Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

BAFTA nominations:

Original Score - John Williams
Sound - David Acord, Andy Nelson, Christopher Scarabosio, Stuart Wilson, Matthew Wood
Special Visual Effects - Roger Guyett, Paul Kavanagh, Neal Scanlan, Dominic Tuohy

Edited January 7, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Grammaeryn]

I really disliked this movie. It ranks as second worst of the live action movies for me - above Solo. I do like the new trio and was happy they went on a mission together in the beginning. My brother pointed out to me part of the whole hero’s journey is pulling away from family and friends to get ready for the next step but If they tried to demonstrate Rey doing that in the movie, I didn’t see it.  Everything felt really rushed and unplanned. New planet, new character I can barely get to know or care about, major plot or action, said plot/action getting reversed two scenes later. I did like that water planet with the broken Death Star. It was visually stunning. I knew Rey would be either related to Palpatine or Kenobi years ago so no big reveal there. I did get teary over Leia’s death. Adam Driver did a good job with what he was given.  Movies with the Mads podcast will tackle this next week.

[Frost]

On 12/22/2019 at 4:39 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Damn, Abrams killed Greg Grunberg's character!  I didn't know he would do in his buddy like that!  At least Dominic Monaghan is now here!

I really disliked both cameos, or stunt casting, or whatever you want to call it.  At this point, seeing Greg Grunberg in every JJ Abrams endeavor immediately jolts me out of whatever I'm watching.  I get it.  He's a friend and now it's a "thing."  To me, it's a ridiculous indulgence.  And Dominic Monaghan's face is unique and therefore jumps out at me more than a typical cameo would.  Again, it just jolted me out of the movie when he appeared.   A cameo shouldn't overshadow the scene they're in.  

[kokapetl]

I guess it’s not a Disney Star Wars movie without reshoots. There were plenty of things I didn’t like about this movie, but the biggest flaw is that the Empire/First Order have limitless resources. They secretly built hundreds/thousand of star destroyers with Death Star giant planet destroying cannon dicks. It ruins the end of Return of the Jedi, and it basically negates any Rebel wins. At the end we saw a scene where individual planets celebrate the destruction of their local star destroyer. We saw a similar scene at the end of Return of the Jedi (Special Edition). It’s all so fucked that those victories mean little in the grand scheme of things. 

[Spartan Girl]

The early script when the movie was being directed by Colin Trevarrow leaked

WE. WERE. ROBBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VCRTracking]

It definitely would have been different and you wouldn't hear complaints about rehashing. As imperfect as the final product was though, the best scene in TROS for me was the Han and Ben scene so I'm not lamenting over what might have been.

ETA: Realizing Tor Valum is basically the Sith Yoda and Rey and Poe would have been like Han and Leia in Empire so it's not that original.

Edited January 15, 2020 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

55 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The early script when the movie was being directed by Colin Trevarrow leaked

WE. WERE. ROBBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that is the actual script, I can't say anything about it impresses me.  It just magnifies the existing weaknesses of the previous films. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by benteen

[Zuleikha]

Yeah, once again, I feel a little confused by what the critics are seeing here. The influence of Trevorrow's structure on Abrams' final product is very clear. This doesn't seem like a wildly different movie in terms of its originality, concepts, or even fidelity to TLJ.

There are some ideas in Trevorrow's that I think could have been better depending on how they were fleshed out on screen (like if Rey really does end up creating something new with the Force), but I also think Abrams made some really great changes.

[scarynikki12]

I loved Rise but holy fuck that story sounds amazing. 

[Spartan Girl]

Not saying the final movie didn't have good moments, but I definitely prefer Rey not being related to anybody and for Kylo dying an unredeemed villain to that Reylo kiss crap.

[ShadowHunter]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

If that is the actual script, I can't say anything about it impresses me.  It just magnifies the existing weaknesses of the previous films. 

I agree. This is a drop better then what we got but that is not saying much.

[Perfect Xero]

To me Rey creating something new by using the dark side would be completely against everything I've always understood the force to be. The dark side is inherently destructive and toxic, you can't draw on it for the greater good, heck that's arguably the lesson of Anakin and possibly Dooku in the PT. The force is a healthy system and the dark side is a disease that is trying to devour that system. 

[Ravenya003]

34 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

To me Rey creating something new by using the dark side would be completely against everything I've always understood the force to be. The dark side is inherently destructive and toxic, you can't draw on it for the greater good, heck that's arguably the lesson of Anakin and possibly Dooku in the PT. The force is a healthy system and the dark side is a disease that is trying to devour that system. 

This franchise has always been impossibly contradictory as to whether the Dark Side is a corruption of the Force (like fallen angels becoming demons) or whether Light and Dark are two equal powers in perpetual balance (like yin-yang). Blame Lucas's mushing of Western religious beliefs with Eastern ideologies and everyone else trying to stick their oar in. It's like mixing oil and water.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ravenya003

[benteen]

On 1/7/2020 at 6:56 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

BAFTA nominations:

Original Score - John Williams
Sound - David Acord, Andy Nelson, Christopher Scarabosio, Stuart Wilson, Matthew Wood
Special Visual Effects - Roger Guyett, Paul Kavanagh, Neal Scanlan, Dominic Tuohy

I hate to admit this but I remember absolutely nothing about John Williams score in this movie (and I saw the movie twice) other than the familiar pieces.  The man is an absolute legend but on a whole, I was very disappointed with his sequel trilogy scores.

Edited January 16, 2020 by benteen

[Danny Franks]

I don't have much investment in the whole 'balancing the Force' thing. It doesn't really make sense to me, to say that an energy field based on the duality of light and dark should be balanced. The natural order of things would be two opposing forces, vying for supremacy. And it shouldn't be a fight that is winnable, because then you fall into the trap of 'what is light, if there's no dark to set it against?'

But I infinitely prefer the idea that Rey's parents were nobodies, and that she wasn't destined for anything. She created her own destiny, and defied anyone who tried to stop her. And this:

Quote

Force ghosts of Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan appear to try to save Ben, but he’s too far gone for that to work. There’s no redemption for him.

Yes please. I'm sick of the idea in Star Wars being that redemption has to happen at the end. Just because Vader had a crisis of conscience at the death? Even though it was helped by the Emperor openly telling Luke to kill his own father and replace him.

JJ and/or Disney got far too caught up in the 'romance' of Kylo Ren being redeemed, and in the incredibly creepy obsession he had with Rey somehow being worth endorsing. I don't know if Trevorrow was kicked off the project because his vision didn't line up with theirs, or for some other reason, but it looks like he might have written a better movie, albeit one with some silly elements that would need to be ironed out (Chewie flying an X-Wing? That's dumb. He wouldn't even fit).

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Quote

Force ghosts of Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan appear to try to save Ben, but he’s too far gone for that to work. There’s no redemption for him.

Yes please. I'm sick of the idea in Star Wars being that redemption has to happen at the end. Just because Vader had a crisis of conscience at the death? Even though it was helped by the Emperor openly telling Luke to kill his own father and replace him.

Ditto.  My friend rewatched TFA the other night and she texted me that she can't believe how many people make excuses for Kylo/Ben after he killed Han.  "Why does everyone keep feeling sorry for whiny murdering white boys?"  She doesn't care about his redemption and neither do I.  No matter how good that conversation with him and Ghost Han was.

[shireenbamfatheon]

38 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Ditto.  My friend rewatched TFA the other night and she texted me that she can't believe how many people make excuses for Kylo/Ben after he killed Han.  "Why does everyone keep feeling sorry for whiny murdering white boys?"  She doesn't care about his redemption and neither do I.  No matter how good that conversation with him and Ghost Han was.

Didn't he help his side blow up entire planets in that movie?

[Danny Franks]

51 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Ditto.  My friend rewatched TFA the other night and she texted me that she can't believe how many people make excuses for Kylo/Ben after he killed Han.  "Why does everyone keep feeling sorry for whiny murdering white boys?"  She doesn't care about his redemption and neither do I.  No matter how good that conversation with him and Ghost Han was.

Isn't that the current zeitgeist of cinema? Seems to be everywhere, from the schlockiest trash movies to Oscar nominated ones.

[Zuleikha]

JJ and/or Disney got far too caught up in the 'romance' of Kylo Ren being redeemed, and in the incredibly creepy obsession he had with Rey somehow being worth endorsing.

I felt that was more of a TLJ thing. I thought TFA ended very clearly with Rey repulsed by Kylo Ren and rejecting him. I also thought it clearly portrayed Ren's interest in Rey as creepy and unhealthy.

But then TLJ made Rey bizarrely receptive to Ren and the whole thing sexy. Ridley and Driver also have fantastic chemistry, which doesn't help. Sure, Rey slammed the door at the end when Ren stayed dark instead of coming to the light side, but a single scene at the end of the movie never undoes the visual power of the entire rest of the film.

So I saw the Reylo in TRoS as trying to keep that continuity with TLJ, clarify Rey's emotional stakes (in the possibility of Ben Solo rather than Kylo Ren as who he was), and give the message that it is never too late to repent and try to make amends. I thought it was important that it was Leia's love that ultimately brought Ben back to the light and not Rey's. I don't even think it's canon that Rey DID love Ben... I think she gave him acceptance and forgiveness, but I think it's ambiguous about whether there was anything stronger. 

I think the message is consistent with Ren's portrayal as trapped by his previously made bad choices and healthy (on the metaphorical level at least). In as much as I'm troubled by anything, it's the handwaving over Poe's (and sort of Rose and Finn's) responsibility for so many Resistance deaths with their mutiny. 

[VCRTracking]

I knew at the end of TFA there would be only two options for Kylo Ren's fate, redemption and death or he remains a villain to the end and Rey kills him. I dismissed the former because we'd already seen it with Vader and TLJ showed it was just not going to happen the same way. However the way they did it in TROS I liked a lot and now seeing the Trevorrow version(if it's real) much more surprising. I had already seen evil Supreme Leader Kylo at the Battle of Crait but Ben Solo was thrilling to watch, personally. 

[Ravenya003]

5 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Didn't he help his side blow up entire planets in that movie?

Also he ordered his troops to open fire on villagers on Jakku that clearly included children, even though he had what he wanted and they posed no threat to him. 

I just... if you're going to plan to redeem a character, then why have them commit crimes that are so heinous that only the usual White Dude Apologist Committee are capable of the mental gymnastics required to gloss over it all? The second he hacked Max von Sydow to death with his lightsabre I knew that he wasn't going to survive the trilogy because you DON'T come back from cold-blooded murder without having to pay with your own life.

And weirdly, the films seemed to consider Han's murder the worst thing he ever did. It really, really wasn't. 

On another note, it's interesting that Trevorrow's script has Kylo murdering Rey's parents, which is something I theorized on this thread way before the film opened. I wonder if that was his answer to the scene in Rey's vision in which Kylo and the Knights of Ren killed that man in the rain. It seemed important, and I imagined it was probably her father, though now it's just another dangling thread. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ravenya003

[shireenbamfatheon]

8 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

And weirdly, the films seemed to consider Han's murder the worst thing he ever did. It really, really wasn't. 

I think people in general have grown to have this strange obsession with redemption arcs for any remotely grey character to the point that even villains have their actions whitewashed by fans so they can fit them into the "morally complex" bubble, and thus make them redeemable, as long as said villain manages to look sad enough (and is usually white, male and straight). I know it was a thing before Game of Thrones, but it certainly helped popularize it with Jaime Lannister. Kylo Ren was a heinous character and a perfectly fine villain in TFA where him choosing the dark side should have been concluded. But then TLJ primarily centered the movie around its female heroine trying to help redeem the mass murderer who tortured her, tried to kill her, tried to kill her friend, gunned down an entire village, killed his own dad, and oh, help blow up entire planets, instead of focusing on her as a character as well as Finn and Poe.

This is something I complained about when TLJ came out. TFA was my introduction to Star Wars and I fell in love with the potential the new trio had; I'm a sucker for the found family trope. I watched the movie four times in the cinema despite having no previous investment in the SW Universe otherwise. Then the next movie came out and they not only split the trio apart but also made other characters the focus of their arcs (and I say that despite really liking Rose). There was so much they could have done, and I read dozen of fan fics that did a much better job at characterization and development. I wanted to see Finn adapting to no longer being a storm trooper and finding his place among the resistance. I wanted to see more of Poe and who he was outside of just his role in the war. And I wanted Rey to discover her own path and destiny without having to share screen time with Kylo every other minute. 

Instead they just turned the new trilogy into another Skywalker Saga and sidelines everyone to focus on the sad, white manbaby.

[dmeets]

2 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Didn't he help his side blow up entire planets in that movie?

I think his body count with that single act surpassed Vader's decades-long run. Which is why everytime I see someone post "Ben deserved better" on Facebook/Instagram (it's pretty much spam at this point), I want to scream. How he reached woobie status is mystifying to me and kind of makes me wish, talented as Adam Driver is, that they'd kept the mask on Kylo Ren for much longer than they did.

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, dmeets said:

How he reached woobie status is mystifying to me 

He was the white guy, that's why. People should stop acting surprised by this. 

[Bill1978]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

I hate to admit this but I remember absolutely nothing about John Williams score in this movie (and I saw the movie twice) other than the familiar pieces.  The man is an absolute legend but on a whole, I was very disappointed with his sequel trilogy scores.

I agree, I like the scores because they are full on orchestral and not the standard minimalist electronic melodyless soundscape that so many movies have these days BUT in terms of memorable themes he didn't make many. Except for Rey's Theme I can't hum anything from the new Trilogy. I would have loved more clear themes for Kylo and possibly the Trio. A similar thing happened with the Prequel Trilogy. Only Anakin got a orchestral suite of a theme. Not saying Duel of the Fates, Across The Stars of Battle of the Heroes aren't great but they really don't serve the leif motif approach of the Original Trilogy.  I can listen to the scores of the OT and follow the onscreen story. Sadly I can't do that with the PT and ST scores.

[Ravenya003]

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

This is something I complained about when TLJ came out. TFA was my introduction to Star Wars and I fell in love with the potential the new trio had; I'm a sucker for the found family trope. I watched the movie four times in the cinema despite having no previous investment in the SW Universe otherwise.

This was my experience as well! I had watched the OT as a kid, but had no real emotional connection to it, until TFA came out and suddenly I was a mega-fan. I went back and watched the OT and PT, I tracked down The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, I loved Rogue One... and then TLJ happened and it was like cold water getting poured over me. And then I COULD have learned to love that movie if TROS had actually committed to the plot-points it made: namely that Rey was a nobody and Kylo had definitely chosen the Dark Side, but of course these are immediately walked back again. From a plot perspective, TLJ has no real value, and you can skip it completely without losing anything except the particulars of Luke's death. 

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I think people in general have grown to have this strange obsession with redemption arcs for any remotely grey character to the point that even villains have their actions whitewashed by fans so they can fit them into the "morally complex" bubble, and thus make them redeemable, as long as said villain manages to look sad enough (and is usually white, male and straight). I know it was a thing before Game of Thrones, but it certainly helped popularize it with Jaime Lannister.

It's definitely been around longer than this: my first run-in with white male "himpathy" came with the BBC's Robin Hood about ten years ago: Guy of Gisbourne was played by Richard Armitage (white? check. brooding? check. handsome? check) who was also creepily obsessed with Maid Marian and ends up STABBING HER TO DEATH when she finally has enough of his bullshit and tells him she loves Robin Hood. The reaction from fandom was that she was a cruel stupid bitch who should have married poor sad Guy when she had the chance. This was my first fandom, and seeing where the audience's sympathy lay was pretty disconcerting. (And yes, he eventually gets a redemption arc).

And I remember being SO EXCITED when Rey snatched the lightsabre from Kylo in TFA and proceeded to beat the snot out of him with it. Because after Snape and Loki and Moriarty, I thought finally - FINALLY! - we would get a story where the white dude really isn't worth redeeming, and the future belongs to teenage girls and black Stormtroopers and Latino X-fighter pilots.

But nope, it's just white dude redemption arc #578,984,089, and everyone else gets shortchanged in service of that. (I mean, we could have had Finn organize a Stormtrooper uprising, working under the assumption that if he could break his conditioning, so could others. How cool would that have been, PLUS something that's never happened in a Star Wars film before. Instead SO MUCH real estate is wasted on Kylo Ren, when the two directors were clearly at odds about who he was and whether redemption was on the table - because you can bet your ass it wouldn't have happened if Johnson had directed 9).

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ravenya003

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, dmeets said:

I think his body count with that single act surpassed Vader's decades-long run. Which is why everytime I see someone post "Ben deserved better" on Facebook/Instagram (it's pretty much spam at this point), I want to scream. How he reached woobie status is mystifying to me and kind of makes me wish, talented as Adam Driver is, that they'd kept the mask on Kylo Ren for much longer than they did.

You forget Vader helped the Empire with the construction of the Death Star.

3 hours ago, ursula said:

He was the white guy, that's why. People should stop acting surprised by this. 

I think it's more than that. I think a certain amount of viewers probably had shitty childhoods and can identify with Kylo Ren. Even if they weren't that terrible they still feel resentment towards them.. I'm sure a lot of people here have great relationships with their parents but aren't there a few who didn't blame them for a lot wrong with their lives? Even just a little? Hell Carrie Fisher felt that way about her mother Debbie Reynolds and was distant from her for years. A lot of Loki fans hate Odin and Tony Stark fans really hate Howard. You'd be surprised how many Kylo Ren fans blame Han and Leia just as Han and Leia fans think Kylo was a spoiled brat who betrayed his loving parents. I have no doubt Leia and Han deeply loved their son but I also can easily believe Han would have trouble being a stay-at-home dad and that Leia would be too busy rebuilding the Republic leaving young Ben to fall prey to influence of Palpatine. The guilt they both feel in TFA didn't come from nowhere.

I just think you can't look at the movies in a real world way. The only way to really look at it is metaphorically.  If you see Vader and Ren's redemption as asking the viewers to forgive mass murderers then it's terrible. If you look at it as a metaphor for parents(Vader, Han and Leia) sacrificing their lives to save their children, it's beautiful. Ben Solo's arc is basically Beautiful Boy with Timothy Chalamee and Steve Carell but with drugs instead of the Dark Side.

As to who should have been the main villain of the sequel trilogy, Kylo or Palpatine, it all depends on what you think is really ruining the world, the old in power who are clinging to an outdated status quo or the young who are under their influence and misguided.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by VCRTracking

[ursula]

22 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I think a certain amount of viewers probably had shitty childhoods and can identify with Kylo Ren.

Finn has a shitty childhood too. Funny how people forget that.
And how like real life that there are all sorts of poetic reasons why the dangerous  white boy is ‘troubled’ and sympathetic.

Quote

Loki

is a white guy

Quote

Tony Stark

is a white guy. Also not a villain but the point still stands.

Quote

Beautiful Boy with Timothy Chalamee and Steve Carell

is the quintessential pretty white boy. 🤣🤣

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by ursula

[Zuleikha]

I was under the impression that many fans do ship Finn and Rey and that the main reason there aren't more is that people were too busy shipping Finn with Poe. 

In any event, Kylo Ren is a classic Beast for a Beauty and the Beast type of relationship. I don't know why anyone is still surprised by the popularity of this arechetype. I'm no fan of it, including the original fairy tale and Disney's spin on it, but I get that it's a thing. Kylo Ren isn't joyously evil... he's TORTURED by his evil. That's catnip for many viewers. (and in true confession, while I'm generally not a fan of that type of relationship, I have certainly loved some specific instances of this in the past.)

 If you look at it as a metaphor for parents(Vader, Han and Leia) sacrificing their lives to save their children, it's beautiful.

This! No actual people were murdered to create Kylo Ren's story. The atrocities he committed in the film are symbolic signposts of his despair and struggles. Not caring about them is just about viewing the symbolic realm of the story as more important than judging a work of fiction by real life morality.

I mean, we could have had Finn organize a Stormtrooper uprising, working under the assumption that if he could break his conditioning, so could others.

I 100% expected to see this in TLJ and was so disappointed that instead we got Rose showing Finn that the First Order does evil, oppressive things... as though Finn didn't already freaking know that. It's part of why I like the Jannah/Finn dynamic so much better. 

My impression is that the production schedule on TRoS was really rushed. If JJ had had more time to breathe into it, I wonder whether he would have cut down some of the MacGuffin chasing stuff in the beginning and done more with Finn/Jannah/First Order and Rey/Kylo/Exogel at the end. I did like the movie, but there are a lot of storylines that feel almost-but-not-fully-there.

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

 

I felt that was more of a TLJ thing. I thought TFA ended very clearly with Rey repulsed by Kylo Ren and rejecting him. I also thought it clearly portrayed Ren's interest in Rey as creepy and unhealthy.

But then TLJ made Rey bizarrely receptive to Ren and the whole thing sexy. Ridley and Driver also have fantastic chemistry, which doesn't help. Sure, Rey slammed the door at the end when Ren stayed dark instead of coming to the light side, but a single scene at the end of the movie never undoes the visual power of the entire rest of the film.

So I saw the Reylo in TRoS as trying to keep that continuity with TLJ, clarify Rey's emotional stakes (in the possibility of Ben Solo rather than Kylo Ren as who he was), and give the message that it is never too late to repent and try to make amends. I thought it was important that it was Leia's love that ultimately brought Ben back to the light and not Rey's. I don't even think it's canon that Rey DID love Ben... I think she gave him acceptance and forgiveness, but I think it's ambiguous about whether there was anything stronger. 

I've outlined my interpretation of TLJ several times, so I don't want to go into full detail again, but my reading of it is that Rian Johnson was deliberately drawing a parallel to unhealthy dating attitudes in modern media by having Kylo Ren stalk, harass, manipulate and gaslight Rey throughout the movie, and having her be oddly receptive to it because she was in a vulnerable position.

But I don't think it was romantic on her end, to begin with. She wanted someone else to be the hero. She went looking for Luke so he'd do it, then when he rejected the idea, here's 'Ben' explaining how he's been misunderstood and unfairly maligned. And she falls for it.

But by the end he's shown his true colours and she has closed the door very firmly. It looks like Trevorrow's script took up that beat, and continued with Kylo Ren as the villain he'd been built up to be in TLJ - more complex than Vader was, but still an enthusiastic villain.

JJ and Disney called that shot back, and gave him the redemption arc. And they did it at least partly because of his popularity with oddly intersecting subsets of fans - swoony fangirls who wanted the attractive white guy to get the girl and angry, misogynist males who hated the idea of girls and brown people as the heroes of their fantasy movies.

10 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

I just... if you're going to plan to redeem a character, then why have them commit crimes that are so heinous that only the usual White Dude Apologist Committee are capable of the mental gymnastics required to gloss over it all? The second he hacked Max von Sydow to death with his lightsabre I knew that he wasn't going to survive the trilogy because you DON'T come back from cold-blooded murder without having to pay with your own life.

And weirdly, the films seemed to consider Han's murder the worst thing he ever did. It really, really wasn't. 

On another note, it's interesting that Trevorrow's script has Kylo murdering Rey's parents, which is something I theorized on this thread way before the film opened. I wonder if that was his answer to the scene in Rey's vision in which Kylo and the Knights of Ren killed that man in the rain. It seemed important, and I imagined it was probably her father, though now it's just another dangling thread. 

The White Dude Apologist Committee will jump through any mental hoops they need to, to give their guy an out. I just wish Disney hadn't endorsed their views by doing the same thing - despite all Kylo Ren has done, he gets his ghost dad (who he killed) telling him, 'hey, it's fine, son. You got stabbed too, so we're even' and then he gets a personality transplant (really not sure how this works) and becomes a character we've never seen in the trilogy, just so he can save Rey, get the kiss and die a hero.

I guess JJ's concession to not fully encouraging this was the fact that he is forgotten, as soon as he disappears. I like to imagine Rey was relieved, and I like the interpretation someone suggested (can't remember who, sorry) that she was just expressing gratitude for his help. But he doesn't get to be remembered at the end.

10 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

This is something I complained about when TLJ came out. TFA was my introduction to Star Wars and I fell in love with the potential the new trio had; I'm a sucker for the found family trope. I watched the movie four times in the cinema despite having no previous investment in the SW Universe otherwise. Then the next movie came out and they not only split the trio apart but also made other characters the focus of their arcs (and I say that despite really liking Rose). There was so much they could have done, and I read dozen of fan fics that did a much better job at characterization and development. I wanted to see Finn adapting to no longer being a storm trooper and finding his place among the resistance. I wanted to see more of Poe and who he was outside of just his role in the war. And I wanted Rey to discover her own path and destiny without having to share screen time with Kylo every other minute. 

This was definitely a reflection of modern entertainment's obsession with villains, and being determined to flesh them out and justify them more than the heroes. I don't know quite where it came from, and I'm not saying I want villains to be cartoonish caricatures of evil, but I'd much rather have seen at least a third of Kylo Ren's screen time go to Finn and Poe.

I'd have been quite happy if, after killing Han, we never saw Kylo Ren's face again. To me, that was the moment of no return, and it wasn't just because Han was an iconic, loved character. He murdered his father in cold blood, simply because his master told him to. 

But in a media environment where serial killers, abusers of women, stalkers and manipulators are 'sexy' and 'cool' maybe I expected far too much.

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I've outlined my interpretation of TLJ several times, so I don't want to go into full detail again, but my reading of it is that Rian Johnson was deliberately drawing a parallel to unhealthy dating attitudes in modern media by having Kylo Ren stalk, harass, manipulate and gaslight Rey throughout the movie, and having her be oddly receptive to it because she was in a vulnerable position.

But I don't think it was romantic on her end, to begin with. She wanted someone else to be the hero. She went looking for Luke so he'd do it, then when he rejected the idea, here's 'Ben' explaining how he's been misunderstood and unfairly maligned. And she falls for it.

But by the end he's shown his true colours and she has closed the door very firmly. It looks like Trevorrow's script took up that beat, and continued with Kylo Ren as the villain he'd been built up to be in TLJ - more complex than Vader was, but still an enthusiastic villain.

JJ and Disney called that shot back, and gave him the redemption arc. And they did it at least partly because of his popularity with oddly intersecting subsets of fans - swoony fangirls who wanted the attractive white guy to get the girl and angry, misogynist males who hated the idea of girls and brown people as the heroes of their fantasy movies.

The White Dude Apologist Committee will jump through any mental hoops they need to, to give their guy an out. I just wish Disney hadn't endorsed their views by doing the same thing - despite all Kylo Ren has done, he gets his ghost dad (who he killed) telling him, 'hey, it's fine, son. You got stabbed too, so we're even' and then he gets a personality transplant (really not sure how this works) and becomes a character we've never seen in the trilogy, just so he can save Rey, get the kiss and die a hero.

I guess JJ's concession to not fully encouraging this was the fact that he is forgotten, as soon as he disappears. I like to imagine Rey was relieved, and I like the interpretation someone suggested (can't remember who, sorry) that she was just expressing gratitude for his help. But he doesn't get to be remembered at the end.

This was definitely a reflection of modern entertainment's obsession with villains, and being determined to flesh them out and justify them more than the heroes. I don't know quite where it came from, and I'm not saying I want villains to be cartoonish caricatures of evil, but I'd much rather have seen at least a third of Kylo Ren's screen time go to Finn and Poe.

I'd have been quite happy if, after killing Han, we never saw Kylo Ren's face again. To me, that was the moment of no return, and it wasn't just because Han was an iconic, loved character. He murdered his father in cold blood, simply because his master told him to. 

But in a media environment where serial killers, abusers of women, stalkers and manipulators are 'sexy' and 'cool' maybe I expected far too much.

I don't know I thought that myself but, every time I've seen Reylo come up in interviews and panels with Rian he's always played into the sexy, romantic interpretations. Maybe he's called it out as toxic gaslighting and I missed it, but he regularly seems happy that people want to see them as a couple. Which leads me to think his intent might be more tragic star crossed romance between two people on different sides than Kylo taking advantage of Rey.

[Ravenya003]

This is a long one, I promise to give it a rest after this!

Everyone brings their own perspective, baggage and personal history to these films. Heck - ANY story we read, hear or watch will be absorbed in a different way by each individual. 

For me personally, I'm simply tired of being asked to care about cruel, violent people who commit murder, and in this current climate, a villain who belonged to an organization seeped in Nazi imagery, who murdered all his classmates while they were at school, and who repeatedly assaulted a much younger girl in the midst of the real world's #timesup movement, just hit WAAAAAY too close to home. 

Obviously not everyone felt the same (and that's fine, it's just fiction!) but after TFA I honestly thought these films were doing something incredibly clever in depicting the true nature of evil: it's not grand and awe-inspiring like Vader, it's just whiny privileged self-absorption that thinks the world owes it everything. Evil - REAL evil - is banal and pathetic.

But my initial interpretation was clearly not one that was ultimately supported by the writing - we were, apparently, meant to see Kylo as a victim. 

6 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

No actual people were murdered to create Kylo Ren's story. The atrocities he committed in the film are symbolic signposts of his despair and struggles. Not caring about them is just about viewing the symbolic realm of the story as more important than judging a work of fiction by real life morality.

The thing is, I don't want to see HIS victims as nobodies who exist only as symbols of their murderer's internal rage and suffering. 

I mean, I CARED about Max von Sydow's character. I was charmed by the way he said of Leia: "she'll always be a princess to me." I was impressed by the way he stared death in the face and didn't flinch when Kylo murdered him. (And apparently, the original plan was for this character to be Wedge Antilles!)

I cared about Korr Sella (Amaya from Legends of Tomorrow!) Leia's aide who gets sent to Hosnian Prime, and I felt her fear and horror as she stared at incoming death while others screamed and panicked around her, unable to do anything but wait for the inevitable. I cared about Rose's sister who clutches her half of the necklace as she blows herself up for the greater good. 

I cared about the terrified nameless rebel soldiers in Rogue One who nevertheless held their ground against DARTH FUCKING VADER just to buy their comrades a few precious seconds to get the Death Star plans to safety so they could save countless lives. I even cared about the "many Bothans who died to bring us this information", due to the sad, venerable way Mon Mothma speaks of them. 

And fine, some people don't care about any of those people. About a year ago I saw a Tumblr post that argued Kylo's participation in the genocide of all those planets shouldn't get in the way of his redemption because we didn't know any of the people on those planets, so who cares? A million lives is a statistic and all that, especially in a made-up story. 

But what's the point of having people (even fictional ones) die tragically if we're not supposed to care about it? If people are going around saying "Ben Solo deserved better!" like he's an ACTUAL person, then my only response is: "Yeah, you know who else deserved better? All the people he killed." I just wish films would stop trying to have it both ways: for a villain to murder scores of innocent people to demonstrate how "evil" he is, and then expect the audience to root for their redemption anyway.  

(There's been so much debate in the last few years as to why Prince Zuko's arc in Avatar the Last Airbender is considered the absolute BEST redemption arc of all time, and a huge part of that is that he doesn't murder anyone. He had a sense of honour and purpose and integrity (even at the beginning of his story) that Kylo couldn't DREAM of possessing, and despite all his bad deeds, he never crosses the line into taking someone else's life. Can you imagine Kylo risking his life to save Hux? Because Zuko does that for his own Hux in the very first season). 

I don't want to dislike TROS, and in time I might be reconciled to the choices it makes regarding Kylo Ren. I mean let's face it, ultimately the guy DID run out of second chances. If he had gone with Han in TFA, he would have been fine. If he had gone with Rey in TLJ, Leia would have found a way to protect him. But he didn't, and by TROS he's lost the chance to go home: the only option he has left is to die as Ben Solo. 

And despite the muddle of themes and motivations in these films, there is one thoroughfare that I appreciate: in TFA Kylo spots Luke/Anakin's lightsabre and petulantly shouts: "that belongs to me!" and then is visibly shocked when it nearly whacks him in the face on its way to Rey, its rightful owner. In TLJ he tries to undermine her by saying: "you're nothing, you're no one. You have no place in this story." There's a sense here that somewhere deep down, he knows he's not as important as he thinks he is.

And then finally, his redemption hinges upon the fact he finally realizes that Rey's life is more important than his, that she (on a meta level) is the main character, not him. They're not "yin-yang", they're not "the Force in balance", they're a person who deserves a second chance, and a person who has wasted all of his, and so the ONLY good thing Kylo/Ben EVER does in his life is finally put his narcissism aside and die so that she can live. The bad guy eventually understands that this girl can and should exist outside of their messed-up relationship, and so gives her that opportunity.

I... don't hate that?

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

JJ and Disney called that shot back, and gave him the redemption arc. And they did it at least partly because of his popularity with oddly intersecting subsets of fans - swoony fangirls who wanted the attractive white guy to get the girl and angry, misogynist males who hated the idea of girls and brown people as the heroes of their fantasy movies.

I mean, if it's any consolation, those misogynists and fangirls are STILL furious, because the final word in this trilogy is that Rey is the protagonist, the true Skywalker heir, the saviour of the galaxy, even though they've spent the last four years convincing themselves that this whole thing was Kylo's story, that he was the main character, and that Rey was only his life coach/emotional support/"prize" for his redemption. That this isn't the case clearly does not compute with them.

They're still doing mental gymnastics trying to reconcile what they thought was going to happen (Ben and Rey living happily ever after, uniting both sides of the Force, raising the next generation of Jedi) with the reality of what HER story actually conveys: that she doesn't need him; she never did.

She's nineteen years old and she's gonna be fine. She's the one that gets to grow up, and find more friends, and fall in love, and have children, and travel the galaxy and have as many adventures as she likes. She has a clean slate and a found family that loves her and permanent freedom from the Force-bond that I assume was what kept compelling her to return to Kylo. 

And on THAT subject, my friend had an interesting theory: that the Dyad-Force-Whatever was imposed upon Kylo and Rey to ensure a favourable outcome for Rey - the Force KNEW that she would at some point have to face Palpatine, and that she wouldn't survive the experience. She would need someone of equal power to be invested enough in her safety that he would literally give up his own life to save hers, which is exactly what happened. 

So Kylo is redeemed for the sole purpose of saving Rey's life. His entire purpose in life (and this story) is to basically be the life insurance that the Force took out for Rey. It was never about him! Again, I don't hate that. The more I think about it, the more I kinda love it.

And I'm not saying that Finn wasn't EXTREMELY ill-served from the moment Kylo knocked him out so the focus could switch to Rey/Kylo as the main protagonist/antagonist, but he's alive, he's Force Sensitive, he gets to spend the rest of his life with the no-longer-distracted girl and hot X-wing pilot he adores, and I really, really hope that one day John Boyega will return in some capacity for the story his character deserves. 

Whew, okay I'll shut up now. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Ravenya003

[benteen]

18 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I agree, I like the scores because they are full on orchestral and not the standard minimalist electronic melodyless soundscape that so many movies have these days BUT in terms of memorable themes he didn't make many. Except for Rey's Theme I can't hum anything from the new Trilogy. I would have loved more clear themes for Kylo and possibly the Trio. A similar thing happened with the Prequel Trilogy. Only Anakin got a orchestral suite of a theme. Not saying Duel of the Fates, Across The Stars of Battle of the Heroes aren't great but they really don't serve the leif motif approach of the Original Trilogy.  I can listen to the scores of the OT and follow the onscreen story. Sadly I can't do that with the PT and ST scores.

The theme played at the end of TFA, where Rey finds Luke, is tremendous.  But yeah, the first six movies have multiple pieces in their score that are memorable.  I don't think I can add up on one hand the number of memorable pieces in the scores for these three movies.

[ursula]

6 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

after TFA I honestly thought these films were doing something incredibly clever in depicting the true nature of evil: it's not grand and awe-inspiring like Vader, it's just whiny privileged self-absorption that thinks the world owes it everything. Evil - REAL evil - is banal and pathetic.

^This! This is exactly what I left the TFA screening with.

I like your take. It makes the ST seem more better than it deserves to.

[Zuleikha]

Quote

after TFA I honestly thought these films were doing something incredibly clever in depicting the true nature of evil: it's not grand and awe-inspiring like Vader, it's just whiny privileged self-absorption that thinks the world owes it everything. Evil - REAL evil - is banal and pathetic.

  I don't think we'll ever know how Abrams hoped the story he started in TFA would be developed. Everyone is too professional to get that explicit (I think!). But I wouldn't be surprised if this was exactly his intention, and it was a fairly common way of seeing Kylo Ren (hence the popularity of the emo Kylo Ren Twitter). I definitely shared that interpretation, too.

I suppose we do know from Adam Driver's hints that some form of redemption was always expected for Ben, but I don't think Abrams had any plans of it being through Reylo. I think he expected it to be through Han and Leia (and maybe Luke), letting Kylo Ren know it was never too late to metaphorically come home. 

Quote

The thing is, I don't want to see HIS victims as nobodies who exist only as symbols of their murderer's internal rage and suffering.

In case it wasn't clear, I don't mean that Ren's victims are nobodies within the context of the fictional universe. I meant that they are literally not actual people, as in this is a fictional story. One of the things that's been interesting for me in all of the sequel trilogy discussions is seeing the very different ways we all respond to fiction. And there's no wrong or right with this--there's simply what's personally satisfying. 

But I do think it's important to acknowledge that Kylo Ren fans are probably not actually arguing that murder is no big deal but rather that they're responding to the symbolic journey.

Even the Ben Solo-deserved-better people, IMHO, aren't handwaving away massacres... they're seeing Ben as a child who was abused and manipulated into doing horrible things that he didn't want to do and who never had a chance to live independently.

That's why I'm personally more bothered by the handwaving of Poe's mutiny than I am the Bendemption. I get how Kylo Ren's story can function on metaphorical level for people who have hurt friends/family members because of potentially forgivable things (e.g. addiction, unrealized neglect), so I can respond to it symbolically. But I don't get how Poe's story functioned that way, and so I can only respond to its literal level.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Zuleikha

[Anduin]

On 1/17/2020 at 3:59 AM, shireenbamfatheon said:

This is something I complained about when TLJ came out. TFA was my introduction to Star Wars and I fell in love with the potential the new trio had; I'm a sucker for the found family trope. I watched the movie four times in the cinema despite having no previous investment in the SW Universe otherwise. Then the next movie came out and they not only split the trio apart but also made other characters the focus of their arcs (and I say that despite really liking Rose). There was so much they could have done, and I read dozen of fan fics that did a much better job at characterization and development. I wanted to see Finn adapting to no longer being a storm trooper and finding his place among the resistance. I wanted to see more of Poe and who he was outside of just his role in the war. And I wanted Rey to discover her own path and destiny without having to share screen time with Kylo every other minute. 
 

FWIW, Star Wars fans have a long history of being disappointed by Star Wars. "I don't like this ESB, it's weird, dark, and ends on a cliffhanger." "What's with these stone-age teddy bears?" "Two more teddy bear movies." "Han shot first, and why is Jabba back in the movie?" Okay, the ESB SE was all right. "Why is this ridulous CG song and dance wedged in here?" "Wait, Anakin is 9 and he's paired with a ridiculous alien." "The two people in this love story have absolutely no chemistry at all." "Why does a murderous droid have a cough? George Lucas is entirely in love with CG." "Great, three episodes of a cartoon stuck together and shoved into the cinema." "It's pretty much a remake of ANH." And pretty much everything about TLJ.

Let's not get into the EU. Save my sanity.

Being let down by Star Wars is an essential part of the experience. Congratulations, you're a fan. 🙂

[VCRTracking]

When I look at the entire sequel trilogy as a whole now I think it's okay, but the story it told was told better by Fury Road and all in one movie. Immortan Joe was a villain from the beginning, not just showing up in the third act and Nux was easier to sympathize with than Kylo Ren.

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

When I look at the entire sequel trilogy as a whole now I think it's okay, but the story it told was told better by Fury Road and all in one movie. Immortan Joe was a villain from the beginning, not just showing up in the third act and Nux was easier to sympathize with than Kylo Ren.

True, true. As much as I love Star Wars as a whole, Fury Road is my all-time favourite movie.

[katha]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:44 PM, Zuleikha said:

  I don't think we'll ever know how Abrams hoped the story he started in TFA would be developed. Everyone is too professional to get that explicit (I think!). But I wouldn't be surprised if this was exactly his intention, and it was a fairly common way of seeing Kylo Ren (hence the popularity of the emo Kylo Ren Twitter). I definitely shared that interpretation, too.

I suppose we do know from Adam Driver's hints that some form of redemption was always expected for Ben, but I don't think Abrams had any plans of it being through Reylo. I think he expected it to be through Han and Leia (and maybe Luke), letting Kylo Ren know it was never too late to metaphorically come home. 

In case it wasn't clear, I don't mean that Ren's victims are nobodies within the context of the fictional universe. I meant that they are literally not actual people, as in this is a fictional story. One of the things that's been interesting for me in all of the sequel trilogy discussions is seeing the very different ways we all respond to fiction. And there's no wrong or right with this--there's simply what's personally satisfying. 

But I do think it's important to acknowledge that Kylo Ren fans are probably not actually arguing that murder is no big deal but rather that they're responding to the symbolic journey.

Even the Ben Solo-deserved-better people, IMHO, aren't handwaving away massacres... they're seeing Ben as a child who was abused and manipulated into doing horrible things that he didn't want to do and who never had a chance to live independently.

That's why I'm personally more bothered by the handwaving of Poe's mutiny than I am the Bendemption. I get how Kylo Ren's story can function on metaphorical level for people who have hurt friends/family members because of potentially forgivable things (e.g. addiction, unrealized neglect), so I can respond to it symbolically. But I don't get how Poe's story functioned that way, and so I can only respond to its literal level.

Abrams said after TFA that Kylo Ren immediately regrets killing Han Solo. Which I thought was a very good character beat and very interesting regarding potential development. So, for all their differences, I think both Johnson and Abrams planned some sort of redemption arc. They probably had other ideas in how to get there. And yeah, Driver basically hinted that something in that direction was outlined to him from the moment he was signed. 

So, in the end, I don't think Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is the problem. I've said that already, but I think his arc makes perfect sense and is very well acted. TROS basically reaffirmed that he was manipulated/emotionally abused by Snoke/Palpatine since he was a kid. And his parents, because there was a war and because they wanted to protect him, perhaps made wrong parenting decisions. As all parents do, no matter how much you love your child, sometimes you get things wrong. But all of that doesn't negate his horrible choices. And I don't think the movies ever imply that. I also don't think that Kylo/Ben ever thinks that. 

At the end of the day, Kylo/Ben understands that Snoke/Palpatine were only using him and that he will never find peace on the dark side. And Han, Leia and Rey repeatedly go to bat for him and try to get him back...not because it's personally advantageous for them, but because they care. And I think that makes the difference for him. He's convinced himself that he's been abandoned/The Dark Side has told him that he's been abandoned, but he finally sees that this isn't the case. Han and Leia literally lay down their lives for him. He's been searching for peace of mind and he finally gets it at the end. And he knows that his awful choices can only end in death and isn't even that upset because he has peace now. This is pretty complex, but remarkably well done in the movies IMO. It's also a very all-encompassing take on forgiveness/redemption, saying that it isn't earned/deserved, but that making the choice to turn your back on evil is already the most important step. Which is consistent with what was done with Darth Vader. Not everyone will agree on that, but IMO it's pretty consistent with Star Wars lore.

The fans of that character/shippers etc. probably respond to that and that's okay. It's a pretty gothic set-up and not all that unusual. They probably also get extra defensive because the usual misogynist "Stupid girls need to be told what they are allowed to like" brigade comes in and they are angry that people think they are so hare-brained they can't separate reality from fiction and advocate for mass murder because they like a fictional character. At the same time, lashing out in anger never helps and only leads to even more fan wars. The ones who are bitter that there wasn't a fairy tale ending IMO also are confused about genre. 

I do think that quite a bit of that wasn't fully realized in the writing, but something that Driver made work to ensure that his character's actions made sense. Particularly in TROS, he creates a whole character arc without words. So, as everything in that series, it's all a bit half-baked. But I really think that whole storyline held together very well. I also don't think that Kylo Ren/Ben Solo got all that much screentime, honestly. Probably less than Rey, Finn and Poe. What happened is that the material he got was more interesting than some of the stuff the other characters were saddled with.

And I do think this is where the problem comes in: Rey got some writing that worked, and some aimless BS. Finn got some good stuff and then some flailing around where they didn't seem to know which direction they wanted to take with him. Poe's whole arc in TLJ was a total bust IMO and for me really damaged the character in the process. I just think the writing weaknesses throughout the trilogy really caught up with them and there's a feeling of frustration that there was more potential that wasn't realized. Most of TROS seemed like random characters spouting exposition. It was stupid.

Edited January 19, 2020 by katha

[raven]

On 1/15/2020 at 4:12 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I loved Rise but holy fuck that story sounds amazing. 

The concept art is pretty damn cool.

 

 

 

[Lantern7]

In case you're one of the five people who haven't seen this yet:

 

[VCRTracking]

On 1/26/2020 at 11:34 AM, Lantern7 said:

In case you're one of the five people who haven't seen this yet:

 

Liked seeing another Undercover Boss though of course the first one was better. Taran Killam and Bobby Moynihan were behind the original and it's clear what Star Wars fanboys they were.

Colin Trevorrow Confirms Leaked Script, Plus Concept Art

It's funny, Rey fans who hate her being a Palpatine love her in the Luke in ROTJ black outfit in the leaked art("She looks so badass!") even though Luke wearing it was him superficially embracing the darkness within after learning his horrible heritage.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Emily Thrace]

On 1/16/2020 at 2:39 PM, ursula said:

He was the white guy, that's why. People should stop acting surprised by this. 

Ben Solo being the son of Han and Leia and one of the strongest ties to the original trio probably had a lot to do with people investing in the character too though. It felt like a waste to me because I wanted to see him interact with Chewie again and walk back on to the Falcon. I think the question of what the rebels would do with him and how he would redeem himself were interesting questions and Abrams copped out by killing him off rather than answer those questions. While the character undoubtedly benefited from his privilege there was definitely an indication that he was manipulated by Snoke from a very young age not unlike former Storm troopers like Finn. Plus Adam Driver gave a very solid performance that was designed to make you sympathize with the character. I think its dismissive to say that people only like the character due to his race. You may not like the character but I think the reasons many people do are valid.

[ICantDoThatDave]

Redemption arcs only work for lovable scamps or scruffy-looking scoundrels.  You can't have redemption for genocidal mass murderers whose least offensive crimes are patricide, torture, & mild property damage..

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Redemption arcs only work for lovable scamps or scruffy-looking scoundrels.  You can't have redemption for genocidal mass murderers whose least offensive crimes are patricide, torture, & mild property damage..

Eh I've seen characters who've done far worse have redemption arcs and fans accepted them. Anyway I wouldnt even call Ben a typical redemption arc, but the "Prodigal Son returns" story. I choose to believe Han and Leia gave their lives to bring their lost son back to the light and it worked.

I get why some people hate Kylo Ren because to them he represents a particular annoying and hateful type of personality we see today. Someone we recognize in our lives and it would have been cathartic if Rey defeated and destroyed him.

[Ravenya003]

I think anyone can have a redemption arc, but the amount of work that goes into it has to be proportionate to the amount of harm that person does in their lifetime. 

So if you're just a bit of a jerk, like Mr Darcy, Han Solo, Steve Harrington (Stranger Things) or the Beast from Disney, then you can get your shit together in the space of a movie or season of television.

People like Eleanor Shellstrop and Prince Zuko need a bit more work since they're incredibly selfish and toxic people to start with and have really hurt a lot of people. They have to WORK for their redemption by acknowledging the pain they've caused and putting in the hard yards to atone for it. 

Once you get to murderers, things get much harder, as most writers either end up downplaying their crimes or trying to justify them by claiming "bad childhood" or "outside their control". This leads to a spectrum of redemption arcs that can be either good or bad.

So you've got Angel who sadistically killed thousands of people - but it was a soulless demon that was really responsible, and once he gets his soul back he uses his immortality to atone. Or Faith from the same show, who kills two men, one accidentally and one in cold blood... but eventually goes willingly to prison for her crimes. 

Bucky Barnes is off the hook because he was clearly a brainwashed victim himself, but the likes of Vader and Kylo Ren have to die immediately after their redemption because their monstrous actions are too horrific to properly quantify. Had they lived, the good guys would have been totally justified in executing them for war crimes, because the excuse "an old man manipulated me into doing it" just doesn't cut it. They had free will in a way that Bucky didn't, and made the wrong choices. 

And the worst possible scenarios involve characters like Regina, an unrepentant rapist and murderer whose victims have to coddle and forgive her endless self-pitying bullshit until she's crowned Queen of Everything in the desperate hope she'll finally stop complaining about how hard her life has been to people whose suffering matches or even outweighs her own (and in many cases, was CAUSED by her). 

Basically, the redemption arc must fit the crimes, which is why "redemption equals death" is such a prevalent trope - because a lot of writers go too hard with the "villainy" side of things, and then can't see any other realistic ending for their characters but life in prison should they survive. 

Edit: and ursula is right in pointing out that most of the characters who GET these redemption arcs are straight white males, who are inspired to become better people by the love of a good woman, which I don't need to tell anyone can have dire consequences when it's played out in a real world context. (Which in turn I think is why so many people are getting sick of this kind of story).

Edited February 4, 2020 by Ravenya003

[VCRTracking]

54 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

And the worst possible scenarios involve characters like Regina, an unrepentant rapist and murderer whose victims have to coddle and forgive her endless self-pitying bullshit until she's crowned Queen of Everything in the desperate hope she'll finally stop complaining about how hard her life has been to people whose suffering matches or even outweighs her own (and in many cases, was CAUSED by her). 

One of the reasons I stopped watching Once Upon a Time after a few seasons. Plus the SwanQueen shippers. Shipping Emma with the woman who caused her to grow up without her parents and turned her into a someone afraid to let people get close never made any damn sense to me.

Anyway I think most of the Reylo shippers upset now are just young, in their teens and 20s at the least. Inexperienced about relationships and naive about love, thinking it can change people. By the time their 40 they'll realize they'll at least see how unhealthy a ship it was and that a redeemed Ben giving up his life was the best end for him. At least I hope so. Can anybody confirm this? Are their any ships you now regret supporting when you were younger?

Edited February 4, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Zuleikha]

most of the characters who GET these redemption arcs are straight white males, who are inspired to become better people by the love of a good woman,

Kylo's redemption arc didn't come from the love of a good woman. Rey was not able to bring him back to the light. It came from the forgiveness and acceptance of his parents.

 

[starri]

If anyone saved Ben, it was Leia.  She gave of her life to remind him who he was.

[Ravenya003]

5 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Quote

most of the characters who GET these redemption arcs are straight white males, who are inspired to become better people by the love of a good woman,

 

Kylo's redemption arc didn't come from the love of a good woman. Rey was not able to bring him back to the light. It came from the forgiveness and acceptance of his parents.

Sorry, I didn't word this clearly - I meant in general terms this is how Redemption Arcs/Beauty and the Beast narratives play out, and in this instance a lot of shippers clearly thought this is the path Kylo/Rey would take. (Much like Zutara shippers assumed Katara would be the reason for Zuko's redemption in Avatar: The Last Airbender, and also reacted badly when it became clear this wasn't the case). 

But this story also doesn't fit the B&B mold in that Kylo eventually dies and Rey is free to live her life without him (and clearly isn't particularly devastated about that fact).