S14.E20: Moriah

[Bergamot]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

One more thing I actually liked: Dean's unshakable self-assurance and will on full display. It kind of feels like an inevitable escalation now, with his consistent telling of powerful beings to go screw themselves all building up to standing his ground in front of God himself.

It was pretty interesting that Chuck was so focused on Dean and the role he "had" to play. He was the lynchpin of Chuck's intended narrative. And as the representation of free will, Dean's refusal to play along also broke the entire story apart. I guess I should be grateful that Dabb gives us even this much in subtext. Still doesn't come close to making up for Michael!Dean, though.

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I liked that you could see Dean's spidey sense kick in at that moment. IMO, something felt "wrong" to him about the entire scenario at that very moment and then Chuck spoke up and twirled his mustache and sealed the wrongness of it all for him. 

I agree. I think that Dean was pretty awesome there. I was afraid before I saw the episode that the climax was going to be about "Dean learning a lesson" or "Dean experiencing personal growth" in regard to Jack. Fortunately it wasn't like that at all.

For a moment I honestly didn't know which way it was going to go. But Dean has very good instincts and he made the right choice, and then had the guts to stand his ground in the face of God himself.

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

At least Dean was written in character.  This is what Dean would've done.  He's such a stubborn bastard.  I love him.

Me too!  And as for Chuck being totally focused on Dean's role in the story, well, at least he and I have that one thing in common!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

You can hear it spoken here, at the beginning of this audio of Genesis Chapter 22.

(I looked it up because I was curious about the story of Abraham and Isaac that was referred to in the show, but after listening I decided that the Genesis story has very few points of comparison with what actually happened in the episode, and provided no illumination of it. Dabb obviously just thought it would be cool to include the reference.)

So, like Mariah then. 🙂 Thank you!

[ILoveReading]

IMO, there is a difference between agreeing to sacrificing yourself and wanting to die/kill yourself.   With Dean, I didn't see any indications he was suicidal or wanting to die.  He was willing to get into that coffin or take a bullet for the greater good.  Sort of like a solider on a combat mission.  

There is a song by Toby Keith called American Solider that I see as Dean's theme song.  There is a line in it that for me describes Dean. 

"I don't want to do die for you, but it dying's asked of me, I'll bear that cross with honor because freedom don't come free."

I don't like the show framing it as Dean leaving Sam.  That isn't want he's doing.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, there is a difference between agreeing to sacrificing yourself and wanting to die/kill yourself.   With Dean, I didn't see any indications he was suicidal or wanting to die.  He was willing to get into that coffin or take a bullet for the greater good.  Sort of like a solider on a combat mission.  

There is a song by Toby Keith called American Solider that I see as Dean's theme song.  There is a line in it that for me describes Dean. 

"I don't want to do die for you, but it dying's asked of me, I'll bear that cross with honor because freedom don't come free."

I don't like the show framing it as Dean leaving Sam.  That isn't want he's doing.

I agree. And if Sam was just saying let's find another way for Dean, because Dean doesn't deserve to die, I would be applauding it. But it's always "I" and "me' - how much Sam would suffer if Dean dies, or was trapped forever with an angry archangel. And how foolish/suicidal/faithless Dean is for considering it, not how brave and honorable he is.  That's what I have a problem with.

[MysteryGuest]

I finally watched this, but I'm not sure I should have.  What the hell??  I think this was the worst season finale ever.  They should have moved on from the Heaven/Hell storylines years ago.  Can we please have a re-set and pretend the last few seasons didn't happen.  Let's just pick up after they've dispensed with the Leviathans, and go from there.  There's nothing about this ending that screams "come back next season to see how it ends".  Sam, Dean and Cas deserve better than this.

[Commando Cody]

If Jack is the new God, does Chuck become the new devil?

[Commando Cody]

Now that I have a moment to finish my other thought, about Jack and Chuck, do you think this is the reason the angels were told that Nephilim were abominations? Because Chuck was afraid they would be more powerful than he is?

[Casseiopeia]

SPN fans are the best...

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

After all, when Sam wanted to sacrifice himself in Swan Song *to save the world*, Dean supported him without whimpering, "but what about MEEEEE?" 

But Sam did let Dean go to sacrifice himself in the season 11 finale, so apparently it depends on what the writer wants at the time as to which Sam we'll get.

[MysteryGuest]

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Sam did let Dean go to sacrifice himself in the season 11 finale, so apparently it depends on what the writer wants at the time as to which Sam we'll get.

The whole self-sacrifice schtick has gotten way old, anyway.  How many times has Dean tried to sacrifice himself just this season alone?  Seriously, enough already.  It used to be moving, but you can't do the same thing multiple times each season for 14 years and still have any impact.  The whole thing is just silly at this point.  

[SueB]

Supernatural: Go Big or Go Home

I haven't read the thread yet, just saw the episode for the first time.  EPIC is truly the word for this episode.  Quick thoughts:

The humor was SO GOOD!
--"Celine Dion"
-- You watch Jeopardy EVERY night
-- Stapler Lady FTW

The drama was INTENSE:
- My heart broke when Cas left the bunker
- Sam confronting Chuck in the library
- The LOOK on Dean's face as he saw Chuck was the villain

And the plot is MIGHTY ambitious.   Not sure about the viability of a Thanos-class finger snapping God as your enemy but I'm up for the ride.

Edited April 27, 2019 by SueB

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

By the point Sam picked up the gun, he knew Chuck had lied to him about it, That he'd just said that to make Dean kill Jack, which of course due to Dean being who is is, wasn't going to be anyone's puppet.

They'd all just learned that Chuck had manipulated their entire lives for his own amusement. I agree with whoever said Sam intentionally missed. That the gun was supposed to exact the same damage to the person who fired it as the one he fired at, means Sam didn't go for the kill shot. It also means that Chuck was even lying about that, as the gun had no effect on him whatsoever.

I think Chuck WAS shot in the shoulder, though-the same as Sam.

And IIRC, Chuck said that the intention was everything, too-which is why he wanted Dean to use the gun on Jack-because he knew that Jack killing Mary had made Dean murderous also; and that was what made it entertaining to Chuck-all the passionate feelings. 

I think that Sam shooting at Chuck was simply just an angry response but his intention was not to kill-or it would have happened, thus ending the world through the law of balance, which Sam would have likely even subconsciously known and remembered. But the impudence of the act still pissed Chuck off enough to want to end the world right then and there.  

Now I'm sure that won't happen, but we'll see how they miraculously solve that little problem in the premiere.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if all we get is the aftermath as in Aeryn's humorous example in another thread, only yes, it will be the real thing coming from this bunch.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[Myrelle]

30 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

And I still have to think Chuck anticipated this, as he had a plan on tap immediately with his little zombie apocalypse. 

Literally, he brought about the demise of not just the Winchesters, but all of mankind. 

Perhaps Dean killing Jack would have also started the apocalypse. I don't know. but Chuck came locked and ready.

I think the zombie apocalypse was an off the cuff response to Sam shooting him because nothing that he expected actually happened in all or any of this.

Chuck is a completely capricious God, IMO, whose motivations mostly revolve around what is most entertaining to him at the moment, with very little care for those worlds that he created that offer him very little in that regard.

It's what Michael wanted to confront him about, but alas Dabb decided that in his opinion showing us that via the Michael storyline wouldn't be as entertaining to the masses as the mess that he gave us here was, instead. 

Needless to say, I disagree with that decision of his with every fiber of my being, but like Chuck, I'm sure that that's of very little concern or consequence to Dabb and I know that, but it DOES help me to appreciate a board like the one we have here more than ever before now.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[tessathereaper]

7 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

I truly believe that if Sam thought this was the ONLY way, that he would have gone along with it. But again, there was something about the whole gun hurting the shooter scenario that was a red flag. 

I think that in the past, as with the Amara thing, they had explored many more options. There was time, and there really was no other way. 

Here, it was just all so ridiculous.

I absolutely did not see the Dean moment that way AT ALL. 

I think it was fantastic that Dean, who's always too willing to kill himself, took a moment to step back and realize there could be another way out of this. The way I took it was that his cries of "We kill monsters! That's what we do!" black and white of it all, is no longer who he is.

That, if anything, his many, MANY years of being a hunter has taught him it's not that simple. In this one brilliant moment, Dean let us know how powerful he really is, and that maybe there was another way. 

But I wasn't talking about the gun, I was talking about the original plan with the box, this whole bit with the gun and killing Jack wouldn't even have come up IF Sam had just gone along with Dean's plan to get in the box.  Jack wouldn't be soulless(or well hell if something else happened and he was Dean certainly wouldn't be part of the decision making about it), there would be no argument about it because Sam and Cas would be woobyfing and coddling Jack and making up excuses for all his "accidental" murders because they WUV him so much.

So there wasn't ANOTHER way out of the Michael thing, not a way that was BETTER than Dean's plan.  There was only "another way" this time because of crappy cop out storytelling that has basically made the last 14 seasons worthless in one fell swoop.  None of this character growth, the last few seasons including this episode has been turning every character into simplistic 2 d caricatures of once complex characters, even Chuck.  I never really liked him, clearly he was always an asshole but this has just turned him into a mustache twirling villain whereas he used to have some complexity. 

Sorry IMO the premise is ridiculous and this why, because they do this and now they can say any decision that was made didn't matter because it was just Chuck playing them, yada yada yada and none of it actually mattered.   

The fact is there is NOT always another way and frankly given the givens once again Dean was NOT doing this recklessly, Jack should have had to be taken out given what they knew, he was danger to the whole world - until he was not due to the literal deus ex machina.  It's absolutely disrespectful to treat Dean's willingness to make the hard choices that have to be made and which he's never done recklessly IMO into some sort of death wish or closed mindedness if only he tried harder wouldn't have to happen.

Quote

But it's always "I" and "me' - how much Sam would suffer if Dean dies, or was trapped forever with an angry archangel. And how foolish/suicidal/faithless Dean is for considering it, not how brave and honorable he is.  That's what I have a problem with.

Yahtzee.  It's always that this is something bad, it's never framed as something good or brave.  And Sam always makes freaking EVERYTHING about himself in these situations, he's like an opera singer "me,me,me,me", which doesn't him any favors for anyone who actually paying attention.

Edited April 27, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Lastcall]

7 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

But I wasn't talking about the gun, I was talking about the original plan with the box, this whole bit with the gun and killing Jack wouldn't even have come up IF Sam had just gone along with Dean's plan to get in the box.  Jack wouldn't be soulless(or well hell if something else happened and he was Dean certainly wouldn't be part of the decision making about it), there would be no argument about it because Sam and Cas would be woobyfing and coddling Jack and making up excuses for all his "accidental" murders because they WUV him so much.

So there wasn't ANOTHER way out of the Michael thing, not a way that was BETTER than Dean's plan.  There was only "another way" this time because of crappy cop out storytelling that has basically made the last 14 seasons worthless in one fell swoop.  None of this character growth, the last few seasons including this episode has been turning every character into simplistic 2 d caricatures of once complex characters, even Chuck.  I never really liked him, clearly he was always an asshole but this has just turned him into a mustache twirling villain whereas he used to have some complexity. 

Sorry IMO the premise is ridiculous and this why, because they do this and now they can say any decision that was made didn't matter because it was just Chuck playing them, yada yada yada and none of it actually mattered.   

The fact is there is NOT always another way and frankly given the givens once again Dean was NOT doing this recklessly, Jack should have had to be taken out, he was danger to the whole world - until he was not due to the literal deus ex machina.  It's absolutely disrespectful to treat Dean's willingness to make the hard choices that have to be made and which he's never done recklessly IMO into some sort of death wish or closed mindedness if only he tried harder wouldn't have to happen.

I would say it’s an ongoing theme that Sam is Deans only true weakness but that is giving the writers too much credit. He was the only one that could keep Dean from enacting his plan. If you really twist the two death book fates, the worst case scenario was true. Michael did escape Deans mind cage and the world did burn only three or four pages were missing in between.

[Lastcall]

14 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

It's like what Dean came to the realization of in this episode. He stopped seeing all "monsters" as bad and something that needs to be killed. He realized that seeing things in black and white, good and bad, didn't serve him.

And okay, fine. they wouldn't have been in this mess if A, B, C, or D happened, but they did, so now they're faced with this ridiculous scenario that they don't have a second to think about, because if they did, they would have realized how nonsensical it was. Which is what Chuck was counting on. Given like five minutes, and all of them putting their heads together, someone would have come to the conclusion that the gun was a load of crap.

“In this episode” I think Dean realized that eight years ago when he became besties with a vampire.

As for not dredging what led to this, that is all fine but it doesn’t excuse what Sam did. Chuck was walking away, his ending was ruined and he was leaving in a huff. Sam chose to shoot him whether he meant to kill him or not. He knew killing him would destroy the universe just like he knew wounding him would have repercussions. So worse case, that was the evilest act in history and best case, the stupidest. That’s all on Sam.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

Oh, my gosh, it's not always about ME. Not by a long shot. And I pay plenty of freaking attention to everything. I don't just sit and watch the show to hate on one brother or the other.

One brother doesn't have to be the "bad guy." It can't be that if Dean says something that goes against his character, or is negative, that it's the writers' fault, but with Sam he's always a selfish bastard, and it's never the way he's written.

If we're talking about three-dimensional characters here, there's no "yahtzee". It's not just one thing. There's no "Sam's just a selfish ass who only thinks of himself, while Dean is pure light who is good and wonderful and only wants what's best for everyone."

It's like what Dean came to the realization of in this episode. He stopped seeing all "monsters" as bad and something that needs to be killed. He realized that seeing things in black and white, good and bad, didn't serve him.

At one time or another, they've both felt guilty about stuff they've done to one another and others. They both know how to beat themselves up for decisions they made they thought were good at the time but eventually got people killed.

Sam and Dean can both be flawed characters. Seeing the flaws in anyone, whether it's a person or a character, is healthy. Putting anyone on a pedestal or seeing someone as totally one way, whether it's good or bad, isn't.

I suppose if you look at anything through only one lens, then yes, you'll only see those things. It's called confirmation bias. Where you ignore everything else and just concentrate on whatever suits your own theory. That's not paying attention. That's looking for whatever proves your bias.

Neither Sam nor Dean are totally good, totally bad, or totally selfish. The reason Chuck knew Dean would do the deed, is because he's only too willing to get himself killed for the greater good. So Sam holding onto his legs, telling him he's making a mistake, is not the way to get through to Dean.

And okay, fine. they wouldn't have been in this mess if A, B, C, or D happened, but they did, so now they're faced with this ridiculous scenario that they don't have a second to think about, because if they did, they would have realized how nonsensical it was. Which is what Chuck was counting on. Given like five minutes, and all of them putting their heads together, someone would have come to the conclusion that the gun was a load of crap.

taken to Bitch vs Jerk

Edited April 27, 2019 by tessathereaper

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

If Jack is the new God, does Chuck become the new devil?

Not as long as Pellegrino is around.

[SueB]

Second watch thoughts ... still rough & sketchy... 

I'm not ready to draw a series-wide conclusion about anything in this episode yet. Between the meta overload and the "writer's lie" thesis -- I'm hesitant to put much in concrete just yet.  Except Sam loves Celine Dion and Dean watches Jeopardy every night.  I will die on those hills.  

With that caveat, I have some observations (in an interestingly observational way):
- Jack pissed off Chuck. I'm not sure yet how much of the story Chuck is writing or simply 'enabling' situations and then letting his 'characters' write the story.  But I think Jack pissed off Chuck because he's too powerful, too unstable.  Dipping into meta... he was fun to take out an play with, but when the reality of his powers and his choices was revealed, it was like the story was backed into a corner with no good way out.  Chuck had to get involved and hit the 'reset' button again -- which I think pissed him off.  Chuck acted like he wanted to be entertained - and while he enjoyed being one of the 'boys' in S11, he was forced to get engaged with Jack running loose (versus choosing).  
- Billy as Death also pisses him off. 'Sticking 'his' scythe in places where it doesn't belong.' Billy isn't playing by Chuck's rules.  And as a 'character', she's making decisions he doesn't like.
- Chuck was doing an awful lot of secret smiling in this episode. When there was conflict with the boys.  When he was showing off his powers.  
- Chuck misses Metatron - and he's STILL not good at naming (Equilizer and Hammurabi*). I think his writing has gotten worse.  The 'gun' was a pretty weak-sauce invention - not nearly as sophisticated as some of his past constructs. A little too on the nose for "Dean will shoot Jack" plan - it's too obvious.  
- Chuck was amused by Dean smashing the guitar (that may have been a setup on his part) but he was not amused that Dean had lost all sense of awe.  
- The zombie apocalypse ending is like "Butch & Sundance" for TFW.  The ending J2 used to talk about.  It's almost as if Chuck decided that 'blaze of glory' ending was the best way for this story -- and the real writers are letting us know, that is not going to be the way the show actually ends.

- Sam and Dean: I understood both points of view.  But I have to say I was kind of proud of Sam saying he wasn't going to give his blessing.  And oddly, I think Dean would agree.  
- Dean and Cas: OUCH. Dean is disproportionately (IMO) holding Cas accountable.  And I'm not sure why.  Again, I understand both points of view. Again I was proud of Cas strapping on a backbone and walking out. I want that relationship explicitly healed in S15.  
- Dean and Jack:  NICE throwback to "Point of No Return"!  When Jack kneels and accepts his fate - Dean cocks his head.  I think that was when he realized Jack could be rehabilitated into someone who does the right thing.  
- Cas and Jack: Yes, I was happy for the hug.  And I was happy Jack bluntly admitted he wanted to love Cas back but didn't. Cas saw a being worth saving in Jack and I get why.
- Sam and Chuck: WHY did Sam shoot Chuck?  He didn't shoot him in the heart - and Sam is a good shot.  Was he trying to test the weapon? This could go nowhere or could be something that is followed up in S15.
- Dean speaking about Mary. I LOVED THAT MOMENT.  It felt like closure. And I loved how horrified Dean was to hear Chuck offer up a hostage exchange.  Chuck sooooo wanted Dean to kill his own 'son'.  Maybe Chuck likes to torture Dean the most because Dean has always been critical.

 "Are you not entertained?!" - Winchester Style (with apologies to Maximus Decimus Meridius, aka Gladiator). My meta head kinda exploded on that topic.  But I also know, flat out, that the cast & writers love the characters. So were they poking at themselves for torturing fictional characters or poking at the audience or both?

I don't think the Queen of England is a reptile - I think Chuck was screwing with us.

I need someone to write a fic about Stapler Queen and the Cheese Man (from Buffy The Vampire Slayer).  Just... work with me on this. 

Risky forecast: One of the babysitting reapers is going to help the boys not die immediately.  I think Billy saw this coming. 

*Hammurabi - as in "Code of" -- i.e. 'eye for an eye'.  Took me a minute.  

[crowsworks]

Sam is Deans Giant Baby. He made him. 

I hope Amara becomes God and the show ends with her giving dean a 60 Million lottery ticket.

[mertensia]

Do you ever play "if I were on Supernatural which character would I be? " I have, and now I know.  I would be the Stapler Lady to the extreme. I'd be hoarding ALL the office supplies with a huge smile on my face.

I liked this episode. Also, I can see Chuck telling Abraham to sacrifice his son then saying "just kidding!" It fits his personality.

[sigmaforce86]

The good - I laughed a lot in the first half, the whole truth thing was well done, I especially liked stapler lady and the boys interactions.  Also Castiel's (Micha's) "What" was so well done.  The return of things the brothers have killed was a nice twist although I think the Bloody Mary could have been done better either a different actor or the effects were off, not sure it just didn't look right compared to S1.  Honestly I'd rather have seen a few more of those returning in different places and cut the zombie attack in the graveyard a little shorter even if it was setting up the cliffhanger.

OK who else thought about Daryl Dixon showing up on his motorcycle as the zombies closed in?  

Can't Jack just be dead?  They had to throw in that scene and hint at his return (again).  He's a good actor but he's dragging things down.   We are begging the writers, you have lot's and lot's of time to come up with an end game, the show didn't just get cancelled unexpectedly, there is time to plan. Please, please take Jared, Jensen, Mischa and the fans views into consideration and DON'T bog down S15 with an overly complicated arc that doesn't progress and depends on a lot of talking and angst week after week.  Don't go out on a vague "you'll never know how it really ended" note like Angel did; case in point if the final scene of S14 in the graveyard were the final scene of the entire show! - Please don't do that.

My one complaint - the final scene again - it was well done, suspenseful, leaves on a cliffhanger the whole deal but - why in the world didn't the guys just pick a direction and charge through one section of zombies weapons swinging?  They have two cars waiting for them, go that way; don't wait for the horde to completely surround and out number you.  Made for a good camera shot at the end but for them to stand there and wait to fight, win and live it didn't make much sense.

[PAForrest]

21 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Do you ever play "if I were on Supernatural which character would I be? " I have, and now I know.  I would be the Stapler Lady to the extreme. I'd be hoarding ALL the office supplies with a huge smile on my face.

I liked this episode. Also, I can see Chuck telling Abraham to sacrifice his son then saying "just kidding!" It fits his personality.

LOL! I'd be the guy tearing up paper sing-songing, "I hate everyone, I hate everyone ..." I totally grok that guy. He was my hero. 😉

I actually watched this episode twice, and even though I think it has a megaton of hot mess problems, and even though I do believe it's Dabb's scorched-earth F-U to the original premise (what say ye, Kripke?) and the two lead characters - something Dabb has wanted to do for years, obviously - the writing in this episode was weirdly entertaining enough. Which means Dabb can still write and would be an even better writer if he was under someone else's direction, someone who liked the show and had a solid vision.

Given Chuck's devolving into dark-side mustache-twirling, it really seems the perfect set-up for Amara to step in again, but this time as the light-side. I think that would be a fitting flip-flop.

[ILoveReading]

This show doesn't have the budget for a Zombie apocalypse. 

I suspect that the zombies will be dealt with in the first ten minutes.  We'll get glimpses of them fighting while the real focus of the scene is on Billie's conversation with Jack.   Then he'll swoop down, take out all the zombies and then it will be business as usual with the writers being lazy and copy and pasting eps with the Winchesters trying to track down all the things they hunted before.

The episodes Cas and Jack aren't in, i'm sure we'll get an offhand reference to Cas taking Jack hunting and him putting down monsters at 10x the rate of the Winchester. 

[MysteryGuest]

I will watch the episode again, just to see if it improves for me with a second viewing.  Sadly, I know my opinions are tainted by the fact that I've never liked the God storyline, and the angels and demons bore me to tears.  And Lucifer is still. not. gone.  

[Castiels Cat]

16 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

LOL! I'd be the guy tearing up paper sing-songing, "I hate everyone, I hate everyone ..." I totally grok that guy. He was my hero. 😉

I actually watched this episode twice, and even though I think it has a megaton of hot mess problems, and even though I do believe it's Dabb's scorched-earth F-U to the original premise (what say ye, Kripke?) and the two lead characters - something Dabb has wanted to do for years, obviously - the writing in this episode was weirdly entertaining enough. Which means Dabb can still write and would be an even better writer if he was under someone else's direction, someone who liked the show and had a solid vision.

Given Chuck's devolving into dark-side mustache-twirling, it really seems the perfect set-up for Amara to step in again, but this time as the light-side. I think that would be a fitting flip-flop.

I never thought Amara was bad per se. She was very powerful and very angry. God and his henchmen had had eons to do a massive smear campaign after lo king her up for speaking her mind. Now that Chuck is the bad guy all of the former bad guys that are Chuck adjacent can be seen in a new light. They were reacting to him, driven bonkers manipulated by him or smeared by him. To me this potentially has interest. Immediately AU Michael is sympathetic. Lucifer is even sympathetic. They dealt with his crap far longer than Sam and Dean and were designed to serve him. They don't even have souls.

I guess Dabb really really pissed Mark S. Off with bad writing and his pettiness regarding that situation seems perpetual worh the yearly faux Crowley and someone else getting to use M.S. 's line that was cut from his literal swan song.

IDK. I found the end silly. The lying stuff silly...

I had tornado outages... Jack's sudden mental clarity without a soul was confusing. I doubt Chuck is scared of Jack because he did kill him with a finger snap. However if Amara chooses Dean again...

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

think it was fantastic that Dean, who's always too willing to kill himself, took a moment to step back and realize there could be another way out of this. The way I took it was that his cries of "We kill monsters! That's what we do!" black and white of it all, is no longer who he is

He hasn't been black and white about monsters in years. He questioned all the way back to Lenore's first appearance when he worried they had been killing monsters that didn't deserve it. And there was Benny. My point being Dean's reason for not shooting Jack had little to do with Dean thinking there was another and far more to do with Dean thinking about Mary and that she wouldn't want it that way. Not because he suddenly was on board finding another way. Dean had already suggested another way that Sam wasn't on board with doing with the soul bomb. Chuck showing up with a new gun eliminated the need for Dean to go the soul bomb route. Either way Dean was going to take on an unrequested and unwanted burden which was basically Save Jack or Kill Jack. The only reason Chuck came back was to make the story go the way he wanted. He wasn't there to save Jack. He was there to make Dean his puppet and Dean was all nope.

An that's where the writing wasn't nearly as clever as it thought it was. It had no build up like s4 and s5 making it was an asspull just for shock value. I don't believe Dabb planned it for the whole season to have Chuck be the big bad. I think he was setting up Nougat Sue for an Anakin Skywalker story that would have carried through for another season. But the boys pulled the plug on the show and he decided to make Chuck the bad guy instead.

Nothing is organic about Chuck just fucking with Dean and Sam because he can. It's stupid.

I've always said Chuck is a bag of dicks but he tested the boys to choose family and now he's just fucking with them. It's just..not good.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

He hasn't been black and white about monsters in years. He questioned all the way back to Lenore's first appearance when he worried they had been killing monsters that didn't deserve it. And there was Benny. My point being Dean's reason for not shooting Jack had little to do with Dean thinking there was another and far more to do with Dean thinking about Mary and that she wouldn't want it that way. Not because he suddenly was on board finding another way. Dean had already suggested another way that Sam wasn't on board with doing with the soul bomb. Chuck showing up with a new gun eliminated the need for Dean to go the soul bomb route. Either way Dean was going to take on an unrequested and unwanted burden which was basically Save Jack or Kill Jack. The only reason Chuck came back was to make the story go the way he wanted. He wasn't there to save Jack. He was there to make Dean his puppet and Dean was all nope.

An that's where the writing wasn't nearly as clever as it thought it was. It had no build up like s4 and s5 making it was an asspull just for shock value. I don't believe Dabb planned it for the whole season to have Chuck be the big bad. I think he was setting up Nougat Sue for an Anakin Skywalker story that would have carried through for another season. But the boys pulled the plug on the show and he decided to make Chuck the bad guy instead.

Nothing is organic about Chuck just fucking with Dean and Sam because he can. It's stupid.

I've always said Chuck is a bag of dicks but he tested the boys to choose family and now he's just fucking with them. It's just..not good.

IA with all of this. 

I think that Dabb threw Chuck under the bus, too; but better him than Dean whom it appeared to me was going to be the character to get that treatment in the episodes leading up to the finale. 

Who knows, it wouldn't surprise me if his plans changed as soon as he found out that he'd be sitting across from the Js at the writer's table in less than a month, going into the last season of the show.

[S Cook Productions]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

Second watch thoughts ... still rough & sketchy... 

I'm not ready to draw a series-wide conclusion about anything in this episode yet. Between the meta overload and the "writer's lie" thesis -- I'm hesitant to put much in concrete just yet.  Except Sam loves Celine Dion and Dean watches Jeopardy every night.  I will die on those hills.  

With that caveat, I have some observations (in an interestingly observational way):
- Jack pissed off Chuck. I'm not sure yet how much of the story Chuck is writing or simply 'enabling' situations and then letting his 'characters' write the story.  But I think Jack pissed off Chuck because he's too powerful, too unstable.  Dipping into meta... he was fun to take out an play with, but when the reality of his powers and his choices was revealed, it was like the story was backed into a corner with no good way out.  Chuck had to get involved and hit the 'reset' button again -- which I think pissed him off.  Chuck acted like he wanted to be entertained - and while he enjoyed being one of the 'boys' in S11, he was forced to get engaged with Jack running loose (versus choosing).  
- Billy as Death also pisses him off. 'Sticking 'his' scythe in places where it doesn't belong.' Billy isn't playing by Chuck's rules.  And as a 'character', she's making decisions he doesn't like.
- Chuck was doing an awful lot of secret smiling in this episode. When there was conflict with the boys.  When he was showing off his powers.  
- Chuck misses Metatron - and he's STILL not good at naming (Equilizer and Hammurabi*). I think his writing has gotten worse.  The 'gun' was a pretty weak-sauce invention - not nearly as sophisticated as some of his past constructs. A little too on the nose for "Dean will shoot Jack" plan - it's too obvious.  
- Chuck was amused by Dean smashing the guitar (that may have been a setup on his part) but he was not amused that Dean had lost all sense of awe.  
- The zombie apocalypse ending is like "Butch & Sundance" for TFW.  The ending J2 used to talk about.  It's almost as if Chuck decided that 'blaze of glory' ending was the best way for this story -- and the real writers are letting us know, that is not going to be the way the show actually ends.

- Sam and Dean: I understood both points of view.  But I have to say I was kind of proud of Sam saying he wasn't going to give his blessing.  And oddly, I think Dean would agree.  
- Dean and Cas: OUCH. Dean is disproportionately (IMO) holding Cas accountable.  And I'm not sure why.  Again, I understand both points of view. Again I was proud of Cas strapping on a backbone and walking out. I want that relationship explicitly healed in S15.  
- Dean and Jack:  NICE throwback to "Point of No Return"!  When Jack kneels and accepts his fate - Dean cocks his head.  I think that was when he realized Jack could be rehabilitated into someone who does the right thing.  
- Cas and Jack: Yes, I was happy for the hug.  And I was happy Jack bluntly admitted he wanted to love Cas back but didn't. Cas saw a being worth saving in Jack and I get why.
- Sam and Chuck: WHY did Sam shoot Chuck?  He didn't shoot him in the heart - and Sam is a good shot.  Was he trying to test the weapon? This could go nowhere or could be something that is followed up in S15.
- Dean speaking about Mary. I LOVED THAT MOMENT.  It felt like closure. And I loved how horrified Dean was to hear Chuck offer up a hostage exchange.  Chuck sooooo wanted Dean to kill his own 'son'.  Maybe Chuck likes to torture Dean the most because Dean has always been critical.

 "Are you not entertained?!" - Winchester Style (with apologies to Maximus Decimus Meridius, aka Gladiator). My meta head kinda exploded on that topic.  But I also know, flat out, that the cast & writers love the characters. So were they poking at themselves for torturing fictional characters or poking at the audience or both?

I don't think the Queen of England is a reptile - I think Chuck was screwing with us.

I need someone to write a fic about Stapler Queen and the Cheese Man (from Buffy The Vampire Slayer).  Just... work with me on this. 

Risky forecast: One of the babysitting reapers is going to help the boys not die immediately.  I think Billy saw this coming. 

*Hammurabi - as in "Code of" -- i.e. 'eye for an eye'.  Took me a minute.  

As always, Sue B, this- all of this. 👆🏻

[catrox14]

Of all the dumb things in this episode, Chuck saying the father killing his son, is such billshit because the only way that works is if Lucifer killed Jack. Or Cas at best. The only reason I can see for the show putting that on Dean is that they wanted a rift between Dean and Cas. Sam would have been a more effective father figure to kill Jack. Sure, Dean woul do it because he makes those hard calls which made it seem like it's just a given that Dean was Jack's defacto father for me it doesn't wash. YMMV

[catrox14]

Oh another thing, so NOW they bring up the Cage and it's brought up by Cas, but no one could be arsed to bring up the Cage with  AUichael running around? The should have never mentioned at all for Jack...other than getting OGMichael out to help them. JFC that's awful writing.

[DeeDee79]

Well, I just watched. I didn't hate it but it was pretty painful to sit through. This episode killed off any remaining affection that I still had for Castiel. He was completely insufferable and his blindspot where Jack is concerned is unbelievably ridiculous. Sam and Dean were okay though I didn't like the constant angst and teary eyed expressions whenever Dean brought up killing Jack. I got a migraine from all of the eyerolling that I did during those scenes. Also, I wasn't totally on board with Chuck being God but I did enjoy the character of Chuck Shurley the prophet/writer and now they've ruined another character.

I also don't want to get too deep into the repeated insult to religion on this show since they enjoy trashing all religions but the depiction of angels, heaven and now God had made me so disappointed in this show along with the bad plotlines. If they reverse everything that's been done throughout the show's history maybe that'll include the angels losing their wings and dying out and we can finally be rid of their overstayed welcome on this show.

[gonzosgirrl]

The worst among the litany of things wrong with the character of Jack is that they can't decide if he is emotionless or nothing bu emotion. Sorry terrible writers, he can't both be incapable of feeling love, and terribly hurt that they might not love him. As someone else said, rage is also an emotion, and he's certainly displayed that. So is fear.  He's taken satisfaction in his kills, and pride in his execution of Duma's orders. Yet we're supposed to get weepy over his confession that he can't feel love? Nope. 

[BabySpinach]

This was definitely the most I've disliked Cas since season 6.

He's burbling on about locking Jack up instead of killing him, even though he tore into Dean for doing just that last week. He doesn't give a single fuck about the multiple innocents Jack has tortured and killed, instead conveniently putting all the blame on Duma. His "profound bond" with Dean is practically nonexistent now, since he'll stand against him just to protect the soulless Antichrist.

Out of the three, Cas has probably been ruined the most by Nougat Boy's presence. He's become one of those coddling, enabling parents that argues with his kid's teachers and has no defined personality beyond his dad role.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

This was definitely the most I've disliked Cas since season 6.

He's burbling on about locking Jack up instead of killing him, even though he tore into Dean for doing just that last week. He doesn't give a single fuck about the multiple innocents Jack has tortured and killed, instead conveniently putting all the blame on Duma. His "profound bond" with Dean is practically nonexistent now, since he'll stand against him just to protect the soulless Antichrist.

Out of the three, Cas has probably been ruined the most by Nougat Boy's presence. He's become one of those coddling, enabling parents that argues with his kid's teachers and has no defined personality beyond his dad role.

I agree with this entire post. Cas has been stuck on stupid since season 12 when he began blathering on about paradise. It was hard to even listen to him in this episode.

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, Wateroflife said:

I suppose it was intentionally bad on the writers part, but what the heck was up with that silly gun that can kill anything, but will inflict the same damage back upon it's wielder? What kind of hokey, last minute, inauthentic drama-manufacturing concept is that? I guess they were trying to highlight what a terrible writer Chuck is?? It reminds me of those Colbert bits where he has the kids brainstorm plots for movies.

I admit I haven't watched the episode yet, perhaps it played better in action than it sounds?

It's a literal manifestation of Chekhov's gun... so very cute ain't it?... NOT!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

[Castiels Cat]

18 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

Now that I have a moment to finish my other thought, about Jack and Chuck, do you think this is the reason the angels were told that Nephilim were abominations? Because Chuck was afraid they would be more powerful than he is?

He isn't necessarily. Chuck easily killed him. Chuck easily reversed everything.  Chuck lies. Chuck was playing them the entire time.

[Dobian]

I'd like to know how the three of them get out of that Walking Dead scenario at the end considering the last shot is of them getting completely swallowed up by that mob.

A world where no one lies would be pretty much what they showed, though maybe not as hilarious to watch.  Sociological research has shown that lying is an essential part of human communication, interaction, and collaboration.

So Chuck is a narcissistic sociopath, that is pretty consistent with what we have known about him.

Alexander Calvert did an excellent job of playing Jack, showing the range of his feelings throughout the season and in the finale.  He brought a lot of depth to the character.  I've always been a fan of Jack, and I'm glad the writers didn't have him devolve into a one-dimensional killing machine.

One season to go with God as the principle villain.  Should be a good one.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Dobian

[sarthaz]

"See! It was Chuck! Chuck was the hack writer who fucked everything up. It was him (not me)!!!" - A. Dabb

[sarthaz]

21 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

I guess we'll find out in about six months or so.

Or ... and stay with me here ... they'll drop the entire plotline after 3 episodes like they do every f'n year now.

[ILoveReading]

18 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Or ... and stay with me here ... they'll drop the entire plotline after 3 episodes like they do every f'n year now.

Unless the story line is about Jack then it will never end.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'd like to know how the three of them get out of that Walking Dead scenario at the end considering the last shot is of them getting completely swallowed up by that mob.

This. The only way is either Chuck having a change of heart, or, most likely,  Nougat Sue beaming back from The Empty just in time to either woo out the zombies/ghosts or zapping them back to the bunker. There is no way they survive that without Supernatural intervention. 

Or maybe Sam could just yell at them and order them all back to Hell. 

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This. The only way is either Chuck having a change of heart, or, most likely,  Nougat Sue beaming back from The Empty just in time to either woo out the zombies/ghosts or zapping them back to the bunker. There is no way they survive that without Supernatural intervention. 

Or maybe Sam could just yell at them and order them all back to Hell. 

Sadly these are all plausible scenarios ☹️

[7kstar]

Well, I just watched the last two eps back to back and I'm out.  I'm not a fan of the Walking Dead and I have zero desire to watch the mess they just created.  I may check out to see if an ep is worth watching but not sure I will.  No this was not the best finale cliff hanger ever.  Not for me.

I did enjoy Dean being all end and Sam trying to stop it, but I'm not interested in the last season which is a shame.  I just don't see how the J2's can save this mess.

I haven't read through the thread so for those that loved it well enjoy.  Funny it was the last few moments I despise.  This entire season was a mess and this ep didn't make it worth it to me.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This. The only way is either Chuck having a change of heart, or, most likely,  Nougat Sue beaming back from The Empty just in time to either woo out the zombies/ghosts or zapping them back to the bunker. There is no way they survive that without Supernatural intervention. 

Or maybe Sam could just yell at them and order them all back to Hell. 

I'm almost convinced it will be the souls going to Sam ....as the Boy King of Hell for leadership. I'm not even kidding.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm almost convinced it will be the souls going to Sam ....as the Boy King of Hell for leadership. I'm not even kidding.

🤮

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, 7kstar said:

Well, I just watched the last two eps back to back and I'm out.  I'm not a fan of the Walking Dead and I have zero desire to watch the mess they just created.  I may check out to see if an ep is worth watching but not sure I will.  No this was not the best finale cliff hanger ever.  Not for me.

I did enjoy Dean being all end and Sam trying to stop it, but I'm not interested in the last season which is a shame.  I just don't see how the J2's can save this mess.

I haven't read through the thread so for those that loved it well enjoy.  Funny it was the last few moments I despise.  This entire season was a mess and this ep didn't make it worth it to me.

Don’t worry about it too much. They don’t have the budget to do Walking Dead and I doubt there is enough to do weekly ghost effects. They will reset. They always reset.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm almost convinced it will be the souls going to Sam ....as the Boy King of Hell for leadership. I'm not even kidding.

My new theory is The Empty gives Jack a power up so he can get ALL of Sam and Deans old kills.

[Jediknight]

10 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'd like to know how the three of them get out of that Walking Dead scenario at the end considering the last shot is of them getting completely swallowed up by that mob.

Bela, Original Bobby, John, Rufus, Jo, and Ellen, mow all the zombies down, look at the Winchesters and just say "Had to break the world again."

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Bela, Original Bobby, John, Rufus, Jo, and Ellen, mow all the zombies down, look at the Winchesters and just say "Had to break the world again."

I don't see how that works.  It's only souls from Hell that seem to have come back. OG!Bobby was rescued from Hell and was last seen in Heaven Jail, Rufus, Jo and Ellen are likely somewhere in Heaven.  Unless you're suggesting Heaven's souls are out as well, which isn't what I got from this episode. Well, Bela could come back but I don't it will be Lauren Cohan.  I don't want all these characters recast either. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by catrox14

[mertensia]

11 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'd like to know how the three of them get out of that Walking Dead scenario at the end considering the last shot is of them getting completely swallowed up by that mob.

Dance off.