S05.E19: Snow Pack

[RobertDeSneero]

12 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't understand the purpose of putting the Snow family drama and Cicada weird out of nowhere appearance into this episode, but whatever show... This is just poor storytelling. 

They are there to hit Barry over the head with a sledgehammer about the importance of family.

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

He was with Breacher . . . for some reason. 

Cisco was consulting about ways to track Cicada.

As someone who has proven to be capable of some very inappropriate rage-induced behavior, I can relate to both Barry and Nora in this episode.


 

[Brinny]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Are they, though? Not this particular writing duo.

I came into Flash late, marathoning on Netflix (I think this is the first season I’m watching “live”), so I haven’t really paid attention to different writers since they tend to blur together when you binge. It seemed like such a lazy reference. Back to the Future’s time machine goes at 88 MPH? Ours too!!

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am with you on the twins' names. I think those ridiculous names will be changed as a result of Thawne killing Barry's mother and changing the timeline. I can see them calling the twins, Nora and Henry. 

I could see them doing Dawn and Henry. 

I guess if Nora does erase herself, the West-Allen baby could be Henry instead (like the Diggle baby switch that was mentioned upthread), but I doubt they’ll get such good casting again as JPK. 

Of course, Nora ceasing to exist altogether brings up a whole whack of time paradox issues that makes my head hurt and gives me Savitar flashbacks. 

4 hours ago, Starry said:

Iris was out of line when she said that she didn't care about Nora working with Thawne. Maybe things would have been different if she didn't spend months believing that she ruined Nora, that she was a terrible mother, that she was destined to become someone her daughter would hate. I believe that in part does explain why she's partial to Nora and has troubles letting her go. She's overcompensating. Too bad it's all for nothing since apparently Nora only cares about daddy 🙄

Barry was wrong in banishing Nora without consulting Iris and leaving her even more vulnerable to Thawne's manipulations. He himself worked with Thawne but I think the difference with Nora is that Barry had his team helping and agreeing to his plans. He didn't go behind people's backs. Nora kept lying to everyone even after gaining their trust and learning of one more evil thing Thawne did to ruin her dad's life. In part I understand why Nora has troubles cutting ties with him. He was her first mentor. At the time he was her only team mate.

The writing is still spotty but this is a layered storyline. Everyone is wrong. Everyone has a point.

Loved seeing Barry and Iris working things out like a mature couple. 

As much as I liked that Barry and Iris had it out, I felt like they really did Iris a disservice by making her not care that Nora was working with Thawne. There was no reason why she couldn’t have been furious with Barry for speeding their daughter back to 2049 without first consulting her and also angry at Nora for betraying them with Thawne. People can have multiple feelings at once! We’re complex beings. 

Giving Iris such a radical point of view that she had no feelings about her daughter working with the man who murdered Barry’s mother in front of him and who caused Eddie’s death, just made her seem kind of heartless. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Brinny
Typos. Always typos.

[adora721]

8 hours ago, Brinny said:

On the complete opposite side of realism: DUDES. Icicle straight up looks like he's out of Schumacher's Batman & Robin. I'm super not here for any sort of Caitlin storyline, but man do I love me some DC cheese. So much so, that I was Icicle's side for this one. Erase Caitlin, give me permanent Killer Frost (Permafrost? Heh), and just go full on over the top campy villain family of ice monsters headed up by Mr. Snow Miser. Of course they killed off Thomas and ruined my happy, little fantasy. Maybe Mama Snow can make this happen?

Permafrost! Love it; should be her new name.🤣

[Lady Calypso]

48 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Dumping her there, knowing that would be the last time she ever saw him and that essentially he's leaving her there with him presumably hating her enough to dump her there and that her father that she's idolized and looked up to may not love her anymore - that's just harsh.  Especially since she can't fix it.  She can't make up for it.  At all.  He's just done with her?

 What kind of father is that?

Well, that's the issue. Technically, he ISN'T a father yet. He isn't old enough to care for someone who is at between 26-29 years old. He's around her age and he's not able to care for someone like this because she hasn't even been born yet. So he's reacting emotionally about someone who he loves betraying him, but not really as a father. 

Which is what makes Nora's presence all the more confusing. Sure, Barry is her father but it's pretty hard to take care of his daughter who is his age. 

Barry's hurt may be tough to watch and he shouldn't be reacting like he has, but he knows this now. Plus, Nora did betray him personally. I presume he knows that she still goes to see Thawne, even after finding out the truth. What kind of explanation could she possibly have for that? Easy; there is no answer. She kept going back because she likes Thawne. She wasn't thinking about how hurt her dad would be when she continued to trust Thawne while knowing that her father has a heavy history with him. 

Dumping her back there may suck for Iris, but I honestly don't see how it could be that terrible for Nora. No shit Barry's pissed off at her. He should be hurt and betrayed. And it doesn't justify Nora getting so angry that her eyes turn red. It makes it seem like Barry's wrong in how he feels. Yes, he's wrong in his actions. But the reasons for him being angry at her are 100% justified. I hate that it looks like Barry will have to apologize to Nora. Yes, Barry should have at least attempted to listen to Nora's explanation, but to be fair, I assume all of this has only taken place in the last few days. This kind of betrayal can take a lot longer to get over. The whole family is acting emotionally, and yes, technically Barry has gone evil before (hello Savitar) but watching Nora turn evil for....her dad being mad at her is a pretty stupid way of bringing on a new villain. 

And that's why I can't muster up sympathy for Nora. I can find sympathy for Iris and for Barry, but Nora? It's just difficult when we know that Nora continued to see Thawne for weeks after finding out about him killing her grandmother and how that affected Barry's whole life. How can she not give him the time to deal with his very deep emotions? He's allowed to be done with her for now. It doesn't mean that can't change in days or weeks from now. We even saw that Iris and Barry were communicating by the end of the episode and it could have led to Barry getting past his initial anger and going to the future to talk to her. But now we'll never know because Iris had to witness her daughter taking off after basically declaring that she wasn't enough to stay good for, and Barry now will feel guilty for getting rightfully angry at Nora, even if his actions were not justified.

So, sorry show. No sympathy for Nora from me. 

[SimoneS]

When Barry told Iris, let's go get our kid. I literally rolled my eyes. You mean that almost 30 year old woman, Barry?! Just insane.

It hasn't struck Sherloque as curious that adult Grace arrived in a Star Labs time sphere just as they were taking away Orlin's powers? The same time sphere built for Thawne who is working with Nora to stop Cicada. Not even a little bit curious at this coincidence. Non? 

Edited April 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[cdnalor]

Wow,  this show is really hard on parents.  So long, Caitlin's dad!  I still think he should have been called Popsicle.  Every time Kyle Secor was on the show, I thought it was Tim Robbins.  At least we got to see a villain other than Cicada.  I'm starting to miss the villain-of-the-week formula.

 Iris saying how Thawne was looking at Nora with affection has me wondering if Thawne will somehow turn out to be Nora's real dad.  That's some soap-opera shit right there!

Why was the ice around Caitlin's cuffs a perfect cube? You only see that in cartoons.  It should have been a shapeless mass.

Why does the time sphere need the breacher gun?  What use is it if it can't travel on its own power?

I wouldn't mind seeing an Elongated Man spin-off series with a more comedic tone.

[Wilpen]

I thought Iris was awesome in this one. Sure, her saying she didn't care about Nora working with Thawne was out of line but here's the thing... Iris was reacting like a mother who lost her child. She was going to do or say anything in an attempt to get her daughter back. That was the point to Iris in my opinion which is why Barry sucked for bringing up Nora once hating her. 

Everything Iris did and said last night was as a mother hurt, panicked, wanting her child back. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Wilpen

[BkWurm1]

I think Barry took Iris not caring about Nora working with Thawne out of context.  (And the show wrote the dialogue in the worst way possible of course to make it more dramatic)

We saw when Iris was in the future that she did care and was upset about Nora even being in the same room as Thawne.  She wanted to protect Nora from him and I'm sure if all the chaos hadn't happened they would have sat Nora down and explained how insidious and tricky Thawne was, but Iris is not going to let being upset that Nora worked with Thawne be stronger than her desire to have her daughter in her life like Barry was doing.  So in that sense, she didn't care that Nora worked with him.  It wasn't enough of a reason to cut her out of their lives like that.  

Nora's turn to the darkside was some light switching over the top stuff.  I can only assume that her first attempt to travel via the reverse speed force (sigh) had her more susceptible to her negative thoughts already before Iris came to see her cause that was cringe worthy.  

I suppose it's possible that Eobard sees Nora as a daughter he is shaping in his likeness but most of what he says at leasts comes off as him genuinely not wanting her to be unhappy and wanting her reconciled with her father.  Interesting though that Nora's first goal in going back to 2019 wasn't making dad listen to her but being there to stop the new Cicada.  

The Snow Family stuff seemed rushed and out of place.  The pacing probably would have been fine but then they did the rapid Love saves evil dad and then he dies and it threw the whole plot out of whack.  

Killer Frost needs to take fighting lessons. And what was that thing about KF having two daggers to Cicada's one.  Didn't she have two glowy daggers last time we saw her? Did I forget something?

13 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

"If we make a baby now, could you make sure it's a boy? Save us the headache of Nora?" "Iris, for the last time, I wasn't even trying to turn the Diggles' kid into a boy."

FYI, JJ (aka Baby Sara who Barry turned into a boy) future was revealed in this week's Arrow.  The toddler that was going down to the Arrow lair as a newborn and had run ins with the League of Assassins as an infant and was making escapes from the bad guys on the back of a motorcycle before she was out of diapers, that chick would NOT have grown up to become

Spoiler

the head of the Deathstroke gang and try to kill her brother.  So I'm adding turning Diggle's kid evil

to Barry's list of blame.    

Edited April 24, 2019 by BkWurm1

[Brinny]

54 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

No, she isn't. Caitlin tested her, and she came back clean.

it's funny how everyone is pointing out that Nora is the same age as her parents, as I always considered her much younger. I don't know if that was intentional, so that Iris and Barry could actually seem like her parents, but I was surprised she had the same job as her dad, as I kept thinking of her as a kid.

The use of all the slang and saying everything was schway, etc., didn't make her seem at all like an adult. I also know Barry made the same kind of screw-ups, but maybe it's because his were laid out over time, whereas hers were basically a weekly occurrence, that it seemed worse. Neither she, nor anyone else, acted as if she was from another timeline and could change everything. She ran around willy-nilly, doing dangerous and impulsive stuff, without any regard for how it might affect everyone's future. No precautions were taken or anything.

I'm really hoping that Nora didn't build up that level of anger in two minutes. I kept thinking that they should have shown this build up over time, and then it came to me that maybe he'd been grooming her this entire time to become evil. Iris should take a second to wonder why he was looking at Nora with such affection. Was it because he'd built her in his image?

His absolute insistence that Iris and Barry stick together is so suspect. I'm just wondering what he has up his sleeve.

I'm also betting the electro-shock therapy has gotten him stronger. And speaking of that, i love how other people watched him being electrocuted and mentioned nothing about it. Even Nora, who pushes her nose into everyone's business, just waited for the t0rturing to be over before she pumped Thawne for information. 

Carla’s solution turned white after Cait threw it away. 

With respect to Thawne wanting Barry and Iris to stay together, maybe he just wants them to conceive Nora? He pretty seems attached to her at this point.

I do agree that I don’t think Iris actually doesn’t care that Thawne murdered the first Nora, but that’s certainly how the show presented it, which is the problem. 

ETA: @BkWurm1 I wish there was a way to do multiple reactions to a comment, because I both agree with most of what you said AND the JJ bit gave me a good chuckle, too. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Brinny

[Quark]

Grant Gustin and Candice Patton are easily two of the strongest actors in the Arrowverse. Amazing stuff from them.

I'm really curious by what has happened to Nora.

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, phoenics said:

I can't believe I'm defending Nora - and yes that is her time - but dumping her back there under those circumstances was unspeakably cruel of Barry.

Totally agree.  Barry is on my d!ck list for the indefinite future, he's been acting like a jackass.

[catrice2]

Nora still listening to Thawne and being so mad at Iris when Barry was the one who put her back where she belongs is but another reason I hate the writing for this character.  Where was Cisco? I did fast forward as per usual these days, so maybe I missed it...but regardless of where he was, don't they all carry emergency beepers and he is the one that can breach, right?

Do you ever wonder who is getting paid? I am seriously confused about who sat around and pitched the Nora story and everyone thought it was a good idea?  Especially after all the other "betrayals" speeders, Thawne, etc.  The Cidada story is also weak.  It is time for this show to go. I even feel like some of the actors are sick of it.  I end with the same wish...please let Joe stay around....I can only watch so many Law and Order reruns to see Jessie L. Martin ....

Edited April 24, 2019 by catrice2

[phoenics]

18 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Nora still listening to Thawne and being so mad at Iris when Barry was the one who put her back where she belongs is but another reason I hate the writing for this character.  Where was Cisco? I did fast forward as per usual these days, so maybe I missed it...but regardless of where he was, don't they all carry emergency beepers and he is the one that can breach, right?

Do you ever wonder who is getting paid? I am seriously confused about who sat around and pitched the Nora story and everyone thought it was a good idea?  Especially after all the other "betrayals" speeders, Thawne, etc.  The Cidada story is also weak.  It is time for this show to go. I even feel like some of the actors are sick of it.  I end with the same wish...please let Joe stay around....I can only watch so many Law and Order reruns to see Jessie L. Martin ....

Well the show did fire the Helbing brothers as EP/Showrunners, and brought Eric Wallace in as Showrunner, so there's that...

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think Barry took Iris not caring about Nora working with Thawne out of context.  (And the show wrote the dialogue in the worst way possible of course to make it more dramatic)

We saw when Iris was in the future that she did care and was upset about Nora even being in the same room as Thawne.  She wanted to protect Nora from him and I'm sure if all the chaos hadn't happened they would have sat Nora down and explained how insidious and tricky Thawne was, but Iris is not going to let being upset that Nora worked with Thawne be stronger than her desire to have her daughter in her life like Barry was doing.  So in that sense, she didn't care that Nora worked with him.  It wasn't enough of a reason to cut her out of their lives like that.  

Nora's turn to the darkside was some light switching over the top stuff.  I can only assume that her first attempt to travel via the reverse speed force (sigh) had her more susceptible to her negative thoughts already before Iris came to see her cause that was cringe worthy.  

I suppose it's possible that Eobard sees Nora as a daughter he is shaping in his likeness but most of what he says at leasts comes off as him genuinely not wanting her to be unhappy and wanting her reconciled with her father.  Interesting though that Nora's first goal in going back to 2019 wasn't making dad listen to her but being there to stop the new Cicada.  

The Snow Family stuff seemed rushed and out of place.  The pacing probably would have been fine but then they did the rapid Love saves evil dad and then he dies and it threw the whole plot out of whack.  

Killer Frost needs to take fighting lessons. And what was that thing about KF having two daggers to Cicada's one.  Didn't she have two glowy daggers last time we saw her? Did I forget something?

Agreed with everything above, especially the part in bold.  That's how I saw it too and I thought the dialogue did a really poor job of getting this across for "drama" sake.

But CP and GG brought the fire with that scene - it made the Cait/Carla argument look particularly bad in comparison.  I remember feeling very upset/stomachache/sad/worried during Barry/Iris' fight and only cringed during the Cait/Carla argument.  It just fell flat because of the way the actors delivered it - although Carla got in a few dry wit one liners that were funny in a dark way.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Dumping her back there may suck for Iris, but I honestly don't see how it could be that terrible for Nora. 

Barry cut Nora out of his life forever.  I can see how that would hurt anyone - especially if the person cutting you out is your dad, whom you idolize.

Barry talked a good game about people being given second chances but when Nora needed one, instead he showed that only applied to villains who tried to kill Iris and Cecile.  Those he has "second chances for".  But not his own daughter? 

Wow, Barry!

I'm not sure what Nora is supposed to do with that other than believe her father no longer loves her - which would wreck anyone.  It's daddy issues ramped up to a million.  

This isn't the same as Nora being temporarily sent to her room to "think about what she's done".  This is her father cutting her out of his life.  ForEVER.

And of course Barry has a right to his feelings - but he's still a dad.  Yeah - time travel makes that complicated but he's a dad.  Barry needs to learn that as a parent - sometimes you have to put your own hurt feelings aside for the good of your family.

And it honestly shouldn't matter whether Barry sees himself as a father.  He is.  Nora IS his daughter.  His actions - whether he believes he's a father or not - can still cause pain.

Nora's turn to the darkside is partially on him too.

[adora721]

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

I'm not sure what Nora is supposed to do with that other than believe her father no longer loves her - which would wreck anyone.  It's daddy issues ramped up to a million.  

Until you said this, it hadn't hit me that Nora has daddy issues the same way Barry has mommy issues, which led him to do some really stupid and reckless things.  Like father, like daughter.

The writers had Iris pull some punches by not mentioning Barry working with Thawne, Amunet, Capt. Cold, and Killer Frost, etc. 

Plus Barry's line  to Iris , "If it was anyone else, you'd support me on this."  was insane. That's the point Barry; it isn't just anyone else. It's your child!!!!!!!

Edited April 25, 2019 by adora721

[jmonique]

Nora West-Allen is perilously close to destroying my interest in this show.

Also, is Carlos Valdes filming a movie or something? Where the hell is he?

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

Plus Barry's line  to Iris , "If it was anyone else, you'd support me on this."  was insane. That's the point Barry; it isn't just anyone else. It's your child!!!!!!!

This is what stood out to me during their fight.  That he couldn't understand that it being their daughter absolutely changes things.  Of course emotions are part of the equation.  That's why you don't make any rash choices. 

You sit with what you've found out and process it and talk about it as a couple and with Nora and it might not be a quick resolution but it's parenting 101 that you can't just boot your kid out the door.   Again, Nora didn't actually do anything but take Eobard's advice.  Barry washed his hands of her like she was now tainted and ruined for good. 

Even once they reconcile, their relationship is going to be messed up with Nora unconsciously waiting for that day Barry has decided again to cut her out of his life over something she's done he doesn't like.  Even if she goes back to her timeline (and I assume Barry is not dead/vanished anymore) how would someone get that out of their head? Never knowing if something else could set him off?  

It's probably the first thing that has made me in favor of a reset to the future time line that includes Nora getting a redo in her life (meaning she'd not be the same Nora since she'd have had a different childhood) and not retaining any memories of her time in the past.   Not remembering how quickly your father could turn on you is something worth not knowing about and presumably by the time Barry becomes her dad, he'd have grown past that kind of behaviour.   

[shantown]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Even once they reconcile, their relationship is going to be messed up with Nora unconsciously waiting for that day Barry has decided again to cut her out of his life over something she's done he doesn't like.  Even if she goes back to her timeline (and I assume Barry is not dead/vanished anymore) how would someone get that out of their head? Never knowing if something else could set him off?  

It's probably the first thing that has made me in favor of a reset to the future time line that includes Nora getting a redo in her life (meaning she'd not be the same Nora since she'd have had a different childhood) and not retaining any memories of her time in the past.   Not remembering how quickly your father could turn on you is something worth not knowing about and presumably by the time Barry becomes her dad, he'd have grown past that kind of behaviour.   

Yeah, there's no way Nora (or any WestAllen kid) grows up to be THIS Nora now. Barry and Iris are already learning from future mistakes, so they won't make these same choices, same mistakes, same anything. Nora should have Marty McFly'd herself out of existence by now.

[blugirlami21]

Quote

I think the problem here is what someone else brought up.

Nora's "parents" are literally the same age as Nora. Iris hasn't given birth to her yet. They didn't watch her grow up and nurture her. Barry never saw her as a little girl. He never got to really know her as his DAUGHTER. Everything about this was completely unnatural.

She came to them as a fully formed human, unloaded the whopper on them that she was their kid, and they were expected to treat her as such, even though it was Nora's idea to introduce herself to her parents.

Barry's history has to come into play here. A person he trusted more than anyone, lied to him from the moment she arrived. And she continued to lie to him and go behind his back to talk to the man who killed his mother, even after (as he pointed out) she at that point knew his history and had other options, aka, the group, to help her. Yes, turning to Thawne in desperation after her friend died, and she was all alone, was fine. But once she knew who he was,  and she had the team behind her, she should have said and done something. 

Nora isn't a child. She's a grown woman who needs to see things as an adult.  Yes, Barry acted rashly, but when her mom took great risk to come back and talk to her. and let Nora know she supported her. Nora could have taken that time to sit down with her mom and get her story out. Convince her to talk to Barry. Iris would have let Nora know that yeah, Barry can sometimes be rash, but he was really hurt, and to give him a little time to come around. And that she'd be Nora's advocate.

Instead, Nora let her mom know that, once again, just her believing in Nora wasn't good enough, and acted just as rashly as Barry by running off to do something horrible and stupid.

I agree with all of this.  I don't feel bad for Nora because this is a situation of her own making.  She never learns from her bad decisions and she's so, so, selfish.  Her upbringing didn't seem that bad to me.  Some parents are overprotective, some aren't.  Iris had reason to be the way she was and she made some mistakes but nobody is perfect.  So your mom didn't tell you you had powers.  Am I the only one who feels like that's not a big deal?  It sounds like no one used their powers in the family ever again since Godspeed was the first speedster in decades.  Everyone made a sacrifice so that you could have a normal childhood without any unnecessary danger.  Why are you not grateful?  Why did you go straight to a criminal for answers when your Mom who knows all about it was right there?  Is still there?

Also her relationship with Thawne skives me out.  I don't care what his plan is and I feel like her relationship with future Iris is constantly being sacrificed at the altar of this gross manipulator who the show won't part ways with for some reason.

As the child of a single mom, I will never understand the level of disrespect that she has for Iris.  The way she treated Iris when she came to the future to basically tell her that she loved her and wanted her to be with them was unacceptable.  

And she should be different.  She should be changing all the time if we follow the rules set by the show.  I can't imagine a universe where Barry and Iris would still do everything wrong with this child knowing what they know.

I just don't understand why any of this was necessary.  This storyline has benefitted no one.  Everyone looks bad.  Nora is such a shoddily written character made up of the worst of Barry and Iris' traits.  She's somehow basically the main character on a show called The Flash.  If the writers wanted me to care about her, they failed.  

Edited April 25, 2019 by blugirlami21

[VCRTracking]

I'm down with Reverse XS being the real season Big Bad. The interesting season villains were the ones that have a real personal connection to Barry and Cicada and the Thinker weren't cutting it. I think Barry will be forced to make the tough decision in the finale. He can't kill her but maybe wiping her out from existence. Condemning her to the Speed Force would be worse but maybe too harsh and difficult for Barry to recover from or Iris to forgive.

[VCRTracking]

25 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

I just don't understand why any of this was necessary.  This storyline has benefitted no one.  Everyone looks bad.  Nora is such a shoddily written character made up of the worst of Barry and Iris' traits.  She's somehow basically the main character on a show called The Flash.  If the writers wanted me to care about her, they failed.   

It's the Anakin Skywalker dilemma. The story requires the character to be immature where they can be led astray by a bad influence who feeds their worst instincts. However it can't be a child because then the responsible adults around them look bad for dropping the ball and not giving them proper guidance. Unfortunately this makes the character difficult for viewers to like and empathize with so when they do fall to the Dark Side we don't care.

That said I am down with Reverse XS being the real season Big Bad. The interesting season villains were the ones that have a real personal connection to Barry and Cicada and the Thinker weren't cutting it. I think Barry will be forced to make the tough decision in the finale. He can't kill her but maybe wiping her out from existence. Condemning her to the Speed Force would be worse but maybe too harsh and difficult for Barry to recover from or Iris to forgive. That'll be where the emotion is and not what happens with Nora. As with Anakin I cared more about Obi-Wan's feelings at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Edited April 25, 2019 by VCRTracking

[BeautifulFlower]

20 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

I agree with all of this.  I don't feel bad for Nora because this is a situation of her own making.  She never learns from her bad decisions and she's so, so, selfish.  Her upbringing didn't seem that bad to me.  Some parents are overprotective, some aren't.  Iris had reason to be the way she was and she made some mistakes but nobody is perfect.  So your mom didn't tell you you had powers.  Am I the only one who feels like that's not a big deal?  It sounds like no one used their powers in the family ever again since Godspeed was the first speedster in decades.  Everyone made a sacrifice so that you could have a normal childhood without any unnecessary danger.  Why are you not grateful?  Why did you go straight to a criminal for answers when your Mom who knows all about it was right there?  Is still there?

Also her relationship with Thawne skives me out.  I don't care what his plan is and I feel like her relationship with future Iris is constantly being sacrificed at the altar of this gross manipulator who the show won't part ways with for some reason.

As the child of a single mom, I will never understand the level of disrespect that she has for Iris.  The way she treated Iris when she came to the future to basically tell her that she loved her and wanted her to be with them was unacceptable.  

And she should be different.  She should be changing all the time if we follow the rules set by the show.  I can't imagine a universe where Barry and Iris would still do everything wrong with this child knowing what they know.

I just don't understand why any of this was necessary.  This storyline has benefitted no one.  Everyone looks bad.  Nora is such a shoddily written character made up of the worst of Barry and Iris' traits.  She's somehow basically the main character on a show called The Flash.  If the writers wanted me to care about her, they failed.  

According to the rules, Barry and Iris Nora will be different from THIS Nora. Nora will simply return to her own timeline

[shantown]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

That said I am down with Reverse XS being the real season Big Bad. The interesting season villains were the ones that have a real personal connection to Barry and Cicada and the Thinker weren't cutting it.

I think structurally the season would have benefited from Cicada being the Big Bad for the opening third of the season, Grace Cicada being the Big Bad in the middle third, and Nora being the "real" Big Bad of the season in the final third. Gives it that personal connection, allows the threat to change/grow, and removes the need for Team Flash to lose for 21 episodes.

I just feel like the show never uses villains properly. There have been a few this season that should have had longer arcs (Godspeed, Goldface, even Popsicle) rather than a one-and-done.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I think Barry will be forced to make the tough decision in the finale. He can't kill her but maybe wiping her out from existence. Condemning her to the Speed Force would be worse but maybe too harsh and difficult for Barry to recover from or Iris to forgive.

I don't think it will get to the point where Barry would have to harm his own child. I suspect that the writing is setting up a Harry Potter and Voldemort type scenario. Because of Nora's sudden connection to Grace,  it may mean that when Grace dies, Nora dies, too.

[DearEvette]

On 4/24/2019 at 9:52 AM, Brinny said:

As much as I liked that Barry and Iris had it out, I felt like they really did Iris a disservice by making her not care that Nora was working with Thawne. There was no reason why she couldn’t have been furious with Barry for speeding their daughter back to 2049 without first consulting her and also angry at Nora for betraying them with Thawne. People can have multiple feelings at once! We’re complex beings. 

I agree.  Also I agree with others who are saying that the writing did Iris a disservice by making it seem like it she just didn't care at all about Thawne's role in Nora Allen's death. Of course she does, but this is plot based writing, not character based writing.

Also IIRC, Didn't Nora not know that Thawne killed her grandmother until Barry told her?  So from her perspective she was learning about speed from the only person who could teach her.  Yeah he was a criminal but he was the only person who could do what she wanted and she is a featherweight when it comes to his manipulation.  Kinda like Barry.  Thawne/Welles was Barry's mentor and he had no idea that Thawne had killed his mother.  And he continued to consort with Thawne in Flashpoint because it suited his agenda to do so.    He can condemn Nora for lying to them, but Barry did the same thing in the Flashpoint alterna-timeline to be with his living parents.  Honestly, as much as I hate to defend Nora, Barry just doesn't have the high ground here because dollars to donuts he would have done the exact same thing.

That said, I am not mad that he decided to make Nora go back because that is where she belongs(and her petulant ass makes me tired), but I do think him doing it not discussing it with Iris was a dick move.

Edited April 25, 2019 by DearEvette

[Trini]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I agree.  Also I agree with others who are saying that the writing did Iris a disservice by making it seem like it she just didn't care at all about Thawne's role in Nora Allen's death. Of course she does, but this is plot based writing, not character based writing.

There was a lot of that going around.

[tennisgurl]

Nora just seems to have so little empathy or understanding of why her father is furious about her palling around with Thawne, even after knowing everything he did. She knows he killed her grandma, she knows he killed Cisco in an alternate timeline, and thats just a few things (he joined the freaking Nazis!) he has pulled over the years, but she is just like "but he could have changed!" like an idiot, over and over. And she just kept lying, the whole time, sneaking around on her family, and if she didnt get found out, she probably never would have told them the truth. 

Considering how much of her angst with Iris is how Iris lied to her, that seems pretty freaking hypocritical. She wants everyone to understand her and her choices, but she wont stop to understand her parents until its practically shoved into her thick skull. And now, Iris travels all the way to the future to try and tell her she gets her pain, and she just stomps her foot and runs off in a pout. And this is supposed to be an adult! 

The fact that Barry and Iris are the same age as their daughter certainly has to affect how they all relate to each other as parents/kid, but it shouldn't affect how Nora just sees things as a person. 

[KirkB]

The whole "Maybe I can help them change" thing seems to be an Allen family trait. And to be fair, it worked with Snart. It even worked (though I know he wasn't a villain) in a different way with Ralph. So I can kind of see where giving someone a chance to change by working with them comes from. Not Thawne, though. A guy like Thawne, a brilliant egotist around whom the world revolves, that kind of person doesn't change. No matter what. He'll work with you when it suits him, he may even come to like you a lot, but that doesn't mean he won't vibrate his hand through your chest and rip out your heart once you have outlived your usefulness or have annoyed him. Nora spent all that time in the Flash museum. Even if she didn't know he killed her grandmother, she has to know he is a master manipulator who only acts polite but is cold and ruthless and absolutely untrustworthy. I get that he has helped her, and I can even see why she would accept training from literally the only person in the world who could help her, but going back to him time and again while lying to her parents is stupid for a grown woman. I come back to the idea she should really have been a teenager.

[Janie430]

I disagree that Iris didn't really screw up with the chip.  The analogy that comes to mind for me is blindness.  Let's say that Iris had had a device implanted in Nora that made her blind, because being blind was a better option than having vision because the government was after people with vision. 

So you have kid whose not mature enough to realize that their vision endangers them, you put the chip in.  If putting in the chip was the right thing to do for a child, fine.  But then at some point, you have to explain to the child what you did.  You explain to the kid why you did it.  You make them understand the issue.  You don't leave the chip in after they turn an adult.

Plus, she never told Iris about Barry being the Flash.  That's a huge part of his identity.  Worse, she told him he was a non-meta killed by a meta.  How do you talk about Barry as a complex man, who screwed up at times, without the Flash.

And even worse - everyone in her life, her family, the people she's supposed to trust when things get bad - also lied.  Every day, they chose to lie to her. After a while, they probably didn't think of it as a day to day thing.  It became easier.  Treating her as a person, an individual who had feelings and rights of their own, became . . . non-important.  That's some hard stuff.

The thing that gets me is that Joe did it - the guy who missed out on raising his son from a similar lie - didn't call Iris on it?  

[LisaM]

I cannot stand Nora; the whole storyline just blows. 

The only time that Nora did not completely irritate me was when we saw her with her friend who eventually was killed. Otherwise, I glance at my phone every time that Nora is on screen. 

[Katsullivan]

On 4/24/2019 at 5:34 PM, adora721 said:

The writers had Iris pull some punches by not mentioning Barry working with Thawne, Amunet, Capt. Cold, and Killer Frost, etc. 

Of course, they did.

6 hours ago, Janie430 said:

The analogy that comes to mind for me is blindness.  Let's say that Iris had had a device implanted in Nora that made her blind, because being blind was a better option than having vision because the government was after people with vision. 

That's a ridiculous analogy. For one thing, if we lived in a world people with vision were being hunted, they'd be blinding themselves. Voluntarily. Like this analogy is just nonsensical on so many levels. For another, Nora not having speed didn't make her blind or in anyway disabled. It just made her ordinary. It didn't dis-advantage her, it just took a super-"advantage" that no one else had - and that made her life dangerous. 

The real world analogy you're looking for is children with black ancestry being passed off as white in America. Their parents hiding their black family/history from them. Which happens all the time. And while most people who find out feel sad/confused about their identity, they don't end up hating/resenting the parent who passed them off because it's blatantly obvious why it was done. 

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Of course, they did.

That's a ridiculous analogy. For one thing, if we lived in a world people with vision were being hunted, they'd be blinding themselves. Voluntarily. Like this analogy is just nonsensical on so many levels. For another, Nora not having speed didn't make her blind or in anyway disabled. It just made her ordinary. It didn't dis-advantage her, it just took a super-"advantage" that no one else had - and that made her life dangerous. 

The real world analogy you're looking for is children with black ancestry being passed off as white in America. Their parents hiding their black family/history from them. Which happens all the time. And while most people who find out feel sad/confused about their identity, they don't end up hating/resenting the parent who passed them off because it's blatantly obvious why it was done. 

For one, it's not canon in the show that Iris chipped Nora to keep people from hunting her.  The Flash hasn't said any meta is hunted automatically in Central City and when Nora suddenly got powers, neither she nor her friend were worried about her being hunted because of them.  (They even have the museum in honor of a meta.)  Per what future Iris said, it was because she'd lost Barry and didn't want Nora in dangerous situations.  

The reason why I think the blindness parallel is apt on some levels is because Iris's actions, while not done with ill intent, removed a vital ability from Nora.  It doesn't matter if most other people did or didn't have that ability, it was Nora's.  It's like brainwashing someone with innate talents to sing or paint or write to the point they believe they are tone deaf or have no artistic eye or aren't able to put two words together.

  The loss of that ability that should so inexorably be a part of who you are, has the power to change everything.  And to know that something that you've yearned to be a part of from the sidelines all your life would have been yours if the person you most loved and trusted hadn't kept it from you, would be a hard betrayal to come back from which is why I was always sympathetic to the time it took Nora to work through her issues with Iris even if she was dealing with a different Iris.  

Forgiveness was the only way forward for Nora since as huge and selfish a blunder it was on Future Iris's part, there's also understanding now of her pain that drove her to such a huge mistake and the anger was hurting Nora more than anyone. 

Still, once Barry booted her back to the future I can see how after flirting with the Evil Speedforce which had to have already charged up her darker impulses, all those recent feelings of anger and betrayal would come rushing back when Iris showed up on top of the horrible thing that Barry had done to her.  I do feel like the episode didn't do a good job of getting the audience to understand where Nora's HUGE burst of anger came from since she had never lost it like that before even when she was brainwashed and trying to kill Barry but that's why I have to assume her emotions were already being influenced by the Negative SPeed force before she made it back through time. 

Nora should never have tried to access it when even Thawne advised against it but she was messed up emotionally at that time and only thinking of how she could still make things right so like understanding why Iris would out of fear make a mistake like chipping her kid and then not coming clean as she got older, I can also understand why Nora would take such a huge risk and not hold it against her in the long run.  Even if it was wrong and a mistake she'll come to regret.  

Edited April 27, 2019 by BkWurm1

[Katsullivan]

As for the government hunting/ future dystopia thing, I was replying directly to this:

7 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Let's say that Iris had had a device implanted in Nora that made her blind, because being blind was a better option than having vision because the government was after people with vision. 

I haven't watched this show and i never watched any of the Arrowverse shows so I have no idea what's going on or what has been retconned or forgotten or brushed under the carpet. The only thing that is consistent is characters and fandom shitting on Iris in whatever way possible. 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

The reason why I think the blindness parallel is apt on some levels is because Iris's actions, while not done with ill intent, removed a vital ability from Nora.  It doesn't matter if most other people did or didn't have that ability, it was Nora's.

It does matter because blindness is a real-life disability - meaning that while Nora is whining about not having god-like speed, there are real people in existence who can't use the bathroom without a machine or even another human being. I know we're all trying to score cheap internet points here but let's not veer into the offensive. You can come up with all manner of reasons to hate Iris - in addition to the ones the writers so happily provide - without equating real-life people like me who deal with real-life physical impairment to a fictional character's inability to run on water. 

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

You can come up with all manner of reasons to hate Iris - in addition to the ones the writers so happily provide - without equating real-life people like me who deal with real-life physical impairment to a fictional character's inability to run on water. 

I don't see how I was hating on Iris, that was not my goal, and I'm very sorry if any offence was given with the original example used.  Since it seemed to not be connecting, I did in my post move from a comparison of losing one of the five senses to losing a special ability in the arts to make it more clear, but I do believe the original intent behind the use of blindness was just to make it clear that something valuable was lost.  And that is what I was referring to when I said it didn't matter if other people did or did not have the ability that was suppressed in Nora.  It's not a slight against the real suffering of anyone with an impairment but a simplistic way for all to understand the weight of what for HER should have been part of her normal existence when it was taken away.  

I understand that it can seem unfair for someone that has many other physical blessings, things taken for granted that many others do not have to, to mourn the absence of something only a handful in the fictional population could ever achieve.  But the loss of a miraculous gift that should have been Nora's remains a real loss. 

It's akin to if when Supergirl comes to Earth Clark secretly cast a magical spell so she had none of the powers a Kryptonian should have had on earth because he is afraid if she became a hero she might get hurt and he'd lose his only remaining biological family.  Her life would be as a "normal" person and so maybe Clark would argue he's not taking anything away from her but she's not supposed to be a normal person. 

Supergirl is supposed to be able to help on a mythical level.  She's supposed to be able to changes lives and affect hearts and minds because of her abilities.  She's supposed to be able to save people and stop bad things from happening and not being able to do what she would feel on some level is her destiny would change the kind of person she becomes and when she would find out that her beloved cousin took all of that away from her, she'd have a right to feel violated. 

Maybe Clark only meant to leave the spell in place while she got adjusted to her new life and that doesn't sound any more unreasonable than Iris chipping Nora when she's too young to handle her powers but the reasonableness goes away once Nora came of age just like any defense Clark might have had in this hypothetical example would go away once she understood how life on earth worked.  Neither Clark nor Iris would be hated on if we call them on their poor choice.  It's wrong but not done out of cruelty even it it actually ends up being very hurtful.  

[rmontro]

On 4/25/2019 at 12:10 PM, blugirlami21 said:

I just don't understand why any of this was necessary.  This storyline has benefitted no one.  Everyone looks bad.  Nora is such a shoddily written character made up of the worst of Barry and Iris' traits.  She's somehow basically the main character on a show called The Flash.  If the writers wanted me to care about her, they failed.  

Worse than that, I don't even care about The Flash at this point, Barry's been too much of an ass.  If Nora becomes an irreversible super-villain now, it's a direct result of Barry's actions.  Nora's own judgement hasn't been good, but Barry basically drove her back to the man he thinks was manipulating her.  Way to take care of your daughter, Barry.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Worse than that, I don't even care about The Flash at this point, Barry's been too much of an ass.  If Nora becomes an irreversible super-villain now, it's a direct result of Barry's actions.  Nora's own judgement hasn't been good, but Barry basically drove her back to the man he thinks was manipulating her.  Way to take care of your daughter, Barry.

I couldn’t disagree more. Nora had a choice. And she chose to embrace or use the negative force to go back to the past. By this time she knows who Thawne is and how Barry feels about him. It’s only been a few days. And as for the idea that Barry abandoned Nora in the future-her own time? She already has a support system. She was thrilled to see her “Papa Joe” and Cecile too when she revealed herself to them all as Barry and Iris’s daughter. As far as I can remember, they’re still alive, as is Iris.

But par for the course for this show, they probably will change that too. Just as the reason she came to the past was to prevent Barry from disappearing to now being about defeating Cicada. Though she acts like she’s a petulant tween/teen, Show keeps telling me she’s an adult. Her giving in to her rage or anger or whatever is on her.

This stupid crisis isn’t supposed to happen for another four years, but they’re doing it next season for the crossover for... reasons.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 By this time she knows who Thawne is and how Barry feels about him. It’s only been a few days. 

I believe actually the present day timeline it's only been a matter of hours at most since Sherloque first revealed Nora's secret and Barry dumped her back in the future.  In the future for Nora, it's been minutes at the most since Barry dumped her back.  Wasn't Thawne down to like ten minutes when Barry talked to him?  

That means Nora went to Thawne basically as soon as she arrived back in the present and really, at that point her priority was about getting back and making things right with her dad (and still stopping Cicada) and while Papa Joe or Future Iris might be able to comfort her, they couldn't help her get back in time undetected (Which is apparently a thing Barry can now feel?  Still not sure how him being able to feel it stops her from using the Speedforce) 

I agree that Nora should not have used the Negative Speed Force but she was making this choice under a finite time line.  If she wanted any help from Thawne, she didn't have the option of waiting and weighing her options.  And since Nora probably believed her situation couldn't get worse, she took the risk. 

If Thawne really is manipulating her, it means probably he knew Barry would figure out and disown her, setting her up to be susceptible to the dark side.  Interesting that even as he made it happen, he begged Barry not to do this to Nora.  Barry predictably didn't listen in time.   

Edited April 28, 2019 by BkWurm1

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I couldn’t disagree more. Nora had a choice. And she chose to embrace or use the negative force to go back to the past.

Actually, I said that Nora had a choice and that she was wrong.  I'm just saying Barry was also wrong to act the way he did.  His actions drove her straight back to Thawne.  If he really didn't trust her, it would have been smarter to keep her closer to keep an eye on her.  Now look what happened.

[BeautifulFlower]

Why was Caitlin involved with the case at the hospital? There was literally no reason for her to have been there. She does not work for CCPD unlike Cisco. Also, she absolutely have no right to be looking at Grace's file or know anything about. I know this as a nursing student. There is an exception dealing with the law enforcement. But again, Caitlin doesn't work for CCPD and shouldn't have access to Grace's file.

[Trini]

Some of the writing/editing choices are just baffling. They were very unsubtly repeating the idea that Barry & Iris needed to reconcile and work together, with Iris getting that message from Ralph, Cecile, and Eobard(!); I just wish they had time for Barry to also have a talk with Joe since he was paired with him anyway. He's only the lead, ya know.

[Cekrypton1]

Clearly Thawn is shipping WestAllen becasue he needs their kid to escape. And if they break up in the past (our now) no Nora in the future (his now).

I love how everyone knows how to visit Thawne in chronological order. Every conversation people from the past are having with him follows the previous one. No one jumps to the future but before a conversation he has not already had. It's very nice of them and quite convenient for him.