S08.E04: The Last of the Starks

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

How was the plot device named Dany able to ferry her army from Dragonstone to Kings Landing without any intervention from the plot device named Euron and his invisible fleet?

Euron forgot to raise the sails of his ships for a couple weeks.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

yeah but the laws of mereen also allowed slavery, so fuck those guys.

Right!  If I am ever living in a place where slavery and the crucifixion of innocent children are "legal", I will pray that a white haired foreign conqueror will come to change those laws and punish those who enforced them.  

Dany would have allowed the Masters to give up their slaves peacefully.  Instead they decided to send her a message by crucifying 163 innocent children.  She replied to their message.   

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Drogo]

TFW Tyrion spouts "You're a virgin!" at Brienne in the presence of her squire and #MCM:

[Constantinople]

At least Missandei's execution wasn't botched as Ser Rodrik's was when Theon executed him.

That's pretty much the good news of this episode

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

TFW Tyrion spouts "You're a virgin!" at Brienne in the presence of her squire and #MCM:

In Tyrion's defense, he was rather drunk.  If Brienne hadn't been so good at Tyrion's game, her virginity might not have been outed.   

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

At least Missandei's execution wasn't botched as Ser Rodrik's was when Theon executed him.

That's pretty much the good news of this episode

She was also fortunate that Cersei didn't have Ser Gregor give her the Sept Unella treatment, first.  By Cersei's standards, her treatment of Missy was tender mercy.   

[Shimmergloom]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If she wasn't such a vain, obnoxious liar, she would have defended her sister Arya and told the truth about what happened on the Kingsroad.  That would have ended her betrothal to Joffrey and she would have gone safely home to WF. 

If you think that Sansa could have called Joffery a liar in public and everyone could have gone home happily you have been watching a different show.  In that episode Robert openly makes it clear that he knows Joffery was lying when he sarcastically says "You were disarmed by this little girl".  Robert knew why Sansa was claiming she didn't remember, Ned knew why, Cersei knew why.  It didn't matter.  Robert tells Ned they will each punish their own children, which proved he knew the truth.  THEN HE DOES NOT PUNISH JOFFERY AT ALL.

[Drogo]

Tormund is every girl ever eliminated from The Bachelor and I don't think we could love him more. 

Countdown to a horrible death in 3, 2, 1...

[MrsR]

Quote

Jaime is going to kill Cersei. He just found out he had a hit put on him BY CERSEI.  He had a bolt shot right next to his head. He needs to kill Cersei to protect Brienne, so he threw a rock at her just like Arya did to Nymeria. Now he's going to join Arya and the Hound on the suicide squad.

I wish Missandrei had jumped and taken Cersei with her. Tyrion was the WORST person to send to negotiate with Cersei. Should have sent Varys or better yet wait for Davos to arrive. He's been the best at these parlays.

RIP Rhaegal. I wish Ghost had decided to give Jon the finger and left on his own. Blehhh.

I wish Sansa had left with The Hound back at the Battle of Blackwater Bay cause then she would have DIED at the Red Wedding. We've had fratricide, can we have some sororicide?

Edited May 6, 2019 by MrsR

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Shimmergloom said:

If you think that Sansa could have called Joffery a liar in public and everyone could have gone home happily you have been watching a different show.  In that episode Robert openly makes it clear that he knows Joffery was lying when he sarcastically says "You were disarmed by this little girl".  Robert knew why Sansa was claiming she didn't remember, Ned knew why, Cersei knew why.  It didn't matter.  Robert tells Ned they will each punish their own children, which proved he knew the truth.  THEN HE DOES NOT PUNISH JOFFERY AT ALL.

But Joffrey would have flat out refused to marry Sansa if she told the truth and ratted him out.  He already pretty much wanted nothing to do with her, because she saw him embarrassed.  If she went against him, it would have been over.  

[VCRTracking]

[watchTV]

30 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm finding Varys's quest for perfection -- forgetting that perfection is the enemy of the good -- as much a danger to the realm as anything Dany has ever threatened.

And who elected Varys god?

Varys may have ulterior motives but it's hard to argue against him when he is trying to prevent the murder of innocents. That's why Cersei let all those people in. If Dany attacks then Cersei can blame her for the casualties. 

I also understand where Dany is coming from. You are trying to reason with unreasonable Cersei. She doesn't care for her people especially after her  walk of shame. So what do you do to a tyrant who uses her own people as pawns? Just let her be?

If her dragon weren't so vulnerable, she could drop hundreds of messages over KL and tell them Cersei's cruel intentions. Then they could revolt.

[Drogo]

14 hours ago, Grumpymonkey said:

Got gypped on Arya's and Sansa's reaction to Jon, which sucked.

I imagine Sansa's face looked something like this:

[GodsBeloved]

57 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

My mind got hung up on the "strangled my cousin".

I just don't remember that, much less which season it happened.

Nothing to see here. Others answered with more details.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[markx]

13 hours ago, Drogo said:

If my neighbor helped me extinguish the flames on my burning house, should I be grateful? Or should I say he had to do it, else the flames would have eventually reached his house too? 

Because honestly my neighbors would hop into their respective SUVs and say "Fuck your problems."

It would be polite to thank - and it's true that Sansa comes across as being unreasonable - but I'd still see it as fighting against a common cause rather than a great favour. It would also seem odd if my neighbour required me to bend the knee for help, when their house was next in line.

(If anything, Cersei should be thanking all of them for stopping the Night King...)

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, GodsBeloved said:

Jaime strangled his cousin in season 2 when he was Robb's prisoner. They were confined together but I forgot why he killed his cousin.

He was creating a distraction to try to escape, to return to his beloved Cersei. 

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Tormund is every girl ever eliminated from The Bachelor and I don't think we could love him more. 

Countdown to a horrible death in 3, 2, 1...

You mean in the Honeymoon Suite when he is named Season n + 1 Bachelorette?

[GodsBeloved]

29 minutes ago, staphdude said:

Her delusion is that she is the one true saviour of the people and the realm.

When she said it was her destiny, I thought Oh No! Thanos GOT style!

[markx]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

The vast funeral pyre scene was impressive - - but how long would that have taken to construct and who would have done it? Soldiers? 

I know it wouldn't have been as tasteful, but I couldn't help thinking dragons would have done the job much quicker...

[Drogo]

The Hound:  Gonna leave me to die again? 
Arya:  Yeah, probably.
The Hound:

[Uncle JUICE]

Oh boy. Thrones...I'm worried about you. You had two all time great episodes, and I'm not sure how I felt about this one, but the answer is not "great." Granted, i rolled into my hotel around 2am last night for an 8AM training after a flight that eliminated watching it live...so I did the responsible thing and got up at 6AM to watch it, and JFC guys.

First of all, maybe someone's asked already, but did Rhaegal get hit DEAD IN THE CHEST? If so, doesn't that mean that the fleet would have been 100% visible to Dany id she'd been paying attention? Also what the fuck. Varys has to be ratting her out, but if he's loyal to the realm and he doesn't think Cersei's better than Dany, he's taking an awful long road to get back to status quo: Cersei on the iron throne. Therefore, I don't think Varys can be spying AND have that make sense with his character.

Is there some rule against flying the dragons AT NIGHT to go find that fleet? Also, my initial plan sure looks good now, because flying the dragons to sit on top of the red keep when you first land in Westeros literally solves all the problems. I know, dramatic tension, blah blah, but for real. This show makes me so fucking mad. I'm not even sure I buy Jaime wanting to have sex with Brienne. 

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, watchTV said:

If she really wanted to undermine Jon she wouldn't have told him they didn't have enough people to fight Ramsay. Jon went anyway. Let him do enough damage against Ramsay's men and let him get slaughtered when he was surrounded. Then the cavalry of house Arryn could finish off Ramsay. Because that is what a hybrid Cersei/Baelish selfish manipulator would do. Just like Cersei waited for them to take out the NK and then attack.

LOL  I'm sorry.  I don't think Jon needed Sansa to tell him that.  And she is a disloyal, traitorous bitch. She damn well almost did let Jon and the entire force who fought for WF be slaughtered.  To quote someone else, she gets no points from me for doing what she should have done in the first place.

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Oh boy. Thrones...I'm worried about you. You had two all time great episodes, and I'm not sure how I felt about this one, but the answer is not "great." Granted, i rolled into my hotel around 2am last night for an 8AM training after a flight that eliminated watching it live...so I did the responsible thing and got up at 6AM to watch it, and JFC guys.

First of all, maybe someone's asked already, but did Rhaegal get hit DEAD IN THE CHEST? If so, doesn't that mean that the fleet would have been 100% visible to Dany id she'd been paying attention? Also what the fuck. Varys has to be ratting her out, but if he's loyal to the realm and he doesn't think Cersei's better than Dany, he's taking an awful long road to get back to status quo: Cersei on the iron throne. Therefore, I don't think Varys can be spying AND have that make sense with his character.

Is there some rule against flying the dragons AT NIGHT to go find that fleet? Also, my initial plan sure looks good now, because flying the dragons to sit on top of the red keep when you first land in Westeros literally solves all the problems. I know, dramatic tension, blah blah, but for real. This show makes me so fucking mad. I'm not even sure I buy Jaime wanting to have sex with Brienne. 

If ya' wanna stoke that anger, watch the Inside the episode piece and get the writer's explanation for the success of Euron's ambush of the dragons. No, I'm not going to spoil it, and no peeking earlier in this thread. Go get it from the horse's ass mouth. Or something. I dare ya'.....

[GodsBeloved]

34 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But Joffrey would have flat out refused to marry Sansa if she told the truth and ratted him out.  He already pretty much wanted nothing to do with her, because she saw him embarrassed.  If she went against him, it would have been over.  

In the episode right after Sansa "sided with Joffery" instead of telling the truth, Joffrey said to Cersei , Do I have to marry her and Cersei  said Yes.

Joffrey clearly didn't want to marry Sansa yet Cersei said he would so him flat out refusing to marry Sansa, at that point at least, wouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans.

Edited May 6, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Notwisconsin]

24 minutes ago, watchTV said:

And who elected Varys god?

I'm sorry, but I cannot answer that as this is the "no book talk " section. again, my apologies. 

[Constantinople]

Quote

Tyrion: He doesn't want the throne. That's why he bent the knee.

Varys: Have you considered the best ruler might be someone who doesn't want to rule?

Varys did, and he rejected the idea

Quote

Varys: I had a choice, Your Grace--serve Robert Baratheon or face the headman's axe.

Daenerys: But you didn't serve him long. You turned against him.

Varys: Robert was an improvement on your father, to be sure. There have been few rulers in history as cruel as the Mad King. Robert was neither mad nor cruel. He simply had no interest in being king

Stormborn, Season 7 Episode 2

And Tyrion was present when Varys explained why he turned against Robert Baratheon

What's worse is that in this episode Varys references part of that same scene when he tells Daenerys, "Your Grace. I promised you I would look you in the eye and speak directly if I ever thought you were making a mistake."

WTF show? Continuity much?

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, MadameKillerB said:

why is the title The Last of the Starks? 

I don't believe there will be anymore Starks.  Bran and Arya won't be having children.  Jon is not a Stark, and I am not sure he can after being killed.  I would be surprised if Sansa can have children after what Ramsey did to her.

I one of the viewers who believes that there has been enough story line to worry about Dany going mad (and I am not thinking of the Tarleys).  

But I felt so bad for Dany.  When she was outside King's Landing with what was left of the Unsullied? (I hope there are more). it reminded me when she was outside Qarth demanding to be let in. 

She lost everything.  Her armies were decimated.  She only has one dragon.   She lost her best friend, Missendei.   And the North is treating her like shit.

And she got so much crap from Sansa.  Sansa was right - the troops needed to rest, but she should have thanked her at the very least.  Dany should never had gone on her own to Dragonstone. 

Sansa is her mother's daughter.  Catelyn's move to kidnap Tyrion was a disastrous move that started the war.  I know Baelish laid the seeds - but Catelyn took the bait.  Jaime then attacked Ned....

So when Sansa told Jaime that she was so sorry she wouldn't get the chance to see Cersei executed - that motivated Jaime to leave Winterfell and help his sister.  I know Sansa didn't want Jaime at Winterfell, but Dany hasn't won the war yet.  Sansa's comment may make the difference in the outcome.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, GodsBeloved said:

In the episode right after Sansa "sided with Joffery" instead of telling the truth, Joffrey said to Cersei , Do I have to marry her and Cersei  said Yes.

Joffrey clearly didn't want to marry Sansa yet Cersei said he would so him flat out refusing to marry Sansa wouldn't have been worth a hill of beans.

If she had gone against him, told the truth and called him a liar that would have been a whole different ballgame. 

"Do I have to marry her?" and "There is no way in Seven Hells I am marrying that little cunt!" are not the same thing.   

[iMonrey]

I can't tell you how depressed this episode made me. Yes, I am one of those crazy animal lovers who cares more about animals than people. Yes, I know the dragons are not real. But clearly the show expects me to be emotionally invested in something and damn it, I could give two shits about Missandei dying but watching Rhaegal get harpooned to death was horrific. I was shocked, I was upset, and I was heartbroken. So sue me.

And that was after the cold shoulder Jon gave to his longest and most loyal companion Ghost. Look, by now we all know the show doesn't like rendering the Direwolves, and this was a rather blatant way of making their jobs easier by eliminating him. We should have at least gotten a decent scene of Jon saying goodbye. The hand-off felt lazy and cheap.

And I know a lot of fans have been shipping Brienne and Jamie for years but to me their hook-up felt very fan servicey. 

I don't know why I keep watching a show that constantly makes me angry and upset. I guess I'm just a sucker. But I'm so tired of watching the villains get the win.

[tv-talk]

1 minute ago, Macbeth said:

Jon is not a Stark

Jon is most definitely a Stark, but yeah I dont see him having any kids after Dany gets him killed somehow.

[GodsBeloved]

24 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The Hound:  Gonna leave me to die again? 
Arya:  Yeah, probably.
The Hound:

He raised Arya right 😂

[MrWhyt]

41 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But Joffrey would have flat out refused to marry Sansa if she told the truth and ratted him out.  He already pretty much wanted nothing to do with her, because she saw him embarrassed.  If she went against him, it would have been over.  

Joffery would have obeyed his father, The King. The joining of the two houses was his decision not Joffery's or Sansa's.

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, watchTV said:

Sansa want to feel safe from the monster who defiled her and kidnap her little brother. Is that hard to understand? But Sansa told Jon they didn't have enough men and wanted to get more but Jon was adamant they go right away.  So Jon did. This is Jon's strength and weakness. He wants to do the right thing despite the circumstances. It is what got him killed.

I'm curious. When was Sansa going to tell Jon about the additional men?  She didn't tell Jon anything that he didn't know, but instead of providing a solution, she made an obvious statement then sat there with a stupid, "deer in headlights" look on her face. She had every opportunity to step up and do the right thing.  But she didn't.  And there was no indication when she might decide to.  I WILL NEVER EVER FORGIVE SANSA FOR BOTB.  There are no amount of excuses that ever will make me like her after that.

Edited May 6, 2019 by taurusrose
grammar grammar grammar

[Bannon]

Oh, in the Tsunami of Stupidity that was Euron's ambush scene, it's easy to forget some of the elements of idiocy that helped get us there. Like Jon (due to concern that a 10,000 pound dragon will feel the effect of a 160 pound man on his back) and Davos, who knows the coves, bays, and shoreline of Westeros better than anyone, traveling south on horse back. Hee, hee, hee, hee....like I said when I read a spoiler that revealed this, why not just have Meera Reed drag Jon south on a tarp?

[GodsBeloved]

8 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I'm curious. When was Sansa going to tell Jon about the additional men?  

Never because the audience needed to believe all was lost and be SURPRISED!! when The Vale rode in.

[Lady Iris]

I was and still am hideously annoyed by that action. In fact, any sympathy I've had for Sansa has just about completely evaporated.

[BitterApple]

28 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

And I know a lot of fans have been shipping Brienne and Jamie for years but to me their hook-up felt very fan servicey. 

Jaime and Brienne are great as buddies, but somehow them having sex felt off. I know it's incredibly strange to say that considering we've had multiple scenes of Jaime banging his sister, but yeah. It would be akin to Arya hooking up with the Hound. Everyone's adults and all, but it would be squicky.

[Andromeda]

14 hours ago, GraceK said:

She doesn’t trust SANSA. That’s the issue. Sansa has been a bitch to her from the beginning, and based in this episode? Danys right. Dany asked Jon to hide his parentage because she knows that SANSA will try to use it to foster discord and conflict. She knows that SANSA will use this information to try to put Jon on the throne against his will and foment rebellion and conflict between them. And she was right. After all Dany has done for the realm, Sansa still hates her. She even knows it’s irrational, she just hates her. She doesn’t want to help, she doesn’t want to be allies, and she doesn’t want Jon to honor his promise to her. She looks  at her  dragons and says “ why her” petulantly. When Dany makes Gendry a lord, Sansa is pissed. She’s even mad that Arya respects the fact that Jon needed her dragons and armies. Sansa just hates her, and it’s irrational, and as soon as she finds out about Jon, she tells Tyrion, and According to the writers, she knows the consequences. She knows it’s gonna get around. She has no respect for Jon’s feelings, or what he wants or anything. Honestly? It’s like she doesn’t love him at all, because if she did, she wouldn’t treat him like he doesn’t matter. And Dany KNOWS all this. She sees right through Sansa. She tells Jon that Sansa is not the innocent little sister he thinks she is. Everyone calls Sansa out  on her bullshit this episode and STILL Dany is the bad guy?

Well said. If I could quote you a thousand times, I would. 

[FormerMod-a1]

How does Cersei not have the title of the "mad queen"? Seriously.  They all know she's vile and hateful and would kill countless innocents (as has done so).  She'll never make another choice. She's paranoid, too.  Why people are not fleeing her is beyond understanding, to me.  

I never saw a Jaime/Brienne romance.  I saw Brienne having a crush and Jaime coming around to respecting her, and that was it.  And then this happened.  Ugh.  (I didn't want  Brienne with Tormund, either, fyi).  I'm glad he told her how vile he'd been in the past.  That said I agree he didn't leave her to be with Cersei, but to help take her down.

I have really felt for Dany while she's been in the north.  Not only for the unwarm welcome and xenophobia, but I think it really highlighted what she didn't have in terms of family and home.  She has never known family and home like the Starks or other families in the North.  She has never had that kind of comraderie and warmth and feeling of safety and relaxation of being "home" or with family.  Even at the celebration scene - there were several circles of friends/family talking and she was all alone. And now, the few people she has felt that comfortable with, and felt safe in relying on, have died defending the North (Jorah) and by Cersei (Missandi).  AND she lost another "child", her dragon.  Even if/when she acts out and does something stupid and/or extreme, I don't blame her one bit, and I wouldn't call her "mad" for it.   

Lastly, I hate that Cersei is getting more wins than the fricking Night King and army of the dead.  Really, show?  Another dragon had to die, rather than just be injured?  More people, main characters, are going to die at her hand (pure spec, based on dragon and Missandi and just the odds) than against the AOTD? 

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Never because the audience needed to believe all was lost and be SURPRISED!! when The Vale rode in.

Yep.

I don't mind Sansa telling Tyrion. She never wanted Dany to get the Iron Throne. She may not get along with Jon but she prefers him as king, whether he wants the job or not. Arya does too but she's going to go along with Jon's wishes.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What bothered me about Jaime/Brienne wasn't that they had sex (I'm all for Brienne getting some!) but the way that it happened. Jaime barges into her room and starts telling her she has to drink and then he proceeds to start taking off his various layers. Brienne sees he's having trouble with his shirt so she goes to help him and his next move is to try to take her shirt off. Like seriously, dude? THAT'S your move? Storm in, try to get her drunk, fling your clothes around the room, and expect sex? Maybe it's a good thing he was fucking his sister all this time because based on this scene, he has no game. I think Brienne deserves better than that.

Say what you will about Tormund, but I feel like he would have made more of an effort than that. I mean, it might have been super weird, but there would have been some conscious effort to woo her in his own wildling way.

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

How does Cersei not have the title of the "mad queen"? Seriously.  They all know she's vile and hateful and would kill countless innocents (as has done so).  She'll never make another choice. She's paranoid, too.  Why people are not fleeing her is beyond understanding, to me.  

I never saw a Jaime/Brienne romance.  I saw Brienne having a crush and Jaime coming around to respecting her, and that was it.  And then this happened.  Ugh.  (I didn't want  Brienne with Tormund, either, fyi).  I'm glad he told her how vile he'd been in the past.  That said I agree he didn't leave her to be with Cersei, but to help take her down.

I have really felt for Dany while she's been in the north.  Not only for the unwarm welcome and xenophobia, but I think it really highlighted what she didn't have in terms of family and home.  She has never known family and home like the Starks or other families in the North.  She has never had that kind of comraderie and warmth and feeling of safety and relaxation of being "home" or with family.  Even at the celebration scene - there were several circles of friends/family talking and she was all alone. And now, the few people she has felt that comfortable with, and felt safe in relying on, have died defending the North (Jorah) and by Cersei (Missandi).  AND she lost another "child", her dragon.  Even if/when she acts out and does something stupid and/or extreme, I don't blame her one bit, and I wouldn't call her "mad" for it.   

Lastly, I hate that Cersei is getting more wins than the fricking Night King and army of the dead.  Really, show?  Another dragon had to die, rather than just be injured?  More people, main characters, are going to die at her hand (pure spec, based on dragon and Missandi and just the odds) than against the AOTD? 

I think Cersei as Mad Queen is old news.  People are used to it.  I guess in KL they would rather have the Mad Queen they know over the Mad Queen they don't know?  Plus, I think she has been engaging in some good PR and propaganda lately.

It has been a consistent theme in the show that Cersei gets underestimated and scores big wins over her enemies.  She did it to Ned, then Margeary, then, after that backfired on her, she did it to the High Sparrow and Septa Unella.  Later she got Ellaria Sand (her one just vengeance) and Olena, though Euron and Jaime were mainly responsible for those.  

She is a genuine super villain.  If you make any mistakes with her, or hesitate, you will likely end up dead.   

The manner in which it happened (Dany's team being so careless) was bad writing, but I think Cersei getting another big win was true to the story.   

Edited May 6, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[FormerMod-a1]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The manner in which it happened (Dany's team being so careless) was bad writing, but I think Cersei getting another big win was true to the story.   

Yes, but she still shouldn't get them so easily, imo.  Especially easier than the NK and AOTD.  Somehow she gets to take out more main characters than anyone.  I also was not underestimating her.  I just think it's BS with just 2 episodes left.  And yes, it is due to so much stupidity.  All these people have sent scouts before, but not this trip.  And apparently flying high in the sky shields one from seeing a fleet of ships just beyond a mountain/island, and so on.

[Wouldofshouldof]

15 hours ago, dbell1 said:

Missandre was a dead woman from the time they fished her out of the water. Way to go out like a loyal badass.

I SOOO wanted her to grab Cersei and dive off the parapet.

[Andromeda]

13 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

How does Cersei not have the title of the "mad queen"? Seriously.  They all know she's vile and hateful and would kill countless innocents (as has done so).  She'll never make another choice. She's paranoid, too.  Why people are not fleeing her is beyond understanding, to me.  

I will never understand this. Cersie blew up the sept! It wasn't just a building, it was one of the biggest landmarks in King's Landing. It would be like blowing up Notre Dame ( sadz). And the people of KL just go about their business, as the scene last season showed, when Davos got Gendry to come along. I saw no sign that the populace were fearful, but she's crazy! Where are the people who should be fomenting rebellion? Where are the underground forces who would normally be aiming to unseat her? Which is why I really have no sympathy for them at this point, since they can't even stand up for themselves...

[Sakura12]

If Jon doesn't want to be King, his best option was to not tell anyone his true parentage. By telling them, he's making himself King whether he wants it or not. He's another option, has as a better claim and is not a foreigner. 

[Andromeda]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

"I'd have to ask the commanders" could be seen as a "never" answer, but it's also just the most practical answer. It only means never if there's an assumption the commanders are going to lie or say whatever Sansa wants, and there's no reason to think that was true. As Sansa pointed out, she was talking about Dany's own soldiers too. Jon picking up on Dany's more paranoid reading was overruling not just "never" but rest for the soldiers.

If she was going to raise it as a concern, why didn't she do her homework and ask them before the meeting? It comes off just like the food issue, as Sansa thinking up something to spar with Dany over. Food and soldier health are both important issues, but Sansa is just using them to be contrary, which is a shame.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"Slavery good...justice bad." - Every Dany hater   

I’m sure there’s an unsolved murder in your area. How about we sentence you to death for it because you live in the area and might have done it. That’s Dany’s version of “justice.”

It’s good for keeping a conquered population cowed (which is why the Romans did it... and why Dany did it AGAIN after Selmy’s death, again not caring about guilt or innocence, just the naked display of power to keep them cowed), but it’s not justice.

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Biologically, I believe she shares more DNA with Jon, than a typical aunt, because of Targaryen inbreeding.   But, socially, she was a stranger to him, not family, and I think growing up as relatives is what brings most of the ickiness.

Jon shares less DNA with Sansa and Arya but marrying them would seem way more wrong because they grew up as siblings.  

Someone actually ran the numbers based on the Targaryen family tree and Jon and Dany’s coefficient of inbreeding is around the level of full siblings. Dany herself is more inbred than the last of the Hapsberg monarchs.

[Side-bar] There doesn’t need to be a curse to explain Dany’s lack of children... her DNA is a finely puréed blend of Swiss cheese and confetti. Rhaegar only managed Jon because the odds of one viable sperm out of tens to hundreds of millions (depending on how enthusiastic Rhaegar and Lyanna were) is actually within the bounds of probability. One viable egg out of a dozen-ish a year with that level of inbreeding over Dany’s entire fertile lifetime would be worse odds than buying a single powerball ticket and winning it all. [/side-bar]

By contrast Jon and Sansa/Arya are mutually outbred (both Starks married different families) cross-cousins (i.e. when the parents are of opposite sexes which is apparently better genetically than non-cross cousins; ex. Sansa/Arya and Robin of the Vale). Their coefficient of inbreeding is about as likely to produce birth defects as a woman having her first pregnancy in her 30’s would be.

If they were to go there, I think they’d go with a political over a love match (i.e. Jon’s status with the North is so shaky he needs the true Lady of Winterfell to shore it up and Sansa has the day-to-day management skills Jon lacks) and re-reference that Jon brooded in the corner instead of playing with the Starks as a child and wasn’t allowed to eat at the family table because of Catlyn (i.e. he wasn’t any closer to Sansa than Theon was) to step down any creepiness.

IF they were to go there.

As to ruling from King’s Landing... If Dany’s going nuclear on it there’s no particular reason to rebuild the capital there (it might even be seen as a bad omen like ruling Harrenhal if enough people die there). It’s only important because Aegon I made it his capitol. I think the BluRay documentaries said it was a nameless fishing village at best before then.

The only reason the Iron Throne is important is the trappings of power centered there. If you’re king by acclaim, then your throne is wherever you happen to be sitting; even if it’s a stump in a clearing.

If Dany burns out KL, gets removed and Jon ends up King by acclaim, there’s no reason to believe he wouldn’t choose to rule from Winterfell or a wandering court that spends time in the capitols of each of the Seven Kingdoms (which was actually pretty common for kings in the Medieval period).

*  *  *  *

All that said, I think the tipping point being set up in this episode isn’t about Jon, but Tyrion.

Dany has three advisors left.

Greyworm is going to be all-in on the Dracarys-ing up as much of King’s Landing as needed to wipe Cersei off the map (he’s done with Westeros; if he lives, he’s going to Naath to protect it as he promised Missandie he would).

Varys will probably get himself killed trying to keep Dany from lighting up King’s Landing even if that means someone like Cersei on the Throne (I suspect his ultimate line of thinking is that Jon doesn’t need the physical Throne to take the Seven Kingdoms from Cersei since, as stated above, a true king’s throne is wherever he’s sitting... King’s Landing without the Seven Kingdoms to support it won’t be able to stand for long).

And Tyrion is in the middle trying desperately to find a solution that doesn’t require him to choose between Dany on the Throne and all the innocents in King’s Landing. That’s where the key conflict is gonna be in this.

My hunch is he’ll flip, but only once Jaime ends up as BBQ (and probably after killing Cersie to boot so his suicide run ends up being all for nothing... the city still burns anyway).

Edited May 6, 2019 by Chris24601
Weird formatting

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

Yes, but she still shouldn't get them so easily, imo.  Especially easier than the NK and AOTD.  Somehow she gets to take out more main characters than anyone.  I also was not underestimating her.  I just think it's BS with just 2 episodes left.  And yes, it is due to so much stupidity.  All these people have sent scouts before, but not this trip.  And apparently flying high in the sky shields one from seeing a fleet of ships just beyond a mountain/island, and so on.

I agree that they would have sent scouts.  That is why I thought it was lazy, bad writing.  But, Cersei winning one more round with a surprise tactic made sense to me.    It should have been something more clever and unexpected though. 

We've already seen the Giant Crossbow, so Dany's team should have been expecting those.  
We have also already seen Euron surprise Dany's fleet.    

The twist should have made Cersei seem diabolically brilliant, not make Dany and her whole team look like idiots.   

[Andromeda]

14 hours ago, Leroux said:

As long as she gets the throne she doesn't seem to care about the casualties along the way and that is what makes her dangerous. Sansa IMO has seen this and has every right to give her the side eye. She has seen directly in Cersei what a woman mad for power is willing to do. I do not blame Sansa for thinking that Jon would be a better king, 

When Dany saw what was happening to her Dothraki, she jumped on her dragon to defend everyone, even though it went against the battle plan. That's hardly someone who doesn't seem to care about the casualties along the way.

[GodsBeloved]

16 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Say what you will about Tormund, but I feel like he would have made more of an effort than that. I mean, it might have been super weird, but there would have been some conscious effort to woo her in his own wildling way.

Oh gawd!! Remember this little talk:

Edited May 6, 2019 by GodsBeloved