments about Arya turning into a soulless killing machine based on her quest for vengeance. And obviously, the Hound has turned himself inside out from vengeance.

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

I can't say I've read tons of fantasy books, but I can't remember any story of the sort.

What's hilarious about all the people trying to make the argument that this ending is a great subversion of fantasy tropes is that really it's just the opposite. All the empowered women falling to pieces and ending in emotional ruin while the Heroic Men ride in to save the day and end up in power is about as conventional as it gets.

[DarkRaichu]

I blame Jon for the burning of KL.  One does not simply leave a person with access to WMD alone and sexually frustrated at the end of the day.  

[GodsBeloved]

My coworker just walked by my office and said Dany is the evilest of evilest 🤣 

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Law Mom said:

As for the mad queen, I feel like it is a failure of our education system that people didn’t see it coming. English Lit 101! It was projected from the very first episode.

So much This!

For perspective, I do have a background in English Lit and have even studied screenwriting. For me, Dany going off the rails like this in the 11th hour was as subtle as a freight train.

That said, I can see why people would miss it in the moment. It’s why I mentioned it felt like a psychology experiment. Because Dany’s arc plays on the dark side of the power/revenge fantasy.

Who hasn’t, after hearing about the latest atrocity on the news, wished they had the power to go in there and make the perpetrators pay? To go Fire & Blood on the wicked?

That’s basically the same sorta arc that makes characters like Deadpool so popular. The asshole victims give you a reason to feel the horrible fates (in many cases vastly disproportionate to the crime... see the What Measure is a Mook trope) inflicted upon them are justified, even written for laughs (see the Golden Company Captain getting wrecked here... or Deadpool killing a guy with a Zamboni).

Getting vicarious revenge on the wicked feels good... it’s seductive. It’s Superman without the moral restraints. But look at the other key message in this very same episode; even as Dany is consumed by her need to make these people who would not love her pay... Sandor Clegane pulls Arya back from the brink... keeps her from following down the path he and Dany have lost themselves to.

Look at the disappointment that Cersei wasn’t made to suffer more. She’s not only been removed from power, but she died in horrific circumstances wishing for her baby to live. But that’s not good enough. She needed to suffer more.

And in that... you can understand WHY Dany burned them all. The city surrendering with minimal resistance wasn’t good enough. They needed to suffer more... so she made them suffer as she felt they deserved.

Dany is the dark mirror held up to everyone who just wishes “they” could be made to pay. We don’t want to think we have THAT in us... but how many cheered her on when she crucified and burned alive men without caring about actual innocence or guilt? How many would follow someone who offered you the chance to make “them” pay?

From a psychological perspective, I think the massive “I hate this!” reaction is entirely predictable and even intended. It’s putting the audience in Jon and Tyrion’s shoes... wanting to believe the best about Dany despite all the evidence, then confronted with the worst. You don’t want to believe you’ve so misjudged this person you’ve followed for so long.

And I think that’s the point. The show wants you to question your devotion to leaders who preach revenge.

To question our own need for revenge (isn’t it enough that Cersei is dead and out of power?).

To ask us to be Arya... who turns away from revenge and in so doing saves herself... and not Jaime who, for all his efforts, couldn’t overcome the poison in his life.

Or even, dim as he can be sometimes, to be Jon, who tries (however futily) to stop the violence being committed against the innocents there (not out of revenge on the people perpetrating it... he pulled the one Northman off the girl and tried to get him stop what he was doing and only killed him when he attacked Jon... but to actually save the victims).

Or to be Varys, who sees a way that doesn’t end in more deaths than the Hiroshima bomb and risks his life to try and that come to pass using words not blades.

GRRM is a man who registered as a conscientious objector rather than serve in war or run away/dodge the draft. Dany the great benevolent conqueror was NEVER going to be the ending for a man with convictions like that. People who find ways make peace and who try to save others, who stumble and fall but keep trying to the right thing are his heroes.

[GodsBeloved]

On 5/13/2019 at 5:41 AM, WaltersHair said:

I'm working with someone who loves Varys and hasn't seen episode 5. She keeps say how great it would be if he was the ruler because he always does what's best for the 7 kingdoms. I'm dying inside just a little.

Let sweet summer child enjoy the time Varys has left.

Edited May 14, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

Is anyone alive?

Arya.  And probably Tyrion, since he didn't appear to enter King's Landing.  Hopefully Jon and Davos, but I'm not counting on it.

12 hours ago, Arynm said:

I think Arya has one new name on her list.

As she should.

12 hours ago, MichaelaRae said:

But I CANNOT and WILL NOT EVER be okay with Cersei getting off with a roof falling on her.

I wanted her death to be slow and very painful, but I accepted years ago that I probably wouldn't get what I wanted.

12 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I did not even understand it.... stupid me. Was Tyrion a traitor? Was he trying to have Jamie orchestrate a false surrender? Is that why Cersei looked so smug at first? 

Did I say I am confused? 

And why was Varys killed? Because he spilled the beans about Jon? 

Varys was killed because he was acting against Dany by getting out the word about Jon's parentage, presenting him as an option to her, and by approaching Jon about being king.  Although how much of this Dany actually knew as opposed to assuming, I'm not sure.

I think Tyrion was genuinely trying to save the city and its people by getting Jaime to convince Cersei to surrender.

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany's reputation as a fearless and ruthless but ultimately humane queen ruined by her torching a city AFTER THEY SURRENDERED.

Dany's only been ultimately humane because she's had advisors who could talk her out of her worst instincts.  Two of those people are now dead (Jorah and Ser Barristan), and she no longer trusts Tyrion.  She'd have gone all fire and blood on the masters during the battle in Meeren but Tyrion convinced her not to.

[steelyis]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But the original premise was that she never compromises, period.

Besides that, on camera nobody ever even floated the reigning side by side with Jon idea.  Varys nixed it, not because he was sure she would reject it, but because he thought Dany was too strong for Jon, and would dominate the shared reign, and he apparently wanted a weaker ruler.  

The post my post was replying to was specifically suggesting Dany give up part of Westeros as a compromise. Something Dany's pathological and jealous desire for the Iron Throne would never allow her to do.

She will have it all or all of it will burn.

Edited May 13, 2019 by steelyis

[ACW]

10 hours ago, enoughcats said:

When he took off a ring, I expected him to dump poison from it into his chalice and drink it.

The fact that he didn't, makes me think that he left them for the serving girl.  Not just as payment, but also so she can still use the poison within to kill Dany later.

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, RealReality said:

YASS please!

IMHO, people who burn up innocent children when a city has surrendered aren't "complex," they are very easy....because they are evil, or crazy (mad).  Some actions are beyond justification and equivocation.

Not even cersei killed her people en masse when they submitted to her, and she was the most evil character on the show.  Cersei was evil, but most of her horrible deeds made some sort of sense.  Dany burning that city made no sense.  Dany isn't fit to rule a damn thing.

I also think it's a disservice to compare Dany to people suffering under the yoke of apartheid.  Dany had all the power and killed a city full of people.  People in s. Africa had no power and their purpose in violence was to try to simply get equality.  Dany had absolutely no reason to burn that city.

But yeah, roasting up kids after a city has surrendered and you already won is very very black and white to me.  There is no grey in that situation.

Pro tip - if you love your child dragons so much, stop trotting them out every chance you get knowing that they can be killed.  Dany knew, from the night king fight that her dragons were vulnerable.  

I agree.  I think the writing was horrendous and out of character, but as written, Dany is no longer complex, but evil

Halfway decent writers would have either written the torching of KL in a more complex way, or shown Dany's path into madness and evil in a coherent way.  They could have created a situation where she had the choice of torching civilians or losing the war.  Or they could have shown her lose it, in a properly motivated moment of rage, like when Missandei was murdered.  But, for her to regroup for a week and plan a new attack and then do that, made no sense.  

Back when they were going by the books, the big surprises always made perfect sense, if you thought about it.   

Joffrey was never going to show mercy to someone who went against him, so Ned losing his head made perfect sense. 

The Red Wedding also made perfect sense.  Walder Frey was a spiteful, vindictive man, who Robb had legitimately wronged.     

Subverting the tradition that the good guys, especially the main characters, somehow escape was outstanding, clever writing.

Having characters behave in totally random, idiotic, out of character ways is the opposite of good writing.   

[lucindabelle]

Cersei was talking about one good shot when the scorpions were gone.

she talked about soldiers fighting for her when she literally has been abusing the people for years.

she deliberately used the people as a human shield.

but it’s dany who’s crazy. And worse than Cersei?

we never saw the faces of the families of the people in the sept. So we didn’t see the horrors Cersei inflicted.

that edit was saved for dany.

[terrymct]

18 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The problem is that there's no groundwork for Varys's decision here, not enough of one at any rate. He likes brood-y leaders therefore Jon's best? Jon's more popular? He knows popularity doesn't make an effective leader. They spent plenty of time with Varys on vacation or spening episodes looking pinched faced in the background, they could have shown him starting to make this calculation a little more. People even point to burning the Tarlys...what choice did they leave her? She couldn't make that pronouncement in front of Tarly soldiers and then NOT execute Randall (you can't blame her for Dickon). How's it better if one of the Dothraki arakh his head clean off rather than burning him by dragon fire? They needed more than three or four scenes where Varys expresses or demonstrates some sort of consternation with SPECIFICS. Instead it just kind of feels like he decides all at once. He also never takes any responsibility for what's happened, nor does Tyrion. THAT would have been a very interesting scene. 

Dany knows little or nothing about Westeros.  Her brother taught her stories, who knows if she she had any information beyond that.  She's been learning on the job about leadership via trial and error in the Dothraki lands and Meereen.  Since she's been in Westeros, she hasn't done much to start laying the groundwork for her reign, such as understanding the politics.  She wasn't very good at that sort of thing across the sea, either.  Her sole goal has been to gain the throne with one site trip to the North that she did for love rather than strategic interest or because she wanted to save Westeros.   She doesn't know the place or the people.  They don't know her beyond the fact that she has a family connection to the Mad King and she has dragons.  She's a conqueror, not a ruler.

Jon has the connections within Westeros as well as the heredity.  Let's not even talk gender.  He'd be the stronger candidate regardless of whether he's male or female.

I agree that it would have been nice to have more episodes to flesh out Varys' thought process and his efforts to inform the Westerosi lords.  

[Scaeva]

16 minutes ago, KLeewrite said:

I liked this episode, although I admit there were problems, specifically that Daenerys’s transformation into the “mad queen” felt rushed — I get why it happened and I know that there have been references to the show going in this direction for a while, but I think there needed to be more buildup.

But I think, also, that I know what the main theme is now. It’s not so much that war is hell or power corrupts — although that’s a lot of it. It’s that vengeance corrupts. It’s self-destructive and self-defeating, something that the Hound made explicit last night. Cersei basically has run on vengeance, against Robert Baratheon for shaming and humiliating her, against Tyrion (who she thought killed Joffrey), against the Martells for killing her daughter, against the Sparrow and his followers. Daenerys’s quest also has been based in no small part upon vengeance against those who took the Iron Throne from her family — her final destruction here is also in large part about vengeance against those who killed her dragon, killed her advisor and friend, and won’t welcome her with open arms. For a few years now, I’ve seen a lot of comments about Arya turning into a soulless killing machine based on her quest for vengeance. And obviously, the Hound has turned himself inside out from vengeance.

Good post.

A quest for vengeance also ultimately destroyed Robb & Catelyn Stark. 

[Constantinople]

Quote

Tyrion: Try. If not for yourself, if not for her, then for every one of the million people in that city, innocent or otherwise.

Jaime: To be honest, I never really cared much for them. Innocent or otherwise.

Then why did Jaime kill the Mad King?

Based on that quote in this episode, it sounds a lot less like he was trying to save the city, and a lot more like he was trying to save his own ass, and possibly his father's.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

52 minutes ago, Wendy said:

100% agree

I guess that is the part that I am struggling more with this morning.  Not with the production of the episode but with viewers reactions. Whether it was poorly written, whether it was too rushed, whether it was unexpected for some viewers the only thing that matters is what we saw on our screens. 

We saw a woman blind with rage, a woman who has decided that in order to feel no remorse for killing Varys she was going to pin the blame on Sansa, not her who gave the order to Dracarys, but Sansa who is not even the one who told Varys, a woman scorned because the guy she wanted had moral principles and couldn't be with his aunt, a woman who has decided before the attack what her course of action was going to be, we all saw her burn civilians and children. We saw her use her dragon to burn thousands upon thousands of innocent people. 

Yet some are still looking for excuses, it was Jon's fault because he couldn't bring himself to give her the D.. , it was Sansa's fault because she told the secret, it was Cersei's fault because she killed Missandei, it was Tyrion's fault because she told Varys, it was Varys fault because he wanted to spread the news, THEY, THEY, THEY, THEY drove her out of her mind with grief, it it their fault she snapped, poor Daenerys just couldn't help herself. 

Daenerys and only Daenerys gave the order to her dragon to burn innocent people when they had surrendered, her armies only followed her lead. She is the one responsible for this massacre, if we took pain, grief, jealousy and resentment as the perfect excuse to go about killing people then just about any crime could be forgiven. 

I am not surprised by her behavior as I have known what she was capable of, I am just baffled by the willingness to find excuses and try to justify her abominable and cruel behavior. The best villains in real history are the ones charismatic enough to talk about justice and change but they are the worse kind of tyrants, we are so willing to believe. This just shows me that we haven't learn from history, we still are looking for saviors in all the wrong places. 

When you described Dany this way, it reminded me of what I thought when she said that Sansa had as much a hand in Varys' death as Dany did - that is the same kind of shit that an abuser says to justify their abusive behavior: "Why did you make me hit you again? You know I go crazy when other guys look at you! It's YOUR fault that I did that! You made me do it!"

Whatever trauma Dany has been through (and I don't deny that she's been through a lot of trauma in her life), she still chose to burn thousands of innocent people who she's been claiming are her people and her subjects.

But that doesn't mean Dany is worse than Cersei. Cersei flat out said in the previous episode: "Keep the gates open. If she wants to take the castle, she'll have to murder thousands of innocent people first." According to Dany, Tyrion played into Sansa's hand and did exactly what she wanted by telling people about Jon's parentage, but Dany played right into Cersei's hands and did exactly what she wanted by killing all of those people." Cersei wanted them inside the walls not to protect them but to sacrifice them to Dany's violence in the hopes of making Dany look bad. That makes Cersei just as culpable in their deaths. If she had told people to stay in their homes, they wouldn't have been in the Red Keep for Dany to set on fire.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Kanner said:

The Unsullied were 100% in character.  When we first meet them we are told they will only kill who they are told to kill.  When Dany decided to not listen to the surrender that was their cue to follow their leader.

While the scene with Jon telling his men not to fight was both for us to see he is not following Dany and to contrast the downside to an Unsullied army.

Agree that they unsullied were in character.  There is a moment, after the bell rings, where grey work pauses and looks up at the sky.  When he sees Dany flying her dragon in to wreak havoc, he immediately starts fighting again.  He followed his commander.....he was ready to stop if his commander/queen said so.  But once it was clear that Dany wanted to keep fighting, that's what he did.  

I think he was happy to do it because of missendei but I think that he would have stopped had Dany wanted him to.

2 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I haven't done a rewatch but did she say that hated her? I thought she said they didn't love her which isn't saying they hate her.

You're probably right.  I registered this line as her believing they hated her.  

1 hour ago, Kanner said:

I haven't read the whole thread so if someone brought this up already, sorry.  Why do you think Dany told Tyrion that Jaime was captured?  Do you think she was testing him? If she was, he definitely failed. It just seemed like weird timing.  But every character seems to tell people information at the oddest times.

I think she was pissed at Tyrion, like "oh yeah, that brother you convinced me to save?  We found him trying to sneak out of the city.  You're a moron and your family is shitty"

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But the original premise was that she never compromises, period.

Besides that, on camera nobody ever even floated the reigning side by side with Jon idea.  Varys nixed it, not because he was sure she would reject it, but because he thought Dany was too strong for Jon, and would dominate the shared reign, and he apparently wanted a weaker ruler.  

I think varys point was that having Dany and Jon co-rule could only work if Jon was willing to go toe to toe with Dany over what's right.  To temper her worst instincts.  But Jons love for Dany made him too weak to truly stand up to her, therefore they would never "co-rule" it would just be Dany ruling.  Which varys thought was dangerous.

[Indi]

Well, there it was! Beautiful cinematography wasted on a mostly shitty episode.

Varys: Remember when he said: "He would see this country burn if he could be King of the ashes"? Apparently Littlefinger wasn't the only one. He had one of the best deaths this season. Even better, the man, who betrayed him, knows Varys was right and he will have to live with it.

Dany: This wasn't mad Dany. This was bloodthirsty, ruthless, vicious and fully aware Dany. Her brain didn't malfunction. She wasn't hearing voices and she wasn't fighting hallucinations. She consciously chose fear and now everybody will have to live with the consequences. Even if I don't like her actions, I'll take evil Dany over crazy Dany any day. At least, they didn't take away her agency.

Jon: He has been the most useless character for the longest time and I'm tired of him. I wish he had spared me yet another "You're my queen" "She's my queen". Useless, boring, stupid. He should have died by dragon fire.

Cersei, oh Cersei! How I wish she had done something else than stare out of the balcony for more than half the episode. Very pretty for sure, but I expected more energy from her. And yet, the few minutes she moved talked and emoted, she had me mesmerized. I hated Cersei, but Lena is my queen. She acted circles around everyone else. Oh, and she gave the biggest laugh with that swerve around The Hound and The Mountain.

Jaime: IDGAF. Good riddance. Sorry, Tyrion!

Tyrion: I don't know how to feel about him. I think he meant good, but still trusting Cersei? Dumb! Also, I think he was more than a little hypocritical in regards to Varys. I suspect Tyrion made sure Varys would make a move against Dany, so that he didn't have to do it.

The Hound: He got his closure his own way and saved Arya in that touching scene. I will miss him.

Euron: You couldn't even kill Jaime right!

Arya: She needs to do the next queen slaying.

The white horse: Such a beauty! 😍

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When you described Dany this way, it reminded me of what I thought when she said that Sansa had as much a hand in Varys' death as Dany did - that is the same kind of shit that an abuser says to justify their abusive behavior: "Why did you make me hit you again? You know I go crazy when other guys look at you! It's YOUR fault that I did that! You made me do it!"

Whatever trauma Dany has been through (and I don't deny that she's been through a lot of trauma in her life), she still chose to burn thousands of innocent people who she's been claiming are her people and her subjects.

I don't see it that way.  Jon did, in a sense betray her, though she really should have commanded him instead of begging him, not to tell Sansa.   

Sansa set out to undermine her and told Tyrion.  Tyrion blabbed to Varys, which got Varys plotting treason and the poisoning of their Queen.  

If she had Drogon roast Jon, Sansa, Tyrion and Varys, I wouldn't have liked it, but I would have understood it, and considered it reasonable writing.  But having her torch tens of thousands of innocent women and children, because he inner circle was disloyal to her made no sense.  

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

Rhaegal was injured which is why Jon didn't ride him so I could see that being one reason he got shot down but yes I agree that a lot is plot driven instead of character driver.

Oh, the whole idea of a 20,000 pound dragon being healthy enough to fly, but injured enough to notice a 160 pound man on his back,  is just dumb. As was having Davos, who knows the coastline of Westeros better than anyone, riding south on a horse, instead of sailing with Missandei and Greyworm, Dany flying above. Think about that. Davos has spent his entire life spotting enemy ships before they spot him, but at the moment the most critical sailing mission of his life takes place, he rides a horse, while Dany, who apparently slugs down 8 bloody marys before lunch, forgets about a guy named Euron and his fleet. 

The reality is that last night's episode, in terms of coherent narrative, was doomed before it started, due to the lazy assed writing that preceded it. You can't pile up a mound of horesh*t  20 feet high, and then pull out a golden horsehoe from under it at the last moment.

Like I said, the shame of it is that there is the seed of a good finish here. A conflict among the anti-Cersei leadership, with regard to what are acceptable methods of attaining victory, is inherently interesting. Especially in the context of some major characters becoming entirely repulsed by what it means to wage general war on civilian populations. That doesn't mean, however, that you can just write whatever you want to produce that conflict,  without regard for any internal logic for the world portrayed, and the traits of the major characters, and still have a coherent story.

To be fair to the t.v. writers, some of this is Martin's doing, but that doesn't absolve the writers of having some frank conversations, at the beginning of the relationship, of tying together this world more tightly. How these dragons exist in this world, without making plot developments either utterly predictable, or utterly nonsensical, would have been a good place to start.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Bannon

[RealReality]

7 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Cersei was talking about one good shot when the scorpions were gone.

she talked about soldiers fighting for her when she literally has been abusing the people for years.

she deliberately used the people as a human shield.

but it’s dany who’s crazy. And worse than Cersei?

we never saw the faces of the families of the people in the sept. So we didn’t see the horrors Cersei inflicted.

that edit was saved for dany.

I hated cersei, but I think all that talk was pure desperation because she knew the battle was over and she didn't want it to be.

Yep, cersei used her people as a human shield, Dany fell for the bait and burned them to a crisp....AFTER they had surrendered.

And Dany didn't just burn up the people surrounding cersei, she burned people who were seemingly miles away.

For all cersei's shit, her evil made some sort of logical sense.  Like if you got in cersei's way, man, woman or child she would destroy you.  Dany just burned people to a crisp en masse for no reason that is rooted in logic.  

Even though she will try to argue it was a logical move because they didn't love her or because she was being merciful or whatever....and that makes her 10x more dangerous.  Because she will be able to "reason" her way out of things that are as bad if not worse.

[steelyis]

2 minutes ago, Seppuku said:

I guess those complaining forgot about her agreeing to exchange one of her dragons for the unsullied only to have the dragons burn the person that owned them; burning the slaver to intimidate the others,

Don't re-write history!

That slaver did get to own the dragon... for two minutes.

Hey. it counts!😀

[Constantinople]

One dragon destroyed the Iron Fleet armed with scorpions, all of the land based scorpions, most of battlements, the Golden Company and what was left of the Lannister army.

Imagine what 3 dragons could have done in combination with a full fleet, the entire complement of the Unsullied and Dothraki when facing a scorpion free city.

One thing this episode proves is that there was absolutely no reason Daenerys couldn't have taken out Cersei and captured the city in Episode 2 of last season, and with much less destruction.

But the writers had to keep Cersei around, and they had to ruin Dany, all for cheap shock value

[Bali]

55 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It would have been much more credible if the the show runners wrote a scenario where Daenerys mistakenly thought the ringing of the bells was a trap. After all, it's not as if Cersei can be trusted.

But no, Disco Queen must destroy everything

But which song drove her mad?

You can ring my bell-l-l

Ring my bell

or

Burn baby burn, disco inferno

Burn baby burn, burn that mother down

Dany didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world's been turning. No?

Okay, how about, Sandor and Gregor fell into a burning ring of fire. No? Fire on the Mountain and blood on the plow? No.

[Drogo]

Just now, steelyis said:

That slaver did get to own the dragon... for two minutes.

Technically he's still the dragon's legal guardian.  Unfortunately he has no next of kin because he was a dickhead (and funny-looking.) 

[Wendy]

3 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Fuck this season.Yet again, they tell a story without understanding how to build it. You want to have Dany burn KL? Fine. Have her go in with massive firepower, defeat the Redshirt Company, and then have the fires that have already been started go out of control. Dragons are good at making fire. Not so good at stopping it. She could sit and watch from above, looking stunned in close-up but aloof to people on the ground who can't really see her and just assume that she's gloating or whatever, and then Jon can have his "Bruce Wayne at the beginning of Batfleck v Superman" moment. You still get your conflict, but you also still get your characters.

So what did we actually learn this week? Dany has suddenly gone moustache-twirlingly out-of-character evil supervillain crazy. Because she's a Targaryan. And Targaryans do that. So instead of to her... the throne should go to Jon. Because... he's a Targaryan. 

Jon shouldn't be in the throne exactly because he is half Targaryen. He has absolutely no political skills and is a horrible judge of character. He needs to stay away from any position of power. 

Now I can totally see why Jon could decide to go and live with the free folk. After this massacre I would be completely ashamed to show my face anywhere let alone the North knowing that I used my title and my prestige to vouch for someone like Daenerys, that I brought my men to fight this war where they became savages who were on par with the Dotraki, that I had the chance to do something to change this and didn't lift a finger. 

I would be so ashamed that I shoved this tyrant down people's face and called her my queen, let alone had a intimate relationship with her. If Jon has a shred of conscience he will not take the throne and will atone for his lack of leadership by leaving and installing a council that will split the kingdoms into independent regions. That Iron Throne is cursed and should be destroyed. 

[Bryce Lynch]

9 minutes ago, Indi said:

Well, there it was! Beautiful cinematography wasted on a mostly shitty episode.

Varys: Remember when he said: "He would see this country burn if he could be King of the ashes"? Apparently Littlefinger wasn't the only one. He had one of the best deaths this season. Even better, the man, who betrayed him, knows Varys was right and he will have to live with it.

Dany: This wasn't mad Dany. This was bloodthirsty, ruthless, vicious and fully aware Dany. Her brain didn't malfunction. She wasn't hearing voices and she wasn't fighting hallucinations. She consciously chose fear and now everybody will have to live with the consequences. Even if I don't like her actions, I'll take evil Dany over crazy Dany any day. At least, they didn't take away her agency.

Jon: He has been the most useless character for the longest time and I'm tired of him. I wish he had spared me yet another "You're my queen" "She's my queen". Useless, boring, stupid. He should have died by dragon fire.

Cersei, oh Cersei! How I wish she had done something else than stare out of the balcony for more than half the episode. Very pretty for sure, but I expected more energy from her. And yet, the few minutes she moved talked and emoted, she had me mesmerized. I hated Cersei, but Lena is my queen. She acted circles around everyone else. Oh, and she gave the biggest laugh with that swerve around The Hound and The Mountain.

Jaime: IDGAF. Good riddance. Sorry, Tyrion!

Tyrion: I don't know how to feel about him. I think he meant good, but still trusting Cersei? Dumb! Also, I think he was more than a little hypocritical in regards to Varys. I suspect Tyrion made sure Varys would make a move against Dany, so that he didn't have to do it.

The Hound: He got his closure his own way and saved Arya in that touching scene. I will miss him.

Euron: You couldn't even kill Jaime right!

Arya: She needs to do the next queen slaying.

The white horse: Such a beauty! 😍

I could take ruthless, for a reason (even if it were a totally selfish reason) Dany, but not cruel towards innocents for the sake of being cruel Dany.

I don't think Tyrion wanted Varys to make a move against Dany.  He was just floating options with Varys and I think he was shocked when Varys turned so hard against Dany and all but told him he planned to murder her.  When Varys gave him that look he said, plaintively, "Please" and then in a threatening tone, "Don't!"   

I was wondering if Arya would now fulfill her promise of going to KL to kill the Queen, on Dany, but I'll have to find out here, as I'm not wasting my time watching the finale.  

[Uncle JUICE]

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

One dragon destroyed the Iron Fleet armed with scorpions, all of the land based scorpions, most of battlements, the Golden Company and what was left of the Lannister army.

Imagine what 3 dragons could have done in combination with a full fleet, the entire complement of the Unsullied and Dothraki when facing a scorpion free city.

One thing this episode proves is that there was absolutely no reason Daenerys couldn't have taken out Cersei and captured the city in Episode 2 of last season, and with much less destruction.

But the writers had to keep Cersei around, and they had to ruin Dany, all for cheap shock value

Here here! Imagine a different ending to this show that's far more in keeping with the show that beheaded NEd Stark before the first season was even over. The one where S7E2 latest, King's Landing is captured peaceably through show of force (everyone descending on King's Landing all at once, but just literally landing there at the Red Keep with the dragons, armies outside the gates), Danerys is seated, Cersei is executed, Jamie either dies or takes the black, the remainder of S7 is the beginning and middle of the Mad Queen arc (gaslit by various courtesans and advisors, pushing her inadvertently to paranoia), S7 ends with the parentage reveal and Varys and Tyrion both learning of it, just as Jon Snow arrives in KL to ask for help against the undead army, and having to decide what to do.  

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, Leroux said:

Probably not, Jon loves his Queen and didn't blink an eye when Varys was burned to a crisp.

I hope he knows that the next one in front of Drogon is going to be Sansa. 

He probably won't care, as long as Daenerys gets to sit on her throne we all should be happy. 

He actually looked disturbed by Varys' execution, and positively ill when he saw how bad things were going in Kings Landing.  So I think he'll turn on Dany.

12 hours ago, voiceover said:

know I might be the only member of this club, but I took no joy in CleganeBowl.  Just another example of a blown character arc.

I didn't view it as a blown character arc because I never cared about the Hound to begin with and had no interest in a Clegane Bowl.

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I didn’t see Dany as going mad.  If you saw basically two of your children murdered in front of you, would you be all, “okay, it’s all good?”

I saw her as going mad.  Otherwise she wouldn't have set fire to the entire city.

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

For starters I would not have had Jaime crawling back to Cersei. 

Yeah, that's my one big disappointment with this episode.  I mean, I kinda get it - they were born together, and have been tied to each other for their entire lives, so they die together.  But still, I wanted Jaime to either stay in the North, or to kill Cersei himself.

12 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

I didn't understand that either and Daenarys let off with "Jon betrayed me".

Dany didn't want Jon to tell anyone about his parentage, especially his sisters.  It was obvious that she realized others did know, so Jon must've at least told his sisters.  Which, in her mind, means he betrayed her.

[Drogo]

We're probably not going to agree whether torching KL was the right thing. 

But I think we can agree... that 50 years from now...

we will all remember the greatest moment of the entire series...

Spoiler

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

We're probably not going to agree whether torching KL was the right thing. 

But I think we can agree... that 50 years from now...

we will all remember the greatest moment of the entire series...

  Hide contents

1000 likes to you sir. Remember when Tyrion was blond? Before his perm?

Edited May 13, 2019 by Uncle JUICE

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I hated cersei, but I think all that talk was pure desperation because she knew the battle was over and she didn't want it to be.

Yep, cersei used her people as a human shield, Dany fell for the bait and burned them to a crisp....AFTER they had surrendered.

And Dany didn't just burn up the people surrounding cersei, she burned people who were seemingly miles away.

For all cersei's shit, her evil made some sort of logical sense.  Like if you got in cersei's way, man, woman or child she would destroy you.  Dany just burned people to a crisp en masse for no reason that is rooted in logic.  

Even though she will try to argue it was a logical move because they didn't love her or because she was being merciful or whatever....and that makes her 10x more dangerous.  Because she will be able to "reason" her way out of things that are as bad if not worse.

The human shields didn't work.  Dany took out the main gate, the Golden Company, the Iron Fleet, all the scorpions and many Lannister soldiers with Drogon, with precision strikes, little to no collateral damage. 

It was only after the battle was won that she started slaughtering innocents, against whom she had no beef.  Absurdly bad writing.  

[jay741982]

55 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Nothing about Varys was irrational and he didn't show a bit of hatred.  He weighed which one would make a better ruler and would be better accepted by the lords of Westeros.   That's not irrational hatred.

And the one he felt he could control. 

[GodsBeloved]

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I always preferred Theon's redemption arc to Jaime's because he felt actual remorse for the suffering he had caused and wanted to atone by helping those he had hurt, but wow,

This is why I loved Theon and (one of the reasons) why I hated Jaime. I never felt he felt remorse for any of the things he did. It's also another reason why Brienne giving him sex was more than puke worthy for me. Yeah he wanted I just looked death in the face and survived sex but he was never sorry for how he belittled Brienne. NEVER.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

One dragon destroyed the Iron Fleet armed with scorpions, all of the land based scorpions, most of battlements, the Golden Company and what was left of the Lannister army.

Imagine what 3 dragons could have done in combination with a full fleet, the entire complement of the Unsullied and Dothraki when facing a scorpion free city.

One thing this episode proves is that there was absolutely no reason Daenerys couldn't have taken out Cersei and captured the city in Episode 2 of last season, and with much less destruction.

But the writers had to keep Cersei around, and they had to ruin Dany, all for cheap shock value

Which means the fatal errors of this story, like most fatal errors of stories, took place with the original conception of the story. Neither Martin or the t.v. writers really ever solved the problem of dragons, and how they shape human behavior.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

1000 likes to you sir ser.

FIFY, and a thousand more from me. 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Just more horrible writing.  They show Varys as having an irrational hatred of Dany, once he found out that Jon had a better claim.  Dany hadn't done anything to make him turn against her, he just thought that he, the all wise Eunuch, who should get to decide on his own, who gets to rule the Realm, had found a better King.  

So, instead of trying to convince her to step aside or leaving her camp and working against her, he writes raven scrolls against her, inside her own castle, and tries to have her poisoned, which if successful might have left Cersei in charge, as Drogon might not have fought for anyone else.

But, they make him "right".  

It is along the same lines of Jaime being "right" for going back to his treacherous, murderous, incestuous sister (who sent Bronn to murder him) and giving them a romantic ending.  

Just horrible, horrible storytelling.

If Varys had more tangible cause for turning on her, or she had burned him for speaking his mind to her to her face, as she had commanded him to, then they reasonably could have made Varys a good guy.  

Dany lost Varys when she roasted the Tarlys... Because burning ppl alive is worrisome... Sure execution in all the ways is bad.. And them not bending the knee put her on her back.. But she could've just jailed them a bit.. Instead... Like her daddy she roasted them.. And he immediately started to hedge... 

If you honestly think Varys had any chance of getting her to step aside we may have been watching two different television shows... 

I would've preferred that after he told her to her face that she was making a mistake and she decided against his counsel.. That he said to her I'm out... Instead of maybe trying to poison her ( not sure if his concern was to kill her or just to see of she was out of her funk) but they went the way they went.. 

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, jay741982 said:

57 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Nothing about Varys was irrational and he didn't show a bit of hatred.  He weighed which one would make a better ruler and would be better accepted by the lords of Westeros.   That's not irrational hatred.

And the one he felt he could control. 

[Raachel2008]

57 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The problem is that there's no groundwork for Varys's decision here, not enough of one at any rate. He likes brood-y leaders therefore Jon's best? Jon's more popular? He knows popularity doesn't make an effective leader. They spent plenty of time with Varys on vacation or spening episodes looking pinched faced in the background, they could have shown him starting to make this calculation a little more. People even point to burning the Tarlys...what choice did they leave her? She couldn't make that pronouncement in front of Tarly soldiers and then NOT execute Randall (you can't blame her for Dickon). How's it better if one of the Dothraki arakh his head clean off rather than burning him by dragon fire? They needed more than three or four scenes where Varys expresses or demonstrates some sort of consternation with SPECIFICS. Instead it just kind of feels like he decides all at once. He also never takes any responsibility for what's happened, nor does Tyrion. THAT would have been a very interesting scene. 

I watched this episode with a few friends, one of them asked "Wait, when did Varys started 'plotting' again?". The answer is easy: Varys never stopped 'plotting', ie, working behind the scenes, but we are 8 episodes shorter in the entire series because season 7 and 8 should have been 10 episodes.

That means at least 600 minutes of screentime to develop all those stories and scenes leading to the final episodes, including Varys' actions. Am I supposed to believe that he had no little birds in Mereen? That he was just standing there 'looking pinched face'? There was no screentime for that and the little they had they decided to give to stuff I personally find irrelevant - a thousand close up of Cersei smirking, too much dragons flying, etc.

But any way you see this, Varys has made pretty clear he would have no problems switching sides if he felt Dany was not the real deal. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Raachel2008

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

This is why I loved Theon and (one of the reasons) why I hated Jaime. I never felt he felt remorse for any of the things he did. It's also another reason why Brienne giving him sex was more than puke worthy for me. Yeah he wanted I just looked death in the face and survived sex but he was never sorry for how he belittled Brienne. NEVER.

And on top of that Jaime was definitely not sorry about any of the other things he did (like killing his cousin). Even though he apologized to Bran and said he's not the same person anymore, I'm pretty sure that if Jaime had a time machine he would still make the same choices. I think the only choices he might make differently would be to try to prevent Myrcella from dying, but I don't think he has any remorse for all of the horrible things he has done in the name of loving Cersei.

Theon, on the other hand, was clearly ashamed of what he'd done and how he had hurt people.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[GodsBeloved]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

[jay741982]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

Yep her too! Her and Varys both felt they could Control Jon and in Sansa's case Dany saw right through as her. Another reason she didnt like Dany. Sansa showed not even keeping a lid on something her brother said for a freaking day that she cares more about herself than anything 

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

That means at least 600 minutes of screentime to develop all those stories and scenes leading to the final episodes, including Varys' actions. Am I supposed to believe that he had no little birds in Mereen? That he was just standing there 'looking pinched face'? There was no screentime for that and the little they had they decided to give to stuff I personally find irrelevant - a thousand close up of Cersei smirking, too much dragons flying, etc.

I think we agree here. I'm not saying he couldn't have been doing it...what I'm saying is that it's not fair to ask a viewer like you to ASSUME it's being done, especially when he starts to question his choice of leader. Yeah, maybe get rid of one of the Theon scenes someplace and show my Varys working his Mereenese little bird crew, or gtting some sort of raven scroll from Ilyrio. Maybe throw in a conversation post Tarly-cue that has him and Dany discussing their execution a little more, him pushing back on her a little more. 

[Drogo]

Euron:  "I'm the man who killed Jamie Lannister."

KL: 

[Heathrowe]

39 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I agree.  I think the writing was horrendous and out of character, but as written, Dany is no longer complex, but evil

Halfway decent writers would have either written the torching of KL in a more complex way, or shown Dany's path into madness and evil in a coherent way.  They could have created a situation where she had the choice of torching civilians or losing the war.  Or they could have shown her lose it, in a properly motivated moment of rage, like when Missandei was murdered.  But, for her to regroup for a week and plan a new attack and then do that, made no sense.  

Back when they were going by the books, the big surprises always made perfect sense, if you thought about it.   

Joffrey was never going to show mercy to someone who went against him, so Ned losing his head made perfect sense. 

The Red Wedding also made perfect sense.  Walder Frey was a spiteful, vindictive man, who Robb had legitimately wronged.     

Subverting the tradition that the good guys, especially the main characters, somehow escape was outstanding, clever writing.

Having characters behave in totally random, idiotic, out of character ways is the opposite of good writing.   

Excellent, excellent post. Thank you.

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Did anyone even bother to explain to Dany beforehand that the bells being rung meant surrender?!  Tyrion seemed to mention it to everyone else except her.

I recall him saying something to her during the scene at Dragonstone, and her agreeing, but I'd have to watch it again.

12 hours ago, screamin said:

To have the woman who gratuitously torched the entire city make sense - you can't just change this episode to make it plausible. You'd have to seed the entire series with hints that she had this in her. I don't think there were quite enough of them.

I felt they did seed previous seasons with sufficient hints, starting with Season 2, but ymmv as always.

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

No because that would make sense and the Dany we knew for 8 seasons would have stopped torching women and children. But you know D&D wanted not just to burn KL to the ground, they also wanted to burn Dany's character to ashes.

Tyrion explained it to her.

12 hours ago, QuinnM said:

I did not see Mad Queen.  I saw someone that was determined to make them pay.  She was angry.  She was not mad.  I bet anything that next episode she is all smiles.  And the next time someone doesn’t do exactly what she wants, exactly when she wants it, and exactly how she wants it ... dracarys.

Tyrion was already afraid of her, Sansa saw it.  Now Jon is afraid of her.  This is not going to end well.

To me, those are the actions of a mad person.  But yeah, everyone except the Dothraki and the Unsullied are going to be afraid of her.

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Thank you for this comment.  I was afraid I was mad for actually liking this episode.  

I liked the episode, too.

12 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Because (1) he was actively working to dethrone her and put someone else in her place; (2) the conversation with the "little bird" suggested he was also trying to poison her; and (3) he had promised her that if he ever had a problem with her, he would look her in the eye and tell her.  He didn't.

She promised that if he ever betrayed her, she would burn him to ashes.

She did.

Except he did tell her in the previous episode.  She just didn't care by that point.

12 hours ago, Drogo said:

She heard the bells and realized this was likely another of Tyrion's "mistakes."

So she followed Missandei's advice instead.  A brilliant woman who never misled her.  Dracarys, indeed. 

I'm not mad at Daenerys.  Fuck Kings Landing. 

How could it have been one of Tyrion's mistakes?  He told her that would mean the city was surrendering, and he was right.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, the "revenge" meant nothing to the people who actually wronged Dany (Cersei, Qyburn and The Mountain).  Between the 3 of them, they didn't give a single shit about anyone in the KL other than themselves.

Cersei got revenge, when she blew up the High Sparrow and tortured Septa Unella.  Also, when she poisoned Tyene and made Ellaria watch her die and decompose.  

Burning a bunch of innocent people who Cersei would have just as easily burned, if it served her purpose, is not revenge.  What it is, is some of the worst writing in history.  

Revenge doesn't always make sense. Cercei planned her revenge in a cool, calculated fashion. Dany was, pardon the pun, burning hot. Besides, she didn't like that the people of Kings Landing hadn't risen up against Cercei to welcome Dany with open arms. So I do think it did actually make sense in that she took out her anger on people who represented every frustration she's had in Westeros, where she received none of the love and loyalty she was raised to believe would be her due.

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

This is why I loved Theon and (one of the reasons) why I hated Jaime. I never felt he felt remorse for any of the things he did. It's also another reason why Brienne giving him sex was more than puke worthy for me. Yeah he wanted I just looked death in the face and survived sex but he was never sorry for how he belittled Brienne. NEVER.

But when Jaime said he regretted anything? Jaime stood in front of Sansa, Jon, Arya e Bran and said he didn't regret the things he did, ie, killing Ned, his part in the war with the Starks, the deaths, deffending Cersei. The only thing he was trully remorseful was pushing Bran from the tower, and even so not because of the war it lead to, but because he crippled a child. And still, you know that he would have done the same thing if had given the chance to change the past.

13 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

And the one he felt he could control. 

More like the one who would be reasonable. It doesn't hurt that Jon is the heir, not Dany.

[UNOSEZ]

Dany chose Fear... She truly believes that with the destruction of KL the rest of the lords will fall in line and she can now go on to rule justly... She said as much when talking to tyrion about mercy.. This sacrifice of ppl and maybe even her personal honor will ensure that cersei is defeated and the ppl are set free with her as a good ruler... I don't see madness anywhere.. I see rationalization and delusion.. Anger and self-aggrandizement.. But not madness

Also.. Robbie Stark was betrayed... Robert Baratheon was betrayed.. Jon Snow was betrayed.. Dany has had a few ppl question her rule and one advisor start to try and make waves

[Law Mom]

33 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Cersei was talking about one good shot when the scorpions were gone.

she talked about soldiers fighting for her when she literally has been abusing the people for years.

she deliberately used the people as a human shield.

but it’s dany who’s crazy. And worse than Cersei?

we never saw the faces of the families of the people in the sept. So we didn’t see the horrors Cersei inflicted.

that edit was saved for dany.

She didn't know the scorpions were all destroyed when she said that. Her comment was perfectly reasonable given their success last time.

Her soldiers fought for her because she paid them, not because she was good to them.

She explained her rationale about the human shields. It was a cold and calculated move. By definition not crazy. Evil, for sure, but not crazy.

We did see the effect of the Sept massacre on at least one family member. I recall a young widower jumping out a window. That conveyed the horror pretty well I think.

[GodsBeloved]

2 hours ago, Kanner said:

I haven't read the whole thread so if someone brought this up already, sorry.  Why do you think Dany told Tyrion that Jaime was captured?  Do you think she was testing him? If she was, he definitely failed. It just seemed like weird timing.  But every character seems to tell people information at the oddest times.

I thought she was saying "See once again you got it wrong."

Tyrion was one of the ones to plead his case and look! he's trying to return to Cersei instead of being loyal to Daenerys and going to fight against Cersei.