S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, qtpye said:

What really bugs me is that his logic is that she can not be a monster because she loves her children and that love has to be pure. Cersei love like a narcissist her children are extensions of herself. She spoiled Joffrey, bringing out the worst in him killed the woman that Tommen loved because she was jealous, and thought her daughter was good so that meant Cersei was also good. 

Tyrion has been a horrible advisor to Dany and part of it is because he still thinks his sister can be reasonable and capable of thinking beyond her own desires. It is particularly bad because he should be the one who is most aware of her treachery.

I loved the beautiful girl from the island of butterflies. I feel horrible for Grey Worm. He might win the award for shittiest life ever but it was all worth it because it led to her. He now has lost his world beyond Dany.

For a man who has seen as much as Tyrion to think the most evil woman in Westeros has good in her is sort of absurd.

I am totally done with Sansa.  But, one thing you have to give her credit for is that, while she is  a slow learner, she did learn.  She learned not to trust LF or Cersei and knew that Ramsay would try some sort of cruel trick to get Jon off his gameplan at the BOTB.  If she weren't so selfish, jealous and power hungry, she would be a real asset in making plans to deal with Cersei.  

[Lamima]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

For a man who has seen as much as Tyrion to think the most evil woman in Westeros has good in her is sort of absurd.

I am totally done with Sansa.  But, one thing you have to give her credit for is that, while she is  a slow learner, she did learn.  She learned not to trust LF or Cersei and knew that Ramsay would try some sort of cruel trick to get Jon off his gameplan at the BOTB.  If she weren't so selfish, jealous and power hungry, she would be a real asset in making plans to deal with Cersei.  

I wonder if Brienne will want to follow Jaime and Sansa will go with her. That way Brienne will keep her oath to watch over Sansa and will get to go help Jaime. And Sansa will get to go have a part of the demise of Cersei which she said she wanted a front row seat to.

[polyhymnia]

23 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Was it just me, or did the walls / gate of Kings Landing look completely different than it did in the last episode of season 7?  I reminded me more of Dany and the baby dragons approaching the gates of Qarth.

I thought they were someplace else for a few minutes. Plus the usual distance questions as to how long it takes to get to Dragonstone and back to KL and how long it will take the group with Jon to get to KL. Not everyone should be able to use little finger's teleport at once.

[benteen]

If Dany loses her last dragon, she loses a LOT of her powerbase.  She'd still have the Unsullied but their numbers have dwindled as well.  She would be very vulnerable to attack or losing her power for good.

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, benteen said:

If Dany loses her last dragon, she loses a LOT of her powerbase.  She'd still have the Unsullied but their numbers have dwindled as well.  She would be very vulnerable to attack or losing her power for good.

Dany is nothing without the dragons at this point.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, rmontro said:

Do you think Sansa would have had the guts to walk up and talk to Qyburn like Tyrion did?  With all that weaponry trained on her?  I think not.

And before that, she complains that Dany wants to take the soldiers south.  Wasn't she complaining before about how there were too many mouths to feed?  Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Sounds like Sansa just wants to complain.

I think it sounds more just like Sansa's the office manager who's always thinking about the practical things. To Dany soldiers mean conquest and getting the throne. To Sansa they're bodies that need to be fed and rested etc.

There's nothing actually insulting in Sansa saying the soldiers should rest a bit before going on a long hike to a battle. She wasn't saying she got to say when they should go. She said they should ask the soldiers' leaders themselves when would be the best time--it could be minimal.

Dany doesn't read as mad to me, so much as illustrating what the show says a lot and characters say about her explicitly. She believes in a narrative about herself and if reality doesn't match up she wants to force it. Her eye is on getting that throne for herself. She's not shy about saying this. Sansa has a different agenda which isn't about ruling herself but is her agenda. That's the way the Game of Thrones part of the show has always worked. People jockey for the thing that fits what they want. Dany tried to force Jon to keep quiet about who he is because she doesn't want it to be true. Jon acted out of the impulse he always has to tell people the truth, even if in this case it was just his family. It was a situation where Arya and Bran were fine with keeping the secret, but Sansa was the opposite of Dany and wanted it in play. 

[andipandi]

Sansa is the last of the Starks;

Arya fully intends to go out with a bang;

Jon is a targaryan,

And Mr. 3eyed raven is good for nothing now.

I don't fault Sansa at all for thinking practically. She was raised by Catelyn to know how to run a house. Dany doesn't know about logistics like that. Destiny means not having to know how many sheaves of wheat an army of 5000 needs for the winter.

Anyway, they are really rushing and cramming things in, which makes deaths like dragon and missendre seem pointless.

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The same was true about just about every other ruler or would be ruler, but many of them could not be talked down.

Cersei

Joffrey

Robert Baratheon

Stannis 

Mance Rayder

Even Jon had to be talked out of deserting the NW.  He also couldn't be talked out of letting the Wildlings through the wall, though it was a good decision.  In addition, he impulsively charged at Ramsay's forces to try to save Rickon (totally understandable, but impulsive).

Who are the truly calm a rational leaders in Westeros?  Maybe Tywin, but he was also evil.  Ned, but he was naive.   

Renly was the best of them. 

In a normal war, he'd have taken the capital and conquered most of his enemies by now. But he was defeated only by dark shadow magic that any reasonable person at the time would think was just ridiculous. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Renly was the best of them. 

In a normal war, he'd have taken the capital and conquered most of his enemies by now. But he was defeated only by dark shadow magic that any reasonable person at the time would think was just ridiculous. 

I'm not sure if Renly was strong enough to be a good king.  But he was the best of the bunch besides Robb, and probably would have taken KL if not for the smoke baby.      

[lucindabelle]

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

Do you think Sansa would have had the guts to walk up and talk to Qyburn like Tyrion did?  With all that weaponry trained on her?  I think not.

And before that, she complains that Dany wants to take the soldiers south.  Wasn't she complaining before about how there were too many mouths to feed?  Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Sounds like Sansa just wants to complain.

A lot of good Tyrion's talking did.

He's really bad at this. To the point of it being suspicious. And if it turns out my suspicions are right, that's also ridiculously bad writing.

13 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

Shouldn't Lyanna and EDD be dust? I know it's better dramatically, but it's a simple rule.

Episode 3 ended with bodies just collapsing everywhere when the Night King died. So them being present is at least consistent with what was shown the previous episode.

Actually, in TV world anyway, looks like white walkers explode, wights just stop. If they are old I guess they'd crumble but a fresh wight wouldn't.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, andipandi said:

Sansa is the last of the Starks;

Arya fully intends to go out with a bang;

Jon is a targaryan,

Jon is as much Stark as he was before.  He was and is half Stark.

He's also half Targaryen.  Does that mean he's going to go mad?

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

I completely agree with both of you and I think it's the common sentiment from fans after last night's episode. People are not buying this sudden push into the Mad Queen ending, and the plot machinations to get her there are too obvious and sloppy.

It's so annoying because they spent the first 6-7 seasons getting us invested into her story, and having her stand up for the weak and powerless, now at the last minute they want to turn her super villain or something.  What I really don't like is that I feel like the SHOW is telling me now that I'm not supposed to root for her.  What's the point of getting me on her side all this time, only to now tell me to think "Oh, that Daenerys, she really was a piece of sh!t all along, wasn't she?". 

I don't expect this to happen, but I feel like the only redeeming arc for her is to say "You know what, I always wanted to be queen of Westeros, but now that I'm here I can see it isn't what I wanted after all.  I belong back east, or on Dragonstone.  Jon, you have the better claim anyway, you take the Iron Throne".

Not before Cersei is taken down though. 

[WatchrTina]

4 hours ago, Lamima said:

I wonder if Brienne will want to follow Jaime and Sansa will go with her. That way Brienne will keep her oath to watch over Sansa and will get to go help Jaime. And Sansa will get to go have a part of the demise of Cersei which she said she wanted a front row seat to.

I think it's safe to say the Sansa plans to stay in Winterfell, possibly forever.  Robb said there should always be a Stark in Winterfell and I think Sansa plans on fulfilling that role.  She has no interest in seeing any more of the world.  It's like what she told that impudent serving wench of Ramsey's, "Winterfell is my HOME and you can't frighten me."  She draws strength from it.

Edited May 6, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Jon is as much Stark as he was before.  He was and is half Stark.

He's also half Targaryen.  Does that mean he's going to go mad?

Every time a new Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin in the air...

[maystone]

10 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

"Hinting" isn't the same as actual character development, which, IMO, is sorely lacking. Dany has been portrayed as a hero throughout the show, and, like other "heroic" characters on said show, has executed or dealt otherwise harshly with her enemies. Yet she's the only one who's being rushed off the deep end with extreme prejudice in the eleventh hour. If I believed that everyone who'd ever had a crazy parent were doomed to be crazy as well, then the half-assed narrative shortcuts being taken here might sit better with me. But I don't, so they don't. 

I think Dany has most usually been shown to be a flawed hero. How many times did she have to be talked down from an extreme stance when it came to her enemies? Not always one for nuance, especially on her early road. I can't remember the season - maybe 3? - when Tyrion trotted out what was taken to be a truism about the vagaries of the Targaryen bloodline: They say that when a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin. That always stuck with me, and it always seemed to me an important part of watching Dany's character arc.

[spaceghostess]

10 minutes ago, maystone said:

I think Dany has most usually been shown to be a flawed hero. How many times did she have to be talked down from an extreme stance when it came to her enemies? Not always one for nuance, especially on her early road. I can't remember the season - maybe 3? - when Tyrion trotted out what was taken to be a truism about the vagaries of the Targaryen bloodline: They say that when a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin. That always stuck with me, and it always seemed to me an important part of watching Dany's character arc.

She is flawed, and that's what I expect from all the characters in this story. The fact that she could--unlike Cersei--be talked down was proof (to me) that she wasn't like her father. I remember when Tyrion said that about the coin flip; it pricked up my ears, too. But when I first watched, and even on my rewatch a couple months ago, there wasn't enough evidence over the seasons to make this hard left into Crazytown plausible to me.  🤷‍♀️

Edited May 7, 2019 by spaceghostess

[go4luca]

3 hours ago, rmontro said:

Not before Cersei is taken down though. 

This better be on the same level as Ramsay's death.  I've been counting the days, hours and seconds just waiting for this moment.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

There's nothing actually insulting in Sansa saying the soldiers should rest a bit before going on a long hike to a battle. She wasn't saying she got to say when they should go. She said they should ask the soldiers' leaders themselves when would be the best time--it could be minimal.

Really, Sansa shouldn't have had to be the one to bring that up. The military commanders should have brought that information to this strategy meeting. They shouldn't have been making military plans at all without knowing how many of their troops are ready to go now, how many have minor injuries that might need a week or so to heal, how many have more serious injuries and are going to be out of action for a longer time. It was really dumb for them to be making plans for an invasion and conquest without actually knowing how many men they have currently fit for fighting.

But there was a lot of Idiot Plotting in this episode, where the plot only works if all the characters are being complete idiots.

Likewise, there's Dany suddenly being all "I want my throne NOW!" in spite of one of her dragons being injured and not at full strength.

Or no one in all the discussion about how they want to take out Cersei but don't want to destroy the city or hurt innocent civilians considering the possibility of sending in an assassination team. They may not know the full extent of Arya's Faceless Man skills, but they know she can pull off a good assassination. They also have Tyrion and Varys, who know ways in and out of the city, and there's the Hound and Jaime, who know their way around.

I'm kind of surprised Tyrion didn't bring up the fact that a lot of Cersei's forces are mercenaries, so waiting as long as possible to attack means raising Cersei's bill if she wants to keep them on retainer and raises the chance that they'll get a better offer and abandon her if they have nothing to do.

All the characters had to lose half their brain cells in order to accelerate the plot to the next plot point with as little fuss as possible.

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, andipandi said:

Sansa is the last of the Starks;

Arya fully intends to go out with a bang;

Jon is a targaryan,

And Mr. 3eyed raven is good for nothing now.

I don't fault Sansa at all for thinking practically. She was raised by Catelyn to know how to run a house. Dany doesn't know about logistics like that. Destiny means not having to know how many sheaves of wheat an army of 5000 needs for the winter.

Anyway, they are really rushing and cramming things in, which makes deaths like dragon and missendre seem pointless.

Dany's been leading, and feeding, armies for years now, a lot longer than Sansa has. The idea that she'd suddenly forget they need to eat is silly.

7 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Who are the truly calm a rational leaders in Westeros?  Maybe Tywin, but he was also evil.  Ned, but he was naive.   

 

(Sorry, but I'm incapable of seeing this question without reminding everyone of my girl Margaery. Damn you Cersei!)

I'll also agree with whoever said Renly could have been good. He was a bit superficial, but decent enough, and most importantly had a gift for making people want to follow him. As long as he had a strong Hand to help with the day to day running of the kingdom he would have served perfectly as the charming, diplomatic figurehead.

Edited May 7, 2019 by AshleyN

[WatchrTina]

I just watched for the second time and I spotted a few noteworthy things that I don't think I've seen mentioned.

During the funeral speech Jon acknowledges all of the dead as honorary members of the Night's Watch.  He says of them all "They died protecting the realms of men and we will never see their like again," which is almost exactly the ritual words they Night's Watch says when they burn their dead.

Sansa gave Theon's corpse a wolf-head token, reiterating what Jon once told him on Dragonstone -- "You're a Greyjoy AND a Stark."

The dead who fought for Winterfell were given a dignified funeral.  I like to think that all the dead wights were dragged into a big pile out of sight of the castle and then Drogon and Rheagon lit 'em up with dragon fire.

When Tormund is regaling the party-goers with stories about Jon's prowess as a dragon-rider he keeps spilling ale on Jon.

Then later, when Tormund is trying to join the clique that had been surrounding Brianne but they all walk away, there is this great moment where Pod -- the only one left -- gives him a big goofy smile as if to say "I'll drink with you" and then Tormund leaves in disgust.  That was a high-school lunch-room drama that played out right there.

Dany "begs" Jon to say nothing about his true identity.  When have we ever seen her beg? And Jon still says he has to tell his sisters. That's a pretty big damned deal to Dany.  It's no wonder she turns so cold after he refuses.

Some have complained about not seeing the scene where Bran tells Arya and Sansa the truth about Jon's parentage.  But I think they were smart to cut away.  We (the audience) already know what is going to be said so why waste time depicting it?  What is more important than seeing the information communicated is seeing how they react AFTER thinking about it for a while.  I don't know if that information is part of what provokes Arya to head down to Kings Landing but it may well be that now she's even more motivated to kill Cersie since her beloved brother cousin is the rightful king.  And we are clearly shown how the information affects Sansa.

Those ship-mounted scorpions were absolutely devastating against Dany's fleet.  It almost makes one wonder why no one has ever thought to doing that before, doesn't it?  Yeah -- that scene in which the ship is absolutely shredded beggars belief.  if those weapons were so devastating in ship-to-ship combat, someone would have thought of that before.  Cross-bow technology was well-known.  I also have to wonder how team Euron managed to hit poor Rhaegon three times including a head shot but they missed Drogon completely thought they sent multiple arrows.  I can try and fan-wank that Drogon is the strongest and most agile of the dragons and Rheagon was already wounded so he had slower response time but . . . nah, it still beggars belief.

When Tyrion says to Varys "Please.  Don't."  What do you think he means?  Don't change sides?  Don't back Jon's claim over Daenerys claim?  Don't decide that Daenerys is bad for the realm? Don't kill Daenerys?  I actually got a vibe of the last one.  Varys is dangerous.

Jaime's final scene with Brienne is visually strange.  Jaime is almost unrecognizable due to the angle from which he is shot. I wonder if that is deliberate or just a fluke of the lighting.  I had originally said that Jaime was going back to Kings Landing to kill his sister.  After all, she sent Bronn to kill him.  But after watching that scene a second time, I'm really not sure anymore.  It may well be that he IS addicted to her and is running to her side because she will soon be under attack.  But I want to believe in the redemption of Jaime Lannister.  I want him to be on his way to Kings Landing to kill Cersie because -- after hearing about the death of another dragon and the loss of all those ships -- he realizes that she might win and he can't let that happen.  He killed one mad king.  Now he's off to try and kill an evil queen. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by WatchrTina

[QuinnM]

35 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Dany "begs" Jon to say nothing about his true identity.  When have we ever seen her beg? And Jon still says he has to tell his sisters. That's a pretty big damned deal to Dany.  It's no wonder she turns so cold after he refuses.

She begged the lord of Quarth for her dragons.  So at least once before.

And on that note, Tormund road a dragon off the island when they captured the wight.  

These people all have dementia.

Edited May 7, 2019 by QuinnM

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Renly was the best of them. 

In a normal war, he'd have taken the capital and conquered most of his enemies by now. But he was defeated only by dark shadow magic that any reasonable person at the time would think was just ridiculous.

You're right. And much as I'm a Dany fan, the best queen of Westeros was Renly's queen, Margery.  God, I miss her. If only she hadn't had a monster for a MIL and an idiot for a king. She manipulated Joffrey to the best of her ability, which is something Sansa never even attempted. She was savvy, understood the game, understood the importance of the people's goodwill and wasn't at all evil. And she had a rockin' badass gramma. 

[Kate47]

8 hours ago, mac123x said:

Was it just me, or did the walls / gate of Kings Landing look completely different than it did in the last episode of season 7?  I reminded me more of Dany and the baby dragons approaching the gates of Qarth.

I definitely feel like that was intentional, to draw a parallel from the last time Dany walked up to a gate and her champion slaughtered theirs. It's another way to highlight her losses and alienation, IMO.

[Andromeda]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

It's so annoying because they spent the first 6-7 seasons getting us invested into her story, and having her stand up for the weak and powerless, now at the last minute they want to turn her super villain or something.  What I really don't like is that I feel like the SHOW is telling me now that I'm not supposed to root for her.  What's the point of getting me on her side all this time, only to now tell me to think "Oh, that Daenerys, she really was a piece of sh!t all along, wasn't she?". 

I don't expect this to happen, but I feel like the only redeeming arc for her is to say "You know what, I always wanted to be queen of Westeros, but now that I'm here I can see it isn't what I wanted after all.  I belong back east, or on Dragonstone.  Jon, you have the better claim anyway, you take the Iron Throne".

Not before Cersei is taken down though. 

That would make my day, but not if it's because she's getting the Mean Girl treatment from Sansa and the other bitchy Westerosi.

The show made a big effort to recast her "rapist" BROTHER, who is just as much sprung from her mad father as she is, as a kindly artistic soul who only wanted love... *snort*

The amount of air time her journey has received, the sprawling set pieces, the amazing sets, and the dramatic MUSIC have all combined to get me on board the Dany train. We've seen her struggle and succeed, and struggle again. So If it derails now, because Varys likes a cock on his ruler, I'll walk away wondering what the writers were smoking...and feel like this.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Andromeda
clarification

[Andromeda]

49 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Those ship-mounted scorpions were absolutely devastating against Dany's fleet.  It almost makes one wonder why no one has ever thought to doing that before, doesn't it?  Yeah -- that scene in which the ship is absolutely shredded beggars belief.  if those weapons were so devastating in ship-to-ship combat, someone would have thought of that before.  Cross-bow technology was well-known. 

Very good point. Those scorpion ballistas should have already been atop the King's Landing walls, and the walls of every other keep. And every large ship. They should be on the shoreline to protect it against the reaving Iron Islanders. 

In our reality, it was a Roman weapon. They were such good engineers.

[rmontro]

And as bad as people feel about Jon Snow not petting Ghost, I feel worse for the dragons getting killed.  Like Ghost, we watched them being raised since they were babies.

[GraceK]

http://chrysreviews.com/index.php/2019/05/07/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4-review/

best so far. Make sure to click the Imgur images. Hilarious!! 

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

You're right. And much as I'm a Dany fan, the best queen of Westeros was Renly's queen, Margery.  God, I miss her. If only she hadn't had a monster for a MIL and an idiot for a king. She manipulated Joffrey to the best of her ability, which is something Sansa never even attempted. She was savvy, understood the game, understood the importance of the people's goodwill and wasn't at all evil. And she had a rockin' badass gramma. 

Yeah Sansa did, she was goading him in fighting on the vanguard in BBWB, and she made an attempt to push him off traitors bridge in S1.

Maregery is ~ 5 years older then Sansa, that's a big advantage in scheming.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Some have complained about not seeing the scene where Bran tells Arya and Sansa the truth about Jon's parentage.  But I think they were smart to cut away.  We (the audience) already know what is going to be said so why waste time depicting it?  What is more important than seeing the information communicated is seeing how they react AFTER thinking about it for a while.  I don't know if that information is part of what provokes Arya to head down to Kings Landing but it may well be that now she's even more motivated to kill Cersie since her beloved brother cousin is the rightful king.  And we are clearly shown how the information affects Sansa.

They also complain Sansa spilled the beans in 10 minutes, she actually was thinking about it at least a day, maybe a day and a half when she and Tyrion spoke.

Had Dani and Jon after party- night

next morning map room and gods wood

that evening -  Bronn, Tyrion and Jaime

Next morning or afternoon -Hound and Arya

Same time or later Sansa and Tyrion and Sansa is visibly worried on Jon going south and she expresses it to Tyrion, and ask him; why Dani? she doesn't trust her, and Tyrion's been played by Cersei, but deep inside he's also worried on Dani.

It clearly shows Sansa worried for Jon, and she offers another option, risking alienating Jon, yet nothing seems anti Sansa between Arya and Bran.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GrailKing
spelling

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Dany's been leading, and feeding, armies for years now, a lot longer than Sansa has. The idea that she'd suddenly forget they need to eat is silly.

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Seems she forgot at the field of fire 2.

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If she weren't so selfish, jealous and power hungry, she would be a real asset in making plans to deal with Cersei.  

She's not any of these things, and she down right told Jon about Cersei and after arguing  she told him he had to be smarter than Ned and Robb and his retort was " how by listening to you "

She also called out Tyrion, for being played, she called Dani out on it too.

She sees danger for Jon, House Stark and the realm as a whole, Varys sees it, Tyrion's in denial.

Sansa mulled that decision over at least 24 hours, before telling Tyrion, and she's damn worried for Jon, it's in her face.

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Sansa was the opposite of Dany and wanted it in play. 

No, she thought about this news long and hard, along with knowing the real situation wrg to the men and health.

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, andipandi said:

Anyway, they are really rushing and cramming things in, which makes deaths like dragon and missendre seem pointless.

Well they did give us plenty of warnings.

but for refrence Tyrion, Missandei, Grayworm , Vasarys all travelled ~ 1200 miles to get to Dragonstone ( Land and sea ), Dani on Drogon maybe a bit less.

Jon and troops ~1200 miles by land

Used online database for distance. ship traveling  ~ 6 miles a hour ~5 knots.

Horses and land troops somewhere between 20 to 30 miles a day, with breaks for horses food, etc.

And as of the end of show Tyrion states Jon is still 14 days out.

So yeah bullet train but we can fill in the blanks, it's not that instant.

[GrailKing]

23 hours ago, rmontro said:

Do you think Sansa would have had the guts to walk up and talk to Qyburn like Tyrion did?  With all that weaponry trained on her?  I think not.

And before that, she complains that Dany wants to take the soldiers south.  Wasn't she complaining before about how there were too many mouths to feed?  Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Sounds like Sansa just wants to complain.

She had no problem with the hound, or Tyrion, even tried to goad Joffrey, and she was 11-13, so yeah, a 19 -22 yo Sansa wouldn't have a problem with Qyburn, she probably read him better too.

And Sansa was correct on the food, it's not her responsibility to feed Dani's army, that's on Dani, but well out manning Jaime 2-3 to 1, decides to burn the food train instead of taking it away  from battle.

In war each country, each General is responsible to supply their troops with all rations and tools. Sansa's responsibility was The North, WF, Wintertown, not another Generals army.

So yeah she exceeded anything Jon could had hoped for, including tent area's for Dani's men.

[GrailKing]

23 hours ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

Let’s say it does wind up with Jon as king, which totally will not happen, as he’s a goner, but if that is what happens? My god did they do a piss fucking poor job on him! Yes, let’s make the ultimate claimant to the throne a complete fucking idiot. Fans will love that! And it’s intentional! D&D call him slow. What purpose did that serve? 

Well maybe it's the consequences of being resurrected, Beric looses some of his memory each time he dies and is brought back, Jon wanted to more or less flee from fighting.

GRRM said there should be repercussions for coming back from the dead.

[Miles]

Okay, we are in complete bullshit territory now. First of all, those measly spears shouldn't be able to puncture the scales of drags that size.

But let's say the can, it would take forever to reload them. Every ship only had one balista and by the looks of it every one of them fired at the two dragons in the beginning. All Dany had to do was swoop back around and burn the ships to a crisp.

Euron also shouldn't have had any left to fire at the other ships. Don't even get me started on those things being more destructive than canonballs.

Why am I still watching this incompetent fanfic?

[GrailKing]

22 hours ago, MadMouse said:

If this is an attempt at a Mad Queen turn for Dany I'm not buying it all. You can try but she's been completely right about everything since landing in Westeros with the exception of believing in WW. Everytime she's listened to someone else she's suffered a defeat or lost someone dear to her.

Jon Snow proves how utter incompetent he would be as King. There was a reason Ned didn't say anything idiot. I did get the feeling that was the last time he's going to see WF. Oh and fuck him for not even petting Ghost.

Sansa continues to be horribly self centered. Jon trusts her with a secret and she breaks that trust almost immediately. Another thing Dany was right about btw. She's not Littlefinger but Littlebird now the transformation is complete.

Jaime loves Brienne but is a monster and knows it. He's left to save her and kill Cersei.. hopefully.

Like all of the episodes this season it feels super rushed and is very disappointing. After two years this the best they have?

She hasn't been completely right, if she was completely right she had safely captured the food train, use it for her troops and the common folk who are starving under Cersei.

She's shown if pushed she's ready to use her WMD, she been shown since S2, she's not a ruler , she believes all the stories her brother told her, and when Berristan and Tyrion tell her about her father, she tends to ( when suits her ) pupu it aside. she also has no qualms to use her WMD as a tool to cause fright among civilians.

She did it in WF, and Varys sees it, Sansa can read her, Dani's closer to Cersei than many think, she just tends to at least try, and listens to other opinions, better than Cersei.

Cersei's more ruthless at the moment, but it won't take much after what happened to Missandei to push her over that edge.

Sansa isn't self centered any longer that girl died on the dais of KL and traitors bridge.

She's colder, more pragmatic and reads the bad people better than anyone, because she lived with them and saw their methods.

She's not power hungry in the likes of Dany or Cersei, more like Lady Oleana, her priorities are ; Home, Family safety and the North, not power for power's sake.

She thought long and hard before trusting Tyrion with that info, it's a gamble not just for the north but all of Westeros, she sees danger for the land in those dragons and in Dani's demeanor. She's quite worried about Jon going to KL.

So is it noble to keep a vow, that could prevent a better alternative that people can except or let hellfire rain down on the land and kill more people?

As jaime said - " so many vows "

[GrailKing]

23 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Well. That was nauseating.

Under other circumstances, Jon being dumb enough (and I'm one of the few people who hasn't thought he's stupid) to think for one minute that Sansa would keep that whopper of a secret under her cloak would be in my top three most upsetting things, but it's barely in the running after:

--Dany getting the whiplash Norma-Desmond-Crazy-AF edit

--Rhaegel being unceremoniously shot out of the sky by Urine, of all fuckfaces

--Missandei being gratuitously murdered.

Sadistically pulling out all the stops to push Dany over the edge is 100% gross, lazy storytelling. This right here smacks of how two of my most beloved shows, BTVS and Penny Dreadful, went off the rails in their final seasons. Massive bummer.

Well GRRM gave them the plot points; D & D told us all they're taking the bullet train route.

 So use your imagination and 7 years of info and piece the stuff together, if you really need to blame someone call New Mexico, ask for George.

[GrailKing]

@Stagmania

Is that's what you think?  She was never happy about it, but she in truth told the hound these experiences opened my eyes or I still be a naive woman.

 Sansa was always strong; mentally.

Then she made the Hound smile by letting him know she used the dogs to end her antagonist.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GrailKing

[spaceghostess]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well GRRM gave them the plot points; D & D told us all they're taking the bullet train route.

 So use your imagination and 7 years of info and piece the stuff together, if you really need to blame someone call New Mexico, ask for George.

So I shouldn't "blame" D & D for taking the bullet train route because they first announced they were taking the bullet train route? By that logic, you shouldn't blame your significant other for cheating as long as he/she gave you a heads-up before doing it. 

Also, I'm pretty well able to "use [my] imagination and piece the stuff together," when there's enough fabric to actually make something that isn't shitty and full of holes, thanks. 

GRRM wrote what he wrote and probably won't finish the series, but according to him, he knows how he wants it to end. Fine. But whatever information he gave D & D, he gave to them YEARS ago. They had plenty of time to figure out how to do this well and they are responsible for the television show they run, just as GRRM is responsible for the books he writes (or doesn't write). The books are on Martin. The show is on D & D.

Edited May 7, 2019 by spaceghostess

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

So I shouldn't "blame" D&D for taking the bullet train route because they first announced they were taking the bullet train route? By that logic, you shouldn't blame your significant other for cheating as long as he/she gave you a heads-up before doing it. 

Also, I'm pretty well able to "use [my] imagination and piece the stuff together," when there's enough fabric to actually make something that isn't shitty and full of holes, thanks.

Oh you can blame whoever the hell you want, but it ain't just them, and they wanted to end it in 7 HBO tried to force them to ten, and George got a big brain fart.

[MadMouse]

26 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She hasn't been completely right, if she was completely right she had safely captured the food train, use it for her troops and the common folk who are starving under Cersei.

She's shown if pushed she's ready to use her WMD, she been shown since S2, she's not a ruler , she believes all the stories her brother told her, and when Berristan and Tyrion tell her about her father, she tends to ( when suits her ) pupu it aside. she also has no qualms to use her WMD as a tool to cause fright among civilians.

She did it in WF, and Varys sees it, Sansa can read her, Dani's closer to Cersei than many think, she just tends to at least try, and listens to other opinions, better than Cersei.

Cersei's more ruthless at the moment, but it won't take much after what happened to Missandei to push her over that edge.

Sansa isn't self centered any longer that girl died on the dais of KL and traitors bridge.

She's colder, more pragmatic and reads the bad people better than anyone, because she lived with them and saw their methods.

She's not power hungry in the likes of Dany or Cersei, more like Lady Oleana, her priorities are ; Home, Family safety and the North, not power for power's sake.

She thought long and hard before trusting Tyrion with that info, it's a gamble not just for the north but all of Westeros, she sees danger for the land in those dragons and in Dani's demeanor. She's quite worried about Jon going to KL.

So is it noble to keep a vow, that could prevent a better alternative that people can except or let hellfire rain down on the land and kill more people?

As jaime said - " so many vows "

LOL

The food that the Lannisters stole from the Reach you mean? After they had butchered hundreds or thousands of men in Highgarden and wiped the whole Tyrell family out. 

So she's wrong to use her dragons? Is Jon wrong to use a direwolf or a sword? Maybe instead of fighting they can have a dance fight. She would be stupid not to use dragons in battle or to keep people in check. 

Guess who wishes he had a dragon or three to fight the wildlings?? Wonder what he would use dragons for there? Free rides? "We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three."

Sansa isn't power hungry? The woman whose calling for Independence during the apocalypse, Or the woman who didn't inform her brother that the Knights of the Vale might be coming. How many Northerns and Wildlings died for that? Ned Stark was her father but Littlefinger was her daddy and made her his creature.

Whos the better alternative? Jon. The man who was killed by his own men? Or the man who couldn't rally any Northern Houses to his cause? Or the man whose own men actively plotted against him the minute he left Winterfell? He doesn't want it and I know people will bring up that tired trope of the best leader is one who doesn't seek power. Guess who didn't want to be King? Was a charismatic leader and war hero? Robert Baratheon and wasn't his rule a shining example for everyone.

[Oscirus]

57 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She hasn't been completely right, if she was completely right she had safely captured the food train, use it for her troops and the common folk who are starving under Cersei.

She's shown if pushed she's ready to use her WMD, she been shown since S2, she's not a ruler , she believes all the stories her brother told her, and when Berristan and Tyrion tell her about her father, she tends to ( when suits her ) pupu it aside. she also has no qualms to use her WMD as a tool to cause fright among civilians.

She did it in WF, and Varys sees it, Sansa can read her, Dani's closer to Cersei than many think, she just tends to at least try, and listens to other opinions, better than Cersei.

Cersei's more ruthless at the moment, but it won't take much after what happened to Missandei to push her over that edge.

Sansa isn't self centered any longer that girl died on the dais of KL and traitors bridge.

She's colder, more pragmatic and reads the bad people better than anyone, because she lived with them and saw their methods.

She's not power hungry in the likes of Dany or Cersei, more like Lady Oleana, her priorities are ; Home, Family safety and the North, not power for power's sake.

She thought long and hard before trusting Tyrion with that info, it's a gamble not just for the north but all of Westeros, she sees danger for the land in those dragons and in Dani's demeanor. She's quite worried about Jon going to KL.

So is it noble to keep a vow, that could prevent a better alternative that people can except or let hellfire rain down on the land and kill more people?

As jaime said - " so many vows "

Bullshit Sansa's big time self-centered. Only person thinking about others on the Stark side is Jon.  The only reason that she don't like Dany is cuz Dany won't do what no other ruler will do and that's grant North their independence. Its why she continues throwing these hissy fits which serve nobody. 

The only reason she wants Jon to rule is not because she fears dany, it's because she thinks that Jon will grant them independence apparently forgetting that Jon has made more unilateral decisions for the North then Dany has ever even thought about doing.

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Whos the better alternative? Jon. The man who was killed by his own men? Or the man who couldn't rally any Northern Houses to his cause? Or the man whose own men actively plotted against him the minute he left Winterfell? He doesn't want it and I know people will bring up that tired trope of the best leader is one who doesn't seek power. Guess who didn't want to be King? Was a charismatic leader and war hero? Robert Baratheon and wasn't his rule a shining example for everyone.

That’s what’s hilarious. Varys literally brought this up last season to Dany, that Robert Baratheon was a terrible King because he didn’t want to rule 🙄, and he also said in season 1 that Ned Stark would be a terrible King because he is honorable and northern. But now he thinks Jon Snow is perfect?? Because he’s a man basically? Then he says that he’s so weak basically that Dany will overrule him if they marry. Nice...so basically, what Varys wants is a king he can manipulate. And he’s realizes Dany is too Independent and strong.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

When Tyrion says to Varys "Please.  Don't."  What do you think he means?  Don't change sides?  Don't back Jon's claim over Daenerys claim?  Don't decide that Daenerys is bad for the realm? Don't kill Daenerys?  I actually got a vibe of the last one.  Varys is dangerous.

Oh I think don't kill Dany. Varys convinced the Mad King to open the gates to Tywin's army which led to the deaths of Ellaria and her children. Varys wasn't willing to save Ned. I am not sure now why he saved Tyrion or backed Dany if he is so unsure of her. Varys doesn't make sense in this ep other than yeah, I think he could poison Dany..

[jeansheridan]

Does anyone think Daario might make an appearance? If word gets out she has lost two dragons and half her troops might not the man who loved her show up with some extra troops and support? I wouldn't mind seeing him again honestly. He always had her back, even more than Jorah. I just feel like this ep has left her utterly isolated and she needs some backup.

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, Andromeda said:

our reality, it was a Roman weapon. They were such good engineers.

If the Romans had them shouldn't the medieval and Renaissance ships have them? Just wondering. 

It does seem like Dany's dragons are best in night time and sneak attacks. She can fly at night. 

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Oh I think don't kill Dany. Varys convinced the Mad King to open the gates to Tywin's army which led to the deaths of Ellaria and her children. Varys wasn't willing to save Ned. I am not sure now why he saved Tyrion or backed Dany if he is so unsure of her. Varys doesn't make sense in this ep other than yeah, I think he could poison Dany..

Its basically don't turn on Dany cuz Tyrion knows what will happen. He saved tyrion because tyrion as hand was a revelation in season 2, as to why he backed Dany? Who knows. If Im not mistaken, one of the things he was trying to do was get Tyrion to focus on taking her out. He's not a fan of magic, so I guess its cuz D and D needed to move the plot along since there would be no logical reason for it.

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Does anyone think Daario might make an appearance? If word gets out she has lost two dragons and half her troops might not the man who loved her show up with some extra troops and support? I wouldn't mind seeing him again honestly. He always had her back, even more than Jorah. I just feel like this ep has left her utterly isolated and she needs some backup.

I don’t think we’ll see him again, although a tried general sure would be useful.

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Then later, when Tormund is trying to join the clique that had been surrounding Brianne but they all walk away, there is this great moment where Pod -- the only one left -- gives him a big goofy smile as if to say "I'll drink with you" and then Tormund leaves in disgust.  That was a high-school lunch-room drama that played out right there.

I loved that too.  And as gross as it was for Tyrion to ask Brienne if she was a virgin in front of the group like that when they were all fairly relaxed and having a good time and it was one of the few times we've seen her with her defenses down around other people, I also loved his subtle wingman move of distracting Tormund with more wine after Jaime essentially cockblocked him to follow Brienne out.

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Jaime's final scene with Brienne is visually strange.  Jaime is almost unrecognizable due to the angle from which he is shot. I wonder if that is deliberate or just a fluke of the lighting.  I had originally said that Jaime was going back to Kings Landing to kill his sister.  After all, she sent Bronn to kill him.  But after watching that scene a second time, I'm really not sure anymore.  It may well be that he IS addicted to her and is running to her side because she will soon be under attack.  But I want to believe in the redemption of Jaime Lannister.  I want him to be on his way to Kings Landing to kill Cersie because -- after hearing about the death of another dragon and the loss of all those ships -- he realizes that she might win and he can't let that happen.  He killed one mad king.  Now he's off to try and kill an evil queen. 

He does look really different in the scene, at least in part I think because he can barely meet her eyes after we've seen him mostly smiling and seemingly all right with things most of the episode.  Until I'm given evidence otherwise, I'll continue to believe he thinks he's going on what's likely to be a suicide mission to put down the monster he's enabled all these years and had a hand in making because with news that Danerys has just suffered a fairly serious setback with the death of the second dragon and loss of part of her fleet, it's no longer such a given that the combined Stargaryen forces are going to be able to take care of it.  If Cersei wins and continues her reign of terror, none of them including people he loves like Brienne or Tyrion or anyone else will ever be safe.  He and Tyrion are likely to end up on the wrong end of another assassin who can't be bought off with vague promises of Highgarten.  Up until Sansa received the raven-gram of the news, everyone had been acting like victory was a forgone conclusion and he seemed fairly at peace with sitting it out at Winterfell with Brienne.  He thought making a clean break with Cersei, apologizing to Bran, giving Brienne the credit she's long been due, fighting the good fight against the army of the dead, and trying to be better from here on out was enough.